Why I Make Art. Ursula Von Rydingsvard

A single question can power a lifetime of work: Why do I make art? Ty and Nathan sit with Ursula Von Rydingsvard’s stark and generous answers—woven from anxiety, labor, faith in process, and the stubborn hope that making can heal—and use it as a mirror for our own practices. From the first splinter to the last pass of the saw, we look at how big work invites big stakes, why the best days feel like discovery, and how the studio becomes a container strong enough to hold whatever we bring into it.

We dig into the creative toggle between object and process: when materials feel right but the method frays, and when the method sings but the object won’t land. That friction is feedback, not failure. Ursula’s line about having confidence in the possibility of seeing the work through reframes ambition without guarantees—an artist’s version of resilience. We also talk about self-doubt as a companion rather than an enemy, and how studying our heroes deeply—films, books, museum visits—feeds our own artistic DNA without imitation.

There’s a human infrastructure behind monumental art. Ursula’s assistants form another kind of family, proof that leadership in the studio is its own craft. We reflect on daily rhythm, showing up without perfect conditions, and making pieces that may outlive us—which is how work reaches into the future. The conversation edges into generational pain and the unanswerable questions art dares to hold. Answers are rare; presence is everything. If you’ve ever needed permission to trust the process and keep going, consider this your sign.

If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs a creative nudge, and leave a quick review—tell us your “why” so we can feature it in a future Q&A.

Make sure to check out "Art from the Outside" and the amazing interview they had with Ursula: Spotify    Apple

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
If I can start with something I call why do I make
art?
And this is for everybody, forartists, for non-artists.
And I'm hoping that there's someclarity to that why, but it
doesn't answer that questionreally, because it's impossible.

SPEAKER_06 (00:36):
That was the amazing Ursula Vaughn Writings Guard,
one of Nathan's and my.
I mean, we have a lot offavorite artists, Nathan, but
she's definitely one that weboth absolutely love.
I came across Ursula, I don'tremember how many years ago, and
I don't remember what museum,but I remember seeing this piece
that was monstrous sculpturemade out of wood, and blew me

(00:58):
away.
Looked at the name and instantlyjumped on my phone and looked
her up and was sold instantly onher work.
And I've come across her work,gosh, I I mean, I don't think
there's a museum in the US thatI've been in that I haven't seen
an Ursula Van Ridensgar piece.
And so she, I'm not gonna give aton of backstory on her because
if you do not know her, jumponline and research her and

(01:22):
start looking at her work.
You've probably seen a piece.
If you haven't, you're gonna beblown away because the
physicality of them isincredible.
The craftsmanship of them isjust wonderful.
Looking back at her story as auh Polish woman growing up in
Nazi Germany as a child, wewon't get into that too much,

(01:43):
but just so many thingsintertwined and interwoven from
her lifetime into this piecenow, into her work in these
pieces is just incredible.
And so Nathan and I thought wewould grab some incredible
moments from a podcast that shedid uh a while back on Why Do I

(02:04):
Make Art by Ursula VaughnWriting Scar.
And at the in the beginning ofthis podcast, which we will put
in the notes for the show aswell, so you can listen to the
whole thing.
Before things even start, sheasks the host, hey, I want to
read something.
And so that's what that veryfirst moment was that we played
as her reading.
And so now we're gonna kind ofunpack Ursula's why do I make

(02:26):
art?
And I can't wait to jump intothis, Nathan.

SPEAKER_03 (02:29):
There's so many gems in here, and I'm I'm really
excited to talk about this aswell.
We should we should uh sharethat we were planning on and
still are planning on doing anepisode, like we've got a
running list of artists we planon on doing episodes on in the
future, and Ursula's been on itfor quite some time.
And so we started to get intothe art 21s.
There's three or four fantasticum art 21s, the documentary.

(02:52):
And then when we came acrossthis, I was like, hey, Ty, this
is an entire episode right here.
So this is we're just gonnafocus on this sort of essay that
she wrote quite some time ago,and it's available online if you
just if you just look up UrsulaBon Writings Guard, why do I
make art?
Yeah, it's very easy to find,and you can find her reading it
in more than one place as well.
We're gonna be using the audiofrom the uh Art from the Outside

(03:13):
podcast to uh to share it in herown words.
But yeah, so I think you know,with this tie, I think w one of
the reasons why I was so drawnto this and and why I wanted why
we wanted to make this astandalone episode is because we
talk about this a lot in inother episodes as well.
But the the we talk aboutintention, we talk about

(03:33):
purpose, but just this thispersonal sort of you know code
uh from her of this is why I dowhat I do.
Yeah.
And as we get into it, you know,there's there's just as many
questions as there are answers,which is is beautiful in its own
way.
But I think just before we evendive in, just acknowledging the

(03:55):
the wisdom and and theimportance of being clear on why
am I doing this?

SPEAKER_01 (04:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (04:01):
What is the purpose of what I'm doing?
Because when we start withintention, whether it be with a
body of work, a p a piece, youknow, individually, or
holistically our practice as awhole, which is what she's
referring to here, I think thathas tremendous power to inform
you know what comes next and thework that follows.
So we're gonna kind of breakthis down.
We may not touch on each andevery one of these.

(04:23):
It's probably three minutes orso, you know, when she when she
reads it.
But we're gonna kind of breakthese down one by one because
they are they are dense and andsuper um, yeah, just just really
meaty little nuggets for us touh get into.

SPEAKER_06 (04:37):
Yeah.
Interestingly enough, I I can'tremember if it was the last
episode or the second to lastepisode we did.
We we talked about the exercisethat I do with uh the mentees in
my program for kind of writingyour why, you know, writing
yourself a personal statementfor why you make your art.
And so I think it's justserendipitous that this idea for

(04:59):
us to do this podcast dropped inour heads over the last week and
a half or so with Ursula becausethis is what she did.
And I think she did it 20 yearsago from the time of the
podcast.
Is that what she said?

SPEAKER_03 (05:12):
Whenever the podcast was recorded, I think it was a
few years back, four years ago,maybe.
Yeah, and I think she said she'dwritten it six or seven years
before that.
Six or seven at least a decadeor more.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (05:21):
Yeah, and think about that though.
She's an older artist in age, soshe wrote that far into her art
career.

SPEAKER_03 (05:30):
That's a great point.
Yeah, not in the beginning.
Yeah.
30, 40 years in, probably.
Yeah.
I would guess, and I can onlyspeculate on this, but I would I
would guess this is these areprobably things she's had been
thinking about for running now.
Decided to finally organize themand put them on place to be
shared with others.

SPEAKER_06 (05:45):
But one more thing, Nathan, before we jump in.
Sorry, I know that you'reexcited to get rolling on this,
but we do we would love to do aQA episode coming up pretty
soon.
So we get random questions thatare just fantastic all the time,
but they're random and they'respread out.
And we do our best to answerthem on Instagram or YouTube or

(06:05):
Spotify wherever you send yourquestions.
But if you have any questionsthat you'd love for us to talk
about, discuss, maybe even ourexperience with certain things,
send them to us via Instagram,YouTube, Spotify.
Instagram would be the easiestbecause we can collect them
pretty easily there, or you canemail us as well.

(06:25):
But send us your questions andthen we'll go through.
And if you send a question,please put your name.
And if you want us to share yourInstagram profile or your
website, we would happily dothat from the podcast.
So, you know, if you are NathanTurborg from Minnesota and you
send in your question, put atNathan Terborg is your

(06:46):
Instagram, or if you have awebsite, we're happily.
All right, let's do this.
Let's jump in and share yourinformation.
We'd love to do that.
Then others can check out yourwork as well.
Turborg.
I'm definitely gonna put aMuppets chef scene in there.

SPEAKER_03 (07:08):
That's how I always remember.
We've only been known each otherfor you know five years now.
All right.
Uh let's play the first one.

SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
Why do I make art?
Mostly to survive, to ease myhigh anxiety, to numb myself
with the labor and the focus ofbuilding my work.

SPEAKER_03 (07:33):
Ty, this is I mean the the we're gonna go by these
kind of kind of one by one.
This this first one just themoment I heard this in the
podcast, I was like, this iswhat we're doing.
Yeah.
It was you, 100%.
Well, I uh what I love about itis just the the idea of the the
work is the prize itself.
There's a a quote from uh fromTeddy Roosevelt.

