May 14, 2025 • 36 mins
Today, on Karl and Crew, we dove deeper into the life of King David and discussed his unapologetic form of praise: dance. King David was known for his creative abilities in music, writing, and dance, and when others tried to make him self-conscious about it, he was unbothered. We turned to 2 Samuel 6:21-22 with Dr. Ryan Cook to see David’s persistence, intentionality, and boldness with his praise. Dr. Cook is an Old Testament and Hebrew Professor at Moody Theological Seminary (MTS). He is also a key writer for “Today in the Word”, Moody Bible Institute’s free daily devotional, and a contributor to the “Moody Handbook of Messianic Prophecy” and several academic publications. Dr. Cook was also recently appointed as Dean of Faculty at MTS. He also has a book coming out in June called “Talking with God: Daily Readings in the Psalms.” We also talked with Dr. William West about how the Bible and Science go hand in hand. Dr. West is a Harvard and Johns Hopkins-trained oncologist and researcher for advanced cancer care. He founded the West Clinic and has grown it from a single practice into a network of five locations. He has also written “Sacred Science: Understanding Divine Creation”. You can hear the highlights of today’s program on Karl and Crew Showcast.
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S1 (00:00):
Coming to you from the Morning Star Mission sponsored studio.
This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
S2 (00:08):
You know, Easter Sunday now, just a couple weeks behind us.
We're a few weeks removed from Easter Sunday. I had
an opportunity to sing in our church's choir on Easter Sunday. Nice.
You don't get a choir every week, but we do
sometimes for special occasions. And so I love choir singing.
I love singing in a choir. I love watching choir sing, sing.
(00:29):
I just love everything about it.
S3 (00:31):
I love it.
S2 (00:32):
Harmonies. The the joining of voices together to praise the
Lord is truly some of the most awesome in the very.
The very essence of that word. Moments are just man like.
Getting lost in worship in a choir.
S3 (00:49):
Makes me think just of eternity. Because, I mean, it's
going to be choir forever of just joining, you know,
and praises. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely. I'm with you.
S2 (00:57):
So Easter Sunday I got there early. We they had
the choir members get there around, I think it was
715 in the morning so that we could prep for
the prep. There was going to be three services, and
so we had to do the practice, getting up and
off the risers and practice through our songs. And things
were going well until we did our final walkthrough. And
as I was climbing up the stairs to get onto
(01:19):
the stage, the person behind me stepped on the back
of my shoe. And so my shoe came off and
I had to try to keep walking. So I grabbed.
She handed me my shoe, I tried to slip my
shoe back on, and then as I climbed up the riser,
now on the stage, there was microphones hanging from the
ceiling and I proceeded to, after getting my shoe back on,
(01:41):
hit my head on the microphone and that's how I
entered the stage. Thankfully, this was just a run through,
but it was very embarrassing. I mean, I had one
of those moments. Not for long. I got over it quickly,
but I had one of those moments like, I look
like an idiot.
S4 (01:59):
Well, and then it's the, the problem is. And this
always seems to happen, is that when one thing happens, right,
like three other things happen and it just compounds on itself.
And I'm like.
S2 (02:08):
It really is. Have you ever seen those videos where
somebody tripping and as they try to catch themselves, they
continue to trip and it becomes like this.
S4 (02:17):
Continuously falling.
S2 (02:18):
Block long of like the almost fall? Yes. I'm curious
to know when's the last time you felt really embarrassed
by something?
S4 (02:27):
Good question.
S2 (02:27):
Text messages on this one. When's the last time something
really embarrassed you? 855 five 7898 800 555 78. 98.
S4 (02:38):
I'll go. A little show based embarrassment. Oh, no. So
these ones I. I am known for just saying yes
to like everything. I'll just do stuff. Carl will go
young Thunder do this. And and we didn't talk about
it before, but I'll do it. And I have a
lot of fun with it. The only one that genuinely
embarrasses me. Oh, no. Is is creative. So like, Jonathan,
(03:01):
make a song.
S2 (03:02):
Oh.
S4 (03:03):
And I'm like, make a song. What do you mean,
make a song? And so my face gets all red.
S5 (03:09):
Your face does get red.
S4 (03:11):
Sometimes it feels like it's 100 degrees in this room.
And I'm like, I can't. And everyone's gracious and lovely
about it, but I'm like, what do you mean I'm
not a creative person? I'll do it. If you give
me clear directions, I will do it and feel no
embarrassment about it. But if you ask me to create
something and then share it with the world, no go.
S5 (03:32):
Feels super.
S2 (03:33):
Vulnerable, right?
S4 (03:34):
Oh yes. My chest cavities opened up for everybody to see.
S2 (03:39):
Diana, last time you felt embarrassed by something?
S3 (03:42):
Oh, yeah. About a month ago, I fell over my
own foot. I need my own foot. My pair of jeans.
I was wearing wide leg jeans. I went to step
up on the curb. I my foot got caught in
my jeans.
S4 (03:54):
You gotta watch out for those bellbottoms.
S3 (03:55):
Yeah. And then I'm trying to jump out and get you,
and you're talking about, you know, the domino effect of falling. Yes. Well,
that was causing me to fall anyways because I was
in momentum of walking forward. So my toe got caught
in my jeans. So as I'm trying to untangle that,
I got it out. But then it hit the curb
because I was close, too close to the curb. So
then I stubbed over the curb. I mean, I went
down hard, hard on the sidewalk, groceries, purse, everything everywhere.
(04:19):
And I just sat there like, wow. And I just assessed, like,
people are probably looking at me. I'm sure they are.
S2 (04:25):
I heard something recently that speaking of, someone said that
the test of whether or not you're now considered old
or young.
S4 (04:36):
Huh?
S3 (04:36):
Careful.
S2 (04:37):
No, no, no, I'm not going to ask you how
how this test went for you. But this person told me,
they said, you know, if you're old or young, based
on how people respond when you fall, no one cares
if you are. No no no no. If you are
young and you fall.
S3 (04:53):
Okay.
S2 (04:53):
People will laugh at.
S4 (04:54):
You. Yes.
S2 (04:55):
If you are considered now older and you fall, people
will look on in grave concern.
S4 (05:01):
Yes, they'll run you. Oh my goodness! Are you okay?
S2 (05:06):
So if you fall and people laugh at you, fear not.
You're still young.
S3 (05:12):
What if they just walk by and don't do anything?
S2 (05:14):
Young. I think it's youth. When they. When people start
to really express concern. That's how we know we're getting older.
That's fair, because falls when you're older. And I've already
experienced a fall when I as now, even at my age,
where I was like this, you don't bounce back from falls.
S4 (05:32):
Yeah. You feel that one for a couple of days.
S2 (05:34):
Embarrassment is a funny thing because your body does have
a very strong response that mirrors that sort of fight
or flight of real danger. There is no danger other
than your own reputation or the momentary feeling of people
saw this, but that sort of the face turns red,
the blushing, the heart rate increases. Sometimes there's sweating. There's
(05:57):
physiological symptoms that mirror actual danger. Even though there is none.
Isn't that fascinating?
S4 (06:04):
It is fascinating. I think it has to do with
the level of vulnerability like we're talking about. It makes
our bodies think that we're in some type of danger
because of how vulnerable we feel.
S2 (06:14):
And the real danger is that we care what other
people think. Yes. Because we don't usually get embarrassed when we've.
We can laugh at ourselves when we do something kind
of silly in private.
S3 (06:25):
For sure.
S2 (06:26):
But we don't necessarily feel embarrassed when we're alone.
S4 (06:29):
We actually kind of laugh to ourselves and say, good
thing no one saw that.
S2 (06:32):
Exactly. Exactly.
S3 (06:34):
Exactly.
S2 (06:34):
I saved myself some embarrassment. Embarrassment is usually rooted in
some fear of man. The feeling that other people's perception
of me. It's pretty important to me. Coming up, we're
going to look at how David viewed what other people
thought of him. He danced before the Lord in such
a way that his wife looked at him and said,
(06:59):
do you really think a king should be acting like that?
David's response is classic, classic. You got to borrow this
one next time someone accuses you of doing a little
too much. Just tell them what David did.
S1 (07:14):
She's a choreographer extraordinaire and everything is Greek to her.
Super di is in the crew. It's Karl and crew
on Moody Radio.
S2 (07:24):
Well, there was a song. I remember my kids coming
home from kids church singing I will dance, I will
sing to be mad for my king was how it started.
And then there was a line that was puzzling. I'll
become even more undignified than this. It's right out of
second Samuel. Kind of an obscure passage, but this idea
of becoming undignified. This is David saying this doctor, Ryan Cook,
(07:48):
he's a professor here at Moody Theological Seminary. He also
writes regularly for Today in The Word, which is a
daily devotional. Maybe you're familiar with give us the context
around this passage of Scripture in Second Samuel. What leads
up to it? And then what causes David to say
that he's going to become undignified?
