Book Review I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello everyone. I'm Carl and I'm Im. Welcome to our podcast discussing all the latest books.

(00:11):
This is season two episode 11 and today we are discussing I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings
by Maya Angelou. As always we will save our ratings in the very end. We promise to give
you all of our honest opinions on all the characters, chapters and scenarios. We don't
mean any harm to any of the authors. This is solely our opinion and as always we promise

(00:31):
to Carl and Mike Rouridum. Period. So some trigger warnings for this book include racism
and racial slurs, white supremacy and mentions of the KKK, sexism and misogyny, sexual assault
of a child, chronic bronchitis, alcohol consumption, smoking, dead bodies, murder, physical assault,

(00:56):
abylism, references to being mute due to trauma, traumatic responses, that sort of thing. Can
you think of anything else? I know they mentioned gambling, underage sex. They sure do that.
Prostitution. There's some like it mentioned racial slurs and predominantly it's about
African Americans but there's also some about Mexicans as well. I know there is one section

(01:22):
where it's kind of like implied human trafficking or like implied cell of underage girl kind
of situation. Yeah so as always just make sure to take care of yourself for diving
in. The main triggers for this book are racism focused on African Americans as it is set
back in the days of segregation in her childhood. Most of the book is in the south so that makes

(01:47):
even worse. You should also be aware that quotes may be read from this book that could
contain language that could be triggering as well. You should expect spoilers to lie
ahead. If you don't want to hear how this book ends please pause here, go read the book
and then come back to this episode. Are you ready to get started? Let's get into it.

(02:08):
Alright so the blurb for this book is here is a book as joyous and painful as mysterious
and memorable as childhood itself. I know why the caged bird sings captures the longing
of lonely children, the brute insult of bigotry and the wonder of words that can make the
world right. Maya Angelou's debut memoir is a modern American classic beloved worldwide.

(02:33):
Sent by their mother to live with her devout grandmother in a small southern town, Maya
and her brother endure the ache of abandonment and prejudice. At eight years old and back
at her mother's side in St. Louis, Maya is attacked by a man many times her age and has
to live with the consequences for a lifetime. Years later in San Francisco, Maya learns
that love for herself, the kindness of others, her own strong spirit and the ideas of great

(02:56):
authors will allow her to be free instead of imprisoned. Poetic and powerful, I know
why the caged bird sings will touch hearts and change minds for as long as people read.
The memoir opens in 1931 when three year old Maya arrives in Stamps, Arkansas along with
her four year old brother Bailey. Their parents recently divorced sent the siblings to the

(03:19):
small southern town to live with their grandmother, Mama Henderson. Mama owns a general store
in the black part of Stamps and runs it with the help of her disabled son, Uncle Willie.
From an early age, Maya struggles with the feelings of self doubt, abandonment and fine
solace of books and a brother's company. More mischievous than his sister, Bailey fills
their time with new adventures and becomes Maya's best friend and confidant. The town

(03:40):
of Stamps is highly segregated and Maya has minimum contact with the white population,
but nevertheless she regularly witnesses instances of racism. When she watches Mama Henderson
hide Uncle Willie from the Ku Klux Klan and sees the white neighborhood girls talk down
to her grandmother, Maya is overwhelmed with a strong sense of injustice.
So the first opening starts whenever Maya is reading a poem during the Easter service

(04:06):
at a church. While she's reading this poem, she kind of speeds through it because she
realizes that she needs to use a restroom. And as she's rushing out the door, she ends
up urinating on herself. She runs outside and she feels great freedom. And even though
she's aware of the repercussions for having that, she kind of has a little bit of a freedom

(04:28):
moment. We also learned a little bit about Bailey and her brother, which is a year older
than her. And they are on their way to Stamps, Arkansas, which I had not heard of Stamps
before this book. I live in Arkansas. And that was a news thing. I know several other
places that they talked about in the book I was aware of, but Stamps is a new one for

(04:49):
me. Same. And just small little town. Yeah. So her parents have divorced and they decided
to go and live with their grandmother who owns a store with her uncle, which I was a
little weary whenever you had said that there were sexual assault scenes, that it was possibly
the uncle. So I was a little like apprehensive in getting to kind of the introductory of

(05:12):
him. And especially in several scenes, it kind of seemed like he was a little bit more
like chummy, chummy with her. But I realized, you know, now finishing where we're at, that
it was just kind of being an uncle figure, but I was a little apprehensive.
Yeah, I agree. I didn't know who the individual was that had attacked her. And so I also was
really nervous about the uncle. Yeah. So I kept just like waiting for the shoe to drop.

(05:36):
So when she goes back to St. Louis and it's her mother's boyfriend, I don't think they
were married. I think they were just boyfriend and girlfriend. Just so you guys know. I feel
like that's a common thing for me. Like I knew in the nightingale, there was sexual
assault. So I just like every man that we met, I just kept waiting for it to be him. And so
like it's kind of nice to know who it is so that you know when to expect it.

(05:59):
Well I didn't know like how many either. I didn't know if it was more than one or anything
like that too. So I was just like, Oh, maybe it's like a lifetime of men that kind of abused
her. So I was just kind of waiting for Uncle Willie to be that guy. And I kind of hated
it going like through it because he actually did seem like a really big figure in her life
was kind of like a protection, you know, kind of thing. Yeah. Was it actually her uncle

(06:23):
or was he like just somebody she called Uncle? No, that was actually their uncle because
that was mama's son. Okay. I just I don't know the way dad acted. Daddy Bailey, I think
is what they called him. The way he acted, I struggled with connecting that to Mama Henderson.
Like they just I couldn't imagine how she was this great and produced such like a uninvolved

(06:48):
dad. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And the uncle was so great too. So involved in it was
just weird to me like it doesn't have to be a direct correlation from her raising. I just
mean it just is odd to resonate those two characters as related as mom and son.
No I definitely understand that because it was a little confusing for me too at times
because I had trouble kind of like keeping up with the family tree because it was kind

(07:12):
of like, okay, how is that? And then especially whenever they were referring to the grandmother
as mama, like that even was like, okay, are we talking about mother or not mother? And
then they talked about like the woman on the screen that they said looked like their mother
but was a white woman and was just like, okay, well, now we have this other character. And
then they said at one point, I think they said that Bailey was going and watching mama

(07:35):
on the screen. I was like, are we watching the fake mama? Are we watching the real mama?
Is the mama now an actress? Like I just missed this. Like it was, it was a little confusing
just because of the different references to them. Yeah. And so it took me a minute to
realize that mama Henderson, I keep putting their last name on there because that's how

(07:57):
I differentiate it in my brain, that she was dad's mom. When we first went into it, I don't
know why, but I assume she was mom's mom. I did too. And then when she goes to St. Louis,
we find out it's not because mom's mom is there with her. And I was like, Oh, wait a
minute, this whole time I thought that was mom's mom, it's dad's mom. Not that it really
matters, I don't guess, but I don't know. I just that threw me off to start with. And

(08:20):
so then I had to almost like make like a little family tree in my head. So I could keep them
separate and then I started adding the last names to really keep them separate. No, no,
it definitely makes sense. I will say though. And I'll say this more when we get there,
just the little touch of her uncles in St. Louis. I think that might have been my favorite
part of the story. And there's a scene I found to be my favorite at a dentist's office. Yes.

(08:49):
So I listened to that part. I read like the last bit of it, but I listened to that part.
And I was like, wait a minute, that's not what happened. Wait, like I didn't realize
obviously because when you're listening to it, you're not looking at it in the book.
It's italicized. Look, you could almost kind of tell that it wasn't real. Yeah. Or get
a hint maybe in your head. You can't. And so like I was just listening to her tell a story.

(09:13):
And then when she went back and she was like, and mama told uncle this or whatever. And
then she was like, but I liked my version better. I just pause, but like, wait a minute,
back up here. What just happened? And then I pulled the book out to see like if it looked
different in the book. And that's when I realized it was italicized. So that was pretty cool.
So while she is living with mama, she's often disciplined by uncle Willie who has a disability

(09:38):
and apparently whenever he was three years old, his babysitter had dropped him and his
left side of his body had become paralyzed. So he does use a cane to walk and he also
has a speech impediment. And so like neighbors and local children and stuff make fun of him.
And so he tries not to let his disability rob him of his dignity. And so there is one

(09:59):
day that kind of stands out to me where he is in the store and he's pretending to a couple
of customers that he's not disabled. And they're kind of like out of towners. I don't know
if he was like putting on a show for them or if like he knew of them and kind of wanted
to impress them. I'm not quite sure. And as her, I think she was like six years old at
this time. It's kind of hard to say like what that interpretation was.

