March 3, 2025 • 26 mins
In this episode of Just Say Hay: The Podcast, we take a deep dive into the controversial topic of immigration—specifically how it impacts small farms. With mass deportations and labor shortages making headlines, large-scale agriculture often dominates the conversation, but what about the small farmer? We break down the realities of labor costs, the H-2A visa program, and how policies disproportionately favor big farms. Is there a fair solution? Tune in for a raw, insightful discussion on the challenges small farms face and the potential policy changes that could shape the future of agriculture.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon (00:00):
Welcome to Just Say hey, the podcast podcast where I talk
about the things that matter tosmall farms, because, well, I
am a small farm.
Today is a difficult topic.
Today is tough.
I want to talk about a verycontroversial topic.
It gets a lot of news coverage,but I want to deal with it as
(00:23):
it pertains to small farms, andthat's immigration.
It's difficult and it ischallenging to talk about
because it is such anemotionally charged situation.
I mean, right now, massdeportation is going on.
You know, those things that arehappening, you know can they
(00:45):
have emotional impact, and sopeople are charged about it.
What I want to talk about,though, is how the this
population impacts agriculture,because the agricultural
community gets pulled into thisbecause of arguments like our
vegetable costs are going to goup if we don't have access to
(01:08):
this, this workforce.
Yeah, the costs may go up, butit also causes some some
challenges, and I want to talkabout small farms, because the
farms that are growing produceand doing these things are not
small farms, and the guy who'sgrowing tomatoes here locally
(01:31):
can't sell his produce, becausehe can't sell it as cheap as
somebody on one of these largefarms can sell it, truck it and
get it all the way here, get itall the way to our grocery store
cheaper than he can grow ithimself.
So I think you know, I thinkthere are some challenges and
some competitive advantagesdisadvantages that go on because
of this issue that I think weshould deal with and I think, as
(01:53):
small farmers, there's going tobe some changes going on and we
need to be aware, be cognizant,be watching and, and, more
importantly, be communicatingand talking about these issues.
Even if you're wrong, even ifyour opinion is wrong and you
eventually change your mind.
We have to be able to talkabout this openly, without
(02:14):
animosity, without the anger andthe vitriol yeah, cool word
there um, that that I see somuch on this issue.
You know there's not many of usthat are from here Our parents,
(02:35):
grandparents, great, great,great, great grandparents,
whatever we're immigrants fromsomewhere and I think that has
to come into our thinking.
But at the same time, we havethe right and the responsibility
(02:55):
to guide and shape what we wantfor the future of this country,
for our children andgrandchildren, and so I think
it's a complicated issue, solet's get into it.
Welcome to Just Say hey thepodcast where we talk about what
matters to small farms, whetherit's business, marketing,
agronomy, equipment, livestock.
(03:15):
If it matters to small farms,we'll probably talk about it
here, so let's get into it.
If you have never been to EllisIsland, I highly encourage you
(03:36):
to take a tour.
Fascinating place.
If you don't know what it is,it's an island, a quick ferry
ride from the Statue of Liberty.
It's an island where a lot ofimmigration, during the old era
of mass migration they call itit was the 1880s to like the
1930s, late 19th, early 20thcentury happened due to
(03:56):
political unrest, economicupheaval in Italy, in Russia, in
Europe, asia.
So a lot of immigration.
The Asian immigration mostlyhappened through the West Coast
of the US, but there was a lotof immigration that came in
through there, and there was,you know, anyway.
(04:21):
It was just fascinating.
You didn't automatically justget to come into this country.
Our grandparents, greatgrandparents, great, great,
whatever didn't just get off theboat and walk in.
There was a process and in thatprocess there were questions,
20 or 30 questions asking aboutyou know your identity, your
(04:42):
financial, your health, and thenwhat you're planning to do,
what your future?
What are you planning to dohere?
Do you have a job waiting foryou?
Do you have, and this was allyou know.
You got to remember.
This is industrial revolution.
This is, you know, that time ofthat time in our history.
You didn't get to just walk inhere.
They shoved you down adifferent stair, staircase and
(05:03):
you either went into quarantine,you went into a more thorough
health examination, or you gotdeported and sent back to where
you came from, because it wasjust the process.
So you know, the argument thatwe're all descendants of
immigrants is mostly true, butthere was a process.
Was it as advanced and ascomplicated?
(05:25):
And, you know, do we have agood process now?
That is up for debate.
I get that, and maybe not.
Maybe we need complete overhaulof our immigration process.
So you know, I don't want toget too deep into that, but I
think it frames what we're goingto talk about now, and that is,
you know, small farms, ours.
(05:47):
Does we struggle with laborshortages?
We struggle with I mean heck,have you ever tried to get a
high school kid to throw balesanymore?
