RELIGION & ADOPTION: Overview & Primary Sources

Episode Transcript
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Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (00:17):
This is keeping it 101, a killjoy's
Introduction to religionpodcast, which is part of the
amplify Podcast Network. We'regrateful to live, teach and
record on the current ancestraland unceded lands of the Abenaki
and Wabanaki peoples, as well asthe lands of one federally
recognized native nation, theEastern Band of Cherokee
Indians, and seven NorthCarolina state recognized tribal

(00:37):
entities. Increasingly, though,native folks are pushing us to
forego land acknowledgementsaltogether and focus on action
items. Let's start with landback. And as always, you can
find material ways to supportindigenous communities on our
website.

Megan Goodwin (00:51):
What's up? Nerds?
Hi, hello. I'm Megan Goodwin, ascholar of American religions,
race, gender and politics.

Hi, hello. I'm Ilyse Morgenstein
Fuerst, an historian ofreligion, Islam, race and
racialization and South Asia.
Goodwin. I know I'm supposed tobanter with you at the top, but
I have a feeling, like aninkling, that this episode is
going to be one of those momentswhere I think I'm straight
hilarious, but some of ourlisteners clue into the fact

(01:20):
that I am deeply dark hearted.

I mean, you are sad, or I'm sorry, you are
hilarious. Wow.

Wow.
That was a Freudian slip ofFreudian slips.
this is my best friend,

I was going to say, you are you know what it
was, I was gonna say, you arestraight. Which my brain made
sad. That's what happened.
So sorry. Good news, it turnsout the episode's gonna start --
Good news, the episode startswith some banter. Anyway, what I
was going to say was that youare straight and you are

(02:07):
hilarious, but also you fuckingdark. So let's, let's, let's go.
I have, I have been around youwhen you casually say shit like,
yeah, adoption is trafficking.
And watch your friends facesjust like, melt. Just simply
melt because, um, spoilers. Thisis a first of four episodes on
religion and adoption.

Yeah, that it is, and don't get me
wrong, nerds, uh, I'm so gladyou asked about religion and
adoption. It is one of the majorquestions that I personally get,
like, constantly, all like, allthe time, and that's wonderful.
But it also means that as youask about it, you tell me all

(02:58):
the ways that adoption affectsyour daily life or doesn't. But
as an adoptee myself, I havethought about this
professionally and personally,and being a killjoy means, you
know, I make, I make jokes aboutthe horror of it all

and and they're funny to a very specific sort of
audience. So.

yeah, child trafficking jokes tend to
be hit or miss.

They're a niche comedy genre.

That's fair and I appreciate that some
of my audience, like you knowyou and Kevin, Foody, really
appreciate these jokes. But I'llbe honest, I don't really think
about audience that much becauseyou're going to find out more
below listeners, but it's goingto be a lot of that. It's going

(03:50):
to be a lot of the grim, thegruesome, the gargantuan
shithole that is adoption. Andthe thing is, is I'm not wrong,
so we're going to talk aboutyour feelings in just a second.
But there is no way to frame aconversation about adoption that
does not assume violence,because it is a violence, and we

(04:13):
consistently frame it as notonly necessary but noble.

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're, I mean, you're not
wrong. You're not You're justalso very swiftly, like sticking
a sewing needle in the ear ofpeople's sense of the world, and
then like casually trotting offto get more salt and vinegar
chips while they're just in acorner weeping. I don't--It's
fine. This is fine. So maybethis special series of episodes

(04:41):
is a lot for some of ourlisteners who are adoptees or or
who are adoptive parents or whoare struggling with infertility.

and we're going to get to all of
those categories in good time,not necessarily all today, but
certainly over these fourepisodes. But yes, if you are
someone for whom all of thismight be hard, maybe these four,
because there's four ofthem--episodes aren't for you.
And just so we're clear this, ifyou're not cool with this,

(05:11):
"this" is the topics ofadoption, broadly, and religious
freedom as it relates toadoption, adoption and
reproductive justice, but alsoadoption and like the stealing
of native children--

straight up, child theft. Yeah,

we're gonna talk about all of those
things, but we're also going tonot shy away from talking about
how adoption means talking abouthuman trafficking and also, and
this is where people come forme, and to which I say, bring it
darlings, but adoption is notactually a solution for

(05:48):
infertility. I'm fact drivenabout these issues with with a
lot of gallows humor, becausethe ramifications of having been
adopted are and will always bemy entire life. Those are my
ramifications to hold and livewith, and they are manifold, but

(06:08):
I say that knowing that theseare not easy subjects. So if
this isn't for you, if thisfeels like it might be
dangerous, skip us. Skip theseepisodes. We will not love you
any less. And I mean that fromthe bottom of my heart. But only
you know your limits, your dearlistener, and this is supposed
to be a fun way to talk aboutreally grim historical cases and

(06:31):
an ongoing, kind of bleaksituation.

yeah. And if, if you are not in a space to sit
with that bleak but importantinformation right now, no harm,
no foul. We have some lovelyepisodes about writing a book
together. And we did a bookclub. We got an episode coming
up where we watch monkey man,listen to those. We had a tattoo
episode coming--like, there'slots of fun stuff that you can

(06:56):
consume and participate inkeeping it 101 land without
having to engage all of thisvery heavy material. That said:
Love a boundary. Love a triggerwarning. Love you saying what
needs to be said, while givingour listeners time to tap out.
Obviously, this is a you ledminiseries. So how about you

(07:17):
tell us what we're getting up tobesides, I assume having known
you for more than 17 years, waytoo many Paddingtons Bear or
Victorian chimney sweeps, orlike early 20th century Newsies
in New York, or like I wasbought on clearance jokes, which
I hate, as you know, becauseyou're clearly the Birkin bag of
adoptees. She is expensive,y'all!

for an alleged Birkin bag, I sure do
have a lot of defects. And don'tforget, I'd be of all the things
that piss people off. Don'tforget my penchant for trolling
famous nuns who cared fororphans, but only under the
guise of conversion, MotherTeresa. And in case you were

(07:57):
worried, I couldn't dunk onliterally Mother Teresa, this
should be a reminder to you tonever forget how insufferable I
am and how little we're lettingfolks get away with shit in
these episodes.

I would never forget that I would not want to.
I will have you know, actually,that on a recent controls,
someone said something aboutMother Teresa, and I made a
face, and he was like, what I'mlike, I don't know if you want
to know, but you did that. Sohey, thanks.

My favorite part about you learning
about South Asia from me is it'sjust like an undoing of all
these really famous people, likeall four of the ones that
Americans know. And I'm like,this is terrible, that one beats
his wife,

kids anyway, Teresa,

in all seriousness, let's, let's lay
out how these episodes are gonnago, even if this first one, dear
nerds, is heavy on the primarysources.

Primary sources.