(07:54):
He said, far and away, the bestprize that life has to offer is
the chance to work hard at workworth doing.
We're artists, we can agree thatart has value and is worth and
is worth doing, but I think thatjust you know, the the the idea
of the work being enough, thework being enough, the work is

(08:15):
in and of itself also thereward.
You know, any results, anyprize, you know, that that may
come is really just a bonus.
And I think that when you watchvideos of Ursula working, when
you talk about or when you whenyou when you hear her talking
about it, it's clear she hasfallen in love with the work
because it would be impossibleto make work at the scale, the

(08:39):
labor-intensive nature of whatshe does if she hadn't fallen
fully in love with the processand with the work.

SPEAKER_06 (08:47):
Yeah, if she didn't after the 400th splinter in her
fingers, she's done.
I'm tired of pulling thesethings out of my fingers.

SPEAKER_03 (08:55):
I feel like you're trying to bait me into talking
about process, which we agreedwe were gonna say.
Yeah, we're not gonna do it.
The next episode.
Right.
I'm not gonna, I'm not gonnatake the bait.

SPEAKER_06 (09:03):
But I I mean, I get it though.
You know, I'm not a I don't havea lot of anxiety in my life.
I'm not a very anxious person.
Uh, but chalk up any type ofcharacteristic that you have in
your personality.
Mine is more of like a dry, aninternal drive, and more of a
fear of not getting to where Iwant to go with that drive.

(09:24):
And so that's where the studiocomes in for myself, where she's
trying to numb this anxiety shehas, which I'm sure it goes back
a whole lot of years, probablyto the time that she grew up in
uh in in Germany as a Polishsomebody in a refugee camp.
So it's like there's probably ananxiety that was built in at an
early age that has existed allthe way through her adulthood.

(09:47):
And so I know those things forme, the studio becomes that spot
to just numb or escape from andjust focus to where nothing else
matters and just disappears.
And I love that she kind of hadthat in the beginning because
everything else follows.

SPEAKER_03 (10:03):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
Objects or the process by which I concretize my
ideas feel so good.

SPEAKER_06 (10:12):
Objects or the process.
That's interesting.
That's materials or the making.

unknown (10:20):
Yep.

SPEAKER_06 (10:20):
Feels so good.
Sometimes they both work reallygood together, but a lot of
times that really good neverkind of fulfills itself in the
end.
I'm in that right now where I'mlike, ooh, these materials just
feel incredible to work withright now.
But oh, this process is drivingme freaking crazy.
Or, man, this process feelsamazing right now, and I'm just
in a zone, but there's somethingmissing material-wise, and I

(10:44):
just can't find it.
I know I really have a dualitywith that, a massive duality.
I was I was on uh a video callthis morning with our dear
friend uh Moxanon Perkins inSpain and Francis Beattie in
Philadelphia and Gianna Tessone,currently in New York, but bound
to be in Scandinavia somewhereagain soon.

(11:04):
And I was talking about that.
It's like I set out with allthese things and these fibers,
and I'm having a blast, but Ican't figure out the process
with them.
And then the second the processstarted to feel good, now I'm
searching for more of theobject.
And it's like there's just thisbounce back and forth, and now I
finally a year later feel likethose two things are joining

(11:27):
each other, and I'm reallyfeeling good about both of them.
So they are being concretized atthis moment.

SPEAKER_03 (11:33):
I I like that you I like that that stuck out to you.
I like that you highlighted thatthe objects or the process.
It's not an and, it's an or.
It can be either one.
The the part of that quote thatI really zeroed in on was feels
so good.
And you know, you think aboutthat, you know, when an idea

(11:54):
comes together, whether it bethe object or the process
itself, when we have those ohmoments that we we talk about
all the time, that feeling is sogood.
Yep.
That feeling is so good.
And I was thinking back to ourLeonardo Drew episode when he
talks about being the crackaddict of art, you know, and
being being addicted to uh, youknow, I think in his case, just

(12:17):
completely consumed with withthe work and engulfed by it, you
know, in in his studio.
But when I hear that, I thinkabout chasing that feeling and
accepting that it's not gonnacome every single day.
It's not you know predictable,it's not something that you can
you know set your watch to byany means, but it does come at

(12:38):
some point.
Yeah, and when it does, that'swhat keeps us coming back.
That's what keeps me comingback.
Yep.
Sorry, I had something else onthat one.
I didn't I didn't say that.
Yeah, don't miss your notes.
They're right here in front ofme, in fact.
No, I was just thinking aboutyou know the the addictive
nature of of art when you'reabout this life and when you're

(12:59):
completely hooked on thatfeeling.
I was just thinking about thelast few weeks here as we've
been building a sauna in ourbackyard that's taken up a lot
of a lot of my studio time, andI'm uh having a fun, uh having a
really, really good time, youknow, in that process.
Thankfully, I've got some fullyqualified, you know, contractor
friend who's who's doing most ofthe uh the thinking as far as

(13:19):
laying things out and all that.
But oddly enough, I've actuallybeen cutting a lot of cedar uh
for the for the sauna with thecircular saw.
And as we've been pr preparingit for this episode, thinking a
lot about about Ursul's process.
But you know, I I just realizedthis.
I was just been really feelingreally crabby lately.
I've just been kind of blah.
And then I realized, oh yeah, Ihaven't been getting my studio,

(13:43):
I haven't been getting my fix.
So it would make sense that I'dbe a little uh little itchy, a
little twitchy, a little alittle crabby.

SPEAKER_06 (13:51):
There, I don't think there's an artist that exists
that wouldn't say, when I'm notmaking art, I'm a really
terrible person sometimes.
Whether that's as a friend, as apartner, as a spouse, uh, as a
sibling, if you're an artist andyou go a long time without

(14:14):
making art, and usually whenit's kind of not your decision,
it's just life forces you intothat pattern, you start to
realize that you're kind of anass in some ways.
I know that's my experience, andI know that because my wife has
told me to my face you need toget in the studio and make art
like now.

(14:35):
I would like to grow personallyto a point where I can still
navigate that without shortbreaks are fine.
Short breaks are fine, get awayto come back, but yeah, when
you're forced into not beingable to make, it's it's tough.

SPEAKER_03 (14:48):
It's hard.
The uh my friend who's who'sdoing the build with me, he
caught me with the saw makingsome completely unnecessary
cuts.
And he's like, What what are youwhat are you doing?
I said, I'm just trying to getto the day, Rob.
Just trying to get through theday.

SPEAKER_00 (15:07):
Because I invariably, especially with my
most monstrous pieces, run intointense anxiety moments from
which I have to unravel myself.

SPEAKER_03 (15:21):
Yeah.
So this one, I'm sure you'veheard it.
I'm sure most working artistshave heard a version of this.
But you know, when whennon-artists say something like,
oh, it must be just awesome.
It must be so fun to just makeart all day.
Right?
Yeah.
Which broadly speaking, ofcourse it is.

(15:42):
Absolutely.
But it's just it's encouraging,you know, that yet another
another reminder from one of ourheroes that those intense
anxiety moments are just part ofthe deal, especially when you're
making big things.
And I've talked about this alittle bit, but as I'm scaling
up with more sculptural work andrealizing we'll talk about this

(16:04):
in a little bit when we get tothe part where she talks about
her assistance being a family.
But you know, there are thereare physical limitations to just
being just being one person, youknow?
And the logistics of how is thisgoing to exist in space?
How is this going to stand up?
How is element A going tointeract with element B and hold
up element C?

(16:25):
It's it's a fun thing.
But it's just again, justanother reminder, like, yep,
this is this is just part of it.
And when we hear a legend likeUrsula say that, it's like, oh,
okay, cool.
It's not just me.

SPEAKER_06 (16:36):
I the the unraveling of myself, I understand to a T.
I remember a few years back, Iwas I don't stretch any of my
work until it shows or it'sgoing out the door, and then I
stretch it for storage reasons.
But a few years ago, I did atriptych, and I think it was 25
feet by 10 feet tall.
And but I I need to photographit, right?