I remember when I was in gradeschool and high school man, I
thought I was king of the worldwhen I made eight cents a bale,
got paid by the bale, and I'msure a lot of you did the same
thing through thousands of bailsover a summer.
(06:07):
I thought that was great.
Uh, I thought I was king of theworld and I think the most I
ever made was 10 cents a bailfor throwing bays.
You pick them up, throw them onthe cart or you're in the cart
throwing them.
But when you look at the laborshortage is why small?
Why the, the?
The large farms are havingissues so they hire, they, they
(06:29):
kind of piecemeal outundocumented labor and we sort
of have this don't look, don'ttell process the.
The penalty for hiring anundocumented worker is a couple
hundred bucks, 300, 500 bucks,something like that.
You can go through hiringagencies, employment agencies
(06:55):
and do it that way, kind ofinsulate yourself a little bit.
We don't, but it doesn'tcompletely insulate you because
Purdue just lost a big case andI think it was just this year.
Purdue had to pay $2 millionfor undocumented I believe it
was undocumented and child laborin one of their poultry
(07:16):
processing plants.
It comes back to the smallfarmer is if let's say we're
going to do this legally andwe're not going to compete,
we're not going to talk about infor the moment here, we're not
going to talk about a farmthat's hiring undocumented
workers and paying them nothingand abusing them.
(07:38):
We're going to say, twocompanies are going to the
letter of the law and hiringemployees and you can't find a
worker.
So what does a large farm do?
Well, there is a process calledthe H-2A visa and what it does
is it allows you to bring inworkers from outside the US.
You have a fee structure to paythem, where you have to pay
(08:05):
them a competitive pay rate andyou have to pay some fees.
But when you hire somebodythrough that process, the
numbers are pretty different ifyou're a small farm trying to
hire one versus a large farmhiring 50.
(08:26):
And I ran the numbers justbecause I was curious about it.
So if you wanted to hire oneH-2A worker, go through all the
legal fees, which it's a lot,and you wanted them for, say,
six months let's say you wantedthis person for six months
through a harvest that H-2Aworker would cost about $40,000
(08:53):
for six months, whereas ifyou're a large farmer, that same
employee making the same amountof money would cost that large
farm $26,000.
No-transcript.
(09:14):
I think if you look at theundocumented side, I think there
are some potential moral,ethical issues in that because
an undocumented person doesn'thave the benefit of protection
under the law.
You know, let's say you're afarm and you're hiring a guy who
(09:55):
is illegal, doesn't, doesn'thave legal rights in this
country, what happens when youstart abusing him?
He can't go to the police, hecan't go to any type of an
authority and say, hey, thisguy's being a jerk, he's not
paying me because you don't haveany rights.
So I think you know we havethis challenge of finding a
solution in all of this and ifyou're a small farmer you know
that's not really a solution,there's not a good one.
Whereas a large farm canmitigate risk, can.
(10:18):
It's a heck of a lot cheaper tohire illegally and get the slap
on the wrist than it is to hirelegally.
I mean, the numbers show youthat.
I mean, even at $26,000, thatperson in that H-2A program only
takes home about $14,000 ofthat $26,000.
That person in that H-2Aprogram only takes home about
(10:39):
$14,000 of that $26,000.
Only about $14,000.
In that $39,000 for the guyhiring one H-2A employee, that
number is still the worker's,only making $14,000.
There is, you know, there's.
You know that's a bigdiscrepancy.
Where does the rest of thatmoney go?
(11:01):
Administrative costs,bureaucratic costs.
So you know, I think that's achallenge we face in trying to
come up with a solution to thisproblem.
(11:33):
So, as I'm sitting hererecording this podcast, I don't
think this one will get releasedfor a couple weeks, but the
Senate is going, I think, RF lotof talk about changing stuff in
that program and HHSs over USDA, the FDA, the CDC.
We're going to start seeing alot of changes coming up, a lot
(12:00):
of conversations talking aboutagriculture and this is so
important for us as smallfarmers to stay on top of and
talk about this.
Make sure that you know, if youknow people who are senators or
you know in the political eye,if they're policymakers, if
they're anything, we need to betalking to them, making sure
that, whatever plans they aretrying to come up with to solve
(12:21):
this, that they are keeping theindustry, keeping us in mind,
because the current policiesdon't favor the small farmer.
No, they don't.
I mean, the H-2A program isjust a perfect example.
I have to pay $40,000 for thesame guy that a large farm pays
$26,000 for, and bureaucracy iswhat causes that difference and
(12:47):
the worker doesn't see anybenefit.
Doesn't see any benefit.
Working for a small guy, workfor a big guy, it doesn't matter
to him, he's getting the same14K for that six months worth of
work.
So you know, when you look at,when we look at these things
that we're talking about here,remember I don't want an unfair
(13:08):
advantage, I don't.
