March 16, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode of Kaffeen Espresso, I sit down with my former colleague and strategic powerhouse, Laura Pearlstein Mills—founder of Cider. With over 15 years of brand strategy experience spanning luxury fashion, FMCG, logistics, and tech, Laura shares insights into the power of purpose-driven branding, her experience on the prestigious WPP fellowship, and how her multi-disciplinary career has shaped her unique perspective.
We discuss:
- The impact of the WPP fellowship and how it shaped Laura’s career
- What agencies can learn from smaller businesses when it comes to talent development
- The balance between staying niche vs. chasing trends
- How brands can lead in times of political and economic uncertainty
- The power of listening in creative business success
- Laura’s move between agency and client-side roles and what she’s learned along the way
It’s an insightful conversation about brand strategy, industry evolution, and the importance of adaptability in business.
🔗 Connect with Laura Pearlstein Mills:
Website: https://www.ciderbrand.co/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurapearlsteinmills/
P.S. Whenever you’re ready, here are four ways I can help you attract more high-value clients—without the hustle:
📚 Start with my free book
Join 3,000+ service providers and agency owners who’ve downloaded Client Magnet: 97 Proven Strategies and Tactics to Attract New Business and Scale Your Creative Agency Revenue.
(It’s written for agencies, but packed with advice any service provider can use.)
👉 Grab it free: https://kaffeen.co/book
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A done-for-you lead generation system that brings in high-quality leads from LinkedIn—no content, cold calls, or awkward DMs required.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (00:00):
Welcome to the Kaffeen Espresso podcast
(00:02):
today, and I am so excited tosay I have got an old colleague
of mine and a self describedtrue left and right brain
thinker, which I can completelytestify to.
Laura has over 15 years ofinternational and
interdisciplinary brandstrategy, marketing,
communications experience, andshe believes passionately in the
(00:22):
power of purpose and creativityto spark behavior change,
business results, and employeeengagement.
Having worked across industriesas varied as packaged goods,
luxury fashion, logistics, andtech, Laura brings rigorous
thinking and compellingnarratives to her clients
brands, whether they're bluechip behemoths or scrappy
(00:42):
startups.
She began her career on theprestigious WPP fellowship,
which we're going to touch onduring this conversation and has
worked in New York and Londonfor global creative agencies,
including Ogilvy, Landor andBrand Opus, which is where we
work together.
Laura graduated from Dartmouthcollege with a degree in
history, and she lives inWashington, DC with her husband
(01:03):
and two children.
So I'd like to welcome LauraMills to the podcast today.
Hi, Laura.
I am so happy to be here andglad to see you.
Me too.
So this conversation originallystarted because you were in
London last summer and we had acatch up at the Grind on London
(01:24):
Bridge, I think, and Scorchioday, I think I had an iced
coffee and was very sweaty andprobably not completely with it,
but it was super good to catchup with you because I feel like
despite the odd email here andthere and maybe a comment on
social media, we haven't had aproper conversation since we
worked together.
And it was just really amazingto touch base with somebody who
(01:46):
Has worked in a similar kind ofbackground also has two kids, is
balancing the life, the work,the everything, albeit on a
different continent So, we, wechatted through how 2024 played
out thus far for both of us andwe thought it'd be really good
to catch up.
Later in autumn, although nowit's January when we're
recording this.
(02:07):
Which, you know, just goes toshow you the balance between
work and home.
But really good to kind of catchup on and extend the topics we
talked about then.
So yeah, how've
you been?
I've been well, I've been well.
We are having an arctic blasthere, so it's a sharp contrast
to the the heat wave that weexperienced in London together
last summer, but no, all is wellmy kids are back in school after
(02:28):
a four day weekend, so you know,always a great day for working
parents when your kids finallygo back to school.
No, it was MLK Day yesterday,right?
MLK Day, and the inauguration,which
we just won't talk about.
The less said the better.
Yeah, it was just MLK Day.
Okay.
Day.
Yeah, let's focus on
him.
Let's focus on
him.
So you've had some exciting newsin the last week, which
(02:49):
hopefully we're gonna touch onhere as well.
But I feel like that actuallyreinforces some of the topics
we're going to talk about here.
we touched on the WPP fellowshipback in that intro.
And I just want to ask you a bitmore on that.
You talked a lot about thefellowship when we've chatted
before, emphasizing exposure todifferent areas of the industry
(03:13):
and within agency, how has thatshaped your view of creative
businesses and.
in kind of maybe a pottedhistory of how you got to this
point and how that kind of droveyou on your career path.
Totally.
So for me, the WPP fellowship,which sadly is not around in its
at least not in its former form.
It, it was central to both mysort of.
(03:36):
Entree into this industry and mynetwork within this industry
and, and really the, the waythat I view this industry.
So it was a brilliant three yearrotational scheme that Sir
Martin Sorrell started back ataround in the late nineties, I
believe.
And I, I graduated fromuniversity in 2007 and was
really lucky to get onto thescheme straight out of school or
university, I suppose, for your,for your British audience.
(03:58):
And the premise of thefellowship was really to sort of
train up the next generation ofagency leaders for WPP.
And really central to that, atleast in Martin's view, was
exposure to different markets.
So the idea was that you wouldspend three different years in
three different cities or evenon three different continents.
(04:19):
I only made it to two because Igot stuck in London and fell in
love with both the city and mynow husband.
And and also to spend threedifferent years across different
areas of the sort of marketingcommunications world, creative
services world.
And so I spent time in atraditional advertising agency
in Ogilvy, New York at Landor inLondon branding.
(04:39):
And then I finished up my, myfellowship working at a now
defunct digital shop calledDigit and then ended up doing a
few months as well at ColeyPorter Bell.
So sort of doubling down onbranding, which is really where
a lot of my, of my passion sits.
And I think that sense of havingthis.
interdisciplinary lens throughwhich you view the industry and
(05:04):
the experience of working indifferent, even frankly,
business structures, right?
The difference between aretained relationship with a,
with a client at at Ogilvy isvery different to the project
based work we tend to do inbranding.
And, you know, learning to usetools like Google analytics,
which Sadly is kind of as far asI got in terms of digital tools,
(05:26):
but I was addicted.
Remember it was 2009.
So I think Instagram launchedwhile I was there.
So that tells you, I mean, therewas there was no Twitter.
And certainly no Snapchat, noTikTok all the things.
So it was a very differentlandscape when I was sort of
dabbling in a digital first ordigital only agency.
Anyway, all this to say, I yeah.
I've just always had thatbreadth of perspective really
(05:49):
central to how I think aboutwhat my career could be.
And then potentially also alittle bit of a little bit of
maybe more confidence than wasdeserved, but so the sense that
I could do anything, that I wasnot constrained merely by sort
of the type of agency I was inat the moment, but rather that I
had the skills and the potentialto flex across different areas
of the creative services world.
(06:10):
When you came to Brandopus, I
remember just being in awe atyour, your, so I, I think
there's like a sometimes inagency world, the client is put
so high on a pedestal that we'rescared to say anything, scared
to do anything.
And I remember when you came in,you were just like, no, this is
the way it is.
This is an objective view ofthings.
(06:32):
And I was just like, Who is thisperson and how is she younger
than me and how does she, like,how can she objectively see all
of this stuff?
And I mean, I mean this in thenicest possible sense, you know,
the, I, I feel like I looked onfrom afar and learned a lot from
the way you approach projects,even though I wasn't a project
(06:52):
based person.
I think, you know, what, whenyou're talking through that,
what I saw was somebody who I'veseen lots of different facets of
their clients businesses andworked in them in different
ways, with them in differentways at different agency types.
And so had a betterunderstanding of, intuitive
(07:13):
understanding, roundedunderstanding of what that
client needed.
Instead of just like whackingthem over the head with, you
need a redesign, you need a newwebsite, you know, the same
thing again and again.
Regardless of who the clientwas, it felt like from what I
could see, it felt like atailored approach based on the
true challenge that the clientfaced rather than what suited
(07:34):
the agency.
Would you say that's fair?
I mean, thank you.
That's very kind.
I think that's true.
And I think another aspect of myown story that I haven't
mentioned yet is the fact thatI've worked, you know, the, the,
the first few years of my careerwere spent in a.
Pure strategy role.
And then I actually had aninteresting opportunity to get
into agency operations.
I was the chief of staff forLandor's Global CEO.
(07:55):
Wow, I didn't know that.
In a similar capacity for ourhead of key client
relationships.
And so I got to see under thehood of sort of the business of
the agency in a way that wasincredibly valuable.
And you know, really, that was areal sort of once in a lifetime
chance.
I mean, it's very hard to get aperspective like that when
(08:17):
you're in your mid twenties.
And then from there I actually,because I was convinced that I
too was going to be a CEO Ishifted into more of an account
management and accountleadership role.
And so I had all these differentperspectives that I think, you
know, have ultimately beenincredibly valuable for me.
And so by the time I, I came toBrand Opus, I had been up a
(08:37):
strategist and had been anaccount lead.
And so you can't unlearn way ofthinking about things as a
strategist, right?
You, you sort of learn to gothrough the world in a certain
way and think about things in acertain way, and you can't turn
that off even you're.
new business cards as accountdirector.
So yes, of course, you'reresponsible for running a
(08:57):
profitable relationship with theclient and managing resources
internally and, you know,rallying the troops and getting
the creatives on board andexcited.
But you're still thinking reallycritically about, about the, the
client and their business.
And so learning to sort ofjuggle all of those things has
been really central, I think, tothe success that I've had.
And what do you say?
(09:18):
I'm really curious, like, causethe, the, the fellowship sounds
like it was.
It was, you know, you saidyourself it was to shape future
agency leaders and hopefullythey would remain in the WPP
group, I expect is what he wasanticipating with that program.
So what, at what point did youshift from thinking, yes, I'm
going to be a CEO to somethingdifferent?
