Fan Theories for Fourth Wing and Iron Flame

Join Karl and Em as they dive into fan theories on Fourth Wing and Iron Flame by Rebecca Yarros. We can't wait to dive in and discuss which of the theories we find valid and ones we discredit. We will always Karl 'Em Like We Read Them. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok for extra content and book announcements. We'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments. This episode will contain spoilers. We promise to give you all of our honest opinions and we mean no harm to any of the authors.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello everyone. I'm Carl. And I'm Im. Welcome to our podcast discussing all of the latest

(00:18):
books. This is our fourth episode and we will be discussing fan theories for Fourth Wing
and Iron Flame by Rebecca Yaros. We promise to give you all of our honest opinions
on all the characters, chapters, and scenarios. We don't mean any harm to any of the authors.
This is solely our opinion. We promise to Carl them like we read them. Period. I nailed it

(00:41):
that time. So I'm going to do is throughout some theories that I have found on TikTok
or that have been sent in by our readers. We will be going through them and talking
about what we think about those theories. We're going to reference page numbers that
may support or disprove the different theories that we have. And if you guys have any more,

(01:03):
feel free to put them in the comments. We'd love to hear them. And in the future, whenever
the third book comes out, we do our book review on that, we will gladly re approach those
at that point. So the first thing that I want to talk about is who may be Venon and who
may not be Venon because there's a lot of theories out there. The top three that I have

(01:28):
found is that Violet's may be some parts Venon possible Venon Venon heritage something along
that lines or Violet's mom was Venon or Violet's dad could possibly be Venon. Actually, there's
four theories because Zaden's father or mother may also be Venon as well, which we don't

(01:49):
know a lot about them. So I'm going to group them together because we don't know much about
them yet. The main reason why I think Violet's mom is Venon is there is a story in fourth
wing. Whenever they're going through the walk through with the dragons, they are talking
about Violet's mom. It's like window shopping. The dragons are sniffing the people. It's

(02:17):
weird. Violet is telling a story and she says on page 150 of fourth wing, he did, but it
was after my mom had a really long night while we were stationed near the Eastern border
and her eyes were bloodshot red. So I freaked out and started shrieking. I can't help but
smile at the memory. She took my book of fables away for a month because the outpost guards

(02:37):
all came running and I was hiding behind my brother who couldn't stop laughing. It references
that bloodshot eyes that makes me think it's a possibility because they also talk about
how on page three in fourth wing as well. It's not the first time I've heard her curse
the sickness that nearly killed her while she was pregnant with me or the library dad

(02:59):
main second home once she's been stationed here. So again, referencing that she'd been
really sick. So the biggest part that connects the dots is Violet's hair because when the
venin's drain the grounds, every bit of life and color come out of it and they reference
that no matter how short she cuts her hair, it always stays silver at the bottom. So that's

(03:25):
what I think about that theory and my supporting evidence on it. Do you have an idea or a
thought on it? We discussed it a little bit. To me, for Violet to end up the way she did,
her mom would have had to have drained her in the womb in my opinion. I don't believe
that Violet would have resulted in being weaker if her mom was draining other people. If her

(03:48):
mom was been in, I feel like there would be more hints, first of all, but also there might
have been more with the dad if that was the case. And I do think dad's research is going
to come back. We talked about this, but I just don't think there's much else is going
to happen about dad. And I think he would have to be much more involved if mom ended
up being venin. My biggest thing is on the top of page 620 in Zaden's chapter, there

(04:11):
is a missive from Lieutenant Colonel Nolan Bursey, I believe it sounds pronounced, to
general Lilith Sorengale. We have tried every method we know of as you requested, there
is no cure. There is only control. And so that's an iron flame, right? Yes, an iron
flame. And so to me, that almost reads that somebody she loves because there is also at

(04:33):
the top of the excerpt of the chapter, which I think we went over in the last episode about
how the only thing she cares about is protecting her children. And so with all of that, and
it's like the chapter right before this one too, that's referenced at the top of the page.
So there's a rhyme and a reason to everything. And I feel like there is a possibility not
that that Violet's mom may have been complete venin, but she may have been in the early

(04:58):
stages like we talked about with venin hood. And it kind of passed through to Violet. And
she was actually draining her mom or maybe Violet because of her sickness, she was actually
needing more to be able to survive. And so Violet's mom took to siphoning the earth to
be able to keep Violet alive. So when I read the, it gets me every time. It's like, you

(05:23):
know me, my love. I love that quote. They're getting the chapter, even though mom does
that chapter, I love that it was recovered to correspond to her dad. And I really hope
we do get to see more of that dynamic from her parents or Zagan's parents in general.
I want to know the history and their stories, but I don't know. To me, it just doesn't make
sense for her to be venin. That doesn't mean she's not going to be venin. She very well

(05:43):
could be, but I'm not sure that I want her to be venin. I feel like if she ends up being
venin, then the, it's not, I'm just not gonna, it's not gonna make sense because if she was
venin, again, you would think there would have been other signs. She was soft. We don't
see a whole lot of softness, but she was soft at times. And I keep coming back to the comment

(06:07):
about, you know, me, my love and the love of my life as a scribe. That is not at all.
Those emotions of the other venin. Also, I need the venin process better explained. I
don't think from what we've learned in these two books that we really fully understand
the process yet. I don't believe that once you've crossed that line, once you've started
the process, I don't believe you have control over it enough to last 21 years and not transform.

(06:32):
I don't think that's possible because nature demands balance and they have this uncontrollable
urge for more power and to serve their master. So I don't know. The venin process seems different.
My head, the venin thing just made sense because again, I don't think Rebecca puts things in
here for no reason. And so like to, to point out her bloodshot red eyes to me that, which

(06:54):
I had to go back and reread it. It doesn't quite make sense why she would mention the
blood cause every time that somebody is referenced in the venin, for instance, whenever Jack
is referenced, miss it the first time around. But once we find out that he is venin, we
go back to it and it mentions the bloodshot red eyes. And then whenever Zaden at the ends

(07:15):
of iron flame ends up venin, we see the bloodshot red eyes. So I feel like there is the way
that I remember it being described was more like veins, red veins rather than bloodshot.
The veins don't, I don't think come along until the second level of venin hood because
it actually says indistinguishable red ring emanating around his gold flecked onyx irises

(07:39):
on Zaden's parts and then on Jack's. It does actually mention just a red rim around his
eyes, but I just,
You're right though, but it does talk about, I don't know if it's the second level or sage,
but it does talk about red veins in one of the levels. So that's why I wondered what
language was used.
I just don't feel like she would mention that descriptive words without a rhyme or reason

(08:02):
to it because it just doesn't make any sense to me. But I mean, maybe it will eventually,
but I also, the correspondence with Nolan, if she's been trying so hard to keep it a
secret, why is she trying to find a cure unless somebody she love or herself is in that role?
So it makes more sense to me that her dad would be venin. The whole his heart gave out

(08:24):
thing. I'm not sure I believe that. And if it is what happened, then I need more explanation
of how his heart just gave out all of a sudden. But it was a scrub. So it's not like he was
in danger situations. You know, he was chilling, but
Can a scribe, can they become a venom? Oh, that's a good point.
Because you get the power from your dragon and it's almost like you become a siphon from

(08:47):
your dragon and then you can siphon the earth.
Yeah, but what about Griffin riders?
But they don't mention a Griffin rider becomes venin at all.
But the griffins even say they get their powers from their griffins and not only that, but
they also talk about how the venin create all the the wyvern and they ride the wyvern
and to me that the whole entire time I just picture them all as dragon riders because

(09:10):
I don't remember ever reading anything about that.
Well, I keep coming back to the fact that if they are dragon riders, when they turn
venin, how come they don't drain their dragons? Do you have to have that power from a dragon
in order to be able to pull from the ground? That I guess is the question that is left
unanswered whether or not a scribe could become it.