(10:21):
I don't feel like we got clarification and maybe that's because she was a young child.
But I never really understood what was going on there.
Well, and she does make the comment. He must have been tired of being crippled as prisoners
tire of penitentiary bars and the guilty of the blame. So I mean, maybe he did the particular
point just want to be normal where nobody has anything to say to him or anything like

(10:45):
that.
So one day they are cleaning up the store and the former sheriff comes in to the store
to tell mama that Uncle Willie should lay low that night. He doesn't explain anything,
but he says that a black man had messed with a white lady. So the Ku Klux Klan or the boys,
as he refers to them, might come to the store later that night and look for Uncle Willie.

(11:08):
So mama hides Uncle Willie in a vegetable bin and he spends the nights under potatoes
and onions and they don't end up coming. But basically, Maya does come to the realization
that if they did end up finding him that he probably would have been lynched. So that's
kind of her first, at least that she's wrote about instance where it really has kind of

(11:29):
resonated with her the dangers of the color of their skin and kind of what their people
have to go through in that town.
Yeah, I was hiding in that potato and the way she described it. Like to me, I just
imagine like how suffocating it would feel. Yeah.
My chest hurt. I mean, my chest hurt because the KKK got referenced and they're potentially

(11:54):
coming after Uncle Willie, but also imagining like laying under that all night.
Well, and just like the anticipation of whether or not something was going to happen or not
to like, it wasn't just like, Oh, they're going to drop by at five o'clock. They're
not there. So you're good. It's all night long just waiting for that shoe to drop and
you know, something to happen. And honestly, especially in this time period, there wasn't

(12:19):
really like a justice system to these kinds of crimes. It was just whoever they thought
or best fit the bill, they would, you know, do something too. So unfortunately, I don't
think there would have been any chance for him to say, Hey, it wasn't me.
Absolutely. So in the next chapter, we kind of get into a little bit more of Maya's observations,

(12:40):
the people surrounding her. She talks about how different people wear different kind of
clothing. Some people, because they kind of have more of an independence is how she refers
to it as they stand out in the community. Some of them wear suits. Some of them just
wear handmade clothing. And she talks about how they're all really kind of tightly knit
and they help each other out no matter what their standing is. They kind of have a small

(13:05):
talk with every person they meet. It's very friendly town that they're in. But a lot of
the children, Maya refers to saying that they didn't really know what whites look like because
their town was so segregated from the rest of the area. Several of them were not even
allowed to leave the area to go into what they call white folksville. They have strict

(13:27):
rules that they have to follow. They have to stay clean, keep the store clean. They have
very disciplined upbringings speaks into it later on how it's almost like they are told
to have really good education skills. However, when it comes down to it, she's also kind
of put in a corner of don't push your education down on people like you speak to differently

(13:52):
than the rest of the people here, especially after she had gone off and come back. So even
though she's kind of pushed to be like smart, she's also told not to show that to people.
So it's kind of like a double whammy in a way.
That was an interesting, what's the word? Not theory, but just like an interesting part

(14:13):
of the plot, like as we went through the story, seeing the different ways that education was
talked about and experienced by her and in the different areas, in the different time
periods, all that sort of thing. Every place we went, we got to see that. And I thought
that was something that was interesting. Like I said, that's not what I thought originally
the book was going to be about. I thought it was me about her life, but I kind of thought
it was going to be more about this is kind of morbid, but like all of the bad things

(14:38):
and like that's like just a near constant of bad things. And it wasn't. It was very
beautiful story. I thought the way she told it and she intertwined it all to make it a
full life story as opposed to you know what I mean? But yeah, definitely. But education
was something that she kept coming back to. And I found that really interesting in the
different ways that she experienced it in each area and like the different sort of teachers
and like what it meant for her even individually and different type of teachings as well. Like

(15:02):
you know, one lady taught her kind of the proper way of presenting herself. One lady's
taught her her love of books and her grandma kind of taught her the way of like taking
care of herself and being independent. And so I found it pretty interesting to see like
the different types of things that presented itself and how it presented itself. Like even
like teaching outside of school to like you said the Mrs. Flowers that talked to her about

(15:26):
poetry and stuff. But like grandma teaching her math before she even went to school or
you know, those sort of things like it was just really interesting to see that like the
education play a thread from start to finish, especially in this era, especially for a young
black girl. Like I just thought that was a really interesting way to it's almost like

(15:46):
I don't know. I don't want to say that's almost like the journey that we took with was her
education, but you could see how much it meant to her and how much it impacted her. And that
was really neat.
Yeah. So one predominant thing in the first couple chapters that I do want to speak about
is the white children that had come to the store, the white girls that had basically
mocked her grandmother and her composure. She kept the entire time. I don't think I would

(16:13):
have been able to keep the composure she did. But I'm sure that this was probably not the
first time, unfortunately, that this happened to her. And so she's just sitting there humming
a hymn the entire time and she still addresses them respectfully, you know, whenever they're
going to leave. But Maya is just really not sure or doesn't understand why she would withstand

(16:35):
such humiliation and not reprimand the girls because obviously Maya would have done the
same thing she probably would have been. It just kind of is a realization in her life
where she does end up stating that mama was the one who emerged victorious because she
maintained her dignity by not showing out and, you know, making a scene and things like

(16:57):
that. So definitely kudos to her because I definitely would have not been able to do
it.
Wholeheartedly agree. And I thought it was interesting to get Maya's perspective in that
as a young girl, because like in my brain, I would have, I would have assumed that like
that sort of lesson of self preservation would have been taught already to her at that age.

(17:20):
So it was interesting to see that she didn't even understand at that point seal. And she
was like probably one of her first moments of learning it. And then obviously with uncle
Willie also, but like it was in a very sad, obviously kind of way seeing her come to the
realization of what the world really is to at that time.
Absolutely. Well, I do want to say that as well, the pastor that comes by, Reverend Thomas

(17:43):
that starts coming to dinner, he also got an introduced, especially because that often
happens in kind of some of these scenarios, especially when they're making house calls,
almost like paying special attention to the children. Sometimes that could, you know,
further. So I was just like, Oh, great. But I did find it weird that he like drops by

(18:05):
every week. He just like, they always have food waiting for him just like, I don't know
to me, I guess, I don't know if this is normal in that time period. Like this is the first
time I've ever read anything set in this time period that had this kind of instance where
it was almost like a weekly thing where their Reverend came by. And it was almost like he
made house calls to everybody in town. I think that might be more of a cultural thing. Okay,

(18:29):
that might be what that is. I just even then I've not read any books prior in the past
where that kind of had been referenced. How many books have you read about African Americans
in their religious culture? Well, not just like religion, but like whenever they have
like stories about the childhood, like, I mean, it's not I've not read a lot of fiction,
as part of say, but like nonfiction, you know, I've read maybe three or four other nonfiction

(18:54):
books. But usually the fiction books usually don't have any kind of reference to anything
like that happening either in like the flashbacks or things like that. I don't think I've read
any other books where like it would have occurred or been talked about. So I guess I've ever
had that thought. I was shocked that mama had a store that was mama's and mama was in charge
and mama had the financial stability to even help out others of why am black races. And

(19:24):
so I don't know maybe that played into it. And that's why the Reverend came around. Because
I didn't expect that at all. I was very shocked. I almost feel like maybe and you can get this
out if you want to, but I almost kind of felt like it was like almost like for gossip, like
he was coming because obviously she runs a store. So she'd be coming. She'd be hearing
a lot of things that were going on. So like he was coming to get the local gossip before

(19:47):
he taught his sermon. So he knew what he needed to be speaking about on Sunday.
I would not listen and I did not mean this as an intel at all, but I would not put it
past a pastor to be like, all right now, ladies, tell me what y'all heard about the town so
I can let them know what they need to be doing better. We have several customers that are
pastors and all of them can when they walk in the door and we get to chit chatting, I

(20:11):
promise you they will tell me everything under the sun about their entire congregation if
I asked them pastors in general are nosy. And I get it because like that is how you serve
your congregation is to know about them. So like, I don't mean as an insult, but they
are they're nosy. They want to know what's going on in your life. How can they make it
better? How can they teach you to be better? Like that's always the undertone of every

(20:33):
conversation. So we enter the Great Depression, which ends up hitting their town.
Well, you just read that. I'm sorry. So we enter the Great Depression. It's like a museum
guide and we're like walking along the wall in the timeline. The timeline.
We enter the Great Depression. If I just say the source struggling, then that's just

(20:55):
a random fact. I know it's just funny. I think it's great that you're setting the era and
the atmosphere. Okay. Whatever word you want to use, but I just think it's funny the way
you said it. So we enter the Great Depression and didn't believe that it would ever affect
their community, but then it starts affecting it. I think they even refer to it as something

(21:18):
that's going to affect only the white lives or you know, things like that. And I mean,
to be honest, her comparison is probably true to the facts that they're already extremely
poor as far as most of that community. So it's not going to affect them as greatly because
they don't have a whole lot. It does start affecting them because obviously at some point
the money trickles down. And so a lot of her source customers can't afford to buy food

