June 26, 2025 • 49 mins
Have you ever felt like your artwork knows more than you do? In this intimate, unplanned conversation recorded during a Montana retreat, Ty and Nathan explore the vital yet often overlooked practice of soul care for artists.
Surrounded by the sounds of birdsong and nestled in Montana's rolling landscape, we dive into what happens when artists intentionally step away from their studios. More than just a luxury, these moments of pause—whether through travel, immersion in nature, or simple daily rituals—fundamentally transform our creative practice and the work that emerges from it.
Drawing wisdom from Mary Oliver's poetry collection "Redbird" and Jack Whitten's studio journals, we unpack what it means to create "not for the sake of winning, but for sheer delight and gratitude." Oliver's observation that "it is a serious thing just to be alive on this fresh morning in this broken world" reminds us that pausing to notice our surroundings isn't just pleasant—it's essential to developing our artistic voice.
We share our personal soul care practices, from morning reading rituals and mindful walks to the transformative power of travel and trying uncomfortable new experiences. The conversation explores how these moments help us break free from achievement-oriented creation and return to our work with renewed vision. As Whitten noted, "Nature does not think"—it simply exists. There's profound creative wisdom in learning to sometimes just be rather than constantly do.
Whether you're struggling with burnout or simply seeking to deepen your creative practice, this conversation offers practical inspiration for incorporating soul care into your artistic journey. Take a moment with us, slow down, and discover how the small pauses might actually hold everything you need.
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@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Okay, you ready.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Well, not really.
But I mean, are we ever ready?
I already told everybody whatusually happens when we're
getting ready to start, and Ijust witnessed it.
You went to get a book to bringa quote.
Then 20 minutes later you cameout with mocktails.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
It wasn't 20 minutes, but if you're going to include
that, you need to say how tastyit is.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
It is very delicious.
Not a Paloma, it's a Naloma.
So non-alcoholic Paloma, it's aNaloma.
I think it's super years nowwith my brother-in-law, lamar,
(01:03):
and a group of guys who becomegood friends and invited Nathan
to come on this one with us, andso we've been floating the
river and fishing.
You were tired of being thetoken artist.
I was tired of being the tokenartist in a group of
entrepreneurs and I neededanother artist with me.
But we were floating the riveryesterday and Nathan was fishing
(01:23):
I can care less about fishingso I was writing, uh, poetry and
just observing everythingaround me.
Make sure you include a clip ofthe I will definitely trout
that I got.
I will put up a photo of thetrout that Nathan caught and
released and uh and released,and I do have some video of you
on the river untangling yourline, which is what I spent most
of my time, which is what wespent most.
(01:44):
But we just thought we'd sitdown and just share with you and
just spend some time hangingout.
And and I've really beenreflecting since we've been here
on soul care, and I thinkthat's something that we both
know is a necessity for artists.
We've talked about it, sprinkleit in in certain episodes and
things but really that thatgetting away to come back, which
(02:06):
we all know when we leave andwe go somewhere and we are
leaving our studio, which I didnot want to leave my studio the
last week, especially since youjust got settled.
I just got rolling and settledin the new studio.
I didn't want to leave, but Iknow the impact that going away
and coming back will have.
There's that reset, thatrefresh, but when you're doing
(02:27):
it in a location that is justfilled with absolute beauty that
you cannot not be inspired andit just fills you when you come
back, it just tends to dosomething, absolutely, yeah, I
mean I think anytime, anytime.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
That's why travel is so great, right, it's like
anytime we can get out of ournormal environment, our normal
world where we don't have toworry about I mean even the
studio, all the things, all theseven crying babies, yeah, that
are that are calling our name orour own, you know, homes,
obviously, where there's alwaysstuff to do.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
To take care of.
You know, there's a lot to besaid for getting away, no matter
what you're doing.
For getting away no matter whatyou're doing, but I think,
especially given what we'redoing and the type of work that
we're doing, how intense it canbe, how all consuming it can and
should be yeah, I think thesetimes like this are incredibly,
incredibly valuable.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
So when I brought Thanks for inviting me to come.
Yeah, I'm glad you're here.
I brought art supplies with me.
You know I brought littlesketchbooks and notebooks.
I know you brought yourjournals and books, and we
brought stuff to still bementally in an art space but
really just disengaging from thedaily activities of everything
else, in a space where the airis completely beautiful and
(03:36):
fresh and clear, enjoying thingsthat maybe we don't get as much
of in our regular life.
And one of the things I've beendoing while here is just I've
been devouring the book Redbirdby Mary Oliver for probably the
past three months.
I've read it multiple times butI picked it up again to read
(03:57):
and a poem, one of her poems,just hit me so hard that it made
me dig deeper into the work,something we talk about with our
own work on a regular basis,and that you find that artist
that you love, really really diginto the work and then, and so
I really started digging in hard.
So I just have a few things tojust kind of share and love to
(04:18):
hear what you because I'vetalked about it briefly but I
haven't really shared like themoments from the book, uh, and
and there's going to be a livereaction.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I mean we, in terms of most of our shows, this is a
low prep, very low prepsituation.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
You know it was really.
It's yeah, very.
It's just like.
This is a free thought, freethinking moment.
Um just Barate in the processand we said we wanted to do
something while we're here.
Why would we not?
We never get to be together inperson?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
this is our first time recording yeah, let's not
our mics on and sharing space,but our first time, uh yeah,
recording in the same area, sameso room so we thought, oh,
let's just kind of talk aboutsome thoughts and things that
are going on.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
And then you said, oh , you should share some of the
things you've been thinkingabout with redbird.
And so I'm just going to read,I'm going to paraphrase I want
you to get this book and read it.
So I'm not going to read fullpoems maybe one but I'm just
going to paraphrase some moments.
This one is from a poem calledInvitation and it says oh, do
you have time to linger for justa little while out of your busy
(05:19):
and very important day, for thegold finches have gathered in a
field of thistles for a musicalbattle to see who can sing the
highest note of the lowest.
Do you have time?
Not just for the sake ofwinning, but for sheer delight
and gratitude.
Believe us, they say it is aserious thing just to be alive
on this fresh morning in thisbroken world.
(05:42):
I beg you, do not walk bywithout pausing to attend this
ridiculous performance.
It could mean something.
It could mean everything.
It could be what Rilke meantwhen he wrote you must change
your life, the beginning.
Do you have time to linger fora little while out of your very
(06:04):
busy and important day Numberone, not for the sake of winning
anything, but the first sake ofjust sheer delight and
gratitude.
And I love, don't walk bywithout pausing.
And I could mean something, butit could mean everything.
I just thought about this withbeing an artist, but it could
(06:25):
mean everything.
I just thought about this withbeing an artist.
Like one of the things we'retrying to do and I'm trying to
do is slow my mental processdown.
Slow, that's the studio, that'sour space, where we walk in,
and time should stop.
And it's like I want to slowthe process down so that I am
able to be aware I am able tonotice things that are as small
(06:47):
as the goldfinches, arguing thatshe's observing where she lives
.
We can hear the birds behind us.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I don't know if I'm actually going to pick that up,
but I hope it does.
As you're reading that I'mhearing the concert behind us,
it could mean something.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
It could be something small, but maybe it's
everything.
So I was was reading that andI'm like that's what I'm trying
to do with my own work in thestudio and make those pauses
longer than shorter, becausewhat I discover or what I hear
the work telling me or I'm ableto find in that moment could be
(07:24):
something, but maybe it'severything.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
The part of that that really resonates with me.
The moment you said it, I justit just clicked, but not for the
sake of winning, but for thesheer say that again For the
sheer delight and gratitude.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Say that again For the sheer delight and gratitude,
For the sheer delight andgratitude.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
That's something that it's.
It's perfect for where I'm at,and what I kind of brought into
this this time away was just I'mso, I'm, I'm, I'm.
I'm understanding that more andmore about myself, but I'm all
about, I'm wired for achievementevery day we talked about this,
you and I last night are on thefire.
But like every day, you know,not on purpose, but just by my
default mode is I'm waking upand thinking what can I achieve
(08:14):
today?
What can I accomplish?
You know, believing the liethat I have value because of
what I do and not because of whoI am.
Yeah, so, even on a, on aretreat schedule, where there's
nothing that I have to do,there's still, I mean, hell,
even the fact that we're doing.
I'm glad we're doing this, butthis was another.
(08:36):
Oh, yeah, While we're there, wecan get a pot, Maybe we can get
a couple episodes.
Yeah, you know, maybe I can, youknow.
And so it's really not for thesake of winning, but for the
sheer delight and gratitude.
I mean, even what we're doingright now, just to, you know,
get real specific about thisexact moment.
But we're just having aconversation for sheer delight
and gratitude.
This might not be the mostperfectly constructed outline
(08:58):
we've ever used, and that's okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah.
So that's just a such animportant reminder, both here
now when we are all of us ableto get away and take a break,
but even more important whenwe're in it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And she I didn't read the partthat she follows up with on that
, because she says but for sheerdelight and gratitude.
Believe us, they say it is aserious thing just to be alive
on this fresh morning in thisbroken world.
She's like listen, don't youknow this?
(09:33):
That just the fact that you'realive on this morning in this
broken world, you should havesome delight and gratitude
anyways.
Yeah, don't do things for likeyou should already, and that's
gratitude anyways.
Yeah, Don't do things like youshould already, and that's the
whole thing is like listen.
That's what I love about MaryOliver observing nature.
Listen, the birds don't care.
Yeah, they're singing everymorning, no matter what.
(09:55):
Yeah, raining, hailing, snowing, they're still singing their
songs, right.
And so I love that analogy ofwe get to be alive.
We should also be doing thesame thing each fresh morning,
and I know for some of us that'sa lot more difficult than
others, depending on where weare and what we've been through.
But I always say this toartists too like man, you should
(10:18):
have some sheer gratitude andthankfulness that you have this
ability to do these things andgo deep into them and explore
them and give those gifts to theworld.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
That reminds me of something that was said around
dinner last night Pressure is aprivilege, pressure is a
privilege, pressure is aprivilege.