(16:57):
And so I in my old studio I hadthe wall space to photograph it
on one wall if I wanted to, butI decided, okay, this would be
really this would be easier toput one piece up on the wall,
photograph it, then put thesecond piece up, and then put it
together and Photoshop as thetriptych.
And so I put piece up withgorilla tape because it's not

(17:19):
stretched and it's on a cementwall.
And so I was trying to findsomething.
So I had gorilla tape along theback, pushed it up while I was
on a table, and then put theedges up, and I've got this
piece up on the wall, perfect.
Get my lighting, set my cameraup, get ready to take the photo,
and what happens falls down,right?

(17:39):
That took multiple times to getit, and now there's three pieces
I need to do because it's atriptych.
And so that unraveling in thatmoment was insane mentally.
And then when V and I had ourshow at Art Center Museum in
Waco for our two-person show, Idid an installation and it was
about eight feet tall uh andit's chicken wire.

(18:02):
And uh oh my gosh, why can I notthink of the material that I
used?
Plaster.

SPEAKER_03 (18:09):
Plaster.

SPEAKER_06 (18:10):
Yeah.
And so I rented a U-Haul thatwas tall enough to fit it in,
eight feet tall to get it to theexhibition opening or install.
And I'm rolling it up.
I have a furniture dolly.
So I'm rolling it up.
Well, if inside is eight feet,the U-Haul has a door which sits

(18:31):
a few inches below.
So now I have to angle it on thecart while I'm on the ramp to
get it in.
And then when I stand it up,sometimes when we measure as
artists, we don't completelymeasure correctly.
So that eight feet was abouteight feet one inch.
So once it's sat up, it bent thetop of the piece.
So that unraveling is, yeah, weall know that feeling when uh

(18:52):
we're working with big work,even small work.
There's just times things justdon't happen and we just kind of
unravel in that moment.

SPEAKER_03 (18:59):
It's funny, it's funny you mentioned measuring.
I was just, I told my friend Robas we're doing this build, you
know, when you're buildingsomething properly, you it's
important, very useful that itremains in square and that those
measurements are correct,especially when you're framing
it out and and uh and laying thefoundation.
And I remember thinking at onepoint he was measuring,
remeasuring, remeasuring wherewe poured, you know, the

(19:21):
foundational cement pylons.
And I was just like, okay, thisis how you actually do it.
This is the right way to makesomething.
And how just I just realized howI had fallen sort of in the in
the the lazy trap of I'll justfigure this out, you know, at
the end.
Oh, yeah.
Which I always do, but that's alot of extra steps.
And you know, uh, bless blessDean's heart, my my frame frame

(19:43):
making wizard who's like, allright, what do you want me to do
with this?
I'm like, well, I'd like it tobe square if we can still start
with that.
But it's funny you're talkingabout that triptych, not to get
into personal story mode toomuch here, but I I or one one
upsmanship, but I was justthinking about the the triptych
that I uh sent to you sent toMunich unfinished with probably

(20:06):
more steps than I anticipated tofinish it there.
Once you got there, yeah.
Benjamin at the gallery wassuper gracious and let me do
that.
But then, you know, wanderingaround a uh strange city where I
didn't recognize any of thebrands or speak the language to
try and find the materials Ineeded to finish it.
Just a lot of anxiety moments.
Yeah, let's just let's just putit that way.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (20:25):
I have a saying that goes with measuring that I think
you might be able to use, andit's uh measure 50 times, cut
10.

SPEAKER_02 (20:34):
Do that sound about right to everybody out there.
That sounds that sounds aboutright.

SPEAKER_06 (20:38):
That's usually what happens to me.

SPEAKER_03 (20:39):
Measure twice and cut 30 times.
I literally have to remindmyself it's way easier to remove
more material than it is to addit back.
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 (20:49):
We've all tried to sometimes be added back, yeah,
but usually no.
That's not a fun day.

SPEAKER_00 (20:55):
Because I endure a hefty load of self-doubt.

SPEAKER_06 (21:00):
This this is a really good one, Nathan, because
there are some of us out therethat say that we don't struggle
with self-doubt.
And just saying that is kind ofstruggling with self-doubt
sometimes.
That's how I view myself.
Because the other day I wasliterally because I'm a four on
the Enneagram.
If any of you know theEnneagram, then you'll

(21:22):
understand this.
If you don't, you can look itup.
Not going to go into thebackground of the Enneagram or
anything, but but I'm anextroverted Enneagram, and
that's rare.
Because most fours on theEnneagram scale are introverted.
And so I'm extroverted, and Iwas kind of looking at you know
the different wings associated,like an eight-wing and a
three-wing, and these differentthings.
And it's like, gosh, I feel likeI'm a very confident person, and

(21:48):
I feel like I don't really needto have anybody lift me up or
push me up, and you know, thosethings.
And I was like, but gosh, Ithink that really does play into
my psyche.

unknown (21:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (21:59):
I think there is a self-doubt, and it's not a
self-doubt about who I am rightnow, it's a self-doubt of
getting to who I really hope I'mgoing to be at some point as an
artist.
So, not like as me as a person,as a husband, as a friend, as
you know, somebody's just whatit's there's the self-doubt of
am I going to get to the pointwith my work where it's going to

(22:21):
be where I really dream and hopeit will be.
Right.
And so that's where I think thatis, that's a hefty load to
endure because everything I'mdoing in the studio is the hope
and the dreams of getting tothat point.

unknown (22:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (22:37):
So that's just a big, big load that I carry in
the studio.
And so when I was listening tothis and thinking about it, at
first I went, I don't think Ireally struggle with that.
And then I was like, well, letme dive into my psyche.
Let me dive into my personalitytraits and things.
Let me look at Enneagram for anextrovert and the different
types of wings that areassociated with it.
So then I kind of dove into iton my own and went, no, I think

(22:59):
I do on a level that isself-doubt, overarching, but in
a smaller way that has a heavy,heavy load of impact with me
when I'm working.

SPEAKER_03 (23:08):
Do you have a five-wing or a three-wing?
That's where I'm not too sureyet.
Interesting.
Yeah.
I'm just going to say you have athree, because I'm a three with
a four-wing.
So I can definitely relate to alot of what you're talking
about.
I mean, yeah.
So I uh we actually probablycould do an Indiegram.
I don't know.
Maybe a lot of the audiencewouldn't be that interested in
it, but it might be aninteresting conversation anyway.

(23:31):
I I I know, I am certain that Ithat I have plenty of
self-doubt.
And as a three, uh, that's athat's the achiever, you know.
So I'm I'm uh I'm I'm walkingthrough life just trying to get
the next gold star to get thenext right piece of evidence
that I'm actually okay, youknow, and so I do have questions

(23:52):
and I do ask questions about notjust my work, but how I'm
showing up, you know, broadlyjust as a human being.
I was thinking about, you know,it's funny you mention when
people say that they don't haveany self-doubt.
When people say that to me, andobviously, as based on what I
just shared, I'm I'm I'mreceiving that information

(24:12):
through a certain lens.
Yeah, right.
But I put people immediatelyinto one of two buckets just
based on my read.
I'm not always right.
But most of the time when peoplesay that, my first response is
okay.
I think you're saying that.
I don't say this out loudusually, but I'm thinking that
sounds like something that onewould say to convince themselves

(24:36):
of that, because that's aconvenient thing to believe for
them.
Which is so so narcissism.
Maybe.
I mean, we're all tellingourselves the story that suits
us, and and that's that's partof the human experience.
But you know, occasionally Iactually believe people, you
know, or observe, like, oh, thatthat that's actually real.
I've got a couple of closefriends, one in particular, who

(24:57):
I don't think really does havemuch of any, you know,
self-doubt, and it serves themvery, very well.
I was thinking back to the theJack Witten episode that I did
where I was, you know, reallykind of unpacking that element
of uncertainty.
There's one quote.
So Jack said, There's so muchdoubt associated with painting.
I'm forever questioning myself,doubting my performance.

(25:19):
And this actually bleeds reallywell into the next part of what
Ursula shares.
Let's just actually play itright now.
Yeah, play it.

SPEAKER_00 (25:28):
Because I have confidence in the possibility of
seeing this work through.

