March 23, 2025 • 42 mins
I’ve got something a little different for you this week! 🎧
I was recently a guest on The Startup Support Surgery podcast, hosted by the brilliant Dr. Jo Watkins. While her podcast primarily speaks to GPs and medics exploring entrepreneurship, this episode dives into so much more—and I think you’ll find it incredibly valuable, no matter your industry or business type.
Here’s why you should tune in:
- A Rare Behind-the-Scenes Look: I rarely talk in-depth about my journey, but this interview gave me a chance to reflect on how I got here and how Kaffeen’s strategies resonate far beyond the creative world.
- Cross-Industry Insights: Whether you’re in the creative field or not, you’ll learn how the approaches we use to help creative agencies can be applied to other industries—including yours or your clients’.
- Practical Applications for Your Business: This episode is packed with actionable ideas and relatable moments that might just spark your next big idea.
- A Unique Compare-and-Contrast: Working with Dr Jo has been a fascinating opportunity to contrast her medical-to-entrepreneurial journey with my own experience. It’s an insightful conversation that highlights the value of adapting strategies to fit different contexts.
I’d love to hear your thoughts after listening—feel free to share what resonated most with you!
P.S. Whenever you’re ready, here are four ways I can help you attract more high-value clients—without the hustle:
đź“š Start with my free book
Join 3,000+ service providers and agency owners who’ve downloaded Client Magnet: 97 Proven Strategies and Tactics to Attract New Business and Scale Your Creative Agency Revenue.
(It’s written for agencies, but packed with advice any service provider can use.)
👉 Grab it free: https://kaffeen.co/book
🚀 Build your lead system with LinkedIn Lead Liftoff
A done-for-you lead generation system that brings in high-quality leads from LinkedIn—no content, cold calls, or awkward DMs required.
We’ll build it, set it up, and show you how to run it in under 30 minutes a day.
👉 Learn more: https://kaffeen.co/llo
🎧 Tune into the podcast
Get honest advice, expert interviews, and actionable tips to grow your service business with more clarity and less noise.
👉 Follow here: https://open.spotify.com/show/7upjztW0B3hQi2YlHTVdNn
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I work with a handful of clients each quarter to increase visibility, build authority, and land consistent £30k+ opportunities—with a system that runs on autopilot.
👉 Book a consult: ...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome to the podcasttoday.
(00:01):
Today's going to be a little bitdifferent.
It's actually a episode whereI'm interviewed by somebody who
has kind of been a contemporarycolleague and become a friend as
well, I think I can say, Dr.
Jo Watkins, who interviews me onher podcast, The Startup Support
Surgery, which is primarilydesigned to target GPs and
(00:25):
medics who are looking toventure out beyond their
existing roles and intoentrepreneurship.
But honestly, I find thisepisode just It's a really
interesting one to share, evenif you don't identify with that
job role, which you most likelydon't if you're in this podcast
audience.
And I thought it gave a reallyunique look at what elements of
(00:46):
what we do at Caffeine reallywork for other industries.
It might be that you'relistening and you're not a
creative agency, which is myprimary audience to date.
Or it might be that you haveclients that aren't most likely
aren't creative agencies and youmight listen to it and think,
hmm, I can see how this would behelpful to my business or their
(01:07):
business.
So I really encourage you togive it a listen.
I rarely really talk aboutmyself, my experience and how
I've arrived at this point andworking with Jo over the past
few months has offered me thisreally unique opportunity to
contrast her.
experience and knowledge andwhat she brings to the world and
(01:28):
career so far with my own.
And sometimes when we do thatcompare and contrast, it becomes
all the more clearer where wereally do add value.
Which especially as somebody whoworks primarily alone is a
really great, great opportunityto kind of get insight into.
Getting a bit novel gaysy, but Ireally do recommend listening to
this episode.
(01:49):
I think regardless of what yourbusiness type is, you're going
to find value and understand howelements of this can be applied
to your business.
Okay.
Hope you enjoy it.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (01:59):
Thank you.
And I have to say, I'm reallyappreciating your backdrop for
the people who are listening onaudio and don't know.
Joe is currently on a desertisland, according to Zoom.
And that really resonates withthe fact I just gave you.
So lovely to be here.
I love it.
Dr Jo Watkins (02:11):
I know I'm on my desert island that I every time
I switch on Zoom, I wish that Ilived there but I was just
saying it's a bit windy on myisland.
It is.
I can see why you're wearing ajumper.
Yeah, there's a lot of movement.
And I'd love to say that SwanseaBay looks a little bit like that
today, but it doesn't.
Before we get into the nittygritty, the citizenship of two
where are those two countries?
Britain and Italy.
(02:31):
Oh, nice.
Excellent.
And the five of the Italiansmade
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (02:35):
me work really hard to get that
citizenship.
It took me 14 years, but I wonin the end.
Dr Jo Watkins (02:41):
Amazing.
And what about the five thatyou've lived in?
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (02:45):
Oh, okay.
France.
Italy, Cambodia, South Korea,and I'm going to include
Dr Jo Watkins (02:51):
the UK as well.
Fabulous.
And before we went live, we werejust talking about talking about
how we go about working andtraveling, which is something we
can touch on a little bit intoin the sort of body of what
we're going to talk about.
So it is brilliant to have youhere.
I have had the absolute honorand pleasure of working with you
recently quite a lot.
So let's just go back a littlebit.
(03:13):
As I'm a doctor.
You're in this world that usdoctors look at and say, what
does that actually mean?
What does she actually do?
I don't understand because we'vebeen programmed to only
understand one thing.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe kind of people you help,
what you do, and maybe a littlebit about how we ended up
working together.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (03:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Is it okay if I just go back abit?
Yeah, absolutely.
So just before we hit record,Joe was telling me that she
wasn't aware of what a brand wasuntil relatively recently.
And I think I think this isreally key to the story because
I think we're often, we'rereally aware of what we know and
the track that we're stickingon.
And we're not always aware ofall the other opportunities and
(03:53):
the ways of doing things in theworld.
So I have been obsessed withbrand for as long as I can
remember, I have known that I'vewanted to work around the world
of brand but I was shit at artat school and I was like that
means I can't be a creativeperson.
I, at school and they just putyou into these, they just put
labels, it's like, You're notcreative.
You're the humanities person.
You're not a science person.
(04:13):
You'll never be a doctor.
It was like, you can't do allthree sciences at GCSE.
So those opportunities are offthe table for you, which is
something I've thought about alot when we've been working
together and the kind of themindset of who you work with.
So with that in mind I went touniversity to do marketing with
a kind of communication andfashion slant at Leeds Uni.
(04:34):
And then I I've worked with.
Creative agencies for the mostpart during my time in companies
as an employee as one of theonly non fee earning people
within the business, which is areally weird role to be in, in a
service provider.
So I have worked in raising theprofile and winning new business
for those agencies that's beenthe vast majority of my time in
(04:58):
industry.
And there was a bit of a.
I left my last agency that Iworked at full time and where I
was head of marketing a newbusiness and across three
different continents.
And we, I had an opportunity togo work with a tech startup, a
very well funded tech startup inSilicon roundabout.
(05:19):
It was the heyday of, of thatworld.
And there was so much moneygoing into it because of EIS
funding, et cetera.
And I came into this company whoreally they had no marketing
function whatsoever.
So it was completely blankslate.
And this was so weird for mebecause I'd come from working in
like really regimented kind ofenvironment.
Agencies are very precise.
They're like perfection.
(05:40):
Everything has to be done acertain way to tech startups,
which, the mantra of theindustry is.
Move fast and break things.
So I have this incredibleopportunity to experiment a lot
more.
And over the period of about sixmonths, I realized I'd learned
more in that six months period.
Then I had in the preceding 10years.
And if I could take myexperience in with technology
(06:02):
automation that I developedduring that tech startup
marketing role, and then bringit back to the agencies that I
really loved and missed workingwith, frankly, then it would.
We have the potential to reallyaccelerate what they were
capable of doing the reach thatthey had the new business
opportunities that would comein.
So I basically found it's thelittle bit, I don't know what
it's called in the Venn diagram,like that plus that equals
(06:24):
superpower.
So then I started my ownconsultancy, Caffeine
predominantly working withcreative agencies from one
person through to 250 people inmultiple countries, helping to
do exactly that.
We raise their profile.
help to draw new business intothem rather than go and cold
call or do ads or like justhammer people over the head with
(06:45):
a message when they don't wantto hear it.
I really positioned them as anauthority so that clients come
to them and stay and they'revisible in front of those
prospective clients as well.
And it was working really well,I've had caffeine for I think 10
years now, 10 years next year.
And so I knew it was goingreally well.
And over time I started gettingmore and more referrals and I
(07:06):
realized that it didn't justappeal to creative agencies,
even though that was mystronghold.
It really pretty much what I wasteaching them to do and what was
implementing for them.
It works for pretty much anyservice provider.
The, we do a variety of things,but the mainstay involves
LinkedIn.
And basically, if your client'son LinkedIn, it works for you.
That is the long
Dr Jo Watkins (07:27):
and short of it.
What a great story.
And I think a really goodexample of, like you say,
combining.
Everything combined, looking atwhat you love, what you're good
at what the world needs andgetting out there and actually
providing it in your own agency,taking everything that you've
learned along the way.
And that story is something thatyou hear about quite often.
In this sort of corporatemarketing setting, but it's
(07:49):
certainly not something we asmedics do.
We do the opposite.
We just go down this very linearpath of, escalating through the
through the grades until we getto a point where we then stay in
that job for the rest of ourlives.