So even the things that,whether they be external
pressures, whether they beself-invented internal pressures
, plenty of those.
(10:55):
Yeah, no, I'm raising my hand.
I thought you were waving Wavethis way up in the distance.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Hey, I thought you were waving to a horse in the
field or a white tail deer orwhatever's hanging out over here
, I gotta look.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I was raising my hand .
I was raising my hand for, youknow, self-imposed internal
pressures, mostly self-imaginedand not even real, but the
pressure to do something ofsignificance is in itself a
privilege and something to bethankful for.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Okay, this poem I've read multiple times and it never
jumped out at me the way it didwhen I read it in marfa
recently and I was sitting thereone morning and I went oh,
that's my philosophy on art, howdid I never notice this before?
And it's a very simple poemcalled Small Bodies.
(11:45):
I'm going to read this fullpoem because it's really short.
And she says and for those thataren't nature lovers, tough
luck.
You're getting a lot of naturepoetry today and I don't care,
you need it.
Okay, it's called Small Bodies.
It is almost summer In the pond,the pickerel leap and the
(12:05):
delicate teal have brought forththeir many charming young, and
the turtle is ravenous.
It's hard sometimes, oh Lord,to be faithful.
I am more boldly made than thelittle ducks paddling and
laughing, but not so bold as theturtle with his greasy mouth.
I know, you know everything.
I rely on this.
Still, there are so many smallbodies in the world for which, I
(12:27):
am afraid, the line that jumpedat me was I know, you know
everything.
I rely on this.
And the first thing that jumpedin my mind was me standing in
front of one of my works of artand studying it deeply, silently
, and knowing that my work knowseverything I rely.
(12:53):
My work knows more than I do,yeah, and I rely on that and so
I wrote oh my gosh, this is myphilosophy.
This has been my growingphilosophy over time, by
studying, by looking, by askingquestions, by discussing work.
Like everything is in the workfor me to discover and we talked
(13:13):
about this last week in thelast episode with Leonardo drew
like that study and discoveryand all those things that's in
the work.
The more we read, the more welisten, the more we journal, the
more introspective we are, themore we ask questions of each
other as artists, the more weseek out artists that know more
or further along than us and askfor wisdom from them.
That all feeds into ourexperience.
(13:35):
When we're alone in our studioand we're looking at our work
and we're studying it, we haveto realize, like the work knows
everything, it's going to tellus where things are going.
We have to be so in tune withwhat's happening in our work
because so many times we'reoperating in our subconscious
(13:55):
when we're creating our work,it's not our foreconscious.
That is the understanding partwe recognize every day.
There are things happening thatare coming from memory what
we've seen what sticks out, whatcolor patterns may our brain
may be picking up on whatcompositions?
So there's things in the workthat we don't even know we're
putting in there right, and Iread that and I was like, oh,
(14:19):
and it's taught, it's titledsmall bodies and I think, like
small bodies of work have moreto tell you about the large body
of your lifetime of work.
Each time of working on a bodyof work in my lifetime, those
are small bodies of work thatmake up the whole, but every one
of them is guiding me to thenext.
How much am I doing what wejust read in the last poem, read
(14:45):
in the last poem and reallytaking the time to stop and
notice and listen and look andbe appreciative and allow it to
really speak to us and to allowsomething to speak to us.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
We have to.
We have to be able to listen.
We have to, which means we haveto stop talking.
Much like conversation.
If I'm going to hear you, ifI'm going to try and understand
what you're saying, I need tonot be talking for sure and
ideally not be thinking aboutwhat I'm going to say next.
And it's no different withobserving the natural world or
observing our work.
You know, as you're talking,I'm thinking about the
(15:15):
difference between, you know,scientific studies and and
scientific experiments.
You know, think about thingsthat happen in the natural world
.
It's like the differencebetween jane goodall being
embedded with the chimpanzees,right, gorillas and, yeah, yes,
and just watching and justtrying to go to extreme lengths
(15:38):
over long periods of time tojust get them comfortable with
her presence from a distance, tostill behave the way that they
normally would.
Yeah, contrast that with youknow, animal studies in a lab,
right?
many which have been done yeah,unnatural, you know environments
that are very much constructedand engineered to test a certain
(16:03):
outcome.
Right, we want to be more inthe former than the latter.
Yeah, we want to be more.
And of course there is a timewhen, if we're talking about our
work, of course there's.
There are times where we aregoing to test and retest and
keep experimenting, for sure,but it's the observing and just
sitting with what is, withouttrying to affect or change the
(16:27):
outcome.
It's a really good practice forourselves as human beings who
are interested in continuing togrow and evolve as people.
Yeah, is just observing.
Hmm, why?
What is Nathan experiencingright now?
Why what is Nathan experiencingright now?
And speaking the third person,you know, not like an
(16:47):
egotistical right, right, youknow, athlete or performer, but
but in the in the context of,like, this is a I'm observing
myself from that objective thirdparty, you know perspective,
looking at myself as, withoutidentifying with, with the self,
right is what is Nathanexperiencing right now?
And just checking in withourselves.
You know we happen to be in anamazing environment where we are
(17:08):
completely removed from, youknow, the day to day, which
makes it so much.
All the conditions are in placefor us to be able to, you know,
sit in that space, um, but whatI'm interested in talking about
, and thinking about today aswell, ty is like how we can, you
know, have these moments andreally protect moments like this
(17:30):
in the day to day as well,because these are unique
experiences that may they don'tcome around.
You know, I don't get to dothis on a super regular basis,
you know.
So, I guess, if I was to throwit back to you in the form of a
question, you know what are someof the things I've got, some
that I'll share as well, but Iwant to start with you what are
some things that you do on likea day-to-day basis to have those
(17:53):
moments of of, of rest, ofsitting, of recharging?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Well, I mean daily.
I try to read every morning andit's about 90 percent of time.
I mean, there are some morningsI'm so eager to get in the
studio that I bypass reading,yeah, and I'm straight in there
to start working on something.
But that's that's.
That's rare, because for me Ineed that.
I don't need the cup of coffeefor caffeine in the morning.
(18:24):
It's really an enjoyable moment.
Yeah, I mean I drink a lot lesscoffee than I used to, but it's
like there's something aboutthe the smell feeds me, the
taste feeds me.
I love it.
There's something about holdingthe cup with my book, like that
.
That just gets me prepared in agreat way.
Mentally removes any, you know,worry about anything that could
(18:47):
be happening.
But for me it's just a momentright now.
There are definite days where Ineed to go, stand outside and
feel the sunlight on my face for10 minutes.
You know, cause that just weall know.
I mean that's very healthy todo and I do go on walks
frequently and usually I'mlistening to music without words
when I'm walking classicalmusic, jazz but for me that's
(19:08):
just a.
It may be in a neighborhood notlike this, but I have sunlight,
I have green, I've got thebirds flying around and I can
breathe free, fresh air, andthat's something that, for me,
is just really.
This is you'll understand thisone any animal people out there
gonna understand this justpicking up cash and giving them
(19:31):
a hug you know what I mean, mypuppy just picking them up and
holding them, not going out andcollecting from all the people
no, not holding my, my littlepuppy, my studio assistant, and
just giving them a hug, likethere are.
There are these moments thatseem so small, and I think
that's what mary oliver's reallygetting at in these things is
like listen, there's asimplicity in this.
The simplicity is all thesethings that are around us to
(19:55):
provide beauty and provideobservation, like watching this
robin, while we're talking,continually move from place to
place, and he's observing usyeah, observing us or she's
watching what we're doing.
Like there's these mystical,magical things around us every
day, no matter where we live,that are supplemental to life,
(20:17):
but they're supposed to beingrained into what we do.
To be ingrained into what we do.
There's supposed to be momentsto look at the blooming
wildflowers next to you, blowingin the wind, and notice that
and watch it and wonder about it.
But what that does for yoursoul, even in those few minutes,
it's a very mystical, powerfulthing that takes you deeper into
(20:40):
you.
Yeah, I truly believe that and Iknow that's that's what she's
saying in this entire book islisten, this is easy, but I know
how hard it is.
Yeah, listen, this is here foryou too, if you're willing to do
it.
Yeah, those are a couple ofthings for me.
Those are a couple of thingsfor me.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
I want to talk about the, you know.
So, for me, I think that thethe challenge that I have is
first acknowledging that I needto rest, Like I think there's.
(21:29):
I just think of it in terms oflike there's.
There's proactive rest andthere's reactive rest, which
could otherwise be called breaksor whatever.
If I am, when I am consistentwith my you know morning
routines and blah, blah, blah,like that's the proactive, you
know charging the battery, youknow sharpening the ax, you know
, before getting into it, andreally being intentional about
protecting that time on thefront end, because oftentimes,
(21:49):
once I get into it, I'm into itand it's, it's.
Everything perpetuates.
The next thing you know, and soso that's a big part of it is
is, to your point, like havingcertain just natural points in
the day where that happens, youknow, no matter what.
Yeah, I think that on thereactive side, that is just as
(22:10):
oftentimes more important for meis to simply recognize all
right, I need to step away.
Yeah, I need to.
I need to at least sit down inmy, you know, studio chair, I
need to pull out my, my, my labnote, you know, yeah, hard, and
I need to at least write somethings down better.
(22:32):
Yet get my creative director inmy lap and just sit, before I
even start to feel like I've gota.
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
yeah, I'm a doer, everybody that has an animal or
a creature at home, whether itbe cat or dog, they know exactly
what we're saying right now.
It's.
It's a magical feeling whenthat person that loves you
unconditionally, that littlecreature, that when you just
give them that hug and sciencealso tells you cortisol levels,
(23:04):
stress, anxiety levels, yeah,and that just that moment you
know like put you back, yeah, ona level playing around and yeah
but it starts with recognizing.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
It starts with just recognizing like, oh, nathan is
pressing right now, nathan istrying trying to, and I and I
I'm getting better at catchingmyself in those moments where
I'm not listening, I'm notresponding, I'm trying to make
something.
Yeah, I'm trying to push, push,push, which there are times for
(23:37):
it.