S6 (08:06):
The story here is that David, very early on in
his kingship, has decided to bring the Ark of the
covenant back from obscurity into the center of Israel's worship
again at the Tabernacle, and to bring it into Jerusalem.
So the Ark of the covenant was part of the
tabernacle that God had commanded Israel to create. And in
order to worship him in the way that God wanted
(08:27):
them to worship him. And the Ark of the covenant
was a symbol of God's presence with Israel. It's often
called like a footstool. If you think of a king
sitting on a throne and you have the footstool there,
that's like God's presence was in the Holy of Holies,
and the ark was his footstool right in the Holy
of Holies, in the Tabernacle. So it represented God's presence,
but it also represented God's relationship with Israel, because inside
(08:51):
the Ark of the covenant were the tablets of the law,
which outlined right God's relationship with Israel and how that
was supposed to be governed, and that had been neglected
for 50 years. All through Saul's reign he seemed to
not care about the Ark of the covenant. And one
of David's first acts as king is, we're going to
obey the Lord. We're going to bring this ark back
(09:11):
to the center of our worship. So it's a time
you could almost think of it as like a spiritual
revival within Israel. And second Samuel six tells the story
of this procession of David and the priest bringing the
ark into Jerusalem this joyful time. And that brings us
to to the passage that we're talking about.
S2 (09:29):
So this is second Samuel 614 And David danced before
the Lord with all his might, and he's wearing a linen.
Is it ephod? Is that how you say it? Yeah.
And then when he gets to the home where his
wife is, she's critical of what she has seen. This
sort of just dancing before the Lord. I've heard some
(09:51):
people say he sort of danced out of his clothes.
Is that accurate?
S6 (09:55):
Yeah, I don't think so. Okay. Um, so David's wearing
a linen outfit, which is sometimes associated with a priesthood,
but it's also not the royal regalia. He's not dressed
like a king. Okay. And so you wouldn't notice that
normally you could tell a king by how they look immediately.
But he's leading Israel in worship, and it talks about
all these musical instruments that are used in it and
(10:15):
dancing as a part of it. I kind of wonder
if maybe David wrote a Psalm, particularly for this occasion.
We don't know that for sure. But he's worshiping wholeheartedly
with abandon before the Lord there. And I don't know
if you've had times where you've been on like a
spiritual high, and then you meet someone and they just
say something that takes all the wind out of your sails.
S2 (10:35):
That's that's what happened here. That's what happened here.
S6 (10:39):
And interestingly, Michael was not there as a part of
this worship celebration. As David comes home, the text says
to bless his household. Michael comes out into the streets and.
S2 (10:48):
Michael is the name of his.
S6 (10:49):
Wife. Michael is the name of his wife. And she
criticizes him for it and says, you know how the
king has demeaned himself and the language that's used there is,
she says, how the king has uncovered himself in verse 20.
It doesn't mean that David took his clothes off. What
she's getting at is that David has acted in a
(11:10):
way that has demeaned the office of the King. David
has acted in a way that was really way more
humbling than a king should act. And interestingly, twice in
this passage, the narrator calls Michael Saul's daughter, the daughter
of Saul. And we always have to pay attention when
the narrator tells us something. Why are they mentioning that
(11:31):
back in verse 16 says Michael, the daughter of Saul,
and then again in verse 20, and the tone here
is she's saying, listen, David, I grew up in the
royal household, right? I know how a king should act.
S2 (11:44):
Huh?
S6 (11:45):
But you're like a shepherd boy. You don't really know
what you're doing, and the way that you're acting now
is demeaning the office of the King. All these people
are looking at you with contempt because of how you're
expressing your emotion in that sort of thing, in such
a public way. Not acting in playing the part of
a king. So that's that's kind of the tone behind this. Yeah.
S7 (12:06):
So that takes us to.
S2 (12:08):
This passage of Scripture, this specific verse. Now, second Samuel 622,
in response to his wife's sort of criticism, he says,
I will make myself yet more contemptible than this. Some
translations say undignified. He pushes back almost with like a
you think you've seen. You haven't seen anything yet. If
(12:29):
you think this was something, why did he respond this way?
S6 (12:33):
Yeah. So it's about perspective, right? And so David's saying
I'm worshiping the Lord wholeheartedly with abandoned authentically, which is
really a hallmark of David's life. You think of all
the Psalms, even some of the stories in first and
second Samuel. And what he's saying is I'm going to
continue to act in that way. And you'll notice that
(12:53):
there's a little bit of a translational issue. But in
verse 22, in the ESV, he says, I will be
abased in your eyes. In other words, I'm going to
continue to demean myself in your perspective. But that's not
really the perspective that I'm concerned about. If you go
back just earlier, David says in verse 21, he says,
it was before the Lord. In other words, I was
(13:13):
worshiping before the Lord. I was more concerned about what
he thought than about what the people were thinking or
about what you're thinking.
S2 (13:20):
Wow.
S6 (13:21):
And so I'm going to continue to lean into this worship,
and it's going to get even worse in your eyes.
But before people really fear the Lord, they'll honor me.
They'll know what's what's going on.
S2 (13:32):
Does Michael have a point here? I mean, is there
any validity to what she's saying, or is she purely
what's her motivation here in trying to reign David in?
Is it her own embarrassment?
S6 (13:43):
I think what's motivating her is she was formed growing
up in Saul's household, and so her standards for what's
normal for a king are really coming from that, not from, say,
the Torah or from from David himself. And in fact,
that's why David responds to her in the way he
does in verse 21. He says, it was before the
(14:05):
Lord who chose me above your father. In other words,
you're criticizing me for not acting like a king in
a dignified way like your father did. Well, look what
happened with your father. Yeah, that's. I'm not trying to
model myself after him. I'm trying to model myself after
following the Torah with that wholehearted devotion to the Lord that,
like Deuteronomy, would call us to. To love the Lord
our God with all our heart and all our soul
(14:26):
and all our strength?
S2 (14:27):
Yeah. And so that's I guess, the final question is
this made its way into a song. I'll become more
undignified than this. I remember when my kids would sing it.
It was usually accompanied by lots of dancing and, you know,
it was kind of loud and wild. What's the takeaway
of something like this?
S6 (14:43):
Yeah, I think we might feel a little bit removed
from Michael's criticism, like none of us are kings trying
to act in a dignified role. But I think there
is a connection with, you know, we live in a
very secular society and, you know, no one would think
twice if an adult male jumped and shouted for joy
if their team won the Super Bowl or something like that. Yeah,
(15:03):
but if they acted as if God was real, if
they gave themselves over to abandonment in worship wholeheartedly, they
kind of look askance at them like, you're kind of weird.
What's going on with that? And that can be tempting
for us to sort of modify our relationship with God,
at least publicly, how we present it so that we
(15:24):
don't seem socially that weird. And what David here is saying,
you know, what matters more than what people think is
what the Lord thinks. And acting before him in a
way that that really brings honor to the Lord. And
I think that's something we can learn from the life
of David.
S2 (15:39):
I love it, this passage of Scripture, if you want
to look it up today, it's in second Samuel six.
Read through the whole thing. It's a fascinating description there,
but there's a lot there. Thank you to our guest,
Doctor Ryan Cook, for joining us today. I want to
point you to today in the word phenomenal resource. If
you have not connected with this, you can get the emails.
You can read it on the app. Just text the
(16:01):
word today to 800 555 7898. Text today to 800
555 7898.
S1 (16:09):
Tune in whenever you like. Check out the podcast wherever
you like to stream.
S2 (16:16):
It's amazing how often we have to kind of push
through our own sense of wanting to appear dignified, wanting
to kind of go with what seems appropriate for the moment.
S4 (16:30):
Sure.
S2 (16:31):
What? Not really wanting to push too far outside the box.
And I mean, those impulses are strong, right?
S4 (16:40):
Oh, goodness. Yes.
S2 (16:41):
Like, have you ever even had a moment where, like you,
you typically pray before a meal, but like everybody else,
is sort of going and eating and like, you feel
like in this moment, gosh, it feels kind of awkward
to like, just stop and pray.
S4 (16:55):
Yeah.
S2 (16:55):
You know, and that's such a small thing.
S3 (16:57):
Oh, you do it at home, but you don't do
it at the restaurant.
S2 (16:59):
But then you're like, why? Why is there a little
barrier here?
S4 (17:03):
Yes.
S2 (17:03):
Like, why am I, in some subtle way, worried that
people might think it's a little weird for me to
just stop in the middle?
S4 (17:09):
Yeah.
S2 (17:10):
And pray. I mean, or maybe I'm the only one.