(09:32):
But also, if it's not dad, then I don't think, again, I could be totally wrong.
I'm not leaning towards that mom is venin though.
However, what I will lean towards is mom and other management, including Nolan, have been
doing this for years, experimenting for years.
And I think that because the secret was so close to getting out, I think it's going

(09:55):
to work for a cure because they think, and again, Nolan does not say there's no cure.
There's only death.
He says there's only control, which makes that obviously to me, to me, that hinted at
they either may be controlling the venin in some sort of way or someone up high is controlling

(10:18):
the venin or that they've been experimenting on how to control the venin.
That's where I took it.
And I took it also like that it was going to set up Zaden storyline as a venin.
I didn't take it as mom was researching it for herself or for her loved one.
I took it as she was just a part of it with authority, with management doing those actions.

(10:39):
Well, there is an excerpt at the beginning of Iron Flame at 496.
This is the art of imbuning comes naturally to only a handful of signets and automatically
only to one the siphon.
So to me, I feel like that was just placed there a little weird.
Again, I just especially with the signets, we only know dragon riders have them.

(11:00):
Yes, so maybe scribes camp.
So dad's not probably.
So then was dad killed by a venin?
What make his heart give out?
Dad could be killed by anybody.
Maybe dad was the one that was trying to push for everybody to relay the secrets about the
venins.
And so he ended up getting killed off.
That's what Violet's mom said is that she didn't want her to go into the scribe quadrant

(11:21):
because she was afraid that she would be killed for trying to right the wrong.
So maybe her dad was killed and she was took that as a lesson to get Violet into the dragon
right here.
Maybe quadrant.
So that was she didn't get killed off too.
Maybe.
I definitely am wholeheartedly convinced that they've been doing experiments all this time
though and experimenting with how to try to control them because why else would you create

(11:44):
a serum that cuts you off from your power and your dragon?
Why else would you do that?
How would you risk your enemy getting hands on that?
100%.
And the only thing that really threw me off too is that there was a spot H6 of iron flame
that was referenced.
She said when she describes Brennan talking to Shuri, which is one of the people in the

(12:05):
council, she says glancing at a wide-shouldered brunette with olive skin and a single streak
of silver in her hair, her nose switching like a fox sitting next to him.
I feel that's also a descriptive word because I mean a single streak of silver hair was
weird to me, but I don't know if that was connecting of oh, I have silver, she has silver.

(12:26):
Say it, I read it as like she's just aging.
Maybe.
You're right.
She does mention things like that and silver instead of gray.
Yes.
And I don't see it as just a hair you can see in somebody else's hair.
I'm thinking the whole highlight of silver, but again, I feel the descriptive word of
silver, like you said, is definitely like one that sets it apart.

(12:48):
But then again, if somebody else had silver, then wouldn't it take away from Violet's
uniqueness?
And the whole silver thing, a lot with Violet, was related to her signet, or so we think,
I guess.
I do think that Reca did a really good job of laying the foundation for her first signet,

(13:09):
really good descriptive words, really good hints.
And that's why I think that these are, this is a possibility just because of all the descriptive
words that kind of come back to it.
Right.
I mean, this is honestly the one theory besides her signets that I have the most references
that could be a possibility kind of thing.
The other thing is too, is Violet's dad being a sage or a general is a possibility, but

(13:33):
theory of maybe scribes can't be because I do not remember a single reference of somebody
having that description of a scribe.
Remember they're saying they're on the back of a wavering.
To me, that's dragonrider.
They don't all ride though.
Do they?
The only ones that I remember reference not as the sage, but I just feel that he does
that as a power move.
I don't need the wavering to.

(13:53):
Well, like that one, there's a woman that drains the ground and that's how Solil does.
But I don't remember if she was ever riding a wavering.
I know that when they killed her, a lot of wavering fell.
Correct.
That just means she created the wavering.
That means she rode one, but I guess you would have to ride one at some point.

(14:15):
Get there.
Get there.
So I don't know.
But then again, maybe you do become a different person and maybe your power connects you to
that wavering and allows you to ride differently than you do on a drive.
You know what I mean?
The wavering that I've read in other books, it's very different.
I mean, not very different, but it's a little different.

(14:35):
So it's hard for me because I don't know exactly how these wavering are.
In other books, it would be similar to how the dragon riders had to actually stay on
and be capable and stuff.
But I don't know.
It's a good point that maybe scribes can't.
You would think they could though, if they do have some sort of powers that they would
be able to, at least some of them would be able to potentially turn.
But maybe not.
But then even for argument's sake though, then that can mean infantry and that can mean

(14:58):
the healers could become.
Oh, wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Nolan is not a rider.
Nolan is a healer.
He's a mender.
So he has a signet and he's not a dragon rider?
No, there was some kind of reference about something differentiating Nolan's signet.
Isn't it differentiating a mender and a healer?
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Right.

(15:19):
But if he's a healer, he physically, he mended though too.
Nolan mended.
Because he says it's hard work mending a soul.
Or maybe Nolan was a dragon rider and he got recruited to help them with the Venom project
and move to the healer squadron.
I don't think you can switch squadrons though, can you?
If you're in with the leadership, you probably can.

(15:40):
Yeah, but he wouldn't be considered a healer.
He'd be considered a rider.
I don't know that.
But to the public who they're keeping the secret from, he could be the healer.
But then actually he's a mender.
Because I mean, they're not going to say, hey, this dude that's a dragon rider, we're
going to move over to here.
They're going to do that as secretly as possible.

(16:01):
So that way no red flags pop up and questions of why.
I didn't get the vibe that he's ever been a rider.
He's been mending her for years.
So if he had switched, it would have been a long, long time ago.
Where's his dragon then?
Probably in the veil.
I mean, there's unbonded dragons.
They mentioned that less and less dragons are bonding in the veil.
So I mean, it's a possibility that they're just hanging out there.

(16:24):
I don't think maybe there's more that we're going to learn about the other quadrant that
we just haven't learned yet.
It's a possibility.
Because, okay, somebody had to ward the archer.
I don't know.
I don't know.
That'll be interesting to see how that plays out and how she writes it.
Well, and the other thing is too, is the other theory that kind of has been floating around

(16:45):
because there is an interview that Rebecca did, as she mentions that we're going to find
out more about Zaden's mom.
To me, the most confusing part was that the entire series basically, the Venn is like,
oh, Lightning Welder, Lightning Welder, we have to capture the Lightning Welder live.
We have Taker, but then all of a sudden in the last one, Zaden's like, no, they're coming

(17:05):
for me.
So I personally think that that was the case because they were trying to capture Violet
because they knew that Zaden would sacrifice everything in turn Vennan for Violet and he's
more powerful than she is.
So that's my thought process in that.
And I think they want Zaden possibly because his mom is Vennan or in with the Vennan because

(17:27):
for that whole dreams and the scenes and all that kind of stuff to be happening, I feel
like there's a little bit more, something we're missing than just we want Zaden just
because he can shield the shadows kind of thing.
See, and I read it as the general or whatever is after both of them.
Okay.

(17:48):
Instead of just one or the other because they did say they talked about they want the Lightning
Welder, but then basically only in the dreams and then at the very end, we kind of find
out that they want Zaden.
Well, but we don't get Zaden's point of view.
And I think that's something that Zaden didn't share with Violet.
So Violet wouldn't have had those thoughts.
Yeah.

(18:08):
You see what I'm saying?
And when she, every time she faced the Vennan, it was just her.
Zaden wasn't there.
I mean, he was there at some point, but he wasn't right there with her battling that
Vennan for the Vennan to be like, Oh, it's a two for one special or something like that.
You know what I mean?
It was her.
Special.
That's what I want to say.
Two birds, one stone, you know what I'm saying?

(18:30):
But that never happened.
It was just her.
Every time she faced him, he was all fighting someone else.
So yeah, that's what I would think is probably just because we only got her point of view.
But then to be having the same dreams and they, it is legit, the same dream and almost
exactly what happens.
I'm wondering if it wasn't a dream.
I'm wondering if it was more of like a vision.