Does that?
That does have, you know, meritat times, but their listener
may or may not have that incommon with myself.
But I think it's justacknowledging for each of us,
like, okay, what are my littleyellow flag moments that I can
catch and realize, oh, it's timeto set the, just to step away.
(24:00):
Yeah, to go for a walk, to sitdown and read something.
You and I, we talk about thisall the time, what our
journaling practices do for us,and I've got a number of
different types of journaling,I've got different journals for
those things.
But on the tactical side, when Iget stuck with the work, it is
(24:23):
that studio log and it's writingdown.
Once I am settled, once I canobserve objectively, as
objectively as possible, onsomething that I've just
materially changed or donesomething to, even if time or a
lot of it has not yet passed,but just observing, sitting,
listening, and I like to justwrite down everything that comes
(24:46):
to mind that I could do.
Yeah, I mean, at any point, onany given work that we're doing,
there's any number of forks inthe road that have not just an A
or B, but right, there's aninfinite number of things that
we could potentially do, and soI'll sit and I'll write down all
right, here are then whatever.
Sometimes it's a handful ofthings, sometimes it's, you know
(25:07):
, 12 or 15 things.
Yeah, and then I'll sit somemore without writing and just
say, okay, now I'm just going tocross off the ones that you
know, no bad ideas on the, onthe just capturing portion, but
then getting into all right,what, what really makes, what do
you need?
(25:28):
Dear peace in front, like, andhaving that conversation as
opposed to just continuing to bein motion.
You know we were talking aboutthis last night as well, this
might be interesting to kind ofcircle back on, but I was
sharing with you how I have a,really when I'm in in this.
That's why being away from thestudio is so valuable, because
when I'm in the studio, when I'min my space, I I have this
(25:48):
compulsion to always be movingand always be working, which,
again, is not a a part of methat I'm trying to stop right or
short circuit altogether.
I think that that is, you know,generally positive, but it does
prevent me from being in tuneand recognizing when it's time
to just breathe and sit and notbe in perpetual motion and
(26:14):
action.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Right, there's another poem that she writes
about.
Just start at the time.
She wrote at the time inamerica, that was, that was
going on, and I think it waswhat time frame is this it was
right after the iraq war, okay,started weapons of mass
destruction, etc.
Etc.
And so she was just kind ofwriting about what she thought
(26:38):
people would remember about ourcountry at that time and that
she's heartbroken for what shethinks people remember.
But one of the things that shementions is you know what, if
everybody had a little bit morehumility, empathy and stopped to
take the time to noticeeverything more, what that would
(27:00):
do to the community as a whole,the community of humanity, of
human beings, took the time tonotice the wildflowers, notice
the robin perched on top of thebarn chirping.
No, like what would happen ifeverybody collectively, yeah,
did take those moments to stopand notice more often.
(27:23):
And her are, she thinks it wouldhave a lot greater impact than
one would ever know.
And but you think about justthat idea in its own.
I think that's part of what ourresponsibility as artists is is
to create things that allowpeople to take a moment to stop
and think in a different way.
(27:44):
Yeah, right, it's almost as if,you know, we're kind of
creating some of that ability toget people to come back to
something by what they saw, orreturn to something or move
ahead to something.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Written 35 years ago.
Could have been writtenyesterday.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Right, exactly, let's see it was 2008 actually.
Okay, yeah, so, but I'll betthat poem was written around
that time.
With this it got published,yeah, 2008 so yeah, so I'll jump
in with this.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, the um the book that I bought brought.
You did buy it, I did, Idefinitely paid for this yes.
The book that I brought with isNotes from the Woodshed, which
I've already done an episode onwe're going to circle back to as
well.
I am going back through this.
I'm especially excited.
(28:38):
So Ella and I are youngest.
We're taking a trip to New Yorknext month.
It's primarily she loves theaterand music.
It's gonna be mostly broadwaycentric, but we're gonna see the
whitton show at at mama, so I'msuper, super excited for that.
But I've been rereading these,which is a great thing like to
read whitton's journals whilealso doing whatever my own
(29:01):
version of reflection andjournaling it's it's.
It's really cool.
Yeah, so this is something.
This is from page 82.
It's remarkable what time willdo for your head for years of
hard work.
Later I discover what I wastrying to do.
So what sticks out to me aboutthat, in the context of what
(29:21):
we're discussing today, is justthe benefit of time and space.
And we're not going back to ourstudios and the things that
we're working on.
I mean, I'm never when I'm home.
I don't ever spend more thanone day out of the studio
(29:49):
Sundays, yeah, maybe Sundays.
You may not even have a singleday where you don't want at
least walk in your studio andknow that it's right on your
problem Not now and so just thebenefit of having some space
between what we're doing andwhen we consider what it even
means or, more importantly,what's coming next or what it's
(30:10):
inspiring or what it's what it'sleading to.
A couple pages later uh, jackwrites I take my.
This is from 1975.
I take my cue from nature, evenwith color.
I take my cue from nature, iepresenting an all-over tonal
range with occasional patches ofhue.
I want to put the fear of godin these paintings.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
I want to evoke a spiritual, magical, cosmic
existence with a materialconnection, emotionally charged
that's one of my favoritesections in the entire book
because it absolutely definesjack whitten for me, because of
who I have learned he is and howI have been brought into his
(30:54):
process and way of thinking andway of infusing cosmic right, he
, he says cosmic, quite a bitall the time, all the time and I
love just how he's saying Iwant to invoke the fear of god
into them.
Viewer, curator, gallery owner,museum director that's who he's
(31:19):
talking about and other artists.
Yeah, like he, he wants it tobe so spiritually in Bocan right
that it elicits the fear of Godinto them and lots of different
ways, because you learn more inthe book all the things that
he's fighting or dealing with orstruggling with outside of,
outside of his work, that areart world generate.
I just love that there's afocus and a calm focus of a calm
(31:46):
and very intense mentality intomaking the work that he's
making at that time and that heends up discovering right down
the road.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah, yeah, and I think about, you know, his whole
practice around.
I don't know what, I can'trecall exactly what year he got
the place in Crete, but once hehad that was an annual, you know
, sort of pilgrimage for him andthat's a place where he would
go and be completely away fromhis painting for a couple months
(32:17):
, a few months, you know, andwow, I mean to have something
like that again.
Whatever it is for each of us,whatever we're able to to, to
make, you know, possible orbuild into our lives, but taking
our cue, taking his cue fromnature, in order to do that,
you've got to spend some time init.
And so you think about thecompletely different environment
that he consciously put himselfinto and being in a completely
(32:40):
different part of the world Imean so much of.
If you've gotten this book yet,if you haven't, you need to.
It's, it's so, so good.
And since doing that episode andI couldn't have been more
strong in my insistence thatpeople get into this book I got
a lot, of a lot of people, youknow, hit me up and DM me saying
, oh, I'm so glad yourecommended that.
I really I haven't yet hadanybody be.
I really didn't dig it too much.
(33:01):
Like you will love this bookand if you don't, if you really
read it and don't love it, Iwill uh, I'll give you your
money back, I will buy it foryou and but you have to give it
to somebody else.
Yeah, if you didn't really loveit, you know.
But you think about that timeaway and you know we did our
Leonardo Drew episode a fewepisodes back or episodes, I
guess we did it in two parts.
But we talked as well aboutDrew's practice of traveling to
(33:23):
different parts and how thatreally helps him to develop his
what Say it.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
You just threw me for a loop, calling me out like
that on an instant.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
It's the word that I teach you about the other day.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Here's our problem with this podcast everybody and
Nathan and I talk about this offcamera.
I'll be full in to explainingand discussing something and it
elicits new thoughts and ideasin him, yeah, and then he is
gone figuring out all these newthings while I'm talking, and
(33:58):
then there's what were yousaying?
So I just totally and I do itall the time Nathan's going and
I'm like, oh, hold on a second,wait, this, that, that, oh.
And then all of a sudden youget the and what is it?
And you go oh, I was just 500fucking miles away in my head.
We're both just waiting for ourturn to talk.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Let's just be honest about it.
I mean, it's really just likeare you done yet?
Okay, here's what I've got,this is the importance of
finding.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
This is literally the importance in the world in
finding that artist friend, yeah, that you're able to make
disappear and go deeper and findnew things and then say they're
okay.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
I was trying to cue you up to hear the word that you
pronounce in your.
I'm not going to saymispronounced, but pronounce in
your own way, that's a lot ofwork.
That's a couple.
There's a couple.
Okay, you said we it came uplike seven times in the drew
episode.
It's antenna, oh, antenna.
Okay, now you know how to sayit, I got it.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
That's what I was trying to get you to say, antana
.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
There, it is Antana.
All right, Our regularlisteners go back and listen to
Ty say Antana in the drill.
Okay, but that's it.
Bring this back.
That was his whole thing about.
If you're going to be areceiver.
I'm paraphrasing here, but it'sa good idea to put yourself in
(35:20):
different places.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
So you can receive far more than you would be able
to in one spot Right.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
So that's what, that's what he's done in
traveling to all over the world.
That's what what Witten wasdoing with his regular trips, um
, you know, to Crete and, uh,you know, gone fishing.
And what's cool too about whenyou get into jack story too.
Um, I don't know that he didany painting in crete, but
that's where he did, um, most ofhis sculptures was in crete,
but that makes sense to me.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
100, that makes absolute sense.
He's in crete, he's in greece.
Yep, is I?
I don't know if the history ofsculpture I'll have to look this
up was formed in greece.
I mean, I'm sure it came from,uh, african nations and tribes
and worked its way into Greece.
But Greece is known for famoussculptors and you know a lineage
(36:11):
of incredible architects andsculptors, so that influence, of
course, would be absolutelyprevalent.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And we talk about this all the time, ty, but I
think, you know, that's one ofthe things that's really so
energizing about being away fromthe studio, where we have our
whole little world.
You know, we have everything,all the colors, all the tools,
all the materials, you know,whatever at our disposal, and
getting out of our regular spaceis just doing something
(36:39):
different.