(21:43):
from her. So she comes up with a way to not go bankrupt. She almost allows them to trade
their rations. So almost they bring in a box of this, they get two of this kind of situation.
They do talk about how they eat powdered milk and powdered eggs quite often, which I've never
had either. But the way she described it, it did not sound good at all. I don't like

(22:04):
eggs anyways. I certainly don't want powdered eggs. No. And the fact that she was able to
help out her town and her people by bargaining and doing that sort of thing with the store
is honestly, I would imagine unheard of in this time period.
Well, we also find out later on that a white dentist had borrowed money from her as well

(22:26):
around this time period. So to me, that was also a big thing because there was a high
chance that he could have said, Hey, I never borrowed any money from you. Don't know what
you're talking about. And really, I don't know what would have been done if that wasn't
the case. But then at the same time, it's a white man going to a black woman for help.
So that's almost unheard of at this point in time as well. But I did find that pretty

(22:48):
significant to how high up mama is in the community that she lives in, but also kind
of how well off she is compared to kind of what it seems like. Based off the descriptions,
she talks about her clothing and the things that she has and stuff like that. It doesn't
seem like they are. But I mean, for that kind of thing to happen, it kind of seems to raise

(23:09):
that and they may have honestly not wanted to live and presented themselves well off
just because that could have added more attention to them.
Yeah, just like in this era, women in general, like couldn't own property. Your money wasn't
your money, your children weren't your children. Like we were property ourselves still. So

(23:30):
I was astonished and to be frank, I would like a story about mama's life to figure
out how she got there. Like was she married and her husband passed away and that's how
she got the property. Is it in Willie's name? And we just don't talk about that, you know,
because Maya was a child and doesn't know those sort of things.
That was kind of my assumption was that it was on Uncle Willie's name and she just kind

(23:51):
of took it over. But that to me would make the most logical sense of kind of the timeline
and kind of why he's still around and hasn't left kind of situation.
Well, I don't think he's left because it talks about at one point when mama took them
to California that he had never not been with his mom. He was 35 years old at that time.

(24:12):
I think that's always ever known anyways. But yeah, it was interesting. I would like
to hear more about that.
Well, and shortly after as well, Maya and Bailey received Christmas presents from their parents
who she actually had believed at this point in time that they were dead because she just
could not in her mind justify why she sent them away. So she does get a little bit emotional

(24:35):
over the presence and kind of the realization that they're not dead. But they then kind
of conclude as young children often come to their own conclusions that their mother
was angry with them and the presence meant basically she'd forgive them and they would
be back at some point.
Isn't that so sad?
It is.

(24:55):
On top of everything else they're having to deal with, they believe that their parents
didn't want them.
Because something they did.
And even then, like, I'm sure whatever it was at six or seven, you know, isn't significant
enough.
Yeah.

(25:16):
So they refer to their father as Daddy Bailey or Big Bailey, and he ends up paying a visit
to Stamps. And honestly, the siblings are kind of shocked at seeing him. But they kind
of like, I guess, fantasized about what he looks like, their mother looks like and things
like that.
But they see his car and they kind of start imagining his life without them, what it looks

(25:42):
like. And they kind of believe that he's pretty wealthy, that he lives in like a giant castle
out in California.
She ends up learning that he is a doorman at one of the Santa Monica's really expensive
hotels.
And they refer to it almost as like, he's worldly because he's traveled so much and

(26:04):
he's been around.
But they do also refer to his speech as being a little bit more proper. I believe the exact
wording is proper English is how they refer to it as.
And he basically spends there for a little bit. And at the end of his trip, he decides
that he's going to announce that he's taking the kids back with him. And Maya is not really
excited to go. She thinks the thoughts of being separated from Bailey just is too much.

(26:28):
Mama Henderson doesn't really have much of a reaction. So she just kind of starts making
clothes for Maya, which is kind of weird to me. But at the same time, I don't think that
she had any kind of custody. So really, he could have come back at any point and taken
them and she really wouldn't have much way of saying it.
I would imagine there were probably conversations in the background that we weren't privy to

(26:50):
since Maya probably wasn't privy to them.
So on their way leaving, the dad decides that they are not going to California. They're
going to stop in St. Louis to see their mother, which to me was weird. You're basically stealing
the children away from their lifestyle they've lived. And then you're going to go visit your

(27:14):
ex-wife and drop them off at basically her doorstep. But then she kind of starts like
snowballing the issue with the fact of like why her mom was too pretty to have children.
Like, you know, that's why she had banned in her. I feel like the mother probably should
have had a set down and was like, Hey, kids, this is what's been going on while you haven't

(27:37):
been able to live with me. But I also wonder if it was preplanned in advance between the
dad and the mom for this to occur. There were definitely a lot of things I would like to
know about that. And part of the reason why I say that is because how we see mom act mother,
I think they called her later in San Francisco, didn't resonate with me and her in St. Louis.

(27:59):
It almost seemed like two different women. Yes. And it might have been a mom might have
been a totally, you know, I mean, it would change as we grow. So I don't know if that's
intentional or if that's just how Maya viewed her. I don't know. But I agree that the St.
Louis thing was random. And who knows, we're getting Maya's perspective. And obviously
St. Louis was very traumatic for Maya. So for all we know, the trauma could have impacted

(28:23):
how she viewed going to St. Louis. Yeah, as well. We don't know. View going to it. But
then also her reflection on experience there. And then, you know, kind of maybe her descriptions
or maybe trauma has blocked out some of those memories that would have further explained
it to us as well. Yeah, it's very possible. So we end up meeting her grandma and grandpa

(28:49):
on her mom's side. And then we also end up meeting her three uncles who are notorious
for bad tempers. We end up coming across the wonderful Mr. Freeman. And that's extremely
sarcastic. So nobody come after me for that. I will say that interesting the way that she
recalls him and their interactions. And then like later on, even the way she referenced

(29:14):
him and stuff, I was impressed by that by her resiliency and like the confrontation of
that time period. I thought, why keep thinking it's gonna be this guy. And so I didn't see
Mr. Freeman coming. To be honest, the little comments by her uncles, I kind of had a suspicion.
It was one of them because it talked about like, I think the quote was like a good mind

(29:34):
than a cute behind or something like that. And so I kind of had a worry that it was
going to be him. But luckily it was not at this point. I had suspected so many people
that I kind of was a little apprehensive of accusing another one, I guess you can say.
Well, and the moment that I knew that it was him is the moment she says that her mom put

(29:57):
her in bed with them. I was like, Oh, okay, here it goes.
Yeah. And I mean, I don't want to go into too much detail about it, but I felt really
bad for her because in that moment she does kind of mentioned that he was like a father
figure and she was finally having the hugs of a parent and stuff like that. And then

(30:21):
to know what he did to her was just, it was just disgusting. My biggest issue with all
of it outside of the actual occurrence of it was kind of how everyone else responded
to her after the fact, like nobody sat her down and was like, you know, this is not your
fault. Like you had no control over this, like don't be down on yourself. Like nobody

(30:44):
had the common decency to sit down and have that conversation with her. And I honestly
don't know a single person in her life that could have been that person because it seemed
like everybody avoided talks about these kinds of things. Like it almost seemed like everybody
just kind of put it in the past. And I don't know if that was predominant because of the
time period or if that was just kind of how her family took care of things.

(31:08):
Well, so for me, I really thought like after experiencing mom in San Francisco and some
other topics like that with mom, I would have assumed mom would have addressed it.
It seems that it was after like not in this time period, but like later on in the book,
it does seem she's very open to those kind of conversations and things. So I would have

(31:32):
suspected that, but it doesn't seem like she ever got that conversation.
No, I agree. I don't know because I feel like the conversation would have happened before
she even had to testify. Also, I didn't realize there was actually like a trial and testimony
and a conviction and I didn't realize any of that actually. And I'm quite shocked to

(31:54):
be honest with you because most of the time, especially with children, there really is
no follow through. Yeah, especially like when she's talking about her testimony, I was already
getting worked up. Let me just be honest. I was going to even more worked up when I
was listening to how she was filling through that testimony. And then when she said that
was the only time or whatever, and I thought, Oh, if he gets found not guilty, I just kept

(32:21):
thinking if one of her uncles don't kill him, they're like these big bad dudes and like,
why has no one taken him out yet? That's what I kept thinking. And then obviously they do
finally. And I'm going to be honest, that was one of my favorite scenes. And I was like,
it's about time. Thank you. Like now she doesn't I mean, was the year of a sentence satisfactory?

