RELIGION & ADOPTION: Reproductive Freedom

In which Megan tries not to spend the whole hour screaming about Dobbs whilst we discuss what adoption has to do with religious freedom.

As always, be sure to visit keepingit101.com for full show notes, homework, transcripts, & more.

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Keeping It 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion is proud to be part of the Amplify Podcast Network.

Episode Transcript

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (00:17):
This is keeping it 101, a killjoys,
Introduction to religionpodcast, which is part of the
amplify Podcast Network, we'regrateful to live, teach and
record on the current ancestraland unceded lands of the Abenaki
and Wabanaki peoples, as well asthe lands of one federally
recognized native nation, theEastern Band of Cherokee
Indians, and seven NorthCarolina state recognized tribal
entities. Increasingly, though,native folks are pushing us to

(00:39):
forgo land acknowledgementsaltogether and focus on action
items. Let's start with landback. And as always, you can
find material ways to supportindigenous communities on our
website.

Megan Goodwin (00:49):
Yeah, what's up?
Nerds? Hi, hello. I'm MeganGoodwin. I'm a scholar of
American religions, race, genderand politics, and I just, I
can't wait to get into this. Hi,hello.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:00):
I'm Ilyse morgenstein Fuerst, a
historian of religion, Islam,race and racialization and South
Asia. And as a friendlyreminder, I'm an adoptee. Nerds.
On that note, we have a treatfor you today.

Megan Goodwin (01:15):
Sounds like a big promise. Are we doing something
fun today? What are we talkingabout?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:19):
Oh no, we're in our fourth installment
of religion, of the religion andadoption series. What's up? I'm
so excited.

Megan Goodwin (01:26):
Um, I have, I have a question, though. I

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:35):
What is it? What? What's your
question? What can I help youwith?

Megan Goodwin (01:38):
I--Okay. First of all, I love you. I love you so
much. But and and also, youridea of fun seems different than
mine.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:55):
I don't understand what you mean,
right? So we're on our

Megan Goodwin (02:00):
fourth episode of talking about a system that
steals children. From familiesand shows us white supremacy and
white Christian nationalismslash supersessionism in real
time and in like, ongoing andhorrifying, so horrifying ways.
And like this particularepisode, we're talking about how
adoption and reproductivejustice get all mixed up for
reasons of checking my notes,right? Okay, good, more white

(02:21):
Christian supremacy and alsoclassism and racism and misogyny
and ableism. How do I put thisis, is this fun for you? I mean,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:33):
I guess when you put it that way,
yes,

Megan Goodwin (02:37):
Ilyse, my beloved girl.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:41):
What look talking about, the things
that we think and study andresearch and teach about, it is
fun when the content is a stonecold bummer, which I will remind
you, is 100% of the time.

Megan Goodwin (02:55):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.
Lay on killjoy. Shall we getinto it? These episodes have
been, they have been long andYelly.
Yeah, they have and let's!,okay okay, okay, all right. All
right. Nerds, here's the lessonplan. We've talked to you about

(03:16):
how religions see parentless orguardianless children, and how
we personally fit into theseconversations. We've talked
about religious freedom as amajor element in the adoption
industry and around adoptionlaw, we heard from Dr Courtney
Lewis about the Indian ChildWelfare Act and the unique ways
native histories and livedrealities fit into our
conversation about adoption andreligion in what's now the US

(03:36):
and today, oh boy. We are endingon a real banger, adoption,
religion and reproductivehealthcare and justice.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (03:58):
Before we dive into this episode, we do
need to do some ground ruleswork. Yeah, my dear.

Megan Goodwin (04:04):
yes, please.
Yeah, okay. I agree. You know,you know, my brain loves it when
we we set an expectation. Sothis is one of those topics that
makes people reallyuncomfortable and often angry
and sad and loud and yeah, thishas the potential to poke at
some really intense bruising, soI think, if I may, but we need

(04:28):
to be clear about what thisepisode is and isn't at the top
with some renewed contentwarnings and explanations, like
our other adoption episodes,this one might hit hard If
you're an adoptee or an adoptiveparent or have experienced the
brutality of a system that deemssome people fit for parenting
and others not likewise, sincewe're talking about repro

(04:50):
justice and access to abortionas well as infertility, this is
a Venn diagram of highly chargedemotional stuff, and we just
want you to know that. Before weget moving.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fu (05:01):
Absolutely and honestly, dear nerds, it's
really important that we tellyou from the jump that we are
peddling facts, not feelings. Orwhen we have a feeling, which we
will we're going to name it as afeeling. So the difference
between this makes me feel awfulversus this awful thing happens,

(05:22):
and here's some receipts. Yeah,so here are some hard truths
that we're going to fill in forthe rest of this long episode
with facts. If these feel toooverwhelming to you, tap out. No
love lost. Take care of you.
We'll see you next time.

Megan Goodwin (05:35):
Yeah, we feel that these are hard facts to sit
with. So I'm going to suggest wetake a deep breath and we brace
ourselves for truths that makeour stomachs hurt. Ready, okay,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (05:50):
fact the first
solution for abortion, which is,incidentally, not a problem

a (05:58):
adoption is not a solution to infertility.