(18:53):
I mean, what if what if her signal is visions and she was putting it in Zaden's head?
Maybe.
I don't know.
See, here's the problem with fan theories.
Anything is possible at this point.
We're only two books in.
Yeah.
I mean, nobody is saying you'd all be leaning towards one way and then at the very end she

(19:14):
throws in and I don't know if it's going to be in our other episodes.
If it is, I'm going to read myself, but it's going to all be a dream for all we know.
It could be fake, somebody could be an insane asylum.
I don't know.
Or maybe Violet fell off the parapet and survives and knocked her head or something and this
is all been her imagination the whole time.
She's been in a coma the whole time.
But then the other theory about who has been in is Nate Olin, which is Taren's first writer.

(19:40):
And this one, I do believe it is a possibility.
And this is why.
Taren is bonded with Segeal, which was Zaden's dragon, however, Naila.
I don't think past tense is.
Don't do that to him.
It's a possibility.
So with Brennan's dragon, it's not bonded to Taren.

(20:02):
So Nailan tried everything to save Brennan, which I mean, we find out he's successful.
But to me, he has been in love with him or something for him to sacrifice himself like
to that point to save Brennan.
Well, what convinced me is when Brennan says it took everything.

(20:23):
Yeah.
But everything for me, he not only probably drained himself, but he drained, you know,
the earth or whatever else it was.
I would even take a gander that he attempted to drain Taren.
Yeah.
And that's why Taren almost died and Taren was all those years recovering is what I would
guess.
Yeah.

(20:43):
And honestly, I think that in which please listen to the next part is talking about whether
or not the dragon stays bonded when they turn venom.
Yeah.
Because to me, I think it's a possibility that Nailan turned venom after he attempted
to save Brennan and Taren broke the bond and decided to rebond in the future.
And that maybe another reason why Taren was so depressed and basically like hiding away

(21:07):
is because he knew that Nailan was still alive and he wasn't able to save him or do anything
for him.
And that may be why Segele was even more heartbroken when Zaden turned because we have Taren.
Yeah.
So I read that as and because where it talks about at the end where Zaden says that she

(21:27):
won't speak to him, you kind of read it as maybe the bonds being severed or starting
to tether and I read it more as she's just giving him the silent treatment.
I read it as the bond still intact at this point.
But it is interesting to try to ascertain if the bond is still there once they're been
in, how long it lasts, when does it break, can they drain the dragons is that a possibility?

(21:49):
I mean, because the alternative would be the dragon would have to cleave the bond if it
doesn't break automatically.
And then to do that, I mean, almost killed Taren with Nailan, so does it almost kill
all of them?
Does it kill some of them?
You know what I'm saying?
It's going to be a very detailed dynamic if that's the way she goes and it doesn't just

(22:09):
break automatically.
Well, and two other things that make me think that it's a possibility it breaks and or maybe
some of them still keep that.
I also think it has to do with the level of venenhood that maybe they're in that that
is a possibility of where they break or they choose to break it.
And the two things that back that up for me is whenever it said a couple of times that

(22:32):
less and less dragons are willing to bond every year.
And my thought is the reason why less and less are willing to bond is because maybe
they're still connected to their original riders.
And so either they're going through the devastation of the loss or they're not broke the bond
yet or whatever the case may be.
But also whenever we get to that final scene where Jack kills Bade over the word.

(22:58):
Why didn't Jack die?
Did they sever the bonds?
And so Jack didn't die whenever his dragon died.
But then again, why did Bade sacrifice himself for the bond still wasn't there?
And I mean, Bade also rebonded.
So there was another cadet that rebonded with Bade.
So did Jack kill that cadet in order to bond again?

(23:20):
With Bade or did the bond never fully sever or how does it work?
And then if that's the case, if the bond never fully severed, but he was able to rebond with
the female, does that mean they can bond more than one rider?
I mean, again, dragons keep too many secrets, which honestly, I believe it's shady little
things.
Yeah.

(23:41):
And Taryn mentions it in there that dragons keep more secrets.
Oh, absolutely.
He does.
I think he knows way more than he's letting on.
And I think Ann Darnardus too.
And they may be bound by like some secret form of the veil or yeah, well, the dragons
do not answer humans.
Yeah.
So there's going to be something about that at some point that there is some sort of way
to control them.

(24:01):
There is some sort of mechanism.
I think.
Okay.
So that actually that makes perfect sense.
If dragons don't answer to the humans, but Jack is no longer human.
He's then in.
So maybe that's why Bade answered to him.
Maybe.
But if that's the case, then what level of Vennan do you have to be?

(24:21):
How long does it have to be established?
Because he really didn't even get a chance to form the bond with Bade before he died.
It was literally like 24 hours, I think.
And then on top of that, if that is the case, then how are the dragons able to sever the
bond on their own if they have to answer to the Vennan?
And another thing that we're going to go into spiral.
So that he controls his dragon and we think that he may possibly be involved in the Vennan

(24:45):
or something like that.
Yeah, we think that, but there were no red rims or anything.
I think he might have just been a jerk.
We just don't like him.
He has to be bad because he was bad, you know, can't just be a bad human.
We have to find some sort of reason.
But also I think it's interesting that they say multiple times to that they do have all
these secrets and that they use the word tolerate too many times for me not to have

(25:08):
picked it up, but they tolerate the humans.
They allow them to live essentially, but they don't really care for them.
Which is so interesting getting to see the dynamic between Violet and Taren and Violet
and Endarna and how can you say you don't care for them?
So I don't know if that's like an egotistical thing.
If Taren's just way too overconfident in that, or if it's a safety mechanism, like if we

(25:31):
make you think that we don't actually show you affection that maybe you won't realize
you actually can take advantage of us.
You know what I mean?
I don't know, but there's going to be something that happens.
I took that as, I mean, Taren comes off as that annoyed older brother.
I personally took the statement of tolerated as like, I'm just tolerating being in your
present kind of situation.

(25:51):
Because I mean, he does say somewhere something along the lines of you are prized annoyance.
And so I just took tolerated as annoying.
Of course, I got to be stuck with you kind of thing.
So well, and he says it multiple times like between him and her, but he also says it in
general about the species.
And that's what I kept coming back to was the secretive, the essentially we don't really

(26:13):
need you.
We just allow you to enjoy this life that you have right now.
But yeah, should something happen, I'm convinced that the dragons have a backup plan for the
veil that should everything go to crap.
Yeah, way too knowledgeable.
So we talked about too that there might be a trip to the aisles in the future because
I've mentioned it so many times.
I think there's going to be a trip to the veil as well.
I think that's going to be a big deal.

(26:33):
I don't think it's going to be everybody gets to go.
So here's my thought on the veil thing violet, maybe in like the last book, her reward for
saving the world basically is she gets let into the dragon secrets.
And I also personally think that her and Justina and eventually maybe team up and create this

(26:53):
is actually what the history is.
So then because she is restoring that balance in the world and everybody knows exactly what's
going on that maybe the dragons are like, okay, we can trust her with our secrets.
So because there is a book in excerpt of the top from a book about dragons.
So I feel that's a possibility because how did that person know that much about the details

(27:15):
of dragons if dragons are so secretive and I mean, Karen and Adana barely tell her anything
about it.
So and she mentions when they mentioned about the tales being a choice or a need, she even
says this is more than most people get because they are so secretive kind of thing.
Yeah.
And even in that scene, he pretty much tells her son of your business.
Yeah.

(27:36):
And the pilot's dad was granted access or untethered access to certain things that most
people wouldn't have been in order to just at least have some sort of account of the
information somewhere.
Feather tales are not out like where everybody can see them and there's like secretive and
Adana is the first one they've seen out and about.
So how was he researching feather tales if he wasn't a part of that whole thing?