You know, like I was uhobserving you yesterday while
everybody else was was fishing.
Uh-huh, ty's sitting in theboat and he's not I'm not,
that's not my thing, but he'ssketching, he's observing, he's
listening, and I would guessthat you were able to observe
and absorb certainly more than Iwas in that environment,
(37:03):
because I'm thinking about howto fly fish, which is really
tricky, and I was focusing ontrying to learn how to do
something that I didn't know howto do.
But anyway, so, getting out ofyour space and doing something
that you don't normally do, wewere waiting for a boat earlier
this morning and I, just a bunchof people were talking and then
(37:24):
, as is my introverted nature,I'm like how can I get away from
the people and go?
Can I do something?
Like I'm gonna be on a pontoonfor a good amount of time.
Yeah, uh, trapped, that's okay,that's, that's strong, but not
a lot of options to go wander upand just be alone in my own
little little world.
So I saw this glorious pile ofof driftwood, you know, and that
(37:48):
I had to climb up to kind ofget to, but you know, made a
little driftwood, you knowsculpture and jacklyn would have
been in heaven and not beenable to leave I thought about
jack.
I did too.
That's the first thing Ithought about.
Yeah, she would have had afield day and there was some
gorgeous, gorgeous pieces.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
She would have figured out a way how to rent a
U-Haul and drive it back toMichigan.
A hundred, percent.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Yeah, but so just the value of getting into whatever
that looks like I mean, it couldbe just the space that you're
happening to be in, but butdoing something that's different
than you know, what you'renormally doing, has tremendous
value, absolutely.
It's that much easier whenyou've completely removed the
option of doing what younormally do.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
I think there's something for putting yourself
at times in uncomfortablesituations, yeah, and I'm not
saying like something that youshouldn't be there or it's like,
but putting yourself inopportunities to learn new
things that you're uncomfortablewith, right, uh, and I would
say if america was better atbeing around people they're
(38:48):
uncomfortable with, there'd be awhole lot more community and
not as much fighting and arguingand hate being spewed.
So I think in life they're like.
The first time I came toMontana, I spent a day to
experience fly fishing.
I could care less about fishing.
Yeah, and honestly, my guide onthe river knew that, because
(39:08):
every time the little indicator,which is the little floater
thing that sits on the waterwhen it goes under, that means a
fish is on the hook and you'resupposed to, you know, pull the
fish is on the hook and you'resupposed to, you know, pull the.
And he would say indicator,indicator, indicator.
Ty, how long has your indicatorbeen underwater?
Cause I've got, and I'm lookingat the trees and I'm looking at
(39:32):
the wind, old, bald eagle, youknow, and it's like cause I just
, but I did it and I spent a day.
It was out of my comfort zonebut I, you know, I tried
something new and I think thatthat does absolutely impact who
you are as a person withexperience.
Whether you like it or not, youdid it.
It's you know.
New foods, I mean, I'vetraveled all over the world.
I'm a very picky eater here athome, but when I travel the
world I eat everything.
I've eaten some of the craziest, wildest things in Africa, in
(39:57):
Eastern Asia, that in smallvillages and refugee camps that
you would never try, and I'vetried them and some of them have
gone.
I love this.
But that experience, even innot liking it, experience it
with somebody else, with otherpeople it does develop you as a
(40:18):
human being in ways that arevery special.
Did you have any other Wittenyou wanted to share?
Well, there was one more.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Yeah, and it's just it's because I'll Witten all day
long.
We can, we will, we will dowell, We've got, at least we
will Witten of uh, of that with,with Jamel it's going to be my
new thing.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Hey, you want to Witten for a while?
Let's do it.
What?
Speaker 1 (40:37):
page.
It's kind of like Topheringyeah, you missed that, yeah,
anyway, what I love about this,so some of what's in here are
just, he's got studio logs forentire years and he may have
just, you know, a lot of theseare just one line entries from
entire days and entire weeks.
So this is the 8th of March1993.
Four words Nature does notthink.
(41:05):
Nature does not think, natureexists, it just is.
Yeah, it just is.
That's what's so fun about,it's so fascinating about the
natural world, you know, as awhole.
But I was just as interested I'mnot too far from you there I
was interested in trying, youknow, fly fishing and having,
but I was just as interested I'mnot too far from you there.
I was interested in trying, youknow, fly fishing and having
that experience.
But, um, I was just asinterested in watching the, the
(41:26):
raccoons on shore and themuskrats and watching the way
the bull snake, you know, madeits way across the top of the
water, and the egrets and theswallows and just all of
everything else that we got achance to observe and experience
yesterday.
It's, but it's not, it's notthinking, it's just existing,
(41:47):
it's just living, it just is,you know, and I think that when
we are at our best as artists,that's what we're doing.
You know it's.
It's the, it's the act of justbeing, of just responding to
what's in front of us and whatis.
And the less I'm thinking thebetter, because my mind says a
(42:13):
lot of ridiculous things andmost of them are not true or
relatively useful whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
There's a.
I was reading, I was goingthrough quotes this morning so I
wanted to share a Nick cavequote with somebody that's here
with us.
And as I was going through mynotes trying to find one on
vulnerability which there'squite a few from Nick cave I
came across one that saidsometimes we need permission to
just be and not do.
Yeah's what nature.
It just is.
(42:39):
Yeah, it's not doing, its beingright.
And sometimes we do needpermission.
We need somebody to tell us hey, nathan, quit doing, just be.
Right now and I have thisconversation with ours I'm like
you're overdoing, you'reoverthinking, you're over
worrying, you're over pressuring.
Just get in there and just do abunch of shit, just let it flow
(43:05):
, don't.
Don't worry, it's good or bad,all that stuff Like the Warhol
quote that we're based on.
But sometimes, but sometimes,we do need that person to let us
know hey, it's okay to go spenda month flailing around and
being horrible.
Yeah, because that next monththere could be something very
(43:25):
beautiful yeah, you know so Ithink the do you have anything
else?
Speaker 1 (43:29):
yeah, I do.
Okay, I got a closer, I have aclosing thought, but hit it okay
, let me go first, yeah yeahyeah.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
So it's one more poem which I just love.
There's some oh man, get it redbird poems by mary oliver and
this one, the pulitzer, actuallyfor poetry.
This book, which makes sensebecause it's incredible, this is
mornings at blackwater.
This is a pond near her home.
Mornings, mornings atBlackwater.
(43:58):
For years, every morning, Idrank from Blackwater Pond.
I love that picture, just thatstart.
For years, every morning, Idrank from Blackwater Pond.
It was flavored with oak leavesand also, no doubt, the feet of
ducks, and always it assaged mefrom the dry bowl of the very
past.
What I want to say is that thepast is the past and the present
(44:21):
is what your life is, and youare capable of choosing what
will be, my darling citizen.
So come to the pond or theriver of your imagination or the
harbor of your longing and putyour lips to the world and live
your life.
What, what I want?
(44:45):
The past is the past.
The present is what your lifeis.
We've talked about that a lotin the podcast, with our trauma
and recovery and the things thatwe've over.
The past is the past.
Our life is the present rightnow, and you're capable of
choosing what that will be.
Yeah, my darling citizen she'ssaying, you who are of the same
(45:06):
world?
I am, yeah, we are citizens ofthe same world, the same
humanity.
Uh, come to the pond, the riverof your imagination or the
harbor of your longing.
A few different, uhdescriptions there, three
different bodies of water.
Yeah, that she's talking aboutthe pond, which is small and
right there it's, at yourdoorstep.
The river of your imagination,the thing that's constantly
(45:28):
flowing and and going, yeah,right.
And then the harbor of yourlonging, like the place where
you come to dock, yeah, theplace where you come to stay.
What are you longing for?
What do you need to sit andrest in?
Right, those, those layers?
Yeah, that she's painting there.
Do these things put your lipsto the world?
(45:48):
Yeah, like that's a verysensual, sure, uh, actionable
thing.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Put your lips to the world and live your life, yeah
if you are actually going to putyour lips to one of those
bodies of water, start with theriver.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
You don't have that much that the duck feet.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Pond water should be third on that list, probably
maybe second if the harbor issalt water.
But still, like pond watershould not be your preferred
natural cocktail if you're justgetting started.
But yeah, no, that's, that's so.
It's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
I, I do need to get that, I'm gonna it's it's a must
, I might just, I might juststeal it from you.
Well, that you cannot do, but Icould.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
I bet I could manage cut to us wrestling.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Yeah, that's the end of the show and scene.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
No, I think the thing that I wanted to, to close on
just as an idea was, was justthe I uh, I think just how do we
make this, you know, applicableto everyone anytime?
We already kind of talked aboutit, but just getting out of
your natural space, getting outof your natural you, um, and it
(47:01):
can be as simple as a walk, itcan be as simple as going to,
you know, a park or just, ifyou're not an outdoors person,
just a different place, just awhatever patio of a coffee a new
coffee shop.
Totally and just going to go,putting yourself in an
environment that you're nottypically in and just seeing
what comes up, when you are ableto sort of escape the trappings
(47:25):
of the thick of it, right where, where you're spending most of
your time and where you'regetting your mail, so to speak.
Yeah, man.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Well, I don't know what you are all doing today,
but I hope but I hope that thisimpacted you at least in a way
that would make you re-evaluatetime a little bit, re-evaluate a
separation of things for you inthe studio that will make you
just, even if it's just walkingoutside, like you said, and just
(47:56):
letting the sun hit your faceand experiencing just the
existence of what is beingalongside us, always doing
Because we all operate in aharmony together, we're all here
in the same space at the sametime, right, and there is a
harmony to that, and I think weneed to be a part of that
(48:17):
harmony in a very silent andreflecting way more than we are,
and that's something that I'meven challenging myself to do.
And sometimes it does take aweekend away.
Yeah, you know, next to therolling hills and the bluffs and
Montana, by the river, but Iwould like it to be more about
me just recognizing it regularlyand taking a longer escape away
(48:40):
somewhere else.
But take a break, go, go dosomething to come back.
Take a walk, go drink a glassof wine in a cafe that you
haven't been to before, or justdo something.