And I remember somebody who I,who has helped me from early
days, finding that quite obscurebecause he's in the, in, when
(08:09):
you get to that point inbusiness, you at least move
company every four or fiveyears.
Every four or five years, keepit alive.
Whereas we're just in thiseither GP or consultant position
for a long time.
So thank you for telling that.
Cause I think it puts this incontext and we talked a bit
about brand right at thebeginning.
And I told you the story of whenI first started my, with my
(08:31):
granola company, 15 years ago, Iknew that I wanted to make this.
thing.
And I knew what it was and Iknew what I wanted to be called.
And somebody said you can get agrant for branding.
I was like what's branding?
And they were like to make itlook nice on the label.
I was like, oh, I thought I justdid that on, some, I don't know.
I don't know how I thought thathappened.
And a branding consultant, LucyAli Hopper, who's still around.
(08:52):
She's amazing.
She came around to the kitchentable.
And she was asking me whatbrands I liked.
And I was like, I don't reallyeven know what a brand is.
And she was like, okay.
We've got to start basic, go tothe cupboard, get your beans.
And she was brilliant.
So we don't know this stuff.
And I think sometimes we enterthis world of business, we
suddenly feel like a.
(09:13):
literally a fish out of water.
So learning from people like youis really important.
And, but, branding isessentially, the look and the
feel of your business, isn't it?
And why somebody is going tocome to you over somebody else.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And then the LinkedIn.
thing I'd like to talk about abit more.
So in terms of the branding andhow we market ourselves, can you
(09:34):
just tell us a little bit aboutthat as little people that are,
people with a lot of knowledgethat are going out there and
feeling like little fish in abig pond?
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (09:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
I, predominantly, it'sinteresting you mentioned the
two reference points behind,weren't they?
I spent the majority of my inagency career.
So when I was working withinbigger agencies, they were
predominantly brand andpackaging design companies
working with FMCG brands.
Now, that is a whole lot ofwords, but basically it means
things you find in the fridge,in the cupboard, things you find
(10:03):
in the supermarket.
There is such a phenomenalamount of money.
And thought and psychology and,it's mind blowing how much how
much energy is put into what thepackage looks like on the shelf.
Honestly, I could spend threeepisodes talking about that.
It's fascinating to me.
But what I do predominantly nowis is not on behalf of brands
(10:26):
that are consumer facing.
It's working with, so thingsthat lay people by in their
spare time.
It's working with.
service providers and businessesto shape their personal brand,
their company brand through notnecessarily what it looks like.
We're not a in fact, not at all.
We are not a, we're not reallyan agency.
More consultants, to be honest,we.
(10:48):
Very much have a teacher man tofish approach help you get
things set up.
And so you can continue tomanage them internally rather
than do it for you, because alot of small to medium sized
businesses don't, for variousreasons, either financial or
control reasons, don't want tobe working with an external
provider in the long term.
And I certainly felt that waywhen I was in agency.
(11:09):
So what we do, how we shape thatbrand from a business
perspective and just thinkingabout what would be most useful
to your audience.
I think so.
It's really interesting.
I now serve a lot of brandingand marketing agencies.
I've mentioned they're not theonly people that I serve, but
it's fascinating how they can dothis all day long for their
(11:31):
clients.
And they can't necessarily do itfor themselves.
And I just want to say that'suniversal, okay?
If that feels familiar it's justIt's like parenting.
Oh yeah, for sure.
You can
Dr Jo Watkins (11:41):
parent other people's children all the time.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (11:43):
Yeah, and for example, most of my
family works for the NHS.
My group In my mom's house, shedidn't own a thermometer and
sent me to school for two weekswith glandular fever because she
refused to believe I was sick.
So it's I don't know what you're
Dr Jo Watkins (11:54):
talking about.
No, but the,
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (11:55):
the things that we practice at work
don't necessarily apply, dothey?
When we're looking at our ownworld.
So that's the point that I wantto make with that.
So often I'm taking them back tobasics and thinking about, cause
they are often So the exercisethat we make anybody that we
work with do right at the verystart of working together is
define who they is their targetaudience.
(12:16):
And I hate the classic customerprofile, like avatar.
I hate going through that.
It's to me, it's such a waste oftime drawing a picture of what
that person's face looks like,but we do it through LinkedIn,
which really focuses the mindbecause that's ultimately what
we're going to be using the longterm.
So we use a tool called SalesNavigator.
It's a paid tool withinLinkedIn.
(12:38):
That is the main expense when,in terms of what we recommend
clients to do.
And it comes to, I think, around800 pounds a year at the moment.
Best money I spend in mybusiness.
And I'm sure we'll get onto thatlater on.
But we use the filters withinSales Navigator to really define
down who our target audience is.
On behalf of the client.
And then once we've defined thatdown, and trust me, that's not a
(12:59):
scary process.
It's actually really enjoyableif you like investigating
things.
It's a bit, it's like theSherlock Holmes kind of part of
the job, and I really love it.
I'm actually in a spiral ofdoing that right now.
Joe, we talked before we hitrecord about not being able to
meet on another app.
It's because I'm in SherlockHolmes mode and I've got.
20, 30 tabs open on LinkedInbecause I'm doing this for a
(13:23):
client right now just ahead ofour call.
And once we've defined who theaudience is, then we speak to
that audience.
And I promise I'm getting backto the point.
So we do customer listening.
And that basically is speakingwith a list of questions to
people who've either worked withyou or are.
Respectively would work with youin the future.
They're your kind of targetperson.
(13:45):
And we ask them a series ofquestions, which is designed to
really get under the skin ofwhat their hopes, dreams, fears,
pain points, challenges are andmore.
We pull all of that together andthen we analyze it and pull out
key themes.
And that is really what's at theheart of creating a a client led
(14:07):
brand.
And by that, I don't mean you'rejust like following behind them
like a little sheep.
It's making sure that your brandis consistently speaking to the
challenges, hopes, fears thatyour your prospective client
has.
Otherwise, it's just going tofall on deaf ears.
And if you do that, People thinkthat you're psychic.
They think that you understandthem to their core.
(14:29):
They're like, how do you knowthis stuff?
That's exactly me.
And it's really funny.
It's because they've just toldyou and then you're repeating it
back to them.
So that is the foundations ofhow we help to develop what your
brand personality would be likein terms of your marketing and
your content as a serviceprovider.
Dr Jo Watkins (14:47):
Brilliant.
And I think this, everythingyou're saying I'm seeing the
imprint on the stuff that I talkabout within my program.
And I, we, we, I suggest peopleget on calls, get on as many
calls as they can with theirideal clients or the type of
people that they think they wantto work with.
Yeah.
Only when you get in front ofthose people and ask those
people the right questions thatyou really understand.
(15:08):
What their problems are and howthey're feeling because
otherwise you're creating quiteoften in, in my experience, for
sure, you're creating a solutionto a problem that you have
potentially, but you haven'treally gone out there and
interviewed anyone else.
So it's almost like you've got acase study of one, which is
generally, quite often a problemthat you've come across yourself
(15:30):
and you've gone out there andcreated what you think is the
solution to the problem withoutdoing the interview.
Getting in front of people andthat's what you're doing on a
much bigger scale by doing this.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (15:39):
Yeah.
I know.
Do you mind if I just say a fewmore points about that?
Cause there are a few tips thatI think will be helpful.
First of all, you would notbelieve how many people think
that they can skip this se stepand it's not relevant to them.
It is the biggest mistake you'relikely to make if you don't get
this foundation level thingdone.
And I know it's a bit scaryespecially, and I have this
complete fear around speaking tomy own clients because I'm
(16:00):
scared.
What if I didn't perform orwhat, just classic.
Self esteem, so I get anindependent person to do this
for the most part.
I'm massively over deliveringand it's not actually a concern,
I'm not saying I'm immune to itis what I want to communicate
there, but do not skip it.
Just feel the fear and do itanyway, or get somebody else to
do it for you or speak to peopleyou haven't actually worked
(16:22):
with.
But all your prospectiveaudience, because then you don't
have to worry about what theysay about the experience of
working with you.
A couple of points that I reallyrecommend to encourage you to do
this.
We give our clients a list ofquestions to ask.
Often the conversation becomesmore organic, but they've got
questions to come back to, tomake sure that you're covering
(16:43):
off the points that you need.
And I really recommend going inwith structure and doing these
calls, not necessarily inperson.
But on Zoom, like we're speakingright now, I have this
incredible tool plugged in it'sfrom free, it's called Fathom, I
don't know if you've heard ofit, but it's it basically sits
in the room with you and recordswhat you're talking about,
creates a transcript afterwards,you also have the option to
(17:04):
click bookmarks if a point cameup that you really want to
remember, but basically you canfocus on talking, not note
making, and that's reallycrucial because This is the time
to be curious and to reallyprobe.
You don't want to be thinkingabout formulating your next
question, not really listeningto the answer because probably
there's kind of kernels within.
It's the classic psychologistapproach of, and what else?
(17:25):
And what else, like you keepasking that you get to the
really juicy stuff.
So you want to be able to focus.
So you can ask the what else atthe right points.
And Also, I recommend most ofthe people that I work with
carry around a Moleskinenotebook to all their meetings.
I don't know if you've probablygot one on the table, you can
relate.
I just recommend on the veryback page jot down whenever a
(17:46):
client, outside of a customerlistening environment jot down
when somebody complains aboutsomething, not just your kids,
but somebody you'd like to workwith, or they talk about what
they'd hope to do, or a trendthat they're concerned they're
not focusing on, or justanything.