Was it life changes or was itlike a real passion for one
(09:39):
particular area of what you do?
I'd say honestly, it was sort oflife changes and a recalibration
of my priorities and mentalhealth and family and you know,
an experience I had of leavingagency world altogether for a
few years to go and work in thefamily business, which is a
story for another day and besttold over wine or coffee.
But I think resetting my ownsense of what success looks like
(10:06):
and what.
level of, of control I waslooking for in my own career is
ultimately what led me to go offon my own.
I will go back and just make apoint that the fellowship was
successful and, but, you know,by many standards, I mean,
certainly personally, many of mybest friends are from the
fellowship and I'm so gratefulfor the mentorship and
everything that I was able toget through that program.
(10:28):
And I ended up boomeranging.
And so, you know, have very deepseated sort of love for the WPP
that I grew up in.
And many, many leaders withinthe firm were folks who
graduated from the, from thefellowship.
So there continue to be a lot ofincredibly senior leaders who
are peers of mine, who now havejob titles that far surpass
anything that I, that I've everhad who have really, you know,
(10:50):
stuck it out and are, you know,are proof positive that that
Perspective and, you know, the,the way that they hired and the
way that they looked for talent,you know, has borne fruit really
for the, for the group.
So you know, the flip side ofthat is that it's several of us,
it turns out we're a bit, a bitornery and maybe chafed a little
bit against the constraints ofthe corporate structure.
And so some of us have gonecompletely wild and and left the
(11:13):
industry altogether.
And we've got folks who areartists and hotel consultants
and doing all sorts of amazingother things, but got their
start on the fellowship, justlike I did.
Katie Katie Brinsmead Stockham.
She's, she was a friend throughthe fellowship as well, wasn't
she?
Yes, absolutely.
Have you interviewed her?
No, I haven't.
Actually you connected us when Iwas in a tech startup and we had
(11:34):
a conversation about hercommunity strategy for the
business, but it was at a timewhere she was really, she was
kind of doubling down onhospitality and it was like a
year or so before Hotel Hussy,which is how you can find her on
Instagram, by the way.
Completely recommend followingher, even if you're not
interested in that aspect of theindustry, just incredible travel
(11:56):
tips, if absolutely nothingelse, she is just a force to be
reckoned with.
And and yeah, and, and so yeah,that, that, somebody who I kind
of became aware of and then metnearly a decade ago now that you
introduced me to, but I think Iremember that you were together
on the fellowship.
Yeah, how interesting.
Well, I think if nothing else,it, even if you didn't stay
(12:16):
within the WPP.
PP business long term, itcertainly taught you something
in terms of what you are lookingfor, and what, you know, how to
be true to yourself.
It sounds like it gave you ataster of everything that it was
to be in that role, and thenallowed you to make your own
decision about it, rather than,you know, I think many people
within agency will probablyflail around in one role and
(12:38):
have a vague idea of wherethey're going.
At least you'd seen everythingand knew all the different
facets of it.
And one of the things that wetalked about beforehand was, you
know, This kind of idea of, yes,this isn't done at WPP anymore
in terms of that exactfellowship.
There are other agencies doingit.
Many of them are much largerscale, but we talked about the
(12:58):
possibilities of that at asmaller scale.
It's a smaller agency.
Is there anything you could sayfrom your experience that you
could talk to kind of small tomedium sized agency leaders
about how they can develop amore rounded individual for
their own company's benefit?
Yeah, I mean, I think justhaving that sort of
multidisciplinary mindset as youthink about Cultivating your
(13:26):
talent as you think aboutrecruiting your talent, it's
very easy, I think, to say,okay, right, we've got a
corporate ID job, we need tobring in a new account director,
let's make sure that our newaccount director has done a lot
of corporate ID jobs before, andit can become a very sort of box
ticking exercise, and I thinkthat can help.
Skills are important to makesure it's very important to make
(13:49):
sure your skill set is rocksolid when you're when you're
put into a new situation in anew project.
But by the same token, there's,you know, there's a lot of folks
who've had experience in maybeslightly different contexts who
can still bring those skills tothe table.
And in turn, expand the minds orthe perspectives of other folks
(14:11):
on the team who maybe haven'tworked in a PR role, for
example, or, you know, if you'vegot folks who are bringing in
more of a tech forward digitalside of things.
I mean, I remember that wassomething that 10 years ago, and
I, I, I'm very convinced this isno longer the case, but pure
play design agencies 10 yearsago, really did not have any
(14:34):
digital know how there was nothere was very, it was a sort of
a blinkered perspective of, youknow, we're here to do design.
We do design that's corporate IDsystems or packaging maybe
environmental design.
And we are not.
equipped to think about the waythat this brand comes to life in
(14:57):
the digital world, now obviouslythat would no longer be
acceptable because everything'sthe digital world now and I know
that design agencies have, haveevolved in, in many ways to be
able to, to compete at thatlevel, but there's always going
to be that next frontier andjust making sure that you're not
keeping yourself too narrow forthe purpose.
You know, maintaining yourniche, niche, you know,
(15:19):
expertise, deep expertise isgood and important, but not to
the exclusion of the opportunityto stretch and grow and learn
and bring in talent that maybecan help diversify.
Your agency in a meaningful way.
And as you were talking, I was
thinking, how do you, cause ifyou went down every single
rabbit warren of exciting thing,you could end up with a company
(15:41):
that's so diverse, right?
In terms of your understandingof where trends might go and
what clients might be asking forin a decade's time to the point
that you are no longerprofitable because you're
chasing too many rabbits.
How are there any kind of skillsets you'd recommend about how
to kind of identify?
Things that might become moreimportant.
(16:03):
So, something between beingblinkered and staying on your
route and being like a magpieand jumping around everywhere.
Is there, is there somethinglike, because it's probably not
even like the word digital.
It might be a different clue ortip that kind of helps you to
understand that consumerbehavior or brand behavior might
(16:25):
be moving in that direction.
Sorry, I put you on the spot.
I was just
Oh, I mean, I think, I thinkit's, it's a valid question.
And it is sort of honestly funnynow to think that we used to
talk about digital agencies.
I mean, that's, that was areally big giveaway a few years
ago, right?
Anyone who's still talking aboutthemselves as a digital creative
director has lost the plotbecause everything is digital
(16:45):
now.
But this just shows you how oldwe are that we remember when
that was still a thing.
I mean, I think I would turn itback to the client always.
Right.
So what is the, what is yourclient need?
Right.
There's no, there are certainlyno reason to.
Spin up a new capability forwhich there is no demand.
So I think there's the safestway to extend is probably born
(17:08):
of a really strong clientrelationship and a client who is
openly talking to you about whatthey need and maybe what they're
struggling to find.
And being able to sort ofprototype up an offering around
the needs of a specific clientis probably the most fail safe
way to do it from a businessperspective, right?
You don't want to.
Necessarily spin your wheels andspend time and money, you know,
(17:33):
developing a thing that'stheoretical, right?
Yeah.
You wanna figure out a way for aclient to pay you to spend your
time and energy spinning up athing.
And you're probably only gonnaget that from a client who
really knows you and trusts youand thinks they've been on this
journey with me.
They've helped define my brand.
They've helped me extend it intoall these different ways.
(17:54):
But actually I'm having thisreal trouble over here with
maybe our thought leadership ourexecutive thought leadership,
which is an area that generallytends to be run by, you know,
comms agencies, right?
But if you are the agency that,for example, developed the brand
voice and has been central in.
Developing the arc of the brandnarrative, it feels like it
could be a natural extension ifyou have the relationship with
(18:17):
the client to get them to trustyou to give it a go and say,
listen, we'd like to work withyou and try to you know, build
up more of an editorialoffering.
Can we partner on that and giveit a try for six months and see
how it goes?
If that feels like a really safeway to try that.
As opposed to a and now we arelaunching our new editorial
studio that has its own websitelike do the work first get paid
(18:39):
for the work and then take it tomarket I think is probably just
a smart business bit of advice.
Yeah, absolutely.
And then you have the, not justthe The, it paid for without the
risk, but you also then have thetestimonial, you have the case
study, you have the results tobe able to go find more of the
same kind of people.
As you're talking like a bigtheme for me, we've chatted
(18:59):
about before is, is listening.
It's just list, being an activelistener and it's unbelievable
how infrequently it happens.
I still, I'm like trying to getto the bottom of why this is
such a trend within thisindustry.
I think it's kind of comes downto.
Being protective of our ownslice of the, the marketing pie,
(19:20):
so to speak, when it comes tothe budget that's available to a
client and, you know, reallykind of like, I'll bring in and
say, no, this is the mostimportant thing.
This is where you should befocusing instead of listening to
what the client saying aboutwhat the balance is.
And, and, if you've got thatstrong trust with your client,
not just floating the idea of,you know, offering a new
service.
to them and them being the betatest, but also speaking to them
(19:43):
about what else are theirchallenges, what else are they
facing, what, what do theystruggle with, what do they,
what are their hopes and dreams,and knowing full well that 90
percent of the answer is neversomething you're going to be
able to offer them, but thenknowing that you're absorbing
information.
About the actual client that youcan then put into use in your
marketing I feel like whenpeople listen, when we listen
(20:06):
actively and then repeat itback, the, the feedback that I
hear most often, as I saidbefore, here is people coming
back and saying, it's like,you're psychic.
I'm like, well, no, I'm not.
I just, you told me this and I'mjust repeating it back to you in
a different format and givingour thoughts on it.
Yeah.
So I think we're all capable ofdoing that.
Even if we're not about to startout a new branch of our business
(20:29):
you know, we can use it to ouradvantage.
Completely.
And I think the, that'ssomething that's a skill that
can be modeled from the top, butthen I think there's also a
really important job to empoweryour, you know, your mid level
account folks and your designleaders.
(20:51):
Exercise of listening is notjust something that happens, you
know, CEO to CMO, right?