I that that was a premature evocation.

says you, I think it was right on time. We had
such a long hiatus, and you'vedropped so many breadcrumbs
about adoption throughout ourfour--four years of this podcast
that Hansel and Gretel have beensaved 10 times over. Get to it
already!

fine.
All right, okay, I willabsolutely share bits of my own
thinking and story that makessense to share. But here's the
thing, we've been asked aboutadoption so often that not only
I assume because our listenersare, like, low key into me

obviously obsessed

but because religion, religious
organizations and like shockingno one imperialism, especially
that of the Christian variety,have so so much to do with how
we even think about adoption. Sothat's actually what I propose
we do.

All right, I ratify your proposal. We have
four episodes on adoptionplanned. This one's going to
have some facts. So we're all onthe same page, as well as a lot
of us setting up how adoptionlike shows up in our lives,
because just like any hiding inplain sight set of social
issues, we can guarantee yourlife has adoptees and adoption
in it. Adoption is not done withyou or something that's that's

(10:13):
this episode. Then we got anepisode about adoption and
religious freedom, especially inwhat's now the United States,
but not exclusively. You'llremember nerds that while
religious freedom is a conceptglobally applied in ways that
we'll definitely get toadoption, is also a specific
legal construct in the US.

Yeah! And Dr Courtney Lewis, who is
the Crandall family AssociateProfessor of cultural
anthropology and the director ofthe Native American Studies
Initiative at Duke will bejoining us on the third of these
episodes, sharing the story ofhow her father, Dr Ronald Lewis,
helped author the ICWA. Wado, DrLewis. And then finally, our

(10:54):
fourth episode talks about howadoption fits into reproductive
justice. Spoilers, you will notlike me after this one.

I mean, I will, but

that was like the collective audience
you. I hope you'll like me afterthis one. This is a rant you've
heard from me many a time afterseveral beers and or pre rolls,
like, let's be real. But we'retalking about reproductive
justice, which a lot of folksthink is separate from adoption,

(11:24):
but they're wrong, becauseadoption is not a solution to
the non problem of abortion, butalso adoption is not a solution
for infertility, and yet, Boyhowdy, does religion show up in
adoption conversations,specifically as it intersects
with abortion, birth control,pregnancy and other medical

(11:47):
things related to childbearing.

Choo choo get on that orphan train all aboard.
It's terrible.
Can I ask aquestion before we get into all
of that?

Sure

okay, because we haven't really defined adoption
and like maybe our nerds don'tknow what we mean by that word
when we say that word,

fine.
Go ahead, since I'll be theproblem across these episodes,
how about you name it. What?
What do we mean when we sayadoption?

Ilyse. The name of the problem is, Ilyse. No,

I'm trying to clandestinely SIP
beer, and you're constantlymaking me giggle every time,
every time!

I'm really proud of myself. I just like to keep
it fresh. So, all right, allright, all right. So when we
talk about adoption, we aretalking about the biggest,
broadest system where vulnerablechildren without guardians are
placed in the permanent legalcare of adults who can be
guardians. That maybe soundslike we're hedging or maybe
being neutral, and maybe youhear guardians as parents, but

(13:02):
we're trying to be broad onpurpose, adoption can take a
whole range of forms, and we'regoing to include systems of
temporary care, like the fostercare system, within our big
umbrella. Since this is asystem, all its parts
contribute. All parts show upacross cultures and communities
and nations. But ultimately,when we're talking adoption, we
are talking about the processthrough which child who is found

(13:23):
to have no capable parents isessentially reassigned to other
supposedly capable adults,either to be their parent or
their guardian. You'd thinkcaring for your community's most
vulnerable members--childrenwithout parents-- would be any
community's priority. But likeall things, it's it's more
complicated than that.

Of course it is, because usually,
unless a child's parents haveboth died, and we're thinking
about nuclear families here,because that's how the laws are
written. Okay? So I knowfamilies come in all shapes and

sizes. Again, adopterino (13:54):
I know. But usually, unless a
child's parents have both diedtragically at the exact same
time, and there are zero otherfamily to take them in, legally,
permanently or eventemporarily--even establishing
how we know a child is parent orguardianless is fraught as fuck

(14:17):
and Goodwin. Can you smell that?
Okay?

Like first of all, please never ask me that
question in your home, because Ihave spent time with your
children and they are gassy, butalso we are on screens hundreds
of miles apart, so I do notactually smell what the rock is
cooking, no.

Well, the nose knows and imperialism?
She ripe. We're not going to beable to talk about adoption
without imperialism, andspecifically white Christian
imperialism. So however I wantto make that joke? Is good.

The joke is good, and it's about imperialism,
because I said so. I don't knowhow we got there, but I don't
know why I'm surprised. I'm notactually surprised. I knew this
is where we were going, butlet's pretend I'm surprised
imperialism. I'm shocked,shocked to hear that there's.
Imperialism going on in thisestablishment.

I know you're so surprised. Well, guess
what, Megan, what we have totalk about imperialism because
modern adoption, contemporaryadoption, and more accurately
put, if we're going to be reallyspecific here, the removal of
children and their subsequentplacement into Christian
orphanages, Christianresidential schools or homes,

(15:22):
and usually white Christianfamilies, was and still is an
explicit, not implicit,explicit, stated tool of empire
and statecraft. Which is noteven scratching the surface of
the legions of children absorbedlike absorbed by the Catholic
Church, Catholic Charities andCatholic adoption agencies in

(15:45):
particular, and this wasspecifically the the future of
children who had the misfortuneof being born you know, bastards
to unmarried sluts. I meanfallen women. I mean women in
trouble. I mean loose girls. Imean,

excuse me, that is your not your mother. It's
mine. It's my mother, not mymother, not your mother.
I guess it is I'm an adopterino,right.
Excuse you. That is my mother.
You are talking about, continue

shit.
I did it again. I repeated thecultural and official church
line without questioning howadoption, racialized qualms
about parentage, and misogynywere connected. Anyway, we're
gonna get to that next episodeand a little bit later, this
one, these Connect. These issuesare not as easily separable as

(16:43):
we've made them seem in ouroutlines, but we're going to
take things, you know, one biteat a time. In any event, y'all
better believe that the wayadoption is framed as saving a
child from unfit parents andcircumstances is both a result
of and an informant toimperialist adoption practices,
like I said before, when we getto reproductive health care and

(17:05):
how it is a problematic andinappropriate part of the
adoption conversation, some ofy'all really will hate me,
because I'm going to be askingyou to check those narratives
for imperialism, and it willfail the litmus test each and
every time. You probably will besurprised, not you Megan, but
our listeners. And I'm gonnastay livid about it in my soul's

(17:25):
deepest recesses, really, untilI'm dead, because people like
me, we're commodities, notpeople--narratively, anyway, and
and legally.

woof. I mean, stay mad. You should be you
should be mad about that,Birkin, right? So we're gonna
primary source this ish, andthen we're gonna do a shock and
awe about how religions manageorphans within their practices,
manage orphans within their ownpractices. And then over the

(18:01):
next three episodes, we're goingto explore how Christian empires
used adoption and child removalto further the goals of white
Christian supremacy anddomination by looking at
religious freedom andreproductive justice. Y'know:
typically uplifting, superlighthearted stuff, like we do.