SPEAKER_03 (25:33):
So that that relationship between doubt and
confidence, I think, is reallyimportant.
And it's something that I spenta lot of time on that episode
really thinking about and kindof unpacking.
But especially uh ding the bell.
This is our obligatory JackWitten reference for this for
this episode.
But, you know, obviously alsosomebody who had a tremendous

(25:56):
amount of self-confidence.
I don't think that there's youcould probably find, you know,
some artists that don't havethat, but not many, right?
We have to have an element oflike, in, in, in this, in spite
of the doubt and in Jack'swords, the questioning
ourselves, doubting ourperformance that we may be

(26:16):
experiencing, you know, it'sthat comp it's that combination
of confidence and doubt.
It's just a recurring theme, anda lot of artists that we've
discussed, you know, sort of soon the on the micro, you know,
what's right in front of uslevel, I don't know where this
is going.
That's doubt.
Now, it could be reframed asuncertainty.
I know you certainly experienceuncertainty, you know, when

(26:36):
you're doing what you're doingnow and and and pulling new
threads, figuratively and andliterally.
Literally.
But there's also the the the akind that's combined with a
confidence of I believe it'sgoing somewhere great, right?
On on the macro.
Yeah.
And that I think is sort ofthat, you know, delicate dance
that we all play internallyaround, okay, I'm gonna

(26:59):
experience, and this is justwhat I've accepted.
This is not something I'm tryingto change about myself because I
think it's part of just how I'mwired, you know.
I'm going to experience that.
And I do think that there's anelement of that that really
serves me, um, artistically forsure.
Um, but it really has to becombined with that overarching
belief of it's going somewheregreat.

(27:20):
It's going somewhere, right?
Like you said a couple ofepisodes ago, the work is taking
you somewhere.

SPEAKER_06 (27:26):
Well, I think that what she says here, she has
confidence in the possibility ofseeing the work through.
I think that's a very wise uhstatement built on years of
knowledge, just building intowisdom where I'm sure when she
was younger, she might have hadthe confidence of seeing the
work through, and then realizedover time, no, I have confidence

(27:48):
in the possibility of seeingthis work through because when
you're young, everything you do,you think is good.
Sure.
And I I know there's plenty I Iwas that way.
Every piece I did, I was like,yep, this is the one.
And now I look back and I go,that was definitely not the one.
That was off.
You know what I mean?
That just that was veryimmature.

(28:09):
It was an immature work.
So as you age in years makingart, you learn that some work is
not going to be seen through.
It's gonna be a roadmap to takeyou to the next body of work
that may be seen through ormaybe not seen through.
I mean, I've I've shared prettyopenly on the podcast bodies of

(28:30):
work that I did that I just itwas a year of nothing.
Like nothing happened to it, itdidn't move, nothing did it, but
I stuck with it because I knewit was gonna take me somewhere
else.

SPEAKER_03 (28:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (28:42):
So there's that confidence and the possibility
of seeing the work through.
So that body of work you'reworking on now, or that painting
or that sculpture you're workingon currently, may not be the
thing, but the possibility ofthe thing coming at some point,
that's where our confidenceneeds to completely lie.

(29:03):
So, you know, it's that thatduality of that non-confidence
and confidence.
Like I have no confidence withwhat I'm making right now.
I just don't.
It's new stuff, there's newthings.
I don't know, but I'm confidentof the possibility of it getting
there.

SPEAKER_03 (29:17):
I like that you highlighted that.
That did not stick out to mewhen I first heard it or read
it.
But where my mind is going nowis where she's at, where she was
at already, you know, when shewrote this.
I mean, it could by by anyobserver, could certainly be
argued she's already seen thework through.
Yeah.
Even if she stopped, you know,the day after she wrote this,

(29:40):
which obviously she did not, butthankfully, and still actively
making work.
But you know, that that to me,it kind of underscores a common
theme amongst people that havewhat I would call real, you
know, wisdom.
So dear listener, think ofwhatever great you know, writers
or th or thinkers read.
Resonate with you, I thinkthat's kind of a recurring

(30:03):
theme, a common denominatoramongst people that have a
version of wisdom, however youchoose to define that.
But it is sort of that like, youknow, it's a possibility, right?
In other words, the the the themore the more we learn, the more
we grow, the less we think weactually know, right?

SPEAKER_06 (30:18):
Yeah.
Well, and I think that's themagic for us of of Witten's
book, right?
Of Notes from the Woodshed, iswe get to we get to literally
follow that journey of all ofthat.
And here's such a wise, I mean,wise man, even in his younger
years, he was wiser than Iwould, I would probably say 90%

(30:39):
of the artists that I have read.
His wisdom at a young age wasjust insane.
Brilliant, brilliant man.
But you watch that just carryover into years and the
patience, the frustrations, thenon-confidence, but a full
confidence in the possibilities.
And that's one person out of allthe artists I've read, which is
a lot, he was putting all of hisenergy into the possibilities.

SPEAKER_03 (31:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (31:05):
And not the work at hand.

SPEAKER_03 (31:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (31:08):
He was constantly going, get me to it.
Hey, piece I'm working on, getme to the next piece.
Hey, get me to the there'spossibilities that are existing.
And he kept scrapping.
Ah, this isn't it.
Gotta go to the next thing.
Screw these.
I don't want to do what anybodyelse is doing.
I'm getting caught up in whatthey're all doing in New York
here.
I don't want to be them.
I want to be me.
I want to be Jack Witten.

(31:28):
I don't want to be Roshenberg.
I'm not going to be JasperJohns.
I'm not going to be, you know,and he would name those.
Everybody's doing that.
I'm not going to do that.
Is this going to hurt me?
I think it is, but I don't care.
Here we go.
You know, and I think that'swhat's given me even more
confidence is his voice nowconstantly in my head.

SPEAKER_03 (31:48):
And and a way to reconcile that ambition with
what it looks like to possiblyapproach that.
You know, as we not this hasbecome a witten episode again,
but we could have a year's worthof Witten episodes, maybe two.
We could.
We've got at least one morecoming.
We're going to have a special, aspecial guest on to uh to dig
into the book and witten aswell.

(32:10):
But yeah, I think just you knowthat that's you know when you
think about his writings to yourpoint from a very young age,
like all of them, you know, withthat with that self-doubt, with
that, you know, um that fear ofwhat if I don't get there, but a
tremendous level of ambition,both with the work and where he
saw himself going overall as anartist.

(32:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (32:33):
Because life is full of marvels, close to miracles.
Because I still don't know who Iam, because I'll never get to
know who I am.

SPEAKER_03 (32:46):
Yeah, so this one's high super.
Lot to unpack there.

SPEAKER_06 (32:49):
No, you go first, but lot to unpack.

SPEAKER_03 (32:52):
Well, I was just thinking about the the uh the
Socrates, I think it's Socrates,we can fact check that.
Socrates.
Uh Socrates to find yourself,think for yourself.
And you know, I was justthinking about how you know
making art affords us all theluxury of thinking for ourselves
in kind of the the purestpossible form.

(33:14):
We don't have a boss, there'snobody telling us what to do,
there's no right or wrong answerobjectively.
Like we we get to spend so muchmore time than the average
person, probably in thinking forourselves.
So uh if that's true, then theact of making art gets us closer

(33:37):
to knowing ourselves.
I think I've said this before,but you know, art has introduced
me to myself in a way that thatnothing else could.
I've learned things aboutmyself, who I am, how I really,
how I really operate, and howwhat I'm what I'm really
thinking about, and specificallywhat I'm trying to express, you
know, with the work than thananything else.

(33:58):
And I think that actually wasthe the Louise episode, you
know, when she said art is a wayof recognizing oneself.
You know, we we make the worknot always knowing what it's
about, and then the work tellsus what it's about and by
extension helps us betterunderstand what what we're
about.

SPEAKER_06 (34:17):
I mean, we've talked about this before, it was a
while ago.
It was probably the Louiseepisode.
Um so I'm glad you brought herup.
But the the Britishpsychoanalyst Donald Wincott, I
think Donald Wincott, who reallyis the one who is credited for
the true self-false-selfnarrative.
And, you know, listening toUrsula say this, you know, in

(34:39):
her soothing voice and toneafter talking about all the
other things up top, and thengetting to because I still don't
get who I am, because I willnever get who I am.
There's part of me thatdisagrees with that statement,
and then there's part of me thatunderstands that statement.