S4 (17:12):
Oh, no, of course you're not the only one. I mean,
I've felt this way in, in even in church about, like,
lifting my hands for worship. I it's not something I
ever really did as a kid. I mean, I didn't
I came to know Jesus about six years ago, but
I grew up in the church, and I always thought
raising your hands was a little weird. Now I feel
called sometimes to raise my hands, but I get nervous
about it. Or I'm like, I'm lifting my hands in
(17:33):
front of people and they're gonna see me do that,
and I get nervous about it. But I always feel
like when I do it, I'm like, I'm in the
presence of God right now, and it's just me and him,
and I don't have to worry about if anybody's thinking
something else.
S2 (17:46):
And I really love this conversation about David and his
undignified worship. The fact that he danced with before the
Lord with such abandon. And his wife was like, hmm, basically,
a king would not act like that. I mean, what
are what are you doing here? And trying to kind
of rein him in and he, with defiance, is like,
(18:07):
I'll be even more.
S4 (18:09):
I love that that.
S2 (18:10):
You ain't seen nothing yet. And it really got me
thinking about the the times when we our call as
a Christ follower is to do something to take some step,
whether it's in worship or anything else, where we might
look a little foolish to the watching world.
S4 (18:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
S2 (18:28):
Where people might go, what are you what are you
doing over there? Yeah. You know, I it's my my,
I have a 15 year old daughter who really prefers
to read a physical Bible as opposed to what would
be easier would be just the electronic version. Because she
always has her phone number.
S3 (18:47):
And her age.
S2 (18:48):
For her, always reading the actual Bible. So she carries
this tattered pink Bible with her absolutely everywhere. And and
she will open it up. And she's kind of pushed
past that barrier of like, what will people think of her?
And she will just we'll we'll catch her on the
sidelines of getting ready for her basketball game. She's got
(19:09):
this pink Bible open. We'll catch her in the I
mean and it's and it's such a cool thing because
I think she she had to push through a little
bit of a kind of the strange looks of people going,
what do you.
S3 (19:19):
I'm sure, I'm sure she did.
S2 (19:21):
What are you reading? What are you what are you doing? Like,
that's kind of. It's kind of weird. You're like reading
a Bible right now. Yeah. You know. And what what
do you. What do you say, Jonathan? There's a story
that comes to mind when you think about this idea
of kind of pushing past what feels uncomfortable, maybe even
foolish to the world to honor God.
S4 (19:38):
Yeah. There's this story of of my brother, actually. And
and he's shared this publicly before, so I feel like
it's totally fine to share it. So my brother, uh,
back in 2019, uh, admitted himself into rehab, uh, through
a lot of different addiction challenges. Uh, he was stuck
in he went and wanted to get better. And it
(20:00):
was a Christian based rehab center. And, uh, he moved
there and spent some time there and, and was being counseled.
And through the process, I won't talk about everything he
was going through or that they were counseling him through,
but he had some stuff that his his counselor said, I,
before we meet again, I want you to go and
I want you to process these things, talk like go
and and just talk with God about these things. And
(20:22):
so he went out to a fire pit outside at
the center, uh, and he was going over this list
that he had written, and he was just feeling this
gigantic barrier, like he couldn't do what the counselor was
asking him to do. And he prayed about it, and
he said, God, I can't do this. I don't know.
I don't know. I don't know if this is possible
for me. And he was praying about it. And God said,
(20:44):
I want you to go over. And he said, God
spoke really clearly to him about this. I want you
to go over to this Calvary replica, which Calvary is
the three crosses? Uh, you know, where where Jesus was
crucified and the two thieves next to him. And and
so they had three crosses up in this little outside area.
He said, I want you to go and I want
you to kneel at the cross. And my brother had
(21:05):
an argument with God. He said, he said, that's stupid. Uh,
you're not there. I'm I'm not going to go kneel
in front of, you know, a couple pieces of wood.
S2 (21:14):
How foolish will I look?
S4 (21:15):
How foolish will I look? That's a that's a dumb thing.
I'm not going to do that. And he said, God
kept telling him, you need to go over and kneel
in front of it. And he said, all right, fine,
I'll go do it. And he kneeled down in front
of it, and he said, when he did, it's like
he saw the feet of Jesus hanging on the cross
in front of him, like it was that real. And
he broke down and he said, that was my moment
(21:38):
where I genuinely came to Christ. And the thing, the
barriers that he was experiencing, he said those were lifted
from me. I was able to do the thing the
counselor was asking me to do, because I finally came
to terms with Jesus, and it was because I physically
kneeled down in front of a cross replica that I
(21:59):
thought was silly to do, but Jesus was asking me to.
S2 (22:01):
Ooh, I love that story. Yeah. You know, I'd love
to hear from you this morning. What comes to mind
for you? What what thing did God call you to
do that maybe you felt a little foolish at first.
Maybe looked a little foolish or undignified. But, you know,
it's what God called you to do. Maybe it was
in worship. Maybe it was to go up and talk
to some stranger about Jesus. What's something that God called
(22:23):
you to do? That at first felt a little foolish
or undignified. 800, 555 7898. I really want to hear
your responses on this, because I'm convinced that when we can,
by God's grace, push past that feeling of discomfort. Man.
We can walk in new levels of freedom. What's your story?
800 555 7898.
S1 (22:46):
Making herself laugh no matter who joins her. It's time
for Ali thinks it's funny.
S2 (22:53):
Nothing like a good joke or two. Or a bad
joke or two to get your Wednesday off right. This is.
Ali thinks.
S3 (23:01):
It's.
S2 (23:01):
Funny. Have you ever noticed that some people only seem
to get sick on weekdays?
S3 (23:07):
Hmm. Yeah.
S2 (23:09):
What is the common denominator between people who only get
sick on weekdays? Work days, if you will.
S3 (23:17):
Okay.
S4 (23:18):
I don't know.
S2 (23:19):
I know it must have a weakened immune system. A
weakened immune system.
S3 (23:27):
Okay.
S4 (23:28):
That's pretty good.
S2 (23:30):
When I started to tell that, I was like, wait,
there's a lot of ways you could go with this.
Somebody who only gets sick and I'm going gonna use
sick in air quotes.
S3 (23:37):
Yeah.
S2 (23:38):
It's Monday.
S3 (23:39):
Yes, it's that weekend.
S2 (23:43):
Immune system again. So I went to Costco the other day.
This is now part of the joke. I didn't really
go to Costco, but it's the setup. I never want
to lie to you.
S4 (23:53):
But you could say you.
S8 (23:54):
Went to Costco the other.
S3 (23:55):
Day. I do go, there you go. Yeah.
S2 (23:57):
So I went to Costco the other day, and I
picked up a new one of those new handy dandy
4 in 1 printers.
S3 (24:04):
Oh, good for you.
S4 (24:05):
4 in 1.
S2 (24:06):
Yeah. You know, it could do all the things. You
just need one. One little device and it can do
all the things.
S8 (24:11):
Very nice.
S2 (24:12):
Unfortunately, I got pulled over on the way home from Costco.
I was driving home with my new 4 in 1 printer.
The cop approached the car. I rolled the window down
and I asked him if he'd like to see all
the cool features on my new 4 in 1 printer.
S4 (24:27):
Interesting of you to do that.
S2 (24:28):
His response? Just the facts, ma'am.
S8 (24:32):
Like. What? Just the facts.
S4 (24:37):
I know, I get.
S8 (24:38):
It. Just the facts.
S3 (24:40):
What? At the same time.
S4 (24:41):
Try explaining what faxing is to someone who's younger.
S8 (24:44):
Than you. Don't know what a fax is.
S4 (24:46):
I know what a fax is, but I know for a.
S8 (24:48):
Fact that.
S4 (24:49):
There's many people who are just slightly younger.
S8 (24:51):
Than me. Okay.
S2 (24:52):
I'm going to ask for a show of hands, because
we do happen to have two younger people in the room.
We do. Do either of you know what a fax?
Do you know what a fax?
S8 (25:00):
Do you know fax? Do you know what a fax machine.
S2 (25:02):
Okay, two for two.
S3 (25:04):
Okay.
S8 (25:04):
See?
S2 (25:04):
These are. This is the under 25 crowd. Both of
them knew. Both of them knew the facts.
S8 (25:09):
Hold on.
S4 (25:10):
James, could you explain a fax to me if I
told you about it? If I asked you to come
up to this microphone and tell me about it.
S8 (25:19):
No. Maybe not. You said.
S4 (25:21):
I don't.
S8 (25:21):
Know. Just the facts. See?
S2 (25:25):
They got it. You can't be making excuses that why
you don't find my jokes funny? That maybe the younger
people don't understand.
S8 (25:31):
No, no, no, I didn't say. That's why I didn't think.
S4 (25:34):
It was.
S8 (25:34):
Funny. I didn't think.
S4 (25:35):
It was funny for other reasons, but.
S8 (25:38):
Wow. Do you.
S2 (25:39):
Do you remember the show that that phrase came from.
