Doubt isn't the enemy of artistic greatness—it's the catalyst. Reuniting after two months apart, Ty and Nathan dive into the profound relationship between artistic excellence and uncertainty through Robert Hughes' provocative quote: "The greater the artist, the greater the doubt."
Ty shares his exciting news about being accepted to the Marfa Invitational after years of persistent applications, exemplifying how perseverance through doubt eventually bears fruit. We explore Charles Bukowski's observation that intelligence breeds uncertainty while ignorance fosters unearned confidence, and how this paradox shapes the creative journey.
The conversation weaves through profound insights from Anton Chekhov on asking questions rather than providing answers, Francis Bacon's challenge to "deepen the mystery," and Kurt Vonnegut's call to "jump off cliffs and develop wings on the way down." Drawing parallels between artistic exploration and literal mapmaking, we discuss how venturing into unknown creative territory requires tolerating discomfort while expanding our artistic capabilities.
Whether you're feeling stuck in your creative practice or questioning your direction, this episode offers a refreshing perspective: interesting failures lead to interesting successes. By redefining what success means and embracing experimentation as part of the journey, artists can transform doubt from a burden into a powerful tool for growth.
Ready to make your most interesting work? Join us for a conversation that might just change how you view uncertainty in your creative practice. As Van Gogh wisely advised, "I am always doing what I cannot do yet in order to learn how to do it."
Send us a message - we would love to hear from you!
Make sure to follow us on Instagram here:
@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
and we're back.
We haven't done this for awhile, ty, it's been a minute.
We have it.
Yeah, it's been a minute.
I was looking the last time weboth recorded a new episode.
I think was was about, uh, twomonths ago, was it two months
ago, was?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
it two months ago.
Yeah, yeah, it was like late,late January, yeah, that's right
.
Yeah, wow.
But I think we've had some good.
I think we've had some goodsolo episodes, though At least
I'm I'm a little biased I thinkwe've had some good.
I really enjoyed yourinterviews in Germany.
I thought those were absolutelyfantastic and I know we had a
lot of a lot of our artistfriends out there and listeners
(00:44):
to the podcast really seemed toenjoy those greatly, so those
were really fun.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
That was a good time.
It's good to be back on ourregular flow with the two of us.
We've got some fun quotes todissect.
I'm going to tease this, butwe've got some things to catch
up in the Ty Nathan Clarkuniverse as well.
But our first quote today.
Let's just jump right in.
The greater the artist, thegreater the doubt.
The greater the artist, thegreater the doubt.
(01:11):
The great art critic, robertHughes, said that that's a good
one, that's a meaty one.
We got plenty of supportingquotes we'll dive into as well.
But before we do that, though,yeah, bring us into your world.
You're in a new spot.
Let's talk about that.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, I'm in my garage I have the ultimate
professional podcast setup goingon right now.
If you're watching us on video,you can see that there's a lot.
I built a little wall to hidesome things behind me.
I'm physically sore.
I'm feeling my age more than Iever have after a really long
move.
So my wife and I bought a newhouse and we moved and in that
(01:47):
I'm building a studio in thebackyard.
So if you follow me on Instagram, you see me sharing my excited
stories about the, the framingand things going up in my studio
, and so I had to move out of myspace, which was I highly
underestimated the amount ofstuff I had in my studio, the
amount of time it was going totake me to move and the amount
(02:09):
of 25-foot U-Hauls it was goingto take to fill Right.
So luckily I had one of my bestbuddies come down, jeremy Combs
, and help me clean out studio,after I already moved two
20-foot U-Hauls worth ofpaintings into storage, and so
I'm not having storage in mystudio anymore.
So this is going to be reallyfun to just have a space that is
(02:30):
dedicated purely to making andnot making and storing.
So I have all my work inclimate-controlled storage and
new spaces going up, and I thinkthey're probably a month away
from completing it, so I'll beworking in the garage and
creating in the garage up untilthat point.
So, like in your previous space, remind me I was in my last
(02:51):
studio for three years, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So, and what percent of the stuff did you end up
throwing away versus carryingover?
I'm curious.
There was probably a dumpsterfull.
There was probably a dumpsterfull.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
There might've been a dumpster full of stuff.
I mean, I just where did allthis come from?
There's just a moment where Iwent where did all this?
Stuff come from.
I don't even get it Basically,Nathan, it was a massive job.
My back hurts.
I hurt my hip.
You know, I'm that old artistnow that's probably going to
have a cane in a few yearssimply from moving a massive
(03:25):
studio into a much smaller space.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
But I'm excited it's going to be really fun.
So I've been thinking aboutthis, ty.
I think the goal should be that, as our physical ability to do
the work completely solodeclines, our ability from a
career trajectory standpoint toacquire help in the form of
assistant or assistancehopefully will increase.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, I my fingers are like crossed that there's a
time and a moment when I canhire a studio assistant.
I told my nephew today, when wewere driving back from north
dallas to to waco and then hewas going to head to austin.
I told him man, I wish I hadthe ability to hire you to be my
assistant, because you couldbuild all my frames, stretch all
(04:10):
my canvases, move all my heavystuff, pick up my saw, do all
the things.
I don't have to bend overanymore, I can just paint on the
wall, I can stay straight upand then I'm fine.
No aches, no pains, I'm good.
As I'm saying that, I'mthinking of my dear friend
Frances Beattie, who is anincredible sculptor,
installation artist and artistwho, at her age, is more
(04:31):
physically in shape and adeptthan I am.
She is a definite inspirationto me to always be moving and
always be active, because she'sa champ.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
I love her.
She's amazing and does a lot ofphysical work too.
It's not.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Very physical work, it's not.
Yeah, she's not just painting,right?
She's folding, she's moving,she's hanging, she's up on
ladders, doing all kinds ofstuff.
I love her, love you, frances.
You're a badass.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
All right.
So we've got some otherexciting news that I'd love for
you to share as well, withsomething you've got coming up
in May here.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Yeah, and I think I think this really falls great
into our quote by Robert Hughes.
There I'm going to read it onemore time.
He says the greater the artist,the greater the doubt, and I
think we always have.
And this just isn't talkingabout the work.
Let's talk about a whole lot ofthings.
Doubt is involved in as anartist and I've been applying to
a specific invitational.
(05:25):
I'd probably apply, I don'tknow years, I don't know.
I lose track sometimes becausethere's certain things that I
get the email it's a residency,it's an invitational, it's
something and I apply every yearjust like clockwork.
It's apply, apply, apply, apply.
And this year I got acceptedinto the Marfa invitational,
which is something that I havereally personally put on a
(05:47):
pedestal.
Thank you Appreciate that.
It's been a I think I found outtwo weeks ago about two weeks
ago and I've been celebratinginside and outside ever since.
So it would have been very easyfor me to never apply again.
Right For us as artists, tolike you apply, you apply, you
(06:07):
apply, you apply and you alwaysget the letter.
Sorry, due to the number ofapplicants this year, you know
we went in another direction.
Please apply again, and it'seasy to get those and just go.
Man, I'm never going to get in,ever, never, never going to get
in.
So I'm just going to stop in,ever, never, never going to get
in, so I'm just going to stopapplying.
But that's, you know, that'spart of the great challenge for
(06:28):
us as artists is have thatconfidence where we absolutely
believe in ourselves.
To you know what?
I know how much better I am nowthan I was five years ago.
That I was four years ago, Iwas three or two years ago,
because I'm working my ass offand I'm growing and I'm trying
and I'm building.
I'm doing all these things.
I'm going to apply until I getin, and I've told some people
(06:51):
about specific things, and Marfawas one of those.
I don't care if I'm 80 yearsold and I finally get in,
because I've been applying forthe next 30 plus years and I
finally get in at 80, it willall be worth it.
Yeah, right, and I think I lovethe.
The greater the artist, thegreater the doubt.
Yeah, and even I mean that I'llend up right.
(07:12):
You just had a big show inGermany and all of a sudden you
come back home and there's thesethoughts in your head of like,
oh, did I do good enough?
Was I this?
Did I live up to what I thoughtor what they hoped?
Doubt starts right after yougot something.
So that quote is so, so, realand true, right, and it's just,
(07:37):
oh yeah.
And I have a quote I want toread by Charles Bukowski that I
love because I think he's sopungently funny at times and
we're already off script Alreadyoff script right, this is how
we do it.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
This is how we roll.
It should be just go off script.
This is exactly how we do it.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I'm down for whatever Bukowski had to say.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Please go.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Okay, so here's the quote from the wonderful
Bukowski.
He says the problem with theworld is that all of the
intelligent people are full ofdoubts, while the stupid ones
are full of confidence.
I love that because he's reallyhighlighting the fact that
intelligence and self-awarenessbring uncertainty to us.
And this is something that isdefinitely true of great artists
(08:15):
and we've talked about a lot ofthem in our podcasts who
they're extremely intelligent,but they have such
self-awareness and that at times, brings this uncertainty of am
I really doing this right?
Am I really doing the right?
Am I growing enough, am Itrying enough things?
But that it's that intelligenceof really thinking about those
(08:36):
things that causes you to havesome doubts, that make you go
further, that make you tryharder For sure, right, and I
think it's really easy.
Well, I know artists I'm notgoing to name names, although
sometimes I really want to whois just like there's just this
pompous arrogance about them,and I've never seen their work
(08:58):
grow in the last five years ears.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Well, I'll use a name that would.
That, to me, would for sure belike the, the um, the poster
child for for that.
I talked about this, actually,in the solo episode.
I did a few episodes back whereI talked about notes from the
woodshed by Jack Whitten, but Iused uh, sean Scully, as a sort
of emphasis of of that.
And you know what?
He'll never hear this.
Even if he did, he'd be like,yeah, fuck, yeah, that's me, so
it's always, it's all, but justthat extreme, like no, I'm
(09:31):
making the best work you've everseen.
And here it is, and if youdon't get it, then I can't help
you.
You know what I mean.
I'm paraphrasing here,obviously, but, yes, you know,
mutually exclusive.
But I think that the, the greatartist, who is also just
supremely confident, is the, theunicorn right, the, the
absolute exception to the rule,if we can call it that.
(09:54):
That we're talking about, youknow today for sure, and I think
that I'm going to throw anotherquote in that also was not on
the uh, as we continue todevolve from the uh playbook
that we had laid out.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Anton Chekhov we're evolving.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just getting better as we
go.
Perfect, let's go with that.
The role of the artist is toask questions, not answer them.
Anton Chekhov said that therole of the artist is to ask
questions, not answer them.
Yep, and I think that's a goodfor me.
Certainly I know that I'mmaking my best work when I'm
(10:29):
asking questions and I feel likesuccessful work for me is work
that encourages the viewer toask questions of themselves.
And just consider you knowthings maybe from a different
perspective or in a differentway than they would have
previously.
But greater artist, greaterdoubt.
(10:50):
I can only speak for one ofthose two things.
I know that I'm full of doubtas far as how great of an artist
.
That's not for us to decide.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, I was talking about that with my artists.
I can't believe I can'tremember if it was this last
Saturday or the Saturday beforeTalking about that with my
artists.
I can't believe I can'tremember if it was this last
Saturday or the Saturday before.
But we were talking about thatbecause in Art and Fear, you
know, one of the things theytalk about, that we also talked
about in the Art and Fearepisode, was that our life as
artists isn't frustratingbecause the passage is slow.
It's because we want it tohappen fast.
(11:20):
Say that again the artist's lifeis frustrating not because the
passage is slow, not because ittakes us time to get there.
It's because we imagine it tobe really fast.
Yeah, right, right, we think weshould be able to get there
tomorrow, but it actually isgoing to take you a couple of
years, right?
Or we think, oh, yeah, yeah, Ijust kind of nailed this here in
(11:42):
my work.
Yeah, so, oh, yeah, I'm aboutto do this.
And then you're like I'm not.
Why can't I do it?
I'm not there.
We're imagining these things tobe really quick, you know, and
I think that's when the artisttruly understands those things.
That's where doubt is going tobe, one of those things.
That's where the great doubt isgoing to come from, because can
(12:11):
I get there?
I don't know.
I'm going to keep trying, butcan I?
Speaker 1 (12:12):
not.
Well, I can't get there.
So let's just keep doing thispattern for the next 10 years,
right?
Yeah, well, that's the deathtrap, right, and that's the.
That's the easier, softer way,for sure, that's.
That's there's.
There's more comfort in justdoing a slightly different
iteration, you know, of what weknow to be, quote-unquote,
successful or or work.
But, yeah, we've.
We've discussed the downside ofthat many times in previous
(12:34):
episodes.
We don't need to go too too fardown that path today.
But I'm going to throw anotherquote in here, that's francis
bacon said the job of the artistis to always deepen the mystery
.
The job of the artist is alwaysto deepen the mystery.
Let me ask you, what do youthink that means?
When you read that, when youhear that deepen the mystery,
(12:55):
what does that mean to you?