And that is a really goodresource when you're thinking
about content creation, be itpodcast episodes, lead magnet,
(18:07):
website content social mediaposts, just that, that start
with that.
And then the final thing is.
Once you've got all that, andyou come in to analyze it, and
you're looking at this hugedocument of transcripts, this is
where it's really helpful to usesomething like ChatGPT.
Again, from free, put in all ofthe gum from all the transcripts
from the phone calls, all thenotes you've got at the back of
(18:29):
your Moleskine and ask it toanalyze it and group it so that
you've got key themes comingthrough, and then you've
basically got the foundation ofwhat you should be saying to
your audience.
Dr Jo Watkins (18:41):
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
Those are fantastic take homesguys and I'm going to link, link
those things that you talkedabout.
Fathom, I think, and the use ofChatGPT.
Again, most medics come out in avisible rash when I mention
ChatGPT because that's what'sthat all about?
That's going to take over theworld and it's really scary.
Yeah.
Getting through those ideablocks, generating content from
(19:01):
what you've got already,signposting you breaking things
down for you.
It's just unbelievable, but Ijust, I want to come back to a
couple of things that you havementioned.
And I love what you've justsaid.
I think it's really helpful.
I want to come back to thisteach a man to fish concept you,
that you talked about and.
(19:22):
Again, when we go in, when westep into this entrepreneurial
world as doctors, we oftenabsorb a huge amount of
information from huge numbers ofexperts.
Generally, lots of very glossypeople telling us how easy it is
to make money while we sleep,how, you can get to 10k months
within four months and thenleave your corporate job and how
life is so much better andglossier on the other side.
(19:45):
And I find a lot of people comein.
with a complete feeling offailure because they've not
achieved that in a very shortlength of time.
And I think some of this is putdown to, I've got to be able to
outsource everything, or I'vegot to learn to do everything,
and I've had both of thoseextremes within my Business
(20:05):
career.
One, initially I did everythingmyself with the granola.
I didn't outsource anything.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing.
The whole concept was alien tome through to the how people
where we outsourced a lot andgrew a team very quickly and
that has its differentchallenges.
So How important is it for us todo the things in business, for
(20:26):
us to understand these thingsrather than just letting go of
everything?
Because surely there's a,there's something here about
longevity, isn't there?
Yeah, it's about podcasting, forexample, and getting kids to
help.
And, can you speak a little bitabout doing it all yourself
versus outsourcing?
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (20:44):
Yeah, I wrote a lot of points down as
you're talking.
It made.
I was thinking about how mycompany has developed itself
because I really relate to whatyou're talking about.
10k a month, six figure businessreading Denise Duffield Thomas
books, like looking at MarieForleo, thinking course building
is the solution.
I don't know if any of thesewords I'm saying will resonate
(21:05):
with your audience, but I knowcertainly if you're in the
online business world, those arethings that will likely pass
through your mind at some point.
It's really.
I have shiny, massive shinyobject syndrome, and it's so
easy to get distracted.
So I'm going to say a fewthings.
They all relate back to eachother.
I think the center of what youtalked about was this kind of
(21:26):
idea of growing a team.
So a lot of people think growingyour revenue equals growing your
team and enlarging things thatway.
I think it's so important.
This is why we do the teacherbenefit approach started.
for a couple of reasons, becauseagencies have a really high
level of need of control.
When I was in my last agencyrole, I had a quarter of a
(21:47):
million pound a year budget.
Like it was not insignificant,but I ended up sacking all the
external agencies and support wewere using because we were
redoing everything because wehad such a high need for control
and having it just.
So I was like, this is the notnecessarily me, but this is the
reality of this workenvironment.
So actually outsourcing doesn'tnecessarily work for a lot of
(22:10):
audiences.
So don't think that growing ateam or getting extra support is
necessarily going to be the keyfor you and is really kind of,
tied in with this success andgrowth.
The other thing about that isit's super important to have
done it yourself first.
If you don't know how to do it,you will not know how to
(22:31):
outsource it in the mostefficient way.
You will end up wasting money,time, energy, you will write off
that channel, whatever I'mthinking.
If it was a marketing channel wewere outsourcing, like podcast
or social media, you will end upsaying, oh, it doesn't work
because you haven't briefed thatperson properly.
It doesn't mean they weren't agood person.
It doesn't mean it wouldn't workfor you.
So I think it's really importantto try things for yourself first
(22:53):
and understand what isimportant.
Now that then is mind blowing tothe average entrepreneur because
that means that you've got todo.
So you've got to do everythingand you don't.
So bringing it back again, Ithink it's really important to
understand what are theessentials, what to focus on.
And when you do have shinyobject syndrome, or it's just
overwhelming, you start enteringthis world and there are so many
(23:15):
messages and you're like, Okay,I will focus, but tell me what
to focus on.
It's really hard to findsomebody who's genuine and has
walked the walk, much like you,Joe, and is able to say, no, I
can tell you that's a dead end,but you, and, you should be
focusing on this, you should bethinking about that.
And that is what I offer to myclients as well.
It's those things you're doing,I did those, we didn't see any
(23:35):
return from it.
this is what is offering return.
So I recommend starting withthat.
So you are going to have to trya lot of stuff, but it's good to
have a list of stuff that isappropriate to your type of
business, your stage ofbusiness, your location, because
so much of the resources we lookat are from the U.
S.
where the audience type is verydifferent, consumer Behavior is
just very different.
(23:55):
So it's not necessarily suitedto your audience.
I think there's a couple ofother factors that come into
this as well.
I think it's really important tobe self aware and understand who
you are and what yourpersonality is.
So I, yeah, I am, not a therapysession, but it's there's so
many, I now see as you're askingthe question is oh yeah, that's
why my business took thatchannel.
So for example We'veexperimented with loads of
(24:18):
different marketing techniquesover the years.
The reality is I love havingconversations like this.
So now all of our marketingwaterfalls down, cascades down
from the podcast, which isessentially just started with me
recording conversations I washaving anyhow.
It wasn't like we went out thereand said, we're going to start a
podcast.
I just hit record on aconversation that I thought
(24:39):
would be useful to other people.
And how it's evolved is nowwe're curating.
So often it's, um, there's a lotof solo episodes there's a lot
of interviews as well.
We're interviewing our clients.
We're interviewing our ownclients.
We're interviewing prospectiveclients who are at stage further
on.
We're interviewing other serviceproviders who help our clients,
so we can understand what is thekind of hybrid, where do things
(24:59):
cross over.
But they're all conversationsthat I should be having in my
business for personal, what doyou call it?
Continuous professionaldevelopment.
I think my mom calls it.
She's an occupational therapist.
And it's that kind of thing.
So you think of it as that foryour non NHS role, if you have
your own business.
Dr Jo Watkins (25:17):
that.
So we have an appraisal systemin the NHS and we do CPD, we do
learning.
Yeah.
To get through our appraisal andit is the same.
I love that analogy.
I'm going to have to go andcreate some sort of feedback
about it, but it's just soright.
It is our continual professionaldevelopment and it is our
personal development and wecannot expect to outsource.
I think you're totally spot on.
(25:38):
Outsourcing stuff and notunderstanding means that you're
not giving the information andpeople you outsource need
information to be able to do agreat job and however amazing
they are.
So I think that's brilliant.
Can I add a couple of morethings on that?
Sorry.
I
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (25:53):
just wanted to say as well it's not
just about your personality.
It's about.
the reality of your life.
So the other thing was I waslooking to a lot of people when
I started my business who aresingle and don't have kids and
don't plan to and have all thistime to dedicate to their
business.
I have two small children.
(26:13):
I work part time.
Those things are not going tochange.
They're non negotiables for me.
It's really important to me thatI work, but I don't, I also need
to spend time with my localpeople and be at certain pickups
and drop offs.
Not all of them.
I need to be flexible so I cango read to my daughter's
classroom when I'm invited to at9am on a Wednesday morning.
They never give us enoughnotice, I'd like to be able to
(26:34):
participate in those things.
So it's really important to methat I don't create in Marketing
my own business, I don't createa a really rigid structure that
doesn't have flex.
Like I said, those conversationsthat we record for the podcast
are ones we would have anyhow.
They then become our podcast,they become our, the transcript
(26:55):
is the starting point for ourblog post it's the starting
point for our email that goesout or multiple emails, and all
of our social media content.
Both posts and snippets arelinked to newsletter.
So it just, it's just oneconversation and then everything
flows down from that.
So be realistic about your time,your personality, the things you
should be doing anyhow, and howthey can things can overlap,
Dr Jo Watkins (27:18):
yes, that's brilliant.
Absolutely brilliant.
And this, I think people thatare established, they know who
they want to help.
They're out there.
They're maybe they've got theirfirst five paying clients.
They're maybe looking towardshow to introduce group programs,
courses, that sort of thing.
Once you know who you're talkingto.
This is fantastic advice.
And I'm starting to see thatmyself in these conversations
(27:38):
that I'm having collaborative ofthings that I'm doing it all
links together.
I think for those who are veryearly days, this is a
conversation to listen back toas you go Through your your
journey without reaching out tosome of the shiny American
opportunity, listen, podcaststhat are out there.
This is real life, two mumstalking about how they grow
(28:00):
their business around theirfamily.
And I'm as guilty.
As anybody is occasionallythinking, God, I've created a
business that, now I'm sittingin front of zoom all day where
my daughter's doing her work onthe kitchen table, and I'm
popping in and out.
And, I've got that flex tocancel for sure.
But I've created quite a rigidday.
And I think it's sometimes.