Uh, highly encourage that.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
That's a pond water If you're feeling some pond
water join us next time for ournext episode of just make art.
Yeah, I'm ready to go journalsome more yeah, I'm gonna go
right.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
All right, beautiful, I think that's a fun episode.
Yeah, I don't know if I can getup.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yeah, you're gonna have to oh, I didn't get the
book that I've counting you didgo up to get Witten.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
That was the whole reason you went upstairs,
remember, and then you gotmock-tailed.
Oh, did we hit record?
I did, yeah, good, so I'm gladwe got that.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
See if you like it.
I'm going to get the book thatI meant to get.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Oh, okay, I'll see you in 20.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
But I might come back with a tasty treat.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
So you never know, sure you will.
Okay, you ready.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Well, not really.
But I mean, are we ever ready?
I already told everybody whatusually happens when we're
getting ready to start, and Ijust witnessed it.
You went to get a book to bringa quote.
Then 20 minutes later you cameout with mocktails.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
It wasn't 20 minutes, but if you're going to include
that, you need to say how tastyit is.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
It is very delicious.
Not a Paloma, it's a Naloma.
So non-alcoholic Paloma, it's aNaloma.
I think it's super years nowwith my brother-in-law, lamar,
(01:03):
and a group of guys who becomegood friends and invited Nathan
to come on this one with us, andso we've been floating the
river and fishing.
You were tired of being thetoken artist.
I was tired of being the tokenartist in a group of
entrepreneurs and I neededanother artist with me.
But we were floating the riveryesterday and Nathan was fishing
(01:23):
I can care less about fishingso I was writing, uh, poetry and
just observing everythingaround me.
Make sure you include a clip ofthe I will definitely trout
that I got.
I will put up a photo of thetrout that Nathan caught and
released and uh and released,and I do have some video of you
on the river untangling yourline, which is what I spent most
of my time, which is what wespent most.
(01:44):
But we just thought we'd sitdown and just share with you and
just spend some time hangingout.
And and I've really beenreflecting since we've been here
on soul care, and I thinkthat's something that we both
know is a necessity for artists.
We've talked about it, sprinkleit in in certain episodes and
things but really that thatgetting away to come back, which
(02:06):
we all know when we leave andwe go somewhere and we are
leaving our studio, which I didnot want to leave my studio the
last week, especially since youjust got settled.
I just got rolling and settledin the new studio.
I didn't want to leave, but Iknow the impact that going away
and coming back will have.
There's that reset, thatrefresh, but when you're doing
(02:27):
it in a location that is justfilled with absolute beauty that
you cannot not be inspired andit just fills you when you come
back, it just tends to dosomething, absolutely, yeah, I
mean I think anytime, anytime.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
That's why travel is so great, right, it's like
anytime we can get out of ournormal environment, our normal
world where we don't have toworry about I mean even the
studio, all the things, all theseven crying babies, yeah, that
are that are calling our name orour own, you know, homes,
obviously, where there's alwaysstuff to do.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
To take care of.
You know, there's a lot to besaid for getting away, no matter
what you're doing.
For getting away no matter whatyou're doing, but I think,
especially given what we'redoing and the type of work that
we're doing, how intense it canbe, how all consuming it can and
should be yeah, I think thesetimes like this are incredibly,
incredibly valuable.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
So when I brought Thanks for inviting me to come.
Yeah, I'm glad you're here.
I brought art supplies with me.
You know I brought littlesketchbooks and notebooks.
I know you brought yourjournals and books, and we
brought stuff to still bementally in an art space but
really just disengaging from thedaily activities of everything
else, in a space where the airis completely beautiful and
(03:36):
fresh and clear, enjoying thingsthat maybe we don't get as much
of in our regular life.
And one of the things I've beendoing while here is just I've
been devouring the book Redbirdby Mary Oliver for probably the
past three months.
I've read it multiple times butI picked it up again to read
(03:57):
and a poem, one of her poems,just hit me so hard that it made
me dig deeper into the work,something we talk about with our
own work on a regular basis,and that you find that artist
that you love, really really diginto the work and then, and so
I really started digging in hard.
So I just have a few things tojust kind of share and love to
(04:18):
hear what you because I'vetalked about it briefly but I
haven't really shared like themoments from the book, uh, and
and there's going to be a livereaction.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I mean we, in terms of most of our shows, this is a
low prep, very low prepsituation.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
You know it was really.
It's yeah, very.
It's just like.
This is a free thought, freethinking moment.
Um just Barate in the processand we said we wanted to do
something while we're here.
Why would we not?
We never get to be together inperson?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
this is our first time recording yeah, let's not
our mics on and sharing space,but our first time, uh yeah,
recording in the same area, sameso room so we thought, oh,
let's just kind of talk aboutsome thoughts and things that
are going on.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
And then you said, oh , you should share some of the
things you've been thinkingabout with redbird.
And so I'm just going to read,I'm going to paraphrase I want
you to get this book and read it.
So I'm not going to read fullpoems maybe one but I'm just
going to paraphrase some moments.
This one is from a poem calledInvitation and it says oh, do
you have time to linger for justa little while out of your busy
(05:19):
and very important day, for thegold finches have gathered in a
field of thistles for a musicalbattle to see who can sing the
highest note of the lowest.
Do you have time?
Not just for the sake ofwinning, but for sheer delight
and gratitude.
Believe us, they say it is aserious thing just to be alive
on this fresh morning in thisbroken world.
(05:42):
I beg you, do not walk bywithout pausing to attend this
ridiculous performance.
It could mean something.
It could mean everything.
It could be what Rilke meantwhen he wrote you must change
your life, the beginning.
Do you have time to linger fora little while out of your very
(06:04):
busy and important day Numberone, not for the sake of winning
anything, but the first sake ofjust sheer delight and
gratitude.
And I love, don't walk bywithout pausing.
And I could mean something, butit could mean everything.
I just thought about this withbeing an artist, but it could
(06:25):
mean everything.
I just thought about this withbeing an artist.
Like one of the things we'retrying to do and I'm trying to
do is slow my mental processdown.
Slow, that's the studio, that'sour space, where we walk in,
and time should stop.
And it's like I want to slowthe process down so that I am
able to be aware I am able tonotice things that are as small
(06:47):
as the goldfinches, arguing thatshe's observing where she lives
.
We can hear the birds behind us.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I don't know if I'm actually going to pick that up,
but I hope it does.
As you're reading that I'mhearing the concert behind us,
it could mean something.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
It could be something small, but maybe it's
everything.
So I was was reading that andI'm like that's what I'm trying
to do with my own work in thestudio and make those pauses
longer than shorter, becausewhat I discover or what I hear
the work telling me or I'm ableto find in that moment could be
(07:24):
something, but maybe it'severything.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
The part of that that really resonates with me.
The moment you said it, I justit just clicked, but not for the
sake of winning, but for thesheer say that again For the
sheer delight and gratitude.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Say that again For the sheer delight and gratitude,
For the sheer delight andgratitude.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
That's something that it's.
It's perfect for where I'm at,and what I kind of brought into
this this time away was just I'mso, I'm, I'm, I'm.
I'm understanding that more andmore about myself, but I'm all
about, I'm wired for achievementevery day we talked about this,
you and I last night are on thefire.
But like every day, you know,not on purpose, but just by my
default mode is I'm waking upand thinking what can I achieve
(08:14):
today?
What can I accomplish?
You know, believing the liethat I have value because of
what I do and not because of whoI am.
Yeah, so, even on a, on aretreat schedule, where there's
nothing that I have to do,there's still, I mean, hell,
even the fact that we're doing.
I'm glad we're doing this, butthis was another.
(08:36):
Oh, yeah, While we're there, wecan get a pot, Maybe we can get
a couple episodes.
Yeah, you know, maybe I can, youknow.
And so it's really not for thesake of winning, but for the
sheer delight and gratitude.
I mean, even what we're doingright now, just to, you know,
get real specific about thisexact moment.
But we're just having aconversation for sheer delight
and gratitude.
This might not be the mostperfectly constructed outline
(08:58):
we've ever used, and that's okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah.
So that's just a such animportant reminder, both here
now when we are all of us ableto get away and take a break,
but even more important whenwe're in it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And she I didn't read the partthat she follows up with on that
, because she says but for sheerdelight and gratitude.
Believe us, they say it is aserious thing just to be alive
on this fresh morning in thisbroken world.
She's like listen, don't youknow this?
(09:33):
That just the fact that you'realive on this morning in this
broken world, you should havesome delight and gratitude
anyways.
Yeah, don't do things for likeyou should already, and that's
gratitude anyways.
Yeah, Don't do things like youshould already, and that's the
whole thing is like listen.
That's what I love about MaryOliver observing nature.
Listen, the birds don't care.
Yeah, they're singing everymorning, no matter what.
(09:55):
Yeah, raining, hailing, snowing, they're still singing their
songs, right.
And so I love that analogy ofwe get to be alive.
We should also be doing thesame thing each fresh morning,
and I know for some of us that'sa lot more difficult than
others, depending on where weare and what we've been through.
But I always say this toartists too like man, you should
(10:18):
have some sheer gratitude andthankfulness that you have this
ability to do these things andgo deep into them and explore
them and give those gifts to theworld.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
That reminds me of something that was said around
dinner last night Pressure is aprivilege, pressure is a
privilege, pressure is aprivilege.
So even the things that,whether they be external
pressures, whether they beself-invented internal pressures
, plenty of those.
(10:55):
Yeah, no, I'm raising my hand.
I thought you were waving Wavethis way up in the distance.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Hey, I thought you were waving to a horse in the
field or a white tail deer orwhatever's hanging out over here
, I gotta look.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I was raising my hand .
I was raising my hand for, youknow, self-imposed internal
pressures, mostly self-imaginedand not even real, but the
pressure to do something ofsignificance is in itself a
privilege and something to bethankful for.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Okay, this poem I've read multiple times and it never
jumped out at me the way it didwhen I read it in marfa
recently and I was sitting thereone morning and I went oh,
that's my philosophy on art, howdid I never notice this before?