Agency CEO to client CMO, there,there, there better be some good
listening happening there orthis account is not long for
this world.
But that idea of helping folkswithin listening.
(21:13):
The teams on both sides findtheir counterparts, develop
those relationships and empowermore people on the agency side
to feel a sense of ownership andaccountability for the work.
I think I've been really struckby My own sort of perspective
(21:34):
and enjoyment and frankly, Ithink the quality of my work has
gone up since I've been out onmy own because there's nothing
else around me to buffer or propme up, right?
It's on me.
I have to do all the things andI have to do all of the things
very well.
Otherwise, I don't have abusiness.
Right.
And it can feel, you know, atworst, agencies can feel very
(22:00):
disempowering.
You can feel like you're a cogin a very small cog in a very
big machine and you arereplaceable and nothing really
rests on your shoulders.
And I think empowering people onthe agency side to feel a
greater sense of ownership thatthey're running this, you know,
process or machine or, you know,driving this car, pick a
(22:22):
metaphor so that they have thatsense of it's on me to make sure
I'm doing everything to solvethis client's business problem I
think That's, that's the bestpossible outcome is for, is for
everyone to feel a really strongsense of accountability, not
just for, you know, deliveringthe files by the time we said we
deliver the files, which is, youknow, table stakes.
(22:43):
But also like, what do Iactually think this client
needs?
If I, you know, if someone justcame up to me on the street and
said, what do you actually thinkthey need?
Not, you know, what did yourboss tell you you needed to do
for them?
Everything would get a lotbetter.
And, and I think clients wouldget a lot more value.
As you're talking, I'm thinking a
lot of it is about empoweringthe more junior people to have
more exposure to clients becausethe more senior people are going
(23:06):
to be so caught up.
I mean, like you said, they doneed to be good listeners,
otherwise there are biggerissues, but they're so caught up
in the bigger logistics and thelonger term stuff.
Smaller people within the agencyor the, you know, the earlier
stage who are going to spotcertain things, who are going
to, they're going to see thedetail if they're given the
opportunity to have exposure tothose clients.
(23:27):
And that might be, that is thelistening, so to speak.
And, and not just having theopportunity to.
To listen, but also to be heardwhen they repeat it back,
because that I've seen in manyagencies, there've been a lot of
sheltering and protecting of themore junior people within a
business.
I don't think it benefits, likeI, I can see the reasons for it,
(23:50):
but I think in terms oflistening in, I don't think it
benefits either the client orthe agency I'd say use those
people.
But anyhow, I'm, I'm at risk ofgoing off on
one.
So
I also raise an interestingpoint.
I mean, One of the things I'mjust thinking about as you're
saying that is sort ofnavigating, obviously return to
work and return to office ratheris, is a big topic of
(24:10):
conversation in the industryright now.
And I run the sort of thecomfort of my, of my basement
spare room, which is my office.
And I'm a, an agency of one.
And so this doesn't really applyto me, but I'm so grateful that
I came up through my twenties inagencies.
before the pandemic, because Iwas living and breathing and
(24:31):
absorbing so much by osmosis.
And the mentorship and the justexposure that we got in person
was so valuable.
And I really feel for the 20somethings who are working in
agencies now who are doingeverything through zoom, who
don't get to sort of Watch theirboss take a really tricky phone
(24:52):
call.
I mean, again, I don't know.
I'm just feeling very dated.
But, you know, I just I used tosit.
I have vivid memories of sittingas a senior account manager at
Landor in London and sittingnext to my boss, who was an
account director and having herget a phone call on the landline
of her desk and answering it andhaving to You know, tap dance
(25:13):
and really manage a tricky phonecall and do it in real time.
And she wasn't prepared, but shewas gracious.
And I saw how she didn't promiseanything, but also listened
really well and repeated backwhat she heard.
And she said, let me get back toyou in 90 minutes once I've
regrouped with the team.
So she managed expectations andshe was very clear and she set
(25:34):
boundaries and just got it.
Those things just washed over meon a daily basis, right?
And I don't know that you can dothat in a fully remote world.
That said, what you were talkingabout in terms of giving people
more, you know, opportunity at ajunior level to listen in on
calls, it's probably a littlebit easier to have folks listen
in on calls via Zoom than tomarch into the client's office
(25:55):
with 17 folks, you know, who'vejust taken the train up from
London somewhere.
I mean, that's, That's alsoinappropriate.
So I, you know, now I'm arguingwith myself about what, you
know, which provides a greateropportunity for learning and
exposure.
I think the answer is probablysomewhere in the middle, as is
always the case.
But, but that that's, you know,if we can use, if we can use
remote work for good in thatkind of a situation where
(26:18):
you're.
Upfront with the clients andjust say, listen, we're, we're
trying to upskill our team.
We're going to have some folkssitting on mute, observing this
call so that we can use it as ateaching moment, obviously get
the client's approval on thatahead of time.
But anyone who's come up througha corporate structure respects
the need for learning momentsand this should be one of them.
(26:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Wow.
So we talked.
a lot about how the fellowshipgave you different opportunities
within agency.
And, you know, over the past fewyears, my experience interacting
with Cider brand through yourmarketing and what I've heard
from a mutual friend, Holly, andthe kind of projects that you've
(26:59):
been working on, You're reallykind of mixing it up in terms of
like the roles that you'retaking on, and you've had some
recent news about anotherpotential client side, well, an
actual client side role.
Can you talk to me a bit aboutthe, the kind of ballet dance
between the the different sidesof like the agency client divide
and being somewhere in themiddle?
(27:20):
Yeah, totally.
So what you just referenced,I'll work sort of most recent
backwards.
I am going to be starting a fourmonth contract through Cider, my
consultancy, working actually onthe client side.
So I'm going to spend fourmonths in a maternity cover role
at a tech company in integratedmarketing.
And I've never worked clientside.
(27:40):
I'm an agency person through andthrough.
So I'm excited about it.
I think it's going to be areally great opportunity to test
drive and sort of.
try on for size what it is to beon the client side of things.
I'm really lucky I am bothfriends and professional
contacts with the woman who'sgoing to be managing me in that
(28:01):
capacity.
So it feels like a really safe,Place to try this out.
And I also I'm really excitedabout bringing all the things
I've learned in my years ofexperience to this kind of a
role within a within a techcompany that's at a really
exciting inflection point.
So I'm excited about that.
I think what you were mentioningwas that I through Cider I have
(28:24):
dabbled on both sides of thesort of freelance and
consultancy landscape.
So there are times when Ciderplugs into an existing agency to
supplement their strategicleadership or to stand in as a
strategic leader where they havenone.
And then there's many timeswhere I'm engaging directly with
clients and pulling together myown team of designers, web
(28:45):
developers, copywriters, etc.
to service their needs asappropriate.
And I'm, I really don't.
make too much of a fuss aboutwhich side of that equation I
sit on.
I think the benefit to me ofbeing open to doing both has
both, you know, increased thenumber of opportunities that I
have, right?
If I say I'm only going to dofreelance work, that means that
(29:07):
I'm not geared up to workdirectly with clients as those
opportunities come in.
And likewise, if I'm onlylooking to do everything under
the banner of Cider, then itcloses myself off to
opportunities where I can just.
Slot in as a freelance strategyleader so trying to open up the
landscape as much as possible.
And I think it also gives me thechance to work with a greater
variety of clients.
I often have been working withlarger clients under someone
(29:30):
else's banner, and that's fine.
I have loads of experience withbig clients.
for my big agency days.
And it's nice to be able to flexthat muscle.
And similarly, it's fun to workwith scrappy startups who have
very limited budgets.
But frankly, if all I did waswork on scrappy startups, I
wouldn't be able to pay themortgage.
So it's a balancing act.
Parenting will teach you nothingif not.
The fact that life is abalancing act, so I'm trying to
(29:52):
just sort of bring that opennessand flexibility to the way that
I run my business, so as not tocut off any opportunities before
they get started.
There's something I don't think I can
quite articulate, but I think Iwas trying to say about how when
I was first observing you whenwe first met.
Cause when we were together, wasthis kind of, had the sense
(30:13):
that, and I can't remember if Isaid this at this point during
the recording, but had the sensethat the, the brand was at the
center of what you did.
This kind of like, it wasn'tabout the agency.
It wasn't even about the client.
It was the sense ofresponsibility to the actual
the, the actual brand.
This.
inanimate being that theconsumer has a relationship with
(30:37):
and just as an observation andjust like kind of looking at it
from the outside I think it'seasy to kind of, how to say
this, like I think if you, weare, we like to put labels on
ourselves in terms of likeunderstanding where we fit into
the world and I think there'ssomething shape shifting and
(30:59):
perhaps harder to manageinternally but super admirable
about being able to move betweenthe different size and the of
projects and the scale andbudget and demands and not to
mention work and home life, butthere's something that feels
like.
It's all, it's all about thebrand itself for you.
(31:19):
You know, when you said thatbrand was your passion, you
discovered that during thatfellowship.
Yeah, that's how it manifests tome when I, when I think about
the work that you do.
There wasn't a point there oreven a question, but I, I find
that really
interesting.
I really like, I really believethis stuff, like I, I don't,
like I, I actually think thereis value in the work that we do,
(31:40):
that it makes people feel betterto work at a company that has
values that have been aligned tothe business opportunity, like I
think that's just, there's asense of craft to it I think the
other reason, one of the otherreasons I really love, um,
branding and, and design withinbranding is, is the sense of
craft My dad is a reallybeautiful writer and a
successful journalist and myfamily has worked in fashion
(32:03):
retail and in a very high endway and, and I, that sense of
craft of, okay, there, here's ablazer, this blazer has been
hand stitched by craftspeople inItaly and this is what that
means and this is what we knowabout the time and the effort
and the materials and I thinkdesigners in our world are
(32:28):
oftentimes the truest expressionof that dedication to craft.
And I like that.
I like working with craftspeopleand I think the work that we do
is a craft and I like topractice that craft.