I want, I want a level playingfield.
I think there are advantagesthat being a small farmer has.
(13:32):
And when we see all this chaosgoing on around us, remember
there's opportunity there andthat opportunity may be talk to
your legislators radius, maybeyou know there are opportunities
that could be that you can seepotential in Saves the grocery
store money in trucking, say youknow there's things that can be
done, but policy drives a lotof this stuff.
(13:54):
And you know that guy in outWest who's hiring a, an
undocumented worker payingnothing and then selling cheap
vegetables.
Well, that's a don't ask, don'ttell kind of look at an unfair
practice that puts you, thesmall farmer, at a disadvantage.
So you know the argument aboutthis in agriculture.
(14:18):
There's two sides to thisargument and a lot of the media
tries to play the heartstringsof all the poor farmers not
going to be able to find anyworkers.
And you know what?
I don't know any small farmerPersonally.
I mean I'm not sure.
I'm not saying they're not outthere, but I don't know anybody
personally who hires illegalworkers.
(14:39):
I mean there, but I don't knowanybody personally who hires
illegal workers.
I mean, I don't, I don't knowanybody, I don't know.
You know, heck, most of us arescraping by, doing it ourselves
or family and friends, and youcan't hire, you know, like I
said earlier, you, you know,when we look for labor, you
can't find people who want towork.
(15:01):
So I get that side of theargument.
But you know, there has to be amore equitable you know, more
equitable uh solution.
Why, you know, why do westruggle to compete so bad?
And that's, you know, part ofit is scale.
It's why big business has anadvantage over small.
I think the thing we need to, Ithink one thing we need to look
(15:26):
at is, you know, competitive,being competitive in our
business.
And most farmers I know theyfarm because they really like it
.
I mean, it's a life it's.
You know you do get up and dothe things you like to do.
The thing you don't like to dois the business side of it, if
(15:46):
you're, you know, like most ofthe guys, I know, I like the
business side.
I want to be competitive.
We work really hard to raise areally high-end crop and I want
(16:07):
to be competitive.
I want to be able to look atanybody else who does this
product.
I want to do it better, better.
But that is the kind of mindsetyou have to have to, especially
and I'll say, commodity cropsmaybe not, I don't know a ton
about that, but you know youhave to be.
You have to want to becompetitive as a small farmer
(16:30):
because you're running abusiness, and that's the
downside of a lot of thesearguments the well, while we
farm, it's what we do, and mostguys get up every morning and
love the work.
Man, you got to love the workand I do too.
I get up and I love the work.
I like the hard work.
I like the dirty, the grimy,the you know, being covered in
(16:51):
dirt and hay and dust, you know,other than paying for it, I
like when.
I even like working onequipment when it breaks down.
I like, you know, I like thatprocess, the chaos of it, the
you know.
I just love that whole process.
But I'm also I'm also abusiness guy.
I like being the best and thatmindset is what allows
(17:16):
businesses to succeed.
And when you farm, there's thatdouble standard that people have
in farming and that is theylove to do it.
But you also got to love to dothe business side of it.
And again I say, it's probablynot as much for commodity
farmers because you're trying togrow mass.
It's just a different.
(17:37):
And your metrics of success,while monetary, are probably
more based around volume ratherthan quality, I have a
competitive product to sell.
(17:57):
I can stand there and put myproduct up against almost
anybody's product in our areaand give you reasons why I think
mine is the best, why I thinkwe are better.
And it's not arrogance, it'sthat you know.
I want to make a promise topeople that, look, I do
everything I can to provide thebest product I can, the best
crop I can, do everything I canto provide the best product I
(18:18):
can, the best crop I can, and Ido that consistently, year over
year.
And I think that's an advantagebecause customers can buy.
You can buy your hay from oneguy one year and another guy the
next year and your qualitychanges.
The types of grass change, theforage quality, the nutritional
value all of that changes whenyou deal with one guy who works
really hard at it, and this is,you know, something you're
(18:39):
passionate about.
I think you can.
My advantage is repeatability.
Not only quality, butrepeatability.
You know, I think there's a lotto talk about there and small
farms need to take that kind ofa mindset when they talk about,
you know things we can do tomake this situation better.
(19:01):
Well, I think we need to startthinking about policy.
91% of all small, all farms aresmall farms.
Some you know there's a lot ofthem that are micro farms under
$10,000 a year, micro farmsunder $10,000 a year.
But they're never going to bebusinesses until we give them
some till.
We give farms some sort of a youknow a way to do it, a way to
(19:25):
make a reward quality, not justquantity.
For example, I mean guy whospends money on fertilizer and
grows really great tomatoes andhas them tested and knows the
nutritional quality, againstsomething that is being shipped
(19:45):
in here in a container kept ininert gases, kept from ripening
in tankers and inert gases thatkills off the, the probiotics
and all the things that you need, but it looks pretty when you
get it to the grocery store.