And it's a very simple poemcalled Small Bodies.
(11:45):
I'm going to read this fullpoem because it's really short.
And she says and for those thataren't nature lovers, tough
luck.
You're getting a lot of naturepoetry today and I don't care,
you need it.
Okay, it's called Small Bodies.
It is almost summer In the pond,the pickerel leap and the
(12:05):
delicate teal have brought forththeir many charming young, and
the turtle is ravenous.
It's hard sometimes, oh Lord,to be faithful.
I am more boldly made than thelittle ducks paddling and
laughing, but not so bold as theturtle with his greasy mouth.
I know, you know everything.
I rely on this.
Still, there are so many smallbodies in the world for which, I
(12:27):
am afraid, the line that jumpedat me was I know, you know
everything.
I rely on this.
And the first thing that jumpedin my mind was me standing in
front of one of my works of artand studying it deeply, silently
, and knowing that my work knowseverything I rely.
(12:53):
My work knows more than I do,yeah, and I rely on that and so
I wrote oh my gosh, this is myphilosophy.
This has been my growingphilosophy over time, by
studying, by looking, by askingquestions, by discussing work.
Like everything is in the workfor me to discover and we talked
(13:13):
about this last week in thelast episode with Leonardo drew
like that study and discoveryand all those things that's in
the work.
The more we read, the more welisten, the more we journal, the
more introspective we are, themore we ask questions of each
other as artists, the more weseek out artists that know more
or further along than us and askfor wisdom from them.
That all feeds into ourexperience.
(13:35):
When we're alone in our studioand we're looking at our work
and we're studying it, we haveto realize, like the work knows
everything, it's going to tellus where things are going.
We have to be so in tune withwhat's happening in our work
because so many times we'reoperating in our subconscious
(13:55):
when we're creating our work,it's not our foreconscious.
That is the understanding partwe recognize every day.
There are things happening thatare coming from memory what
we've seen what sticks out, whatcolor patterns may our brain
may be picking up on whatcompositions?
So there's things in the workthat we don't even know we're
putting in there right, and Iread that and I was like, oh,
(14:19):
and it's taught, it's titledsmall bodies and I think, like
small bodies of work have moreto tell you about the large body
of your lifetime of work.
Each time of working on a bodyof work in my lifetime, those
are small bodies of work thatmake up the whole, but every one
of them is guiding me to thenext.
How much am I doing what wejust read in the last poem, read
(14:45):
in the last poem and reallytaking the time to stop and
notice and listen and look andbe appreciative and allow it to
really speak to us and to allowsomething to speak to us.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
We have to.
We have to be able to listen.
We have to, which means we haveto stop talking.
Much like conversation.
If I'm going to hear you, ifI'm going to try and understand
what you're saying, I need tonot be talking for sure and
ideally not be thinking aboutwhat I'm going to say next.
And it's no different withobserving the natural world or
observing our work.
You know, as you're talking,I'm thinking about the
(15:15):
difference between, you know,scientific studies and and
scientific experiments.
You know, think about thingsthat happen in the natural world
.
It's like the differencebetween jane goodall being
embedded with the chimpanzees,right, gorillas and, yeah, yes,
and just watching and justtrying to go to extreme lengths
(15:38):
over long periods of time tojust get them comfortable with
her presence from a distance, tostill behave the way that they
normally would.
Yeah, contrast that with youknow, animal studies in a lab,
right?
many which have been done yeah,unnatural, you know environments
that are very much constructedand engineered to test a certain
(16:03):
outcome.
Right, we want to be more inthe former than the latter.
Yeah, we want to be more.
And of course there is a timewhen, if we're talking about our
work, of course there's.
There are times where we aregoing to test and retest and
keep experimenting, for sure,but it's the observing and just
sitting with what is, withouttrying to affect or change the
(16:27):
outcome.
It's a really good practice forourselves as human beings who
are interested in continuing togrow and evolve as people.
Yeah, is just observing.
Hmm, why?
What is Nathan experiencingright now?
Why what is Nathan experiencingright now?
And speaking the third person,you know, not like an
(16:47):
egotistical right, right, youknow, athlete or performer, but
but in the in the context of,like, this is a I'm observing
myself from that objective thirdparty, you know perspective,
looking at myself as, withoutidentifying with, with the self,
right is what is Nathanexperiencing right now?
And just checking in withourselves.
You know we happen to be in anamazing environment where we are
(17:08):
completely removed from, youknow, the day to day, which
makes it so much.
All the conditions are in placefor us to be able to, you know,
sit in that space, um, but whatI'm interested in talking about
, and thinking about today aswell, ty is like how we can, you
know, have these moments andreally protect moments like this
(17:30):
in the day to day as well,because these are unique
experiences that may they don'tcome around.
You know, I don't get to dothis on a super regular basis,
you know.
So, I guess, if I was to throwit back to you in the form of a
question, you know what are someof the things I've got, some
that I'll share as well, but Iwant to start with you what are
some things that you do on likea day-to-day basis to have those
(17:53):
moments of of, of rest, ofsitting, of recharging?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Well, I mean daily.
I try to read every morning andit's about 90 percent of time.
I mean, there are some morningsI'm so eager to get in the
studio that I bypass reading,yeah, and I'm straight in there
to start working on something.
But that's that's.
That's rare, because for me Ineed that.
I don't need the cup of coffeefor caffeine in the morning.
(18:24):
It's really an enjoyable moment.
Yeah, I mean I drink a lot lesscoffee than I used to, but it's
like there's something aboutthe the smell feeds me, the
taste feeds me.
I love it.
There's something about holdingthe cup with my book, like that
.
That just gets me prepared in agreat way.
Mentally removes any, you know,worry about anything that could
(18:47):
be happening.
But for me it's just a momentright now.
There are definite days where Ineed to go, stand outside and
feel the sunlight on my face for10 minutes.
You know, cause that just weall know.
I mean that's very healthy todo and I do go on walks
frequently and usually I'mlistening to music without words
when I'm walking classicalmusic, jazz but for me that's
(19:08):
just a.
It may be in a neighborhood notlike this, but I have sunlight,
I have green, I've got thebirds flying around and I can
breathe free, fresh air, andthat's something that, for me,
is just really.
This is you'll understand thisone any animal people out there
gonna understand this justpicking up cash and giving them
(19:31):
a hug you know what I mean, mypuppy just picking them up and
holding them, not going out andcollecting from all the people
no, not holding my, my littlepuppy, my studio assistant, and
just giving them a hug, likethere are.
There are these moments thatseem so small, and I think
that's what mary oliver's reallygetting at in these things is
like listen, there's asimplicity in this.
The simplicity is all thesethings that are around us to
(19:55):
provide beauty and provideobservation, like watching this
robin, while we're talking,continually move from place to
place, and he's observing usyeah, observing us or she's
watching what we're doing.
Like there's these mystical,magical things around us every
day, no matter where we live,that are supplemental to life,
(20:17):
but they're supposed to beingrained into what we do.
To be ingrained into what we do.
There's supposed to be momentsto look at the blooming
wildflowers next to you, blowingin the wind, and notice that
and watch it and wonder about it.
But what that does for yoursoul, even in those few minutes,
it's a very mystical, powerfulthing that takes you deeper into
(20:40):
you.
Yeah, I truly believe that and Iknow that's that's what she's
saying in this entire book islisten, this is easy, but I know
how hard it is.
Yeah, listen, this is here foryou too, if you're willing to do
it.
Yeah, those are a couple ofthings for me.
Those are a couple of thingsfor me.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
I want to talk about the, you know.
So, for me, I think that thethe challenge that I have is
first acknowledging that I needto rest, Like I think there's.
(21:29):
I just think of it in terms oflike there's.
There's proactive rest andthere's reactive rest, which
could otherwise be called breaksor whatever.
If I am, when I am consistentwith my you know morning
routines and blah, blah, blah,like that's the proactive, you
know charging the battery, youknow sharpening the ax, you know
, before getting into it, andreally being intentional about
protecting that time on thefront end, because oftentimes,
(21:49):
once I get into it, I'm into itand it's, it's.
Everything perpetuates.
The next thing you know, and soso that's a big part of it is
is, to your point, like havingcertain just natural points in
the day where that happens, youknow, no matter what.
Yeah, I think that on thereactive side, that is just as
(22:10):
oftentimes more important for meis to simply recognize all
right, I need to step away.
Yeah, I need to.
I need to at least sit down inmy, you know, studio chair, I
need to pull out my, my, my labnote, you know, yeah, hard, and
I need to at least write somethings down better.
(22:32):
Yet get my creative director inmy lap and just sit, before I
even start to feel like I've gota.
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
yeah, I'm a doer, everybody that has an animal or
a creature at home, whether itbe cat or dog, they know exactly
what we're saying right now.
It's.
It's a magical feeling whenthat person that loves you
unconditionally, that littlecreature, that when you just
give them that hug and sciencealso tells you cortisol levels,
(23:04):
stress, anxiety levels, yeah,and that just that moment you
know like put you back, yeah, ona level playing around and yeah
but it starts with recognizing.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
It starts with just recognizing like, oh, nathan is
pressing right now, nathan istrying trying to, and I and I
I'm getting better at catchingmyself in those moments where
I'm not listening, I'm notresponding, I'm trying to make
something.
Yeah, I'm trying to push, push,push, which there are times for
(23:37):
it.
Does that?
That does have, you know, meritat times, but their listener
may or may not have that incommon with myself.
But I think it's justacknowledging for each of us,
like, okay, what are my littleyellow flag moments that I can
catch and realize, oh, it's timeto set the, just to step away.
(24:00):
Yeah, to go for a walk, to sitdown and read something.
You and I, we talk about thisall the time, what our
journaling practices do for us,and I've got a number of
different types of journaling,I've got different journals for
those things.
But on the tactical side, when Iget stuck with the work, it is
(24:23):
that studio log and it's writingdown.
Once I am settled, once I canobserve objectively, as
objectively as possible, onsomething that I've just
materially changed or donesomething to, even if time or a
lot of it has not yet passed,but just observing, sitting,
listening, and I like to justwrite down everything that comes
(24:46):
to mind that I could do.