I mean, in fairness, if our
listeners are still expectinguplifting all these years later,
let alone on the topic ofadoption. That's fair. That's
really, I have terrible news

all aboard the Orphan Train and
All right, great, let's, let'stalk about your terrible news,
because the narrative aroundorphans to adopt you is really
is one of being saved, likefinding a family being chosen

(18:53):
sometimes, like in those filmswhere kids line up in an
orphanage trying to look theircutest to get picked, but it's
always like, look at howWonderful these parents are
taking in a kid that wasn'ttheirs and that they didn't have
to treat so well, but theydecided to anyway,

yeah, out of the goodness of their
heart, shouldn't I be sograteful for their so
magnanimous and godly behavior,the gratefulest

bear that ever lived. So yeah, as you point out
to me and anyone who willlisten, all of the time,
conservatively, 1,000,000,000%of stories, myths, legends, epic
sci fi, whatever features someparentless kid who relies on
superpowers to find their way inthe world. This is the only time
where you and I converge on StarWars because fuck a midichlorian

(19:36):
or needs the kindness of othersto survive, or experiences the
deepest cruelties of the world,because, as the narrative
structure tells us, they don'thave a biological family, the
most important thing to have,apparently. Or, on the flip, the
biological betrays the awesomeof the child. What up Vader? So
an adoptive parent swoops in andsaves the child from the misery

(19:58):
of their unfortunate lineage.
Or, the biological cannot beavoided. It is always there,
lurking like a big bad demon,like in Star Wars, fucking JJ
Abrams bullshit, or Harry Potterfucking turf face, also
bullshit. Whew, which is weird,right? Because I've read enough
British literature to know thatkids are beat ruthlessly and
senselessly, as we justdiscussed on our Jane Steele

(20:20):
episode, but somehow orphans areworse off for not having a
family, even if it is abusive.

Yeah.
I mean, like I said in the lastepisode, we can't really unpack
British obsession with orphans,including, I would argue, the
obsession with shipping yourkids off to boarding schools and
treating them like orphans evenif they're not. But you're not
wrong. Narratively, socially,orphans are meant to be grateful
regardless of what happens tothem if they're not left for
dead? Bonus, be grateful. Atbest, you're someone else's

(20:51):
obligation and responsibility,but at worse, you're refuse. No
one really want sloppy seconds,Megan, they just settle for
them. No one really wants this.
Adoption is a backup plan, thelast option, and we should
recognize how amazing thosepeople are taking in the trash

(21:12):
like that, how heroic, howselfless, how godly adoptive
parents or foster parents orthat kindly aunt who takes in
the kids. Those are the heroes,which usually marks orphans the
villain, or at the very leastthe narrative device that
demonstrates the well heroism ofthe heroes

love to be a plot point. Ow. Okay. On that note,
let's note. Let's, let's, I deepbreath. Let's get to the big
stuff. I sang the song. I sangthe song like, 400 years ago,
and you're out here on main anddepressing everyone again,

yeah.
But like, Okay, one, one lastword before we get to, like, the
song's promise, the primarysource of song promise. Since I
really do catch a lot of flackfor this, like, I get a lot of
hate from Hindutva trolls andZionist trolls, but the other
thing I get the most hate for onthe internet is my take on
adoption. And so I want to be

really clear (22:12):
I get a lot of hate for this, because, frankly,
white women in particular, aretold that they are only good
white women if they have theirown biological babies, and
frankly, a lot of them, oh, andthe other segment of people who
get mad at me are gay men whowant to adopt and hear my
critique of a system as eitherbeing anti family, anti people

(22:37):
with infertility or homophobia.
So let me be clear from thejump, I assure you my rage at
adoptive systems can live sideby side with my bone deep
personal knowledge that adoptionis not necessarily some inherent
evil. I am not anti adoption inthe same way that I'm not anti

(22:58):
white or anti men or anti momsor anti child. But I am dear
nerds, someone who has done thehomework and the research,
especially those that areadoptee-forward research
organizations or researchpapers, all data, qualitative
and quantitative, demonstratesthat adoptees are always missing

(23:18):
in the conversation aboutadoption. Adoptees are Make no
mistake about it, legallyallowed to be treated like
property, or at best,permanently rendered children
under the law. As you may haveguessed, I do not like the idea

(23:39):
that people are property or thatI am a 41 year old minor,

even if you are dressed like one.

I am dressed a little bit like a
minor, but that's

that's your business, your personal, private
business,

or that my life and my choices are
legally limited because of theway two people fucked in
college. But the absolute worstpart of this narrative where
saviors and orphans and religionand freedom and reproduction is
that a big part of how we frameadoption is because folks feel
entitled to families wherefamily only means a nuclear one,

(24:18):
where there's children. And tobe clear, these are not
theoretical philosophicaldebates. This isn't like, what
do you think a family issweetheart on like a Friday
night with friends? This isliterally my entire existence.
This is my whole reality. I havea wacky birth certificate. I
have no medical history. Theseare pragmatic things that
influence my ability to act andbe in the world. And when we

(24:40):
drop adoptees out of theconversation, what happens is,
is that my entire existence asthe product of this system, and
frankly, the goal of this systemis that my existence is erased
because of power. And, youguessed it, nerds, religion.

Yeah, ouch.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuer (25:02):
Goodwin, do you want to sing the song
again? Would that make youhappy? You know it would please
go primary sources. All right.
Goodwin, I know I'm kind of ourstar today, but do you have
anything to say first, if we'redoing primary sources, as

it happens, and as you damn well know, I surely
do, because truly, what Catholickid doesn't have adoption
escandalo skeletons in thefamily closet. So I, I have no,
like literally none, in my in myexperience, but you tell yours.
So I have, I have two vignettesthat I would like to share

(25:42):
today. Let's just start with thelighter one, which is still
really fucking dark. So forthose of you who were not graced
asterisk with Catholic parents,you might not know that until

(26:06):
about like 50 years ago, theCatholic Church and the Catholic
parochial school systemspecifically, was actively
involved in attempting toconvert this is a direct quote
pagan babies. And the paganbabies were from friases like

(26:29):
South America and Africa,famously not white and heavily
colonized. So A, of all thathappened. B, of all they would
ask parochial school childrenfor donations to save. And that
was the narrative. You broughtin a nickel, I think, or a dime.

(26:49):
It might have been as much as adime, which is not nothing in
the 1950s and 60s. And for thatdime

You could get a whole CRacker Jack
box, Megan, and your baby is theprize!

So the prize was, you got to adopt, quote,
unquote, and also name a paganbaby.

Wow

like a Cabbage Patch Kid, but, but human, um,
so my dad, who I loved verymuch, and also was an asshole,
adopted a pagan baby, which isin the context of his own

(27:34):
personal history, neither hereor there, but because you got to
name the pagan baby, and you gota certificate. By the way, I
have a picture. We will we willput it on the website. He named
his pagan baby the one that hebought with his dime, Lisa,
which is the name of hisyoungest sister, and he brought

(27:57):
that certificate home to hisfamily as evidence that my aunt
Lisa had been adopted. And shesaid, I have not been adopted. I
have red hair. And my dad said,Why do you think we picked you?