(27:59):
Well, I also think it's very interesting that like black dragons are so rare and we find
out, I think it's an iron flame that like two or three of them have hatched this year.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But they're so rare.
So that's me also sends off trigger warnings.
There's something more going on with dragons that I think we're going to find out later.
But it's going to be interesting to see how she does it.

(28:20):
So it could be written from Violet's point of view, but Taren is like sharing memories
or something with her.
I was fixing to say that same thing.
I feel like though it's a possibility because in the scenes that he does share those thoughts
with other dragons, he does make the comment that it's almost too intimate for him to share
with anybody else.

(28:41):
And so I feel like at some point he's going to trust Violet so much.
Here you go kind of thing.
And so I do agree completely with that.
That's a huge possibility of and I don't know if it's related to dragon secrets, but I feel
at some point Taren's going to be like, here's my life story.
Or maybe Neolan.
Maybe that's how he confesses about Neolan.
Yeah.
But you know what though?

(29:02):
I'm telling you this now.
If the next plot and the next plot and the next plot is the fact that somebody's keeping
secrets from Violet, I'm going to freak out.
I'm over.
You will keep your secrets from Violet.
And I'm over her being so emotional about it.
At this point you should just expect it.

(29:23):
Yeah.
I mean, at this point, we all know we all got secrets.
We keep saying we have secrets.
We're going to be have to keep secrets.
So like, let's move on.
Let's move on.
And also the world's ending.
I'm not sure right now is the time to be worried about your trust issues.
The world is literally ending.
Yes, that as well.
You have to kill the love of your life.
I'm not sure you should worry about that you can't trust him.

(29:44):
Obviously, I think there's going to be some sort of storyline as far as, oh, this is a
new secret I'm finding out about.
Because obviously there's so much left to learn.
But I think that making the whole storyline around I'm upset because I just found out
this information is getting a little repetitive at this point.
I would prefer if there are going to be secrets, examples, the dragon secrets, that they're

(30:06):
not secrets that were pertinent to the scenario or he is sworn to secrecy or that there is
something that actually limits him.
But even then like Zaden's second signet, literally only him and his dragon knew and
it could have gotten him killed.
And so that's a pretty big deal.
And so the fact that she takes it so personal, I'm saying bothers me even more.

(30:29):
She never once really expressed a whole lot of discomfort with the fact that he may have
been reading her this entire time.
Instead, she was just mad he didn't tell her.
I was like, what?
The first thing I would have said is how many times have you read?
Have you read me?
Let's say something like that at some point.
He says, I stopped, which we know he didn't really, but he tried to stop.

(30:52):
So our teaching her to shield as soon as he realized he was as bad as Dane.
But that's the first thing that came to my mind was like, well, he's no better than
Dane.
The secrets are going to get on my nerves if they keep happening.
There needs to be a good explanation and violent needs to grow up and realize the world is
full of secrets.
I'm so going to read it.
I got to know what happens.
And I'm still going to love it.
It's fine.

(31:12):
I'll be annoyed at the time I'm reading it and I'll move on because then something else
will happen.
But I'm telling you, if she kills Garrick or if she kills Riannan, I'm done.
Can't do it anymore.
I think Riannan may be a possibility that we have to consider because Liam was made
to the forefront in fourth wing and he was killed off.

(31:33):
And then Riannan was made into the forefront in Iron Flame and she was not killed off,
but she was talked about a heck of a lot more than Riddick or Sawyer or just was a little
bit more mentioned.
But I feel some of those, one of those background characters has to die, especially with them
keep saying and repeating, we're going to make it to graduation.
I just feel like that's foreshadowing completely that there may be something that's going to

(31:54):
happen that causes one of them not to.
Well, and I also think there's the potential that Mira does.
I don't think Britain's going to die simply because we have continued to see him take
more of a research, more of a scrub point of view than we have an actual writer's point
of view.
And because we already had that death scare with Britain, I just don't think it's logistically

(32:19):
going to be him, but I think it's a real possibility that Mira may die at some point.
I kind of agree with you that one of the siblings has to die.
I kind of agree with you that one of the siblings has to die.
Yes, because I mean, it's just too like all of a sudden she's building up their relationship.
It either has to be like a devastating loss with a friend or a devastating loss because
no offense to Lilith, but she wasn't devastation.

(32:41):
Daw lost.
It took me a second to remember who Lilith was because we didn't get that relationship
very much at all.
Yeah, no, maybe it's Mira because I feel like Mira and Lilith were mere image of each other
almost.
But to the rest of my, I don't feel it was like that, oh my God, the whole world has
ended situations.
I agree.
Either Mira is going to die or she's going to become Vinnan.
That's my theory because, and I say that because also we get several quotes and comments

(33:06):
and scenes that are talking about how bad Mira is, how tough, awesome, her great reputation
of all this, of being such a great warrior and yet we really don't see that in any of
the actual fighting scenes or anything.
So I think there's going to be big scene where we finally get to see Mira in action

(33:27):
and I think it's not going to go her way.
But also we did get to see her in the arena, but she really didn't do much, but she did
learn how to shield other people.
So that's interesting, but.
Well, and I do kind of agree that she could possibly become Vinnan and or just a villain
in general, like, just because there is that scene where she disappears for most of the
battle, which I know you say just because she was in a different like area or whatever.

(33:49):
But I feel like she does not mention things without a purpose.
And she mentions about how Mira just all of a sudden shows up when she's like, well, I
don't know where she is.
It just kind of a subconscious thought that I just feel like why make it if she knew that
she was in another quadrant and not only that, but they mentioned almost every other single
person in the battle.

(34:10):
So I don't know if she becomes villain joins General Melgreens team or something along that
lines.
But I feel it's very important for that mention.
And I just don't know why just yet.
But I mean, Vinnan is a good possibility too about her possibly sneaking off to her mom's
office to steal research.
I do think out of all three of them with learning about the Vinnan, I really feel like probably

(34:33):
Brennan felt more at the beginning of a six year disappearance that he did at the now
on this present point in the book.
But I do think Mira felt that betrayal by her mother more deeply than the rest of them
did.
So maybe that's a possibility that that's that's what happens there.
But I'm not quite sure just yet.

(34:53):
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it develops and what it does turn into.
I also think she does mention everybody else in the financing.
And it's interesting that she specifically does that.
And it was also interesting to me how justina just showed up the perfect timing and then
just disappeared.
It was weird.
I don't know.
The other things that I think are weird too, I think Riddick's timing was weird when Jack

(35:14):
Barlow saved her.
It was such weird timing, I think, but you said you didn't read it that way.
So there there's sometimes it's like, am I reading into it too much?
Or am I reading it because there is really something there?
And then you go, it's a spiral.
And I'm going crazy.
No, because as you can tell, with especially with her signet in the first book, she means

(35:34):
lightning thunder almost every other page.
There's some kind of mention.
So then it will now I'm looking out for every other mention.
And then you're like, OK, well, is this important?
Is this not important?
And especially with her second signet, there are so many different references that it could
possibly be.
And Rebecca's interview said, oh, everything you need to know about her second signet is
an iron flame.
But yeah, I mean, there's so many different things that could be.

(35:57):
There's so many options here.
So I know we talked about in the deep dive about the Zaden's AtendZik thing.
So I'm not really going to pinpoint on it very much.
But I do in relation to that.
When I talk about how Dane, we talked about how Zaden could possibly read minds and the
comet how Dane said he had to touch people to not be a security risk really set my train

(36:23):
of thought off.
So he's on the map wrestling with Liam in one of the books.
So if he is able to touch people to read their recent memories, did he read Liam's memories
and he know about some of this stuff and was not exposing it?
Liam knew these secrets just as well as Violet knew the secret.