(32:43):
Not 1000% that was a terrible sentence for him. And it's death to kind maybe, but she
does not have to look over her shoulder. She's not have to wonder if he's gonna pop up another
day in a store or something like that. He's gone. And there'll be other monsters, I'm
sure, but that one's gone. And so I don't know, I just thought it's about time. Yeah,

(33:09):
I ain't gonna lie. I don't think I would have called the police. The first call after my
daughter came out with bloody underwear would have been to my brothers. And no one else
would have known nothing about it. Gonna be honest, my brother wouldn't do that for me.
It'd be me doing it. But that's what I would have done tomato tomato to me. It was really

(33:31):
saddening. It was disgusting. It was uncomfortable for me as a reader, let alone, I think, obviously
for her, but then to not get anybody to address it throughout her life.
Even like when she goes back to stamps, I was surprised mama. Yeah, I didn't have a conversation

(33:56):
with her. And this like treating her poorly and like sending her back to stamps to not
be your problem because she's decided she doesn't want to speak is insane to me. I was
very surprised by that. That's not how I thought the reaction would have been, especially after
her uncles just went and murdered him. Maybe that's why they got frustrated because they
wanted her to talk about it and they wanted her to acknowledge it and she wouldn't maybe.

(34:19):
I don't know. It's awful. But she's also a child that just went through a horrible and
again, I don't want to go into too many details either. But I couldn't. I don't know which
one was worse. The first one where she almost like okayed it in her own brain because she
also got the love and affection, which is such a manipulative. It's so angering or the

(34:46):
brutality of the next one. Like equally awful. Again, I'm just glad her her uncles killed
him. I'm sorry, but I am. I have no other comments to say, but you are absolutely not
the only one. Yeah, but then we begin her journey with her and I instead of saying like that

(35:14):
she's mute, I almost kind of looked at it more as like she felt like she had lost her
voice. Like she felt like she had been taken away from herself, made into something else.
And she didn't know really what to do with it. And so she just stopped talking until
she could figure it out. Yeah. I would agree. But I think the harder part for me, which

(35:38):
I've never been in this type of situation, but the hardest part for me was that she
did have people that believed her. And I mean, typically they don't, especially at that age.
It's kind of hard, which I mean, or sometimes the parent will always make excuses and be
like, Oh, maybe she just started her period earlier. Some kind of like, that's what I

(35:59):
thought I was going to say. I thought I was going to assume that it was her period. But
I am so glad that she did not. Like I'm glad that there was that stance, but it just to
me, at the same time, it was a little hard for me to not, especially in this time period,
like women were property. And you know, in many cases, they were not allowed to own anything

(36:20):
or stuff like that. So I was really kind of shocked that a, it was a child. But B, it
was a woman that they were allowing to accuse a man and they were agreeing with it. But
it almost seems like her actual mother had a little bit of like a stance up in society
as well, just by like the police officer that came by after, you know, he was killed, like

(36:41):
they kind of had some friendliness to them. So it almost seemed like, you know, maybe
that's why is they had some kind of, you know,
I also had that thought, which is something that as a child, she wouldn't have had to wear
with all to even think about it that point. Honestly, she had much more pressing matters,

(37:02):
but I did find that interesting. And I don't know if it was like, just people were afraid
of them because they were black. And because I know like in that one scenario with the
dentist, it was almost a conversation that she had made up that had like, don't kill
me. And it was almost like that kind of scariness in their brain or something. I don't know.

(37:25):
It just, there was a lot of things that just were weird, but her uncles definitely seemed
like there were some kind of mafia or some kind of like, big bad group.
I think they were 1000% gangsters. Yeah, I got that vibe. It's St. Louis. I'm pretty
sure they were. Yeah, it just seemed like everybody was just kind of like, just let

(37:45):
the boys do what they want to do. They want to kill a man, just let them kill them. Like,
no big deal. Like,
Well, and I think the white police officer probably had the same thought that they didn't
care if white man killed black man. And so like, they weren't really going to waste their
time investigating a black man killing another black man. Like, yeah, they didn't care because

(38:08):
you know what I mean? Like, she says something along that lines at some point. I don't remember
the exact line she had used, but it was something like, I realized the differences in crimes,
you know, for white on white crime or white on black crime is two different things. Or
if it's a black on white, it's much bigger than black on black kind of crime. She says

(38:29):
something to that extended some point later in the book.
Okay, that's kind of what I assumed took precedent. But also it did sound like mama, maybe, or
mother did have a couple of connections or something there.
Yeah, it could be her brothers. So I would say so.

(38:50):
Putting two and two together.
Yeah, pretty sure they were gangsters. I'll use that word.
Definitely had some connections somewhere somehow.
So she does end up returning to stamps with her brother and Mama Henderson kind of just

(39:12):
ignores the subject, which Maya ends up kind of becoming more withdrawn. And then she starts
like, going down this rabbit hole of like wondering who knows about the rape, and who
thinks of her as sinful and dirty as the words I believe she used and just kind of trailed
into this and spiraled. And I think that's part of what played into kind of her silence

(39:32):
was just, you know, her reluctance to be able to move on from it. But it wasn't really her
fault that she couldn't move on to it is just none of the adults were adults enough to address
it with her.
I mean, to me, if you're having such a hard time processing it as an adult, the child
is having 10 times more harder time addressing it. So like, talk to them about it, maybe

(39:56):
uncomfortable, but have a conversation. That's honestly the part that made me angry.
But she doesn't end up befriending a lady named Miss Bertha Flowers, who offers her kind
of a world of knowledge, giving her some kind of formal education and just kind of giving

(40:16):
her a little bit more of experience outside of what she's used to and kind of a different
world to imagine. She starts giving Maya books to read and encourages her to read them out
loud. She kind of introduces her to poetry. She speaks as to, you know, it was a kind
of a way to get outside of herself and into a different world.

(40:37):
I have a quote that Miss Flowers says to her about her not talking and stuff that I'd like
to read. So the quote about her not talking is this, now, no one is going to make you
talk, possibly no one can. But bear in mind, language is a man's way of communicating with
his fellow man and his language alone, which separates him from the lower animals. Your

(41:01):
grandmother says you read a lot every chance you get. That's good, but not good enough.
Words mean more than what is set down on paper. It takes the human voice to infuse them with
the shades of deeper meaning. And then aside from that, she also talks about what she calls
lessons with Miss Flowers. And Maya says, as I ate, she began the first of what we later

(41:23):
called my lessons in living. She said that I must always be intolerant of ignorance,
but understanding of illiteracy, that some people unable to go to school or more educated,
even more intelligent than college professors. She encouraged me to listen carefully to what
country people called mother wit, that in those homely sayings was couched the collective

(41:45):
wisdom of generations. And then it says that she had heard poetry for the first time in
her life. And she said, I have often tried to search behind the sophistication of years
for the enchantment I so easily found in those gifts. The essence escapes, but its aura remains
to be allowed. No, invited into the private lives of strangers and to share their joys

(42:07):
and fears with a chance to exchange the southern bitter warmwood for a cup of mead with a
bill wolf or a hot cup of tea and milk with Oliver twist. When I said aloud, it is a far,
far better thing that I do than I have ever done tears of love filled my eyes at my selflessness.

(42:27):
And like what in the moment she says here, like in the moment that it felt very profound
and she felt like she was learning something. And I'm sure she did. I have no doubt that
she really did take that into heart, but like what it meant for her going forward even the

(42:48):
way it grew and the way she could come back to it and all that sort of stuff. That was
just, I just thought was really beautiful. And like she is, I don't know, this is the
person that introduced her to poetry. And now she's a writer and she writes poetry,
and she writes beautifully. And so like just like a full circle kind of moment. And I just
thought it was really cool to see and hear and talk about and I don't know, I just thought

(43:15):
it was beautiful. Yeah, it makes sense. Also, I love the little lessons and living. We love
any old lady will give a moment to have to pardon on their wisdom to yeah. So that was
always fun. Well, and speaking of old ladies that want to give their opinions and things,
but in the opposite direction, we end up meeting Miss Collin, but she is employed by her around

(43:42):
age 10 to service almost like a maid, a main lady. Yeah. And so she has a habit of like
calling her not by her name, but making up kind of different names. That made me so mad.
Yeah, her co-worker and kind of Mary, because her name's too long. Yeah. You could even
call her like Margie, like would go with Margaret or Maya, which goes by. She says that she

(44:08):
also like had renamed her co-worker Miss Glory as well. And apparently her real name is
Hallelujah, which was an odd name. I don't think I've ever heard that name before, but
even Halle how something like that would have made a little bit more sense. But I guess
her corresponding in her head, it was Hallelujah. But I did find it very funny how she stuck

(44:33):
it to her. And she basically just goes in and breaks all of her prize China. And so,
of course, the woman gets very angry and ends up firing her. And at that point was the only
time she actually uses her real name and she or doesn't use her real name. She like tries
to clarify that her name is Margaret. And again, it's it's not so. Is it Margaret? Marjorit.