Love that story so much. I also, dear
nerds, you have to know thatthis document was on display at
Bob Goodwin, the late BobGoodwin's funeral, and I got to
see it in person, and I did nothave on my funeral bingo card,
adoption trauma, and then, andthen, and then it was and it was

(28:34):
fascinating, because this storyhas so many layers, because it's
not just Like the church is outon main and being like, "babies
for sale. 10 cents a head"

boy, boy for sale. no, no,

but like they're out on the street
like a freaking circus Barkerbeing like, we got pagan babies.
We got brown, black paganbabies. We got deepest, darkest
Australia, 10 cents a head! Butthen you've got your dad doing
that classic thing, right? We'reaccusing ganging up on a sibling
to be like you're not from here,you are adopted, is like the

(29:14):
biggest diss, right? And I thinkin the same way not to cut off
your primary sources, but likein the same way that we know
misogyny exists because we telllittle boys that the worst thing
you can call them is a girl,right? We know that adoption
sucks, because the worst thingkids can do to make fun of their
siblings is be like, you're notfrom here. You are not of us.

(29:34):
You are one of them,

followed slightly by my sister telling my brother
that he was a mistake, which isreally funny, because she was
actually a mistake, like she wasa whoopsie baby. Anyhoodle,
speaking of my siblings and alsomy dead dad and adoption,
seamless transition,thank you guys. We

are professional podcasters. You

are welcome. So speaking of my siblings and my
dead dad. And also adoption,this certificate wherein my dad
documented the supposed adoptionof my aunt Lisa, that was also
the room in which the onlysibling who spoke to me was my

(30:16):
secret brother, whomst I did notlearn about until, like 15 years
ago, almost 20 now, I guess. Somy mother, who was raised by the
Catholics, got knocked up by aProtestant, which--

that is a war, in fact,

escanadalo

That's like a BBC Ireland miniseries.

So mom got knocked up by a Protestant,
unwed, and the family lore goesthat he was supposed to marry
her, and then, like, ran offinstead he R U N, N of t, and so
she, I hesitate to use the wordgave, but Catholic Social

(31:01):
Services acquired--

yes

my biological brother, and I did not know that
he existed until I was well intomy 20s. And also my mom is
bipolar and sometimes remembersthings that didn't happen. So I
didn't say anything to anybodyelse I was related to, in
classic Irish fashion, because Itruly was, like, not sure if

(31:28):
this child that she rememberedhaving actually existed, but I
have met him, and it turns outthat he does.

So I met him also, it was an
adoperino convention, and also afuneral.

and in many ways, a war, but like, truly, my brain
did a thing where, like, he camein and said hi, and I was like,
Oh, you have to meet my friend,Ilyse.

And that was exactly what happened,
listeners, that's exactly whathappened. And I said, I got you,
you know, and you were my bestquality sister.

You are best quality sister. And it truly is
a testament to all the therapythat I have been doing for a
long time now that I did notinadvertently blurt, this is
Ilyse, She's adopted to but thatwas definitely my brain did just

You did stage whisper, "Elise. I
didn't say this exact sentence,"like two seconds later. But

you know what that was? All I had progress.
Thank you. Like my dad died.

So your dad died we were literally
at his funeral. That was amazingprogress. That's a lot of
Catholic adoption in yourprimary sources.

It sure was. It was also a moment where my brain
just autistically sorted thingsinto categories and like,
adopterinos go in this corner.

That's a sash I put on myself. That's
great. So

yeah, a lot, a lot of adoption in my Catholic
childhood and adulthoodnarratives, because Catholicism
is never, ever, ever

done with me. It's really not. It's
so not. We're gonna get to someof the pieces of that story that
fit into both realism of it alland the baby scoop of it all.

not the baby scoop.

And if that's not a phrase you know,
dear listeners, hold on to yourbutts, because you're gonna

Hey, Ilyse, do you have anything to say
personally about adoption? Hasthat affected your life?

It doesn't affect me at all.

Oh, good. End of podcast. Thanks for listening.

All right. All right, here we go. I
was adopted at birth through aprivate adoption in the early
1980s in New York City. UntilJanuary 15, 2020, that meant I
could not access any paperworkabout my own life, so the birth
certificate I use, my officialbirth certificate, is this weird

(33:46):
Frankenstein document thatactually has, like, literally,
it has two dates on it. So Iwill not post my birth
certificate, so I'm not adumbass, but I will describe it
for you, and that is to say itlooks like a birth certificate.
In the state of New York birthcertificates are legal sized
paper. Mine has an eight and ahalf by 11 inset that looks like
a photocopy, because it is, thatlists all of my adoptive family

(34:07):
information, including my myname and their names. On the
legal size paper, it saysseparate dates about when I was
officially that person, becausebefore those dates, I could have
been someone else. And so thisweird document that I have is
actually this phenomenal exampleof how the original birth

(34:29):
certificate, the informationthat you all take for granted,
is not my property. It is heldby New York State. And now,
after January 15, 2020, I canask permission to look at it,
but my active birth certificate,like the one I have to use to
get official documents, the oneI need for my passport, the one
that I've taken to the DMV, willalways be this very weird

(34:50):
testament that I could havebeen, might have been, was
supposed to be, was slated tobe, literally someone else
entirely.

Yeah, and I'm sure that has not caused any
sort of drama whatsoever intrying to get, I don't know,
passport renewals or visas, orany sort of interaction with the
state where your standard scarequotes document doesn't look
like everybody else's standarddocument. So yeah,

I had a hard time getting my driver's
license when I was 17 in NewJersey, and because it looks
like a fake, it looks like aphotocopy of a real document.
And like any look you've been tothe DMV, these are, these are
not, um, these are not our bestand brightest. Okay, they're

(35:37):
busy, they're harried. They'regetting yelled at

they're doing their best. They're doing their
but yell at them all day.

But they are also meant to be a line
of defense against falseidentification. Yeah. And so
looking at a document that isactually two documents, why does
a document have two birthdays?
What person has two birthdaysthat does not make no sense? Is
a sentence that someone in NewJersey said to me when I tried
to get my driver's license. Andwhen I tried to get a driver's
license in North Carolina, I wasactually sent out. I did not get
my driver's license on the firstgo in North Carolina. I had to

(36:02):
come back with a notarized pieceof paper from a lawyer that was
like, this is actually a realbirth certificate. You have to
grant her it. And that makessense, right? Like a Republican
state at the time that it was,is really and, like, fixated on
illegal immigrants, which, like,lord knows is not real. People
are not illegal. But this birthcertificate was setting off all

(36:23):
of those "You don't look right.
This don't look right. You don'tlook right." So all of which
this points to right. This isn'tjust a story about my birth
certificate. What this points tois that I could have been
several different people. Icould have been a different
religion, I could have had adifferent name, I could have
been a different race, even,because that's how whiteness

(36:46):
works. What seems kind ofswarthy or ambiguous might have
become just white passing inanother universe, and that is a
big conversation in lightskinned or white passing
transracial adoptee communities,this proximity to whiteness
stuff, what is your realidentity? And that's a different
conversation, but a relatedconversation to the

(37:09):
conversations that Asian inspecific and Black adoptees
placed in white families arehaving that refuse those
families that refuse toacknowledge racial, linguistic
or ethnic differences, that oldcolorblind thing, which we'll
get to when we get toreproductive justice. Anyway,
that's a crap take. When you'veadopted a child of another
ethnic or racial background. Youshouldn't try to just white 'em

(37:30):
up, anyway, all of this pointsto the malleability and loss of
identity inherent in alladoptions. But I kind of
digress.