S8 (25:43):
Which.
S4 (25:43):
Is the facts?
S8 (25:43):
No.
S2 (25:44):
Yeah. Just. Okay, so then maybe this is the layers
of it. There's layers to this joke, and maybe some
of them are lost.
S4 (25:50):
Gotcha.
S2 (25:51):
This was attributed to Joe Friday from Dragnet.
S8 (25:54):
Okay.
S4 (25:55):
I heard the name Dragnet.
S2 (25:56):
I guess he didn't actually say it. Apparently, he didn't
actually say it, but it kind of became a part
of the pop culture lexicon. Anyway, I'm Overexplaining jokes.
S3 (26:07):
Yeah, leave.
S2 (26:07):
It to 805 five, five 7898. Sometimes you win, sometimes
you don't. Text jokes to 800 555 7898. Someone out
there really appreciated that just didn't happen to be in
this room.
S1 (26:24):
He was sharing the gospel on the radio and then
he got saved. Young thunders in the crew. It's Carl
and crew on Moody Radio.
S2 (26:33):
Well, coming up, we have a Harvard trained, Johns Hopkins
trained oncologist and researcher who's going to help us tackle
this question comes up a lot. Someone will say, I'm
not sure I can believe in God because I believe
in science. Are those two opposed? I'll give you the
short version. They're absolutely not. In fact, there's a sacred
(26:56):
story that's being told everywhere you look, inside and out.
More coming up.
S1 (27:02):
You can take him out of Alaska, but you can't
take Alaska out of him. Carl is in the crew.
It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
S9 (27:12):
Whenever I go overseas, I get another glimpse of God
at work. And whenever archaeologists dig a little deeper, it
just confirms God. And whenever you look a little closer
and I'm talking science, all of a sudden creation comes alive.
Isn't it amazing? The deeper we dig, the closer we look,
(27:35):
and the more experiences we have. God's popping up all
over the place.
S2 (27:39):
But yet the narrative that's still is so pervasive out there.
You'll hear people say, I'm sorry. I cannot believe in
the Bible. I can't believe in God because I believe
in science. Our guest, Doctor William West. That must fire
you up a little bit. When you hear people say,
I don't believe in God, I believe in science. That's
(28:00):
the perfect setup for you, right? You're ready to go
when someone says that, right?
S10 (28:04):
It's just so ironic because the science is a revelation
of God. I just find it almost humorous.
S2 (28:10):
Doctor William West, Harvard and Johns Hopkins trained oncologist, a researcher.
He's advanced cancer care and research over three decades. Give
us the elevator pitch of how you would respond to someone.
You have only an elevator ride from floor one to
floor eight. I know that's a short amount of time,
but where would you start with someone who? That was
(28:31):
what they led with? I don't believe in God. I
believe in science.
S10 (28:35):
I would tell them very quickly that they need to
revisit the science, understand how the pieces fit together, and
when they see how beautifully they fit together, they'll realize
they're super intelligent creation. And actually, science is an alternative
revelation of God. So they're just moving from the scriptural
revelation to a scientific revelation and seeing the same unimaginable God.
S9 (28:57):
Doctor West, you must be blown away in your study,
in your practice, in all the many decades of work
that you've done as an oncologist and researcher, what are
some of the most eye popping things that you've discovered
in recent days, months, maybe even a year or two
that you go, oh my goodness, there is intelligent design here.
S10 (29:17):
Well, our bodies are so beautifully made right now, I'm
actually working on a project where we if you know
what a T cell is, that's a brain cell in
our immune system that can fight cancer. And we now
have the mechanism to put a new set of eyes,
a new receptor in that T cell to see the cancer.
So all of a sudden, every T cell in the
body is fighting the cancer. Of course, that's a man
(29:38):
made engineered thing. But the underlying possibility is obviously divinely designed.
S2 (29:44):
Let's talk a little bit about just creation, the creation story.
How does science tell a sacred story even from the
very beginning?
S10 (29:54):
Well, the first sentence of the Bible is my favorite.
And I wonder, you know, this is 600 years before Jesus.
And the first words in the beginning and involved light.
Our best scientists didn't believe that. You know, Albert Einstein
really resisted the idea that we had a beginning. And
to realize that hundreds of years before Jesus, an inspired writer,
(30:14):
was able to write that sentence and say there was
a beginning and it involved light. And that's exactly what
science understands and says and describes.
S9 (30:23):
Do you see? Um, because I've, I had the privilege
of talking closely with the very skilled oncologist here in Chicagoland,
and there's a commitment in his craft to really be
committed to helping heal people. Are you seeing people that
are looking more closely, deeply at science and contemplating origins,
(30:44):
or is there still a resistance to that in your profession?
What would you say?
S10 (30:49):
Well, 60% of my profession are believers, but generally speaking,
in science, there's this sort of unwritten don't open the
door to God. Let's let's keep it quote scientific and
it's kind of disappointing. It mutes a lot of our
would be discussion. And that's true in all the sciences.
In oncology we have a little more freedom. You know,
people are more willing to talk about their faith. And
(31:12):
I think it's our responsibility as oncologists to be there
for them and to be able to have that discussion
and always look for that opportunity.
S2 (31:19):
Doctor Bill West, our guest right now, Harvard and Johns
Hopkins trained oncologist and research. Does cancer reveal a flaw
in God's design. I mean, so many people, probably every
person listening at this moment has been touched by cancer,
whether it's a loved one or a friend or themselves.
Does it reveal a flaw in God's design?
S10 (31:40):
No. I think it reflects very well. It's clearly planned. Clearly, uh,
reflecting a preparation made by God. And, uh, one of
the discoverers of DNA finally gave up and said it
must have flown in from outer space. And so I'm
not surprised that we have cancer because there's so much
information in that molecule. You know, we replicate our DNA
(32:01):
1 trillion times per day. So the idea that we
can do that with perfection is just not realistic. And
therefore we are going to have mutations. And as we
get older, they're going to be more likely. At the
same time, of course, in oncology we're trying to find
new drugs and identify new targets and be more effective
at treating these mutations as they arise.
S9 (32:20):
There seems to be a move afoot in some circles
of science that are saying, because you mentioned human responsibility
and free will, and God's put some things in motion.
And I know that a lot of our cancers, um,
research is proving that a lot of them are the
result of a lot of the impurities and things that
(32:42):
we brought into our systems, either willfully or passively, just
by living in the world that we live in today.
How much of your counsel that you give to people
comes back to God's plan for even how we treat
our bodies?
S10 (32:56):
The biggest mistake I ever made was the production of
tobacco and giving cigarettes to the soldiers during the war,
in the early years of my career. Lung cancer just dominated.
And gradually young people have gotten that information and the
frequency of smoking is going down, thank goodness. But that's
the clearest example of us having the free will to
do something that, by hindsight, was not really very bright
(33:19):
and was certainly potentially damaging to our health.
S2 (33:22):
Doctor West, I'm curious about your own background and testimony.
Did you come to faith early in life and then
know you wanted to go into science, or which came
first for you?
S10 (33:32):
Well, you couldn't be my mother's child and not be
a Christian. So she introduced me to the faith when
I was old enough for her to hold my hand
and keep me awake in church. She had a favorite
book and it was called Portraits of Christ in Genesis.
It's a classic. I've got it sitting behind me right
now in my bookshelf. And I read that periodically because
it's just so beautiful, basically pointing that the whole testament
(33:54):
is really looking forward to Jesus. I was blessed as
a child to have a mother who had such a
deep and wonderful faith. She died of breast cancer when
I was 21, which is why I chose this particular field.
S9 (34:05):
Interesting.
S10 (34:06):
Parents have such a vital and beautiful role to play
in introducing children to their faith.
S9 (34:12):
Yeah. It's interesting. Doctor West lost my dad. Uh, he
was 95 when he passed. Interesting, though. My dad battled
a couple, 3 or 4 different types of cancer, believe
it or not. And yet you wouldn't have known it.
Looking at my dad, my dad was an incredible man
of God. He had incredible faith. And even when he
(34:33):
was diagnosed with stage four colon rectal cancer, my dad
would put a clenched fist in front of his face.
And with passion he'd say, Oh, Carl, God is so good.
And my dad's witness, through all of his treatments to
both the saved and unsaved alike, doctors included, was so
(34:53):
profound that I. I stood in the operating room and
looked at a surgeon who said to me, your dad's
outlook on life. And then he said, and he attributes
it to God is probably one of his greatest assets
to overcome this. How have you seen that linked?
S10 (35:15):
You know, I wish we had ever done a study.
I don't think I've ever seen a formal study done,
but boy have I seen the individuals who have that
faith and I just seem to a feeling like they
do better. They're empowered. It seems like they take their
treatment better and they do better.
S2 (35:28):
Doctor William West has a new book out. His first.