(45:01):
Okay. And it was spelled different. She kept calling her Margaret, but her name was Marjorit.
I got so tickled when I thought it's the way she corrected her. But then I got even more
tickled thinking about, do you think that woman has read this book or one of her children

(45:21):
have read this book and realize that it's her? I mean, I don't know. I hope they have.
Well, it says in there that she can't have children. So I doubt she ended up at this
point having children. So she could have adopted.
Yeah, but she seems kind of on the older side based on how she described her.
Well, maybe her nieces and nephews, I don't know. Somebody was like, Hey, that's old grumpy

(45:48):
missus C. Like she was always the bitch. I don't know. You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, I get what you I think though, like
first and foremost for me, like what that was an example of though, is she was calling her by
her full name to start with. And then even though she already changed hallelujah to glory,
but then didn't suggest a new name until one of her friends pointed it out,

(46:14):
which is a little confusing for me. She was calling her Margaret instead of Marjorit.
I thought she was calling her her name. I'm pretty sure she was calling her Margaret.
And whenever Miss Glory kept correcting it was like Marjorit. It's actually Marjorit.
And she just kept saying and then she ended up saying something about it being too long.
So she's just going to go by Mary.

(46:34):
Mrs. Cullen and
Your guess is as good as mine.
I love it here how often she says things like white folks are so strange or like
when she goes into town for the first time, but she sees a white person,
she described what she thought they looked like.
And I mean, it's sad because the context of the time and like the relations between

(46:55):
white people, but like just reading it like now is a little humorous.
So we do get kind of their first sense of almost freedom between Maya and Bailey.
And so they start getting an allowance for helping out in the store. And Bailey decides to
go and use that money to go to the movies. Maya ends up buying cowboy books with it.

(47:18):
But there is one particular that Bailey does not return from the movies at the time he's supposed
to. And so Mama Henderson gets kind of anxious and decides to go looking for him. And he ends up
taking a whooping after he gets home and he doesn't cry or complain. But he does end up saying that
the actress he's seen in the movie was a white woman named Kay who looks like their mother.

(47:43):
And so they end up deciding to wait until the next movie that that woman is in
comes on screen and they would go watch it together. They do end up going and Maya's
excited to realize that the movie started looks just like her mother. But Bailey is kind of
becoming upset, withdrawn, and they decide not to tell Mama Henderson or Uncle Willie,

(48:03):
because they believe that this is like their way of being close to Vivian. And they didn't have,
you know, enough of her to share with other people. I would love to see a picture of her mom
and that actress like in a color side by side picture. So we could see if they like,
did they really look alike? Or is there like one little thing that reminded him of mom and
he was just yearning for mom so much that he thought, you know what I'm saying? Like, I just

(48:24):
thought it'd be interesting. Vivian Baxter's her name. I feel like that's a strong name.
So we do get this scene that I do want to talk about as well, where they are having like a store,
people are like gathering in the store for a radio broadcast of a boxing match. And a black

(48:48):
boxer is facing off against a white boxer. And the black man ends up winning. And so whenever
the festivities are over, they're leaving and they're talking about how a lot of the people
leaving the store had made a range of us stay in town because that night they believed it was very
unsafe for a black man and his family to be caught alone on a country road. And I did think that

(49:12):
that was very important to kind of correlate that the fact that even though something so far off
that was unrelated to them had happened because like at this time, some people in their mind just
that that means like it could be an uprising of black people over white people. There's so many

(49:32):
insignificant events that at this time people corresponded who just wanted to wring out hatred
would end up pouring down into some of these small towns or small areas that had no correlation.
Like these people didn't train this man. These people didn't have anything to do with it. So it
just it bothered me quite a bit. I think it resonates even more for me. Like once we get to

(49:57):
the graduation speech, I can't imagine like the excitement of him winning. But then you have to
like pretend you're not excited because you could be murdered because you're excited. Like
the like absurdity of that, like you can't even celebrate
is insane, first of all. And then he went on to hold the champion for almost another 10 years.

(50:19):
It is interesting to me to think about how it might have changed from year one to the last year
or whatever. If there was a change, honestly, I don't think there was much of one because it was
still segregation years. But it's interesting to think about and how he lived and how he was
impacted also by that victory. You know what I mean? Okay, I'm going to read the quote from
chapter 18 real quick. But I think like this scene to really resonates with this like self

(50:43):
righteousness and that like why people are right and why people are wrong in this time period or
whatever. So anyways, it says they basked in the righteousness of the poor and the exclusiveness
of the downtrodden. Let the white folks have their money and power and segregation and sarcasm
and big houses and schools and lawns like carpets and books and mostly mostly let them have their

(51:05):
whiteness. It was better to be meek and lowly, spat upon and abused for this little time than to
spend eternity frying in the fires of hell. No one would have admitted that the Christian and
charitable people were happy to think of their oppressors turning forever on the devil's spit
over the flames of fire and brimstone. But that was what the Bible said and it didn't make mistakes.

(51:26):
Ain't it said somewhere in there that before one word of this changes, heaven and earth shall
fall away. Folks going to get what they deserved. And I thought it's very fitting, very accurate and
that they all get exactly what they deserve. Yeah, I get you.

(51:49):
So we end up getting into where at the school they start handing out valentines, cards, letters,
things like that. And she receives a letter from a boy named Tommy and she ends up ripping up his
notes and throwing away because she is kind of weird about the in situation. She's not quite sure
how to receive it. And he ends up writing a card that ends up being read in front of the entire

(52:11):
class, which I think is just kind of a violation of privacy. But he basically says, you know,
even though it hurt his feelings that she'll always be his valentine, which we then don't
ever hear about him again, right? No. Okay. Yeah, I was about to say, I don't remember.
I mean, maybe in one of the other short stories that she does, maybe he comes back around at
some point. That's why she felt significant to mention it in this one. But as far as in this

(52:35):
one, he doesn't come back around. I also want to talk about how Bailey was making a like,
had a tent where he basically, okay, hang on. Before we get into that whole thing,
yeah, I just want to add that I thought it was really significant with the valentine thing that
that Maya didn't know like what was age appropriate and normal behavior for young children and him

(52:56):
sitting that valentine, she said, what does he want to do with me? Like what does he want from me?
And it's so sad to me, the simple childhood crushes were ruined from that point forward
because she doesn't have that context. And she has obviously much more context for adults than
that was really sad. But yeah, and then her brother, who was like 11? And I just was like,
oh, he must like, we must have jumped ages up like he's 15, 16. Then she says 11. I was like 11.

(53:23):
And this girl was like 16. Yeah. I was like, well, it wasn't just one girl though. It was like
multiple. Like and they were playing the mama and papa or something like that.
But they were dry humping. So at least they weren't actually, you know, doing it. And then here comes
this grown little girl and tells her to stay outside and watch and then convinces him to put it in.

(53:46):
And he's like, why are you taking your clothes off? She's like, what do you mean? Yeah.
That was so weird. Yeah. And then like that felt like sexual assault too. Yes, it did. And then
like the girl was like, oh, run off and get some like firewood or something like that. And it was
just like, I don't know. It was so weird. It made me uncomfortable. And then like Maya was almost like,

(54:08):
she kind of like stepped in and she was like, no, don't like let her do that to you or whatever.
Thinking that he was being sexually assaulted. And which I mean, he kind of was like, she thinks
he needs to go to the hospital and stuff like that. And then all of a sudden she just like ghost
him and he just like ghosts everybody in his life. In the meantime, it was, it was real weird.
Yeah. Well, and then he was like so heartbroken that she left. Yeah. And everything this little girl

(54:32):
was sleeping around other people in the town to we found out. Yeah. Because you took off with
some train guy or something. Yeah. So which then made me wonder too, like what happened to her and
her childhood that she's sleeping with a little 11 year old boy. Yeah. Who you know, I mean,
you know, they weren't doing that well. So like, what the heck? Yeah, I don't know. It was one of

(54:55):
the weirder scenes to be honest. And that's because there was a lot of weird things. It was
definitely strange. So we end up having where some local guy named George comes to the store and
mama ends up inviting him inside. And apparently his wife had died recently. And so she kind of like

(55:19):
chit chats with him and stuff. And it's almost like he keeps talking about ghosts coming to visit him.
It was strange. It was real. That was just like,
I'm not gonna lie. I didn't really see the point of that thing. And I was just I was kind of like
other than just like to kind of emphasize like where her town was at kind of with logic. I mean,

(55:46):
that's what I took from it is like kind of a basis off of her town and kind of where that comes from.
I thought it might have been something that becomes like significant later for like her spiritual
spiritual journey or whatever. Maybe because we just read this one, we don't get the context for
the rest of it. Yeah, because there are multiple case y'all didn't know that this is just part one
of her like memoir of several books. So we do end up where Maya is graduating from the eighth

(56:10):
grade and they have like graduation ceremony. The white man that comes to the ceremony. Yeah, he was
a politician, maybe. I believe he is a politician. Yeah, so he comes to give a speech and basically
I gather that they did a kind of like a song as what they consider the Negro national anthem.