I mean, yes and also no, like, I'm not gonna
lie, the the time where you asas is your want casually
mentioned that, like, maybe yourparents weren't white, who can
say truly, both broke my brainand I think was the first time I
really understanded race associally constructed, like it is
a thing that I have talkedabout. I had talked about and

(38:04):
taught about four years, andthen I was like, but this is my
bestie. How can, how can she notknow who she is, where she's
from, and the state of New Yorkwas like, You are not entitled
to that information, youperpetual infant, and that
broke, broke my brain.

And also, that information is not on
a birth certificate, yeah. Andso like, the information I have
is not clear, yeah, theinformation that lawyers gave me
and my parents has some, like,racially coded phrases,

but who can say?

And the bio last name, if you like
Google, where it's from, has,like, loads of South and Central
American places on it

Sure, right.

So, like that, who are you? Where
are you from? Man, thatshits--that shit is sketch,

yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, so, like definitely
sketch broke my brain a littlebit. But why is, why is your
identity relevant to likeeveryone, adopterino

so I teach my own birth certificate
in classes on race. And I dothat because I like pointing out
that the squishiness of identityis really evident in adoption.
It's a visceral teaching tool.
So I was born in 1982. In 1984which is the second date listed
on my birth certificate, thestate decided that my parents
permanently passed thetents--the test, rather I was a

(39:43):
Morgenstein, per the state andrecords. Now my parents will
tell this story reallydifferently, right? My parents
will say you were ours from theminute we held you. That's
great. It's not legal, legallytrue. And I love that. That's
the story they. Hell, I thinkthat's an important and powerful
story, and I think that wasdeeply important to me as a
child, but like as an adult, Iknow the difference between a

(40:08):
story and a fact. If the statehad decided differently, boom.
New dates, new names, newbackground, new religion,
probably new ethnicity, possiblymaybe new a new new
racialization, probably notbecause of the prioritization of

(40:29):
white parents in a system thatprivileges whiteness. But you
never know.
I think about this all the time,in part because of my own
religion. Jewishness is bonedeep to me, except, of course,
it might not have been, andthere are very conservative
Jews, including the entire stateof Israel, that would say, I'm

(40:50):
not properly Jewish. Judaism isboth a racialized and an ethno
religion, like loads of Jewsbelieve you aren't a quote real
Jew if you aren't onematrilineally, so being adopted
is historically fraught in myown tradition. We're gonna get
to that in a second. I've saidbefore on the podcast, this is
the least problematic thing thatthe American Israeli Jewish

(41:11):
connection is doing currently,you know, like besides
supporting a fucking genocide,but the Israel visiting program
of birthright, which suggeststhat all Jewish people have a
birthright to the modern nationstate of Israel, which is
younger than my dad. Anyway,this propaganda organization
suggests that the most importantthing is, if you are born
Jewish, it's in the literaltitle and like Goodwin, this is

(41:35):
a real question. Was I?

right?

Yeah, is being able to prove it to a
community the value it? And yes,it was, and it still is. Lots of
Jewish adoptive parents opt toget their kids mikvehs, which is
essentially like a bath, to makethem converted properly into
Judaism. So if adoption assumesthe removal or a mitigation of

(42:01):
one's original identity, whatdoes that mean with respect to
religion? Now I'm asking a lotof questions. I'm oversharing on
purpose, and like nerds, pleaseknow this is a curated overshare
like this is on purpose, but myprimary sources, too long,
didn't listen. Is two points,really, one Darling children of
bio parents, you literallycannot fathom how much of a mind

(42:24):
fuck being adopted is at everylevel. Where are you from? Is
always a loaded question foranyone in the United States, but
for me, it is literallyunanswerable. I don't have a
fucking clue because thegovernment decided I don't have
a right to know, not didn't Idon't have a right to know. I'm

(42:46):
not allowed to ask. Still. WhenI summoned my OG papers after we
worked for years to lobby NewYork state to provide adoptees
that asked with quote, nonidentifying medical paperwork,
the paperwork is, meh, yeah,it's a birth certificate. Megan
has seen my original birthcertificate. The only detail,

(43:07):
details I'd like to share isthat there's no father listed.
It's literally a blank my bioMom's maiden name is there, but
that's it. I have no name. I'massigned no name. There's no
information on this. Besidesthat you were assigned blank at
birth,I was assigned blank at birth.
Yeah, a b, a b, that's me.

(43:29):
That's the next tattoo. ABAB.
There is no information, though,on this piece of paper, you saw
it, there's nothing there. Sowhen someone asks an adopted
kid, where are you really from?
Girl, I don't know. I can guess,because I'm like dope at
research, but I'm not allowed toknow.
Compounding that lack of data isthat society says my adoptive

(43:52):
family is my only family. So,like, literally, until 2020 I
wasn't even allowed, per statelaw, to ask my bio mom's name.
My birth certificate lies. Itlists my adoptive parents as my
parents from birth, even as thesame document is required to say
that it is reissued, whichlegally says this was not always

(44:15):
true. So when someone asks,Where are you from, as an
adoptee, socialized to know thathedging is unacceptable, you
learn to answer accordingly,even if the follow up question
to that is okay, well, myfamily's Ashkenazi, and so
they're from these places.
They're from Russia and Polandand Austria, and then the next
question is always, huh, youdon't look like that!

(44:40):
Dear nerds clock how I'm framingthis entire topic, just to see
how bone deep this shit is whenI say I was adopted, I am not
the actor; that is a passivevoice sentence. Loads of younger
adoptees are way better atsaying adoptee, and there's a
noticeable generational shift,and frankly, I'm going to give

credit where it's due (45:01):
It has been led. That shift has been
led by bi by BIPOC adoptees andeven more specifically,
international transracialadoptees of East Asian descent.
But my default as a kid born inthe 80s, was I was adopted,
which is to say I'm not theactor in my own origin story.
That is a mindfuck, and alsotells us about our collective

(45:26):
values. That child is acommodity, a non agent. The
actors in that sentence are moreimportant than the acted upon.
The second thing that I careabout about this story, or why
my story matters here is thatreligion is always in the
adoption room, historically, aswe're going to see soon,
theologically, as we're going toget to in a second. But also in

(45:48):
terms of how we collectivelythink about heritage, tradition,
practice, I'd add identity theretoo. Is a child removed from
their family of birth, entitledto a heritage, and if so, whose
is it? How do communitiesnavigate that question? Is it
left up to individual parents?
What are the stakes? We're goingto get there too. Since all of
those things actually tell us alot about religious freedom or

(46:10):
the lack thereof.

I am supposed to respond, because it says respond
on the script, but like, I don'teven have any words. They're
just kind of grunt moans. It'sjust like [moaning noises].