I think that quality needs tobe rewarded.
It has advantages in.
You know if you want to talkabout the environment, you know
(20:09):
if you're bringing in a tomatofrom whatever South American
company you're doing it from,that tomato probably has to get
planted, and same things we haveto do here.
But then it has to get on atrain and then on a ship and
then unloaded from a ship andthen sent out to a distribution
facility, kept cold in arefrigerated, trucks and
(20:30):
buildings.
All of this takes power.
Remember, all of this takespower.
Before it gets distributed tothe grocery store, as that fruit
gets ripe at the right time,there's a lot of people that
will argue health benefits ofthat are just not what they
should be.
So the quality of having maybea tomato that might not look as
(20:54):
physically perfect but has ahigher nutrition content content
should be rewarded.
The fact that that tomatodidn't have to drive all over
the world to get to your grocerystore, having a lower
environmental impact, should berewarded.
And maybe grocery stores get atax incentive for buying produce
from a 50 mile from that'sgrown within a 50 mile radius.
(21:17):
I don't know.
There are.
You know there are options likethat and if you know people who
are in politics, whether it'syour local guy, whether it's a
regional or a state or anational guy, we should be be in
their ear, letting them knowthat the decisions they're going
to be making in the comingmonths, weeks, months, years,
(21:43):
that they should be thinkingabout the small guys, the small
farmers in their area.
So you know, the other thingyou can do and I'm a big fan of
you know in all of this chaos isgoing to there's going to come
opportunity.
You know we talked about can'tfind workers.
Well, you know how we had tosolve that problem was we
(22:06):
mechanized?
I mean we changed the baleformats, we chose to go with
large square bales it's called amid-square.
We do the three by three, byeights, and we use machines
practices because couldn't findguys.
You know, couldn't find guys topick up bales.
(22:27):
So you know we chose adifferent process.
I think if you are a smallfarmer and you've got eggs or
vegetables or whatever and youwant to make a business out of
that, be a direct to consumerbusiness, build a brand that
builds trust and that brand isjust you, you are your brand.
That builds trust, buildsconfidence in your product and
(22:53):
hopefully then you can develop amarket for it and turn that.
We've got a bunch of friendsthat'll come out and help us.
We make it easy.
We, all of our tractors and allof our equipment has air
conditioning and we're workingin the heat of the summer here
(23:15):
and if you live in Illinois inthe middle of the summer you
know 104 degrees, 105 degreeswith.
You know 99% humidity is prettycommon.
Those are things you can do tohelp with the employee test.
Those are just things we did onour farm.
I think you know, when you lookat the policy reforms, we should
, you know, look at how policiesimpact really reward local
(23:49):
farmers and local retailers forlocal, because not only can
there be health benefits but theenvironmental impacts that we
just talked about, withtransportation costs and fuel
and power and all of this tokeep that tomato in the perfect
state from where it leftArgentina to, you know, when it
gets to your grocery store.
You know, again, tax incentives.
(24:11):
I think another thing thatcould be talked about is, you
know, some of the undocumentedworkers stuff, because I think
there's a moral question that wehave to ask ourselves about the
potential for abuse, whetherit's financial, physical
potential for abuse, whetherit's financial, physical,
whatever that is, you know,should there be harsher
(24:31):
penalties for people that paythose type of workers?
I know that wouldn't be popularin the agricultural world.
I mean it might not be popular,but I mean it's an option to
keep you know.
Again, in any of the businessesthat I've ever been in, I don't
want an unfair advantage.
I don't want to.
You know, it's like playingsports.
I want to beat you when you areat your absolute best and I'm
(24:57):
at my absolute best and I wantto try to win.
I don't want to go run a raceagainst you when you've got a
broken leg and then telleverybody that I beat you.
That's not the way I want to doit.
I want to win because I workhard, I work smart, I do these
things and I want to win.
And so I think some of thethings that can be done just
(25:19):
level the playing field.
Level the playing field for us.
What's worked on your farm?
I mean, what do you guys do?
Send me some comments.
What do you guys do?
I'd love to talk about it.
What have you done on your farmto kind of combat these issues
that you're seeing?
I think another.
I'll encourage you follow theUSDA, the FDA and the USDA
(25:40):
closely to see the changes andlook for those advantages that
it might provide you and yourfarm and your business.
And talk to your legislators asthings are happening.
I mean, let them know youropinion, because you know what
Every legislator, every personin politics that I know they may
not care about you but theysure do care about your vote.
(26:01):
So you know we need to beletting them know what things
are important to us, otherwisethey're just going to make it up
.
You know, talk to them.
Most of the guys are prettyeasily accessible.
So you know, with that, have awonderful day.