Megan Goodwin (06:08):
Okay, we're gonna come back around to both of
those statements in like 30seconds. But if you're not in a
place to hear those very factbased arguments, this is your
cue to turn us off. Highrecommend any podcast Joel Kim
booster is on, but maybe today,this particular podcast is not
the pod for you. All right, sothrowback our lesson plan for
today, IRMF, is to show thatwhile we might think of adoption

(06:30):
as part of an equation alongabortion and infertility, that
way of thinking is fully andutterly problematic, and acting
on that is fully and utterlyproblematic.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (06:41):
Yeah, and we've already said this, but
I genuinely think of this as aVenn diagram of cruel
disingenuousness. Folks who arepregnant and do not want to be
pregnant have several options,but frankly, one of them is not
staying pregnant until thatpregnancy resolves itself in a

(07:04):
birth.

Megan Goodwin (07:04):
no

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (07:05):
that is forced birth, full stop. If
you cannot stop being pregnantwhen you want to not be
pregnant, that is forced birth,even if the outcome doesn't
include forced parenting. Forcedbirth is still foul, still
awful, still sexist, stillmisogynist, and frankly, evil,

(07:28):
and it does not attend to thebiological realities that those
forced-to-be-born childrenexperience.

Megan Goodwin (07:36):
Yeah, okay, already, this is a lot.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (07:39):
I'm so sorry to have done this too.
Your face is so priceless, Imight have to, like, not look at
you, because you look so pained,and I just want to take care of
you, but also I shouldn't. I'mthe adoptee.

Megan Goodwin (07:52):
You are the adoptee, and I should look
pained by a painful system. Thisis fucked up. So, all right,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (07:59):
Oh right. I just smoothed right
over that again. Yeah, okay,okay.

Megan Goodwin (08:02):
I'm gonna feel my feelings, and I feel that this
is fucked up, because the factssay This is fucked up. Yeah? So
okay, I hear you saying thatadoption is not a solution to
unwanted pregnancies, but thisone's really counterintuitive,
since the regressive response tounwanted pregnancies is always
to suggest adoption. So whatdoes it mean to say adoption

(08:22):
isn't a fix or a solve forpreventing abortion? Why is this
the very first fact that we wantto lay down for this episode?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (08:29):
All right, I'm actually gonna like,
I gotta gather myself so I cango in order, because this is
convoluted and contradictory andit feels hypocritical or
anachronistic or something, butI swear to God, it's not Yeah,
yeah. Okay. Take your time.
Okay? In conversations aboutadoption, especially in
conversations where abortion isseen as an evil, bad thing or
even just an undesirable orunfortunate outcome, and

(08:54):
therefore adoption is seen as asolve to that evil or
unfortunate thing we are neverthinking about the child, never
the child is an object in thisequation. And I don't even mean
the way that a baby can bebought and sold. These are
slightly but not functionallydifferent, perhaps. I mean the

(09:15):
idea that you can take a babymoments after it is born. In
this particular version ofadoption, solving abortion, you
can take that baby away from theperson that birthed it, and that
baby will be like, literallyfine, with zero ramifications.
That framing is, frankly, it's alittle fucked up, yeah, and it's

(09:37):
actually not how any of thisworks. It is a fantasy.

Megan Goodwin (09:44):
yeah, okay, i this will shock you. I have many
thoughts, but I think I want tohear more from you on this. So
can you expand?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (09:53):
Okay, okay,

Megan Goodwin (09:54):
I know you got data.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (09:56):
How about we start with this?

Megan Goodwin (09:57):
There it is.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (09:58):
How about we start with this
absurd to me that we sell bioparents on the importance post
birth of skin to skin contact,of immediately bonding with your
newborn, of the way infants needa, b and c sounds so they can
feel comforted outside of theuterus and now in the real

(10:18):
world, or the way that we sellbio parents on knowing about
your own puberty and how itinforms your child's puberty,
the risks that we all take forgranted of genetic diseases
being a major reason to beinformed about our own bodies.
Frankly, the way insurancecompanies allow people to get
scans based on medical historythat adoptees never fucking

(10:40):
have. We sell bio parents on allof this, and I know because I am
a biological parent twice overand we pretend like that infant
taken from their parents uterusand put in someone else's arms
can go through all that withoutramifications, both immediate

(11:00):
and long term. Now that shouldsound logically cuckoo crazy,
but it's also medically stupid,because let me just list out
some medical facts for you,Yeah, we've got so much to go
over, so I don't want to get

Megan Goodwin (11:11):
please!