(36:45):
For some reason, I feel like right after they tussled, Zaden looks at him and Liam goes,
he didn't touch me.
But I don't know if that's true or not.
Maybe I just made that up.
I don't remember what chapter that is anyway.
Honestly, I do too.
I don't know if that was that particular scene or if that was Dane and Violet even maybe.
I don't remember.
That's a possibility for sure.
I do think though that was probably early enough on that Dane hadn't expanded his toolkit

(37:11):
just too much yet.
I don't think he probably read his mind only because we'll see.
And again, now we're talking about like mental shields.
So can you develop mental shields if you don't have a signet with your dragon?
Well that's the case too is it more than likely Zaden would have trained Liam growing up with

(37:31):
him to do so.
So that's a possibility.
But I mean, they don't really clarify as far as when you can do that bond other than the
fact that it's usually taught once you bond your dragon because you want to block it.
You find it interesting that they don't really teach it until year three, even though you
bond your dragon like mid year one.

(37:53):
Yeah.
They leave you exposed for two years.
That's interesting to me as well related to the signets.
I also want to mention too the scene that I called you about the other night.
I actually I was watching scrolling through TikTok and forgive me these theories.
I did not write down TikTok names of who I got them from because I just didn't know

(38:13):
if it was their original idea or somebody else's so I didn't want to misquote or misreference
anything.
But the scene where they're in the last battle and in fourth wing and we both missed it.
So on fourth wing on page 463 it reads, Teran puts us into position hovering about 20 feet

(38:35):
above ground as Liam flies for the griffons above us wielding spears of ice into the injured
wavering's throat.
So that reference made me question whether or not a rebel can have a second signet because
Liam's from what we know at least Liam's dragon is not of a generational bondage.

(38:58):
So obviously we know that I think it was Quinn had a generational bondage, but it was not
a direct relation and then obviously Zaden.
So that was the question that was the first time they mentioned it.
However, I know I was shocked in the moment, but after I got to thinking about it, there's
also the general signets, I guess you can call them that they could do and they did

(39:22):
say that ice building is a common signet.
So it may just be a lesser magic.
And so the possibility is maybe it's one of the lessors and he just is really good at
it.
It also could be a typo.
Very well possible.
It could have been meant for critics and ice welder.
So he wasn't even there.
So I mean, it may have been a typo, but if he wasn't in the battle, so I don't really

(39:43):
know that would be the case or not.
Also though, the lesser magic is really the only one that makes sense to me only because
or a typo because otherwise, it's Liam's dead and he's not coming back.
So it would have been explained while he was here as a part of the story rather than now
three books later, he's been dead for two books, but we're going to talk about the fact
that he might have been a second generational bonder.

(40:05):
You know what I mean?
That just doesn't make sense to me.
So I think maybe the lesser magic, but then again, if it was lesser magic, then why is
everyone not wielding ice?
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Well, and see, here's the thing.
Leads it as a possibility that there's a second segment because so Violet bonded to dragons.
So we just assume that she has a second segment because she has two dragons.

(40:28):
Then we have a introduction of you also get a second segment of when you bond a generational
dragon, then almost it's a third surprise of, oh, you also get here's a third option if
you're a rebel because you're unique.
And honestly, as far as I know from whatever things we discuss, this is the first time
that anybody's been able to get a rebellic ruin into their body because they were holding

(40:51):
those stones whenever their family was burned.
So there's not any research to back up that that's not a possibility to happen.
Well, and so here's my thoughts about that.
What if by imbuing some of their magic in that stone for the rune when it went into
them, it almost was some sort of bond?
Maybe that's how they have a different power or a second segment.

(41:13):
Also I think it's interesting.
We keep getting the reference though that if your second generation bond are either are
stronger and have a second segment or you go crazy, you go mad.
So that's going to have to happen at some point because it's being referenced so many
times.
And that's Quinn that has the other generational bondage that's not.
It is, but what are her two?
I'm pretty sure she said that she didn't get the second one and she also is not at risk

(41:36):
for going crazy.
I think there was one section where they talk about grow mad and they say that you either
get a second or you go mad.
And I think it was like an optional thing.
At least that's how I read it.
And then the second time it was referenced, it was almost if you are exactly direct because
I think Quinn, it was like her great aunt, it wasn't like her mom.
So I remember her saying something about, I don't get the go crazy.

(41:59):
So I don't know.
I think there's a lot of options, but I do think as far as the go crazy thing could
be where Zaden's little dreams were coming in at.
Also, I wanted to mention this before we moved on entirely from Violet's mom.
We talked about her potentially being vinnin or having some sort of run in with a vinnin.
There's a theory that maybe she was drained slightly when she was pregnant and that's

(42:21):
what happened to Violet also, not necessarily that she was vinnin.
But there's also an interesting theory that I saw Violet's hair color somehow might be
connected to Malik.
Malik.
Yeah, I see what I was talking about.
However you want to say his name, but which would be very interesting because he is referenced
very often in the book.
And there's other gods and goddesses that are referenced as well, which makes sense

(42:41):
because there's a lot of death, but also at the same time, none of them are offering
up sacrifices or worshiping or none of them are doing any of that.
Your typical God or goddess behavior.
And even when Liam comes back, it's mentioned, maybe it's a kindness from Malik.
So it'd be interesting to see if gods and goddesses somehow end up playing up in all
this.
But when she says to Taren at some point referencing one of the gods or something, and he says

(43:03):
that essentially like us dragons don't worship your gods.
Yeah.
It'll be interesting to see if that ever does get brought back up and somehow played into
the story.
Well, and I do think that they do talk way too much about the death role.
Now that you're saying that, that may be a possibility, but at the time when I was reading
it, I was pushing it off of, oh, they were dramaticizing how hard this really is.

(43:26):
And like, there's so many people that may die.
Yeah.
So I didn't think of it, but I mean, that's a possibility because they always put in there
way we commit their souls to Malik.
So, I mean, that's a possibility.
I can see that.
Well, a lot of other fantasies that I've read usually are some way in connected to gods
and goddesses because that's where the power in the theory comes from.
It'll be interesting to see if it does.

(43:48):
So what is your thoughts about going back to the whole hair situation multiple times?
Every time Violet's hair is mentioned, it's talked about how it's braided into a crown.
And I know you hinted about what you thought about it.
So do you want to go into that because I started thinking about it more and I'm kind of on
board with you.

(44:08):
Oh, are you?
I am.
Okay.
I know I prefer, I agree with you, but I know what the world's ending.
Everybody brace for impact.
I don't know why does it brace for impact anyway?
It's really bad because here we go.
No, I believe what I said the other day and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I indicated
that there's the potential that maybe she essentially let Zaden, Mary's or whatever

(44:31):
the process would be to Violet so that if he dies or he know he's going to die, if
he's a venom that she would take over as queen for his kingdom.
You believe something devastating will happen to Zaden and at the end of the book, she
will be like queen of Orisha or whatever.
Yes.
I think simply because we know Zaden, I think he's a martyr.

(44:54):
And so I think the fact that he is now been in, he is going to do everything possible
to get rid of the other Vinan, but at the end of the day as a Vinan, knowing the possibility
and the chance that he'll harm someone, I think that's going to be a big plot line in
the next couple of books.
And we talked about too, just on this turn of topic, if he is Vinan, what he could do
to manage his urges and I really do think those spheres are going to play a big part

(45:16):
into it.
I think that she'll put power in those conduits and that's how he'll be able to pull from
that instead of pulling from the earth or from someone else.
But she has so much already that she expends that I think that's what's probably going
to happen.
Then if that happens, we may get a real enemy to love her because then he might come to
crave her power specifically and want to draw directly from her more and more.
Eventually she'll have to kill him.

(45:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think there could be a storyline off the fact that because we are pretty confident
that the next book is going to be how to undo the Vinan hood from Zayden.
Try.
I mean, that's pretty much where generally that storyline would go.
So if that's the case, what if they figure out how to break the bond where Violet ends

(46:01):
up dying with Zayden?
And so then Zayden sacrifices himself or something like that so Violet could live and not have
to be the Vinan.
It's almost like a martyr like you talked about.
Yeah.
Well, and it is referenced several times that if she dies, statistically, they're all foregoing.