I know it's a complicated issuewe've been talking about, but
understand both sides, talkabout it, kind of formulate your
(26:29):
opinion where you stand onthese issues, because, man,
we've got a lot of change comingup here in the next six months,
I think in the coming year.
So, anyway, good luck, godbless.
Welcome to Just Say hey, the podcast podcast where I talk
about the things that matter tosmall farms, because, well, I
am a small farm.
Today is a difficult topic.
Today is tough.
I want to talk about a verycontroversial topic.
It gets a lot of news coverage,but I want to deal with it as
(00:23):
it pertains to small farms, andthat's immigration.
It's difficult and it ischallenging to talk about
because it is such anemotionally charged situation.
I mean, right now, massdeportation is going on.
You know, those things that arehappening, you know can they
(00:45):
have emotional impact, and sopeople are charged about it.
What I want to talk about,though, is how the this
population impacts agriculture,because the agricultural
community gets pulled into thisbecause of arguments like our
vegetable costs are going to goup if we don't have access to
(01:08):
this, this workforce.
Yeah, the costs may go up, butit also causes some some
challenges, and I want to talkabout small farms, because the
farms that are growing produceand doing these things are not
small farms, and the guy who'sgrowing tomatoes here locally
(01:31):
can't sell his produce, becausehe can't sell it as cheap as
somebody on one of these largefarms can sell it, truck it and
get it all the way here, get itall the way to our grocery store
cheaper than he can grow ithimself.
So I think you know, I thinkthere are some challenges and
some competitive advantagesdisadvantages that go on because
of this issue that I think weshould deal with and I think, as
(01:53):
small farmers, there's going tobe some changes going on and we
need to be aware, be cognizant,be watching and, and, more
importantly, be communicatingand talking about these issues.
Even if you're wrong, even ifyour opinion is wrong and you
eventually change your mind.
We have to be able to talkabout this openly, without
(02:14):
animosity, without the anger andthe vitriol yeah, cool word
there um, that that I see somuch on this issue.
You know there's not many of usthat are from here Our parents,
(02:35):
grandparents, great, great,great, great grandparents,
whatever we're immigrants fromsomewhere and I think that has
to come into our thinking.
But at the same time, we havethe right and the responsibility
(02:55):
to guide and shape what we wantfor the future of this country,
for our children andgrandchildren, and so I think
it's a complicated issue, solet's get into it.
Welcome to Just Say hey thepodcast where we talk about what
matters to small farms, whetherit's business, marketing,
agronomy, equipment, livestock.
(03:15):
If it matters to small farms,we'll probably talk about it
here, so let's get into it.
If you have never been to EllisIsland, I highly encourage you
(03:36):
to take a tour.
Fascinating place.
If you don't know what it is,it's an island, a quick ferry
ride from the Statue of Liberty.
It's an island where a lot ofimmigration, during the old era
of mass migration they call itit was the 1880s to like the
1930s, late 19th, early 20thcentury happened due to
(03:56):
political unrest, economicupheaval in Italy, in Russia, in
Europe, asia.
So a lot of immigration.
The Asian immigration mostlyhappened through the West Coast
of the US, but there was a lotof immigration that came in
through there, and there was,you know, anyway.
(04:21):
It was just fascinating.
You didn't automatically justget to come into this country.
Our grandparents, greatgrandparents, great, great,
whatever didn't just get off theboat and walk in.
There was a process and in thatprocess there were questions,
20 or 30 questions asking aboutyou know your identity, your
(04:42):
financial, your health, and thenwhat you're planning to do,
what your future?
What are you planning to dohere?
Do you have a job waiting foryou?
Do you have, and this was allyou know.
You got to remember.
This is industrial revolution.
This is, you know, that time ofthat time in our history.
You didn't get to just walk inhere.
They shoved you down adifferent stair, staircase and
(05:03):
you either went into quarantine,you went into a more thorough
health examination, or you gotdeported and sent back to where
you came from, because it wasjust the process.
So you know, the argument thatwe're all descendants of
immigrants is mostly true, butthere was a process.
Was it as advanced and ascomplicated?
(05:25):
And, you know, do we have agood process now?
That is up for debate.
I get that, and maybe not.
Maybe we need complete overhaulof our immigration process.
So you know, I don't want toget too deep into that, but I
think it frames what we're goingto talk about now, and that is,
you know, small farms, ours.
(05:47):
Does we struggle with laborshortages?
We struggle with I mean heck,have you ever tried to get a
high school kid to throw balesanymore?
I remember when I was in gradeschool and high school man, I
thought I was king of the worldwhen I made eight cents a bale,
got paid by the bale, and I'msure a lot of you did the same
thing through thousands of bailsover a summer.
(06:07):
I thought that was great.
Uh, I thought I was king of theworld and I think the most I
ever made was 10 cents a bailfor throwing bays.