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (11:11):
and I'm going to put all these in
the show notes, but there arenumerous medical studies
published in like the NewEngland Journal of Medicine and
the American Academy ofPediatrics journals like actual
medical surveys that state thatthere are health disparities
between adoptees and nonadoptees, which appear over the

(11:34):
life of the adoptee. Some ofthese factors include the stress
it causes newborns to beseparated from the birthing
parent, about the unique medicalcare of adoptees at any age, in
light of incomplete or missingmedical records, there's
disparity or facts around infantadoptees being more prone to

(11:55):
colic, which, if you've neverexperienced a colicky baby, good
on you. But if you have, youknow what the ninth circle of
hell is. It is that. There arefacts around adoptees being more
prone to PTSD and cptsd, to saynothing of perfectionism and
OCD. There are studies aboutadoptees needing medical care

(12:16):
that reflects their status asadoptees but not having access
to it. There are long termmental health disparities that
last the life of the adoptee,and those mental health
disparities increase if theadoptee had been in multiple
placements or without aplacement for longer periods of

(12:36):
time, or, importantly, are ofdiffering races from their
adoptive parents. And we knowthat adoptees are subject to
quite a lot of medicalscreening, but that is not for
their benefit. Those are forissues of public health,
especially in the case ofinternational adoption, or in
the interest of suitability, asin maybe this child isn't well

(13:00):
or able enough to be adoptedoutright. All of this is to say
Megan, we, as a community and asociety, pretend that the
handing over of a literalbaby--again, if we're thinking
about adoption as a solution toabortion, we are imagining the
passing off of an infant. We arepretending that that passing off

(13:22):
is maybe easy or hard oremotional for the birth parent,
we assume it is joyful for theadoptive parent or parents, and
we stop there. In reality,though, that adopted child bears
the mark of their adoption intheir bodies, statistically
speaking, even if everyone isdoing their best and loving on

(13:43):
this kid, infinitely. Adoption,fundamentally re scripts that
child's life, socioculturally,absolutely, but biologically to
a very particular degree.

Megan Goodwin (13:58):
nobody. Nobody thinks about the kid as a human
bogged down here, but I thinkthe piece that we're going to
just come keep coming back toover and over again is adoption
is a system that doesn't takeadoptees seriously as humans, as
vulnerable humans who deserverespect and to be thought of as
person, it is something to bepassed from one adult to

(14:22):
fully human. It just it's, it isa thing that I know, and yet
every single piece of this justunderscores that, that the
adoptee is notanother, and that is hard to

(14:45):
know.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (14:51):
Yeah, I want to be clear as we kind of
move through our data of likethings that are hard to know. I.
I am not anti adoption. We arenot anti adoption. So I'm gonna
say that with my whole asschest. Ilyse Rian Morgenstein

(15:11):
Fuerst, sometimes known as bug,sometimes known as mama,
occasionally known as blank, isnot anti adoption. What I am,
and I think what we are as apodcast, is really anti the
system of adoption, whichrenders adoptees like me
invisible, even when they arealso insanely commodified and

(15:34):
celebrated. You can't just claimthat an infant knows its mom
when it's born, which is a quotefrom the delivery nurse when I
met my firstborn child, and alsoclaimed that it's no big deal
for that very same infant to beplaced with someone else at some
other time, maybe in the future.
Logically, I really hopeeveryone can hear how fallacious

(15:55):
that is. Ethically, I hope youhear how fucking crap that is
and factually, it just doesn'tline up with medical study after
medical study after medicalstudy. It just doesn't hold
water,

Megan Goodwin (16:10):
right? Adoption is traumatic for an infant
that's taken from its biologicalparent, and that trauma lives in
the body, right? So, as we'vebeen saying across these
episodes, adoptees are so oftenmissing from the conversations
about adoption precisely becausetheir testimony can and often
does totally derail ourmainstream understanding that

(16:31):
adoption is good and like nobleeven. But I want to get deeper
into why we're insisting thatadoption isn't a or the solution
for abortion as our first likedebunking moment, oh, it's an
incorrect flashback, bless,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (16:43):
yeah, let's do that.

Megan Goodwin (16:50):
All right, so as our rider dies, know we've
already talked about religionand reproductive justice, or
access to abortion and birthcontrol care in Fifth Season,
Episode 502, and you know thatthis pod is extremely pro
abortion on demand. We loveabortion. We are fucking
ecstatic about bodily autonomyin theory anyway, since we live

(17:11):
in a country that has neveractually granted pregnable
people actual bodily autonomy,this is largely theoretical, but
it seems nice, yeah, yeah, andwe're gonna keep fighting like
hell to get there, right? Okay,so abortion fucking great.
Abortion is literally not aproblem. Abortion is healthcare,
and thus abortion requires nosolution. SCOTUS, on the other

(17:34):
hand, but I digress, right? Sodefinitionally, adoption cannot
be a solution to abortion,because abortion is a solution
to being pregnant when one doesnot want to be pregnant.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (17:48):
And frankly, as a society, we can
and should argue that the onlysolution to being pregnant when
you don't want to be pregnant isabortion.