(35:00):
So I wouldn't say I fully agreewith it, because I really think
that's what that whole statementis, is kind of living in the
false self moment and still in asearch for the true self.
But to me, I was also a littlekind of sad when I heard her say
that like that struggle oftrying to figure out who she
really is.
And I'm like, Ursula, you'rebeing who you truly are.

(35:23):
Because what you have done tome, not just as an artist, but a
human being, when I see her workat a museum, I go to the DMA in
Dallas regularly and the Museumof Fine Arts Houston regularly,
and they both have an Ursulapiece.
And it's one of her pieces smallat the bottom, really big at the
top, and it just kind of growsup 15, 20 feet in size.

(35:46):
I've walked around those things306 degrees for I can't tell you
how many hours when I've beenthere and have taken video of
it.
I sit in front of it, I sit onthe ground and look at it up, I
get up close and I look down,I'm looking at every angle
possible.
But what that work does to meemotionally in a moment, like,
oh, I mean, I can't even explainthat awe and that love and that

(36:07):
spiritual energy that just likemakes me at times cry, at times
laugh, at times just go, how areyou this good?
You know, that moment in myhead.
And so I'm kind of like whenshe's saying I still don't get
who I am.
To me, personally, there waslike the sadness of like, are
you she's still wanting?

(36:29):
Is she still like what is thatemptiness that she's got there?
And then piggybacking that withbecause I will never get who I
am, was almost this feeling ofwell, she not gonna keep trying
to find out who she really is.
So it's it's really anexistential search in a way that
that's there.
But for me, I'm going now, Iyeah, I fully stoned and get who

(36:53):
I am yet, but I feel like I'mcloser than I've ever been to
getting who I really am.

SPEAKER_03 (37:00):
Yeah, I I I hear that as a level of acceptance
that is really beautiful.
And I I I understand whereyou're coming from there.
That that does make sense.
I think ultimately that is aquestion that only one can
answer for oneself, obviously,right?
It's not up to you or me oranybody else to say, no, you you
totally get you.
Right.
But the fact that that we havethe experience with her work

(37:24):
that we do just speaks to thepower of art, you know.
Um the the Walker here inMinneapolis has uh at least one
um piece of hers in thepermanent collection and had
this experience maybe about ayear and a half ago, the
exhibition that was that was upat the time didn't exactly you

(37:44):
know move me.
But the as soon as I I lookedaround into the permanent
collection and thought they hadthat out, I was like, it's gonna
be a good day.
It's still gonna be a good day.
So anytime you can look at art,it's a it's a good day.
It doesn't matter, it doesn'tmatter.
But you know, just to yourpoint, just you know, walking
around and every single squareinch has has something in it
that resonates, you know.
So even if she's in a placewhere she believes or accepts

(38:11):
that she may never fully knowyou know who she is, the power
of the work speaks to eachindividual in its own unique
way, which is it's what we'redoing, it's what we're trying to
do.

SPEAKER_06 (38:22):
Well, and I that this is where I I want to have
an intimate moment drinkingcoffee with Ursula on the couch
outside, you know, just sittingand talking.
And I want to know, like I wantto dig into that because that's
just me.
That's what I do.
And so it's like I want to diginto that, you know.
And I think having listened toand watched a few things with
her in it, uh, I I kind ofwonder too, if part of that

(38:43):
mentality is, you know, growingup as a child in a Nazi slave
labor camp and post-war refugeecamps.
I feel like in that situation,moving forward in life, you feel
like there's always a momentwhere everything that you have
can be taken away from you.

(39:05):
You know, that's traumatic nomatter how old you are.
Whether she was two, three,four, I don't know what age she
was when she moved, was able tomove out of that part of life.
But that's where her parents,probably most of her parents'
friends, were in those thatsituation, uh, extended family.
You know what?
So I feel like there's no waythat trauma doesn't add another
layer of could this be takenaway from me at any time?

(39:29):
I have to live life with such agratitude in the moment because
tomorrow that could change.
And I know there's a lot ofpeople that are going through
that right now in a domesticscale here in our own country
and overseas.
And I had a conversation with adear friend of mine uh who's a
US, first U.S.
citizen in her family fromMexico.

(39:51):
And we had a conversation at myfriend V's art opening the other
night about this fear that couldthis be taken away from me.
I've worked my I've worked solong to get to this point, and I
have a fear that this coulddisappear.
Right.
So everything I'm doing is witha different level, right?
Of feeding into thosepossibilities.
So I just wonder if that's stilla part of her internal makeup,

(40:15):
whether it's subconscious or forconscious that exists.
But I mean, that's where my mindgoes in these things because I
love I love story and I want toknow like what's the root of
that in your head?
Why does that is that part ofyour art?
Is that what goes into it?
And yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (40:29):
Small thought.
You want to you want to ask theannoying questions that we don't
like to answer ourselves.

SPEAKER_06 (40:34):
Yeah, but I'd rather not do it on a podcast.
I want to do it under a tree, bya lake, by a river, you know
what I mean, with a cup ofcoffee or a glass of wine.
Like I want to do it in thatmoment.

SPEAKER_00 (40:44):
Because my deepest admiration goes to those who
have made art that hasinterested me.

SPEAKER_03 (40:51):
Oh, that's a good one.
It's a great one.
I mean, you're you're you'retalking about the deep
admiration that you have for herand how much you would love to
just spend time, right?
Like I was thinking about, youknow, you've interacted
whatever, with some some famouspeople in different in different
you know, spaces.
I know when you did thedocumentary, you know, there are

(41:14):
certainly especially NBA fanswho would have who would love to
talk to you about just what itwas like to be in a room with
Steph Curry or or you know KevinDurant.
There now we've done our littleobligatory art breakfast for the
episode.
If you're not a sports fan,these these guys are are big
deals if you're you know,whatever, follow, follow the
NBA.

(41:34):
But I was just thinking aboutthere aren't very many people
that I would stalk through anairport if I saw them going the
other direction just to get achance to maybe say hello and
ask them a question like that.
But they're they're all artistsfor sure, for me, or musicians,
maybe, you know, but just likethat, that though those are the
types of people that I thinkwe're really drawn to because

(41:57):
there are so many, you know,just questions and and just
curiosities around hey, whatwhat about this or what about
that?
You know, the types of to yourpoint, the types of questions
that don't typically getdiscussed during an artist talk
or in a in a typical interview,you know.

SPEAKER_06 (42:13):
Now I'm getting mad at myself.
You're gonna know why when Ibring it up.
You're talking about stalkingpeople through the airport.
So my my art sister, my dearfriend V, who you hear me talk
about all the time, V No, andSam Levi Jones were went to
Chicago last week for uhTheaster Gates lecture and
opening, and they got to spendtime with him, who's one of my

(42:35):
absolute heroes uh in the artworld and in life, like not just
as an artist, but as a humanbeing hero.
And uh Mandy said, You shouldgo, you should piggyback.
And I thought, I don't want todo that.
And then everything in me waslike, I should just tell V, hey,
I'm gonna go, and I'll hang outwith other friends while you
guys do your stuff.
But I and then they got to spendtime with with Yester and with

(42:57):
Nick Cave, the artist as well,and some other people that I
just admire.
And now I'm beating myself upfor not chasing down the airport
and going, Hey, hey, hey, hey,do you have a few minutes for
you?

SPEAKER_03 (43:08):
For you up when you told me that story.
You didn't.
It was so out of character foryou because you are by nature
pretty bold when it comes tothat kind of thing.
But I used to listen to thisepisode and she's gonna be like,
Yeah, you totally could havegone.

SPEAKER_05 (43:21):
Do I want to say this right now?

SPEAKER_06 (43:23):
If V and I weren't as dear and close as friends as
we are, I wanted her to havethat really good time, her and
Sam, away in Chicago and nothave any other factor
interrupting just a great timethat they were gonna spend
together.
So you would have dominated thatconversation for sure.
Yeah, that's that's a fact.
So yeah, exactly.

(43:43):
I know.
Sam would have been yeah, let'sleave Ty home for this one.
Yeah, love it.
Love it.
Just the admiration goes tothose of who have made art that
has interested me.
Just a reminder, which Nathanand I talk to you about this on
a regular basis.