And I think that relates to whatyou're saying, that, that I, I
really believe it.
I don't, I don't think it's BS.
(32:49):
I think, I think there'ssomething magical and Textured
and nuanced and beautiful aboutdefining the emotional story at
the heart of this commercialendeavor.
I truly believe it isdifferentiating and beautiful
and meaningful and people'slives.
And I believe, I think, as thephilosophy I have about brand, I
(33:13):
guess, comes back to this ideathat brand is as much an
internal tool as an externaltool.
I don't think it's a marketingtool.
layer that gets added on.
I think it is foundational andcentral to, to the entity of
this business.
And so I really believe that.
And so as a result, like I canget pretty excited about just
about any brand becauselogistics, you know, I've spent
(33:35):
a weird large amount of my.
career thinking about logistics,which is strange, but also
fascinating.
But I've never been someone whogets really bent out of shape
about like, Ooh, I want to workon this sexy brand or that sexy
brand.
Like I get really interestedabout just like the challenge
and the business and the, the,the not that needs to be
unpicked at the center of itall.
Which I think comes back tocraft.
I have this ability to get super
(33:57):
excited about clients,businesses, and they come off
the calls and they're like.
I don't feel that.
I, I have never felt thatexcited about my business.
Like, how did you manage tolike, get this out of nowhere?
I'm like, I don't know.
I just have this energy that Ineed to like, I can see it and I
want to channel it and I want toget excited about it.
That's the role of a consultant,right?
Like that's the other thing thatI'm really interested to test in
(34:17):
this upcoming.
onto the client side is I knowthat I'm a good consultant,
right?
Being a good consultant meansthat you are able to come in
very quickly, assess andevaluate and make sense of a
situation and bring outsideperspective, but also outside
energy, which I think issomething that both you and I
(34:37):
have in spades.
And I know I'm a good consultantand I can come in and I can do
that and then I get out which I,I do love because I have a short
attention span sometimes and soit can be really fun to then
move on to the next thing, butI'm excited to give it a try.
Not that it's going to be such along time that I'm in house, but
it's a different, it's adifferent role and I'm really
conscious of that.
So I'm, I'm looking forward togiving it a go.
(34:58):
As you were talking I was thinking when
it comes to design and thecraftsmanship and the
artisanship and brand ingeneral, a friend of mine who's
an interior designer said to methe other day, she reminded me,
I've obviously heard it before,you don't notice good design.
You only notice bad design.
And, and I think a lot of thevery best work in this industry
goes unnoticed because it'sgood.
(35:20):
And and that's why I, I just, I,I feel very.
excited to speak to peoplewho've had a long term passion
for something that can, ispretty intangible and can be
fairly invisible sometimes.
Anyhow, in the summer we spokeabout How 2024 played out and
I'm just curious to see how, youknow, hear your reflections on
(35:42):
the past year and what trendsyou noticed in terms of both
creative and also just marketingmore generally and how clients
were behaving around that andhow it compared to previous
years.
Sure.
I mean, for my business, I had areally strong first half of the
year, then a sort of weak Q3,and then it started to pick up
(36:02):
again in Q4, but I also have alot of peers who had a really
rough start to the year.
So, I don't know that myexperience necessarily reflects
the broader industry.
I also know that there were alot of layoffs and there was
this really fractious politicalenvironment here in the States.
There were these existentialquestions about what's going on
(36:25):
in our world.
And is there going to be arecession?
Is it not?
It's okay.
It's not a recession, but peopleare still feeling that prices
are high and companies arecutting back.
And so I think there was just alot of grasping around.
Nothing's felt like it's been onsolid footing or that you could
make longer term plans becausethings felt so up in the air.
(36:46):
And that's just anecdotal andpersonal, but I'd say that was
sort of what I observed.
And, you know, I can talk tillI'm blue in the face about.
Well, you should, you know, youshould always be focused on
buttressing your brand becausethat's what stays steady when
everything else is swirling.
But if budgets aren't there,budgets aren't there.
(37:09):
And so that's the, that's thetough reality of being in a
service business.
Charlotte Ellis Malda (37:13):
Certainly I saw, the words you're using to
describe it, the grasping andthe kind of uncertainty and.
Unstable ground they're, they'redefinitely words that I would
use to describe my experienceinteracting with potential
clients last year, and it'sinteresting when you say it, I,
I should have clocked it sooner,but the clients in the US were
(37:35):
the ones who were talking aboutit first, so I, I feel like it's
kind of, there is this kind ofmovement, not across, but it
definitely, it was a thing theresooner but most of them have
reported things picking uptowards the back end of last
year, so I'm really hoping Youknow, for better or worse, what
happened yesterday means atleast we are in a position where
the next four years is, issomewhat determined now in terms
(37:57):
of like what's going to behappening.
It's not an election yearanymore, right?
So that's a thing.
I think that's right.
I think for all the inevitableunpredictability of what's to
come with this administrationThere is a sense of, okay, here
we go.
Like there we can see the roadin front of us and we just got
to figure out what we want to doon that road.
(38:17):
I mean, I think there's a,there's a, a white paper
percolating inside of me aroundthe role of, of brand purpose in
a second Trump presidency whereDEI initiatives are being.
Slashed and values and norms arebeing flouted on a, on a regular
(38:39):
basis.
I think there is an opportunityfor, for leadership to come from
places that maybe we haven'tlooked for leadership before,
which feels strange to say thatthat's, that's the job for
brands.
But I think as a society,certainly as an American
society, we need that leadershipto come from somewhere.
And so.
I think there's a hugeopportunity and there's some
brands that have been doing somephenomenal leadership work in
(39:02):
the States.
I'm thinking of, for example, a,a formula brand called Bobbie
that has, has really taken onadvocacy roles in people's lives
in addition to sending them tubsof formula to feed their kids.
So I think it's going to bereally, I think there's a huge
opportunity there for brands to,to stand up.
for something.
And that's always my, my hope isthat brands make use of that
(39:27):
ability that they have to reallygalvanize people, to inspire
people, to put their money wheretheir mouth is on issues that
matter to them.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (39:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think I saw that brand do alot of work during the recent
wildfires in terms of givingaccessibility to formula milk.
I mean, for me, brand.
is how we choose brands to alignwith our values.
We choose them based on who wethink we are and how we want to
show up in the world.
And I think, I mean it really isa huge opportunity.
(39:57):
If we are, if we can't trust inour leadership of a country to
stand for what we represent,then we will look to other
people.
And I, yeah, I agree.
I think you should let thatwhite paper percolate, Laura.
I can't wait to read it.
I also have a picture of astovetop coffee maker just like
bubbling away.
I just wanted to ask if you hadany advice to future leaders and
(40:19):
what do you think the nextgeneration of agency and client
leaders need to focus on tosucceed in a rapidly changing
industry world?
And maybe you've just said it,or maybe you have something else
to add.
I think the only other thing I'dadd, I, I.
I only very recently realizedthe strategic power of my
(40:39):
network, and that seems verysilly.
I have a very strong network,facilitated hugely by the WPP
fellowship and my time workingacross a lot of agencies,
because you meet lots of peoplewhen you work lots of agencies.
But I just always thought ofthese people as my friends, and
oh, it's so and so, and we getdrinks, or we get coffee, or we
meet for lunch when I'm in town,or what have you, and that's
(41:00):
great, and true, and it also isa strategic asset, and I think
as we see more and more talentin our industry going
independent, as a leader of anagency, just to bring it back to
the conversation we had earlier,As you think about extending
your capabilities, winning newtypes of clients, mentoring your
(41:22):
junior folks in new ways tobuild their skill sets, having a
network that you're managingstrategically in order to tap
into independent talent andbring them in to supplement the
core of your business, I thinkis going to be really central.
I think the days of big agenciesrunning the show with full time
employees.
(41:42):
I think the, the landscape hasshifted really to the point
where that's not going to everhappen again.
So managing your networkstrategically and bringing in
talent for a lot of differentstrategic purposes, I think is
going to be central for futureagency leaders.
It also feels like one of the benefits
of getting older, your networkis becoming more powerful and
influential in terms of beingdecision makers.
(42:03):
Right.
So there's going to be someperks of getting older.
That feels like one of them.
A hundred percent.
And I'm very excited for myforties.
Let's just put that out there.
I think the forties are going tobe great.
I think that.
Yeah.
And you've seen it before, youknow, that the world doesn't
end.
Right.
I mean, there's just, there'smaturity and perspective that
comes with having done thisbefore the world will not end.
You will not get fired.
(42:24):
Anything can be sorted.
It's just, you know, these,these, these moments, these, you
know, you, you put a foot wrongin a meeting or you drop a ball
for a client and you think theworld is going to end.
And in reality, you're 25.
The world will not end.
The sun will come up tomorrow.
You will have a job.
I mean, maybe you'll get fired,but if you get fired, you'll get
another job.
(42:45):
It's going to be fine.
And I think having that, thatperspective and that longevity
is, is really valuable.
So yes, I fully agree.
You
have given me the warm fuzzies
now.
Everything's going to be okay.
Laura said so.
Well, thank you so much forjoining us, Laura, and I know
you've shared a couple of linksand I will put those in the show
notes.
So anybody who wants to connectwith you can do.
Is there anybody who shouldspecifically get in contact with
(43:06):
you?
Sure.
Always keen to chat withambitious brand leaders, and I
say ambitious, not as athrowaway line, but I really
don't like just fiddling aroundthe edges of things.
I like to ask tough questionsand grapple with potentially
messy situations that need to beresolved and I think you can
(43:30):
probably tell from thisconversation, I don't pull
punches.
I'm very candid, but I'm alsovery optimistic and love getting
my hands dirty.
So anyone who is feeling reallystuck on a thorny problem that
has brand at the center of it Ialways love to have a chat.
And yeah, just to, to sign off with,
I think is the strap line ofyour company.