Megan Goodwin (17:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's the thing, right?
Adoption cannot be a solution toabortion, because, as we've
already said, A, of all,abortion is not a problem, or,
sorry, abortion is only aproblem for theocratic
lawmakers. And B, of all,adoption does not solve the
problem of not wanting to bepregnant. So how do these

(18:17):
separate issues wind up allswirlled together in our Uteri?
It's horrifying, right there,smacking the computer about my
horror. Yeah, stop us, as ifyou've heard this one before,
nerds, I think it's swirlledtogether, because patriarchy and
imperialism and in this country,absolutely white Christian
nationalism. The answer,frankly, is just about always
white Christian nationalism. Andso we conflate adoption and

(18:39):
abortion in a post roe world. Sowe lost roe with a Dobbs
decision in 2022 it's stillfairly recent, still real sore.
We conflate adoption andabortion for a couple reasons.
So before 1973 before Roe, themess of adoption and abortion
was another matter altogether.
If you listen to the adoptionand religious freedom episode,

(18:59):
you'll remember that the pre roemess involved the stealing of
babies outright.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (19:04):
Sure did

Megan Goodwin (19:06):
baby scoop.
But from 1973 to 2000 or 2022when we had national access more
or less to abortion, sort of,kind of, during this period, a
ragtag team of unlikelybedfellows banded together to
insist that unwanted pregnanciescan and should yield children
for people who want them thisother, worser a-team included

(19:31):
the adoption industry, antiabortion advocates and people
struggling with infertility andlater, same sex couples seeking
to expand their families withChildren, all of whom were eager
to, dare I say, scoop upany--I'm never letting that go.
The baby scoop era has justdestroyed my brain--So they're
scooping up any spare,unaccounted for infants,

(19:51):
domestically supplied orotherwise, whose existence
resulted from unwantedpregnancies.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (19:57):
It's a classic supply chain scenario.
Yeah, Megan, I I kind of sense alist coming on.

Megan Goodwin (20:03):
You know me so well,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (20:05):
my memory is long.

Megan Goodwin (20:11):
Yeah, okay, okay, all right, so after Roe in 1973
you see a real shift in languageand realities around unwanted
pregnancies before, whenabortion was illegal in the US,
birthing centers for unwedmothers proliferated, the idea
being that you could check inpregnant, hide the end of the
unhideable Pregnancy, givebirth, recover, hand the baby
over and return your previouslyscheduled life. Lots of these

(20:33):
homes for unwed mothers were runby Christian and especially
Catholic organizations. Manyhave since come under fire and
scrutiny for their roles incoercing, cajoling, or just
straight up lying to pregnant orrecently pregnant women so they
could acquire the baby.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (20:49):
Yeah, that's exactly what happened,

Megan Goodwin (20:52):
which, like, almost makes me want to ask my
mom where she gave birth to herfirst child, but that would
mean, like, require me talkingto her, so I and the nerds at
home will never knowThis is not the
time. Check out episode 502. Formore of them this mishegoss, I'm

(21:17):
really trying to keep it in mypants. But after Roe when you
couldn't just punish people forhaving become pregnant, when
they didn't want to be pregnant,as if that's a one woman sport,
women are just like, Oops, got apregnant.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (21:31):
I budded by accident.

Megan Goodwin (21:33):
My bad! right? So during the period after row, so
post 1973 opposition to abortionwas a big part of how
conservative white Christianpoliticos came to be known as
the Moral Majority, or the newChristian Right, including,
fascinatingly, Catholics, forthe first time in US history,
being invited to play politicswith white evangelicals.
Again, we don't have time to getinto this For more, please see

(21:53):
my published worksfor these dudes and dudes here
includes that expletive deletedPhyllis Schlafly abortion was a
problem, and not only because itlet hussies such as myself Huss
about, presumably withoutconsequence, but also legal
constitutional abortion, itmeant that suddenly there
weren't enough impregnatedhussies popping out unwanted

(22:15):
babies whomst could then besnatched up by Nice white
Christian folks to raise in nicewhite Christian homes. These
hussies, with their SupremeCourt backing and their access
to reproductive health care,were in short, fucking up the
supply chain. This conservativewhite Christian political
movement needed to giveunwilling pregnant people a way
to remain pregnant but not haveto parent. Enter adoption. Yeah,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (22:45):
yeah, enter adoption. Indeed. Megan,
I'm gonna say something thatI've said in a few places now,
and that I have said for a longtime to you and anyone who will
listen, because this moralmajority framing of unwanted
pregnancies as an opportunity toflood a market with wanted

(23:09):
children, just not by the peoplewho made them is so hella fucked
and so demonstrative of howfucked our society is. It's just
this. It's just a falserelationship between abortion
and adoption. And the thing is,is that in a fully functioning
realized society, there shouldliterally be no orphans, no

(23:31):
unwanted children, and thereforeno adoptions, period. Yeah, in a
fully functioning realizedsociety, people who can
reproduce would have easy accessto reproductive technologies so
that no pregnancy would beunwanted, whether accidental or
coerced. In a fully functioningrealized society, people who
chose to give birth would findsocietal safety nets in place