(46:37):
and again, if that is how Ifeel, already knowing your
story, but just having heard allof that out loud, yeah, I think
I just want to underline andlike highlight an exclamation
point, mind fuck. And then we goto the next section. Yeah, come
on, ride the train.

I love that we're making so many orphan
trade jokes like it, It likemakes me feel good in a really
fucked up way. I imagine this ishow like Tim Burton feels when

(47:14):
he's like, this snake reallyspeaks to me. It's cute. And
you're like, it's gonna scare anentire generation of children.

You're gonna scar everybody. Let's go

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuers (47:23):
Goodwin before we move on all the way.
Can we? Let's talk about howreligions see adoptions,
because, like, missing, dead,shitty or abusive families are
not new, and most cultures andcommunities have ways of
managing Guardian less children.
plus, as I like to point outwhen I talk about adoption in my
classes, Moses was adopted.

(47:46):
Mohammed was an orphan, and Maryraised Jesus without his baby
daddy, but with Joe, who may ormay not have formally adopted
Jesus, I don't know their

life. Okay? He's the dad who stepped up. Okay.

Insert Maury polvich, he's

not the father.

Maury (48:02):
You are not the father.

All right, to get through how
religions are thinking aboutthese things, can I propose an
old fashioned shock and awe?

Indeed you can Elise and indeed you have so.
Indeed we shall. Let's, uh,let's start with Judaism,
because I feel like that's maybepertinent to your interests.
This is a special treat. You canhave a little of Judaism and
adoption as a treat. In Judaism,adoption and orphans have a
tricky role. And Jewish law isso wondrously complicated that,

(48:35):
as the jokes about it say, youcan find any opinion you need,
and then three dissenting onesyou don't for any position. But
textually, taking care oforphans is a mitzvah, a good
deed, and procreating ismandatory so there's a weight
there, but many rabbinical textshold that adopting is equivalent
to birthing children. So there'salso Torah stories about
adoption. Maybe most famously,in your favorite Jewish stories

(48:57):
are about, IRMF, they're beingtaken in by Mordecai, her older
cousin, before she kicks all theass in Purim stories. I remember
the first time we did Purimtogether, where you were, you
did a flawless floimpersonation, and you were
like, at least you're gonna likethis part, because it's about
adoption, all right. And I knowthere's Talmud that says
something like, whoever raisesthe child is their parent, which

(49:18):
has been a space of opening forJews who need parents, but also
in queer Jewish communities andideas about chosen family.
But also Judaism is really,really invested in bloodlines.
Like textually, there's allthose begets and begottings. And
while different Jewishcommunities have taken this more
or less seriously in differenttimes and places, Jewish law
makes no bones about how Jewsare created through birth, and

(49:41):
especially through having aJewish mother, there's an
emphasis on not separating thechild from their biological
family. So closed adoptions havehistorically been totally not
kosher, even though, in mostWestern nations, closed
adoptions have been the primaryform of legal adoptions.

And obviously religion is what
people do, and lots of Jewsadopt. This is old data, so I
want to start with the old data,and then I'll move to the new
data, but around the turn of thecentury, and by which I mean
2000 not 1900 to those of us whospan the millennium, something
like 5% of all Jewish Americanhouseholds in the year 2000 had
adopted at least one child,which at that time, compared to

(50:17):
Christian American households,was about double. So Jews had
been adopting, that number hasshifted. So now is about 5% of
Christian households. Andobviously, 5% of Christian
households is significantly morebabies than 5% of Jewish
households, just based ondemography. So yeah, I want to
be clear that saying that 5% ofJewish households is more than
Christians had been adopting atthe turn of the century does not

(50:38):
mean that Jews adopted morechildren than Christians. Just
per capita, Jews were adoptingmore frequently than Christians.
So that has changed. We're gonnaget into why in the next
episode. But Jews are adoptingfor loads of reason. Ergo,
adoption has been made Jewish,even if US legal practices of
closed adoption is definitely atodds with most Jewish law on the

(50:59):
And I'll add, because I can, ifyou want to think about Jewish
issue.
law and state law, Israel'sobviously the place to do it.
And again, neither of us arekeen on talking about that state
right now for anything exceptits to date, relentless
genocidal attacks onPalestinians. But we're going to
stay on topic. In Israel,adoption laws are, like most
nations, kind of odd. They'renot special there. For a while,

(51:21):
Israel did not allow interreligious or inter ethnic
adoption because ethno state andJewish nationalism. In the 1990s
it signed on to the Hagueadoption Convention, which
addressed internationaladoption, which was on the rise
in the 90s, driven by Americaninterest in international
babies. Um the Hague adoptionconvention was aiming to shore

(51:45):
up some of the truly horrificpractices in this arena that led
to child trafficking, includingenslavement and sex trafficking,
but the Hague adoptionconvention gets at changing the
adopted child's religion byallowing Convention states to
restrict adoption to samereligion adoptions based on the
child's religion. So what thatlooks like is, in Israel, Jewish

(52:08):
citizens can adopt Jewishbabies, and if a Christian child
can be proven to have beenChristian, then a Christian
child, then a Christian family,rather, may adopt them. In
theory, this works to protectthe child from having their
identity altered. But we cantalk about more what this work
does at some other time, becauseI think it does lots of weird --

(52:29):
How do you prove a child isChristian? Is really
complicated, because, like lotsof Christians believe it's like
they have to choose baptism. Sois a child born Christian in the
same way that a child is bornMuslim or Jewish?

Let's be honest.
That's some Protestant nonsense.
Catholics don't bother askingtheir kids. Asking their kids.
They just don't.

But the Protestants are the thing in
that region of the world, right?
So, like, it's complicated, andI want to be clear, this is not
just Israel, right? SoIndonesia, for example, does
this as well, with nointerreligious or inter ethnic
adoption. But it does. I want usnerds to show our listeners that
the only Jewish state in theworld has reinterpreted Jewish

(53:06):
law so that adoptions canactually happen.

It almost sounds like the and I'm going to put
this in quote here, right toadopt is directly involved in
statecraft and nation making,huh?

Yeah, that's funny, isn't it?

That's interesting. Checks out. Okay,
so Judaism complex relationshipwith adoption religiously. But
if religion is what people doand people adopt, then Jews have
figured out ways, both withinnation states like the US, UK
and Israel, and within religiouscommunities to adopt and keep it
kosher.

Yeah, that checks out. Should we talk
about Islam?

Why not?

How about I take this one?

Yes, please.

Adoption in Islam is actually pretty
complicated. Legally, likeJudaism, Islam has a tradition
of interpretation andjurisprudence, and for all
Muslims that exist in the world,a myriad ways of thinking about
that thick or Jewishjurisprudence. Here are the
highlights, though, Islam hassome prominent orphans, like
Muhammad. He's arguably the mostimportant one.

Yeah, I've heard of him. He's, I feel like he's
kind of a big deal.