It's called Sacred Science Understanding Divine Creation. Fascinating story tells
about the story that science tells the sacred story. Why
our creator is a mathematical genius. Fascinating work. I think
you're going to be interested. Text science will get you
the details. Text science to 855 five 7898. Just text
(35:52):
science to 800 555 7898.
S9 (35:56):
You know, Ali, for thousands of our listeners who look
for things like this constantly, this is in the wheelhouse.
This is written by a man with many years of experience,
and he's got a story to tell. And it all
comes from faith into science. So check it out.
S2 (36:14):
Text science to 855 five 7898. Just one word. Science
800 555 7898.
Coming to you from the Morning Star Mission sponsored studio.
This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
S2 (00:08):
You know, Easter Sunday now, just a couple weeks behind us.
We're a few weeks removed from Easter Sunday. I had
an opportunity to sing in our church's choir on Easter Sunday. Nice.
You don't get a choir every week, but we do
sometimes for special occasions. And so I love choir singing.
I love singing in a choir. I love watching choir sing, sing.
(00:29):
I just love everything about it.
S3 (00:31):
I love it.
S2 (00:32):
Harmonies. The the joining of voices together to praise the
Lord is truly some of the most awesome in the very.
The very essence of that word. Moments are just man like.
Getting lost in worship in a choir.
S3 (00:49):
Makes me think just of eternity. Because, I mean, it's
going to be choir forever of just joining, you know,
and praises. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely. I'm with you.
S2 (00:57):
So Easter Sunday I got there early. We they had
the choir members get there around, I think it was
715 in the morning so that we could prep for
the prep. There was going to be three services, and
so we had to do the practice, getting up and
off the risers and practice through our songs. And things
were going well until we did our final walkthrough. And
as I was climbing up the stairs to get onto
(01:19):
the stage, the person behind me stepped on the back
of my shoe. And so my shoe came off and
I had to try to keep walking. So I grabbed.
She handed me my shoe, I tried to slip my
shoe back on, and then as I climbed up the riser,
now on the stage, there was microphones hanging from the
ceiling and I proceeded to, after getting my shoe back on,
(01:41):
hit my head on the microphone and that's how I
entered the stage. Thankfully, this was just a run through,
but it was very embarrassing. I mean, I had one
of those moments. Not for long. I got over it quickly,
but I had one of those moments like, I look
like an idiot.
S4 (01:59):
Well, and then it's the, the problem is. And this
always seems to happen, is that when one thing happens, right,
like three other things happen and it just compounds on itself.
And I'm like.
S2 (02:08):
It really is. Have you ever seen those videos where
somebody tripping and as they try to catch themselves, they
continue to trip and it becomes like this.
S4 (02:17):
Continuously falling.
S2 (02:18):
Block long of like the almost fall? Yes. I'm curious
to know when's the last time you felt really embarrassed
by something?
S4 (02:27):
Good question.
S2 (02:27):
Text messages on this one. When's the last time something
really embarrassed you? 855 five 7898 800 555 78. 98.
S4 (02:38):
I'll go. A little show based embarrassment. Oh, no. So
these ones I. I am known for just saying yes
to like everything. I'll just do stuff. Carl will go
young Thunder do this. And and we didn't talk about
it before, but I'll do it. And I have a
lot of fun with it. The only one that genuinely
embarrasses me. Oh, no. Is is creative. So like, Jonathan,
(03:01):
make a song.
S2 (03:02):
Oh.
S4 (03:03):
And I'm like, make a song. What do you mean,
make a song? And so my face gets all red.
S5 (03:09):
Your face does get red.
S4 (03:11):
Sometimes it feels like it's 100 degrees in this room.
And I'm like, I can't. And everyone's gracious and lovely
about it, but I'm like, what do you mean I'm
not a creative person? I'll do it. If you give
me clear directions, I will do it and feel no
embarrassment about it. But if you ask me to create
something and then share it with the world, no go.
S5 (03:32):
Feels super.
S2 (03:33):
Vulnerable, right?
S4 (03:34):
Oh yes. My chest cavities opened up for everybody to see.
S2 (03:39):
Diana, last time you felt embarrassed by something?
S3 (03:42):
Oh, yeah. About a month ago, I fell over my
own foot. I need my own foot. My pair of jeans.
I was wearing wide leg jeans. I went to step
up on the curb. I my foot got caught in
my jeans.
S4 (03:54):
You gotta watch out for those bellbottoms.
S3 (03:55):
Yeah. And then I'm trying to jump out and get you,
and you're talking about, you know, the domino effect of falling. Yes. Well,
that was causing me to fall anyways because I was
in momentum of walking forward. So my toe got caught
in my jeans. So as I'm trying to untangle that,
I got it out. But then it hit the curb
because I was close, too close to the curb. So
then I stubbed over the curb. I mean, I went
down hard, hard on the sidewalk, groceries, purse, everything everywhere.
(04:19):
And I just sat there like, wow. And I just assessed, like,
people are probably looking at me. I'm sure they are.
S2 (04:25):
I heard something recently that speaking of, someone said that
the test of whether or not you're now considered old
or young.
S4 (04:36):
Huh?
S3 (04:36):
Careful.
S2 (04:37):
No, no, no, I'm not going to ask you how
how this test went for you. But this person told me,
they said, you know, if you're old or young, based
on how people respond when you fall, no one cares
if you are. No no no no. If you are
young and you fall.
S3 (04:53):
Okay.
S2 (04:53):
People will laugh at.
S4 (04:54):
You. Yes.
S2 (04:55):
If you are considered now older and you fall, people
will look on in grave concern.
S4 (05:01):
Yes, they'll run you. Oh my goodness! Are you okay?
S2 (05:06):
So if you fall and people laugh at you, fear not.
You're still young.
S3 (05:12):
What if they just walk by and don't do anything?
S2 (05:14):
Young. I think it's youth. When they. When people start
to really express concern. That's how we know we're getting older.
That's fair, because falls when you're older. And I've already
experienced a fall when I as now, even at my age,
where I was like this, you don't bounce back from falls.
S4 (05:32):
Yeah. You feel that one for a couple of days.
S2 (05:34):
Embarrassment is a funny thing because your body does have
a very strong response that mirrors that sort of fight
or flight of real danger. There is no danger other
than your own reputation or the momentary feeling of people
saw this, but that sort of the face turns red,
the blushing, the heart rate increases. Sometimes there's sweating. There's
(05:57):
physiological symptoms that mirror actual danger. Even though there is none.
Isn't that fascinating?
S4 (06:04):
It is fascinating. I think it has to do with
the level of vulnerability like we're talking about. It makes
our bodies think that we're in some type of danger
because of how vulnerable we feel.
S2 (06:14):
And the real danger is that we care what other
people think. Yes. Because we don't usually get embarrassed when we've.
We can laugh at ourselves when we do something kind
of silly in private.
S3 (06:25):
For sure.
S2 (06:26):
But we don't necessarily feel embarrassed when we're alone.
S4 (06:29):
We actually kind of laugh to ourselves and say, good
thing no one saw that.
S2 (06:32):
Exactly. Exactly.
S3 (06:34):
Exactly.
S2 (06:34):
I saved myself some embarrassment. Embarrassment is usually rooted in
some fear of man. The feeling that other people's perception
of me. It's pretty important to me. Coming up, we're
going to look at how David viewed what other people
thought of him. He danced before the Lord in such
a way that his wife looked at him and said,
(06:59):
do you really think a king should be acting like that?
David's response is classic, classic. You got to borrow this
one next time someone accuses you of doing a little
too much. Just tell them what David did.
S1 (07:14):
She's a choreographer extraordinaire and everything is Greek to her.
Super di is in the crew. It's Karl and crew
on Moody Radio.
S2 (07:24):
Well, there was a song. I remember my kids coming
home from kids church singing I will dance, I will
sing to be mad for my king was how it started.
And then there was a line that was puzzling. I'll
become even more undignified than this. It's right out of
second Samuel. Kind of an obscure passage, but this idea
of becoming undignified. This is David saying this doctor, Ryan Cook,
(07:48):
he's a professor here at Moody Theological Seminary. He also
writes regularly for Today in The Word, which is a
daily devotional. Maybe you're familiar with give us the context
around this passage of Scripture in Second Samuel. What leads
up to it? And then what causes David to say
that he's going to become undignified?
S6 (08:06):
The story here is that David, very early on in
his kingship, has decided to bring the Ark of the
covenant back from obscurity into the center of Israel's worship
again at the Tabernacle, and to bring it into Jerusalem.