(23:53):
like healthcare, childcare,guaranteed and/or thrivable
income. In a fully functioning,realized society, children who
had parents who could no longertake care of them for whatever
reason, medical, maybe likeaddiction or medical like they
die, or trauma, like abuse, yeahwould not be seen as a systemic

(24:13):
issue to fix, but rather aharmed and vulnerable child to
care for. Yeah, claims thatabortion are evil. They're just
bankrupt and stupid, and I gottabe honest, and I'm coming for
you goyim, um, they're fuckingbackward and barbaric. They are
fundamentally incorrect. Butclaims that adoption solves

(24:36):
abortion make me see red,because in a fully functioning
society, predominantly women,though not exclusively, would
not have to choose between theirlives, livelihoods, bodily
autonomy, bodily health, orraising a child, which is
insanely expensive, demandingand inevitably affects every
single aspect of a parent'sthough, especially the birthing

(24:57):
parents life.

Megan Goodwin (24:58):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, what feels so disingenuous about
the link up between abortion andadoption is that it ignores the
material reality of people whoare seeking abortions.
Overwhelmingly, people who areseeking abortions are already
parents. And when I sayoverwhelmingly, I mean the
majority, 60 plus percent, ofpeople who seek out abortions

(25:18):
and get them are alreadyparents. They have more than one
child. Usually, they do not havethe resources, which is money,
obviously, but also time,attention, bandwidth, to raise a
child. Well, they are not endinga pregnancy because they hate
kids or they don't want kids.
They are ending a pregnancybecause, overwhelmingly, they
already have at least one child.

(25:40):
They know what it is to raise achild, and they don't feel that
they can do what needs to bedone to care for another child.
Well, the overwhelming majorityof people who seek and get
abortions do not, do not, do notregret their choices. Some might

(26:00):
wrestle with it in a variety ofways, but statistically, based
on survey data, most people whoget abortions simply do not
regret the choice immediately oryears after the procedure. There
are more people out thereregretting JK Rowling tattoos
than there are regretting theirabortions

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (26:20):
well, and as the news has hit in the
last day, Amber Thurman, a blackmother who started a medical
abortion using pills, was deniedcare in Georgia because that
abortion did not fully clear, soshe had unviable, dead fetal

(26:40):
tissue in her uterus, whichcaused sepsis, which caused an
eight day ramp to death. And soanyone who is telling me, anyone
who was saying anything exceptWow, what a what a barbaric
system. You're wrong. She wouldnot have regretted that
abortion. She would haveregretted having a child, yeah,

(27:01):
and now her son has to regretthat a system was happy to kill
his mother, yeah?

Megan Goodwin (27:04):
Well, and some of the conversation that I've been
seeing pop up around this islike, sepsis is an infection.
100% of folks who cannot getpregnant, who show up with an
infection to the hospital gettreated for that infection.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (27:17):
That's right, but because it was self
inflicted, it wasn't allowed,but I have news for you. If you
attempt suicide, the hospital isrequired to treat you. Yeah? So
we've already done areproductive justice episode,
but when you see the Venndiagram of horror, I want you to
know that dead mom waspreferable to aborted fetus.

Megan Goodwin (27:42):
Yeah, no, that's horrible. It's horrible. Here's
the thing, very few people whohave abortions regret having
abortions. This is not actuallythe case with adoption,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (27:56):
not at all.

Megan Goodwin (27:59):
And this is something that I learned because
of the research that you did forus the literature over the last
40 years so one or ago, ispretty clear that birth parents
can experience both satisfactionand confidence in their choice
to relinquish their child, andalso a hell of a lot of regret
and sadness and rage and anger.
Mothers who relinquish theirchildren report over a wide
range of surveys some regretabout that decision, and that is

(28:20):
made worse by socioculturalfactors like coercion, Age of
pregnancy, how successful or nottheir life has been since they
gave birth, educational status,class and tellingly, religious
guilt or shame.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (28:34):
Yeah, so Goodwin, what I hear you
recapping for us or saying forus is that the overwhelming
majority of people who seek andreceive abortions never regret
their choice if they're allowedto live afterwards, wow, but a
majority of people who give uptheir biological children for
adoption do regret that choice.
Yeah.

Megan Goodwin (28:54):
I mean, that's again, we can feel however we
want to feel about that, butthose are the facts that the
research gives us, we can'tclaim otherwise. It is just that
simple. Abortion is good,actually. Adoption is
complicated for everybodyinvolved. That's a fact,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuers (29:15):
however complicated it is, it is still
not a solution to abortion,nope.
As we transition into the nextthe next data point, Megan, I
just want to revisit the senseof a fully functioning realized

(29:36):
society, because in a fullyfunctioning realized society
this false dichotomy wouldn'thave to exist in the first
place, because we would not haveorphans or unwanted pregnancies
and we would not have a babytrade fixated on making sure
parentless children existed inrelationship to demand. Yeah.

(30:00):
Goodwin, I gotta say, as wemake, like, a hard left, this is
going to be the part where folksare going to be big, big, mad,
or, like, maybe and, or deep intheir feels.