Ty Nathan Clark?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Well, and you know that's an artist who was full of
a lot of doubt, right, francisBacon.
I just bought his journals awhile back and I started reading
them slowly, and he's full of alot of doubt with his work and
I think that's what pushed himso hard.
And I think, you know, thinkingabout mystery exists in what we
(13:23):
don't know, right, it's, it'sthis existence of something that
we don't know, but yet we'retrying to find it, we're trying
to find an answer for it, but wecan't.
But we know something exists,we know that there's something
there and wrapped up around that, um, and I think that when
we're able to embrace whatdoesn't truly exist, but we know
(13:45):
is there or not exist, whenwe're trying to really embrace
what we hope taking me but Iknow that I have that idea,
(14:08):
right that that our uncle, rickRubin, would always say you
can't just throw away thoselittle ideas there's something,
it's that it could be thatdivine spark, right.
That little teeny thing thatlights a huge fire, right.
That just takes you on thiscourse of something that could
be really, really big.
And I think by doing thatyou're making room, you're
(14:30):
creating more and more and moreroom in that mystery to bring
something out of it.
But if we're not deepening inthat, we're not diving into the
mystery and we're just kind ofchecking things off and going
through the motions, and I don'treally want to spend the time
that it's going to take to getthere.
Well, you're shrinking that,all that shrinking and shrinking
(14:51):
and shrieking, and you'retaking your room from this
massive mysterious space intothis little controlled substance
.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
The, uh, the aperture narrows yeah real quickly.
I just pulled up the definitionof mystery.
Yeah, something that isdifficult or impossible to
understand or explain.
That's, according to Oxford,something that is difficult or
you know it's there you know,it's there.
There's a sense of presence.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, there's.
You know that it's there, butit's like, ah, you know, and
that's part of that, like,that's part of that Imag
imagining something to happenfast.
You're just trying to get it,you're taking these steps to get
there.
You know it's there, I know Ican make this painting, I know I
can create this sculpture,build this installation out.
I know I can get there.
But when you don't have thetools to get there yet and
(15:41):
you've never done it yet, themystery is that idea that you
can.
Yeah, like, why would you evenbe thinking about it?
Why would it even be present?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Now comes the time.
It's the journey of the, it'sthe pursuit of finding an answer
.
That's interesting anyway,right, yeah, the other
definition, of course a novel,play or movie dealing with a
puzzling crime, especially amurder, right?
What's interesting about amystery as a genre of you know,
literature or murder?
Right, what's interesting abouta mystery as a genre of
literature or film?
Right, it's.
Oh, what happened here?
(16:13):
I want to get there, I want tofind out.
And it's all of the path, thelittle detours along the way,
all the dead ends that areinteresting in and of themselves
, that make for an interestingstory, that makes the ending, if
there is one in the context ofa narrative way, more
interesting.
(16:34):
Right, because we went on ajourney to get there.
It wasn't just, hey, just JoeFriday here's the facts,
professor Plum, with thecandlestick in the library.
Well, that's a pretty shortstory.
It's not that interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Well, and I love the next quote you have in here by
the physicist Brian Green, wherehe says exploring the unknown
requires tolerating uncertainty.
Right, and that's just whatwe're saying there.
It's like I'm about to embarkon some brand new ideas in my
work, like I'm trying to takethings that have existed for a
long time within my work, yeah,and I want to make them bigger,
(17:11):
I want to make them moreprevalent and more present,
because there's some really deepmeaning in these little moments
that have held deep meaning inmy work for years and I feel
like they're telling me theyneed more space, they need to
come out in a larger way, a moreprevalent way.
So now I'm in that unknown,yeah, right, and I have no idea.
(17:31):
I'm so uncertain on how to getthere, and I started playing
before I moved studios and I'mabout to start playing it again,
this plane, again this weekwith those ideas.
But I'm in full explorationmode here.
Yeah, I have to be completely.
I was just talking to one of myartists about this Saturday.
We have to be completely willingto explore the unknown and all
(17:54):
of its facets and tolerate theuncertainty.
And why do we tolerate?
Because we've been really goodat something else up until this
point.
Yeah, we've gotten into showswith this work.
We've gotten into invitationalswith this work, residencies,
whatever that is with the workwe just did.
We're certain about that.
(18:14):
Yeah, you have to tolerate thatuncertainty.
That means you have to livewith it.
You have to move with it everyday.
You got to go in the studio,come out of the studio, go into
the studio, come out of thestudio day in, day out, and
tolerate the fact that you don'tknow how it's going to look,
how you're going to get thereand how long it might take.
That's the exploration.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
That word tolerate, you know, to me I interpret that
as as acceptance of this, aspart of the path.
Right, there's, you know, whenyou think about the, the tall,
how much can I tolerate thisdiscomfort?
Well, part of it comes fromaccepting that discomfort, that
uncertainty, is just part of thejourney, right, as opposed to.
(18:55):
You know what's something elseuncomfortable?
Well, here it's 95 degrees.
Where you are in Texas, it's 45degrees where I am here in
Minnesota, right now, if eitherof us goes outside in the
clothes we're wearing right now,we're going to be probably a
little bit uncomfortable, right?
So there's, there's things thatwe can influence, right, we can
change, in my case, how much Ibundle up.
(19:16):
In your case, you know how muchyou, you, you layer down, right
, I mean, there's things that wecan, that we can influence to
help the environment that we arechoosing to put ourselves in,
to be less brutal or affect usless.
But it has to begin from aplace of accepting this is the
temperature of the environmentthat we're choosing to be in.
(19:39):
So what do we, what do we dowith that, as opposed to trying
to change, you know, the the,the reality of that situation,
right, those are very differentperspectives as opposed to.
You know what I mean.
So that's kind of I think aboutit a lot as, as a map, I think
we are trying to continuouslyexpand the territory that we're
(20:00):
exploring.
You know, in our work, and thegood news to me is that
everything starts from.
I mean, every, everyexploration starts from the, the
last known place on the map.
Right, like we don't, we don'tjust jump out of a, out of an
airplane, parachute into landcompletely unknown.
(20:20):
Right we're, we're startingfrom a place that that is known
and we're pushing the boundariesof the territory that that
we're exploring.
So, like, with what you'redescribing, you know and we've
talked about this offline aswell like you're beginning from
the threads that you've alreadystarted to cultivate in previous
work and deciding no, I want toreally lean into this more.
(20:43):
Right, so it is, it is on, itis uncertain, but it's not
completely unknown.
Right, there is a, a there's a,there's a seed of all.
Right, I know there's somethinghere.
I'm just going to go fartherdown this path and see where,
whatever the see, where thecoast is, or see where I fall
off the, you know, fall off theedge, right, well, I love that,
(21:05):
uh, I love that analogy and Iuse it a lot in the program too
and for myself.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
just explorers and map makers and the ancient
discoverers and and I I usedI've studied for a long time
when I was kind of in thatoutdoor adventure world and
going and hiking around theworld and backpacking and things
and studying the old climbers,the charted everest and the
mallories and the royal robinsand a lot of the swedes and the
(21:30):
finnish climbers from northerneurope, and then moving into
like more contemporary climbers,from doug tompkins that started
north face and yvonne chinardthat started patagonian, how
they charted all these climbsthat nobody'd ever done before
but also kind of invented modernclimbing technology while they
were doing it, you know, gettinglocal people to, you know
(21:51):
blacksmith things for them andcreating carabiners and
different ways to climb andchart these things, and that's
our.
That's what we're doing, likewe're going to a spot that has
been laid out through historybut all of a sudden we're about
to go onto a new trail, maybehave to make something that's
never existed before in land,that's never been walked on
(22:13):
before right, and all of asudden you're starting to chip
away into a new direction yeahand you're laying out that map.
I mean, that's what the ancientexplorers did is the last people
made it to here, but our goalis to make it even further.
So we got to where they went,and now I've got to go further.
I got to where Cy Twombly andAnthony Tappas went.
(22:34):
I got to where MarthaYoungworth went, and now Ty
Nathan Clark's going to take ita step further.
How do I do that?
Where am I going?
Well, it's all brand new.
I'm totally uncertain.
How far will I be able to getto go?
And then you start charting andgoing and moving and it's
completely uncertain.
You don't know what's on thatother side.
You only know what's been therebefore.
(22:54):
Yeah, but it's really easy.
There's a lot of explorers thatturned around and went Ooh gosh
, these cliffs are too tough, Ican't go further.
I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
There there is a measure of confidence and
self-assuredness that isrequired 100%, you know right.
I mean, if we take our jumpingoff quote, you know too far, we
would say the more doubt we have, the greater the artist we
could become.
There is a point at which weneed to muster up the courage to
(23:33):
take those steps forward intothe unknown, to explore where
we've not been before.
It's perfect.
It's almost like we plannedthis.
We actually didn't, but I lovethat you're talking about actual
exploration.
So this next quote I'm actuallygoing to call an audible here.
I'm actually going to play anaudio from a podcast I was
listening to, actually earliertoday.
This is by an author named AlexHutchinson and I'm going to
(23:53):
play an audio from.
I heard, I learned about himfrom a recent episode.
He was a guest on the Rich Rollpodcast, which is one of my
favorite favorite podcasts,super insightful, and he has a
lot, of, a lot of reallyeducated guests.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I'm going to play this audio and then we'll uh,
we'll talk about it we reallyare wired to explore in some
amorphous way, that that, thisfeeling that something might be
interesting over the hill, thatis a human feeling, that is
something you should respect inyourself and and recognize and
(24:29):
pursue, and that, moreover, it'sa useful feeling to follow.
It's one that leads to goodthings, both in a you're going
to get better restaurant mealseventually if you explore
because you're, you know, in atangible way but also, maybe
more importantly, in a way thatleads to feeling like you're
(24:50):
doing something meaningful, thatexploration is about accepting
uncertainty and risk and that bydoing that on a regular basis,
we end up doing difficult things, overcoming our doubts and
feeling like our pursuits havemeaning.
And so why does this matter?
(25:11):
In our current world, there area whole bunch of structural
forces that are making our liveseasier and more predictable,
that are eliminating uncertaintyand also eliminating even the
need to make decisions, thatwe're being fed entertainment
options, we're being told whatto do in a way that takes away
(25:34):
the active part of following ourown interests.
There's a bunch of differentreasons that that is not going
to be satisfying in thelong-term and may even be bad
for us in a sort of verytangible neuroscience way, but
certainly is a less satisfyingway to live.
So the sort of takeaway messageis um, listen to that inner
(25:57):
voice telling you to trysomething, uh, and be willing to
take take risks in pursuit ofsomething, because you never
know what you might find.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
So I love that.
I would encourage people to gocheck out that podcast episode
because it's really good.
He just wrote a new book thatI've already pre-ordered and I'm
not sure that the title that Ithink it is Wired to Explore.
I can fact check myself and wecan put it in the show notes.
But just that whole idea of thecuriosity, you know, something
we've talked about countlesstimes before and I'm sure we'll
(26:29):
revisit going forward as well,but just that curiosity of like
something might be interestingover that hill.
We don't know what it is, itmight not be where we end up, it
might not be where we want tostay, but it might be
interesting.
And just hearing him talk aboutthat being a useful feeling is
really, really interesting to me.
(26:51):
One of the things that is, Iguess, another layer to that, or
something that I hear in thattoo, is that you know he talks
about the continuously exposingourselves to the uncertainty
will, over time, make morecomfortable with that discomfort
.
It will expand our range oftolerance right For for
(27:14):
uncertainty and just accepting,like I think about if there's,
if there's anythingfundamentally different about
the way that I think about theprocess of making art now versus
even you know, a couple ofyears ago.
It's probably that I would saythat I'm I am much more, and I'm
curious your thoughts on thisas well, because you've been
doing this longer than I havebut I'm much more conditioned
(27:38):
for just being okay with sittingin like this.
This might not work.
I may very well end up, youknow, throwing away or, in my
case, just you know stashingaway, until I have to move my
studio Right, throwing somethingin a pile and being like, hey,
not today, maybe not ever, butdefinitely not today.
(27:59):
Right, yeah, and accepting thatthe value in that exploration
may not necessarily be for thecompletion of that particular
piece, it may not evencontribute anything useful for
that particular body of work,but it's still expanding the
territory of my understanding ofwhat I am trying to do and
(28:22):
giving me more tools with whichto do it.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
You know, moving my studio was such an eye-opener to
me because there was so muchold work that I was uncovering,
right.
It's like you're going back onthe trail on your way out and
you're going oh gosh, I rememberwe turned left and we shouldn't
at that point, you know.
And so we went back and chartedthis way and I mean there are
some pieces that I pulled outand was like, oh, I remember
(28:50):
that, what a horrible piece,what an absolutely terrible
thing.
And then I went.
But I do remember if I hadn'thave done that and stuck with it
and kept moving through it andstuck with it and kept moving
through it, I would not havefigured out X.
Right, I had to make thatabsolutely atrocious, shitty
(29:14):
thing to get to X.