(28:21):
You do create yourself a jobthat means that actually nobody
else can actually do what you'redoing anyway.
So you've got to be mindful ofwhat you're creating.
And I really bang on about thatpersonality type what you want
your life to look like, what,what you're actually signing up
to.
Brilliant.
Love that.
So we are going to just touchon, before we wrap up, we're
going to touch on this organicreach versus paid reach thing.
(28:45):
This is how we came to worktogether.
So I always say to my clients,your business and getting what
you do out there is going totake time or money or both.
And, you can stand with a loudhailer outside your house and
shout, or you can use some ofthe tools that are now
available, particularly for anonline business.
So I started off looking atFacebook ads and I've done some
(29:06):
Facebook ads, but I very, I'vedone that for a couple of
businesses and I've got someamazing people in my world that
help with Facebook ads.
But I've realized that myclients, entrepreneurial medics
are not on Facebook.
They're on LinkedIn.
They might be on Facebook intheir WhatsApp feeds, but
they're on LinkedIn.
I've been working with GemmaGilbert, you and I met through
Gemma and you put something as asuggestion to me.
(29:29):
Do you want to tell.
everybody what that was and howthat's looked for us.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (29:33):
Gosh, it was, I think we first started
talking specifically about thisin February and then lifelifed
and we didn't really do anythingabout or rather I didn't really
proactively do anything about itfor quite a long period of time
and then we were pivoting ourbusiness to more directly I
guess target beyond agencies.
Cause like I said, agencies werenaturally we were targeting
(29:54):
them, but naturally throughreferrals, we were getting
different kinds of business.
And I realized I was reallyenjoying working with
individuals who have more kindof sovereignty in their business
and ability to make decisionsand are really clear about who
they're serving.
Cause they're probably workingfor a very specific niche, just
like you are Joe.
So what we worked.
to set up is basically is what Iwould recommend anybody who
(30:19):
works with somebody who is aprofessional or so service
providers who work withprofessionals, whether they are
employed or self employed orlinkedIn is likely to be the
place where they're hanging out.
And LinkedIn is a massive,massively undertapped resource
in terms of building youraudience and finding clients
(30:40):
without spending a fortune.
So to give some context, thefirst five years.
No more.
Eight years of my business, weonly use LinkedIn.
We only use what I've set up foryou in order to win clients.
And it was enough.
And then I got all ambitiousafter I came back from my second
maternity leave.
And I was like, we're going togrow, we're going to take over
the world.
And spanked a load of money onFacebook ads and lived the hard
(31:05):
way.
And now I'm redoing that.
I've not given up.
Yeah, it's not something to giveup on, but it's a really easy
way to waste a lot of money.
Probably too early on in yourbusiness.
And LinkedIn, I would say, thinkof it as a kind of sandbox to
try things out that ultimatelyyou'll be able to move across to
and scale up on meta ads becausethere are caps in terms of what
(31:28):
you can do on LinkedIn thatdon't exist on other platforms
where you're actually paying fortraffic.
But it's a really good place totest things out.
Test out theories withoutspending a fortune.
And you know what?
It might just work and you mightnot need to go to another
platform.
And in which case, amazing,because I mentioned before that
Sales Navigator is 800 pounds ayear.
That could essentially be yourmarketing budget for finding
(31:48):
your audience.
And it was for us, like I said,for the vast proportion of time
that we've that Caffeine hasbeen in existence.
Sorry, the original questionwas, what have we done, right?
Dr Jo Watkins (31:57):
Yeah, I think that's what we've done, isn't
it?
We've gone out there and triedto find entrepreneurial medics
through us.
We don't, I don't think we needto go into the full details, but
it's it's getting that, like yousay, service providers who are
helping professionals having asystem.
To get good leads and lead, thiswhole leads word sometimes makes
(32:18):
people uncomfortable, but ifyou've created a business and
you're offering a service, youneed to find the people that
need the service.
There are people out there thatneed your product.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (32:26):
Yeah.
Dr Jo Watkins (32:26):
And it's about finding those individuals on
LinkedIn as opposed to Googleads or meta ads.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (32:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
And there is so there's so muchterminology around sales that
makes it really scary for peoplewho haven't necessarily had
sales as part of their businessbefore.
But if you think of it as thepeople who Hopefully, you're
targeting people who wouldlikely work with you, and then
you're hoping to engage and geton the radar of people who might
work with you at some point inthe next five years.
(32:54):
And then there are the the kindof much smaller number of people
who will be ready to reach towork with you right now.
And I think this can be shockingfor people who haven't done
sales and marketing before.
They just assume that they reachout, you create the thing and
they will flock.
Oh man, I can't tell you.
I did marketing at universityand I'm still constantly let
down by the lack of flocking.
So you just anticipate you'regoing to have to build a long
(33:17):
runway in your business in termsof outreach.
I was having a conversation theother day with somebody who said
that they were strategists.
They work with really hugecompanies.
And they said.
They believe after the manyyears in business that a founder
should be sending spending 70percent of their time on
marketing and sales, which ispetrifying, for the majority of
(33:37):
those people that applies to theprobably think that's not why I
started a business.
That's not why I'm in charge ofthis thing.
And essentially what we'vehelped.
You to set up on LinkedIn theway that we recommend to most
people as a starting point interms of marketing and outreach
so you can start getting on theradar of those potential clients
is has the ability to beautomated, which is amazing,
(33:59):
because it means that yes, youare like.
effort wise, your business isspending 70 percent of its time
doing outreach, but physicallyyou're not doing any of it.
You're responding to the peoplewho are genuinely interested in
what you're offering.
It also makes it less scarybecause, even for somebody who's
spent the whole career inmarketing and sales, like I
still get sweaty when I pick upthe phone to make a cold call,
(34:21):
like no one feels good aboutnecessarily doing that kind of
outreach.
So we.
There's a couple of things, notjust automation, because the
automation is doing it on yourbehalf and you're only
responding to the people who areinterested.
But we also, and the part wehaven't talked about here and we
haven't necessarily done withyour business, Joe, is we create
something you're going to bereaching out with that you're
(34:42):
really proud to reach out withbecause you know that it's
genuinely something that servesthe audience.
Which brings us back to thatclient listening exercise at the
beginning.
If you've really listened, andit doesn't have to be hard, it's
often called a lead magnet.
I don't know if your audience isfamiliar with that term.
could be a PDF.
I actually have a book.
Don't feel like you have to do abook.
My very first lead magnet was afive email sequence, which was
(35:06):
one tip a day for five daysabout how to attract clients to
your marketing agency.
It was just that it wasn'toverwhelming and actually had a
much better success rate thansome of the like.
Some of the much longer thingsthat I've done since so create
something based on what you didwhen you listened in and that
will serve the audience andreach out to them and say, Hey,
(35:26):
I created this thing.
I thought based on, yourprofile, I thought it might be
of interest.
Would you like a copy?
So you're not like hammeringthem with your work.
You're offering something thatis a value to them, which is
another reason that our clientsare proud to get in contact.
And yeah, and I think thatsummarizes it.
I think the majority of thepeople that we work with to give
you some context, they servetheir service providers, they
(35:50):
serve professionals in somecapacity, but the things that
unify them is they have feararound sales and new business
and marketing.
They don't have a lot of time.
They don't have a lot of moneyand they don't really have an
idea about where to start.
And that's ultimately who weserve.
This is.
This kind of LinkedIn practicethat we're talking about when we
take our clients through all ofthose stages, by the way,
(36:12):
defining your audience, buildingyour list, doing the client
listening, building somethingthat will be a value to them.
So building a lead magnet andthen reaching out to people and
then automating it and then whatyou do after that point.
So we take you through thatwhole process.
So if you were in a positionwith your business where it
might even be concept.
You might not even actually havea product or an idea, you might
(36:35):
be looking for evidence to leaveyour job then this would also
apply for you, you can gothrough all those steps and do
proof of concept basically.
Dr Jo Watkins (36:43):
Yeah, amazing, fantastic amazing.
And I think there'll be variouspeople at various points on that
journey.
And I think from the people thatwere within my program who have
gone from that medic who'sreally struggling to see how
they can do anything, through tous collating ideas and bringing
together and getting out thereand finding that proof of
concept.
They're often, at a positionwhere they've got an audience
(37:04):
that they want to help, andthey've often got a lead magnet
that they have put a lot of timeand effort into it.
And I think for those peoplethen to get out and find their
audience, but as I'veexperienced, I've been like, Oh,
is my lead magnet exactly what Iwant?
And you find yourself like,procrastinating a little bit and
you've got to believe inyourself enough to get started
with something, even though itmight not be perfect.
(37:26):
And you've mentioned a couple ofthings about, things like the
numbers of people that you needto bring into your audience who
might want to get a free thing,who then might want to get a
paid thing and then a biggerpaid thing.
We could talk for hours, but Ithink.
It's a conversation maybe for usto have a follow up conversation
and in six months or so, oncewe've done this for a bit longer
and seeing how it's going tofeedback with some results
(37:48):
maybe, because I think there's alot in this episode.
So I think, I know we've, Inormally ask for advice at the
end, but actually, I think we'vedone this the other way around.
We've gone with advice at the
Charlotte Ellis Mald (37:58):
beginning.
I think if I can offer one pieceof advice and it just touching
on what you said, seekcompletion, not perfection.
You're never, it's never goingto be perfect.
There are so many things thatyou should see the Asana board
between me and my assistants,which is like all the things
that I want to fix in thebusiness.
And, or you make shinier orbetter.
Yeah.
(38:18):
But if you wait, nothing willhappen.
So in perfect action, startbefore you're ready.