Megan Goodwin (30:12):
yeah, yeah. I mean yes, because this is a
segment where we're going totalk about infertility, which
is, it's so, so hard. And I wantto name that that grief is
really real. Not being able toadd to your family when you want
to can feel like a betrayal onso many levels, especially for
CIS het couples, or for coupleswhere one partner can

(30:32):
theoretically get pregnant. Thatbody horror, my body should be
able to do this and can't orwon't. That horror is a real,
true thing to grieve. I And weas a podcast do not want to
dismiss or minimize that rageand grief and frustration and
sorrow, so let us take anotherdeep breath before we share
another hard truth. All right,here it is, adoption is also not

(30:59):
a solution to infertility. Someof you are going to feel that
statement of fact in your bones.
Some of you are really fuckingangry at me right now for having
said that, and your feelings arevalid. You should go ahead and
feel them, and also yourfeelings about infertility while
so so valid and so, so painful.

(31:23):
Those feelings are not facts.
Here is a fact. Adoption is thesolution to a child without a
permanent home, withoutpermanent caregivers. That's it,
and that's all end up. One ofthe hardest parts in thinking
critically about religion andadoption is that so often
wanting to adopt, to grow afamily comes from the absolute
best parts of ourselves, thetruest and purest desire to love

(31:46):
and care well for another, anunimaginably vulnerable human
being, that, to my mind, ishumanity at its absolute most
human, and I honor and I cherishand I celebrate that desire. But
again, adoption is the solutionto a child without a permanent
home, without permanentcaregivers. Finding a child a

(32:08):
permanent home and permanentcare is the problem adoption
tries to solve. Adoption is notand should not be a solution for
adult humans who just wantsomething real, real bad, even
if that want comes from the bestplaces in us. Adoption is not a
fix for infertility. Infertilityhas other solutions, or, in many

(32:30):
cases, frankly, no solution.
That's hard, that fucking sucks,that's devastating. And we both
have people that we deeply,deeply care about that have
struggled with infertility thatis very real, and we mourn with
them. It feels so, so unfair,because it is unfair. Life is

(32:51):
not fair. You cannot fixinfertility or injustice by
acquiring a child through aharmful, unjust system based in
white Christian nationalism, nomatter how pure your intentions
are, and no matter how much youlove the stuffing out of that
kid, adoption is a harmful,violent, racist system
perpetuated by white Christiannationalist thinking that is a
fact, a hard, sad, infuriatingfact.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (33:14):
Yeah, ooh, hearing all that in your
voice instead of mine is likedoing a thing. But look Megan in
a fully functioning, realizedsociety. Yeah, child, a child
without parents, an orphan,would not exist for all the
reasons I said before, butmostly, mostly because we, the

(33:37):
community around that child,would find it morally, ethically
and structurally corrupt to justaccept wholesale that some kids
just don't have permanentcaretakers or homes. Yeah? Like,
I want us to have a deep pausefor a second we accept that
there simply are babies andchildren with no one to care for

(34:01):
them, we just accept that, yeah,and that's fucking depraved
societally, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ijust like, the genuine
revolution is not matching upthose babies with people who
want one real bad, like they'rea fucking care bear or, like, a

(34:22):
Tickle Me Elmo,

Megan Goodwin (34:23):
I was actually in a edge in a Cabbage Patch Kid
situation. Since I'm old enoughto have participated in the
first baby scoop Cabbage Patchmoment, I had one of the very
first and, like, cabbage

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (34:35):
patch has really fucked

Megan Goodwin (34:36):
me up. Yeah, I mean, but trying to stay on
target, I just this countryhates kids so damn bad, like it
just fail kids at every singlegoddamn opportunity. And
frankly, I think in large partbecause we don't think of them
as fully human beings. They arepossessions. They are problems

(34:56):
to be solved, but they are nothumans with inherent dignity.
Right, and even putting asidethis staggering levels of abuse
that happen in foster systemsand adoptive homes, nothing
about the system puts the childfirst, nothing about this. Focus
is on the child who is avulnerable human being growing

(35:17):
up in ways meant to ensure theirsurvival and flourishing. And I
hate that a lot. I hate it somuch.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (35:23):
Yeah, but like to continue with my
little rant, yeah, in a fullyfunctioning, realized society,
people who wanted children wouldhave medical, financial and
social supports to exploretreatments like IVF or
strategies like surrogacy or towork within open, fluid,

(35:44):
adoptive practices that reflectbest care for the child and the
child that will become an adult,while also attending to the very
real circumstances in which abirth parent may not Be able to
raise that child primarily likefor real in a fully functioning,
realized society, just as therewould be no Guardian list

(36:07):
children, so too there would besupports for people who struggle
with the very real and extremelydevastating complications of
infertility.