(56:35):
And they end up skipping over a couple of those things. And apparently they had skipped it because
of the white politician being there. And he started talking about different changes and things like
that coming to the district. And she talks about how basically all of her class was very disappointed
in the changes because all of the changes coming to the black school kind of emphasized towards

(56:58):
them being like different roles in the community that were made and farmers instead of more high
assumed physicians dentists doctors things like that. Yeah, I wanted to read the part of the book.
If that's okay. Yeah, I thought it was significant. And so she says the white kids were going to have
a chance to become Galileo's and Madame Curie's and Edison's and Goggins and our boys. The girls

(57:23):
weren't even in on it would try to be Jesse Owens's and Joey Lewis Owens and the brown bomber were
great heroes in our world. But what school official in the white Gotham of Little Rock had the right
to decide that those two men must be our only heroes? Who decided that for Henry Reed to become a
scientist? He had to work like George Washington Carver as a boot black to buy a lousy microscope.

(57:44):
Bailey was obviously going to be too small to be an athlete. So which concrete angel glued to
what country seat had decided that if my brother wanted to become a lawyer, he had to first pay
penance for his skin by picking cotton and hoe and corn and studying correspondence books at
night for 20 years. The man's dead words fell like bricks around the auditorium and too many
settled in my belly constrained by hard learned manners. I couldn't look behind me. But to my

(58:07):
left and right the proud graduating class of 1940 had dropped their heads. Every girl in my row had
found something new to do with her handkerchief. Some folded the tiny squares into love knots,
some into triangles, but most were wadding them then pressing them flat on their yellow laps.
Graduation the hush hush magic time of frills and gifts and current graduations and diplomas

(58:29):
was finished for me before my name was called. The accomplishment was nothing. The meticulous maps
drawn in three colors of ink learning and spelling. I can't even say this word.
Deca syllabic words memorizing the whole of the rape of Lucris. It was for nothing. Don
Levy had exposed us. We were maids and farmers handyman and washer women and anything hard that

(58:52):
we aspired to was for sickle and presumptuous. Then I wish that Gabriel Prosser and Nat Turner
had killed all white folks in their beds and that Abraham Lincoln had been assassinated before
the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation and that Harriet Tubman had been killed by that blow
on her head and Christopher Columbus had drowned in the Santa Maria. It was awful to be negro and

(59:13):
have no control over my life. It was brutal to be young and already trained to sit quietly and
listen to charges brought against my color with no chance of defense. We should all be dead.
I thought I should like to see us all dead, one on top of the other. A pyramid of flesh with the
white folks in the bottom as the broad base, then the Indians with their silly tomahawks and TPs
and wigwams and treaties, the negroes with their mops and recipes and cotton sacks and spiritual

(59:37):
stickings out of their mouths. The Dutch children should all stumble in their wooden
shoes and break their necks. The French should choke to death on the Louisiana Purchase 1803,
while silkworms ate all the Chinese with their stupid pigtails. As a species, we were an abomination,
all of us. The ugliness they left was palpable, an uninvited guest who wouldn't leave. The choir

(59:59):
was summoned and sang a modern arrangement of onward Christian soldiers with new words pertaining
to graduates seeking their place in the world. But it didn't work. Eloise, the daughter of the
Baptist minister, recited Invictus, and I could have cried at the impertinence of the I am the
master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul. My name had lost its ring of familiarity, and I
had to be nudged to go receive my diploma. All my preparations had fled. I neither marched up to the

(01:00:24):
stage like a conquering Amazon, nor did I look in the audience for Bailey's not of approval.
Marjorie Johnson, I heard the name again. My honors were read. There were noises in the
audience of appreciation, and I took my place on the stage as rehearsed. I thought about colors I
hated. Ecru, peuce, lavender, beige, and black. There was shuffling and wrestling around me,
and then Henry Reed was giving his valedictory address to be or not to be. Hadn't he heard the

(01:00:50):
white folks, we couldn't be. So the question was a waste of time. Henry's voice came out clear and
strong. I feared to look at him. Hadn't he got the message? There was no nobler in the mind for
Negroes because the world didn't think we had minds, and then they let us know it. Outrageous
fortune? Now that was a joke. When the ceremony was over, I had to tell Henry Reed some things.

(01:01:10):
That is, if I still cared. Not rub, Henry, erase. Aw, there's the erase. Us. To be a man, a doer,
a builder, a leader, or to be a toll, an unfunny joke, a crusher of funky told stools, I marveled
that Henry could go through with the speech as if we had a choice. Henry Reed starts to do the

(01:01:30):
belief she referred to as the Negro national anthem, and he does like the actual every single word
correctly and from the beginning and she says that was the first time that she had ever actually
listened to the words and felt them. And she said, but I personally had never heard it before,
never heard the words despite the thousands of times I had sung them, never thought they had
anything to do with me. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty

(01:01:53):
or give me death. The tears that slipped down many faces were not wiped away in shame. We were on
top again. As always, again, we survived. The depths had been icy and dark, but now a bright sun
spoke to our souls. I was no longer simply a member of the proud graduating class of 1940.
I was a proud member of the wonderful, beautiful Negro race. Oh, black known and unknown poets,

(01:02:15):
how often have your auctioned pains sustained us. Who will compute the lonely nights made less
lonely by your songs or by the empty pots that made less tragic by your tales? If we were a
people much given to revealing secrets, we might raise monuments and sacrifice to the memories
of those poets. But slavery cured us of that weakness. It may be enough, however, to have said

(01:02:36):
that we survive an exact relationship to the dedication of our poets include preachers,
musicians and blue singers. I got so emotional that the children even had to experience that in
the first place, obviously. Yeah, the I'd love to know who this man actually was. And I'd like to
know what Henry Reed went on to be. I would love to know his story. But just sadness, like just

(01:02:57):
reading that that they even had to sit there on their big day. I can't imagine that. Yeah,
then to turn around even as a child and say, no, you're not, but we'll be something. This the
strength and courage that I had to have taken to stand up there as a child to do that to like,
oh, that scene was probably one in this entire book. It was really good. Well, I have to say the
one that most significantly kind of put into realization for me was the dentist scene,

(01:03:24):
where Maya had some cavities and they had taken her to Texar Cana to get some teeth pulled and
mama goes to this doctor and of course they have to go in through the back door because of the time
period we're in. And the guy was just like, no, treat color people. And the mama was like, well,
you know, I helped you out during the Great Depression. And it just pretty much like,

(01:03:48):
it was just like disregarded, like you I helped you out, but you paid me back. Like, it's no big
deal. Like, it was just, I don't know, it was it was so sad. And it was just like so drastic,
because obviously Maya's young, she's in pain. And I mean, this guy doesn't even want to help. But
like, he almost seems sorry that he didn't want to help. So I don't know if like, to me, my thought
was, oh, there must have been somebody of importance in his office that he didn't want to be caught

(01:04:10):
doing that. And that was my thought. But at the same time, because obviously, like, it seemed like
she had been there before and had gotten treated there before and never had a problem kind of thing.
So yeah, I did understand that if that was the first time or what exactly was happening there,
because he did seem sort of sympathetic to someone, not necessarily her, but someone else that she

(01:04:32):
knew or something. But like in front of his staff, he won't do it or something, maybe like that,
you know, because word spreads and then, you know, whatever. Well, and see,
my thought is, though, there had been some kind of like, interaction before, because obviously,
he felt comfortable enough to go to mama about borrowing money. So we had to have some kind of
relationship with her, to some extent, to feel comfortable enough to do that. But I just assumed

(01:04:55):
because she was a store owner, that's why I went to her because he could get supplies from her.
Possibly. But no, I agreed. I wanted there had to be some other sort of context back there,
I felt like I will say that saying I love Maya's version. Yeah. And then we find out what that was.
Yeah, she seems like a mob boss. Like, yeah, she did. I love that. And I love the like,

(01:05:19):
again, it's actually quite morbid, but like, allowing her imagination to take her out of that
situation and creating a different story of like what happened to avoid the trauma of the fact that
he was refusing them service. That was an interesting take. Obviously, he's a coward. And I hope his

(01:05:39):
business got shut down. Burn down. Yeah, I think the threat that in her version, she'd said like,
get out of this town and never operate here again or something like that. I liked that.
Are you constantly feeling guilty about spending so much money on buying your favorite books,

(01:06:00):
Carl and M's recommendations, or book trophies? Wearing a more with book outlet books are up to
75% off inventory changes daily, but the prices are consistent. Check our link in the description
and you'll have access to a coupon for $5 off your next purchase. Momma decides that Bailey and Maya