All of those adages, think less,do more.
These are the keys to beinglike, to getting moving.
A boss once said to me in mysecond day of a job, I was
absolutely petrified.
It was really scary.
It wasn't what I'd anticipated.
(38:39):
And he said, Charlotte, when dowe learn to cycle?
It was like, he wasn't.
British native, and so hisEnglish was a bit unusual, but
he was basically saying when doyou, when can you actually begin
to kind of cycle?
And it's like, when you get yourmomentum up, when you start
moving if you won't take yourfeet off the floor and you won't
just continuously pedal, thenyou're not actually going to do
the thing.
(38:59):
And I, at the time, I was like,what the hell is this guy
talking about?
And then in my leaving speech, Iactually said it back.
And it was like, that was thebest bit of advice I think I've
had, because you need to dosomething in order to iterate
and improve.
So just start.
Dr Jo Watkins (39:13):
Brilliant.
Amazing.
I will link you up in the shownotes, everything that you've
talked about, website, LinkedIn,and people can just reach out
and get in touch with you ifthey're interested in finding
out more.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I'd love that.
Okay.
Thank you so much for your time.
Bye bye.
Hello and welcome to the podcasttoday.
(00:01):
Today's going to be a little bitdifferent.
It's actually a episode whereI'm interviewed by somebody who
has kind of been a contemporarycolleague and become a friend as
well, I think I can say, Dr.
Jo Watkins, who interviews me onher podcast, The Startup Support
Surgery, which is primarilydesigned to target GPs and
(00:25):
medics who are looking toventure out beyond their
existing roles and intoentrepreneurship.
But honestly, I find thisepisode just It's a really
interesting one to share, evenif you don't identify with that
job role, which you most likelydon't if you're in this podcast
audience.
And I thought it gave a reallyunique look at what elements of
(00:46):
what we do at Caffeine reallywork for other industries.
It might be that you'relistening and you're not a
creative agency, which is myprimary audience to date.
Or it might be that you haveclients that aren't most likely
aren't creative agencies and youmight listen to it and think,
hmm, I can see how this would behelpful to my business or their
(01:07):
business.
So I really encourage you togive it a listen.
I rarely really talk aboutmyself, my experience and how
I've arrived at this point andworking with Jo over the past
few months has offered me thisreally unique opportunity to
contrast her.
experience and knowledge andwhat she brings to the world and
(01:28):
career so far with my own.
And sometimes when we do thatcompare and contrast, it becomes
all the more clearer where wereally do add value.
Which especially as somebody whoworks primarily alone is a
really great, great opportunityto kind of get insight into.
Getting a bit novel gaysy, but Ireally do recommend listening to
this episode.
(01:49):
I think regardless of what yourbusiness type is, you're going
to find value and understand howelements of this can be applied
to your business.
Okay.
Hope you enjoy it.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (01:59):
Thank you.
And I have to say, I'm reallyappreciating your backdrop for
the people who are listening onaudio and don't know.
Joe is currently on a desertisland, according to Zoom.
And that really resonates withthe fact I just gave you.
So lovely to be here.
I love it.
Dr Jo Watkins (02:11):
I know I'm on my desert island that I every time
I switch on Zoom, I wish that Ilived there but I was just
saying it's a bit windy on myisland.
It is.
I can see why you're wearing ajumper.
Yeah, there's a lot of movement.
And I'd love to say that SwanseaBay looks a little bit like that
today, but it doesn't.
Before we get into the nittygritty, the citizenship of two
where are those two countries?
Britain and Italy.
(02:31):
Oh, nice.
Excellent.
And the five of the Italiansmade
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (02:35):
me work really hard to get that
citizenship.
It took me 14 years, but I wonin the end.
Dr Jo Watkins (02:41):
Amazing.
And what about the five thatyou've lived in?
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (02:45):
Oh, okay.
France.
Italy, Cambodia, South Korea,and I'm going to include
Dr Jo Watkins (02:51):
the UK as well.
Fabulous.
And before we went live, we werejust talking about talking about
how we go about working andtraveling, which is something we
can touch on a little bit intoin the sort of body of what
we're going to talk about.
So it is brilliant to have youhere.
I have had the absolute honorand pleasure of working with you
recently quite a lot.
So let's just go back a littlebit.
(03:13):
As I'm a doctor.
You're in this world that usdoctors look at and say, what
does that actually mean?
What does she actually do?
I don't understand because we'vebeen programmed to only
understand one thing.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe kind of people you help,
what you do, and maybe a littlebit about how we ended up
working together.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (03:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Is it okay if I just go back abit?
Yeah, absolutely.
So just before we hit record,Joe was telling me that she
wasn't aware of what a brand wasuntil relatively recently.
And I think I think this isreally key to the story because
I think we're often, we'rereally aware of what we know and
the track that we're stickingon.
And we're not always aware ofall the other opportunities and
(03:53):
the ways of doing things in theworld.
So I have been obsessed withbrand for as long as I can
remember, I have known that I'vewanted to work around the world
of brand but I was shit at artat school and I was like that
means I can't be a creativeperson.
I, at school and they just putyou into these, they just put
labels, it's like, You're notcreative.
You're the humanities person.
You're not a science person.
(04:13):
You'll never be a doctor.
It was like, you can't do allthree sciences at GCSE.
So those opportunities are offthe table for you, which is
something I've thought about alot when we've been working
together and the kind of themindset of who you work with.
So with that in mind I went touniversity to do marketing with
a kind of communication andfashion slant at Leeds Uni.
(04:34):
And then I I've worked with.
Creative agencies for the mostpart during my time in companies
as an employee as one of theonly non fee earning people
within the business, which is areally weird role to be in, in a
service provider.
So I have worked in raising theprofile and winning new business
for those agencies that's beenthe vast majority of my time in
(04:58):
industry.
And there was a bit of a.
I left my last agency that Iworked at full time and where I
was head of marketing a newbusiness and across three
different continents.
And we, I had an opportunity togo work with a tech startup, a
very well funded tech startup inSilicon roundabout.
(05:19):
It was the heyday of, of thatworld.
And there was so much moneygoing into it because of EIS
funding, et cetera.
And I came into this company whoreally they had no marketing
function whatsoever.
So it was completely blankslate.
And this was so weird for mebecause I'd come from working in
like really regimented kind ofenvironment.
Agencies are very precise.
They're like perfection.
(05:40):
Everything has to be done acertain way to tech startups,
which, the mantra of theindustry is.
Move fast and break things.
So I have this incredibleopportunity to experiment a lot
more.
And over the period of about sixmonths, I realized I'd learned
more in that six months period.
Then I had in the preceding 10years.
And if I could take myexperience in with technology
(06:02):
automation that I developedduring that tech startup
marketing role, and then bringit back to the agencies that I
really loved and missed workingwith, frankly, then it would.
We have the potential to reallyaccelerate what they were
capable of doing the reach thatthey had the new business
opportunities that would comein.
So I basically found it's thelittle bit, I don't know what
it's called in the Venn diagram,like that plus that equals
(06:24):
superpower.
So then I started my ownconsultancy, Caffeine
predominantly working withcreative agencies from one
person through to 250 people inmultiple countries, helping to
do exactly that.
We raise their profile.
help to draw new business intothem rather than go and cold
call or do ads or like justhammer people over the head with
(06:45):
a message when they don't wantto hear it.
I really positioned them as anauthority so that clients come
to them and stay and they'revisible in front of those
prospective clients as well.
And it was working really well,I've had caffeine for I think 10
years now, 10 years next year.
And so I knew it was goingreally well.
And over time I started gettingmore and more referrals and I
(07:06):
realized that it didn't justappeal to creative agencies,
even though that was mystronghold.
It really pretty much what I wasteaching them to do and what was
implementing for them.
It works for pretty much anyservice provider.
The, we do a variety of things,but the mainstay involves
LinkedIn.
And basically, if your client'son LinkedIn, it works for you.
That is the long
Dr Jo Watkins (07:27):
and short of it.
What a great story.
And I think a really goodexample of, like you say,
combining.
Everything combined, looking atwhat you love, what you're good
at what the world needs andgetting out there and actually
providing it in your own agency,taking everything that you've
learned along the way.
And that story is something thatyou hear about quite often.
In this sort of corporatemarketing setting, but it's
(07:49):
certainly not something we asmedics do.
We do the opposite.
We just go down this very linearpath of, escalating through the
through the grades until we getto a point where we then stay in
that job for the rest of ourlives.
And I remember somebody who I,who has helped me from early
days, finding that quite obscurebecause he's in the, in, when
(08:09):
you get to that point inbusiness, you at least move
company every four or fiveyears.
Every four or five years, keepit alive.
Whereas we're just in thiseither GP or consultant position
for a long time.
So thank you for telling that.
Cause I think it puts this incontext and we talked a bit
about brand right at thebeginning.
And I told you the story of whenI first started my, with my
(08:31):
granola company, 15 years ago, Iknew that I wanted to make this.
thing.
And I knew what it was and Iknew what I wanted to be called.
And somebody said you can get agrant for branding.
I was like what's branding?
And they were like to make itlook nice on the label.
I was like, oh, I thought I justdid that on, some, I don't know.
I don't know how I thought thathappened.
And a branding consultant, LucyAli Hopper, who's still around.
(08:52):
She's amazing.
She came around to the kitchentable.
And she was asking me whatbrands I liked.
And I was like, I don't reallyeven know what a brand is.
And she was like, okay.
We've got to start basic, go tothe cupboard, get your beans.
And she was brilliant.
So we don't know this stuff.