Mm-hmm, you know, and I love ohgosh, it's A Smooth Sea Never
Made a Skilled Sailor byFranklin D Roosevelt.
Say that again A Smooth SeaNever Made a Skilled Sailor,
right.
If the ocean is A smooth seanever made a skilled sailor
Right.
If the ocean is perfectlysmooth and you're out there
sailing, you're just going to gostraight and you're going to
get to your point, right.
(29:35):
But if something comes upthat's hard to get through, that
sailor is not going to be ableto make it.
Yeah, and I think us as artists,like we're constantly hitting
storms out on the water Likeit's a constant storm.
It's like all of a sudden, wefeel like the clouds cleared,
the sky is blue and we're ableto just lay back on that
(29:58):
sailboat and just relax and thenext thing you know the second,
you, you know the second youkick your shoes off and you grab
that glass of wine.
The clouds are back and thestorms hit again, and there you
are again on a rough sea.
I mean, that's, you know,that's the artist's life.
It's every one of you that'slistening is going right now.
Yeah, absolutely, and maybesome of the listeners, I've
(30:19):
never had the blue sky.
I'm still waiting for it.
Sure, nathan, when does thatblue sky come?
It does come if you're patientand you realize this is slow and
it's going to take some time.
And I think you know Miles.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Davis is one of my favorite musicians in history.
I've got a number of miles fora second you gave me.
You reminded me of somethinginteresting I don't think I've
mentioned in the podcast before.
We can fact check this later.
I'm not sure if it's true or not, but I have heard that the
biggest difference between theway that cattle and bison
respond to a storm I think I'mpretty sure this is true, let's
just go with it, let's go withit Is that when cattle livestock
(30:55):
, when they encounter bad orinclement weather, they go the
opposite direction.
They try to outrun the storm,which, of course, is impossible,
which means they actually endup going the same direction as
the storm and they spend moretime in it.
Bison buffalo do the oppositewhen they encounter bad weather.
(31:16):
They're just their naturalinstincts tell them we go, we go
into the storm, we move towardsthe storm, which means they
naturally spend less time inthat inclement weather.
And so, assuming that's true,it makes a lot of sense, it
makes for a good storyregardless.
But it's really interesting inthat like, okay, well, if you
(31:39):
haven't experienced that bluesky or if we haven't experienced
it recently, just rememberingthat leaning into the discomfort
is likely the best way to goright, because let's bring it
back to art.
What's the alternative?
What's the equivalent of, youknow, being a big dumb cow in
the art space?
(31:59):
Well, it would be.
Oh, let me just retreat back towhat I know and just kind of do
more of that, because I thinkthat that's at least there's
some there's, there's thepromise of the false hope.
I would argue, we would argue ofcomfort there, which is only
going to delay actually gettingthrough.
(32:20):
You know the shit to get to the, the, the goal to get to earn,
you know, the, the earn thesummit, right, like, I haven't
done a lot of, I've done a lotof hiking.
I've not done a lot of likeproper climbing, you know, but
even if you just think aboutlike a, a good hike where you're
going to go get to a peak, Imean there's plenty parts of of
most especially a long hikewhere it's just kind of drudgery
(32:41):
, it's not all beautiful scenery, you know, along the way some
of it's pretty, you know nasty,and you're just like all right,
I just, I believe I've not beento this peak before, but I'm
following a trail that exists,or following my compass.
I can see it, I know it's upthere.
So just continue to pushthrough um with the belief that
(33:02):
there is something better on theother side of that hill.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah Well, in that moment I mean I did this hiking
in Patagonia years ago,backpacking and, man, we were
beat up on the trail.
I mean it was a good.
We were five and a half hoursin a switchbacks with, you know,
50 pound packs on our backs andjust like I mean physically
crying, some of us like it was abeating.
I remember my buddy, chris andI look at each other and going,
(33:28):
dude, I'm hurting.
And then out of the cloudscomes fitzroy just one of the
most majestic peaks in theentire world.
Coming through the trail it waskind of cloudy, you can't see
and everything disappears.
In that moment you don't feel apain, you forget you have a
pack, you don't know what'sgoing on, the tears are gone and
you're just in awe and you'rejust staring at that thing and
(33:51):
you're just going, wow, what?
Oh, my goodness, you know whatI mean and so, oh, I mean that's
what this is about.
This is why we spend so muchtime in the drudgery and in the
moments of like I can't figurethis out and continuing that
(34:11):
battle and that battle like thebison, going straight through
the storm, knowing that thestorm is going to pass you yes,
it's going to go right past andyou're going to be right back
into the green fields feastingall day on the tall grass.
You know, in South Dakota,wherever you know, they're
roaming, and I knew I lovedbison for a reason.
(34:31):
That's why and I think as I wasjumping into Miles Davis, one
of my favorite musicians inhistory as a big jazz person he
has a quote where he says don'tfear mistakes.
There are none.
I mean, this is somebody whowas doing things with the
trumpet that people weren'tdoing and didn't do.
(34:51):
He was taking playing a trumpetto an entire new level.
And then he took playing atrumpet to an entire new level
by adding other bandmates inthat were all competing and
doing different things andcreating art out of it.
And doing different things andcreating art out of it.
(35:12):
And I think that the beauty inthat is if you can recognize
that there's always discomfortand failure, no matter what.
It's going to be uncomfortable,there's going to be discomfort,
but that is the very thing thatleads to breakthroughs.
Yeah, yeah, it's the very thing.
You and I both have had so manymoments in the studio where we
can not figure out what's in ourhead.
(35:32):
Yep, and we're trying, we'retrying.
Well, that material didn't workwith that material.
Well, that didn't.
Well, that definitely didn'tsay what I'm trying to say.
That doesn't.
And through all the failure,one tiny little thing because
you stuck through it gives youthe answer yes, everything we're
doing should be full ofquestions.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
It's worth acknowledging, too, that like it
.
Sorry to cut you off.
Um, no, it's fine, I'm not thatsorry, I just felt like I
should say it Um it's really notfine, but go ahead.
No, it it.
It doesn't make it hurt anyless, but it does give the hurt.
It does give the discomfortpurpose.
Right, it's purposefuldiscomfort, it's discomfort with
(36:17):
meaning, you know, and that's,I think, probably where keeping
a vision of what we are workingtowards, even if it is just a
general sense of what we hope itfeels like.
Or to your example just now,holding on to those aha moments
(36:37):
as little, little data points,little parts on the map that we
can hold on to and say, allright, I have, I have hurt this
way before and ultimately, atsome point maybe not today,
maybe not tomorrow, but at somepoint it has taken me to a place
worth getting to right.
(36:58):
It gives the suffering, thediscomfort, it gives it purpose
and that makes it much morebearable, you know, to endure
while it's happening.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yeah, well, I think that's a good, that's a really
good segue into our KurtVonnegut quote that we have here
at one of my favorite authorsand I think, maybe top 10
wittiest people to ever gracethe planet like just wit and
wisdom combination.
I don't know if anybody holds acandle to Kurt Vonnegut the guy
(37:29):
is just brilliant.
But he says we have tocontinually be jumping off
cliffs and developing our wingson the way down.
I mean that's pretty cool.
I mean that saying itself likegrowth does not come from
playing it safe.
Right, I'm sorry it doesn't.
(37:50):
I push this in my programconstantly.
You will not grow if you're notexperimenting and you're not
taking massive risks, even intoareas you don't understand yet,
like this is where evolutioncomes from.
This is where the growth inyour evolution comes from.
This is where the growth inyour it it takes those risks
(38:10):
that feel uncomfortable to grow.
It really does.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
It's almost impossible to know, in many
cases, flat out impossible toknow what the what the solution
will be until we're clear aboutwhat the problem is.
We're trying to solve for is inthe first place, right, you
know.
So if the alternative issitting on the cliff and trying
(38:34):
to design, you know the perfectwings.
I mean maybe, but most likelywe're going to be much more
qualified, we'll have much moreinformation to work with as we
go right, once we betterunderstand what the challenges
or obstacles even are, right, inother words, there's really no.
(38:58):
Even if we were to try to solvefor every potential eventuality
in advance.
I mean good luck, right,especially in this, this crazy,
you know, art game that we'replaying here.
There's, there's no such thing.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Yeah, I mean, I've had so many questions with
artists who in my program andnot in the program, just artists
that I know and meet, who,let's say, somebody has been
painting acrylic their wholelife and they want to try oils.
But yet they said they wantedto try oils four years ago and
they still haven't tried oils.
Right, it's like because you'remaking something with something
that you're comfortable with,you're good at, you know you can
(39:33):
knock out these paintingswhatever, and now you're going
to completely change into a newmedium.
Now you have to learn again.
I think that's the fear a lotof times is well, I don't want
to feel like a beginner again.
I don't want my work to lookimmature again.
If I've already been mature inthis area with you know what I'm
painting here.
And it's like, well, well,you're never going to get to
(39:53):
maybe what's really in your headIf you don't really follow that
thing.
Jump off the cliff and go.
Oh, this is what the wind feelslike at this level.
Oh, this is what happens when Iput my arms out here.
This is okay.
Now I know what I need to dowith wings.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Now I know how to add these things.
I'm sure it's a combination ofthe two, but do you, in the
scenario you just described, doyou think it's more a fear of um
the work not looking as matureas what that person has done
previously, or do you think it'smore a fear of the feeling of
not knowing what they're doing?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah, it's the fear of it's uncertainty, it's the
fear of jumping into somethingyou don't know how to do yet.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Right, but do you think?
For most people it's, it's thefear of the, the, the result, or
fear of the feeling in theprocess, the feeling in the
process, the feeling in theprocess.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
You already know how hard it is.
Yeah, we already know that.
We already know how difficultis to make what we're good at,
right to use the materials thatwe've mastered.
Let's put it that way.
We already know how long it'staken, how hard it was.
So it's like adding and I thinkI've really tried to get into.
I told I was telling one of myartists recently.
I said it took me a while toget here and she's had some
(41:13):
success, like some really greatsuccess, um, in Mexico city and
in Miami and at fairs sellingwork and her work does really
well.
But she wants to grow.
Yeah, like she's.
Like I know I want to get tothe next level and that next
level for her is museums.
That's the next level for her.
She's had success in thegallery world.
She's done these things.
(41:34):
She's got a great collectorbase, great dealers and
galleries.
The next level is the museums.
She wants to be recognized.
I get it Heck, yeah, and Ithink she should be.
But then she knows she also hasto grow in her works.
Got to take this other step,this extra step, and we talked
about this just last week howdifficult it is to accept
(41:56):
failing and continuing andliving amongst the failure of
the experiments to get to theother side.
Yeah, because even when she'dgo into trying, you know, we, I,
we go back and forth.
She's like, oh, I hated it, itdidn't work, uh, you know.
And it's like, yeah, you needto accept that and go.
Man, I'm so lucky and blessedthat I get to fail every day in
(42:18):
the studio.
Right, that's, that's my.
I've had to shift my mindsetfrom ultimate drive of success
to go no to ultimate.
I'm blessed to be able to screwaround and fail in order to get
to where I really want to go inmy work.
So the days that are horrible,I'm just going.
(42:40):
Man, I'm so lucky and soblessed that I actually get to
do this and then come back andhave that same mentality the
next day.
Now, I'm not saying thathappens all the times.
There's definite days where I'mlike this sucks, screw this, I
don't want to do this anymore.
This is driving me crazy, butyou get.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
You get what I'm saying.
I do.
I mean, I think, as you'retalking, I'm thinking you know
there's there's so much value injust acknowledging that we do
get to define and andcontinuously redefine what our
definition of success is.
I'm using air quotes here forthose of you who are just
listening.
You know, uh, and what you justdescribed was you making a
(43:23):
conscious choice to move yourown goalposts and say, all right
, I had previously been livingover here where I was viewing
the feeling of success as a andI'm now recalibrating my thought
process to find success, tofind a feeling of let's use a
better word fulfillment andpurpose from this thing over
(43:47):
here that you've identified asbeing the thing that's going to
take you where you ultimatelywant to go, which is somewhere
you've not yet been.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Yep, I mean, I had to do that for my own personality,
my own character, right, I'm afour.
You know I'm a feeler, you know.
So, on the Enneagram scale, I'ma four and it's like I like sad
things.
I can easily, you know, getsucked into my own sadness.
Right, I could sit there andhave Jeff Buckley or Elliot
(44:18):
Smith or you know the Smiths orthe cure on all day long and
just, you know, be happy,soaking in that, right, like
that's just me.
That's how I'm made up.
I mean, I'm a very joyfulperson but I'm a very emotional
person.
So I know what I have to do,because I know what my
resistance is.
I have 100% know what myresistance is, and that will,
(44:41):
that'll, shut me down easily.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
I'm sorry I'm laughing.