(46:22):
Yes.
But it's unclear if he dies if they're all foregoing to go.
Yeah.
So this potential that's going to be explored more because it is hinted at, but it's not
outright said the same way it is if she dies.
Can we talk about too?
Do you think that without the whole situation with Segeal and Zayden involved, if say if
Adarna dies, they talk about how this time with Taren, it may be more devastating that

(46:48):
he made I2 because they talk about how dragons sometimes die out of heartache.
So if say Adarna is killed, do you think it would kill Violet and then potentially kill
Taren?
Or do you think that if one dragon dies, Violet dies, or do you think Violet lives?
Or how do you think that little triangle would work in the event of one of their deaths?

(47:11):
Because I also feel like that's a possibility for the big death as well as one of the dragon.
If she kills Adarna, I'm going to be mad.
I mean, we have to have some kind of devastating loss because Liam was the first devastating
loss.
The second book wasn't as bad.
So I feel like the third book has to have some kind of a crazy devastation and then maybe
the fifth book.
I think if Taren dies or if Adarna dies, I think Violet goes.

(47:34):
I think the rest of them go.
So I don't think she can kill one of her dragons off.
Even though she has two dragons, I still think it stands that if your dragon dies, you die.
I feel like if Seagale dies, then it would almost kill Taren almost as equally as if
Violet dies.
Mike.
I mean, they say that they can't go that long without each other.
So I mean, if he literally has that much pull to be close to her at some point in time and

(47:58):
they have to go years because she's dead, I feel like that could possibly kill him.
You're right.
I feel like there's a potential there, but also it is a mate bond.
And maybe if the mate bond is broken now, it's still a devastating him, but maybe if the
mate bonds broken as she lays dying, they break the mate bond.

(48:18):
This is why this is confusing to me.
Say for instance, we know that if Violet dies, Zaden is a possibility of dying.
So we have Taren and Seagale.
So if Seagale dies, obviously Zaden will die.
So then obviously Violet will die.
In theory, Zaden will die.
If he's been in Zaden might not die.
Well, maybe it kills Taren, but then maybe Violet still lives because Endarna.

(48:43):
Maybe.
See, my thing is because she has two dragons, I see that as a nine lives situation.
Like you have two dragons, so you get two extra lives.
You know what I mean?
But Taren is almost her primary bond.
That's what I think of in my head.
But I feel like Endarna was made for her.
Well, Endarna was made 650 years before Violet ever came around.

(49:04):
So I don't know if I'm saying made for her.
She said she knew that once she heard everybody talk about her, she was meant to bond her.
She said, I knew you'd be mine.
And the quote that I really like is she says, you're as unique as I am.
Yeah.
I think there's going to be more to that that we're going to find out later.
Absolutely.
Endarna and Violet are like the same person.
I don't know what else to reference it as, but the same person.

(49:26):
Where Taren and Violet are more like a Seagal, Zaden relationship, brother, sister relationship
kind of thing.
But I feel like Violet and Adarna are like copy paste kind of thing.
I would prefer that Endarna and Taren and Violet don't die.
They also reference that it's been centuries since the last lightning wielder.
So it makes me think that there's a possibility that the seventh dragon was bonded to a lightning

(49:50):
wielder previously.
Like histories or period titles essentially.
Yes.
And then there had to be another Adarna 650 years ago, obviously, to light the Wardstone
in the first place.
But then that also makes the question of where's that dragon?
What happened to that dragon?
Where is that dragon?

(50:11):
Where's the six?
Because they talk about the six not dying after they immune the Wardstone.
So what happened to the six?
I feel like we may know more history about them.
I feel like the next storyline with trying to cure Zaden may lead us on a journey with
either the father's research or something with the six or something like that that could
kind of trail us to maybe even a cure or what the next storyline will be in fourth book.

(50:36):
Well so here's two things that we know.
We know that there are the head of the dragon line of each of them, which could be the original
six.
However, we know the original seventh one that's Endarna's line is not still alive because
she references that she is going to be the head.
Yeah, yeah.
So maybe that one died and the other maybe sacrificed itself and the other six lived

(51:01):
and now they're the head of their lines.
What about if the six killed off the dragons so the second Wardstone couldn't be imbued?
They killed the Endarna's.
But also my question is too is why can't both Wardstones be imbued?
Because she said you're going to have to choose one or the other.
But also we say that they can't but then the Wardstone still did the job.

(51:26):
It's not as strong supposedly so the griffons are still able to exist and function but it
stopped the Wyvern and in theory the Vinn.
Well so this is my thought process.
I'm thinking that originally in Visgaiath the six plus the seventh dragon imbued the
Wardstone there.
Then something happens as they're going to the second Wardstone or something where they

(51:49):
killed that dragon or they weren't able to then imbued the second Wardstone.
Violet and them did the first Wardstone in Orisha and they're talking about how the Wardstone
is strong or it's weak.
What's the difference?
Well my thought process is the possibility that whenever Violet thinks she has to choose
between one Wardstone or the other that the actual case is that's because that's what

(52:12):
the research says because they ended up we know one of the journals lied.
Maybe it's also keeping the secret that they killed off the dragon so the second Wardstone
couldn't be imbued for some odd reason rather than the fact that one has to be or the other.
It could have been too but the dragon died before the second one could be the case.

(52:33):
You know what I'm saying?
I see what you're saying that the lie in the journal is that they both cannot be functioned
essentially.
Well there was also the other lie about the seventh dragon because one of them didn't
include the seventh dragon, one of them just said six plus the one and it didn't ever
hint that what it was going to be.
I agree with you.
I don't understand why the same seven can't imbue the other stones.

(52:55):
That doesn't make sense to me either.
Or even at least in Darnitois.
That doesn't make sense to me.
Well try to see if it works too because we already know.
I mean like you said the Wardstone is up so I mean it's doing sort of its job and if you're
living amongst peace with the Griffins now, if it's protecting for the Wyvern and the
Vennan, I mean.
Then it's doing its job.

(53:16):
But we also don't know what else is out there because obviously I mean I don't know if she's
going to play on all five books of this Vennan situation since we've already met the general,
we've already got the sage, we've already got the next level down.
So I mean is the Vennan going to be the villain the whole entire time?
Are we going to come across another villain?
You know.
Uncle T is going to come back as a villain.
I could take that right now.

(53:38):
He just reminds me of like a little annoying villain character in the side or something.
I agree.
The guy that sits over in his palace and doesn't join the battle, I can't stand him.
So to end our episode, I want to talk about the possibilities for Violet's second signet
because there is so many different options and there's a lot of research that backs one

(54:01):
of them for sure but it kind of leads where the whole storyline is going to go.
So the first one is kind of the obvious one to me about talking to the dead because of
the whole scenes with Liam coming back.
That's the only scene that makes sense to me.
So I don't really know that's the case but like you said it could be a reference to the

(54:22):
Malik thing and not really like talk to dead per se.
But I also feel like when they're mentioning the six often that that may come in use to
figure out the solution is that she could go and figure out where the six died and talk
to the six or bring the six back because of her needing to figure out how to do that.
I mean to me that's a possibility.

(54:42):
That's some craziness right there though.
That'll take a whole nother round.
They just revive everybody at that point.
Well but I do think that there's a possibility where the talk to the dead could be a possibility
of where they could get more directly.
Especially knowing that there's two journals, one lied, sort of one didn't.
There's maybe a possibility that she needs to talk to all six to figure out exactly what

(55:03):
happened because if the dragons are not willing to tell her maybe the six will something along
that lines could be a possibility for a storyline.
I mean the most obvious possible signets but the least likely to me.
I agree I think it's the least likely.
But who knows.
Exactly.
But the second one that seemed more of a possibility was kind of related to that was need.