So the Ark of the covenant was part of the
tabernacle that God had commanded Israel to create. And in
order to worship him in the way that God wanted
(08:27):
them to worship him. And the Ark of the covenant
was a symbol of God's presence with Israel. It's often
called like a footstool. If you think of a king
sitting on a throne and you have the footstool there,
that's like God's presence was in the Holy of Holies,
and the ark was his footstool right in the Holy
of Holies, in the Tabernacle. So it represented God's presence,
but it also represented God's relationship with Israel, because inside
(08:51):
the Ark of the covenant were the tablets of the law,
which outlined right God's relationship with Israel and how that
was supposed to be governed, and that had been neglected
for 50 years. All through Saul's reign he seemed to
not care about the Ark of the covenant. And one
of David's first acts as king is, we're going to
obey the Lord. We're going to bring this ark back
(09:11):
to the center of our worship. So it's a time
you could almost think of it as like a spiritual
revival within Israel. And second Samuel six tells the story
of this procession of David and the priest bringing the
ark into Jerusalem this joyful time. And that brings us
to to the passage that we're talking about.
S2 (09:29):
So this is second Samuel 614 And David danced before
the Lord with all his might, and he's wearing a linen.
Is it ephod? Is that how you say it? Yeah.
And then when he gets to the home where his
wife is, she's critical of what she has seen. This
sort of just dancing before the Lord. I've heard some
(09:51):
people say he sort of danced out of his clothes.
Is that accurate?
S6 (09:55):
Yeah, I don't think so. Okay. Um, so David's wearing
a linen outfit, which is sometimes associated with a priesthood,
but it's also not the royal regalia. He's not dressed
like a king. Okay. And so you wouldn't notice that
normally you could tell a king by how they look immediately.
But he's leading Israel in worship, and it talks about
all these musical instruments that are used in it and
(10:15):
dancing as a part of it. I kind of wonder
if maybe David wrote a Psalm, particularly for this occasion.
We don't know that for sure. But he's worshiping wholeheartedly
with abandon before the Lord there. And I don't know
if you've had times where you've been on like a
spiritual high, and then you meet someone and they just
say something that takes all the wind out of your sails.
S2 (10:35):
That's that's what happened here. That's what happened here.
S6 (10:39):
And interestingly, Michael was not there as a part of
this worship celebration. As David comes home, the text says
to bless his household. Michael comes out into the streets and.
S2 (10:48):
Michael is the name of his.
S6 (10:49):
Wife. Michael is the name of his wife. And she
criticizes him for it and says, you know how the
king has demeaned himself and the language that's used there is,
she says, how the king has uncovered himself in verse 20.
It doesn't mean that David took his clothes off. What
she's getting at is that David has acted in a
(11:10):
way that has demeaned the office of the King. David
has acted in a way that was really way more
humbling than a king should act. And interestingly, twice in
this passage, the narrator calls Michael Saul's daughter, the daughter
of Saul. And we always have to pay attention when
the narrator tells us something. Why are they mentioning that
(11:31):
back in verse 16 says Michael, the daughter of Saul,
and then again in verse 20, and the tone here
is she's saying, listen, David, I grew up in the
royal household, right? I know how a king should act.
S2 (11:44):
Huh?
S6 (11:45):
But you're like a shepherd boy. You don't really know
what you're doing, and the way that you're acting now
is demeaning the office of the King. All these people
are looking at you with contempt because of how you're
expressing your emotion in that sort of thing, in such
a public way. Not acting in playing the part of
a king. So that's that's kind of the tone behind this. Yeah.
S7 (12:06):
So that takes us to.
S2 (12:08):
This passage of Scripture, this specific verse. Now, second Samuel 622,
in response to his wife's sort of criticism, he says,
I will make myself yet more contemptible than this. Some
translations say undignified. He pushes back almost with like a
you think you've seen. You haven't seen anything yet. If
(12:29):
you think this was something, why did he respond this way?
S6 (12:33):
Yeah. So it's about perspective, right? And so David's saying
I'm worshiping the Lord wholeheartedly with abandoned authentically, which is
really a hallmark of David's life. You think of all
the Psalms, even some of the stories in first and
second Samuel. And what he's saying is I'm going to
continue to act in that way. And you'll notice that
(12:53):
there's a little bit of a translational issue. But in
verse 22, in the ESV, he says, I will be
abased in your eyes. In other words, I'm going to
continue to demean myself in your perspective. But that's not
really the perspective that I'm concerned about. If you go
back just earlier, David says in verse 21, he says,
it was before the Lord. In other words, I was
(13:13):
worshiping before the Lord. I was more concerned about what
he thought than about what the people were thinking or
about what you're thinking.
S2 (13:20):
Wow.
S6 (13:21):
And so I'm going to continue to lean into this worship,
and it's going to get even worse in your eyes.
But before people really fear the Lord, they'll honor me.
They'll know what's what's going on.
S2 (13:32):
Does Michael have a point here? I mean, is there
any validity to what she's saying, or is she purely
what's her motivation here in trying to reign David in?
Is it her own embarrassment?
S6 (13:43):
I think what's motivating her is she was formed growing
up in Saul's household, and so her standards for what's
normal for a king are really coming from that, not from, say,
the Torah or from from David himself. And in fact,
that's why David responds to her in the way he
does in verse 21. He says, it was before the
(14:05):
Lord who chose me above your father. In other words,
you're criticizing me for not acting like a king in
a dignified way like your father did. Well, look what
happened with your father. Yeah, that's. I'm not trying to
model myself after him. I'm trying to model myself after
following the Torah with that wholehearted devotion to the Lord that,
like Deuteronomy, would call us to. To love the Lord
our God with all our heart and all our soul
(14:26):
and all our strength?
S2 (14:27):
Yeah. And so that's I guess, the final question is
this made its way into a song. I'll become more
undignified than this. I remember when my kids would sing it.
It was usually accompanied by lots of dancing and, you know,
it was kind of loud and wild. What's the takeaway
of something like this?
S6 (14:43):
Yeah, I think we might feel a little bit removed
from Michael's criticism, like none of us are kings trying
to act in a dignified role. But I think there
is a connection with, you know, we live in a
very secular society and, you know, no one would think
twice if an adult male jumped and shouted for joy
if their team won the Super Bowl or something like that. Yeah,
(15:03):
but if they acted as if God was real, if
they gave themselves over to abandonment in worship wholeheartedly, they
kind of look askance at them like, you're kind of weird.
What's going on with that? And that can be tempting
for us to sort of modify our relationship with God,
at least publicly, how we present it so that we
(15:24):
don't seem socially that weird. And what David here is saying,
you know, what matters more than what people think is
what the Lord thinks. And acting before him in a
way that that really brings honor to the Lord. And
I think that's something we can learn from the life
of David.
S2 (15:39):
I love it, this passage of Scripture, if you want
to look it up today, it's in second Samuel six.
Read through the whole thing. It's a fascinating description there,
but there's a lot there. Thank you to our guest,
Doctor Ryan Cook, for joining us today. I want to
point you to today in the word phenomenal resource. If
you have not connected with this, you can get the emails.
You can read it on the app. Just text the
(16:01):
word today to 800 555 7898. Text today to 800
555 7898.
S1 (16:09):
Tune in whenever you like. Check out the podcast wherever
you like to stream.
S2 (16:16):
It's amazing how often we have to kind of push
through our own sense of wanting to appear dignified, wanting
to kind of go with what seems appropriate for the moment.
S4 (16:30):
Sure.
S2 (16:31):
What? Not really wanting to push too far outside the box.
And I mean, those impulses are strong, right?
S4 (16:40):
Oh, goodness. Yes.
S2 (16:41):
Like, have you ever even had a moment where, like you,
you typically pray before a meal, but like everybody else,
is sort of going and eating and like, you feel
like in this moment, gosh, it feels kind of awkward
to like, just stop and pray.
S4 (16:55):
Yeah.
S2 (16:55):
You know, and that's such a small thing.
S3 (16:57):
Oh, you do it at home, but you don't do
it at the restaurant.
S2 (16:59):
But then you're like, why? Why is there a little
barrier here?
S4 (17:03):
Yes.
S2 (17:03):
Like, why am I, in some subtle way, worried that
people might think it's a little weird for me to
just stop in the middle?
S4 (17:09):
Yeah.
S2 (17:10):
And pray. I mean, or maybe I'm the only one.
S4 (17:12):
Oh, no, of course you're not the only one. I mean,
I've felt this way in, in even in church about, like,
lifting my hands for worship. I it's not something I
ever really did as a kid. I mean, I didn't
I came to know Jesus about six years ago, but
I grew up in the church, and I always thought
raising your hands was a little weird. Now I feel
called sometimes to raise my hands, but I get nervous
about it. Or I'm like, I'm lifting my hands in
(17:33):
front of people and they're gonna see me do that,
and I get nervous about it. But I always feel
like when I do it, I'm like, I'm in the
presence of God right now, and it's just me and him,
and I don't have to worry about if anybody's thinking
something else.