You pick them up, throw them onthe cart or you're in the cart
throwing them.
But when you look at the laborshortage is why small?
Why the, the?
The large farms are havingissues so they hire, they, they
(06:29):
kind of piecemeal outundocumented labor and we sort
of have this don't look, don'ttell process the.
The penalty for hiring anundocumented worker is a couple
hundred bucks, 300, 500 bucks,something like that.
You can go through hiringagencies, employment agencies
(06:55):
and do it that way, kind ofinsulate yourself a little bit.
We don't, but it doesn'tcompletely insulate you because
Purdue just lost a big case andI think it was just this year.
Purdue had to pay $2 millionfor undocumented I believe it
was undocumented and child laborin one of their poultry
(07:16):
processing plants.
It comes back to the smallfarmer is if let's say we're
going to do this legally andwe're not going to compete,
we're not going to talk about infor the moment here, we're not
going to talk about a farmthat's hiring undocumented
workers and paying them nothingand abusing them.
(07:38):
We're going to say, twocompanies are going to the
letter of the law and hiringemployees and you can't find a
worker.
So what does a large farm do?
Well, there is a process calledthe H-2A visa and what it does
is it allows you to bring inworkers from outside the US.
You have a fee structure to paythem, where you have to pay
(08:05):
them a competitive pay rate andyou have to pay some fees.
But when you hire somebodythrough that process, the
numbers are pretty different ifyou're a small farm trying to
hire one versus a large farmhiring 50.
(08:26):
And I ran the numbers justbecause I was curious about it.
So if you wanted to hire oneH-2A worker, go through all the
legal fees, which it's a lot,and you wanted them for, say,
six months let's say you wantedthis person for six months
through a harvest that H-2Aworker would cost about $40,000
(08:53):
for six months, whereas ifyou're a large farmer, that same
employee making the same amountof money would cost that large
farm $26,000.
No-transcript.
(09:14):
I think if you look at theundocumented side, I think there
are some potential moral,ethical issues in that because
an undocumented person doesn'thave the benefit of protection
under the law.
You know, let's say you're afarm and you're hiring a guy who
(09:55):
is illegal, doesn't, doesn'thave legal rights in this
country, what happens when youstart abusing him?
He can't go to the police, hecan't go to any type of an
authority and say, hey, thisguy's being a jerk, he's not
paying me because you don't haveany rights.
So I think you know we havethis challenge of finding a
solution in all of this and ifyou're a small farmer you know
that's not really a solution,there's not a good one.
Whereas a large farm canmitigate risk, can.
(10:18):
It's a heck of a lot cheaper tohire illegally and get the slap
on the wrist than it is to hirelegally.
I mean, the numbers show youthat.
I mean, even at $26,000, thatperson in that H-2A program only
takes home about $14,000 ofthat $26,000.
That person in that H-2Aprogram only takes home about
(10:39):
$14,000 of that $26,000.
Only about $14,000.
In that $39,000 for the guyhiring one H-2A employee, that
number is still the worker's,only making $14,000.
There is, you know, there's.
You know that's a bigdiscrepancy.
Where does the rest of thatmoney go?
(11:01):
Administrative costs,bureaucratic costs.
So you know, I think that's achallenge we face in trying to
come up with a solution to thisproblem.
(11:33):
So, as I'm sitting hererecording this podcast, I don't
think this one will get releasedfor a couple weeks, but the
Senate is going, I think, RF lotof talk about changing stuff in
that program and HHSs over USDA, the FDA, the CDC.
We're going to start seeing alot of changes coming up, a lot
(12:00):
of conversations talking aboutagriculture and this is so
important for us as smallfarmers to stay on top of and
talk about this.
Make sure that you know, if youknow people who are senators or
you know in the political eye,if they're policymakers, if
they're anything, we need to betalking to them, making sure
that, whatever plans they aretrying to come up with to solve
(12:21):
this, that they are keeping theindustry, keeping us in mind,
because the current policiesdon't favor the small farmer.
No, they don't.
I mean, the H-2A program isjust a perfect example.
I have to pay $40,000 for thesame guy that a large farm pays
$26,000 for, and bureaucracy iswhat causes that difference and
(12:47):
the worker doesn't see anybenefit.
Doesn't see any benefit.
Working for a small guy, workfor a big guy, it doesn't matter
to him, he's getting the same14K for that six months worth of
work.
So you know, when you look at,when we look at these things
that we're talking about here,remember I don't want an unfair
(13:08):
advantage, I don't.
I want, I want a level playingfield.
I think there are advantagesthat being a small farmer has.
(13:32):
And when we see all this chaosgoing on around us, remember
there's opportunity there andthat opportunity may be talk to
your legislators radius, maybeyou know there are opportunities
that could be that you can seepotential in Saves the grocery
store money in trucking, say youknow there's things that can be
done, but policy drives a lotof this stuff.