Megan Goodwin (36:17):
But Goodwin, yeah,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (36:19):
in my idealized utopic, fully
functioning, realized society,prioritizing a child and
understanding that adoption isneither a solution to
infertility nor abortion stillmeans that people who cannot
reproduce biologically might notget to have a child at all.
Yeah,

Megan Goodwin (36:39):
and this is where I see things get like really
fucking ugly for you, frankly,particularly on social media.
But it's not just ugly to you.
Elise, it is truly unfathomablyvicious toward adoptees talking
about how what they went throughthe system that processed them

(36:59):
and trafficked them has harmedthem, like the vitriol on
Twitter and Tiktok when adopteesspeak about their own
experiences from their ownexperiences, and then the number
of people who cannot have theirown children just dog piling
about How insensitive it is thatadoptees would criticize

(37:20):
adoption, it's so it's so hardand so rage inducing to watch.
But guess what? Sometimes bodiesdo not do what we want them to
do, at least. I bet you loadlike your joints to stop
deteriorating. I would reallyappreciate that. That'd be
great. I feel like that would begreat for you. I myself,

(37:42):
personally, would love to nothave MS, yeah,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (37:46):
yeah.
I would also want that for you.
Where do I Who do

Megan Goodwin (37:49):
I yell at on tic tac to make that happen? Because
I'm

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuers (37:53):
curious if it's other people with MS, I
bet it is adoptees. Yeah, I'mgood at being yelled at.

Megan Goodwin (37:59):
Oh, no. Anyway, bodies are kind of little
bitches to us sometimes, yeah,yeah, but yeah, internalized
ableisms aside, here once again,are the facts. We have grieved
our bodies. We have grieved oursense of what should have been.
We still do even as we try tomeet our bodies where they are
and help them work as best theycan. But none of our grief about

(38:26):
our bodies doing what bodies do,which is fail, entitles us to
some new model. And frankly,these trolls on the internet,
who I really do imagine arespeaking from a place of pain
and hurt and trauma, but theyfeel entitled. They feel
entitled to a child and havingbeen betrayed, please hear the

(38:47):
scare quotes by their ownbodies. Feel entitled to tell
adoptees how that betrayal isfar more pertinent than the
experience of being adopted.
Yeah,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (38:57):
and look, I've got nothing but
empathy for folks managing anddealing with both the grief and
the rage and, like, the physicalhorror, yeah, of infertility.
But I have to admit, gang, Ihave very little sympathy, even
while I can maintain empathy,knowing full well that I'll be

(39:17):
yelled at, because this is kindof how this goes for me, and
that's fine, but like literally,no one is owed a child, whether
your bits work or they don't, noone is owed a fucking child. Not
cis het couples managing anynumber of reproductive system
issues that prevent gettingpregnant, not queer couples who
don't have the bits and parts toprocreate within that

(39:38):
relationship, not single womenor men or envies who want to
share their love with a smallhuman. No one is entitled A
child. A child is a person, nota toy, not a status symbol, not
a life milestone to achieve, notan object, not a blankie, not a
salve, not a solution. Anadoptee is a human independent

(40:03):
of whose needs they fulfill. AndI hope you can hear nerds that I
have, I have nothing but rageand lots of therapy bills about
the way that we talk about aninability to have children as
somehow the worst fate that canbefall an adult, such that we
start to see children andliterally seconds old infants as

(40:26):
commodities. It's, it's really,it's insane. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Megan Goodwin (40:37):
right. Okay, so this, this is a good place to do
two things. First, a note onqueers, children and adoption.
The second, we're going to sitwith what it means to have
weaponized someone's medical orrelational status, the inability
to have children such thatsomeone's entire life is
rendered in the service ofattending to that status.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (40:56):
I love starting with queers have had a
good one. Same

Megan Goodwin (40:59):
All right, because we haven't picked enough
fights already today. Let's talkabout queerness and whiteness
and the way that white queersare often not willing to
confront their own positions ofprivilege. Again, this shit is
tricky. Experiences of privilegeand oppression can and do
overlap. We talked about this 1trillion years ago when we
tackled intersectionality inseason two. This episode is
already a hell of long, so I'mnot going to do my whole rant

(41:21):
about the way that HRC gays soldout act up and many, many other
queer political goals to focuson getting their wedding
announcements in the times, butthey did, though, I know, but I
shouldn't have giggled likethat. Well, I think what I want
to say is that none of us, notone of us, is owed the human
products of someone else's humanbody, no matter how much

(41:42):
oppression we have faced, nomatter how badly we might want a
certain kind of family. Kratosis a lot of things, and one of
those things is an imperative torethink family and kinship. Many
of us have had to fight so hardwith everything in us to create
family and kinship networksbecause our initial situations
did not want us to be us. Got tome too, but we are us, Blanche.

(42:06):
We are and we became us byfinding new ways to make family,
to create a home for who wereally are, whatever else it is,
adoption is an exploitativesystem rooted in white Christian
nationalism. This is a fact, andit queer people. So many of us

(42:28):
have worked so so hard todistance and heal ourselves from
churches and other institutionsrooted in white Christian
nationalism. We don't need toparticipate in an unjust and
exploitative system to createfamilies. Creating families is
what we do. So if your argumentabout adoption is, but I really,
really want a kid, and how elsedo I get mine? Please go to a

(42:51):
corner and just have everysingle seat.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (42:56):
Yeah, I have for a long time, thought
that adoptees and queer folk,those are not mutually
exclusive. Bubbles are reallygood at building families, yeah,
because we know that biologyactually doesn't mean shit,
except medically, right?