(55:27):
So she is able to summon everything by a need because she talks about how what Zaden
needed for his signet.
What Zaden had to have, what he had to do was to know information to be able to make
decisions on his leadership and things like that.
So that need that she kept emphasizing in that, draw it back to she's able to summon

(55:49):
whatever she needs at any point because there is one scene that and I just don't know if
it was writer error or what the case may be and it was referenced on the fantasy fangirls
podcast that they talked about how randomly Violet wakes up and Zaden's next to her and
she just talks about cuddling into him and he's gone in the morning or whatever but they

(56:13):
usually always say well Zaden arrived Zaden leads and there was no arrival announcement
there was no leaving announcement with that whole entire scene and it was right after
she had the bad dream of the sage and so what I took from that scene based off of that theory
the whole kind of beginning of that scene was I needed Zaden I need to figure this out
was Zaden so what she almost did was summon herself to be with Zaden wherever Zaden was

(56:35):
or bring Zaden to her and then once she was able to cuddle and comfort down she released
that need control power whatever and he went back to wherever he was at but Liam she needed
a distraction or distraction or like encouragement to like keep living don't give into it you

(56:56):
know that kind of need something there was kind of possibility it just seemed a little
I don't want to say weak of a theory but weak enough in the power sense you're bonding two
dragons one that's like the most powerful and you get lightning wielding and the other
one's the only one that's existed in 650 years it's going to be some major power that you

(57:20):
just couldn't think of well and there are several references about she needs this she
needs that but to me needs doesn't seem like a signet that would be in existence yes especially
because there are several times that she needs things that she doesn't get for example when
an image in breaks her arm she needs some help she ain't getting none you know what

(57:44):
I'm saying yeah I'm pretty sure that if there was what she I guess you know she didn't have
her signet then so I guess it doesn't count but there are other things like that that
she needs things that she doesn't get and for example she needs reassurance from Zaden
the entire book and she doesn't get it the entire book so I'm pretty sure if she needed
it she would have gotten for power was that I feel like she would have gotten a lot of

(58:05):
things a lot sooner I feel like more things would have worked out in her favor whereas
I feel like it was the opposite the whole book nothing went her way I don't know maybe
not but I'm not leaning towards need and I'm not leaning towards talking to the dead I'm
leaning towards the last one that you're about to tell us about well there's actually another
one that's got brought up and I'm not sure if it's similar or if it's a little bit different

(58:29):
there's a little less like background information on it that I just don't know if it's as big
of a possibility either is the mention of the distance wielder that there hasn't been one
in centuries because there also hasn't been a lightning wielder in centuries so I feel
like because they're saying that Violet is so weak it's a possibility she may have two
very very very rare signets that haven't been seen in centuries that is a possibility however

(58:53):
I'm not quite sure what the distance wielder is to be able to clarify like whether or
not that's the case but I feel it's very well possible because they mentioned the distance
wielder I believe twice in Iron Flame and so it would make sense it's almost like a predictable
thing for her to have to the most powerful signets and she's the only person to know
the history to have two dragons but that's the only part that makes sense to me about

(59:18):
it being a distance wielder is because of that well and that would it would technically
be a second signet but it really isn't like a second power it would just be the fact you
could use the power she already has at a longer distance but even if she struggled to control
in general much less a long distance control so yeah I'm again I'm not leaning towards

(59:40):
that one but it it does make sense I think we're going to see somebody that has that
power I just don't know that I'm sure that it's Violet.
Can we talk about something too before we move on to the final one that we pretty both
you know supportive to the possibility of this being the case but why in the first book
when they talk about you have to manifest a signet within a certain period of time otherwise

(01:00:02):
you basically burn alive now basically almost two years at the end of the Iron Flame I feel
like it has been and she still doesn't have a second signet.
Well I would have measured her time I think I would have said that her second signet should
have manifested when and Arna grew from there is when her time I think her clock would have

(01:00:22):
started in my opinion but even then we're at that point she should have blown up by
now but I guess maybe they would say she almost did has a little bit of a signet because she
could channel the time stopping she wasn't really channeling it but she could technically
I think the signet timeline didn't actually start until and Arna grew and became a full

(01:00:45):
adult well adolescents and lost that baby power whatever which was a baby baby power
for the need signet that could make sense that she channeled the time stopping through
Arna because that was what she needed at that time.
I don't know that I would say that she channeled it but more or less that Arna was able to

(01:01:05):
use her as a conduit with it because Arna controlled the whole time.
So the last one which we both fully I think believe that this is more than likely the
possibility because it obviously in fourth wing there was so many references to what
her first signet was that it's more likely that this was the second signet.
So the first reference that I could find was Iron Flame 27271 and she's standing in the

(01:01:31):
hallway with Varsh and he's basically trying to find whatever she may have on her and she
basically signaled pretty much and she basically signaled to Rihanna she needs to take the
stagger and up to that point Rihanna has not been able to move any object through anything
and she does at this point and she says I can't why couldn't I guess not until right

(01:01:54):
now not until I thought whatever this is had a chance of getting you killed from the look
you gave me.
So in other words what we believe her second signet is is amplification so she can basically
amplify the people around her to increase their power to whatever they're needing at

(01:02:14):
that point in time.
There is another quote as well that I thought related to this but I just don't know if it
for sure does or not but again I don't know if I could put anything in there for no apparent
reason but on page 294 of Iron Flame she also states that right before she gets the words
in the archives she says he said no need with words that strong and she says I can feel

(01:02:38):
them the throm of sharp intense power grows stronger the closer we get so it's almost
like she may be amplifying the words like power but it also could be related to her
first signet because we also talked about how she just is pure power so I kind of read
it in both ways that it could be that she could feel the amplification that this word

(01:02:59):
was stronger than others but also that she's just pure power so she's feeling the pure
power so I could see where that one goes both ways it's not related to any of it and I'm
just reading into it too much.
Do you know what I find really interesting though and this thought just came to me as
we're talking about this amplification all of these moments where she amplified someone's

(01:03:20):
power is a life or death situation which is hard to tell whether she's amplifying that
or whether their own emotions are amplifying that on top of that we get a ton of amplification
comments and references only to find out that cat can amplify your emotions.
Yes, yes.

(01:03:42):
So that would be interesting to see.
Oh, I don't know.
Well in this quote from Felix on page 373 of Iron Flame he says which again could just
be related to the pure power situation so I may be just reading into it too much but
he says Zaden can control and increase what already exists it's why he's more powerful

(01:04:02):
at night no two signets are alike and you create something that was not there before
you build pure power that takes the form of lightning because that's what you're most
comfortable shaping it as apparently car never taught you that either but to me I also read
it as Zaden can control and increase what already exists so Violet has almost like an
amplification to survive to help the people around her survive so that could relate to

(01:04:27):
the fact that she wants that need or willpower to get people to survive or save people so
she amplifies other people around her to protect that and again protection is another thing
that she kind of amplifies as she fills the greatest need to protect everybody around
her so I feel like that could be read as that I mean am I reading into it too much do you

(01:04:50):
think or are you I actually think there are multiple references to protecting this in
general throughout this entire series that I wouldn't be surprised if that was somehow
related to her second signet because not only is she protective but everyone else is protect
so protective of her that if that it would be ironic if that ended up being her second

(01:05:10):
signet well and then so the other thing with Mira we talked about how she was not able
to produce a word by herself and that we've learned this in the letter of the excerpt
at the top of page 395 as is though her extraordinary signet allows her to extend the wards around
herself and her dragon get at soaring ill lacks the consistent ability to produce her
own wards without extreme emotional stress I'm sorry to report I doubt this ability will

(01:05:34):
develop in time I had such hopes for her and this is from Professor Carr to her mother
Lilla soaring ill but however in that same chapter at page 398 she at then point she
says I can't this far from the wards and Brennan says shield or we're dead and Violet says I
tuck in hoping to make our trio as small as possible when Mira throws her arms up over