S2 (17:46):
And I really love this conversation about David and his
undignified worship. The fact that he danced with before the
Lord with such abandon. And his wife was like, hmm, basically,
a king would not act like that. I mean, what
are what are you doing here? And trying to kind
of rein him in and he, with defiance, is like,
(18:07):
I'll be even more.
S4 (18:09):
I love that that.
S2 (18:10):
You ain't seen nothing yet. And it really got me
thinking about the the times when we our call as
a Christ follower is to do something to take some step,
whether it's in worship or anything else, where we might
look a little foolish to the watching world.
S4 (18:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
S2 (18:28):
Where people might go, what are you what are you
doing over there? Yeah. You know, I it's my my,
I have a 15 year old daughter who really prefers
to read a physical Bible as opposed to what would
be easier would be just the electronic version. Because she
always has her phone number.
S3 (18:47):
And her age.
S2 (18:48):
For her, always reading the actual Bible. So she carries
this tattered pink Bible with her absolutely everywhere. And and
she will open it up. And she's kind of pushed
past that barrier of like, what will people think of her?
And she will just we'll we'll catch her on the
sidelines of getting ready for her basketball game. She's got
(19:09):
this pink Bible open. We'll catch her in the I
mean and it's and it's such a cool thing because
I think she she had to push through a little
bit of a kind of the strange looks of people going,
what do you.
S3 (19:19):
I'm sure, I'm sure she did.
S2 (19:21):
What are you reading? What are you what are you doing? Like,
that's kind of. It's kind of weird. You're like reading
a Bible right now. Yeah. You know. And what what
do you. What do you say, Jonathan? There's a story
that comes to mind when you think about this idea
of kind of pushing past what feels uncomfortable, maybe even
foolish to the world to honor God.
S4 (19:38):
Yeah. There's this story of of my brother, actually. And
and he's shared this publicly before, so I feel like
it's totally fine to share it. So my brother, uh,
back in 2019, uh, admitted himself into rehab, uh, through
a lot of different addiction challenges. Uh, he was stuck
in he went and wanted to get better. And it
(20:00):
was a Christian based rehab center. And, uh, he moved
there and spent some time there and, and was being counseled.
And through the process, I won't talk about everything he
was going through or that they were counseling him through,
but he had some stuff that his his counselor said, I,
before we meet again, I want you to go and
I want you to process these things, talk like go
and and just talk with God about these things. And
(20:22):
so he went out to a fire pit outside at
the center, uh, and he was going over this list
that he had written, and he was just feeling this
gigantic barrier, like he couldn't do what the counselor was
asking him to do. And he prayed about it, and
he said, God, I can't do this. I don't know.
I don't know. I don't know if this is possible
for me. And he was praying about it. And God said,
(20:44):
I want you to go over. And he said, God
spoke really clearly to him about this. I want you
to go over to this Calvary replica, which Calvary is
the three crosses? Uh, you know, where where Jesus was
crucified and the two thieves next to him. And and
so they had three crosses up in this little outside area.
He said, I want you to go and I want
you to kneel at the cross. And my brother had
(21:05):
an argument with God. He said, he said, that's stupid. Uh,
you're not there. I'm I'm not going to go kneel
in front of, you know, a couple pieces of wood.
S2 (21:14):
How foolish will I look?
S4 (21:15):
How foolish will I look? That's a that's a dumb thing.
I'm not going to do that. And he said, God
kept telling him, you need to go over and kneel
in front of it. And he said, all right, fine,
I'll go do it. And he kneeled down in front
of it, and he said, when he did, it's like
he saw the feet of Jesus hanging on the cross
in front of him, like it was that real. And
he broke down and he said, that was my moment
(21:38):
where I genuinely came to Christ. And the thing, the
barriers that he was experiencing, he said those were lifted
from me. I was able to do the thing the
counselor was asking me to do, because I finally came
to terms with Jesus, and it was because I physically
kneeled down in front of a cross replica that I
(21:59):
thought was silly to do, but Jesus was asking me to.
S2 (22:01):
Ooh, I love that story. Yeah. You know, I'd love
to hear from you this morning. What comes to mind
for you? What what thing did God call you to
do that maybe you felt a little foolish at first.
Maybe looked a little foolish or undignified. But, you know,
it's what God called you to do. Maybe it was
in worship. Maybe it was to go up and talk
to some stranger about Jesus. What's something that God called
(22:23):
you to do? That at first felt a little foolish
or undignified. 800, 555 7898. I really want to hear
your responses on this, because I'm convinced that when we can,
by God's grace, push past that feeling of discomfort. Man.
We can walk in new levels of freedom. What's your story?
800 555 7898.
S1 (22:46):
Making herself laugh no matter who joins her. It's time
for Ali thinks it's funny.
S2 (22:53):
Nothing like a good joke or two. Or a bad
joke or two to get your Wednesday off right. This is.
Ali thinks.
S3 (23:01):
It's.
S2 (23:01):
Funny. Have you ever noticed that some people only seem
to get sick on weekdays?
S3 (23:07):
Hmm. Yeah.
S2 (23:09):
What is the common denominator between people who only get
sick on weekdays? Work days, if you will.
S3 (23:17):
Okay.
S4 (23:18):
I don't know.
S2 (23:19):
I know it must have a weakened immune system. A
weakened immune system.
S3 (23:27):
Okay.
S4 (23:28):
That's pretty good.
S2 (23:30):
When I started to tell that, I was like, wait,
there's a lot of ways you could go with this.
Somebody who only gets sick and I'm going gonna use
sick in air quotes.
S3 (23:37):
Yeah.
S2 (23:38):
It's Monday.
S3 (23:39):
Yes, it's that weekend.
S2 (23:43):
Immune system again. So I went to Costco the other day.
This is now part of the joke. I didn't really
go to Costco, but it's the setup. I never want
to lie to you.
S4 (23:53):
But you could say you.
S8 (23:54):
Went to Costco the other.
S3 (23:55):
Day. I do go, there you go. Yeah.
S2 (23:57):
So I went to Costco the other day, and I
picked up a new one of those new handy dandy
4 in 1 printers.
S3 (24:04):
Oh, good for you.
S4 (24:05):
4 in 1.
S2 (24:06):
Yeah. You know, it could do all the things. You
just need one. One little device and it can do
all the things.
S8 (24:11):
Very nice.
S2 (24:12):
Unfortunately, I got pulled over on the way home from Costco.
I was driving home with my new 4 in 1 printer.
The cop approached the car. I rolled the window down
and I asked him if he'd like to see all
the cool features on my new 4 in 1 printer.
S4 (24:27):
Interesting of you to do that.
S2 (24:28):
His response? Just the facts, ma'am.
S8 (24:32):
Like. What? Just the facts.
S4 (24:37):
I know, I get.
S8 (24:38):
It. Just the facts.
S3 (24:40):
What? At the same time.
S4 (24:41):
Try explaining what faxing is to someone who's younger.
S8 (24:44):
Than you. Don't know what a fax is.
S4 (24:46):
I know what a fax is, but I know for a.
S8 (24:48):
Fact that.
S4 (24:49):
There's many people who are just slightly younger.
S8 (24:51):
Than me. Okay.
S2 (24:52):
I'm going to ask for a show of hands, because
we do happen to have two younger people in the room.
We do. Do either of you know what a fax?
Do you know what a fax?
S8 (25:00):
Do you know fax? Do you know what a fax machine.
S2 (25:02):
Okay, two for two.
S3 (25:04):
Okay.
S8 (25:04):
See?
S2 (25:04):
These are. This is the under 25 crowd. Both of
them knew. Both of them knew the facts.
S8 (25:09):
Hold on.
S4 (25:10):
James, could you explain a fax to me if I
told you about it? If I asked you to come
up to this microphone and tell me about it.
S8 (25:19):
No. Maybe not. You said.
S4 (25:21):
I don't.
S8 (25:21):
Know. Just the facts. See?
S2 (25:25):
They got it. You can't be making excuses that why
you don't find my jokes funny? That maybe the younger
people don't understand.
S8 (25:31):
No, no, no, I didn't say. That's why I didn't think.
S4 (25:34):
It was.
S8 (25:34):
Funny. I didn't think.
S4 (25:35):
It was funny for other reasons, but.
S8 (25:38):
Wow. Do you.
S2 (25:39):
Do you remember the show that that phrase came from.
S8 (25:43):
Which.
S4 (25:43):
Is the facts?
S8 (25:43):
No.
S2 (25:44):
Yeah. Just. Okay, so then maybe this is the layers
of it. There's layers to this joke, and maybe some
of them are lost.
S4 (25:50):
Gotcha.
S2 (25:51):
This was attributed to Joe Friday from Dragnet.
S8 (25:54):
Okay.
S4 (25:55):
I heard the name Dragnet.
S2 (25:56):
I guess he didn't actually say it. Apparently, he didn't
actually say it, but it kind of became a part
of the pop culture lexicon. Anyway, I'm Overexplaining jokes.