(43:51):
So it's cider and is it strong,sharp, and sweet?
Just like the real thing.
Like the real thing.
I love it.
I
Laura Pearlstein Mil (43:59):
absolutely love it.
Just, yeah.
I mean, obviously then I'mtalking about British cider
because American cider doesn'thave any booze in it.
So doesn't it?
Oh gosh.
You've just saved
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (44:08):
me ordering that on on a future
holiday.
Thank you.
Laura Pearlstein Mills (44:11):
Yeah, no.
Ours is, I mean, your kids willlike it, but British cider.
I spent enough time in the UK toto have developed a taste for
the real thing.
So amazing.
Well, thank you for joining us,Laura.
Speak soon.
My pleasure.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (44:23):
Thank you.
Bye.
Welcome to the Kaffeen Espresso podcast
(00:02):
today, and I am so excited tosay I have got an old colleague
of mine and a self describedtrue left and right brain
thinker, which I can completelytestify to.
Laura has over 15 years ofinternational and
interdisciplinary brandstrategy, marketing,
communications experience, andshe believes passionately in the
(00:22):
power of purpose and creativityto spark behavior change,
business results, and employeeengagement.
Having worked across industriesas varied as packaged goods,
luxury fashion, logistics, andtech, Laura brings rigorous
thinking and compellingnarratives to her clients
brands, whether they're bluechip behemoths or scrappy
(00:42):
startups.
She began her career on theprestigious WPP fellowship,
which we're going to touch onduring this conversation and has
worked in New York and Londonfor global creative agencies,
including Ogilvy, Landor andBrand Opus, which is where we
work together.
Laura graduated from Dartmouthcollege with a degree in
history, and she lives inWashington, DC with her husband
(01:03):
and two children.
So I'd like to welcome LauraMills to the podcast today.
Hi, Laura.
I am so happy to be here andglad to see you.
Me too.
So this conversation originallystarted because you were in
London last summer and we had acatch up at the Grind on London
(01:24):
Bridge, I think, and Scorchioday, I think I had an iced
coffee and was very sweaty andprobably not completely with it,
but it was super good to catchup with you because I feel like
despite the odd email here andthere and maybe a comment on
social media, we haven't had aproper conversation since we
worked together.
And it was just really amazingto touch base with somebody who
(01:46):
Has worked in a similar kind ofbackground also has two kids, is
balancing the life, the work,the everything, albeit on a
different continent So, we, wechatted through how 2024 played
out thus far for both of us andwe thought it'd be really good
to catch up.
Later in autumn, although nowit's January when we're
recording this.
(02:07):
Which, you know, just goes toshow you the balance between
work and home.
But really good to kind of catchup on and extend the topics we
talked about then.
So yeah, how've
you been?
I've been well, I've been well.
We are having an arctic blasthere, so it's a sharp contrast
to the the heat wave that weexperienced in London together
last summer, but no, all is wellmy kids are back in school after
(02:28):
a four day weekend, so you know,always a great day for working
parents when your kids finallygo back to school.
No, it was MLK Day yesterday,right?
MLK Day, and the inauguration,which
we just won't talk about.
The less said the better.
Yeah, it was just MLK Day.
Okay.
Day.
Yeah, let's focus on
him.
Let's focus on
him.
So you've had some exciting newsin the last week, which
(02:49):
hopefully we're gonna touch onhere as well.
But I feel like that actuallyreinforces some of the topics
we're going to talk about here.
we touched on the WPP fellowshipback in that intro.
And I just want to ask you a bitmore on that.
You talked a lot about thefellowship when we've chatted
before, emphasizing exposure todifferent areas of the industry
(03:13):
and within agency, how has thatshaped your view of creative
businesses and.
in kind of maybe a pottedhistory of how you got to this
point and how that kind of droveyou on your career path.
Totally.
So for me, the WPP fellowship,which sadly is not around in its
at least not in its former form.
It, it was central to both mysort of.
(03:36):
Entree into this industry and mynetwork within this industry
and, and really the, the waythat I view this industry.
So it was a brilliant three yearrotational scheme that Sir
Martin Sorrell started back ataround in the late nineties, I
believe.
And I, I graduated fromuniversity in 2007 and was
really lucky to get onto thescheme straight out of school or
university, I suppose, for your,for your British audience.
(03:58):
And the premise of thefellowship was really to sort of
train up the next generation ofagency leaders for WPP.
And really central to that, atleast in Martin's view, was
exposure to different markets.
So the idea was that you wouldspend three different years in
three different cities or evenon three different continents.
(04:19):
I only made it to two because Igot stuck in London and fell in
love with both the city and mynow husband.
And and also to spend threedifferent years across different
areas of the sort of marketingcommunications world, creative
services world.
And so I spent time in atraditional advertising agency
in Ogilvy, New York at Landor inLondon branding.
(04:39):
And then I finished up my, myfellowship working at a now
defunct digital shop calledDigit and then ended up doing a
few months as well at ColeyPorter Bell.
So sort of doubling down onbranding, which is really where
a lot of my, of my passion sits.
And I think that sense of havingthis.
interdisciplinary lens throughwhich you view the industry and
(05:04):
the experience of working indifferent, even frankly,
business structures, right?
The difference between aretained relationship with a,
with a client at at Ogilvy isvery different to the project
based work we tend to do inbranding.
And, you know, learning to usetools like Google analytics,
which Sadly is kind of as far asI got in terms of digital tools,
(05:26):
but I was addicted.
Remember it was 2009.
So I think Instagram launchedwhile I was there.
So that tells you, I mean, therewas there was no Twitter.
And certainly no Snapchat, noTikTok all the things.
So it was a very differentlandscape when I was sort of
dabbling in a digital first ordigital only agency.
Anyway, all this to say, I yeah.
I've just always had thatbreadth of perspective really
(05:49):
central to how I think aboutwhat my career could be.
And then potentially also alittle bit of a little bit of
maybe more confidence than wasdeserved, but so the sense that
I could do anything, that I wasnot constrained merely by sort
of the type of agency I was inat the moment, but rather that I
had the skills and the potentialto flex across different areas
of the creative services world.
(06:10):
When you came to Brandopus, I
remember just being in awe atyour, your, so I, I think
there's like a sometimes inagency world, the client is put
so high on a pedestal that we'rescared to say anything, scared
to do anything.
And I remember when you came in,you were just like, no, this is
the way it is.
This is an objective view ofthings.
(06:32):
And I was just like, Who is thisperson and how is she younger
than me and how does she, like,how can she objectively see all
of this stuff?
And I mean, I mean this in thenicest possible sense, you know,
the, I, I feel like I looked onfrom afar and learned a lot from
the way you approach projects,even though I wasn't a project
(06:52):
based person.
I think, you know, what, whenyou're talking through that,
what I saw was somebody who I'veseen lots of different facets of
their clients businesses andworked in them in different
ways, with them in differentways at different agency types.
And so had a betterunderstanding of, intuitive
(07:13):
understanding, roundedunderstanding of what that
client needed.
Instead of just like whackingthem over the head with, you
need a redesign, you need a newwebsite, you know, the same
thing again and again.
Regardless of who the clientwas, it felt like from what I
could see, it felt like atailored approach based on the
true challenge that the clientfaced rather than what suited
(07:34):
the agency.
Would you say that's fair?
I mean, thank you.
That's very kind.
I think that's true.
And I think another aspect of myown story that I haven't
mentioned yet is the fact thatI've worked, you know, the, the,
the first few years of my careerwere spent in a.
Pure strategy role.
And then I actually had aninteresting opportunity to get
into agency operations.
I was the chief of staff forLandor's Global CEO.
(07:55):
Wow, I didn't know that.
In a similar capacity for ourhead of key client
relationships.
And so I got to see under thehood of sort of the business of
the agency in a way that wasincredibly valuable.
And you know, really, that was areal sort of once in a lifetime
chance.
I mean, it's very hard to get aperspective like that when
(08:17):
you're in your mid twenties.
And then from there I actually,because I was convinced that I
too was going to be a CEO Ishifted into more of an account
management and accountleadership role.
And so I had all these differentperspectives that I think, you
know, have ultimately beenincredibly valuable for me.
And so by the time I, I came toBrand Opus, I had been up a
(08:37):
strategist and had been anaccount lead.
And so you can't unlearn way ofthinking about things as a
strategist, right?
You, you sort of learn to gothrough the world in a certain
way and think about things in acertain way, and you can't turn
that off even you're.
new business cards as accountdirector.
So yes, of course, you'reresponsible for running a
(08:57):
profitable relationship with theclient and managing resources
internally and, you know,rallying the troops and getting
the creatives on board andexcited.
But you're still thinking reallycritically about, about the, the
client and their business.
And so learning to sort ofjuggle all of those things has
been really central, I think, tothe success that I've had.
And what do you say?
(09:18):
I'm really curious, like, causethe, the, the fellowship sounds
like it was.
It was, you know, you saidyourself it was to shape future
agency leaders and hopefullythey would remain in the WPP
group, I expect is what he wasanticipating with that program.
So what, at what point did youshift from thinking, yes, I'm
going to be a CEO to somethingdifferent?
Was it life changes or was itlike a real passion for one
(09:39):
particular area of what you do?
I'd say honestly, it was sort oflife changes and a recalibration
of my priorities and mentalhealth and family and you know,
an experience I had of leavingagency world altogether for a
few years to go and work in thefamily business, which is a
story for another day and besttold over wine or coffee.
But I think resetting my ownsense of what success looks like
(10:06):
and what.
level of, of control I waslooking for in my own career is
ultimately what led me to go offon my own.
I will go back and just make apoint that the fellowship was
successful and, but, you know,by many standards, I mean,
certainly personally, many of mybest friends are from the
fellowship and I'm so gratefulfor the mentorship and
everything that I was able toget through that program.
(10:28):
And I ended up boomeranging.