(13:54):
And you know that guy in outWest who's hiring a, an
undocumented worker payingnothing and then selling cheap
vegetables.
Well, that's a don't ask, don'ttell kind of look at an unfair
practice that puts you, thesmall farmer, at a disadvantage.
So you know the argument aboutthis in agriculture.
(14:18):
There's two sides to thisargument and a lot of the media
tries to play the heartstringsof all the poor farmers not
going to be able to find anyworkers.
And you know what?
I don't know any small farmerPersonally.
I mean I'm not sure.
I'm not saying they're not outthere, but I don't know anybody
personally who hires illegalworkers.
(14:39):
I mean there, but I don't knowanybody personally who hires
illegal workers.
I mean, I don't, I don't knowanybody, I don't know.
You know, heck, most of us arescraping by, doing it ourselves
or family and friends, and youcan't hire, you know, like I
said earlier, you, you know,when we look for labor, you
can't find people who want towork.
(15:01):
So I get that side of theargument.
But you know, there has to be amore equitable you know, more
equitable uh solution.
Why, you know, why do westruggle to compete so bad?
And that's, you know, part ofit is scale.
It's why big business has anadvantage over small.
I think the thing we need to, Ithink one thing we need to look
(15:26):
at is, you know, competitive,being competitive in our
business.
And most farmers I know theyfarm because they really like it
.
I mean, it's a life it's.
You know you do get up and dothe things you like to do.
The thing you don't like to dois the business side of it, if
(15:46):
you're, you know, like most ofthe guys, I know, I like the
business side.
I want to be competitive.
We work really hard to raise areally high-end crop and I want
(16:07):
to be competitive.
I want to be able to look atanybody else who does this
product.
I want to do it better, better.
But that is the kind of mindsetyou have to have to, especially
and I'll say, commodity cropsmaybe not, I don't know a ton
about that, but you know youhave to be.
You have to want to becompetitive as a small farmer
(16:30):
because you're running abusiness, and that's the
downside of a lot of thesearguments the well, while we
farm, it's what we do, and mostguys get up every morning and
love the work.
Man, you got to love the workand I do too.
I get up and I love the work.
I like the hard work.
I like the dirty, the grimy,the you know, being covered in
(16:51):
dirt and hay and dust, you know,other than paying for it, I
like when.
I even like working onequipment when it breaks down.
I like, you know, I like thatprocess, the chaos of it, the
you know.
I just love that whole process.
But I'm also I'm also abusiness guy.
I like being the best and thatmindset is what allows
(17:16):
businesses to succeed.
And when you farm, there's thatdouble standard that people have
in farming and that is theylove to do it.
But you also got to love to dothe business side of it.
And again I say, it's probablynot as much for commodity
farmers because you're trying togrow mass.
It's just a different.
(17:37):
And your metrics of success,while monetary, are probably
more based around volume ratherthan quality, I have a
competitive product to sell.
(17:57):
I can stand there and put myproduct up against almost
anybody's product in our areaand give you reasons why I think
mine is the best, why I thinkwe are better.
And it's not arrogance, it'sthat you know.
I want to make a promise topeople that, look, I do
everything I can to provide thebest product I can, the best
crop I can, do everything I canto provide the best product I
(18:18):
can, the best crop I can, and Ido that consistently, year over
year.
And I think that's an advantagebecause customers can buy.
You can buy your hay from oneguy one year and another guy the
next year and your qualitychanges.
The types of grass change, theforage quality, the nutritional
value all of that changes whenyou deal with one guy who works
really hard at it, and this is,you know, something you're
(18:39):
passionate about.
I think you can.
My advantage is repeatability.
Not only quality, butrepeatability.
You know, I think there's a lotto talk about there and small
farms need to take that kind ofa mindset when they talk about,
you know things we can do tomake this situation better.
(19:01):
Well, I think we need to startthinking about policy.
91% of all small, all farms aresmall farms.
Some you know there's a lot ofthem that are micro farms under
$10,000 a year, micro farmsunder $10,000 a year.
But they're never going to bebusinesses until we give them
some till.
We give farms some sort of a youknow a way to do it, a way to
(19:25):
make a reward quality, not justquantity.
For example, I mean guy whospends money on fertilizer and
grows really great tomatoes andhas them tested and knows the
nutritional quality, againstsomething that is being shipped
(19:45):
in here in a container kept ininert gases, kept from ripening
in tankers and inert gases thatkills off the, the probiotics
and all the things that you need, but it looks pretty when you
get it to the grocery store.
I think that quality needs tobe rewarded.
It has advantages in.