S3 (26:07):
Yeah, leave.
S2 (26:07):
It to 805 five, five 7898. Sometimes you win, sometimes
you don't. Text jokes to 800 555 7898. Someone out
there really appreciated that just didn't happen to be in
this room.
S1 (26:24):
He was sharing the gospel on the radio and then
he got saved. Young thunders in the crew. It's Carl
and crew on Moody Radio.
S2 (26:33):
Well, coming up, we have a Harvard trained, Johns Hopkins
trained oncologist and researcher who's going to help us tackle
this question comes up a lot. Someone will say, I'm
not sure I can believe in God because I believe
in science. Are those two opposed? I'll give you the
short version. They're absolutely not. In fact, there's a sacred
(26:56):
story that's being told everywhere you look, inside and out.
More coming up.
S1 (27:02):
You can take him out of Alaska, but you can't
take Alaska out of him. Carl is in the crew.
It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
S9 (27:12):
Whenever I go overseas, I get another glimpse of God
at work. And whenever archaeologists dig a little deeper, it
just confirms God. And whenever you look a little closer
and I'm talking science, all of a sudden creation comes alive.
Isn't it amazing? The deeper we dig, the closer we look,
(27:35):
and the more experiences we have. God's popping up all
over the place.
S2 (27:39):
But yet the narrative that's still is so pervasive out there.
You'll hear people say, I'm sorry. I cannot believe in
the Bible. I can't believe in God because I believe
in science. Our guest, Doctor William West. That must fire
you up a little bit. When you hear people say,
I don't believe in God, I believe in science. That's
(28:00):
the perfect setup for you, right? You're ready to go
when someone says that, right?
S10 (28:04):
It's just so ironic because the science is a revelation
of God. I just find it almost humorous.
S2 (28:10):
Doctor William West, Harvard and Johns Hopkins trained oncologist, a researcher.
He's advanced cancer care and research over three decades. Give
us the elevator pitch of how you would respond to someone.
You have only an elevator ride from floor one to
floor eight. I know that's a short amount of time,
but where would you start with someone who? That was
(28:31):
what they led with? I don't believe in God. I
believe in science.
S10 (28:35):
I would tell them very quickly that they need to
revisit the science, understand how the pieces fit together, and
when they see how beautifully they fit together, they'll realize
they're super intelligent creation. And actually, science is an alternative
revelation of God. So they're just moving from the scriptural
revelation to a scientific revelation and seeing the same unimaginable God.
S9 (28:57):
Doctor West, you must be blown away in your study,
in your practice, in all the many decades of work
that you've done as an oncologist and researcher, what are
some of the most eye popping things that you've discovered
in recent days, months, maybe even a year or two
that you go, oh my goodness, there is intelligent design here.
S10 (29:17):
Well, our bodies are so beautifully made right now, I'm
actually working on a project where we if you know
what a T cell is, that's a brain cell in
our immune system that can fight cancer. And we now
have the mechanism to put a new set of eyes,
a new receptor in that T cell to see the cancer.
So all of a sudden, every T cell in the
body is fighting the cancer. Of course, that's a man
(29:38):
made engineered thing. But the underlying possibility is obviously divinely designed.
S2 (29:44):
Let's talk a little bit about just creation, the creation story.
How does science tell a sacred story even from the
very beginning?
S10 (29:54):
Well, the first sentence of the Bible is my favorite.
And I wonder, you know, this is 600 years before Jesus.
And the first words in the beginning and involved light.
Our best scientists didn't believe that. You know, Albert Einstein
really resisted the idea that we had a beginning. And
to realize that hundreds of years before Jesus, an inspired writer,
(30:14):
was able to write that sentence and say there was
a beginning and it involved light. And that's exactly what
science understands and says and describes.
S9 (30:23):
Do you see? Um, because I've, I had the privilege
of talking closely with the very skilled oncologist here in Chicagoland,
and there's a commitment in his craft to really be
committed to helping heal people. Are you seeing people that
are looking more closely, deeply at science and contemplating origins,
(30:44):
or is there still a resistance to that in your profession?
What would you say?
S10 (30:49):
Well, 60% of my profession are believers, but generally speaking,
in science, there's this sort of unwritten don't open the
door to God. Let's let's keep it quote scientific and
it's kind of disappointing. It mutes a lot of our
would be discussion. And that's true in all the sciences.
In oncology we have a little more freedom. You know,
people are more willing to talk about their faith. And
(31:12):
I think it's our responsibility as oncologists to be there
for them and to be able to have that discussion
and always look for that opportunity.
S2 (31:19):
Doctor Bill West, our guest right now, Harvard and Johns
Hopkins trained oncologist and research. Does cancer reveal a flaw
in God's design. I mean, so many people, probably every
person listening at this moment has been touched by cancer,
whether it's a loved one or a friend or themselves.
Does it reveal a flaw in God's design?
S10 (31:40):
No. I think it reflects very well. It's clearly planned. Clearly, uh,
reflecting a preparation made by God. And, uh, one of
the discoverers of DNA finally gave up and said it
must have flown in from outer space. And so I'm
not surprised that we have cancer because there's so much
information in that molecule. You know, we replicate our DNA
(32:01):
1 trillion times per day. So the idea that we
can do that with perfection is just not realistic. And
therefore we are going to have mutations. And as we
get older, they're going to be more likely. At the
same time, of course, in oncology we're trying to find
new drugs and identify new targets and be more effective
at treating these mutations as they arise.
S9 (32:20):
There seems to be a move afoot in some circles
of science that are saying, because you mentioned human responsibility
and free will, and God's put some things in motion.
And I know that a lot of our cancers, um,
research is proving that a lot of them are the
result of a lot of the impurities and things that
(32:42):
we brought into our systems, either willfully or passively, just
by living in the world that we live in today.
How much of your counsel that you give to people
comes back to God's plan for even how we treat
our bodies?
S10 (32:56):
The biggest mistake I ever made was the production of
tobacco and giving cigarettes to the soldiers during the war,
in the early years of my career. Lung cancer just dominated.
And gradually young people have gotten that information and the
frequency of smoking is going down, thank goodness. But that's
the clearest example of us having the free will to
do something that, by hindsight, was not really very bright
(33:19):
and was certainly potentially damaging to our health.
S2 (33:22):
Doctor West, I'm curious about your own background and testimony.
Did you come to faith early in life and then
know you wanted to go into science, or which came
first for you?
S10 (33:32):
Well, you couldn't be my mother's child and not be
a Christian. So she introduced me to the faith when
I was old enough for her to hold my hand
and keep me awake in church. She had a favorite
book and it was called Portraits of Christ in Genesis.
It's a classic. I've got it sitting behind me right
now in my bookshelf. And I read that periodically because
it's just so beautiful, basically pointing that the whole testament
(33:54):
is really looking forward to Jesus. I was blessed as
a child to have a mother who had such a
deep and wonderful faith. She died of breast cancer when
I was 21, which is why I chose this particular field.
S9 (34:05):
Interesting.
S10 (34:06):
Parents have such a vital and beautiful role to play
in introducing children to their faith.
S9 (34:12):
Yeah. It's interesting. Doctor West lost my dad. Uh, he
was 95 when he passed. Interesting, though. My dad battled
a couple, 3 or 4 different types of cancer, believe
it or not. And yet you wouldn't have known it.
Looking at my dad, my dad was an incredible man
of God. He had incredible faith. And even when he
(34:33):
was diagnosed with stage four colon rectal cancer, my dad
would put a clenched fist in front of his face.
And with passion he'd say, Oh, Carl, God is so good.
And my dad's witness, through all of his treatments to
both the saved and unsaved alike, doctors included, was so
(34:53):
profound that I. I stood in the operating room and
looked at a surgeon who said to me, your dad's
outlook on life. And then he said, and he attributes
it to God is probably one of his greatest assets
to overcome this. How have you seen that linked?
S10 (35:15):
You know, I wish we had ever done a study.
I don't think I've ever seen a formal study done,
but boy have I seen the individuals who have that
faith and I just seem to a feeling like they
do better. They're empowered. It seems like they take their
treatment better and they do better.
S2 (35:28):
Doctor William West has a new book out. His first.
It's called Sacred Science Understanding Divine Creation. Fascinating story tells
about the story that science tells the sacred story. Why
our creator is a mathematical genius. Fascinating work. I think
you're going to be interested. Text science will get you
the details. Text science to 855 five 7898. Just text
(35:52):
science to 800 555 7898.
S9 (35:56):
You know, Ali, for thousands of our listeners who look
for things like this constantly, this is in the wheelhouse.
This is written by a man with many years of experience,
and he's got a story to tell. And it all
comes from faith into science. So check it out.
S2 (36:14):
Text science to 855 five 7898. Just one word. Science
800 555 7898.
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