And so, you know, have very deepseated sort of love for the WPP
that I grew up in.
And many, many leaders withinthe firm were folks who
graduated from the, from thefellowship.
So there continue to be a lot ofincredibly senior leaders who
are peers of mine, who now havejob titles that far surpass
anything that I, that I've everhad who have really, you know,
(10:50):
stuck it out and are, you know,are proof positive that that
Perspective and, you know, the,the way that they hired and the
way that they looked for talent,you know, has borne fruit really
for the, for the group.
So you know, the flip side ofthat is that it's several of us,
it turns out we're a bit, a bitornery and maybe chafed a little
bit against the constraints ofthe corporate structure.
And so some of us have gonecompletely wild and and left the
(11:13):
industry altogether.
And we've got folks who areartists and hotel consultants
and doing all sorts of amazingother things, but got their
start on the fellowship, justlike I did.
Katie Katie Brinsmead Stockham.
She's, she was a friend throughthe fellowship as well, wasn't
she?
Yes, absolutely.
Have you interviewed her?
No, I haven't.
Actually you connected us when Iwas in a tech startup and we had
(11:34):
a conversation about hercommunity strategy for the
business, but it was at a timewhere she was really, she was
kind of doubling down onhospitality and it was like a
year or so before Hotel Hussy,which is how you can find her on
Instagram, by the way.
Completely recommend followingher, even if you're not
interested in that aspect of theindustry, just incredible travel
(11:56):
tips, if absolutely nothingelse, she is just a force to be
reckoned with.
And and yeah, and, and so yeah,that, that, somebody who I kind
of became aware of and then metnearly a decade ago now that you
introduced me to, but I think Iremember that you were together
on the fellowship.
Yeah, how interesting.
Well, I think if nothing else,it, even if you didn't stay
(12:16):
within the WPP.
PP business long term, itcertainly taught you something
in terms of what you are lookingfor, and what, you know, how to
be true to yourself.
It sounds like it gave you ataster of everything that it was
to be in that role, and thenallowed you to make your own
decision about it, rather than,you know, I think many people
within agency will probablyflail around in one role and
(12:38):
have a vague idea of wherethey're going.
At least you'd seen everythingand knew all the different
facets of it.
And one of the things that wetalked about beforehand was, you
know, This kind of idea of, yes,this isn't done at WPP anymore
in terms of that exactfellowship.
There are other agencies doingit.
Many of them are much largerscale, but we talked about the
(12:58):
possibilities of that at asmaller scale.
It's a smaller agency.
Is there anything you could sayfrom your experience that you
could talk to kind of small tomedium sized agency leaders
about how they can develop amore rounded individual for
their own company's benefit?
Yeah, I mean, I think justhaving that sort of
multidisciplinary mindset as youthink about Cultivating your
(13:26):
talent as you think aboutrecruiting your talent, it's
very easy, I think, to say,okay, right, we've got a
corporate ID job, we need tobring in a new account director,
let's make sure that our newaccount director has done a lot
of corporate ID jobs before, andit can become a very sort of box
ticking exercise, and I thinkthat can help.
Skills are important to makesure it's very important to make
(13:49):
sure your skill set is rocksolid when you're when you're
put into a new situation in anew project.
But by the same token, there's,you know, there's a lot of folks
who've had experience in maybeslightly different contexts who
can still bring those skills tothe table.
And in turn, expand the minds orthe perspectives of other folks
(14:11):
on the team who maybe haven'tworked in a PR role, for
example, or, you know, if you'vegot folks who are bringing in
more of a tech forward digitalside of things.
I mean, I remember that wassomething that 10 years ago, and
I, I, I'm very convinced this isno longer the case, but pure
play design agencies 10 yearsago, really did not have any
(14:34):
digital know how there was nothere was very, it was a sort of
a blinkered perspective of, youknow, we're here to do design.
We do design that's corporate IDsystems or packaging maybe
environmental design.
And we are not.
equipped to think about the waythat this brand comes to life in
(14:57):
the digital world, now obviouslythat would no longer be
acceptable because everything'sthe digital world now and I know
that design agencies have, haveevolved in, in many ways to be
able to, to compete at thatlevel, but there's always going
to be that next frontier andjust making sure that you're not
keeping yourself too narrow forthe purpose.
You know, maintaining yourniche, niche, you know,
(15:19):
expertise, deep expertise isgood and important, but not to
the exclusion of the opportunityto stretch and grow and learn
and bring in talent that maybecan help diversify.
Your agency in a meaningful way.
And as you were talking, I was
thinking, how do you, cause ifyou went down every single
rabbit warren of exciting thing,you could end up with a company
(15:41):
that's so diverse, right?
In terms of your understandingof where trends might go and
what clients might be asking forin a decade's time to the point
that you are no longerprofitable because you're
chasing too many rabbits.
How are there any kind of skillsets you'd recommend about how
to kind of identify?
Things that might become moreimportant.
(16:03):
So, something between beingblinkered and staying on your
route and being like a magpieand jumping around everywhere.
Is there, is there somethinglike, because it's probably not
even like the word digital.
It might be a different clue ortip that kind of helps you to
understand that consumerbehavior or brand behavior might
(16:25):
be moving in that direction.
Sorry, I put you on the spot.
I was just
Oh, I mean, I think, I thinkit's, it's a valid question.
And it is sort of honestly funnynow to think that we used to
talk about digital agencies.
I mean, that's, that was areally big giveaway a few years
ago, right?
Anyone who's still talking aboutthemselves as a digital creative
director has lost the plotbecause everything is digital
(16:45):
now.
But this just shows you how oldwe are that we remember when
that was still a thing.
I mean, I think I would turn itback to the client always.
Right.
So what is the, what is yourclient need?
Right.
There's no, there are certainlyno reason to.
Spin up a new capability forwhich there is no demand.
So I think there's the safestway to extend is probably born
(17:08):
of a really strong clientrelationship and a client who is
openly talking to you about whatthey need and maybe what they're
struggling to find.
And being able to sort ofprototype up an offering around
the needs of a specific clientis probably the most fail safe
way to do it from a businessperspective, right?
You don't want to.
Necessarily spin your wheels andspend time and money, you know,
(17:33):
developing a thing that'stheoretical, right?
Yeah.
You wanna figure out a way for aclient to pay you to spend your
time and energy spinning up athing.
And you're probably only gonnaget that from a client who
really knows you and trusts youand thinks they've been on this
journey with me.
They've helped define my brand.
They've helped me extend it intoall these different ways.
(17:54):
But actually I'm having thisreal trouble over here with
maybe our thought leadership ourexecutive thought leadership,
which is an area that generallytends to be run by, you know,
comms agencies, right?
But if you are the agency that,for example, developed the brand
voice and has been central in.
Developing the arc of the brandnarrative, it feels like it
could be a natural extension ifyou have the relationship with
(18:17):
the client to get them to trustyou to give it a go and say,
listen, we'd like to work withyou and try to you know, build
up more of an editorialoffering.
Can we partner on that and giveit a try for six months and see
how it goes?
If that feels like a really safeway to try that.
As opposed to a and now we arelaunching our new editorial
studio that has its own websitelike do the work first get paid
(18:39):
for the work and then take it tomarket I think is probably just
a smart business bit of advice.
Yeah, absolutely.
And then you have the, not justthe The, it paid for without the
risk, but you also then have thetestimonial, you have the case
study, you have the results tobe able to go find more of the
same kind of people.
As you're talking like a bigtheme for me, we've chatted
(18:59):
about before is, is listening.
It's just list, being an activelistener and it's unbelievable
how infrequently it happens.
I still, I'm like trying to getto the bottom of why this is
such a trend within thisindustry.
I think it's kind of comes downto.
Being protective of our ownslice of the, the marketing pie,
(19:20):
so to speak, when it comes tothe budget that's available to a
client and, you know, reallykind of like, I'll bring in and
say, no, this is the mostimportant thing.
This is where you should befocusing instead of listening to
what the client saying aboutwhat the balance is.
And, and, if you've got thatstrong trust with your client,
not just floating the idea of,you know, offering a new
service.
to them and them being the betatest, but also speaking to them
(19:43):
about what else are theirchallenges, what else are they
facing, what, what do theystruggle with, what do they,
what are their hopes and dreams,and knowing full well that 90
percent of the answer is neversomething you're going to be
able to offer them, but thenknowing that you're absorbing
information.
About the actual client that youcan then put into use in your
marketing I feel like whenpeople listen, when we listen
(20:06):
actively and then repeat itback, the, the feedback that I
hear most often, as I saidbefore, here is people coming
back and saying, it's like,you're psychic.
I'm like, well, no, I'm not.
I just, you told me this and I'mjust repeating it back to you in
a different format and givingour thoughts on it.
Yeah.
So I think we're all capable ofdoing that.
Even if we're not about to startout a new branch of our business
(20:29):
you know, we can use it to ouradvantage.
Completely.
And I think the, that'ssomething that's a skill that
can be modeled from the top, butthen I think there's also a
really important job to empoweryour, you know, your mid level
account folks and your designleaders.
(20:51):
Exercise of listening is notjust something that happens, you
know, CEO to CMO, right?
Agency CEO to client CMO, there,there, there better be some good
listening happening there orthis account is not long for
this world.
But that idea of helping folkswithin listening.
(21:13):
The teams on both sides findtheir counterparts, develop
those relationships and empowermore people on the agency side
to feel a sense of ownership andaccountability for the work.
I think I've been really struckby My own sort of perspective
(21:34):
and enjoyment and frankly, Ithink the quality of my work has
gone up since I've been out onmy own because there's nothing
else around me to buffer or propme up, right?
It's on me.
I have to do all the things andI have to do all of the things
very well.
Otherwise, I don't have abusiness.
Right.
And it can feel, you know, atworst, agencies can feel very
(22:00):
disempowering.
You can feel like you're a cogin a very small cog in a very
big machine and you arereplaceable and nothing really
rests on your shoulders.