You know if you want to talkabout the environment, you know
(20:09):
if you're bringing in a tomatofrom whatever South American
company you're doing it from,that tomato probably has to get
planted, and same things we haveto do here.
But then it has to get on atrain and then on a ship and
then unloaded from a ship andthen sent out to a distribution
facility, kept cold in arefrigerated, trucks and
(20:30):
buildings.
All of this takes power.
Remember, all of this takespower.
Before it gets distributed tothe grocery store, as that fruit
gets ripe at the right time,there's a lot of people that
will argue health benefits ofthat are just not what they
should be.
So the quality of having maybea tomato that might not look as
(20:54):
physically perfect but has ahigher nutrition content content
should be rewarded.
The fact that that tomatodidn't have to drive all over
the world to get to your grocerystore, having a lower
environmental impact, should berewarded.
And maybe grocery stores get atax incentive for buying produce
from a 50 mile from that'sgrown within a 50 mile radius.
(21:17):
I don't know.
There are.
You know there are options likethat and if you know people who
are in politics, whether it'syour local guy, whether it's a
regional or a state or anational guy, we should be be in
their ear, letting them knowthat the decisions they're going
to be making in the comingmonths, weeks, months, years,
(21:43):
that they should be thinkingabout the small guys, the small
farmers in their area.
So you know, the other thingyou can do and I'm a big fan of
you know in all of this chaos isgoing to there's going to come
opportunity.
You know we talked about can'tfind workers.
Well, you know how we had tosolve that problem was we
(22:06):
mechanized?
I mean we changed the baleformats, we chose to go with
large square bales it's called amid-square.
We do the three by three, byeights, and we use machines
practices because couldn't findguys.
You know, couldn't find guys topick up bales.
(22:27):
So you know we chose adifferent process.
I think if you are a smallfarmer and you've got eggs or
vegetables or whatever and youwant to make a business out of
that, be a direct to consumerbusiness, build a brand that
builds trust and that brand isjust you, you are your brand.
That builds trust, buildsconfidence in your product and
(22:53):
hopefully then you can develop amarket for it and turn that.
We've got a bunch of friendsthat'll come out and help us.
We make it easy.
We, all of our tractors and allof our equipment has air
conditioning and we're workingin the heat of the summer here
(23:15):
and if you live in Illinois inthe middle of the summer you
know 104 degrees, 105 degreeswith.
You know 99% humidity is prettycommon.
Those are things you can do tohelp with the employee test.
Those are just things we did onour farm.
I think you know, when you lookat the policy reforms, we should
, you know, look at how policiesimpact really reward local
(23:49):
farmers and local retailers forlocal, because not only can
there be health benefits but theenvironmental impacts that we
just talked about, withtransportation costs and fuel
and power and all of this tokeep that tomato in the perfect
state from where it leftArgentina to, you know, when it
gets to your grocery store.
You know, again, tax incentives.
(24:11):
I think another thing thatcould be talked about is, you
know, some of the undocumentedworkers stuff, because I think
there's a moral question that wehave to ask ourselves about the
potential for abuse, whetherit's financial, physical
potential for abuse, whetherit's financial, physical,
whatever that is, you know,should there be harsher
(24:31):
penalties for people that paythose type of workers?
I know that wouldn't be popularin the agricultural world.
I mean it might not be popular,but I mean it's an option to
keep you know.
Again, in any of the businessesthat I've ever been in, I don't
want an unfair advantage.
I don't want to.
You know, it's like playingsports.
I want to beat you when you areat your absolute best and I'm
(24:57):
at my absolute best and I wantto try to win.
I don't want to go run a raceagainst you when you've got a
broken leg and then telleverybody that I beat you.
That's not the way I want to doit.
I want to win because I workhard, I work smart, I do these
things and I want to win.
And so I think some of thethings that can be done just
(25:19):
level the playing field.
Level the playing field for us.
What's worked on your farm?
I mean, what do you guys do?
Send me some comments.
What do you guys do?
I'd love to talk about it.
What have you done on your farmto kind of combat these issues
that you're seeing?
I think another.
I'll encourage you follow theUSDA, the FDA and the USDA
(25:40):
closely to see the changes andlook for those advantages that
it might provide you and yourfarm and your business.
And talk to your legislators asthings are happening.
I mean, let them know youropinion, because you know what
Every legislator, every personin politics that I know they may
not care about you but theysure do care about your vote.
(26:01):
So you know we need to beletting them know what things
are important to us, otherwisethey're just going to make it up
.
You know, talk to them.
Most of the guys are prettyeasily accessible.
So you know, with that, have awonderful day.
I know it's a complicated issuewe've been talking about, but
understand both sides, talkabout it, kind of formulate your
(26:29):
opinion where you stand onthese issues, because, man,
we've got a lot of change comingup here in the next six months,
I think in the coming year.
So, anyway, good luck, godbless.
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