And I think sometimes we enterthis world of business, we
suddenly feel like a.
(09:13):
literally a fish out of water.
So learning from people like youis really important.
And, but, branding isessentially, the look and the
feel of your business, isn't it?
And why somebody is going tocome to you over somebody else.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And then the LinkedIn.
thing I'd like to talk about abit more.
So in terms of the branding andhow we market ourselves, can you
(09:34):
just tell us a little bit aboutthat as little people that are,
people with a lot of knowledgethat are going out there and
feeling like little fish in abig pond?
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (09:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
I, predominantly, it'sinteresting you mentioned the
two reference points behind,weren't they?
I spent the majority of my inagency career.
So when I was working withinbigger agencies, they were
predominantly brand andpackaging design companies
working with FMCG brands.
Now, that is a whole lot ofwords, but basically it means
things you find in the fridge,in the cupboard, things you find
(10:03):
in the supermarket.
There is such a phenomenalamount of money.
And thought and psychology and,it's mind blowing how much how
much energy is put into what thepackage looks like on the shelf.
Honestly, I could spend threeepisodes talking about that.
It's fascinating to me.
But what I do predominantly nowis is not on behalf of brands
(10:26):
that are consumer facing.
It's working with, so thingsthat lay people by in their
spare time.
It's working with.
service providers and businessesto shape their personal brand,
their company brand through notnecessarily what it looks like.
We're not a in fact, not at all.
We are not a, we're not reallyan agency.
More consultants, to be honest,we.
(10:48):
Very much have a teacher man tofish approach help you get
things set up.
And so you can continue tomanage them internally rather
than do it for you, because alot of small to medium sized
businesses don't, for variousreasons, either financial or
control reasons, don't want tobe working with an external
provider in the long term.
And I certainly felt that waywhen I was in agency.
(11:09):
So what we do, how we shape thatbrand from a business
perspective and just thinkingabout what would be most useful
to your audience.
I think so.
It's really interesting.
I now serve a lot of brandingand marketing agencies.
I've mentioned they're not theonly people that I serve, but
it's fascinating how they can dothis all day long for their
(11:31):
clients.
And they can't necessarily do itfor themselves.
And I just want to say that'suniversal, okay?
If that feels familiar it's justIt's like parenting.
Oh yeah, for sure.
You can
Dr Jo Watkins (11:41):
parent other people's children all the time.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (11:43):
Yeah, and for example, most of my
family works for the NHS.
My group In my mom's house, shedidn't own a thermometer and
sent me to school for two weekswith glandular fever because she
refused to believe I was sick.
So it's I don't know what you're
Dr Jo Watkins (11:54):
talking about.
No, but the,
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (11:55):
the things that we practice at work
don't necessarily apply, dothey?
When we're looking at our ownworld.
So that's the point that I wantto make with that.
So often I'm taking them back tobasics and thinking about, cause
they are often So the exercisethat we make anybody that we
work with do right at the verystart of working together is
define who they is their targetaudience.
(12:16):
And I hate the classic customerprofile, like avatar.
I hate going through that.
It's to me, it's such a waste oftime drawing a picture of what
that person's face looks like,but we do it through LinkedIn,
which really focuses the mindbecause that's ultimately what
we're going to be using the longterm.
So we use a tool called SalesNavigator.
It's a paid tool withinLinkedIn.
(12:38):
That is the main expense when,in terms of what we recommend
clients to do.
And it comes to, I think, around800 pounds a year at the moment.
Best money I spend in mybusiness.
And I'm sure we'll get onto thatlater on.
But we use the filters withinSales Navigator to really define
down who our target audience is.
On behalf of the client.
And then once we've defined thatdown, and trust me, that's not a
(12:59):
scary process.
It's actually really enjoyableif you like investigating
things.
It's a bit, it's like theSherlock Holmes kind of part of
the job, and I really love it.
I'm actually in a spiral ofdoing that right now.
Joe, we talked before we hitrecord about not being able to
meet on another app.
It's because I'm in SherlockHolmes mode and I've got.
20, 30 tabs open on LinkedInbecause I'm doing this for a
(13:23):
client right now just ahead ofour call.
And once we've defined who theaudience is, then we speak to
that audience.
And I promise I'm getting backto the point.
So we do customer listening.
And that basically is speakingwith a list of questions to
people who've either worked withyou or are.
Respectively would work with youin the future.
They're your kind of targetperson.
(13:45):
And we ask them a series ofquestions, which is designed to
really get under the skin ofwhat their hopes, dreams, fears,
pain points, challenges are andmore.
We pull all of that together andthen we analyze it and pull out
key themes.
And that is really what's at theheart of creating a a client led
(14:07):
brand.
And by that, I don't mean you'rejust like following behind them
like a little sheep.
It's making sure that your brandis consistently speaking to the
challenges, hopes, fears thatyour your prospective client
has.
Otherwise, it's just going tofall on deaf ears.
And if you do that, People thinkthat you're psychic.
They think that you understandthem to their core.
(14:29):
They're like, how do you knowthis stuff?
That's exactly me.
And it's really funny.
It's because they've just toldyou and then you're repeating it
back to them.
So that is the foundations ofhow we help to develop what your
brand personality would be likein terms of your marketing and
your content as a serviceprovider.
Dr Jo Watkins (14:47):
Brilliant.
And I think this, everythingyou're saying I'm seeing the
imprint on the stuff that I talkabout within my program.
And I, we, we, I suggest peopleget on calls, get on as many
calls as they can with theirideal clients or the type of
people that they think they wantto work with.
Yeah.
Only when you get in front ofthose people and ask those
people the right questions thatyou really understand.
(15:08):
What their problems are and howthey're feeling because
otherwise you're creating quiteoften in, in my experience, for
sure, you're creating a solutionto a problem that you have
potentially, but you haven'treally gone out there and
interviewed anyone else.
So it's almost like you've got acase study of one, which is
generally, quite often a problemthat you've come across yourself
(15:30):
and you've gone out there andcreated what you think is the
solution to the problem withoutdoing the interview.
Getting in front of people andthat's what you're doing on a
much bigger scale by doing this.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (15:39):
Yeah.
I know.
Do you mind if I just say a fewmore points about that?
Cause there are a few tips thatI think will be helpful.
First of all, you would notbelieve how many people think
that they can skip this se stepand it's not relevant to them.
It is the biggest mistake you'relikely to make if you don't get
this foundation level thingdone.
And I know it's a bit scaryespecially, and I have this
complete fear around speaking tomy own clients because I'm
(16:00):
scared.
What if I didn't perform orwhat, just classic.
Self esteem, so I get anindependent person to do this
for the most part.
I'm massively over deliveringand it's not actually a concern,
I'm not saying I'm immune to itis what I want to communicate
there, but do not skip it.
Just feel the fear and do itanyway, or get somebody else to
do it for you or speak to peopleyou haven't actually worked
(16:22):
with.
But all your prospectiveaudience, because then you don't
have to worry about what theysay about the experience of
working with you.
A couple of points that I reallyrecommend to encourage you to do
this.
We give our clients a list ofquestions to ask.
Often the conversation becomesmore organic, but they've got
questions to come back to, tomake sure that you're covering
(16:43):
off the points that you need.
And I really recommend going inwith structure and doing these
calls, not necessarily inperson.
But on Zoom, like we're speakingright now, I have this
incredible tool plugged in it'sfrom free, it's called Fathom, I
don't know if you've heard ofit, but it's it basically sits
in the room with you and recordswhat you're talking about,
creates a transcript afterwards,you also have the option to
(17:04):
click bookmarks if a point cameup that you really want to
remember, but basically you canfocus on talking, not note
making, and that's reallycrucial because This is the time
to be curious and to reallyprobe.
You don't want to be thinkingabout formulating your next
question, not really listeningto the answer because probably
there's kind of kernels within.
It's the classic psychologistapproach of, and what else?
(17:25):
And what else, like you keepasking that you get to the
really juicy stuff.
So you want to be able to focus.
So you can ask the what else atthe right points.
And Also, I recommend most ofthe people that I work with
carry around a Moleskinenotebook to all their meetings.
I don't know if you've probablygot one on the table, you can
relate.
I just recommend on the veryback page jot down whenever a
(17:46):
client, outside of a customerlistening environment jot down
when somebody complains aboutsomething, not just your kids,
but somebody you'd like to workwith, or they talk about what
they'd hope to do, or a trendthat they're concerned they're
not focusing on, or justanything.
And that is a really goodresource when you're thinking
about content creation, be itpodcast episodes, lead magnet,
(18:07):
website content social mediaposts, just that, that start
with that.
And then the final thing is.
Once you've got all that, andyou come in to analyze it, and
you're looking at this hugedocument of transcripts, this is
where it's really helpful to usesomething like ChatGPT.
Again, from free, put in all ofthe gum from all the transcripts
from the phone calls, all thenotes you've got at the back of
(18:29):
your Moleskine and ask it toanalyze it and group it so that
you've got key themes comingthrough, and then you've
basically got the foundation ofwhat you should be saying to
your audience.
Dr Jo Watkins (18:41):
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
Those are fantastic take homesguys and I'm going to link, link
those things that you talkedabout.
Fathom, I think, and the use ofChatGPT.
Again, most medics come out in avisible rash when I mention
ChatGPT because that's what'sthat all about?
That's going to take over theworld and it's really scary.
Yeah.
Getting through those ideablocks, generating content from
(19:01):
what you've got already,signposting you breaking things
down for you.
It's just unbelievable, but Ijust, I want to come back to a
couple of things that you havementioned.
And I love what you've justsaid.