You just reminded me I love youlaughing at my sadness.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Your sadness is hilarious and I don't say that
as like I'm a sad person, I sayI love dark movies, I love
depressing film, I love sadness,those things I just I can bask
in them and I love them, but inthe studio they can be dangerous
for an artist.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
One of my great joys as a father has been sharing my
love of sad music with Ella,with our youngest, who's now 16.
So I sent her this meme.
You can throw it on the video.
It's a meme of a dog holding aguitar and it says head in the
(45:28):
nineties I'm sad.
Parentheses guitar solo radio.
Head in the aughts I'm sad.
Beep, beep, boop, boop in frontof a keyboard.
It's visual, whatever, it'sfunny.
So this is.
This is.
We've talked about radio before.
Since we're both massive fans,they've announced, or there's
(45:48):
there.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
There's rumors that they're going to be going on
tour, right?
Speaker 1 (45:49):
And so they filed a new LLC last week.
It's happening.
So, ellen, I have a planned, atrip plan to New York.
She's really into theater andum and and Broadway and that
kind of thing, and so we'regoing to do a dad auto trip to
to New York this upcoming summerand we're already looking at
what shows we're going to go to,where we're going to stay.
And so she came to me the otherday she goes, dad, what if,
instead of New York, we go seeradio ed?
(46:09):
And I'm like, sweetie, I wantto go where you want to go, but
you just melted my heart.
I will fly you, I will fly uswherever we need to go to see
what could very well be their,uh, their, their last tour.
But anyway, you talking about,so she didn't want to go see, uh
(46:33):
, she didn't want to go.
Listen to your sad dad rockbandline.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
She, she loves, she loves the national as well.
Yeah, that was one of myfavorite comments she made to
you, though which one?
The sad dad rock.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, she called it yeah, that's one of
their things, but, yeah, it's uh, no, I'm with you there and I
think that you know there'ssomething to be said for for
music and you know, reallyidentifying what type yeah,
let's talk about it what type ofmusic really energizes and
inspires us in different wayswhen we're in these different
(47:02):
sort of places and phases.
Right, I mean, I think we'renaturally inclined to want to
listen to music that eithermatches the mood or the energy
that we're in, or try to findsomething that's going to get us
into a place, you know, that'smore consistent with where we'd
like to be, you know, in thatmoment.
But, but being in tune to thetypes of inputs, whether it's
(47:23):
music or other things that weare allowing to influence us, is
, um, is really, reallyimportant.
Like you know, for me, if I'mtrying to make bold, you know,
quick moves without just boom,boom, boom, you know the type of
music that I listened to is isvery different, right, like
that's what I'm going to listento.
I'm going to, you know, morehard techno or hip hop or
(47:46):
something that's that's a bitmore, whatever energetic or or
taps into something primal in methat listened to, you know,
whatever, the national, forexample uh, you know, might not,
but there's a purpose for allof it, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Bringing us back around.
We did.
We're not doing a great job ofjust going finding these
tangents that are just so faroff in the in the universe.
I love it.
We are doing a great job.
Let's just do it.
I think we're doing a reallygood job and we got to talk
about her.
Some of our favorite music inthe mix of it, which is
something we do normally.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Hey have you heard of these guys?
Have you heard her yet?
Listen to her album um.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
So which I'm so addicted to Fontaine's DC right
now, it's absolutely insane.
That's just a drop for forFontaine's Um.
Okay, next quote here.
I do like this, cause we kindof we were about to get there
and then we jumped into someother stuff.
But just talking about this isa great quote by Edward Albee
and he says if you're willing tofail interestingly, says if
(48:52):
you're willing to failinterestingly, you tend to
succeed Interestingly.
Yep, I like that, I love that.
I'd never.
I'd never seen that quotebefore, but I really liked that.
And I think as artists I mean,it's a lot easier for us to fill
that gap than anyone outside ofthe arts.
But I love like don't justsettle.
If it feels odd, if it feelsweird or crazy or like what in
the world, just try it, go forit, go do it.
(49:14):
If something feels so out ofthe ordinary for you, go ahead
and put it down on canvas, putit into clay, put it, just go
for it.
And I think that's really kindof what he's saying is it's easy
for us to just fail, normalCause sometimes we get that, we
(49:35):
get that idea right, we get thatseed.
That just seems really way offbase.
Yeah, it's something that'slike so new Maybe it's so
different that it just kind ofadmit yeah, I don't really want
to even go there.
I'm not sure why.
I would say, go try it, becauseyou may fail in that thing, but
(49:58):
it might really lead tosomething that comes out of it
that takes you in a whole newdirection.
And I was telling, I think itwas.
I think it was.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
Gianna.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Is it Gianna?
The other day, our friendGianna Tassone, we were talking
just about work and moments ofbeing stale and doing things.
And I think it was Gianna and Isaid go do something totally
different.
Just go do something sodifferent that you're not
normally doing.
I don't know what that is.
Go paint landscapes for a week,go sketch things, go do
(50:29):
something, go sculpt, dosomething that's outside of what
you've been painting, that's sodifferent Because it may lead
you to a completely newterritory within your work.
And I heard Jerry Salt say thatyears ago.
He said when was the last time,abstract artists, that you sat
in your studio and just sketchedyour studio?
When's the last time yousketched?
(50:52):
When's the last time you did astill life?
And so after I don't know if itwas a podcast, I heard him say
it in or whatever.
So then I did it that day.
I got out pastels, got out somecolor pencils and I sketched my
whole studio and I set up astill life and I did it.
It felt amazing.
It was like it was clearingspace in me because I was so
(51:16):
focused on X, so into it, sothat it completely separated my
mind, my artist mind, in a waythat just needed to be
whitewashed a little bit, and itkind of just brought me back.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
So that would be a great example of, I think you
know, pushing the territory in acompletely different direction,
maybe a completely oppositedirection or just different than
the direction that we thinkwe're supposed to be going.
But that information, whenreapplied to whatever the thing
is, will be useful, right?
I mean I think about, if theyou said fail normal, I was
(51:55):
going to say fail boring,boringly, Interestingly, how
would you say that?
Whatever boringly, let's gowith that word.
But what is what?
Would failing in a boring way,in a normal way, you know, look
like right, it would be failingdoing the thing that we've
already been doing right.
That's not an interestingfailure, that's just a normal,
(52:19):
you know, a normal one.
But you know, when we pursuethose interesting failures, we
are absolutely expanding theterritory and and we are
acquiring new information that,when applied to the other things
, will will give us a freshperspective.
You know, I'm a good examplewould be I'm I'm carving wood
(52:39):
again for the first time in acouple of years.
You know, I mean, I did a wholebody of work that was almost
primarily that and almost almostexclusively set it aside, you
know, for for quite a while.
And I just I did a whole bodyof work that was almost
primarily that and almostexclusively set it aside for
quite a while, and I've had thisurge, this pull, to just do it
again.
Yeah, and wouldn't, you know it?
Everything that I've done sincethen, in the time that I've
completely set it aside, isabsolutely informing the way
(53:03):
that I'm approaching it now.
And that's all territory.
Those are all tools that Iwouldn't have access to, not
actual tools, although I'veacquired some of those as well,
but ways of thinking about thework, ways of approaching it
that I wouldn't have if I hadjust continued down.
You know that path, withouttaking all of the different, you
(53:25):
know interesting detours andmany interesting failures, you
know along the way.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
I mean I would say in that a little bit with the new
work that I'm about to do,because I've worked with fibers
for a long time.
I've done a lot of differentthings with fibers.
I've been sewing since I was achild, when my mom taught me to
sew when I was a kid and I lovedsewing and doing things.
So I've always had little bitsof sewing and thread and things
in my work.
But right now, taking them tothe next level, how do I do that
(53:56):
?
What do I do?
How do I do it?
Well, I'm going to get reallydamn interesting and I'm going
to fail.
I mean, I am failingInterestingly.
I mean some of these things I'mdoing, I'm just like what the
heck is that it's?
I got to learn, I got torelearn some things.
Right, I've got to teach myselfsome new things and I'm trying
to do some of those thingsbackwards.
(54:17):
Yeah, I'm trying to do it in away that it's not supposed to be
done, because I like the wayit's.
That.
That's the quote here it is.
This is the the quote.
If you're willing to fail,interestingly, you tend to
succeed.
Interestingly, I'm trying to dosomething the opposite way.
It's actually supposed to bedone physically and I feel like
(54:40):
it's coming out more interestingdoing it that way than it is
doing it the regular way.
Sure, right, right, and it's,but it's looks like shit right
now and it's like, but there'sthese moments that I'm on oh,
it's coming, it's going to come.
I've done this enough.
I've experimented enough to beconfident that something will
come of all the time spent.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
And because you've changed your definition of what
success is, you havemanufactured for yourself a
positive feedback loop, yeah, towhere the things that don't
look the way that you want themto, or look good now, are still
like.
You're still getting thatpositive feedback of like no,
this is taking me somewhere,right, because it has before and
(55:27):
will again.
Yep, yeah, that's huge.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
And that's what this, this, that's what this about,
this is all about, and this,this is what we want to
encourage all of you artists outthere that are listening is,
you know, we've had some artistssend us some pretty fun
messages over the last fewmonths that, uh, your, your
(55:51):
talks in in Germany really gaveconfidence to some artists who
were really kind of strugglingwith trying things and doing
things and and just theirexcitement to go.
Man, you really gave me thatconfidence to try these new
things in the studio and to beable to fail to get to where I
want to go and you know, that'swhy we're talking about these
things is we're in it with you,you're in it with us and, man,
if there's more of us willing tofail, interestingly, I just
(56:13):
think there's going to be someincredible work that starts to
explode out there.
If we keep exploring andtolerating uncertainty, the
growth in those of you that aredoing that is going to be so fun
to watch, and we have artiststhat, because of the podcast,
we've gotten to know and wewatch and we follow in our own
(56:33):
accounts on Instagram and it'sfun to see the breakthroughs.
Yeah, you can see them.
Oh, yeah, if you, if you followart enough and you watch
artists closely, you can see thebreakthroughs.
Yes, and that is so fun to seeduring your contempt, during our
contemporary culture artists,that we're doing things with an
(56:55):
artist that we're working withand watching and seeing them
come to those moments of theydid it.
Yeah, wow, yeah.
They found that breakthroughand, man, that work looks
amazing.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
Yeah, you're making me, you're, you're, you're
reminding me of the, the, theutility of, you know, failing
recklessly in the pursuit of, ofgoing places.
That, and we don't need to sayI've never, never been explored
before.
But certainly in terms of, ifthe goal is to set yourself
(57:30):
apart, that's a, that's a way togo, you know for sure.
You know, like you and I bothhave very ambitious, you know
long-term goals that we wouldn'tnecessarily share on the
podcast here, but we've, we'veboth got some some pretty
ambitious and and audacious.
You know long-term goals, and soI know, for both of us, uh,
(57:51):
what we're trying to accomplishcertainly falls in line with
yeah, how, how far can this bepushed and how much new
territory can we not justexplore but over time,
successfully, you know,communicate in the finished work
?
That's kind of the ultimategoal, right?
Because, again, if thealternative, if the alternative
(58:12):
is is a just boring, you knowregular failures, you're, you're
probably on a path that that,um, many, many, many others were
and still are on, which, again,there's nothing wrong with that
, but it is more difficult,right, to really distinguish
yourself If you're playing thesame game as so many others are.
(58:34):
Did I say that right?
I can rephrase that for me in away that's not quite so judgy.
Speaker 2 (58:40):
No, I don't think it's judgy.
I mean, you know me, I'm prettydamn judgy, I mean we're
artists, we're we're judgingpeople as artists.
So I think it's be you, yeah,don't be somebody else, right,
like, I think that's.
I think that's how we get tothose ambitious goals by really,
really spending time finding usin the work and being us
(59:03):
completely, because the secondwe start being somebody else,
it's going to slow that timelinedown and we're going to have to
wrap up here, because they'renow working on the gate right
outside of our garage door andso that's going to get really
loud.
They're coming for you.
Sorry, everybody.
Speaker 1 (59:19):
I think it's a good wrapping up.
It's not that we have beengoing an hour yeah we did it
again.
This will be a quick little 30minute episode.
Here we are an hour in, I'vegot.
Speaker 2 (59:27):
I've got cash barking at me in the door to the left
going.
You've been gone for a week.
Why are you not inside playingwith me?
And now I've got the gate crewout working outside.
Speaker 1 (59:37):
So we got three quotes to choose from Ty.
You decide which is going to beour closer, just because I feel
compelled to, like you know youknow, I really liked that Van
Gogh quote a lot Yep, um.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
And if you have not watched at eternity's gate, with
uh William Defoe playing VanGogh, uh, directed by Julian
Schnabel, I highly suggest youwatch it tomorrow, tonight when
you listen to this.
But the quote says I am alwaysdoing what I cannot do yet in
(01:00:10):
order to learn how to do it, andI think that really just sums
up everything we've talked abouttoday.
So I love that quote Always beworking on what you can't do yet
in order to learn how to do it.
Just be bold.
Boldness is an act of genius.