(01:05:58):
us her body trembles and Brennan and I wrap our arms around her back to keep her steady
she screams as though being ripped apart she's going to burn out so we know that she's able
to produce this ward and she even says it later on in the battle that I can produce
the wards on my own now so again Violet was in that presence and to me that almost like

(01:06:18):
reads that she can almost amplify it to a point where it hones this new ability within
somebody but her power her pure power keeps it there where they can continue to do it
after the fact because we know that reanna can continue to do that but then as well now
Mira can do that in the battle like several chapters later and Violet's not directly

(01:06:40):
in her presence to do so so I feel like that's a possibility it's hard to because it could
also literally just be that their heightened emotions breaks past that barrier that their
own power develops on its own rather than her influencing it and I say that because even
in that letter from car to her mom he says without extreme emotional distress so he almost

(01:07:05):
indicates there that she's done it but anyway it definitely will be interesting to see what
Violet's second sign it is and how it develops and how it relates to and darn us specifically
in how that bond is formed so that'd be really cool to see and how it amplifies in general
her own power that she already has because again coming back to what Felix said she's

(01:07:26):
pretty much just a power source she pretty much can just pull power from the air which
you know that sounds like vinnin I mean that is true I mean maybe she feeds off the sky
and they feed off the ground well and I have a theory about what they feed off of there's
times that it's referenced very clearly like that it's a hands-on draining hands on somebody

(01:07:49):
to drain them or hands on the ground to drain the ground you know specifics and then we
all of a sudden Zaden doesn't have to have hands on to do what he did to the general
or whatever and so it's but also he does have shadows so maybe his shadows were hands on
it just doesn't say that but it should say that that's what happened you know so it's
interesting to see well and I guess that leaves me into the question how is Zaden able to

(01:08:12):
still command the shadows if we don't really get a reference into the other venins not
having powers which could and that would on breaks and I think that's gonna probably play
into how the bond with the dragon works too because it manifests in a way that matches
the rider but it is technically the dragon's power so and I'm honestly curious to see if

(01:08:32):
we're gonna find out how the wavering are made as well because until they they talked
about the details about the two legs instead of four I honestly thought it was just dead
dragons that they brought back to life I'm not gonna lie that to me made more sense but
I've also not read any books on wavering or anything similar to that before so especially
if we're thinking in my mind again I was thinking that they were dragon riders so to me it was

(01:08:56):
like dragon riders and dead dragons made sense kind of thing but well and they may be and
when they come back Malik might punish again because nature needs balance and maybe they
transform into hideous beasts rather than dragons if dragons aren't scary enough
I don't think that all of them lose two legs is the ability because I mean it talks about

(01:09:17):
how dragons have four and the wavering have two so that's kind of a weird punishment that
they just lose two of their legs kind of thing well I don't think that's all they lose they
also lose the ability to power themselves their power is drawn from who created them
and when they died they instead of the opposite direction how riders die if their dragon dies
now the wavering die if the rider stops yeah yeah that makes sense yeah but I don't know

(01:09:39):
who knows how Rebecca will describe it and if it almost does create sort of a bond between
the rider and the actual bond not just a theory bond obviously there's some bond because it
kills them but I mean like a bond bond you know but it'll be interesting to see what
happens yeah I just want to mention that it'll be interesting to see who Kat ends up with
I've seen that people think how will end up with Dane and I've seen that people think

(01:10:02):
that Kat will end up trying to go after Cam or Eric whichever name he wants to go by and
I've also seen that there's a theory that she'll try to go after Eric and then end up
with Dane anyways but most sense because it doesn't seem like Kat craves love it's that
she craves power that Cam could be the very big possibility but I also see I seen a theory
that possibly Cam's entire family dies and he ends up having to take the throne and then

(01:10:26):
that's what Kat's just who you're my love of my life so I saw the theory that his brother
dies and his dad so that he becomes the king but also I think that we cannot build Kat
up to this whole thing about the throne and then actually give her a throne she has to
be not gonna pick so she's getting up with Dane and that's what they deserve.
I feel like there's something coming at some point where there's like an overthrow of the

(01:10:48):
leadership or somebody of power in that aspect you know it's gonna happen what Kat's sister
is gonna die and Kat's gonna take over from Uncle T and her and Dane are going to become
the rulers of that kingdom.
But I thought Uncle T was like third in line for the throne.
I don't know.

(01:11:10):
He has his own little area though.
I'm not talking about the big throne.
The big throne is gonna be Zayton and Violet.
Oh no, I think he'll be satisfied with that.
She ain't gonna be satisfied with that because she don't have a choice.
Well she may.
We'll see.
No.
I don't really have anything else where I think that this whole storyline could go because
there's just so many theories that could draw all of them in direction.

(01:11:32):
So I mean we could honestly talk about this for probably another four or five hours and
we wouldn't have any answers for a couple months.
So I really just want to figure out what happens and ASAP but again Rebecca suggestion right
and Zayton's point of view release that in the meantime but just to suggest it out there.

(01:11:53):
We're just released that honestly.
The rest of the series could just be in Zayton's point of view.
True.
I wouldn't complain.
I kind of enjoy Violet's point of view just because we get Adana and Taryn in there so.
Well he can talk through Zayton too.
But Adana can't.
Well Violet gets on my nerve some days.
I love her but she gets on my nerve some days and if Violet doesn't like hit her peak though

(01:12:17):
and doesn't get the confidence in herself and just totally get it together I'm gonna
continue being mad at her because we spent the whole first book talking about how everyone
doubts her and how she is so unlike that I will not die today and now all of a sudden
it's like maybe I will.
Well I felt like the first book was I will not die today but everybody doubted her and

(01:12:39):
then now in the second book she doubts herself and then I almost feel like the third book
is almost set up with I really can't doubt anybody because I've got to be able to save
Zayton and then.
In the fourth book.
So the first book was everyone doubts her and her on her motto was I will not die today.
Book two is she's doubting herself but the motto is we will not die today.

(01:13:02):
Book three is going to be he will not die today.
Yeah yeah yeah.
So Rebecca I just exposed you.
I was kidding.
Em you want to tell them what we are going to discuss for the next episode?
Yeah so on episode five we'll be covering five feet of parts so we are moving into a

(01:13:23):
different genre.
There is a movie that you can watch.
I don't know how close it is to the book because I have not rewatched it but it is a very small
book so I don't feel like they could have changed too much in there to be too different.
So the next episode probably will be a little bit shorter so I mean honestly if you guys
stick around we appreciate your support because we like to talk but you'll get a shorter one

(01:13:45):
next time and as far as if you guys want to read along with us or if you already have
read along and you want to share anything that you want us to talk about specifically
or just comments.
We want to try to keep doing shout outs and things like that in there.
We really appreciate you guys commenting on your eyes as fan theories and things throughout
the book sending us suggestions and all of that we appreciate that.

(01:14:09):
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We are on so many different platforms that you guys can watch us on.
Yeah pretty much everywhere that you can listen or watch you can find us.
Yes and as well you can also subscribe to our channels and we will be sharing like bloopers
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(01:14:29):
You can also check out on TikTok that we share some of that as well.
We will not be sharing as much on Facebook.
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We will do some bonus episodes here and there or maybe just straight chit chat with you guys.
We're still working out the kinks and things like that.
It doesn't come easy and overnight for sure.

(01:14:50):
Yeah we're recording on March 1st today so first episode release this morning so we're
learning as we go.
And we just learned how to post it last night.
We do appreciate your guys' support and we appreciate you guys tuning in every week.
And again we're not going to strictly do one certain genre or anything like that.
And also I mean if you just are reading along every single book please let me know because

(01:15:14):
I mean your dedication is acknowledged for sure.
We appreciate you following along with us and doing so as well.
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you're aware of what we're reading so that we have plenty of time to purchase it or be
able to find audiobooks.
As always we promised to Carl and Locke we were right now.

(01:15:36):
We almost had it.
Thanks for watching.