(01:06:21):
need to go back to California. Basically, a chain of events starts happening that puts into perspective
that their life may be at risk or their safety. Bailey was at school one day and he comes home
shocked because he was forced to retrieve a dead body of a black man from a pond. And the next morning,

(01:06:41):
Momma was like, Hey, we're sending you California. She ends up being arranged to go first and then
Bailey ended up joining them afterwards. She's kind of upset and everything because obviously,
she's going to leave the few friends that she does have. But Momma's to the point where safety is
more important than friendships. Yeah, that thing was insane. Yeah. And I don't know if it was just
because it was a black man. So they didn't want to touch him or like what the exact significance

(01:07:07):
of why they had children go and pull a guy from a pond. But because they're evil. Yeah. Is your
good deal. I will say though, I wanted to read this and this is a quote when she tells them that
she's taking them to California. She says, we have a saying among black Americans, which describes
Momma's caution. If you ask an Negro where he's been, he'll tell you where he's going to understand

(01:07:29):
this important information. It is necessary to know who uses this tactic and on whom it works.
If an unaware person is told a part of the truth, it is imperative that the answer embody truth.
He is satisfied that his query has been answered. If an aware person, one who himself uses the
stratagem is given an answer, though, which is truthful, but bears only slightly if at all in
the question. He knows that the information he seeks is of a private nature and will not be

(01:07:53):
handed to him willingly. Thus direct denial lying in the revelation of personal affairs are avoided.
That was like such a I felt like a random quote in there before telling us they're going to
California. And it like to me kind of became like relevant later in the story, but even like
not fully like I feel like that might be explored later on in the other books, maybe two.

(01:08:17):
But it was it felt a little bit of like a random quote, but I liked it. I like that.
That sort of distinction. Well, I have to say whenever I do get to San Francisco area,
their mom ends up marrying who they call daddy Clyde L. I believe this whole we pronounce it,
but he's like supposedly a successful businessman and it seemed like he ran schemes is what my

(01:08:43):
summary of what she described was. If he wasn't a con man, he hung out with con man. Yeah. Yeah.
That's for sure. There's another quote that I want to read that her mom says got me really tickled
before we get into daddy Clyde and his con men friends. So it says with all her joeility and
joe joe little I can't even say that word Vivian Baxter had no mercy. There was a saying in Oakland

(01:09:08):
at the time, which if she didn't say it herself explained her attitude. The saying was sympathy is
next to shit in the dictionary and I can't even read her temper had not just minute diminished
with the passing of time and when a passionate nature is not eased with moments of compassion,
melodrama is likely to take the stage in each outburst of anger. My mother was fair. She had
the importality of nature with the same lack of indulgence or clemency. I thought that was so funny

(01:09:33):
to like set us up for like this image of her mom, especially because like I said earlier to an episode,
the difference in her mom in San Francisco versus her mom in St. Louis was like two different people.
Yes. And so but that saying is so funny and like I need to like put that on a piece of art and hang
it up in my house or something. I love that. But anyways, yeah, she marries daddy Clyde

(01:09:57):
over and over. Yeah, I was absolutely is at least friends with con men if he's not a con man himself.
Yeah, I was a little nervous that like, because oftentimes whenever, especially somebody so young
is sexually abused, it ends up happening again and again with men in their life and they were
talking about how like close she was becoming with him and things like that. I was getting a

(01:10:18):
little nervous that it may happen again. I'm glad to learn that it didn't at least in this
context. I agree. But he does teach her some like card tricks and some like different kind of tricks
of the trade, I guess you can say, but he basically refers himself as a successful businessman without
any formal education. And so Maya kind of appreciates, you know, his humility and

(01:10:43):
entrepreneurial spirit that he has. But she basically, we also get the perspective of how
based on races and who commits that crime, how the law is interpreted. She talks about how
basically, you know, if a Hispanic person commits a crime with their kind of crime would

(01:11:04):
result with the interpretation of the law or white person or a black on black crime or a white on
black crime or black on white crime, like all of it was different as she described it. And as we
know, still in some places to this day is still the case. It was she talks about how it was just
basically not streamlined across the board. So we also get Bailey senior back into the kind of the

(01:11:28):
picture. He starts talking about how successful he is and things like that. She ends up going to
stay with him for a little bit. And she's been imagining he lives in this magnificent mansion
and you know, it's something fantastic. We ended up finding out that he actually lives in a trailer
park on the outskirts of town. And he has a girlfriend named Dolores that absolutely hates Maya's

(01:11:49):
guts just for existing. But kind of one thing leads to another, they end up going to the border,
which sounds kind of like her dad was transporting illegal items back and forth across the border.
And he was also crossing the border basically to have an affair. And it was a lot because there was
also the scene where the guard at the crossing where he basically like offers his 15 year old

(01:12:12):
daughter up in the garden was like, Oh, you know, that we would have plenty of babies. Like it was
it was real weird. I got real concerned at that point. Yeah, to me, the dad just seemed like a
piece of junk. I mean, to sit there and even make that kind of joke is just honestly disgusting.
So it is I hearted the agree and I thought, Oh my gosh, if he takes her down here and she gets

(01:12:35):
sexually assaulted again, or he like sells her or something like that. Yeah. And she even has a panic
moment where she thinks that her dad left her at the bar and she thinks that guy's gonna sneak up
and come for her or whatever. But then her dad gets massively drunk. She ends up having to drive
across the border and ends up in an accident. And he somehow talks them out of doing anything

(01:12:57):
about it. It was so strange. Such a weird interaction. And I definitely wouldn't say it was a daddy
daughter bonding trip by any means. Real weird. No, I probably wouldn't go back to Mexico after
that. Absolutely not. Like I'm on a watch list somewhere home. All of a sudden Dolores like
starts calling her mama horror and like slaps her and then Maya like slaps her back and there was

(01:13:23):
just like some kind of struggle and then all of a sudden Dolores has got a hammer and running after
Maya is crazy. I don't know. It was an intense two chapters. I was just like, I don't know what's
happening. But then all of a sudden like, her dad doesn't want to take her to the hospital and takes
her to some like weird house and like to get stitched up. Then takes her to another weird
house to stay on her own. Yeah. Well, nobody's living there too. It was creepy. I didn't like it.

(01:13:49):
Other than like then she ends up in the junkyard for a month or whatever. And she learns things
about herself there that we don't really explore anyways, but she just mentions it. I didn't really
see the point of that other than us getting like closure that like clearly her dad's not doing any
better. Yeah, but it was a little strange and I just kept thinking, please go back to your mother.
Yeah, dad is obviously not a parent. And his girlfriend should catch his hands. Well, I know

(01:14:15):
loads of know whether or not they actually stayed together or not. That girlfriend and
Bailey. No, I think she says he married someone else. Okay. Yeah, it would just be interesting to
know. But my thing is, is was nobody worried about where she was? I mean, because it just seems like
she basically calls up her mom and then all of a sudden they happily ever after back together,

(01:14:37):
you know, in California. I don't know. It was strange. I don't know. And it just made me feel
more sad for her just like that. I agree. It just didn't seem like anybody cared to actually look at
her and be like, Hey, there's a problem. We need to like address it kind of thing. I agree. It seemed

(01:14:57):
like everybody else was too preoccupied with their own problems. Yeah. And then Bailey starts like
hanging out with prostitute. I don't know. And then he like goes to get a job on the railroad and
leaves her. And so like Maya feels like super lonely, but then she's bound and determined to get
on at a railroad company. But then her mom encourages her to skip school to go work at the

(01:15:20):
railroad company. I don't know. It was weird. That's a great question. I don't know. It was very
strange. I think that kind of hints at the way that black children had to grow up. Yeah, very quickly.
They experienced things they never should have experienced. And so they lost their innocence

(01:15:41):
and their, you know, their nativity with the world very early on. I think that kind of hints at that
to be quite frank. And I'm not talking about Maya's mother at all. But once they got to San Francisco,
there were things where the school still treated her differently and applying for the job so treated
her differently and things like that. But there were ways that I didn't think like going to her

(01:16:03):
dad's for the summer, her mom not checking up on her and stuff like like this man's never been dad.
So like I would have been concerned. But I guess she also lived separate from her for so long when
she lived with grandma, dad's mom, who's obviously capable. So maybe she just assumed dad was too.
But I don't know. I feel like maybe dad lied. Maybe dad was like, yeah, she's here doing well.