Yeah, I mean, at any point, onany given work that we're doing,
there's any number of forks inthe road that have not just an A
or B, but right, there's aninfinite number of things that
we could potentially do, and soI'll sit and I'll write down all
right, here are then whatever.
Sometimes it's a handful ofthings, sometimes it's, you know
(25:07):
, 12 or 15 things.
Yeah, and then I'll sit somemore without writing and just
say, okay, now I'm just going tocross off the ones that you
know, no bad ideas on the, onthe just capturing portion, but
then getting into all right,what, what really makes, what do
you need?
(25:28):
Dear peace in front, like, andhaving that conversation as
opposed to just continuing to bein motion.
You know we were talking aboutthis last night as well, this
might be interesting to kind ofcircle back on, but I was
sharing with you how I have a,really when I'm in in this.
That's why being away from thestudio is so valuable, because
when I'm in the studio, when I'min my space, I I have this
(25:48):
compulsion to always be movingand always be working, which,
again, is not a a part of methat I'm trying to stop right or
short circuit altogether.
I think that that is, you know,generally positive, but it does
prevent me from being in tuneand recognizing when it's time
to just breathe and sit and notbe in perpetual motion and
(26:14):
action.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Right, there's another poem that she writes
about.
Just start at the time.
She wrote at the time inamerica, that was, that was
going on, and I think it waswhat time frame is this it was
right after the iraq war, okay,started weapons of mass
destruction, etc.
Etc.
And so she was just kind ofwriting about what she thought
(26:38):
people would remember about ourcountry at that time and that
she's heartbroken for what shethinks people remember.
But one of the things that shementions is you know what, if
everybody had a little bit morehumility, empathy and stopped to
take the time to noticeeverything more, what that would
(27:00):
do to the community as a whole,the community of humanity, of
human beings, took the time tonotice the wildflowers, notice
the robin perched on top of thebarn chirping.
No, like what would happen ifeverybody collectively, yeah,
did take those moments to stopand notice more often.
(27:23):
And her are, she thinks it wouldhave a lot greater impact than
one would ever know.
And but you think about justthat idea in its own.
I think that's part of what ourresponsibility as artists is is
to create things that allowpeople to take a moment to stop
and think in a different way.
(27:44):
Yeah, right, it's almost as if,you know, we're kind of
creating some of that ability toget people to come back to
something by what they saw, orreturn to something or move
ahead to something.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Written 35 years ago.
Could have been writtenyesterday.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Right, exactly, let's see it was 2008 actually.
Okay, yeah, so, but I'll betthat poem was written around
that time.
With this it got published,yeah, 2008 so yeah, so I'll jump
in with this.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, the um the book that I bought brought.
You did buy it, I did, Idefinitely paid for this yes.
The book that I brought with isNotes from the Woodshed, which
I've already done an episode onwe're going to circle back to as
well.
I am going back through this.
I'm especially excited.
(28:38):
So Ella and I are youngest.
We're taking a trip to New Yorknext month.
It's primarily she loves theaterand music.
It's gonna be mostly broadwaycentric, but we're gonna see the
whitton show at at mama, so I'msuper, super excited for that.
But I've been rereading these,which is a great thing like to
read whitton's journals whilealso doing whatever my own
(29:01):
version of reflection andjournaling it's it's.
It's really cool.
Yeah, so this is something.
This is from page 82.
It's remarkable what time willdo for your head for years of
hard work.
Later I discover what I wastrying to do.
So what sticks out to me aboutthat, in the context of what
(29:21):
we're discussing today, is justthe benefit of time and space.
And we're not going back to ourstudios and the things that
we're working on.
I mean, I'm never when I'm home.
I don't ever spend more thanone day out of the studio
(29:49):
Sundays, yeah, maybe Sundays.
You may not even have a singleday where you don't want at
least walk in your studio andknow that it's right on your
problem Not now and so just thebenefit of having some space
between what we're doing andwhen we consider what it even
means or, more importantly,what's coming next or what it's
(30:10):
inspiring or what it's what it'sleading to.
A couple pages later uh, jackwrites I take my.
This is from 1975.
I take my cue from nature, evenwith color.
I take my cue from nature, iepresenting an all-over tonal
range with occasional patches ofhue.
I want to put the fear of godin these paintings.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
I want to evoke a spiritual, magical, cosmic
existence with a materialconnection, emotionally charged
that's one of my favoritesections in the entire book
because it absolutely definesjack whitten for me, because of
who I have learned he is and howI have been brought into his
(30:54):
process and way of thinking andway of infusing cosmic right, he
, he says cosmic, quite a bitall the time, all the time and I
love just how he's saying Iwant to invoke the fear of god
into them.
Viewer, curator, gallery owner,museum director that's who he's
(31:19):
talking about and other artists.
Yeah, like he, he wants it tobe so spiritually in Bocan right
that it elicits the fear of Godinto them and lots of different
ways, because you learn more inthe book all the things that
he's fighting or dealing with orstruggling with outside of,
outside of his work, that areart world generate.
I just love that there's afocus and a calm focus of a calm
(31:46):
and very intense mentality intomaking the work that he's
making at that time and that heends up discovering right down
the road.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah, yeah, and I think about, you know, his whole
practice around.
I don't know what, I can'trecall exactly what year he got
the place in Crete, but once hehad that was an annual, you know
, sort of pilgrimage for him andthat's a place where he would
go and be completely away fromhis painting for a couple months
(32:17):
, a few months, you know, andwow, I mean to have something
like that again.
Whatever it is for each of us,whatever we're able to to, to
make, you know, possible orbuild into our lives, but taking
our cue, taking his cue fromnature, in order to do that,
you've got to spend some time init.
And so you think about thecompletely different environment
that he consciously put himselfinto and being in a completely
(32:40):
different part of the world Imean so much of.
If you've gotten this book yet,if you haven't, you need to.
It's, it's so, so good.
And since doing that episode andI couldn't have been more
strong in my insistence thatpeople get into this book I got
a lot, of a lot of people, youknow, hit me up and DM me saying
, oh, I'm so glad yourecommended that.
I really I haven't yet hadanybody be.
I really didn't dig it too much.
(33:01):
Like you will love this bookand if you don't, if you really
read it and don't love it, Iwill uh, I'll give you your
money back, I will buy it foryou and but you have to give it
to somebody else.
Yeah, if you didn't really loveit, you know.
But you think about that timeaway and you know we did our
Leonardo Drew episode a fewepisodes back or episodes, I
guess we did it in two parts.
But we talked as well aboutDrew's practice of traveling to
(33:23):
different parts and how thatreally helps him to develop his
what Say it.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
You just threw me for a loop, calling me out like
that on an instant.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
It's the word that I teach you about the other day.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Here's our problem with this podcast everybody and
Nathan and I talk about this offcamera.
I'll be full in to explainingand discussing something and it
elicits new thoughts and ideasin him, yeah, and then he is
gone figuring out all these newthings while I'm talking, and
(33:58):
then there's what were yousaying?
So I just totally and I do itall the time Nathan's going and
I'm like, oh, hold on a second,wait, this, that, that, oh.
And then all of a sudden youget the and what is it?
And you go oh, I was just 500fucking miles away in my head.
We're both just waiting for ourturn to talk.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Let's just be honest about it.
I mean, it's really just likeare you done yet?
Okay, here's what I've got,this is the importance of
finding.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
This is literally the importance in the world in
finding that artist friend, yeah, that you're able to make
disappear and go deeper and findnew things and then say they're
okay.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
I was trying to cue you up to hear the word that you
pronounce in your.
I'm not going to saymispronounced, but pronounce in
your own way, that's a lot ofwork.
That's a couple.
There's a couple.
Okay, you said we it came uplike seven times in the drew
episode.
It's antenna, oh, antenna.
Okay, now you know how to sayit, I got it.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
That's what I was trying to get you to say, antana
.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
There, it is Antana.
All right, Our regularlisteners go back and listen to
Ty say Antana in the drill.
Okay, but that's it.
Bring this back.
That was his whole thing about.
If you're going to be areceiver.
I'm paraphrasing here, but it'sa good idea to put yourself in
(35:20):
different places.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
So you can receive far more than you would be able
to in one spot Right.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
So that's what, that's what he's done in
traveling to all over the world.
That's what what Witten wasdoing with his regular trips, um
, you know, to Crete and, uh,you know, gone fishing.
And what's cool too about whenyou get into jack story too.
Um, I don't know that he didany painting in crete, but
that's where he did, um, most ofhis sculptures was in crete,
but that makes sense to me.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
100, that makes absolute sense.
He's in crete, he's in greece.
Yep, is I?
I don't know if the history ofsculpture I'll have to look this
up was formed in greece.
I mean, I'm sure it came from,uh, african nations and tribes
and worked its way into Greece.
But Greece is known for famoussculptors and you know a lineage
(36:11):
of incredible architects andsculptors, so that influence, of
course, would be absolutelyprevalent.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And we talk about this all the time, ty, but I
think, you know, that's one ofthe things that's really so
energizing about being away fromthe studio, where we have our
whole little world.
You know, we have everything,all the colors, all the tools,
all the materials, you know,whatever at our disposal, and
getting out of our regular spaceis just doing something
(36:39):
different.
You know, like I was uhobserving you yesterday while
everybody else was was fishing.
Uh-huh, ty's sitting in theboat and he's not I'm not,
that's not my thing, but he'ssketching, he's observing, he's
listening, and I would guessthat you were able to observe
and absorb certainly more than Iwas in that environment,
(37:03):
because I'm thinking about howto fly fish, which is really
tricky, and I was focusing ontrying to learn how to do
something that I didn't know howto do.
But anyway, so, getting out ofyour space and doing something
that you don't normally do, wewere waiting for a boat earlier
this morning and I, just a bunchof people were talking and then
(37:24):
, as is my introverted nature,I'm like how can I get away from
the people and go?
Can I do something?
Like I'm gonna be on a pontoonfor a good amount of time.