I think it's really helpful.
I want to come back to thisteach a man to fish concept you,
that you talked about and.
(19:22):
Again, when we go in, when westep into this entrepreneurial
world as doctors, we oftenabsorb a huge amount of
information from huge numbers ofexperts.
Generally, lots of very glossypeople telling us how easy it is
to make money while we sleep,how, you can get to 10k months
within four months and thenleave your corporate job and how
life is so much better andglossier on the other side.
(19:45):
And I find a lot of people comein.
with a complete feeling offailure because they've not
achieved that in a very shortlength of time.
And I think some of this is putdown to, I've got to be able to
outsource everything, or I'vegot to learn to do everything,
and I've had both of thoseextremes within my Business
(20:05):
career.
One, initially I did everythingmyself with the granola.
I didn't outsource anything.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing.
The whole concept was alien tome through to the how people
where we outsourced a lot andgrew a team very quickly and
that has its differentchallenges.
So How important is it for us todo the things in business, for
(20:26):
us to understand these thingsrather than just letting go of
everything?
Because surely there's a,there's something here about
longevity, isn't there?
Yeah, it's about podcasting, forexample, and getting kids to
help.
And, can you speak a little bitabout doing it all yourself
versus outsourcing?
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (20:44):
Yeah, I wrote a lot of points down as
you're talking.
It made.
I was thinking about how mycompany has developed itself
because I really relate to whatyou're talking about.
10k a month, six figure businessreading Denise Duffield Thomas
books, like looking at MarieForleo, thinking course building
is the solution.
I don't know if any of thesewords I'm saying will resonate
(21:05):
with your audience, but I knowcertainly if you're in the
online business world, those arethings that will likely pass
through your mind at some point.
It's really.
I have shiny, massive shinyobject syndrome, and it's so
easy to get distracted.
So I'm going to say a fewthings.
They all relate back to eachother.
I think the center of what youtalked about was this kind of
(21:26):
idea of growing a team.
So a lot of people think growingyour revenue equals growing your
team and enlarging things thatway.
I think it's so important.
This is why we do the teacherbenefit approach started.
for a couple of reasons, becauseagencies have a really high
level of need of control.
When I was in my last agencyrole, I had a quarter of a
(21:47):
million pound a year budget.
Like it was not insignificant,but I ended up sacking all the
external agencies and support wewere using because we were
redoing everything because wehad such a high need for control
and having it just.
So I was like, this is the notnecessarily me, but this is the
reality of this workenvironment.
So actually outsourcing doesn'tnecessarily work for a lot of
(22:10):
audiences.
So don't think that growing ateam or getting extra support is
necessarily going to be the keyfor you and is really kind of,
tied in with this success andgrowth.
The other thing about that isit's super important to have
done it yourself first.
If you don't know how to do it,you will not know how to
(22:31):
outsource it in the mostefficient way.
You will end up wasting money,time, energy, you will write off
that channel, whatever I'mthinking.
If it was a marketing channel wewere outsourcing, like podcast
or social media, you will end upsaying, oh, it doesn't work
because you haven't briefed thatperson properly.
It doesn't mean they weren't agood person.
It doesn't mean it wouldn't workfor you.
So I think it's really importantto try things for yourself first
(22:53):
and understand what isimportant.
Now that then is mind blowing tothe average entrepreneur because
that means that you've got todo.
So you've got to do everythingand you don't.
So bringing it back again, Ithink it's really important to
understand what are theessentials, what to focus on.
And when you do have shinyobject syndrome, or it's just
overwhelming, you start enteringthis world and there are so many
(23:15):
messages and you're like, Okay,I will focus, but tell me what
to focus on.
It's really hard to findsomebody who's genuine and has
walked the walk, much like you,Joe, and is able to say, no, I
can tell you that's a dead end,but you, and, you should be
focusing on this, you should bethinking about that.
And that is what I offer to myclients as well.
It's those things you're doing,I did those, we didn't see any
(23:35):
return from it.
this is what is offering return.
So I recommend starting withthat.
So you are going to have to trya lot of stuff, but it's good to
have a list of stuff that isappropriate to your type of
business, your stage ofbusiness, your location, because
so much of the resources we lookat are from the U.
S.
where the audience type is verydifferent, consumer Behavior is
just very different.
(23:55):
So it's not necessarily suitedto your audience.
I think there's a couple ofother factors that come into
this as well.
I think it's really important tobe self aware and understand who
you are and what yourpersonality is.
So I, yeah, I am, not a therapysession, but it's there's so
many, I now see as you're askingthe question is oh yeah, that's
why my business took thatchannel.
So for example We'veexperimented with loads of
(24:18):
different marketing techniquesover the years.
The reality is I love havingconversations like this.
So now all of our marketingwaterfalls down, cascades down
from the podcast, which isessentially just started with me
recording conversations I washaving anyhow.
It wasn't like we went out thereand said, we're going to start a
podcast.
I just hit record on aconversation that I thought
(24:39):
would be useful to other people.
And how it's evolved is nowwe're curating.
So often it's, um, there's a lotof solo episodes there's a lot
of interviews as well.
We're interviewing our clients.
We're interviewing our ownclients.
We're interviewing prospectiveclients who are at stage further
on.
We're interviewing other serviceproviders who help our clients,
so we can understand what is thekind of hybrid, where do things
(24:59):
cross over.
But they're all conversationsthat I should be having in my
business for personal, what doyou call it?
Continuous professionaldevelopment.
I think my mom calls it.
She's an occupational therapist.
And it's that kind of thing.
So you think of it as that foryour non NHS role, if you have
your own business.
Dr Jo Watkins (25:17):
that.
So we have an appraisal systemin the NHS and we do CPD, we do
learning.
Yeah.
To get through our appraisal andit is the same.
I love that analogy.
I'm going to have to go andcreate some sort of feedback
about it, but it's just soright.
It is our continual professionaldevelopment and it is our
personal development and wecannot expect to outsource.
I think you're totally spot on.
(25:38):
Outsourcing stuff and notunderstanding means that you're
not giving the information andpeople you outsource need
information to be able to do agreat job and however amazing
they are.
So I think that's brilliant.
Can I add a couple of morethings on that?
Sorry.
I
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (25:53):
just wanted to say as well it's not
just about your personality.
It's about.
the reality of your life.
So the other thing was I waslooking to a lot of people when
I started my business who aresingle and don't have kids and
don't plan to and have all thistime to dedicate to their
business.
I have two small children.
(26:13):
I work part time.
Those things are not going tochange.
They're non negotiables for me.
It's really important to me thatI work, but I don't, I also need
to spend time with my localpeople and be at certain pickups
and drop offs.
Not all of them.
I need to be flexible so I cango read to my daughter's
classroom when I'm invited to at9am on a Wednesday morning.
They never give us enoughnotice, I'd like to be able to
(26:34):
participate in those things.
So it's really important to methat I don't create in Marketing
my own business, I don't createa a really rigid structure that
doesn't have flex.
Like I said, those conversationsthat we record for the podcast
are ones we would have anyhow.
They then become our podcast,they become our, the transcript
(26:55):
is the starting point for ourblog post it's the starting
point for our email that goesout or multiple emails, and all
of our social media content.
Both posts and snippets arelinked to newsletter.
So it just, it's just oneconversation and then everything
flows down from that.
So be realistic about your time,your personality, the things you
should be doing anyhow, and howthey can things can overlap,
Dr Jo Watkins (27:18):
yes, that's brilliant.
Absolutely brilliant.
And this, I think people thatare established, they know who
they want to help.
They're out there.
They're maybe they've got theirfirst five paying clients.
They're maybe looking towardshow to introduce group programs,
courses, that sort of thing.
Once you know who you're talkingto.
This is fantastic advice.
And I'm starting to see thatmyself in these conversations
(27:38):
that I'm having collaborative ofthings that I'm doing it all
links together.
I think for those who are veryearly days, this is a
conversation to listen back toas you go Through your your
journey without reaching out tosome of the shiny American
opportunity, listen, podcaststhat are out there.
This is real life, two mumstalking about how they grow
(28:00):
their business around theirfamily.
And I'm as guilty.
As anybody is occasionallythinking, God, I've created a
business that, now I'm sittingin front of zoom all day where
my daughter's doing her work onthe kitchen table, and I'm
popping in and out.
And, I've got that flex tocancel for sure.
But I've created quite a rigidday.
And I think it's sometimes.
(28:21):
You do create yourself a jobthat means that actually nobody
else can actually do what you'redoing anyway.
So you've got to be mindful ofwhat you're creating.
And I really bang on about thatpersonality type what you want
your life to look like, what,what you're actually signing up
to.
Brilliant.
Love that.
So we are going to just touchon, before we wrap up, we're
going to touch on this organicreach versus paid reach thing.
(28:45):
This is how we came to worktogether.
So I always say to my clients,your business and getting what
you do out there is going totake time or money or both.
And, you can stand with a loudhailer outside your house and
shout, or you can use some ofthe tools that are now
available, particularly for anonline business.
So I started off looking atFacebook ads and I've done some
(29:06):
Facebook ads, but I very, I'vedone that for a couple of
businesses and I've got someamazing people in my world that
help with Facebook ads.
But I've realized that myclients, entrepreneurial medics
are not on Facebook.
They're on LinkedIn.
They might be on Facebook intheir WhatsApp feeds, but
they're on LinkedIn.
I've been working with GemmaGilbert, you and I met through
Gemma and you put something as asuggestion to me.