And I think empowering people onthe agency side to feel a
greater sense of ownership thatthey're running this, you know,
process or machine or, you know,driving this car, pick a
(22:22):
metaphor so that they have thatsense of it's on me to make sure
I'm doing everything to solvethis client's business problem I
think That's, that's the bestpossible outcome is for, is for
everyone to feel a really strongsense of accountability, not
just for, you know, deliveringthe files by the time we said we
deliver the files, which is, youknow, table stakes.
(22:43):
But also like, what do Iactually think this client
needs?
If I, you know, if someone justcame up to me on the street and
said, what do you actually thinkthey need?
Not, you know, what did yourboss tell you you needed to do
for them?
Everything would get a lotbetter.
And, and I think clients wouldget a lot more value.
As you're talking, I'm thinking a
lot of it is about empoweringthe more junior people to have
more exposure to clients becausethe more senior people are going
(23:06):
to be so caught up.
I mean, like you said, they doneed to be good listeners,
otherwise there are biggerissues, but they're so caught up
in the bigger logistics and thelonger term stuff.
Smaller people within the agencyor the, you know, the earlier
stage who are going to spotcertain things, who are going
to, they're going to see thedetail if they're given the
opportunity to have exposure tothose clients.
(23:27):
And that might be, that is thelistening, so to speak.
And, and not just having theopportunity to.
To listen, but also to be heardwhen they repeat it back,
because that I've seen in manyagencies, there've been a lot of
sheltering and protecting of themore junior people within a
business.
I don't think it benefits, likeI, I can see the reasons for it,
(23:50):
but I think in terms oflistening in, I don't think it
benefits either the client orthe agency I'd say use those
people.
But anyhow, I'm, I'm at risk ofgoing off on
one.
So
I also raise an interestingpoint.
I mean, One of the things I'mjust thinking about as you're
saying that is sort ofnavigating, obviously return to
work and return to office ratheris, is a big topic of
(24:10):
conversation in the industryright now.
And I run the sort of thecomfort of my, of my basement
spare room, which is my office.
And I'm a, an agency of one.
And so this doesn't really applyto me, but I'm so grateful that
I came up through my twenties inagencies.
before the pandemic, because Iwas living and breathing and
(24:31):
absorbing so much by osmosis.
And the mentorship and the justexposure that we got in person
was so valuable.
And I really feel for the 20somethings who are working in
agencies now who are doingeverything through zoom, who
don't get to sort of Watch theirboss take a really tricky phone
(24:52):
call.
I mean, again, I don't know.
I'm just feeling very dated.
But, you know, I just I used tosit.
I have vivid memories of sittingas a senior account manager at
Landor in London and sittingnext to my boss, who was an
account director and having herget a phone call on the landline
of her desk and answering it andhaving to You know, tap dance
(25:13):
and really manage a tricky phonecall and do it in real time.
And she wasn't prepared, but shewas gracious.
And I saw how she didn't promiseanything, but also listened
really well and repeated backwhat she heard.
And she said, let me get back toyou in 90 minutes once I've
regrouped with the team.
So she managed expectations andshe was very clear and she set
(25:34):
boundaries and just got it.
Those things just washed over meon a daily basis, right?
And I don't know that you can dothat in a fully remote world.
That said, what you were talkingabout in terms of giving people
more, you know, opportunity at ajunior level to listen in on
calls, it's probably a littlebit easier to have folks listen
in on calls via Zoom than tomarch into the client's office
(25:55):
with 17 folks, you know, who'vejust taken the train up from
London somewhere.
I mean, that's, That's alsoinappropriate.
So I, you know, now I'm arguingwith myself about what, you
know, which provides a greateropportunity for learning and
exposure.
I think the answer is probablysomewhere in the middle, as is
always the case.
But, but that that's, you know,if we can use, if we can use
remote work for good in thatkind of a situation where
(26:18):
you're.
Upfront with the clients andjust say, listen, we're, we're
trying to upskill our team.
We're going to have some folkssitting on mute, observing this
call so that we can use it as ateaching moment, obviously get
the client's approval on thatahead of time.
But anyone who's come up througha corporate structure respects
the need for learning momentsand this should be one of them.
(26:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Wow.
So we talked.
a lot about how the fellowshipgave you different opportunities
within agency.
And, you know, over the past fewyears, my experience interacting
with Cider brand through yourmarketing and what I've heard
from a mutual friend, Holly, andthe kind of projects that you've
(26:59):
been working on, You're reallykind of mixing it up in terms of
like the roles that you'retaking on, and you've had some
recent news about anotherpotential client side, well, an
actual client side role.
Can you talk to me a bit aboutthe, the kind of ballet dance
between the the different sidesof like the agency client divide
and being somewhere in themiddle?
(27:20):
Yeah, totally.
So what you just referenced,I'll work sort of most recent
backwards.
I am going to be starting a fourmonth contract through Cider, my
consultancy, working actually onthe client side.
So I'm going to spend fourmonths in a maternity cover role
at a tech company in integratedmarketing.
And I've never worked clientside.
(27:40):
I'm an agency person through andthrough.
So I'm excited about it.
I think it's going to be areally great opportunity to test
drive and sort of.
try on for size what it is to beon the client side of things.
I'm really lucky I am bothfriends and professional
contacts with the woman who'sgoing to be managing me in that
(28:01):
capacity.
So it feels like a really safe,Place to try this out.
And I also I'm really excitedabout bringing all the things
I've learned in my years ofexperience to this kind of a
role within a within a techcompany that's at a really
exciting inflection point.
So I'm excited about that.
I think what you were mentioningwas that I through Cider I have
(28:24):
dabbled on both sides of thesort of freelance and
consultancy landscape.
So there are times when Ciderplugs into an existing agency to
supplement their strategicleadership or to stand in as a
strategic leader where they havenone.
And then there's many timeswhere I'm engaging directly with
clients and pulling together myown team of designers, web
(28:45):
developers, copywriters, etc.
to service their needs asappropriate.
And I'm, I really don't.
make too much of a fuss aboutwhich side of that equation I
sit on.
I think the benefit to me ofbeing open to doing both has
both, you know, increased thenumber of opportunities that I
have, right?
If I say I'm only going to dofreelance work, that means that
(29:07):
I'm not geared up to workdirectly with clients as those
opportunities come in.
And likewise, if I'm onlylooking to do everything under
the banner of Cider, then itcloses myself off to
opportunities where I can just.
Slot in as a freelance strategyleader so trying to open up the
landscape as much as possible.
And I think it also gives me thechance to work with a greater
variety of clients.
I often have been working withlarger clients under someone
(29:30):
else's banner, and that's fine.
I have loads of experience withbig clients.
for my big agency days.
And it's nice to be able to flexthat muscle.
And similarly, it's fun to workwith scrappy startups who have
very limited budgets.
But frankly, if all I did waswork on scrappy startups, I
wouldn't be able to pay themortgage.
So it's a balancing act.
Parenting will teach you nothingif not.
The fact that life is abalancing act, so I'm trying to
(29:52):
just sort of bring that opennessand flexibility to the way that
I run my business, so as not tocut off any opportunities before
they get started.
There's something I don't think I can
quite articulate, but I think Iwas trying to say about how when
I was first observing you whenwe first met.
Cause when we were together, wasthis kind of, had the sense
(30:13):
that, and I can't remember if Isaid this at this point during
the recording, but had the sensethat the, the brand was at the
center of what you did.
This kind of like, it wasn'tabout the agency.
It wasn't even about the client.
It was the sense ofresponsibility to the actual
the, the actual brand.
This.
inanimate being that theconsumer has a relationship with
(30:37):
and just as an observation andjust like kind of looking at it
from the outside I think it'seasy to kind of, how to say
this, like I think if you, weare, we like to put labels on
ourselves in terms of likeunderstanding where we fit into
the world and I think there'ssomething shape shifting and
(30:59):
perhaps harder to manageinternally but super admirable
about being able to move betweenthe different size and the of
projects and the scale andbudget and demands and not to
mention work and home life, butthere's something that feels
like.
It's all, it's all about thebrand itself for you.
(31:19):
You know, when you said thatbrand was your passion, you
discovered that during thatfellowship.
Yeah, that's how it manifests tome when I, when I think about
the work that you do.
There wasn't a point there oreven a question, but I, I find
that really
interesting.
I really like, I really believethis stuff, like I, I don't,
like I, I actually think thereis value in the work that we do,
(31:40):
that it makes people feel betterto work at a company that has
values that have been aligned tothe business opportunity, like I
think that's just, there's asense of craft to it I think the
other reason, one of the otherreasons I really love, um,
branding and, and design withinbranding is, is the sense of
craft My dad is a reallybeautiful writer and a
successful journalist and myfamily has worked in fashion
(32:03):
retail and in a very high endway and, and I, that sense of
craft of, okay, there, here's ablazer, this blazer has been
hand stitched by craftspeople inItaly and this is what that
means and this is what we knowabout the time and the effort
and the materials and I thinkdesigners in our world are
(32:28):
oftentimes the truest expressionof that dedication to craft.
And I like that.
I like working with craftspeopleand I think the work that we do
is a craft and I like topractice that craft.
And I think that relates to whatyou're saying, that, that I, I
really believe it.
I don't, I don't think it's BS.
(32:49):
I think, I think there'ssomething magical and Textured
and nuanced and beautiful aboutdefining the emotional story at
the heart of this commercialendeavor.
I truly believe it isdifferentiating and beautiful
and meaningful and people'slives.
And I believe, I think, as thephilosophy I have about brand, I
(33:13):
guess, comes back to this ideathat brand is as much an
internal tool as an externaltool.
I don't think it's a marketingtool.
layer that gets added on.
I think it is foundational andcentral to, to the entity of
this business.
And so I really believe that.