(44:04):
If there's an artist thatinterests you and just grabs
you, go research the heck out ofthem.
I don't I always hear artistsall the time that say, Oh, yeah,
I don't really read too muchabout art.
Oh, I don't really research thatmuch.
I really don't.
It's like, no, no, no.
If somebody interests you in amajor way, get the books, go see
them in a museum, watch adocumentary on dive, dive, dive

(44:26):
in.
Because if there's somethingthat grabbed you, maybe you have
something in common and their Dtheir art DNA can feed your art
DNA.
Yeah.
We all need food to live.

SPEAKER_03 (44:35):
Period.
That's a great physical.
I mean, you so you need to talkall the time about spending time
with your I'm sorry, I cut youoff.
No, it's good.
Cut me off, go.
Well, we talk all the time aboutspending time.
You you you this is one of myfavorite Thaiisms is you know,
spending time with my my deadheroes, right?
Isn't that how you or your howdo you say it?
My ghosts.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so whether the artists thatwould check those boxes for you

(44:56):
are living or dead, we may youmay or may never not ever
interact with them, you know,directly.
But there is so much, especiallyfor you know artists that have
you know made a dent and made animpact, there's a lot out there,
even the ones who existed longbefore these fantastic podcasts
and whatever YouTube videos thatwe have access to now.
But there's so much out if youjust literally put the artist's

(45:19):
name into good old Google or youknow the YouTube search engine,
you're probably gonna get somereally interesting results.
Yeah.
And get a chance to kind of youknow spend time with them and
get in their head.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (45:33):
Yeah.
The greatest artists in historydid that on a regular basis.
So why would you void yourselfof that wisdom?

SPEAKER_00 (45:41):
Because I want attention from those who make
good art.

SPEAKER_06 (45:46):
Yes, I do too, Ursula.
I do too.

SPEAKER_03 (45:51):
I when when I heard her say that, I was like, I I I
felt a sense of relief.
This could go into the wholeEnneagram discussion at some
point, but it was just it wascomforting to me that it's okay
to want this, that it's okay towant, you know, attention from
the people that I admire whomake the art that I enjoy the

(46:14):
most and and and respect themost.
That's all I had to say aboutthat.
It was comforting to know thatit's okay to desire attention
from those people.

SPEAKER_06 (46:21):
Yeah, I do.
I reach out to them, I say hi,whether they never respond back,
I send emails, I show up attheir studios.
I I mean, I showed up atChristopher Wool's studio in
Marfa a few months ago duringMARF Invitational.
He wasn't there, but Idefinitely checked.
Uh so it's like I feel like I'mthe type of artist that I will

(46:44):
sit down, I will have coffeewith you, I will talk to you, I
will hang out.
Now, I also know that artistswho are a lot further along than
me don't have the time, right?
I have time, I don't have tonsof time because I invest in a
lot of artists that have beenthrough my program and artist
friends and things.
Uh so I know and respect that ifthey don't get back to me, it

(47:05):
maybe they just don't have timeto give me the time.
And I'm okay with that because Iknow there are people I have to
say, I'm sorry, I just don'thave time.
And then there are others whereI'm like, Yeah, I do have time.
Let's go grab coffee.
I'll meet you on your waythrough Dallas and Houston.
Let's hang out, you know, andgive that time.
But reach out to artists thatyou admire, and who knows, maybe
you'll get lucky and you'll beable to just show up and do a

(47:26):
studio pop by one day and bringthem a cup of coffee and get
some knowledge you didn't thinkyou'd you'd have tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 (47:35):
And while we are fully aware that Ty and I are
probably not that artist foryou, we are going to do a QA
episode coming up soon.
So, you know, they may be lessaccessible or not alive anymore,
but we as an will happilyanswer, you know, whatever
whatever questions you have.

SPEAKER_06 (47:55):
Uh I mean you could and honestly ask questions.
Like I know, I know a lot ofyounger artists too are like,
oh, I'm too afraid to ask this.
I don't want to, you know, it'slike, no, no, no.
Trust me, Nathan and I haveasked a lot of questions, and
I've asked a lot of stupidfreaking questions that honestly
aren't really stupid.
It's the fact that we're artistsand we really just don't know

(48:16):
how too many things work.
And so we're constantly learningit on our own.
Uh, but I've always been onethat's not afraid to ask.
So I have gotten a lot ofanswers, and I have friends that
have answers that I don't have.
So if you ask a question that wedon't understand, we will
happily reach out and asksomebody else uh to find an
answer.
And honestly, in art, sometimesthere aren't really answers.

(48:38):
Sometimes it's just ideas ofthings that have worked for
other people.
May or may not work for you, butit may have worked for somebody
else.

SPEAKER_03 (48:47):
Curiosity is a superpower.
Yes, absolutely.
And having the question to beginwith is a great start, but
asking it, I forget who saidsomebody smarter than me said
the only dumb question is theone that doesn't get asked,
right?
Yeah.
Boldness is an act of genius.
Be willing to be a little feel alittle silly in the moment in

(49:09):
order to possibly learnsomething, not from us
necessarily, but from others,you know, who might have an
answer and might unlocksomething for you.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (49:18):
Because I like working with a group of
assistants who become anotherkind of family.

SPEAKER_03 (49:25):
I was just thinking, and this this comes from
watching a lot of those videosas well and seeing the staff
that is required to make thetype of work that she's making,
but she seems like such a greatboss.
Yeah.
Wouldn't you like I I would Iwould love to go and work for
free for her for uh uh as longas as long as that was needed.

(49:47):
I mean, just you know, the thenature of her work, of course,
requires multiple people, butthat that in of itself seems to
be a skill, you know,orchestrating multiple people
while still remaining in thework and in flow to make all of
the countless decisions thatneed to be made.
You know, you see some of thevideos of her, you know,
sketching out or writing, youknow, uh drawing right on the

(50:10):
wood where she wants hercutters, you know, to go to work
and do what they do with thewith the circular saw on the
cedar.
But it's uh it seems to be askill.
It's definitely a skill that Ido not yet possess myself.
I I have had, I don't have anyfull-time assistants by any
stretch, but I definitely haveuh a couple of people that will

(50:30):
come by for periods of time.
I got my my shout out to Jake,uh my oldest daughter's
boyfriend, who's um been helpingme out, you know, just for a few
hours a week here and there.
I kind of make my list of thingsthat I just need another human
being to um to move thingsaround and and do things for.
But I I really struggle with,you know, I just I kind of set

(50:51):
aside those days as like I'mjust doing the the logistics,
the literally the heavy liftingof what needs to be done to get
to the days where I can, youknow, be in flow and actually
make the work, you know.
But I she seems to have masteredthat skill of being a great boss
of the studio assistants.
I yeah, I I may never get there.

(51:11):
I I don't I do not know howpeople are able to, how artists
are able to do that, managepeople.
Um personality, I don't want todo that work though.

SPEAKER_06 (51:21):
I have zero I I do not want to do that.
Now, that doesn't mean I don'twant somebody to maybe stretch
my work someday or you know, putmy stretcher bars together and
do the little things that youknow take time that you just
kind of I don't want to do it, Iwant to keep painting, you know.
So someday maybe I'll I'll hirean assistant to do that stuff.
But everything else, to me, it'slike, no, I just want myself

(51:44):
here.
I am the extroverted four whojust wants myself in the studio.

SPEAKER_05 (51:48):
Right.
And I'm the introverted threewho's like give me a few people
to help with all this stuff.

SPEAKER_03 (51:52):
Someone's who's here who's who who I who I need their
help, right?
Who I'm paying to help me.
As long as your brain says it'sacceptable, you're fine.
Right.
They like they show up and andI'm just like, oh fuck, now I
gotta figure something out forthem to do today.
Well, no, the list is alreadyestablished in most cases, but
it's just that not being able tobe in my own, you know, little

(52:16):
little world that reallydisrupts my short circuits my my
ability to do what I love doing.

SPEAKER_00 (52:24):
Well, that's because I like the daily rhythm of going
to my studio, because it's aplace to put my pain, my
sadness.
Because there's a constant hopeinside of me that this process
will heal me, my family, and theworld.