(29:29):
Do you want to tell.
everybody what that was and howthat's looked for us.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (29:33):
Gosh, it was, I think we first started
talking specifically about thisin February and then lifelifed
and we didn't really do anythingabout or rather I didn't really
proactively do anything about itfor quite a long period of time
and then we were pivoting ourbusiness to more directly I
guess target beyond agencies.
Cause like I said, agencies werenaturally we were targeting
(29:54):
them, but naturally throughreferrals, we were getting
different kinds of business.
And I realized I was reallyenjoying working with
individuals who have more kindof sovereignty in their business
and ability to make decisionsand are really clear about who
they're serving.
Cause they're probably workingfor a very specific niche, just
like you are Joe.
So what we worked.
to set up is basically is what Iwould recommend anybody who
(30:19):
works with somebody who is aprofessional or so service
providers who work withprofessionals, whether they are
employed or self employed orlinkedIn is likely to be the
place where they're hanging out.
And LinkedIn is a massive,massively undertapped resource
in terms of building youraudience and finding clients
(30:40):
without spending a fortune.
So to give some context, thefirst five years.
No more.
Eight years of my business, weonly use LinkedIn.
We only use what I've set up foryou in order to win clients.
And it was enough.
And then I got all ambitiousafter I came back from my second
maternity leave.
And I was like, we're going togrow, we're going to take over
the world.
And spanked a load of money onFacebook ads and lived the hard
(31:05):
way.
And now I'm redoing that.
I've not given up.
Yeah, it's not something to giveup on, but it's a really easy
way to waste a lot of money.
Probably too early on in yourbusiness.
And LinkedIn, I would say, thinkof it as a kind of sandbox to
try things out that ultimatelyyou'll be able to move across to
and scale up on meta ads becausethere are caps in terms of what
(31:28):
you can do on LinkedIn thatdon't exist on other platforms
where you're actually paying fortraffic.
But it's a really good place totest things out.
Test out theories withoutspending a fortune.
And you know what?
It might just work and you mightnot need to go to another
platform.
And in which case, amazing,because I mentioned before that
Sales Navigator is 800 pounds ayear.
That could essentially be yourmarketing budget for finding
(31:48):
your audience.
And it was for us, like I said,for the vast proportion of time
that we've that Caffeine hasbeen in existence.
Sorry, the original questionwas, what have we done, right?
Dr Jo Watkins (31:57):
Yeah, I think that's what we've done, isn't
it?
We've gone out there and triedto find entrepreneurial medics
through us.
We don't, I don't think we needto go into the full details, but
it's it's getting that, like yousay, service providers who are
helping professionals having asystem.
To get good leads and lead, thiswhole leads word sometimes makes
(32:18):
people uncomfortable, but ifyou've created a business and
you're offering a service, youneed to find the people that
need the service.
There are people out there thatneed your product.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (32:26):
Yeah.
Dr Jo Watkins (32:26):
And it's about finding those individuals on
LinkedIn as opposed to Googleads or meta ads.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (32:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
And there is so there's so muchterminology around sales that
makes it really scary for peoplewho haven't necessarily had
sales as part of their businessbefore.
But if you think of it as thepeople who Hopefully, you're
targeting people who wouldlikely work with you, and then
you're hoping to engage and geton the radar of people who might
work with you at some point inthe next five years.
(32:54):
And then there are the the kindof much smaller number of people
who will be ready to reach towork with you right now.
And I think this can be shockingfor people who haven't done
sales and marketing before.
They just assume that they reachout, you create the thing and
they will flock.
Oh man, I can't tell you.
I did marketing at universityand I'm still constantly let
down by the lack of flocking.
So you just anticipate you'regoing to have to build a long
(33:17):
runway in your business in termsof outreach.
I was having a conversation theother day with somebody who said
that they were strategists.
They work with really hugecompanies.
And they said.
They believe after the manyyears in business that a founder
should be sending spending 70percent of their time on
marketing and sales, which ispetrifying, for the majority of
(33:37):
those people that applies to theprobably think that's not why I
started a business.
That's not why I'm in charge ofthis thing.
And essentially what we'vehelped.
You to set up on LinkedIn theway that we recommend to most
people as a starting point interms of marketing and outreach
so you can start getting on theradar of those potential clients
is has the ability to beautomated, which is amazing,
(33:59):
because it means that yes, youare like.
effort wise, your business isspending 70 percent of its time
doing outreach, but physicallyyou're not doing any of it.
You're responding to the peoplewho are genuinely interested in
what you're offering.
It also makes it less scarybecause, even for somebody who's
spent the whole career inmarketing and sales, like I
still get sweaty when I pick upthe phone to make a cold call,
(34:21):
like no one feels good aboutnecessarily doing that kind of
outreach.
So we.
There's a couple of things, notjust automation, because the
automation is doing it on yourbehalf and you're only
responding to the people who areinterested.
But we also, and the part wehaven't talked about here and we
haven't necessarily done withyour business, Joe, is we create
something you're going to bereaching out with that you're
(34:42):
really proud to reach out withbecause you know that it's
genuinely something that servesthe audience.
Which brings us back to thatclient listening exercise at the
beginning.
If you've really listened, andit doesn't have to be hard, it's
often called a lead magnet.
I don't know if your audience isfamiliar with that term.
could be a PDF.
I actually have a book.
Don't feel like you have to do abook.
My very first lead magnet was afive email sequence, which was
(35:06):
one tip a day for five daysabout how to attract clients to
your marketing agency.
It was just that it wasn'toverwhelming and actually had a
much better success rate thansome of the like.
Some of the much longer thingsthat I've done since so create
something based on what you didwhen you listened in and that
will serve the audience andreach out to them and say, Hey,
(35:26):
I created this thing.
I thought based on, yourprofile, I thought it might be
of interest.
Would you like a copy?
So you're not like hammeringthem with your work.
You're offering something thatis a value to them, which is
another reason that our clientsare proud to get in contact.
And yeah, and I think thatsummarizes it.
I think the majority of thepeople that we work with to give
you some context, they servetheir service providers, they
(35:50):
serve professionals in somecapacity, but the things that
unify them is they have feararound sales and new business
and marketing.
They don't have a lot of time.
They don't have a lot of moneyand they don't really have an
idea about where to start.
And that's ultimately who weserve.
This is.
This kind of LinkedIn practicethat we're talking about when we
take our clients through all ofthose stages, by the way,
(36:12):
defining your audience, buildingyour list, doing the client
listening, building somethingthat will be a value to them.
So building a lead magnet andthen reaching out to people and
then automating it and then whatyou do after that point.
So we take you through thatwhole process.
So if you were in a positionwith your business where it
might even be concept.
You might not even actually havea product or an idea, you might
(36:35):
be looking for evidence to leaveyour job then this would also
apply for you, you can gothrough all those steps and do
proof of concept basically.
Dr Jo Watkins (36:43):
Yeah, amazing, fantastic amazing.
And I think there'll be variouspeople at various points on that
journey.
And I think from the people thatwere within my program who have
gone from that medic who'sreally struggling to see how
they can do anything, through tous collating ideas and bringing
together and getting out thereand finding that proof of
concept.
They're often, at a positionwhere they've got an audience
(37:04):
that they want to help, andthey've often got a lead magnet
that they have put a lot of timeand effort into it.
And I think for those peoplethen to get out and find their
audience, but as I'veexperienced, I've been like, Oh,
is my lead magnet exactly what Iwant?
And you find yourself like,procrastinating a little bit and
you've got to believe inyourself enough to get started
with something, even though itmight not be perfect.
(37:26):
And you've mentioned a couple ofthings about, things like the
numbers of people that you needto bring into your audience who
might want to get a free thing,who then might want to get a
paid thing and then a biggerpaid thing.
We could talk for hours, but Ithink.
It's a conversation maybe for usto have a follow up conversation
and in six months or so, oncewe've done this for a bit longer
and seeing how it's going tofeedback with some results
(37:48):
maybe, because I think there's alot in this episode.
So I think, I know we've, Inormally ask for advice at the
end, but actually, I think we'vedone this the other way around.
We've gone with advice at the
Charlotte Ellis Mald (37:58):
beginning.
I think if I can offer one pieceof advice and it just touching
on what you said, seekcompletion, not perfection.
You're never, it's never goingto be perfect.
There are so many things thatyou should see the Asana board
between me and my assistants,which is like all the things
that I want to fix in thebusiness.
And, or you make shinier orbetter.
Yeah.
(38:18):
But if you wait, nothing willhappen.
So in perfect action, startbefore you're ready.
All of those adages, think less,do more.
These are the keys to beinglike, to getting moving.
A boss once said to me in mysecond day of a job, I was
absolutely petrified.
It was really scary.
It wasn't what I'd anticipated.
(38:39):
And he said, Charlotte, when dowe learn to cycle?
It was like, he wasn't.
British native, and so hisEnglish was a bit unusual, but
he was basically saying when doyou, when can you actually begin
to kind of cycle?
And it's like, when you get yourmomentum up, when you start
moving if you won't take yourfeet off the floor and you won't
just continuously pedal, thenyou're not actually going to do
the thing.
(38:59):
And I, at the time, I was like,what the hell is this guy
talking about?
And then in my leaving speech, Iactually said it back.
And it was like, that was thebest bit of advice I think I've
had, because you need to dosomething in order to iterate
and improve.
So just start.
Dr Jo Watkins (39:13):
Brilliant.
Amazing.
I will link you up in the shownotes, everything that you've
talked about, website, LinkedIn,and people can just reach out
and get in touch with you ifthey're interested in finding
out more.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I'd love that.
Okay.
Thank you so much for your time.
Bye bye.
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