And so as a result, like I canget pretty excited about just
about any brand becauselogistics, you know, I've spent
(33:35):
a weird large amount of my.
career thinking about logistics,which is strange, but also
fascinating.
But I've never been someone whogets really bent out of shape
about like, Ooh, I want to workon this sexy brand or that sexy
brand.
Like I get really interestedabout just like the challenge
and the business and the, the,the not that needs to be
unpicked at the center of itall.
Which I think comes back tocraft.
I have this ability to get super
(33:57):
excited about clients,businesses, and they come off
the calls and they're like.
I don't feel that.
I, I have never felt thatexcited about my business.
Like, how did you manage tolike, get this out of nowhere?
I'm like, I don't know.
I just have this energy that Ineed to like, I can see it and I
want to channel it and I want toget excited about it.
That's the role of a consultant,right?
Like that's the other thing thatI'm really interested to test in
(34:17):
this upcoming.
onto the client side is I knowthat I'm a good consultant,
right?
Being a good consultant meansthat you are able to come in
very quickly, assess andevaluate and make sense of a
situation and bring outsideperspective, but also outside
energy, which I think issomething that both you and I
(34:37):
have in spades.
And I know I'm a good consultantand I can come in and I can do
that and then I get out which I,I do love because I have a short
attention span sometimes and soit can be really fun to then
move on to the next thing, butI'm excited to give it a try.
Not that it's going to be such along time that I'm in house, but
it's a different, it's adifferent role and I'm really
conscious of that.
So I'm, I'm looking forward togiving it a go.
(34:58):
As you were talking I was thinking when
it comes to design and thecraftsmanship and the
artisanship and brand ingeneral, a friend of mine who's
an interior designer said to methe other day, she reminded me,
I've obviously heard it before,you don't notice good design.
You only notice bad design.
And, and I think a lot of thevery best work in this industry
goes unnoticed because it'sgood.
(35:20):
And and that's why I, I just, I,I feel very.
excited to speak to peoplewho've had a long term passion
for something that can, ispretty intangible and can be
fairly invisible sometimes.
Anyhow, in the summer we spokeabout How 2024 played out and
I'm just curious to see how, youknow, hear your reflections on
(35:42):
the past year and what trendsyou noticed in terms of both
creative and also just marketingmore generally and how clients
were behaving around that andhow it compared to previous
years.
Sure.
I mean, for my business, I had areally strong first half of the
year, then a sort of weak Q3,and then it started to pick up
(36:02):
again in Q4, but I also have alot of peers who had a really
rough start to the year.
So, I don't know that myexperience necessarily reflects
the broader industry.
I also know that there were alot of layoffs and there was
this really fractious politicalenvironment here in the States.
There were these existentialquestions about what's going on
(36:25):
in our world.
And is there going to be arecession?
Is it not?
It's okay.
It's not a recession, but peopleare still feeling that prices
are high and companies arecutting back.
And so I think there was just alot of grasping around.
Nothing's felt like it's been onsolid footing or that you could
make longer term plans becausethings felt so up in the air.
(36:46):
And that's just anecdotal andpersonal, but I'd say that was
sort of what I observed.
And, you know, I can talk tillI'm blue in the face about.
Well, you should, you know, youshould always be focused on
buttressing your brand becausethat's what stays steady when
everything else is swirling.
But if budgets aren't there,budgets aren't there.
(37:09):
And so that's the, that's thetough reality of being in a
service business.
Charlotte Ellis Malda (37:13):
Certainly I saw, the words you're using to
describe it, the grasping andthe kind of uncertainty and.
Unstable ground they're, they'redefinitely words that I would
use to describe my experienceinteracting with potential
clients last year, and it'sinteresting when you say it, I,
I should have clocked it sooner,but the clients in the US were
(37:35):
the ones who were talking aboutit first, so I, I feel like it's
kind of, there is this kind ofmovement, not across, but it
definitely, it was a thing theresooner but most of them have
reported things picking uptowards the back end of last
year, so I'm really hoping Youknow, for better or worse, what
happened yesterday means atleast we are in a position where
the next four years is, issomewhat determined now in terms
(37:57):
of like what's going to behappening.
It's not an election yearanymore, right?
So that's a thing.
I think that's right.
I think for all the inevitableunpredictability of what's to
come with this administrationThere is a sense of, okay, here
we go.
Like there we can see the roadin front of us and we just got
to figure out what we want to doon that road.
(38:17):
I mean, I think there's a,there's a, a white paper
percolating inside of me aroundthe role of, of brand purpose in
a second Trump presidency whereDEI initiatives are being.
Slashed and values and norms arebeing flouted on a, on a regular
(38:39):
basis.
I think there is an opportunityfor, for leadership to come from
places that maybe we haven'tlooked for leadership before,
which feels strange to say thatthat's, that's the job for
brands.
But I think as a society,certainly as an American
society, we need that leadershipto come from somewhere.
And so.
I think there's a hugeopportunity and there's some
brands that have been doing somephenomenal leadership work in
(39:02):
the States.
I'm thinking of, for example, a,a formula brand called Bobbie
that has, has really taken onadvocacy roles in people's lives
in addition to sending them tubsof formula to feed their kids.
So I think it's going to bereally, I think there's a huge
opportunity there for brands to,to stand up.
for something.
And that's always my, my hope isthat brands make use of that
(39:27):
ability that they have to reallygalvanize people, to inspire
people, to put their money wheretheir mouth is on issues that
matter to them.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (39:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think I saw that brand do alot of work during the recent
wildfires in terms of givingaccessibility to formula milk.
I mean, for me, brand.
is how we choose brands to alignwith our values.
We choose them based on who wethink we are and how we want to
show up in the world.
And I think, I mean it really isa huge opportunity.
(39:57):
If we are, if we can't trust inour leadership of a country to
stand for what we represent,then we will look to other
people.
And I, yeah, I agree.
I think you should let thatwhite paper percolate, Laura.
I can't wait to read it.
I also have a picture of astovetop coffee maker just like
bubbling away.
I just wanted to ask if you hadany advice to future leaders and
(40:19):
what do you think the nextgeneration of agency and client
leaders need to focus on tosucceed in a rapidly changing
industry world?
And maybe you've just said it,or maybe you have something else
to add.
I think the only other thing I'dadd, I, I.
I only very recently realizedthe strategic power of my
(40:39):
network, and that seems verysilly.
I have a very strong network,facilitated hugely by the WPP
fellowship and my time workingacross a lot of agencies,
because you meet lots of peoplewhen you work lots of agencies.
But I just always thought ofthese people as my friends, and
oh, it's so and so, and we getdrinks, or we get coffee, or we
meet for lunch when I'm in town,or what have you, and that's
(41:00):
great, and true, and it also isa strategic asset, and I think
as we see more and more talentin our industry going
independent, as a leader of anagency, just to bring it back to
the conversation we had earlier,As you think about extending
your capabilities, winning newtypes of clients, mentoring your
(41:22):
junior folks in new ways tobuild their skill sets, having a
network that you're managingstrategically in order to tap
into independent talent andbring them in to supplement the
core of your business, I thinkis going to be really central.
I think the days of big agenciesrunning the show with full time
employees.
(41:42):
I think the, the landscape hasshifted really to the point
where that's not going to everhappen again.
So managing your networkstrategically and bringing in
talent for a lot of differentstrategic purposes, I think is
going to be central for futureagency leaders.
It also feels like one of the benefits
of getting older, your networkis becoming more powerful and
influential in terms of beingdecision makers.
(42:03):
Right.
So there's going to be someperks of getting older.
That feels like one of them.
A hundred percent.
And I'm very excited for myforties.
Let's just put that out there.
I think the forties are going tobe great.
I think that.
Yeah.
And you've seen it before, youknow, that the world doesn't
end.
Right.
I mean, there's just, there'smaturity and perspective that
comes with having done thisbefore the world will not end.
You will not get fired.
(42:24):
Anything can be sorted.
It's just, you know, these,these, these moments, these, you
know, you, you put a foot wrongin a meeting or you drop a ball
for a client and you think theworld is going to end.
And in reality, you're 25.
The world will not end.
The sun will come up tomorrow.
You will have a job.
I mean, maybe you'll get fired,but if you get fired, you'll get
another job.
(42:45):
It's going to be fine.
And I think having that, thatperspective and that longevity
is, is really valuable.
So yes, I fully agree.
You
have given me the warm fuzzies
now.
Everything's going to be okay.
Laura said so.
Well, thank you so much forjoining us, Laura, and I know
you've shared a couple of linksand I will put those in the show
notes.
So anybody who wants to connectwith you can do.
Is there anybody who shouldspecifically get in contact with
(43:06):
you?
Sure.
Always keen to chat withambitious brand leaders, and I
say ambitious, not as athrowaway line, but I really
don't like just fiddling aroundthe edges of things.
I like to ask tough questionsand grapple with potentially
messy situations that need to beresolved and I think you can
(43:30):
probably tell from thisconversation, I don't pull
punches.
I'm very candid, but I'm alsovery optimistic and love getting
my hands dirty.
So anyone who is feeling reallystuck on a thorny problem that
has brand at the center of it Ialways love to have a chat.
And yeah, just to, to sign off with,
I think is the strap line ofyour company.
(43:51):
So it's cider and is it strong,sharp, and sweet?
Just like the real thing.
Like the real thing.
I love it.
I
Laura Pearlstein Mil (43:59):
absolutely love it.
Just, yeah.
I mean, obviously then I'mtalking about British cider
because American cider doesn'thave any booze in it.
So doesn't it?
Oh gosh.
You've just saved
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (44:08):
me ordering that on on a future
holiday.
Thank you.
Laura Pearlstein Mills (44:11):
Yeah, no.
Ours is, I mean, your kids willlike it, but British cider.
I spent enough time in the UK toto have developed a taste for
the real thing.
So amazing.
Well, thank you for joining us,Laura.
Speak soon.
My pleasure.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (44:23):
Thank you.
Bye.
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