SPEAKER_06 (52:46):
I like the daily rhythm of going to my studio.
Like there is a rhythm.
Yeah, there is a natural rhythmfor me at this point in my
career where it's like I I don'teven think twice.
I do my my daily morning routinewhere I have coffee and I sit on
my couch outside and I read, andthen I get to a point where I
just kind of put my book down.

(53:06):
I usually leave it on the couchbecause there's multiple times
in the day.
I'll go outside and sit on thecouch and just read for a little
bit and let the vitamin D hit myface.
And so, but there's this rhythm,and then I'm in the studio and
I'm doing things and I'm moving,and there's just this natural
rhythm.
And I would say for me, it's notreally because it's a place to
put my pain and sadness anymore.
You know, I think there was aperiod of time in my life where

(53:27):
that was what what the studiowas for me.
Now it's just the the I wastalking to um my buddy, uh
Moxananda, our buddy, today.
He's in Valencia, and we wereboth just talking about the
gratitude we have for being ableto make art every day, that we
do not take it lightly at all.

(53:48):
Yeah, it's no longer a placewhere I'm having to like
overcome things like trauma,healing, those things.
No, it's just a natural thing ofgratefulness and a passion for
doing what I do.

SPEAKER_03 (54:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, we talked about that inthe in the the last episode, I
think, where it's a place whereeverything has a place.
You know, it's it's whatever isgoing on.
It's not necessarily differenttimes, yeah.
Different phases, different,different periods for for
different people, but you know,there's there's a place for

(54:22):
that, you know, to to go backand sort of excavate, you know,
maybe some things, you know,from before.
But I just love, you know, justthat that sacred space where
everything has a place.
There's a purpose foreverything.
And that's something that I hadto learn and really just mature
a little bit as a human being,but also as an artist, in terms
of, you know, not requiring allthe conditions to be right, to

(54:46):
be feeling good.
Right.
And then that we talked aboutthat a lot in the last episode,
but just to be in a good, youknow, for have all the
conditions to be in place.
Okay, now I'm ready.
You know, it's like, no, it'sit's whatever is happening,
whatever I'm wherever I'm at iswhere I'm at, and it's time to
get to work.
You know, you know, that'sanother myth.

SPEAKER_06 (55:03):
That's another artist myth that I think when
you're younger as an artist, notin age, but in years making art,
you're you kind of have that,well, when I get to, when I get
the space that that's like amyth that once you get into the
next space, you're gonna reallyfeel comfortable and hit what
you're supposed to do.

unknown (55:20):
Right.

SPEAKER_06 (55:20):
No, you're gonna get into the next space and you're
gonna still be going, oh, if Ionly had more room, oh, if I
only had more height, if I onlyhad more concrete, like that's
just a non-stop.
I mean, you could be GerhardtRichter in a 40,000 square foot
uh space, and he's probablygoing, I wish I had 50,000
square feet.
Right.
And that's just so it's makewhere you are and make what you

(55:42):
make.
Don't be thinking about the nextthing, just be thinking about
the work that you're making.

SPEAKER_03 (55:47):
I had that, and it's a little embarrassing for either
of us to say this because we wewe both do have you know pretty
incredible spaces to work in.
But when I watched uh Ansome andsaw just like, you know, it's
always it's always what's next.
And that's part of just theambitious, I think, nature of
things, um, you know, in in acertain in a certain way.

(56:08):
But I was thinking, why whydon't I need a bike to get
around?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (56:14):
I can just walk from place to place.
I need a space that's so big Ineed wheels to get around.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (56:23):
Because it helps fight inertia.

SPEAKER_02 (56:26):
Awesome.
Insane.
Yeah, the best, you know,stogie.

SPEAKER_05 (56:31):
Riding his bike from piece to piece and pointing at
things.

SPEAKER_02 (56:35):
Just yep, yep.

SPEAKER_05 (56:36):
Keep up with me, camera guys.
Keep up with me, camera team.

SPEAKER_00 (56:40):
Because I can reach into the future with my work.

SPEAKER_03 (56:45):
So I I love this one, Ty, just because it's just
the the idea that, and I I I'mnot going to pretend to know
exactly what she meant by that,but my interpretation of that is
that the work will exist muchlonger than than we do.
I'm thinking about that.
There's one of the, I think it'san art 21 video, but where they
they follow the process of hermaking the bronze piece that

(57:08):
sits in front of BarclaysCenter.
Yes.
And I remember saying somethinglike, you know, they they tell
me this will last at least 2,000years.
Um, which at this point we canprobably all agree we'll, you
know, we'll see the end of theworld at the rate we're at.
But yeah, the just the idea of,you know, uh making something

(57:30):
that will outlive us, you know,is a way to reach into the
future.
And just just the idea, whetherit comes to pass or not, but
just the idea that we can makesomething today that somebody at
some point down the road, longafter we're gone, will
experience in some way is prettymagical.

SPEAKER_06 (57:50):
Pretty pretty amazing.
I think about this quite a bit.
Um, not that not that I justhave a fascination with death
and dark things, but I thinkabout it a lot into the future.
Like when I'm gone, like will mywork last six or seven
generations of family and stillbe in a home?

SPEAKER_03 (58:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (58:07):
Right?
With family I will never know,right?
That's like my niece andnephew's kids, or you know what
I mean, whatever down the road.
Well, will somebody have one ofmy pieces in their house, or
will it all be gone anddisappeared and nobody will have
it?
You know, because honestly, yousell the work to a collector,
they die, their kids either wantthe work of art or it goes in

(58:30):
the estate sale.
Depending on the kid, you know,it's there's just different
things to think about as anartist, and I do it all the time
because those are just thingsthat I like to think about.
My friend Jane is gonna bethinking about this like she's
gonna love it.
We love talking about these darkthings at times.
Um, we brood over them and thenwe go watch really sad movies.

SPEAKER_03 (58:54):
It is one of the things that has drawn me to
metal, honestly.
You know, I mean you think aboutsome of the most durable
materials that exist.
The sort of pessimistic side ofme sometimes thinks, well,
this'll be really hard todestroy when World War III
comes.

SPEAKER_06 (59:12):
Yeah, I mean, even if it ends up in a landfill, who
knows?
Yeah, it could still last.
Somebody will uncover it whenthey're dusting in their uh
disease suits two hundred twothousand years from now when
somebody leaves the silo and uhmakes their way out and finds
Nathan's piece.
What is this?

SPEAKER_03 (59:27):
The hazmat.

SPEAKER_06 (59:28):
Is that do you pronounce that terborg or
terborg?

SPEAKER_03 (59:33):
They'll they'll have to know me for half a decade to
uh to be able to figure it out.
Probably have to be reminded.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (59:39):
Because I constantly need to try to better understand
the immense suffering and painof my family that I never seem
to really understand.

SPEAKER_06 (59:51):
I don't have much for that, but if you want to
talk about it, feel free.

SPEAKER_03 (59:55):
Yeah, I do.
I mean, this actually goes backto when we were trying to
speculate.
As to what she meant by neverbeing able to understand or get
who she is.
Um I was thinking about thatBukowski quote when he said, an
intellectual says a simple thingin a hard way, an artist says a
hard thing in a simple way.

(01:00:15):
Such a beautiful quote.
Perfect.
Yeah.
Chills.
Perfect.
And you know, so just uh the theattempt that we all make in one
way or another to understand andreconcile pain, suffering,
especially generational pain,you know, that that she's you
know referring to.