It's one of my favorite quotes.
I forget what book that's from,but I love that quote Boldness
is an act of genius.
Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
I said one more.
We're going to do one more, onemore, just because it pairs so
well with that Maya Angelouquote do the best you can until
you know better.
Then, when you know better, dobetter.
I love that, just the elegantsimplicity and wisdom in that.
Do the best you can until youknow better.
Then, when you know better, dobetter.
Yeah Right, do the best we canwith what we have in front of us
(01:00:48):
, and that will lead us toknowing better and, ultimately,
doing better.
Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Absolutely Love it.
Go, make some art everybody.
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
Go make some art.
Thanks for joining us.
We'll be back next week or in acouple of weeks with another
episode of Just Make art.
Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
Bye.
and we're back.
We haven't done this for awhile, ty, it's been a minute.
We have it.
Yeah, it's been a minute.
I was looking the last time weboth recorded a new episode.
I think was was about, uh, twomonths ago, was it two months
ago, was?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
it two months ago.
Yeah, yeah, it was like late,late January, yeah, that's right
.
Yeah, wow.
But I think we've had some good.
I think we've had some goodsolo episodes, though At least
I'm I'm a little biased I thinkwe've had some good.
I really enjoyed yourinterviews in Germany.
I thought those were absolutelyfantastic and I know we had a
lot of a lot of our artistfriends out there and listeners
(00:44):
to the podcast really seemed toenjoy those greatly, so those
were really fun.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
That was a good time.
It's good to be back on ourregular flow with the two of us.
We've got some fun quotes todissect.
I'm going to tease this, butwe've got some things to catch
up in the Ty Nathan Clarkuniverse as well.
But our first quote today.
Let's just jump right in.
The greater the artist, thegreater the doubt.
The greater the artist, thegreater the doubt.
(01:11):
The great art critic, robertHughes, said that that's a good
one, that's a meaty one.
We got plenty of supportingquotes we'll dive into as well.
But before we do that, though,yeah, bring us into your world.
You're in a new spot.
Let's talk about that.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, I'm in my garage I have the ultimate
professional podcast setup goingon right now.
If you're watching us on video,you can see that there's a lot.
I built a little wall to hidesome things behind me.
I'm physically sore.
I'm feeling my age more than Iever have after a really long
move.
So my wife and I bought a newhouse and we moved and in that
(01:47):
I'm building a studio in thebackyard.
So if you follow me on Instagram, you see me sharing my excited
stories about the, the framingand things going up in my studio
, and so I had to move out of myspace, which was I highly
underestimated the amount ofstuff I had in my studio, the
amount of time it was going totake me to move and the amount
(02:09):
of 25-foot U-Hauls it was goingto take to fill Right.
So luckily I had one of my bestbuddies come down, jeremy Combs
, and help me clean out studio,after I already moved two
20-foot U-Hauls worth ofpaintings into storage, and so
I'm not having storage in mystudio anymore.
So this is going to be reallyfun to just have a space that is
(02:30):
dedicated purely to making andnot making and storing.
So I have all my work inclimate-controlled storage and
new spaces going up, and I thinkthey're probably a month away
from completing it, so I'll beworking in the garage and
creating in the garage up untilthat point.
So, like in your previous space, remind me I was in my last
(02:51):
studio for three years, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So, and what percent of the stuff did you end up
throwing away versus carryingover?
I'm curious.
There was probably a dumpsterfull.
There was probably a dumpsterfull.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
There might've been a dumpster full of stuff.
I mean, I just where did allthis come from?
There's just a moment where Iwent where did all this?
Stuff come from.
I don't even get it Basically,Nathan, it was a massive job.
My back hurts.
I hurt my hip.
You know, I'm that old artistnow that's probably going to
have a cane in a few yearssimply from moving a massive
(03:25):
studio into a much smaller space.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
But I'm excited it's going to be really fun.
So I've been thinking aboutthis, ty.
I think the goal should be that, as our physical ability to do
the work completely solodeclines, our ability from a
career trajectory standpoint toacquire help in the form of
assistant or assistancehopefully will increase.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, I my fingers are like crossed that there's a
time and a moment when I canhire a studio assistant.
I told my nephew today, when wewere driving back from north
dallas to to waco and then hewas going to head to austin.
I told him man, I wish I hadthe ability to hire you to be my
assistant, because you couldbuild all my frames, stretch all
(04:10):
my canvases, move all my heavystuff, pick up my saw, do all
the things.
I don't have to bend overanymore, I can just paint on the
wall, I can stay straight upand then I'm fine.
No aches, no pains, I'm good.
As I'm saying that, I'mthinking of my dear friend
Frances Beattie, who is anincredible sculptor,
installation artist and artistwho, at her age, is more
(04:31):
physically in shape and adeptthan I am.
She is a definite inspirationto me to always be moving and
always be active, because she'sa champ.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
I love her.
She's amazing and does a lot ofphysical work too.
It's not.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Very physical work, it's not.
Yeah, she's not just painting,right?
She's folding, she's moving,she's hanging, she's up on
ladders, doing all kinds ofstuff.
I love her, love you, frances.
You're a badass.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
All right.
So we've got some otherexciting news that I'd love for
you to share as well, withsomething you've got coming up
in May here.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Yeah, and I think I think this really falls great
into our quote by Robert Hughes.
There I'm going to read it onemore time.
He says the greater the artist,the greater the doubt, and I
think we always have.
And this just isn't talkingabout the work.
Let's talk about a whole lot ofthings.
Doubt is involved in as anartist and I've been applying to
a specific invitational.
(05:25):
I'd probably apply, I don'tknow years, I don't know.
I lose track sometimes becausethere's certain things that I
get the email it's a residency,it's an invitational, it's
something and I apply every yearjust like clockwork.
It's apply, apply, apply, apply.
And this year I got acceptedinto the Marfa invitational,
which is something that I havereally personally put on a
(05:47):
pedestal.
Thank you Appreciate that.
It's been a I think I found outtwo weeks ago about two weeks
ago and I've been celebratinginside and outside ever since.
So it would have been very easyfor me to never apply again.
Right For us as artists, tolike you apply, you apply, you
(06:07):
apply, you apply and you alwaysget the letter.
Sorry, due to the number ofapplicants this year, you know
we went in another direction.
Please apply again, and it'seasy to get those and just go.
Man, I'm never going to get in,ever, never, never going to get
in.
So I'm just going to stop in,ever, never, never going to get
in, so I'm just going to stopapplying.
But that's, you know, that'spart of the great challenge for
(06:28):
us as artists is have thatconfidence where we absolutely
believe in ourselves.
To you know what?
I know how much better I am nowthan I was five years ago.
That I was four years ago, Iwas three or two years ago,
because I'm working my ass offand I'm growing and I'm trying
and I'm building.
I'm doing all these things.
I'm going to apply until I getin, and I've told some people
(06:51):
about specific things, and Marfawas one of those.
I don't care if I'm 80 yearsold and I finally get in,
because I've been applying forthe next 30 plus years and I
finally get in at 80, it willall be worth it.
Yeah, right, and I think I lovethe.
The greater the artist, thegreater the doubt.
Yeah, and even I mean that I'llend up right.
(07:12):
You just had a big show inGermany and all of a sudden you
come back home and there's thesethoughts in your head of like,
oh, did I do good enough?
Was I this?
Did I live up to what I thoughtor what they hoped?
Doubt starts right after yougot something.
So that quote is so, so, realand true, right, and it's just,
(07:37):
oh yeah.
And I have a quote I want toread by Charles Bukowski that I
love because I think he's sopungently funny at times and
we're already off script Alreadyoff script right, this is how
we do it.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
This is how we roll.
It should be just go off script.
This is exactly how we do it.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I'm down for whatever Bukowski had to say.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Please go.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Okay, so here's the quote from the wonderful
Bukowski.
He says the problem with theworld is that all of the
intelligent people are full ofdoubts, while the stupid ones
are full of confidence.
I love that because he's reallyhighlighting the fact that
intelligence and self-awarenessbring uncertainty to us.
And this is something that isdefinitely true of great artists
(08:15):
and we've talked about a lot ofthem in our podcasts who
they're extremely intelligent,but they have such
self-awareness and that at times, brings this uncertainty of am
I really doing this right?
Am I really doing the right?
Am I growing enough, am Itrying enough things?
But that it's that intelligenceof really thinking about those
(08:36):
things that causes you to havesome doubts, that make you go
further, that make you tryharder For sure, right, and I
think it's really easy.
Well, I know artists I'm notgoing to name names, although
sometimes I really want to whois just like there's just this
pompous arrogance about them,and I've never seen their work
(08:58):
grow in the last five years ears.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Well, I'll use a name that would.
That, to me, would for sure belike the, the um, the poster
child for for that.
I talked about this, actually,in the solo episode.
I did a few episodes back whereI talked about notes from the
woodshed by Jack Whitten, but Iused uh, sean Scully, as a sort
of emphasis of of that.
And you know what?
He'll never hear this.
Even if he did, he'd be like,yeah, fuck, yeah, that's me, so
it's always, it's all, but justthat extreme, like no, I'm
(09:31):
making the best work you've everseen.
And here it is, and if youdon't get it, then I can't help
you.
You know what I mean.
I'm paraphrasing here,obviously, but, yes, you know,
mutually exclusive.
But I think that the, the greatartist, who is also just
supremely confident, is the, theunicorn right, the, the
absolute exception to the rule,if we can call it that.
(09:54):
That we're talking about, youknow today for sure, and I think
that I'm going to throw anotherquote in that also was not on
the uh, as we continue todevolve from the uh playbook
that we had laid out.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Anton Chekhov we're evolving.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just getting better as we
go.
Perfect, let's go with that.
The role of the artist is toask questions, not answer them.
Anton Chekhov said that therole of the artist is to ask
questions, not answer them.
Yep, and I think that's a goodfor me.
Certainly I know that I'mmaking my best work when I'm
(10:29):
asking questions and I feel likesuccessful work for me is work
that encourages the viewer toask questions of themselves.
And just consider you knowthings maybe from a different
perspective or in a differentway than they would have
previously.
But greater artist, greaterdoubt.
(10:50):
I can only speak for one ofthose two things.
I know that I'm full of doubtas far as how great of an artist
.
That's not for us to decide.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, I was talking about that with my artists.
I can't believe I can'tremember if it was this last
Saturday or the Saturday beforeTalking about that with my
artists.
I can't believe I can'tremember if it was this last
Saturday or the Saturday before.
But we were talking about thatbecause in Art and Fear, you
know, one of the things theytalk about, that we also talked
about in the Art and Fearepisode, was that our life as
artists isn't frustratingbecause the passage is slow.
It's because we want it tohappen fast.
(11:20):
Say that again the artist's lifeis frustrating not because the
passage is slow, not because ittakes us time to get there.
It's because we imagine it tobe really fast.
Yeah, right, right, we think weshould be able to get there
tomorrow, but it actually isgoing to take you a couple of
years, right?
Or we think, oh, yeah, yeah, Ijust kind of nailed this here in
(11:42):
my work.
Yeah, so, oh, yeah, I'm aboutto do this.
And then you're like I'm not.
Why can't I do it?
I'm not there.
We're imagining these things tobe really quick, you know, and
I think that's when the artisttruly understands those things.
That's where doubt is going tobe, one of those things.
That's where the great doubt isgoing to come from, because can
(12:11):
I get there?
I don't know.
I'm going to keep trying, butcan I?
Speaker 1 (12:12):
not.
Well, I can't get there.
So let's just keep doing thispattern for the next 10 years,
right?
Yeah, well, that's the deathtrap, right, and that's the.
That's the easier, softer way,for sure, that's.
That's there's.
There's more comfort in justdoing a slightly different
iteration, you know, of what weknow to be, quote-unquote,
successful or or work.
But, yeah, we've.
We've discussed the downside ofthat many times in previous
(12:34):
episodes.
We don't need to go too too fardown that path today.
But I'm going to throw anotherquote in here, that's francis
bacon said the job of the artistis to always deepen the mystery
.
The job of the artist is alwaysto deepen the mystery.
Let me ask you, what do youthink that means?
When you read that, when youhear that deepen the mystery,
(12:55):
what does that mean to you?
Ty Nathan Clark?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Well, and you know that's an artist who was full of
a lot of doubt, right, francisBacon.
I just bought his journals awhile back and I started reading
them slowly, and he's full of alot of doubt with his work and
I think that's what pushed himso hard.
And I think, you know, thinkingabout mystery exists in what we
(13:23):
don't know, right, it's, it'sthis existence of something that
we don't know, but yet we'retrying to find it, we're trying
to find an answer for it, but wecan't.
But we know something exists,we know that there's something
there and wrapped up around that, um, and I think that when
we're able to embrace whatdoesn't truly exist, but we know
(13:45):
is there or not exist, whenwe're trying to really embrace
what we hope taking me but Iknow that I have that idea,
(14:08):
right that that our uncle, rickRubin, would always say you
can't just throw away thoselittle ideas there's something,
it's that it could be thatdivine spark, right.