(01:16:26):
Maybe dad never told mom that she lived. I don't know. But it just seemed so irresponsible.
Mom never really was like mom to her either. So maybe she was like trying to just pass her off for
the, you know, the summer to go hang out with dad or something along that line. So that way she could
go back to, you know, gallivanting the world like she was kind of thing. Well, yes, but no, I mean,

(01:16:50):
there were moments in San Francisco where she was like mom. Yeah, I will say in St. Louis,
we don't get that at all. Now, whether that's because just what part of the story was told,
we don't see it. I don't know. Yeah, but she definitely seemed like two different women from
St. Louis San Francisco. And I know I've said that several times, but like, I agree. She actually
seemed like a mom and like cared about him in San Francisco. So I just, I don't know. It was a little

(01:17:12):
strange for me to like that she does end up gallivanting and like mom never knows about it.
Who knows if mom even knew before she died, you know, kind of thing. I don't know. And then like
nobody talks to her about sex after everything that's happened to her. No one has a conversation
with her and she ends up sleeping with that boy and getting pregnant at 16. And that's obviously
not in her best interest on anybody's best interest. So one little conversation might have helped us

(01:17:38):
avoid that. You know what I'm saying? Like it just seemed like there were ways.
Again, I don't want to talk about her mom, but I feel like there were ways that we could have
protected her a little bit more. I think they, I don't want to say failed her, but I think they
could have done a little bit better in some areas. I agree. And I think they all had intentions of like,

(01:18:00):
I don't want to say passing them off, but basically putting them in a situation that may
have been best for them at that time. But at the same time, been doing that, it was almost just
like passing them off back and on to each other almost like they were a burden instead of allowing
them to be the children that they were. Because honestly, they're not going to have consistent
parenting. They're not going to have consistent rules to follow. They're not going to have consistent,

(01:18:23):
you know, don't do this, yes, do this, but then somebody else is saying, but you can do this.
That this other person told you you can do, you know what I mean?
That's like dad taking her to Mexico. Yeah. Mama in Arkansas, mama and grandma never would have
allowed that. Yeah. They said, are you crazy? Yeah. You know, but like, I don't know. But I still

(01:18:43):
felt like, and I don't blame her actual mother for what happened in St. Louis. You can't, you don't
know those things until they happen, obviously. And when it did happen, she took full responsibility
and took care of her and got them out and whatever else. So I don't blame her for that. But I just
feel like there were other ways that we could have, but I feel a little bit more, I do understand

(01:19:03):
though, like not wanting to coddle your children, especially black children in this day and age,
because the world is so hard and ruffling them already. But at the same time, like,
still feel like there were ways we could have maybe called it a little bit better.
So at least at home, they knew, you know, I don't know. I think a lot of like,

(01:19:24):
basically something happens, we just ignore it and don't talk about it is kind of how they all
live their lives. Because every day you'd be talking about something else. I'm sure. Yeah.
But I think all of that together, like just not talking about the main main problems. I mean,
she knew later on that like the Ku Klux Klan were a thing and she knew later on that she'd

(01:19:44):
been sexually assaulted and stuff like that. But I mean, in the moments, none of that was
presented to her. So she, you know, had all those internal feelings that she was the problem
for so long because of all of that. So yeah, I just keep coming back to dad, making that comment
about her at the guard booth that like there was nothing he could do after that to make up for it,

(01:20:06):
to even make that joke. After knowing that she's been sexually assaulted.
Yeah, absolutely not. Yeah.
When also leaving her vulnerable in a foreign country, basically, while you're passed out drunk.
Where she doesn't speak the language. She has no idea how to drive.

(01:20:28):
They could have been giving her alcohol for all you would have known.
Yeah. Yeah, no, I was like, he got to go.
I like him. Okay, so I want to end on this quote.
To be left alone on the tightrope of youthful unknowing is to experience the excruciating
beauty of full freedom and the threat of eternal indecision. Few, if any, survive their teens.

(01:20:52):
Most surrender to the vague but murderous pressure of adult conformity. It becomes easier to die and
avoid conflicts than to maintain a constant battle with the superior forces of maturity.
Until recently, each generation found it more expedient to plead guilty to the charge of being
young and ignorant, easier to take the punishment meted out by the older generation, which had
itself confessed to the same crime short years before. The command to grow up at once was more

(01:21:17):
bearable than the faceless horror of wavering purpose, which was youth. The bright hours when
the young rebelled against the descending sun had to give way to 24 hour periods called days
that were named as well as numbered. The black female is assaulted in her tender years by all
those common forces of nature at the same time that she is caught in the trapartite crossfire of

(01:21:38):
masculine prejudice, white illogical hate, and black lack of power. The fact that the adult
American Negro female emerges a formidable character is often met with amazement, distaste,
and even belligerence. It is seldom accepted as an inevitable outcome of the struggle won by
survivors and deserves respect if not enthusiastic acceptance. There were a lot of great quotes

(01:22:00):
in this book, but that is one of my favorite and I think a great way to end this.
So what is your final thoughts and ratings? So I think I said this with Jeanette's book, but
I personally just feel like I have to give this book a five. I cannot read through someone

(01:22:22):
else's struggle, it's particularly bad struggle, and not be, I'm gonna get emotional, I'm not gonna
do this, hang on, and not be moved and not want to learn more about it and not, especially from
her perspective. And again, we said this with Jeanette's book too. The audiobook is read by

(01:22:42):
Maya and it is such an intimate experience to listen to her tell her story. So I highly, highly
recommend that. But yeah, I would absolutely give it a five. There were some parts that I don't
fully see the full meaning of them because I haven't read the rest of the books, so maybe that would
help me do that. But I still have to give it a five because just each step of the way and knowing

(01:23:04):
that this probably isn't in the full extent even of the trauma that she experienced because this
is a little bitty book. And I mean, she had years and years day by day what happened. So
that's mine. What is yours? So my ranking system search for three goes up and down from there. I
would say for me, it was probably like a 4.5, maybe 4.6. I thought there was a quite a bit of scenes

(01:23:29):
that I found irrelevant to kind of the conversation. Obviously, she found it relevant. So like,
obviously, she felt like it impacted her story. And it may, to be honest, a lot of that may impact
future autobiographies that she wrote, you know, more current ones. But to me, in this context,
there was quite a few chapters that we probably could have done without, you know, as far as

(01:23:49):
significant wise, however, there was really good written scenes for the chapters that were significant,
that displayed both not only herself, but her family, her race, all of their stories and kind of,
you know, what they went through during this time period and things like that. I mean, it was
hugely impactful, I think, you know, to read from her perspective, kind of a firsthand account of

(01:24:12):
what all she experienced. But I do think that there was several places that it could have
been wrote a little bit different or, you know, changed up or whatever. But it was super engaging
and super impactful. Yeah, I hardly agree. So if you liked this episode or any of our other
episodes, please subscribe to get access to bonus episodes randomly throughout each month,

(01:24:37):
or on the fifth Friday, if there is one, we also have extra content, community chat and more on
Patreon. You can also find our free episodes on the first and third Fridays on any podcasting platform.
You can also send us book suggestions, comments or general inquiries to our email at like, we
read them at carlmpodcast.com. You can also subscribe now on Patreon to get our monthly

(01:24:59):
newsletter. You can also join us on Fable, Facebook, TikTok and Instagram for more engagement from
us and the latest news. Carl, do you want to let us know what our next read is? Actually, I'll be
announcing two. So our next bonus episode comes out January 31st, and it is a recap of Iron Flame
and Fourth Wing. It will probably mainly be talking about like fan theories and what we thought then,

(01:25:22):
what we think now, but that sort of was like a preparation for our next episode, which will be
February 7th, and it will be Onyx Storm by Rebecca Yarrows. I'm going to hold up a picture of the
book because obviously I don't have the real thing in front of me. And the blurb for that book...
There's multiple versions of the blurbs. I'm reading Amazon's. Okay, so after nearly 18 months at

(01:25:48):
Bezgyath War College, Violet Sorengeal knows there's no time for lessons, no more time for uncertainty,
because the battle has truly begun, and with enemies closing in from outside their walls and
within their ranks, it's impossible to know who to trust. Now Violet must journey beyond the failing
Parisian wards... Yeah, okay. To seek allies from unfamiliar lands to stand with Navarre. The

(01:26:12):
trip will test every bit of her wit, luck, and strength, but she will do anything to save what
she loves. Her dragons, her family, her home, and him. Even if it means keeping a secret so big,
it could destroy anything. They need an army, they need power, they need magic, and they need the
one thing only Violet can find, the truth. But a storm is coming and not everyone can survive its wrath.

(01:26:38):
That'll be the first time I've actually fully read that and like...
I don't want to know who dies. I'm shook. Unless it's Jack, I don't want to know who dies.
Oh, and it won't be Jack, unfortunately. I know.
Oh, okay. Well, so we appreciate you tuning into this episode. We can't wait to hear your thoughts
on it and we hope that you will tune into our next episodes and subscribe on Patreon.

(01:27:00):
Don't forget you can join us over on Fable to discuss each book as we read it. And as always,
we promise to Carl and Macri read them. Do so.

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