Yeah, Islamic adoption, textually,
looks similar to Jewishadoption, where there's a sense
that one cannot and should nottry to sever the ties of the
child from their biologicalfamily. So no closed adoption, a
reticence to changing the nameseither first or last for
adoptees, that sort of thing.
However, Islam is explicit thatcaring for foundlings is

(54:45):
mandatory period the endmandatory. This is there's no
bones about it. The legalschools are not in they're in
agreement. There's no argument.
But supporting us foundlings andadoption are actually quite

different (55:00):
orphans are different than adoption. And in Muslim
history and communities, there'sa disconnect between how we
Westerners talk about adoptionand what is considered legally
ideal in some big picture ways.
And I want to be clear, becauseI know that our nerds are
folding their laundry while theylisten to us, and they're also
googling. They're like, huh, Inever thought about Islam and
adoption, and they're like,pulling it up right now. And

(55:21):
before you say, Oh, actually,Ilyse, on the on the internet, I
read this really crazy stuff,

here's the clap back (55:29):
yes. On the Googles, you will find some
very conservative internetshaykh types saying that
adoption is not permissible, butwhat the fiqh says is more like,
you cannot strip the child oftheir family of origin period.
You cannot change their name.
You cannot erase biology forreasons of marriage, which no

(55:52):
lie, was actually my deepestfear as a teen slash tween, when
I just wanted to make out withsomeone, I was, like, deeply
concerned that I wouldaccidentally make out with
someone, and they would secretlyhave been my sibling. Because
when you don't know who yourfamily is, you don't know who
your family is. But a lot of thespirit of fiqh or Islamic
jurisprudence is that themandating, the mandate is the

(56:17):
care for orphans, but it's notthis adoption where you
literally are transferred fromone family to another--which is
to say that like you can havethe care of orphans without the
dissolution of a biologicallineage. But keep in mind,
nerds, religion is what peopledo. I know loads of Muslims in

(56:41):
the US and the UK who haveadopted children. I will admit
that adoption is less common inMuslim majority and conservative
nations broadly. But again, thatseems to be actually about how
the West imagines adoptions andwhat we count, which is one of
the reasons that Americansactually go shopping for

(57:02):
babies--when Americans goshopping for babies
internationally, they areusually not able to do so in
Muslim majority nations. TheState Department literally says
on its website that the way wedo immigration papers here,
where a child's last namereflects that of their parents
probably won't work because manyMuslim majority nations allow
for something closer to what wewould call guardianship,

(57:25):
fostering or permanentguardianship, rather than
adoption. And Megan?

yes, IRMF?

want to be really clear that even
though a lot of Americans seethis in Islam and say, Oh, they
say, No adoptions, but you canfoster permanently, Ooh, that
sounds really barbaric andbackward. That is actually the
model that most adoptees in theUS and UK argue for. Most
adoptees in the US and the UKare actually angling, lobbying

(57:56):
actively for systems ofpermanent guardianship. That
model pairs better with openadoption than closed adoption.
The idea that all peopleinvolved in creating or caring
for this child know each other,interact, and that folks can set
how they do those interactionswith various levels of
involvement. In a permanentguardianship model, things like

(58:19):
names would not change.
Ethnicities, religions andcultures are not secret or
hidden, and the adoptive parentsare not legally displacing bio
parents. So in this model, mybirth certificate would never
have needed to been reissued,even if my mom and dad remained
my mom and dad in literallyevery other way.

(58:41):
I want to be clear that I havemixed feelings about permanent
guardianship versus adoption,but since a lot of white and
Christian and American andBritish folks listen to us, and
whenever I end up talking aboutIslamic law's general approach
to adoption, I get folks itchy,in a very Neo imperialist and
frankly racist way, questioninghow kind or open or accepting a
religion could be if adoption inthe way our nations see it, is

(59:04):
not allowed. So I just need tosay that a lot of adoptees
actually prefer this model whereyou keep the name your bio
parents gave you, you keep yourhistory. It's Google able, you

Unknown (59:11):
Yeah, yeah. I think so.
This is new to me, but Okay, soknow what's what, and you still
get these other people who arewilling to care for you. So even
if how Muslims do adoption inreal life looks like the nation
state laws of the country theylive in, Islamic law looks a lot
similar, more close to thispermanent guardianship models
that adoptees are advocatingfor. Does that

(59:40):
I assume also that thisunderstanding of adoption is
like guardianship or caretakinghas something to do with like
inheritance and lineage laws,but also emphases within Islam,
like theologically, right?

totally.
And that's obviously a wholeother episode, but yeah, Muslims
be adopting, not at the rate ofJews statistically or
Christians, but not at a rate ofzero either. There are
specifically Muslim adoptionnetworks and agencies in the US
and the UK who cater to theneeds of observant Muslims and
who strive to set up Halaladoptions within the structures
of American or English orbroadly British law.

Megan Goodwin (01:00:20):
Okay, okay, I feel like we've got a lot to say
about Christianity, so maybe saythat one for the end. What about
Hindus or Buddhists? What otherreligions Could we talk about?
Like, quickly?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:00:32):
let's do Hinduism. So India, famously,
the world's largest Hindumajority, has as nation has one
of the lowest adoption rates.
And adoption in Hindu traditionsis actually pretty tricky.
Globally, we see a nearuniversal stigma about adoptions
for reasons that make sense,right? So, like, adoption is
mentally and emotionallytraumatic, and other things are
just misogyny, eugenics, andother forms of bias, as in, like

(01:00:57):
bastard children must inherentlybe damaged goods, or even
sometimes an unlucky child--onewhose parents drop dead, for
example--will bring that badluck with them to other
families. So like, think aboutall the horror films you love,
like the Omen, which is famouslyabout a killer orphan, right?

Yep, yep.

And I want you to hear how eugenics
tinged that is. When you don'tknow someone's biology, you
don't know who they are, really,it's fucked. But in India, the
caste system and its many, manyrules add to this pretty
universal stigma, as well as itslike local flavor. So for
example, in the YājñavalkyaSmṛti, which is an ancient legal

(01:01:41):
text. We have a lot of cleardepictions of adoption that say
the adopted child must be of thesame caste as the father or head
like as as the head of thehousehold. This text and other
texts also specify that sons areto be prioritized, even listed
as the only children availableto adopt. So gender is big here,
and while I don't want to spendtoo much time on this, part of

(01:02:03):
the logic is deeply religious.
It's not just misogyny. It'sactually religious. Sons in
Hinduism have a very particularrole around caretaking, and
especially in the final stagesof life. So a childless couple
in need of a son is actuallypart of the religious math of
adoption logic in Hindutraditions.

(01:02:25):
Now, the nation state of Indiaoverhauled its laws in its early
days, including, importantly,the Hindu adoption act of 1955
which tried to updateeverything, streamline the
process and outline who and whatconstitutes a legal adoption
within India's extant notion ofa personal law, which is too
much to unpack here, but itbasically says that, like, yes,

(01:02:47):
children from orphanages can beadopted, and caste should not be
part of that decision, norshould gender, because we are a
secular state, and while we areusing Hindu principles, we are
not mandating Hindu Ideas,

huh? Okay, all right. So if I've got this
right, Hindu traditions have afraught relationship with
adoption, and while caring forchildren is, of course, vital, a
lot of the textual sourcesprioritize adoptive parents and
other social systems like caste,but modern India's laws negate
all of that, even if socialcustoms still prioritizes male
children and stigma aroundadoption is still high,

Ilyse Morgenstein F (01:03:21):
completely.