Yeah, uh, trapped, that's okay,that's, that's strong, but not
a lot of options to go wander upand just be alone in my own
little little world.
So I saw this glorious pile ofof driftwood, you know, and that
(37:48):
I had to climb up to kind ofget to, but you know, made a
little driftwood, you knowsculpture and jacklyn would have
been in heaven and not beenable to leave I thought about
jack.
I did too.
That's the first thing Ithought about.
Yeah, she would have had afield day and there was some
gorgeous, gorgeous pieces.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
She would have figured out a way how to rent a
U-Haul and drive it back toMichigan.
A hundred, percent.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Yeah, but so just the value of getting into whatever
that looks like I mean, it couldbe just the space that you're
happening to be in, but butdoing something that's different
than you know, what you'renormally doing, has tremendous
value, absolutely.
It's that much easier whenyou've completely removed the
option of doing what younormally do.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
I think there's something for putting yourself
at times in uncomfortablesituations, yeah, and I'm not
saying like something that youshouldn't be there or it's like,
but putting yourself inopportunities to learn new
things that you're uncomfortablewith, right, uh, and I would
say if america was better atbeing around people they're
(38:48):
uncomfortable with, there'd be awhole lot more community and
not as much fighting and arguingand hate being spewed.
So I think in life they're like.
The first time I came toMontana, I spent a day to
experience fly fishing.
I could care less about fishing.
Yeah, and honestly, my guide onthe river knew that, because
(39:08):
every time the little indicator,which is the little floater
thing that sits on the waterwhen it goes under, that means a
fish is on the hook and you'resupposed to, you know, pull the
fish is on the hook and you'resupposed to, you know, pull the.
And he would say indicator,indicator, indicator.
Ty, how long has your indicatorbeen underwater?
Cause I've got, and I'm lookingat the trees and I'm looking at
(39:32):
the wind, old, bald eagle, youknow, and it's like cause I just
, but I did it and I spent a day.
It was out of my comfort zonebut I, you know, I tried
something new and I think thatthat does absolutely impact who
you are as a person withexperience.
Whether you like it or not, youdid it.
It's you know.
New foods, I mean, I'vetraveled all over the world.
I'm a very picky eater here athome, but when I travel the
world I eat everything.
I've eaten some of the craziest, wildest things in Africa, in
(39:57):
Eastern Asia, that in smallvillages and refugee camps that
you would never try, and I'vetried them and some of them have
gone.
I love this.
But that experience, even innot liking it, experience it
with somebody else, with otherpeople it does develop you as a
(40:18):
human being in ways that arevery special.
Did you have any other Wittenyou wanted to share?
Well, there was one more.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Yeah, and it's just it's because I'll Witten all day
long.
We can, we will, we will dowell, We've got, at least we
will Witten of uh, of that with,with Jamel it's going to be my
new thing.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Hey, you want to Witten for a while?
Let's do it.
What?
Speaker 1 (40:37):
page.
It's kind of like Topheringyeah, you missed that, yeah,
anyway, what I love about this,so some of what's in here are
just, he's got studio logs forentire years and he may have
just, you know, a lot of theseare just one line entries from
entire days and entire weeks.
So this is the 8th of March1993.
Four words Nature does notthink.
(41:05):
Nature does not think, natureexists, it just is.
Yeah, it just is.
That's what's so fun about,it's so fascinating about the
natural world, you know, as awhole.
But I was just as interested I'mnot too far from you there I
was interested in trying, youknow, fly fishing and having,
but I was just as interested I'mnot too far from you there.
I was interested in trying, youknow, fly fishing and having
that experience.
But, um, I was just asinterested in watching the, the
(41:26):
raccoons on shore and themuskrats and watching the way
the bull snake, you know, madeits way across the top of the
water, and the egrets and theswallows and just all of
everything else that we got achance to observe and experience
yesterday.
It's, but it's not, it's notthinking, it's just existing,
(41:47):
it's just living, it just is,you know, and I think that when
we are at our best as artists,that's what we're doing.
You know it's.
It's the, it's the act of justbeing, of just responding to
what's in front of us and whatis.
And the less I'm thinking thebetter, because my mind says a
(42:13):
lot of ridiculous things andmost of them are not true or
relatively useful whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
There's a.
I was reading, I was goingthrough quotes this morning so I
wanted to share a Nick cavequote with somebody that's here
with us.
And as I was going through mynotes trying to find one on
vulnerability which there'squite a few from Nick cave I
came across one that saidsometimes we need permission to
just be and not do.
Yeah's what nature.
It just is.
(42:39):
Yeah, it's not doing, its beingright.
And sometimes we do needpermission.
We need somebody to tell us hey, nathan, quit doing, just be.
Right now and I have thisconversation with ours I'm like
you're overdoing, you'reoverthinking, you're over
worrying, you're over pressuring.
Just get in there and just do abunch of shit, just let it flow
(43:05):
, don't.
Don't worry, it's good or bad,all that stuff Like the Warhol
quote that we're based on.
But sometimes, but sometimes,we do need that person to let us
know hey, it's okay to go spenda month flailing around and
being horrible.
Yeah, because that next monththere could be something very
(43:25):
beautiful yeah, you know so Ithink the do you have anything
else?
Speaker 1 (43:29):
yeah, I do.
Okay, I got a closer, I have aclosing thought, but hit it okay
, let me go first, yeah yeahyeah.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
So it's one more poem which I just love.
There's some oh man, get it redbird poems by mary oliver and
this one, the pulitzer, actuallyfor poetry.
This book, which makes sensebecause it's incredible, this is
mornings at blackwater.
This is a pond near her home.
Mornings, mornings atBlackwater.
(43:58):
For years, every morning, Idrank from Blackwater Pond.
I love that picture, just thatstart.
For years, every morning, Idrank from Blackwater Pond.
It was flavored with oak leavesand also, no doubt, the feet of
ducks, and always it assaged mefrom the dry bowl of the very
past.
What I want to say is that thepast is the past and the present
(44:21):
is what your life is, and youare capable of choosing what
will be, my darling citizen.
So come to the pond or theriver of your imagination or the
harbor of your longing and putyour lips to the world and live
your life.
What, what I want?
(44:45):
The past is the past.
The present is what your lifeis.
We've talked about that a lotin the podcast, with our trauma
and recovery and the things thatwe've over.
The past is the past.
Our life is the present rightnow, and you're capable of
choosing what that will be.
Yeah, my darling citizen she'ssaying, you who are of the same
(45:06):
world?
I am, yeah, we are citizens ofthe same world, the same
humanity.
Uh, come to the pond, the riverof your imagination or the
harbor of your longing.
A few different, uhdescriptions there, three
different bodies of water.
Yeah, that she's talking aboutthe pond, which is small and
right there it's, at yourdoorstep.
The river of your imagination,the thing that's constantly
(45:28):
flowing and and going, yeah,right.
And then the harbor of yourlonging, like the place where
you come to dock, yeah, theplace where you come to stay.
What are you longing for?
What do you need to sit andrest in?
Right, those, those layers?
Yeah, that she's painting there.
Do these things put your lipsto the world?
(45:48):
Yeah, like that's a verysensual, sure, uh, actionable
thing.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Put your lips to the world and live your life, yeah
if you are actually going to putyour lips to one of those
bodies of water, start with theriver.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
You don't have that much that the duck feet.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Pond water should be third on that list, probably
maybe second if the harbor issalt water.
But still, like pond watershould not be your preferred
natural cocktail if you're justgetting started.
But yeah, no, that's, that's so.
It's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
I, I do need to get that, I'm gonna it's it's a must
, I might just, I might juststeal it from you.
Well, that you cannot do, but Icould.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
I bet I could manage cut to us wrestling.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Yeah, that's the end of the show and scene.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
No, I think the thing that I wanted to, to close on
just as an idea was, was justthe I uh, I think just how do we
make this, you know, applicableto everyone anytime?
We already kind of talked aboutit, but just getting out of
your natural space, getting outof your natural you, um, and it
(47:01):
can be as simple as a walk, itcan be as simple as going to,
you know, a park or just, ifyou're not an outdoors person,
just a different place, just awhatever patio of a coffee a new
coffee shop.
Totally and just going to go,putting yourself in an
environment that you're nottypically in and just seeing
what comes up, when you are ableto sort of escape the trappings
(47:25):
of the thick of it, right where, where you're spending most of
your time and where you'regetting your mail, so to speak.
Yeah, man.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Well, I don't know what you are all doing today,
but I hope but I hope that thisimpacted you at least in a way
that would make you re-evaluatetime a little bit, re-evaluate a
separation of things for you inthe studio that will make you
just, even if it's just walkingoutside, like you said, and just
(47:56):
letting the sun hit your faceand experiencing just the
existence of what is beingalongside us, always doing
Because we all operate in aharmony together, we're all here
in the same space at the sametime, right, and there is a
harmony to that, and I think weneed to be a part of that
(48:17):
harmony in a very silent andreflecting way more than we are,
and that's something that I'meven challenging myself to do.
And sometimes it does take aweekend away.
Yeah, you know, next to therolling hills and the bluffs and
Montana, by the river, but Iwould like it to be more about
me just recognizing it regularlyand taking a longer escape away
(48:40):
somewhere else.
But take a break, go, go dosomething to come back.
Take a walk, go drink a glassof wine in a cafe that you
haven't been to before, or justdo something.
Uh, highly encourage that.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
That's a pond water If you're feeling some pond
water join us next time for ournext episode of just make art.
Yeah, I'm ready to go journalsome more yeah, I'm gonna go
right.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
All right, beautiful, I think that's a fun episode.
Yeah, I don't know if I can getup.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yeah, you're gonna have to oh, I didn't get the
book that I've counting you didgo up to get Witten.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
That was the whole reason you went upstairs,
remember, and then you gotmock-tailed.
Oh, did we hit record?
I did, yeah, good, so I'm gladwe got that.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
See if you like it.
I'm going to get the book thatI meant to get.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Oh, okay, I'll see you in 20.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
But I might come back with a tasty treat.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
So you never know, sure you will.
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