(01:00:36):
Yeah, it's um it's hard.
You know, it's it's a it's ahard thing.
And when you look at the workback to us describing our
experience of of sitting withwith her work in person, it
doesn't need to be explained, itdoesn't need to be you know
explicitly stated what this isabout because she may or may not

(01:00:58):
know, right?
It's it's it's baked into all ofit or not.
Yeah.
But it's just that the thebeauty of that process of of
attempting to say a hard thingin a simple way, in really a
completely different language.
Yeah.
Right?
Like if you asked her to writean essay about what that process

(01:01:19):
has been like for her, uh, itmight be great, but it probably
wouldn't resonate or connect inthe universal language of art,
the way that her work does.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:01:32):
Well, and I think I mean there's a weight to her
work physically and emotionally.
You you can't escape it whenyou're standing next to one of
them.
Um, and there's so many physicalattributes that can take your
mind in in multiple, multipleways.
And to me, I feel like her workis wrapped up in not knowing a

(01:01:54):
lot of it as well.
And she even talks about, andwe're I don't we're not supposed
to talk about process becausethat's another episode, but she
goes into it with an idea, butno sketches, right?
She's very intuitive, and so alot of that process is you know
trying to better understandthese things that she doesn't
know.
And I think that's what alsoplays into the time it takes to

(01:02:16):
develop each piece.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:02:19):
The the time, the physical uh attributes that go
into making each piece.
Like if you see one of herpieces, you go, how?
And then when you watch theprocess and you're like, what?
Because seeing both, which isthe magic of art, if you get to
see the process, then you get tosee the final piece.

(01:02:39):
There's magic in between.
And then you get to sit in frontof it and just go, holy shit,
wow.
That one feels, even though it'sextremely heavy and physical in
nature, there's something thatfeels really movingly light
about this and joyful.
And then the next piece you cango to and go, that just freaking

(01:02:59):
crushed me emotionally.
Why did this piece?
I feel like it's all bearingdown on me.
I don't feel like it's liftingaway from me.
And so I think that power is inthat time in the studio that
it's taking for her to do eachpiece, and that she really is
mentally wrapped up and tryingto understand things.
It's a process, it's processing.

(01:03:20):
She's processing throughcreating, and it's coming
through.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:25):
I was gonna save this for our process episode,
but since you broke the rulefirst.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:29):
No, you did.
Well, you re-broke it just now.
I did.
I started it, you continued it,and then I broke it again.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:36):
We'll talk about this in that.
You're falling too, I'm sure,but yeah, I'll tell I'll own it.
It's all, it's all it's all it'sall us, buddy.
But uh yeah, no, just the the uhI remember her saying, I'm
paraphrasing here, but hersaying, you know, I never sketch
out even my large scale pieces.
They they just so they justevolve.
Which which is surprising Imean, you know, you you look at,

(01:03:58):
I mean, especially if you've ifyou've seen even just photos,
but certainly in person, youlook at the scale of some of
these pieces and and just toknow those just evolved and grew
uh as a product of the organicprocess, you know.
Yeah, one one layer by layer,you know.
I I think it's um it looks likeshe's using mostly four by four

(01:04:20):
inch, roughly, you know, cedarpieces, some some smaller, but
uh yeah, just literally layer bylayer.
And those the the the the largescale ones probably have who
knows, a couple hundred probablylayers, maybe more, you know,
where yeah, each layer was justan another decision on where

(01:04:40):
does this go and how does itgrow and where how does it
evolve from here?
It's it's amazing to thinkabout.

SPEAKER_06 (01:04:46):
Well, and Ursula, how are you trying to do that
even more?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:50):
And also because I want to get answers to questions
for which there are no answers.

SPEAKER_06 (01:05:00):
There are moments where her voice is very
soothing, right?
It's almost it's almost likeyour grandmother sitting next to
you and telling you a story.
Like it's soothing, it's veryshe's very personable.
I'm sure uh wrapped up in thatis a very heavy demand, right?
With her assistance totimelines, deadlines.

(01:05:21):
No, it needs to be this way.
I don't think it's as Louise asLouise, but I think there's some
of that in there because you'reyou can't get to where she is
with her work with not havingthat.
You just can't you can't just bethat, oh, you made a mistake,
let's move on.
But I also sense like a sadness,and I'm sure it goes back to

(01:05:43):
her, how she grew up in a way.
And I wonder too, becausethere's these existential
questions that she's constantlycoming to of I'll never find the
answer, I'll never really knowwho I am, I'll never and is that
because there was family lossthat had the stories?
Is that because you know, ofmoments that she's seen horror
and things that nobody shouldever see or think about it?

(01:06:04):
Is it because I want to getanswers to questions for which I
know there are no answers?

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:12):
This one got me.
Go ahead, sorry.
No, go, go.
This part got me thinking aboutthat James Baldwin quote that
you're probably familiar with.
The purpose of art is to laybare the questions which have
been hidden by the answers.

SPEAKER_06 (01:06:27):
Which is a whole nother that's a whole nother
podcast episode because that'sthat has right, it's James
Baldwin, who's one of the mostbrilliant human beings to ever
walk this planet.
Um, and one of the best orators,speakers, poets, writers that's
ever existed.
So how have we not done a JamesBaldwin episode yet?

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:48):
Well, it looks like we're gonna have to because I'm
in producer mode.
Let's add that to the list.
But yeah, I mean, it's just thethe that idea of I'm just just
to read what she's I want to getanswers to questions for which I
know there are no answers.
So it's just that that pursuit.
It's the I I want something thatI know is not possible, but the

(01:07:09):
awareness that that isn'tpossible does not prevent me,
does not prevent her fromcontinuing to search right away.

SPEAKER_06 (01:07:18):
Well, and the difference with that in the
Baldwin quote is the Baldwinquote is really speaking about
the difference between truth andfiction.
Right.
Right.
And especially on a politicallandscape where there have been
answers that have been put intoour heads that are not answers,
they're fiction.
Right.
But then they've been then overtime they've become truth when
they never were truth to beginwith.

(01:07:39):
Right.
And so he's like, what is thepurpose of art?
To put those questions out therethat make us ask, is this really
true?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, and I think for me, II don't see that being Ursula's
drive in that possibly.

(01:08:01):
I don't know her enough, maybenot as deeply.
I think hers has a lot morespiritual, um, personal effects
in there.
But I also haven't read her, soI haven't read enough and
watched enough to also be ableto do that.
That's from this episode.
That was from this episode only.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:19):
Yeah, yeah.
I would, you know, I think justif you the the idea of once a
question has been answered, itkind of closes the loop.
There, there's it's like, hey,nothing to see here.
Yeah.
But if we're trying to answer,if the types of questions that
we're attempting to answer areto Ursula's point, unanswerable,

(01:08:44):
then there is not a way to closethat loop.
There is not a that they arethey are indefinite, you know,
the and the number of answersand potential perspectives to
look at some of these thingsfrom.
And we're speaking broadly here,yeah, is infinite, you know, and
that's part of the beautifulthing.
That's part of why, you know,when I when you mentioned before
about, you know, kind of asadness there, and and I

(01:09:05):
interpreted that as more of anacceptance.
I think there's a lot of there'sa lot of beauty and and wisdom
just in that perspective of I'mI may never get to any version
of an answer, but I'm going tokeep asking those questions and
I'm going to continue to try andanswer them, make my best
attempt, you know, piece bypiece, work by work, to get

(01:09:29):
closer.
Yeah.
And it feels like a good placeto land the plane.

SPEAKER_06 (01:09:34):
Just dive into Ursula people.
She is amazing, like absolutelyamazing.
I I hope there's a day I get tomeet her and say hello.
Uh, next time in New York, I mayjust have to grab a figure out
what she likes to drink and justshow up at the door and knock.
Um, if I hear Saws running, I'mjust gonna knock until like they
somebody finally answers thedoor because then I know she's

(01:09:55):
there.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:55):
I mean, there are multiple people who could answer
the door, you know.

SPEAKER_06 (01:09:58):
That's what I'm that's what I'm hedging my bets
on.
Somebody's gonna open the door.
Brought coffees for everybody.
Five minute break.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:05):
That's funny.

SPEAKER_06 (01:10:06):
Yep.
Uh don't forget to send us yourquestions for QA.
Uh, we really do, we reallywould love to have a
conversation uh where we justare laughing and spitballing and
talking about the questionsyou're bringing us.
Um, funny questions, seriousquestions, art questions,
questions about what we're doingwith our work or where we're
going, um, or anything.
Yeah.
Send them to us.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:28):
Thanks for listening or watching or watching this
episode of Just Make Art.
And join us next time forwhatever we talk about in the
next episode.
Yeah, we'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:40):
Bye.
Awesome.
Joy pump it up, pump it up, andpaint.
Keep it going, keep it going,sunshine.

SPEAKER_06 (01:10:48):
And rain, raw bass, and you go back to little bit
before my time.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:53):
Okay.
I had the tape.