Okay, all right, so in the interest of time, let
us move on to Christianattitudes about adoption. I
assume this will be also oursegue into some dark teasers for
next time

you bet.

Neat, right? So Christianity, as we have
discussed already and willcontinue to discuss for quite
some time is, to say the veryleast, down with adoption, even
if, culturally, orphans stillinhabit a space that is betwixt
and between, and listenlisteners, we will get to the
formal child stealing thatliterally begins America's
adoption processes. Just, justwait for it. We're going to talk

(01:03:56):
a lot about that, actually, butfor right now, I am told that we
are focusing on how Christiansview adoption, not how Christian
imperialism used race, usesrace, science and civilization
to strip untold millions ofchildren from their families,
cultures and communitiesworldwide.

And they still do that's not
historic, that's like, ongoing.

Yeah, they absolutely still fucking do. But
to be consistent today is, howare Christians imagining
adoption within Christianity?
And there's a lot of informationabout this, because Christians
have the most adoptioninterpretations available, not
just through theological texts,but also agencies and
organizations, individualchurches and denominations that
publish all matter of tracts,pamphlets, websites, etc. A lot
of orgs cite Jesus's birth asevidence that the Christian God

(01:04:36):
assumes adoption. A number oftheological tracts cite the New
Testament verses where Godadopts believers as God's own,
but it is assumed to berelational. The Christian must
be Christian to be adopted intothe family. Conversion or a
creedal devotion is mandatory.

yeah.
Similar to Judaism and Islam,there's a lot of explicit
language in Christian texts,especially in the New Testament
that regards caring for orphansand widows. These are often
paired in Christianity asimportant, and obviously builds
on similar language that's inthe Hebrew Bible.

But a lot of language in the modern period of
Christian writing about adoptionfollows not the caring of
children, but the obligations ofa cis het marriage. Can't have a
baby? Get one. Look at thecapitalism and errand in the
system. That helps you fulfillyour duties. Since reproduction
is a goal of Christianmarriage--we know it isn't we're
summarizing the things we'veread--Christian God says, If you

(01:05:32):
can't make your own kid, storebought us fine.

Yeah, it's the Sandra D model of
fucking baby making. So thesalvation of the child, bringing
a Christian into a Christianhome and raising them to be
godly Christians, and thefulfillment of the obligations
of marriage--which is to sayfucking for
pregnancies--alongside the ideasof conversion and salvation...

(01:05:56):
this is a heady cocktail whereChristians view adoption very
favorably, but for reasons thatto this adoptee, are never about
the kid, they're always aboutthe people doing the adoption.
And it feels narcissistic, quitefrankly.

next time we're gonna keep breaking you so
sorry. No, it's not sorry, notthis is important, but it needs
to happen. It just hurts myentire soul, all right. But next
time, we're gonna do a whole loton religious freedom, more lack
thereof, which is where we'llabsolutely unpack the horrific
legacies of white Christianimperialism and adoption. That

(01:06:38):
is, that's just facts, and factsare facts. America, till then,
we got some reading. What wouldyou like to assign for homework?

Simpsons (01:06:47):
Homework? What homework

gang?
I'm gonna put a ton of resourceson the website. I've got too
many to just list out. Andfrankly, it's boring, and this
ran long, so I'm gonna keep itshort. I think of the of the
many, many that I have listedhere, there's a really great
book by Angela Tucker called Youshould be grateful stories of
race, identity and transracialadoption, that was just out this

(01:07:10):
spring with Beacon Press.
There's also them. We do knowthem, that we really do know
them. There's a bunch of reallypublicly accessible pieces I
specifically really like what weget wrong about adoption by
Gretchen Sisson and JessicaHarrison, which came out with
the nation a couple years ago.
Joel Kim booster, one of myfavorite comedians and fellow

(01:07:32):
adopter, Reno, has a great pieceabout his own identity that's
called no fats, no fems, noAsians, adventures and identity,
but the erstwhile toast, it isan oldie, but Goody, it's a
decade old, but it talks a lotabout this problematic identity
relationship for transracialadoptees, specifically those
taken from Korea in The late80s, early 90s. And then lastly,

(01:07:56):
I will cite kit Myers' piece,also a bit old at this point,
but still great, called realfamilies, the violence of love
and new media adoption,discourse. It's an article, but
I think it's, it's, it is publicaccess, so I'll stop there, but
I have probably triple that forthe show notes. Can confirm

I'm looking at them. Yeah, I have also really
appreciated Dr Lisa Monroe'svoice on this. She is a
historian of Latin America.
She's got a great open accessand really excessively written
article on nursing Clio calledBuried Secrets, living children,
secrecy, shame and sealedadoption records. So we'll point
you toward that as well. Today,I learned, by the way, the
phrase baby scoop, era B, S, E,which is from 1945 to 1973 in

(01:08:43):
what's now the US. I hateeverything, every single thing I
learn about this makes me morenauseated and angrier, and I
guess at least we're on brand.
So anyway, I appreciate that

you are someone who deals with
religious abuse, racism,misogyny and like, queer
phobias, and you can still behorrified by this. I actually
think the like, the affectiveresponse that both of us has is
important for our teaching here.
This is scary stuff,

so scary and again, so unaddressed. So I am
really glad that we are doingthis series, even though, and
I'm just going to admit this onon the pod. I started this
conversation by explaining to mydearest friend that mentally, I
have already packed the bong forthe evening because, like, I'm
gonna need a break. My brainneeds some medicine. Who?

Yeah?
I yeah, I drank a tall boy whilewe recorded I know,

and I'm proud of you be real, like both
personally and justesthetically, because the tall
boy really brought the wholeoutfit together. Because this is
an audio medium. You are all notin the position to see that
Elise is definitely dressed likea 1990 4b boy. And it's the
best, it's the best, it's

my.
True Self by true self, I lovethat. I

love that you have ascended anyway. You can
find us on across social media.
We're still on Twitter for themoment, reluctantly, we're on
Insta, we're on Tiktok, we're onFacebook, and if none of that
scoops your baby, you'rewelcome. We have newsletter you
can join via our website, whichis keeping it one on one.com,
drop us a rating or review inyour podcatcher of choice. If

you want
to invite us to your campus orlocal books, I'm sorry you got
me a baby. Thank you.

Thank you guys.
Really proud of that.

If you want to invite us to your
camper, I'm still stuck on scoopyour baby. Scoop some right up
gang. If you want us to comechat with you in person, reach
out to us, or Caitlin Meyer,who's our incredible marketing
of implicitly Maven over atBeacon, all of that data is on
the website, and we'd like tosee you. So yeah, tell us to

(01:10:51):
come on out with that. Peaceout. Nerds,

do your homework.
It's on the syllabus. Youhe has to keep for 1000 pennies.

(01:11:22):
You can work it out.

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