That little teeny thing thatlights a huge fire, right.
That just takes you on thiscourse of something that could
be really, really big.
And I think by doing thatyou're making room, you're
(14:30):
creating more and more and moreroom in that mystery to bring
something out of it.
But if we're not deepening inthat, we're not diving into the
mystery and we're just kind ofchecking things off and going
through the motions, and I don'treally want to spend the time
that it's going to take to getthere.
Well, you're shrinking that,all that shrinking and shrinking
(14:51):
and shrieking, and you'retaking your room from this
massive mysterious space intothis little controlled substance
.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
The, uh, the aperture narrows yeah real quickly.
I just pulled up the definitionof mystery.
Yeah, something that isdifficult or impossible to
understand or explain.
That's, according to Oxford,something that is difficult or
you know it's there you know,it's there.
There's a sense of presence.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, there's.
You know that it's there, butit's like, ah, you know, and
that's part of that, like,that's part of that Imag
imagining something to happenfast.
You're just trying to get it,you're taking these steps to get
there.
You know it's there, I know Ican make this painting, I know I
can create this sculpture,build this installation out.
I know I can get there.
But when you don't have thetools to get there yet and
(15:41):
you've never done it yet, themystery is that idea that you
can.
Yeah, like, why would you evenbe thinking about it?
Why would it even be present?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Now comes the time.
It's the journey of the, it'sthe pursuit of finding an answer
.
That's interesting anyway,right, yeah, the other
definition, of course a novel,play or movie dealing with a
puzzling crime, especially amurder, right?
What's interesting about amystery as a genre of you know,
literature or murder?
Right, what's interesting abouta mystery as a genre of
literature or film?
Right, it's.
Oh, what happened here?
(16:13):
I want to get there, I want tofind out.
And it's all of the path, thelittle detours along the way,
all the dead ends that areinteresting in and of themselves
, that make for an interestingstory, that makes the ending, if
there is one in the context ofa narrative way, more
interesting.
(16:34):
Right, because we went on ajourney to get there.
It wasn't just, hey, just JoeFriday here's the facts,
professor Plum, with thecandlestick in the library.
Well, that's a pretty shortstory.
It's not that interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Well, and I love the next quote you have in here by
the physicist Brian Green, wherehe says exploring the unknown
requires tolerating uncertainty.
Right, and that's just whatwe're saying there.
It's like I'm about to embarkon some brand new ideas in my
work, like I'm trying to takethings that have existed for a
long time within my work, yeah,and I want to make them bigger,
(17:11):
I want to make them moreprevalent and more present,
because there's some really deepmeaning in these little moments
that have held deep meaning inmy work for years and I feel
like they're telling me theyneed more space, they need to
come out in a larger way, a moreprevalent way.
So now I'm in that unknown,yeah, right, and I have no idea.
(17:31):
I'm so uncertain on how to getthere, and I started playing
before I moved studios and I'mabout to start playing it again,
this plane, again this weekwith those ideas.
But I'm in full explorationmode here.
Yeah, I have to be completely.
I was just talking to one of myartists about this Saturday.
We have to be completely willingto explore the unknown and all
(17:54):
of its facets and tolerate theuncertainty.
And why do we tolerate?
Because we've been really goodat something else up until this
point.
Yeah, we've gotten into showswith this work.
We've gotten into invitationalswith this work, residencies,
whatever that is with the workwe just did.
We're certain about that.
(18:14):
Yeah, you have to tolerate thatuncertainty.
That means you have to livewith it.
You have to move with it everyday.
You got to go in the studio,come out of the studio, go into
the studio, come out of thestudio day in, day out, and
tolerate the fact that you don'tknow how it's going to look,
how you're going to get thereand how long it might take.
That's the exploration.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
That word tolerate, you know, to me I interpret that
as as acceptance of this, aspart of the path.
Right, there's, you know, whenyou think about the, the tall,
how much can I tolerate thisdiscomfort?
Well, part of it comes fromaccepting that discomfort, that
uncertainty, is just part of thejourney, right, as opposed to.
(18:55):
You know what's something elseuncomfortable?
Well, here it's 95 degrees.
Where you are in Texas, it's 45degrees where I am here in
Minnesota, right now, if eitherof us goes outside in the
clothes we're wearing right now,we're going to be probably a
little bit uncomfortable, right?
So there's, there's things thatwe can influence, right, we can
change, in my case, how much Ibundle up.
(19:16):
In your case, you know how muchyou, you, you layer down, right
, I mean, there's things that wecan, that we can influence to
help the environment that we arechoosing to put ourselves in,
to be less brutal or affect usless.
But it has to begin from aplace of accepting this is the
temperature of the environmentthat we're choosing to be in.
(19:39):
So what do we, what do we dowith that, as opposed to trying
to change, you know, the the,the reality of that situation,
right, those are very differentperspectives as opposed to.
You know what I mean.
So that's kind of I think aboutit a lot as, as a map, I think
we are trying to continuouslyexpand the territory that we're
(20:00):
exploring.
You know, in our work, and thegood news to me is that
everything starts from.
I mean, every, everyexploration starts from the, the
last known place on the map.
Right, like we don't, we don'tjust jump out of a, out of an
airplane, parachute into landcompletely unknown.
(20:20):
Right we're, we're startingfrom a place that that is known
and we're pushing the boundariesof the territory that that
we're exploring.
So, like, with what you'redescribing, you know and we've
talked about this offline aswell like you're beginning from
the threads that you've alreadystarted to cultivate in previous
work and deciding no, I want toreally lean into this more.
(20:43):
Right, so it is, it is on, itis uncertain, but it's not
completely unknown.
Right, there is a, a there's a,there's a seed of all.
Right, I know there's somethinghere.
I'm just going to go fartherdown this path and see where,
whatever the see, where thecoast is, or see where I fall
off the, you know, fall off theedge, right, well, I love that,
(21:05):
uh, I love that analogy and Iuse it a lot in the program too
and for myself.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
just explorers and map makers and the ancient
discoverers and and I I usedI've studied for a long time
when I was kind of in thatoutdoor adventure world and
going and hiking around theworld and backpacking and things
and studying the old climbers,the charted everest and the
mallories and the royal robinsand a lot of the swedes and the
(21:30):
finnish climbers from northerneurope, and then moving into
like more contemporary climbers,from doug tompkins that started
north face and yvonne chinardthat started patagonian, how
they charted all these climbsthat nobody'd ever done before
but also kind of invented modernclimbing technology while they
were doing it, you know, gettinglocal people to, you know
(21:51):
blacksmith things for them andcreating carabiners and
different ways to climb andchart these things, and that's
our.
That's what we're doing, likewe're going to a spot that has
been laid out through historybut all of a sudden we're about
to go onto a new trail, maybehave to make something that's
never existed before in land,that's never been walked on
(22:13):
before right, and all of asudden you're starting to chip
away into a new direction yeahand you're laying out that map.
I mean, that's what the ancientexplorers did is the last people
made it to here, but our goalis to make it even further.
So we got to where they went,and now I've got to go further.
I got to where Cy Twombly andAnthony Tappas went.
(22:34):
I got to where MarthaYoungworth went, and now Ty
Nathan Clark's going to take ita step further.
How do I do that?
Where am I going?
Well, it's all brand new.
I'm totally uncertain.
How far will I be able to getto go?
And then you start charting andgoing and moving and it's
completely uncertain.
You don't know what's on thatother side.
You only know what's been therebefore.
(22:54):
Yeah, but it's really easy.
There's a lot of explorers thatturned around and went Ooh gosh
, these cliffs are too tough, Ican't go further.
I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
There there is a measure of confidence and
self-assuredness that isrequired 100%, you know right.
I mean, if we take our jumpingoff quote, you know too far, we
would say the more doubt we have, the greater the artist we
could become.
There is a point at which weneed to muster up the courage to
(23:33):
take those steps forward intothe unknown, to explore where
we've not been before.
It's perfect.
It's almost like we plannedthis.
We actually didn't, but I lovethat you're talking about actual
exploration.
So this next quote I'm actuallygoing to call an audible here.
I'm actually going to play anaudio from a podcast I was
listening to, actually earliertoday.
This is by an author named AlexHutchinson and I'm going to
(23:53):
play an audio from.
I heard, I learned about himfrom a recent episode.
He was a guest on the Rich Rollpodcast, which is one of my
favorite favorite podcasts,super insightful, and he has a
lot, of, a lot of reallyeducated guests.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I'm going to play this audio and then we'll uh,
we'll talk about it we reallyare wired to explore in some
amorphous way, that that, thisfeeling that something might be
interesting over the hill, thatis a human feeling, that is
something you should respect inyourself and and recognize and
(24:29):
pursue, and that, moreover, it'sa useful feeling to follow.
It's one that leads to goodthings, both in a you're going
to get better restaurant mealseventually if you explore
because you're, you know, in atangible way but also, maybe
more importantly, in a way thatleads to feeling like you're
(24:50):
doing something meaningful, thatexploration is about accepting
uncertainty and risk and that bydoing that on a regular basis,
we end up doing difficult things, overcoming our doubts and
feeling like our pursuits havemeaning.
And so why does this matter?
(25:11):
In our current world, there area whole bunch of structural
forces that are making our liveseasier and more predictable,
that are eliminating uncertaintyand also eliminating even the
need to make decisions, thatwe're being fed entertainment
options, we're being told whatto do in a way that takes away
(25:34):
the active part of following ourown interests.
There's a bunch of differentreasons that that is not going
to be satisfying in thelong-term and may even be bad
for us in a sort of verytangible neuroscience way, but
certainly is a less satisfyingway to live.
So the sort of takeaway messageis um, listen to that inner
(25:57):
voice telling you to trysomething, uh, and be willing to
take take risks in pursuit ofsomething, because you never
know what you might find.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
So I love that.
I would encourage people to gocheck out that podcast episode
because it's really good.
He just wrote a new book thatI've already pre-ordered and I'm
not sure that the title that Ithink it is Wired to Explore.
I can fact check myself and wecan put it in the show notes.
But just that whole idea of thecuriosity, you know, something
we've talked about countlesstimes before and I'm sure we'll
(26:29):
revisit going forward as well,but just that curiosity of like
something might be interestingover that hill.
We don't know what it is, itmight not be where we end up, it
might not be where we want tostay, but it might be
interesting.
And just hearing him talk aboutthat being a useful feeling is
really, really interesting to me.
(26:51):
One of the things that is, Iguess, another layer to that, or
something that I hear in thattoo, is that you know he talks
about the continuously exposingourselves to the uncertainty
will, over time, make morecomfortable with that discomfort
.
It will expand our range oftolerance right For for
(27:14):
uncertainty and just accepting,like I think about if there's,
if there's anythingfundamentally different about
the way that I think about theprocess of making art now versus
even you know, a couple ofyears ago.
It's probably that I would saythat I'm I am much more, and I'm
curious your thoughts on thisas well, because you've been
doing this longer than I havebut I'm much more conditioned
(27:38):
for just being okay with sittingin like this.
This might not work.
I may very well end up, youknow, throwing away or, in my
case, just you know stashingaway, until I have to move my
studio Right, throwing somethingin a pile and being like, hey,
not today, maybe not ever, butdefinitely not today.
(27:59):
Right, yeah, and accepting thatthe value in that exploration
may not necessarily be for thecompletion of that particular
piece, it may not evencontribute anything useful for
that particular body of work,but it's still expanding the
territory of my understanding ofwhat I am trying to do and
(28:22):
giving me more tools with whichto do it.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
You know, moving my studio was such an eye-opener to
me because there was so muchold work that I was uncovering,
right.
It's like you're going back onthe trail on your way out and
you're going oh gosh, I rememberwe turned left and we shouldn't
at that point, you know.
And so we went back and chartedthis way and I mean there are
some pieces that I pulled outand was like, oh, I remember
(28:50):
that, what a horrible piece,what an absolutely terrible
thing.
And then I went.
But I do remember if I hadn'thave done that and stuck with it
and kept moving through it andstuck with it and kept moving
through it, I would not havefigured out X.
Right, I had to make thatabsolutely atrocious, shitty
(29:14):
thing to get to X.
Mm-hmm, you know, and I love ohgosh, it's A Smooth Sea Never
Made a Skilled Sailor byFranklin D Roosevelt.
Say that again A Smooth SeaNever Made a Skilled Sailor,
right.
If the ocean is A smooth seanever made a skilled sailor
Right.
If the ocean is perfectlysmooth and you're out there
sailing, you're just going to gostraight and you're going to
get to your point, right.
(29:35):
But if something comes upthat's hard to get through, that
sailor is not going to be ableto make it.
Yeah, and I think us as artists,like we're constantly hitting
storms out on the water Likeit's a constant storm.
It's like all of a sudden, wefeel like the clouds cleared,
the sky is blue and we're ableto just lay back on that
(29:58):
sailboat and just relax and thenext thing you know the second,
you, you know the second youkick your shoes off and you grab
that glass of wine.
The clouds are back and thestorms hit again, and there you
are again on a rough sea.
I mean, that's, you know,that's the artist's life.
It's every one of you that'slistening is going right now.
Yeah, absolutely, and maybesome of the listeners, I've
(30:19):
never had the blue sky.
I'm still waiting for it.
Sure, nathan, when does thatblue sky come?
It does come if you're patientand you realize this is slow and
it's going to take some time.
And I think you know Miles.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Davis is one of my favorite musicians in history.
I've got a number of miles fora second you gave me.
You reminded me of somethinginteresting I don't think I've
mentioned in the podcast before.
We can fact check this later.
I'm not sure if it's true or not, but I have heard that the
biggest difference between theway that cattle and bison
respond to a storm I think I'mpretty sure this is true, let's
just go with it, let's go withit Is that when cattle livestock
(30:55):
, when they encounter bad orinclement weather, they go the
opposite direction.
They try to outrun the storm,which, of course, is impossible,
which means they actually endup going the same direction as
the storm and they spend moretime in it.
Bison buffalo do the oppositewhen they encounter bad weather.
(31:16):
They're just their naturalinstincts tell them we go, we go
into the storm, we move towardsthe storm, which means they
naturally spend less time inthat inclement weather.
And so, assuming that's true,it makes a lot of sense, it
makes for a good storyregardless.
But it's really interesting inthat like, okay, well, if you
(31:39):
haven't experienced that bluesky or if we haven't experienced
it recently, just rememberingthat leaning into the discomfort
is likely the best way to goright, because let's bring it
back to art.
What's the alternative?
What's the equivalent of, youknow, being a big dumb cow in
the art space?
(31:59):
Well, it would be.
Oh, let me just retreat back towhat I know and just kind of do
more of that, because I thinkthat that's at least there's
some there's, there's thepromise of the false hope.
I would argue, we would argue ofcomfort there, which is only
going to delay actually gettingthrough.
(32:20):
You know the shit to get to the, the, the goal to get to earn,
you know, the, the earn thesummit, right, like, I haven't
done a lot of, I've done a lotof hiking.
I've not done a lot of likeproper climbing, you know, but
even if you just think aboutlike a, a good hike where you're
going to go get to a peak, Imean there's plenty parts of of
most especially a long hikewhere it's just kind of drudgery
(32:41):
, it's not all beautiful scenery, you know, along the way some
of it's pretty, you know nasty,and you're just like all right,
I just, I believe I've not beento this peak before, but I'm
following a trail that exists,or following my compass.
I can see it, I know it's upthere.
So just continue to pushthrough um with the belief that
(33:02):
there is something better on theother side of that hill.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah Well, in that moment I mean I did this hiking
in Patagonia years ago,backpacking and, man, we were
beat up on the trail.
I mean it was a good.
We were five and a half hoursin a switchbacks with, you know,
50 pound packs on our backs andjust like I mean physically
crying, some of us like it was abeating.
I remember my buddy, chris andI look at each other and going,
(33:28):
dude, I'm hurting.
And then out of the cloudscomes fitzroy just one of the
most majestic peaks in theentire world.
Coming through the trail it waskind of cloudy, you can't see
and everything disappears.
In that moment you don't feel apain, you forget you have a
pack, you don't know what'sgoing on, the tears are gone and
you're just in awe and you'rejust staring at that thing and
(33:51):
you're just going, wow, what?
Oh, my goodness, you know whatI mean and so, oh, I mean that's
what this is about.
This is why we spend so muchtime in the drudgery and in the
moments of like I can't figurethis out and continuing that
(34:11):
battle and that battle like thebison, going straight through
the storm, knowing that thestorm is going to pass you yes,
it's going to go right past andyou're going to be right back
into the green fields feastingall day on the tall grass.
You know, in South Dakota,wherever you know, they're
roaming, and I knew I lovedbison for a reason.
(34:31):
That's why and I think as I wasjumping into Miles Davis, one
of my favorite musicians inhistory as a big jazz person he
has a quote where he says don'tfear mistakes.
There are none.
I mean, this is somebody whowas doing things with the
trumpet that people weren'tdoing and didn't do.
(34:51):
He was taking playing a trumpetto an entire new level.
And then he took playing atrumpet to an entire new level
by adding other bandmates inthat were all competing and
doing different things andcreating art out of it.
And doing different things andcreating art out of it.
(35:12):
And I think that the beauty inthat is if you can recognize
that there's always discomfortand failure, no matter what.
It's going to be uncomfortable,there's going to be discomfort,
but that is the very thing thatleads to breakthroughs.
Yeah, yeah, it's the very thing.
You and I both have had so manymoments in the studio where we
can not figure out what's in ourhead.
(35:32):
Yep, and we're trying, we'retrying.
Well, that material didn't workwith that material.
Well, that didn't.
Well, that definitely didn'tsay what I'm trying to say.
That doesn't.
And through all the failure,one tiny little thing because
you stuck through it gives youthe answer yes, everything we're
doing should be full ofquestions.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
It's worth acknowledging, too, that like it
.
Sorry to cut you off.
Um, no, it's fine, I'm not thatsorry, I just felt like I
should say it Um it's really notfine, but go ahead.
No, it it.
It doesn't make it hurt anyless, but it does give the hurt.
It does give the discomfortpurpose.
Right, it's purposefuldiscomfort, it's discomfort with
(36:17):
meaning, you know, and that's,I think, probably where keeping
a vision of what we are workingtowards, even if it is just a
general sense of what we hope itfeels like.
Or to your example just now,holding on to those aha moments
(36:37):
as little, little data points,little parts on the map that we
can hold on to and say, allright, I have, I have hurt this
way before and ultimately, atsome point maybe not today,
maybe not tomorrow, but at somepoint it has taken me to a place
worth getting to right.
(36:58):
It gives the suffering, thediscomfort, it gives it purpose
and that makes it much morebearable, you know, to endure
while it's happening.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yeah, well, I think that's a good, that's a really
good segue into our KurtVonnegut quote that we have here
at one of my favorite authorsand I think, maybe top 10
wittiest people to ever gracethe planet like just wit and
wisdom combination.
I don't know if anybody holds acandle to Kurt Vonnegut the guy
(37:29):
is just brilliant.
But he says we have tocontinually be jumping off
cliffs and developing our wingson the way down.
I mean that's pretty cool.
I mean that saying itself likegrowth does not come from
playing it safe.
Right, I'm sorry it doesn't.
(37:50):
I push this in my programconstantly.
You will not grow if you're notexperimenting and you're not
taking massive risks, even intoareas you don't understand yet,
like this is where evolutioncomes from.
This is where the growth inyour evolution comes from.
This is where the growth inyour it it takes those risks
(38:10):
that feel uncomfortable to grow.
It really does.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
It's almost impossible to know, in many
cases, flat out impossible toknow what the what the solution
will be until we're clear aboutwhat the problem is.
We're trying to solve for is inthe first place, right, you
know.
So if the alternative issitting on the cliff and trying
(38:34):
to design, you know the perfectwings.
I mean maybe, but most likelywe're going to be much more
qualified, we'll have much moreinformation to work with as we
go right, once we betterunderstand what the challenges
or obstacles even are, right, inother words, there's really no.
(38:58):
Even if we were to try to solvefor every potential eventuality
in advance.
I mean good luck, right,especially in this, this crazy,
you know, art game that we'replaying here.
There's, there's no such thing.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Yeah, I mean, I've had so many questions with
artists who in my program andnot in the program, just artists
that I know and meet, who,let's say, somebody has been
painting acrylic their wholelife and they want to try oils.
But yet they said they wantedto try oils four years ago and
they still haven't tried oils.
Right, it's like because you'remaking something with something
that you're comfortable with,you're good at, you know you can
(39:33):
knock out these paintingswhatever, and now you're going
to completely change into a newmedium.
Now you have to learn again.
I think that's the fear a lotof times is well, I don't want
to feel like a beginner again.
I don't want my work to lookimmature again.
If I've already been mature inthis area with you know what I'm
painting here.
And it's like, well, well,you're never going to get to
(39:53):
maybe what's really in your headIf you don't really follow that
thing.
Jump off the cliff and go.
Oh, this is what the wind feelslike at this level.
Oh, this is what happens when Iput my arms out here.
This is okay.
Now I know what I need to dowith wings.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Now I know how to add these things.
I'm sure it's a combination ofthe two, but do you, in the
scenario you just described, doyou think it's more a fear of um
the work not looking as matureas what that person has done
previously, or do you think it'smore a fear of the feeling of
not knowing what they're doing?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah, it's the fear of it's uncertainty, it's the
fear of jumping into somethingyou don't know how to do yet.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Right, but do you think?
For most people it's, it's thefear of the, the, the result, or
fear of the feeling in theprocess, the feeling in the
process, the feeling in theprocess.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
You already know how hard it is.
Yeah, we already know that.
We already know how difficultis to make what we're good at,
right to use the materials thatwe've mastered.
Let's put it that way.
We already know how long it'staken, how hard it was.
So it's like adding and I thinkI've really tried to get into.
I told I was telling one of myartists recently.
I said it took me a while toget here and she's had some
(41:13):
success, like some really greatsuccess, um, in Mexico city and
in Miami and at fairs sellingwork and her work does really
well.
But she wants to grow.
Yeah, like she's.
Like I know I want to get tothe next level and that next
level for her is museums.
That's the next level for her.
She's had success in thegallery world.
She's done these things.
(41:34):
She's got a great collectorbase, great dealers and
galleries.
The next level is the museums.
She wants to be recognized.
I get it Heck, yeah, and Ithink she should be.
But then she knows she also hasto grow in her works.
Got to take this other step,this extra step, and we talked
about this just last week howdifficult it is to accept
(41:56):
failing and continuing andliving amongst the failure of
the experiments to get to theother side.
Yeah, because even when she'dgo into trying, you know, we, I,
we go back and forth.
She's like, oh, I hated it, itdidn't work, uh, you know.
And it's like, yeah, you needto accept that and go.
Man, I'm so lucky and blessedthat I get to fail every day in
(42:18):
the studio.
Right, that's, that's my.
I've had to shift my mindsetfrom ultimate drive of success
to go no to ultimate.
I'm blessed to be able to screwaround and fail in order to get
to where I really want to go inmy work.
So the days that are horrible,I'm just going.
(42:40):
Man, I'm so lucky and soblessed that I actually get to
do this and then come back andhave that same mentality the
next day.
Now, I'm not saying thathappens all the times.
There's definite days where I'mlike this sucks, screw this, I
don't want to do this anymore.
This is driving me crazy, butyou get.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
You get what I'm saying.
I do.
I mean, I think, as you'retalking, I'm thinking you know
there's there's so much value injust acknowledging that we do
get to define and andcontinuously redefine what our
definition of success is.
I'm using air quotes here forthose of you who are just
listening.
You know, uh, and what you justdescribed was you making a
(43:23):
conscious choice to move yourown goalposts and say, all right
, I had previously been livingover here where I was viewing
the feeling of success as a andI'm now recalibrating my thought
process to find success, tofind a feeling of let's use a
better word fulfillment andpurpose from this thing over
(43:47):
here that you've identified asbeing the thing that's going to
take you where you ultimatelywant to go, which is somewhere
you've not yet been.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Yep, I mean, I had to do that for my own personality,
my own character, right, I'm afour.
You know I'm a feeler, you know.
So, on the Enneagram scale, I'ma four and it's like I like sad
things.
I can easily, you know, getsucked into my own sadness.
Right, I could sit there andhave Jeff Buckley or Elliot
(44:18):
Smith or you know the Smiths orthe cure on all day long and
just, you know, be happy,soaking in that, right, like
that's just me.
That's how I'm made up.
I mean, I'm a very joyfulperson but I'm a very emotional
person.
So I know what I have to do,because I know what my
resistance is.
I have 100% know what myresistance is, and that will,
(44:41):
that'll, shut me down easily.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
I'm sorry I'm laughing.
You just reminded me I love youlaughing at my sadness.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Your sadness is hilarious and I don't say that
as like I'm a sad person, I sayI love dark movies, I love
depressing film, I love sadness,those things I just I can bask
in them and I love them, but inthe studio they can be dangerous
for an artist.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
One of my great joys as a father has been sharing my
love of sad music with Ella,with our youngest, who's now 16.
So I sent her this meme.
You can throw it on the video.
It's a meme of a dog holding aguitar and it says head in the
(45:28):
nineties I'm sad.
Parentheses guitar solo radio.
Head in the aughts I'm sad.
Beep, beep, boop, boop in frontof a keyboard.
It's visual, whatever, it'sfunny.
So this is.
This is.
We've talked about radio before.
Since we're both massive fans,they've announced, or there's
(45:48):
there.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
There's rumors that they're going to be going on
tour, right?
Speaker 1 (45:49):
And so they filed a new LLC last week.
It's happening.
So, ellen, I have a planned, atrip plan to New York.
She's really into theater andum and and Broadway and that
kind of thing, and so we'regoing to do a dad auto trip to
to New York this upcoming summerand we're already looking at
what shows we're going to go to,where we're going to stay.
And so she came to me the otherday she goes, dad, what if,
instead of New York, we go seeradio ed?
(46:09):
And I'm like, sweetie, I wantto go where you want to go, but
you just melted my heart.
I will fly you, I will fly uswherever we need to go to see
what could very well be their,uh, their, their last tour.
But anyway, you talking about,so she didn't want to go see, uh
(46:33):
, she didn't want to go.
Listen to your sad dad rockbandline.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
She, she loves, she loves the national as well.
Yeah, that was one of myfavorite comments she made to
you, though which one?
The sad dad rock.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, she called it yeah, that's one of
their things, but, yeah, it's uh, no, I'm with you there and I
think that you know there'ssomething to be said for for
music and you know, reallyidentifying what type yeah,
let's talk about it what type ofmusic really energizes and
inspires us in different wayswhen we're in these different
(47:02):
sort of places and phases.
Right, I mean, I think we'renaturally inclined to want to
listen to music that eithermatches the mood or the energy
that we're in, or try to findsomething that's going to get us
into a place, you know, that'smore consistent with where we'd
like to be, you know, in thatmoment.
But, but being in tune to thetypes of inputs, whether it's
(47:23):
music or other things that weare allowing to influence us, is
, um, is really, reallyimportant.
Like you know, for me, if I'mtrying to make bold, you know,
quick moves without just boom,boom, boom, you know the type of
music that I listened to is isvery different, right, like
that's what I'm going to listento.
I'm going to, you know, morehard techno or hip hop or
(47:46):
something that's that's a bitmore, whatever energetic or or
taps into something primal in methat listened to, you know,
whatever, the national, forexample uh, you know, might not,
but there's a purpose for allof it, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Bringing us back around.
We did.
We're not doing a great job ofjust going finding these
tangents that are just so faroff in the in the universe.
I love it.
We are doing a great job.
Let's just do it.
I think we're doing a reallygood job and we got to talk
about her.
Some of our favorite music inthe mix of it, which is
something we do normally.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Hey have you heard of these guys?
Have you heard her yet?
Listen to her album um.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
So which I'm so addicted to Fontaine's DC right
now, it's absolutely insane.
That's just a drop for forFontaine's Um.
Okay, next quote here.
I do like this, cause we kindof we were about to get there
and then we jumped into someother stuff.
But just talking about this isa great quote by Edward Albee
and he says if you're willing tofail interestingly, says if
(48:52):
you're willing to failinterestingly, you tend to
succeed Interestingly.
Yep, I like that, I love that.
I'd never.
I'd never seen that quotebefore, but I really liked that.
And I think as artists I mean,it's a lot easier for us to fill
that gap than anyone outside ofthe arts.
But I love like don't justsettle.
If it feels odd, if it feelsweird or crazy or like what in
the world, just try it, go forit, go do it.
(49:14):
If something feels so out ofthe ordinary for you, go ahead
and put it down on canvas, putit into clay, put it, just go
for it.
And I think that's really kindof what he's saying is it's easy
for us to just fail, normalCause sometimes we get that, we
(49:35):
get that idea right, we get thatseed.
That just seems really way offbase.
Yeah, it's something that'slike so new Maybe it's so
different that it just kind ofadmit yeah, I don't really want
to even go there.
I'm not sure why.
I would say, go try it, becauseyou may fail in that thing, but
(49:58):
it might really lead tosomething that comes out of it
that takes you in a whole newdirection.
And I was telling, I think itwas.
I think it was.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
Gianna.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Is it Gianna?
The other day, our friendGianna Tassone, we were talking
just about work and moments ofbeing stale and doing things.
And I think it was Gianna and Isaid go do something totally
different.
Just go do something sodifferent that you're not
normally doing.
I don't know what that is.
Go paint landscapes for a week,go sketch things, go do
(50:29):
something, go sculpt, dosomething that's outside of what
you've been painting, that's sodifferent Because it may lead
you to a completely newterritory within your work.
And I heard Jerry Salt say thatyears ago.
He said when was the last time,abstract artists, that you sat
in your studio and just sketchedyour studio?
When's the last time yousketched?
(50:52):
When's the last time you did astill life?
And so after I don't know if itwas a podcast, I heard him say
it in or whatever.
So then I did it that day.
I got out pastels, got out somecolor pencils and I sketched my
whole studio and I set up astill life and I did it.
It felt amazing.
It was like it was clearingspace in me because I was so
(51:16):
focused on X, so into it, sothat it completely separated my
mind, my artist mind, in a waythat just needed to be
whitewashed a little bit, and itkind of just brought me back.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
So that would be a great example of, I think you
know, pushing the territory in acompletely different direction,
maybe a completely oppositedirection or just different than
the direction that we thinkwe're supposed to be going.
But that information, whenreapplied to whatever the thing
is, will be useful, right?
I mean I think about, if theyou said fail normal, I was
(51:55):
going to say fail boring,boringly, Interestingly, how
would you say that?
Whatever boringly, let's gowith that word.
But what is what?
Would failing in a boring way,in a normal way, you know, look
like right, it would be failingdoing the thing that we've
already been doing right.
That's not an interestingfailure, that's just a normal,
(52:19):
you know, a normal one.
But you know, when we pursuethose interesting failures, we
are absolutely expanding theterritory and and we are
acquiring new information that,when applied to the other things
, will will give us a freshperspective.
You know, I'm a good examplewould be I'm I'm carving wood
(52:39):
again for the first time in acouple of years.
You know, I mean, I did a wholebody of work that was almost
primarily that and almost almostexclusively set it aside, you
know, for for quite a while.
And I just I did a whole bodyof work that was almost
primarily that and almostexclusively set it aside for
quite a while, and I've had thisurge, this pull, to just do it
again.
Yeah, and wouldn't, you know it?
Everything that I've done sincethen, in the time that I've
completely set it aside, isabsolutely informing the way
(53:03):
that I'm approaching it now.
And that's all territory.
Those are all tools that Iwouldn't have access to, not
actual tools, although I'veacquired some of those as well,
but ways of thinking about thework, ways of approaching it
that I wouldn't have if I hadjust continued down.
You know that path, withouttaking all of the different, you
(53:25):
know interesting detours andmany interesting failures, you
know along the way.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
I mean I would say in that a little bit with the new
work that I'm about to do,because I've worked with fibers
for a long time.
I've done a lot of differentthings with fibers.
I've been sewing since I was achild, when my mom taught me to
sew when I was a kid and I lovedsewing and doing things.
So I've always had little bitsof sewing and thread and things
in my work.
But right now, taking them tothe next level, how do I do that
(53:56):
?
What do I do?
How do I do it?
Well, I'm going to get reallydamn interesting and I'm going
to fail.
I mean, I am failingInterestingly.
I mean some of these things I'mdoing, I'm just like what the
heck is that it's?
I got to learn, I got torelearn some things.
Right, I've got to teach myselfsome new things and I'm trying
to do some of those thingsbackwards.
(54:17):
Yeah, I'm trying to do it in away that it's not supposed to be
done, because I like the wayit's.
That.
That's the quote here it is.
This is the the quote.
If you're willing to fail,interestingly, you tend to
succeed.
Interestingly, I'm trying to dosomething the opposite way.
It's actually supposed to bedone physically and I feel like
(54:40):
it's coming out more interestingdoing it that way than it is
doing it the regular way.
Sure, right, right, and it's,but it's looks like shit right
now and it's like, but there'sthese moments that I'm on oh,
it's coming, it's going to come.
I've done this enough.
I've experimented enough to beconfident that something will
come of all the time spent.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
And because you've changed your definition of what
success is, you havemanufactured for yourself a
positive feedback loop, yeah, towhere the things that don't
look the way that you want themto, or look good now, are still
like.
You're still getting thatpositive feedback of like no,
this is taking me somewhere,right, because it has before and
(55:27):
will again.
Yep, yeah, that's huge.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
And that's what this, this, that's what this about,
this is all about, and this,this is what we want to
encourage all of you artists outthere that are listening is,
you know, we've had some artistssend us some pretty fun
messages over the last fewmonths that, uh, your, your
(55:51):
talks in in Germany really gaveconfidence to some artists who
were really kind of strugglingwith trying things and doing
things and and just theirexcitement to go.
Man, you really gave me thatconfidence to try these new
things in the studio and to beable to fail to get to where I
want to go and you know, that'swhy we're talking about these
things is we're in it with you,you're in it with us and, man,
if there's more of us willing tofail, interestingly, I just
(56:13):
think there's going to be someincredible work that starts to
explode out there.
If we keep exploring andtolerating uncertainty, the
growth in those of you that aredoing that is going to be so fun
to watch, and we have artiststhat, because of the podcast,
we've gotten to know and wewatch and we follow in our own
(56:33):
accounts on Instagram and it'sfun to see the breakthroughs.
Yeah, you can see them.
Oh, yeah, if you, if you followart enough and you watch
artists closely, you can see thebreakthroughs.
Yes, and that is so fun to seeduring your contempt, during our
contemporary culture artists,that we're doing things with an
(56:55):
artist that we're working withand watching and seeing them
come to those moments of theydid it.
Yeah, wow, yeah.
They found that breakthroughand, man, that work looks
amazing.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
Yeah, you're making me, you're, you're, you're
reminding me of the, the, theutility of, you know, failing
recklessly in the pursuit of, ofgoing places.
That, and we don't need to sayI've never, never been explored
before.
But certainly in terms of, ifthe goal is to set yourself
(57:30):
apart, that's a, that's a way togo, you know for sure.
You know, like you and I bothhave very ambitious, you know
long-term goals that we wouldn'tnecessarily share on the
podcast here, but we've, we'veboth got some some pretty
ambitious and and audacious.
You know long-term goals, and soI know, for both of us, uh,
(57:51):
what we're trying to accomplishcertainly falls in line with
yeah, how, how far can this bepushed and how much new
territory can we not justexplore but over time,
successfully, you know,communicate in the finished work
?
That's kind of the ultimategoal, right?
Because, again, if thealternative, if the alternative
(58:12):
is is a just boring, you knowregular failures, you're, you're
probably on a path that that,um, many, many, many others were
and still are on, which, again,there's nothing wrong with that
, but it is more difficult,right, to really distinguish
yourself If you're playing thesame game as so many others are.
(58:34):
Did I say that right?
I can rephrase that for me in away that's not quite so judgy.
Speaker 2 (58:40):
No, I don't think it's judgy.
I mean, you know me, I'm prettydamn judgy, I mean we're
artists, we're we're judgingpeople as artists.
So I think it's be you, yeah,don't be somebody else, right,
like, I think that's.
I think that's how we get tothose ambitious goals by really,
really spending time finding usin the work and being us
(59:03):
completely, because the secondwe start being somebody else,
it's going to slow that timelinedown and we're going to have to
wrap up here, because they'renow working on the gate right
outside of our garage door andso that's going to get really
loud.
They're coming for you.
Sorry, everybody.
Speaker 1 (59:19):
I think it's a good wrapping up.
It's not that we have beengoing an hour yeah we did it
again.
This will be a quick little 30minute episode.
Here we are an hour in, I'vegot.
Speaker 2 (59:27):
I've got cash barking at me in the door to the left
going.
You've been gone for a week.
Why are you not inside playingwith me?
And now I've got the gate crewout working outside.
Speaker 1 (59:37):
So we got three quotes to choose from Ty.
You decide which is going to beour closer, just because I feel
compelled to, like you know youknow, I really liked that Van
Gogh quote a lot Yep, um.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
And if you have not watched at eternity's gate, with
uh William Defoe playing VanGogh, uh, directed by Julian
Schnabel, I highly suggest youwatch it tomorrow, tonight when
you listen to this.
But the quote says I am alwaysdoing what I cannot do yet in
(01:00:10):
order to learn how to do it, andI think that really just sums
up everything we've talked abouttoday.
So I love that quote Always beworking on what you can't do yet
in order to learn how to do it.
Just be bold.
Boldness is an act of genius.
It's one of my favorite quotes.
I forget what book that's from,but I love that quote Boldness
is an act of genius.
Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
I said one more.
We're going to do one more, onemore, just because it pairs so
well with that Maya Angelouquote do the best you can until
you know better.
Then, when you know better, dobetter.
I love that, just the elegantsimplicity and wisdom in that.
Do the best you can until youknow better.
Then, when you know better, dobetter.
Yeah Right, do the best we canwith what we have in front of us
(01:00:48):
, and that will lead us toknowing better and, ultimately,
doing better.
Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Absolutely Love it.
Go, make some art everybody.
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
Go make some art.
Thanks for joining us.
We'll be back next week or in acouple of weeks with another
episode of Just Make art.
Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
Bye.
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