Megan Goodwin (43:12):
Except medically

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (43:14):
at the same time, I'll say like totally
as a response to this, nothingfeels as painful as when
specifically gay men come for meon the internet as a homophobe,
yeah, because I really questionthe entitlement to systems of

(43:36):
adoption. Yeah, I have neveronce done anything except
advocate for queer couples to beable to adopt. I do think that
that is absolutely true, yeah,but, but I also know that no one
is entitled A baby, yeah? Andwhen I watch, frankly, some of
my dearest friends complainabout how expensive it is, the

(43:59):
way that my stomach falls out ofmy ass is intense, because
rolling your eyes about somedisposable income that you're
using to pick out a baby isreally fucked up and
insensitive, and no amount ofsocietal hate or threat to your
bodily autonomy entitles you toaggrieve someone else's

Megan Goodwin (44:23):
well. And I think, I don't think I
articulated to myself until thisvery moment, this very today, is
that for so many of us, theexperience of being queer is an
experience of not being wantedby your family, by the family
that birthed you. So to tellother people who were not wanted

(44:46):
or able to be kept by the familythat birthed them that their
feelings are less important,their experiences are less
important. Their trauma is lessimportant than your desire to
make your own family. Thatfucking sucks. I hate that. I
hate that a lot bad.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (45:01):
It's really bad. I, for real, cut
someone out of my universebecause they insisted that being
gay was way more traumatic thanbeing adopted. And I was like, I
don't really think we win atmisery poker, no. But also, your
insurance company is not denyingyou a a mammogram, right?
Because you don't have a historyof breast cancer to prove right,

(45:24):
like structurally andmaterially, there are things
that I experience that unlessyou're also a gay adoptee,
you're not experiencing as partof the system of hate against
you. But no one wins at miserypoker, and also you certainly
don't win a fucking baby, right?
A baby is not a prize. It's notup for auntie, yeah, it is not
up for auntie, yeah. And also,if a baby is purchasable, I

(45:45):
just, I have questions aboutyour feelings about enslavement.
Goodwin, you said the secondthing we need to talk about,
since we're already I hearmyself getting ranty. Keep us on
the outline. Okay, the secondthing you said we needed to talk

(46:07):
about after we let the queers gofirst is that we have to sit
with the fact of infertility, orsimply an inability to have
kids, and how that erases actualchildren. Yeah, yeah. Say more.

Megan Goodwin (46:21):
Okay, well, so I'm this first came up in a
conversation about abuse thathappens in families. I have been
sitting for years with somethingthat friend of the pod and my
personal best bet, Lissa Harris,said that in conversations about
caring for or protectingchildren, somehow the children

(46:43):
never get to be people. Thechildren are always instead the
football in a game they neverasked to play. So when we talk
about caring for children, wenever actually include children.
Children never get to be peopleon their own or even imagined as
future adults. And honestly, alot of the conversation about
adoption as a solution forinfertility strikes me this way,

(47:05):
like it's all too convenient inthis narrative, a birth parent
doesn't want the child, so,like, just as calmly pregnant,
because that's totally easy on abody for nine full months, and
then just casually, after havingdone nine months of literal hard
labor, just casually hands overthe product of that labor. IE, a

(47:25):
human child which doesn't knowanything. And I, you know,
whatever it's it's just there.
And then this baby solves allthe problems of the recipient of
the baby, and infertile, or wellhealed, or whatever, a couple or
individual. And the baby here isjust, like, it's just, it is a
football. It is being handedover. There's no imagination of
the baby being a human person.

(47:48):
It's like, you had extra pie,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (47:51):
yeah?
And you're like, a really goodsharer, yeah? And I have to say,
that incidentalness, yeah, isreally painful. Yeah, it's why I
never engage trolls, but willabsolutely seek and destroy,
usually, a random womanstruggling with infertility Who
is screaming on the internet atan adoptee, and often that

(48:12):
adoptee is an internationaladoptee, which means they're
usually a person of color,because, of course, race and
gender matter here too. It'salso just all of that, that
narrative of like, perfectlywilling birth mom who, like,
makes it through one of the mostdangerous things anyone does

(48:33):
with their body, unscathed, noproblem, no postpartum
depression or anxiety, noinfection, like all of that. The
passing of the baby is this likeangelic thing that you could put
in one of those fucking preciousmoments, little porcelain stick
dolls. It's just all in theservice. It's lies in the

(48:53):
service of white Christiannationalism. We said we'd get
back to the top. So here we are,gang fulfilling our promises.
Hmm, in 2008 the CDC issued areport about the adoption
experiences of adoptive or wouldbe adoptive parents. It is the
most recent survey from the CDCon this problem. And it's it's
grim Megan. It is grim in partbecause it feels really painful

(49:18):
to me. This is a feeling, not afact. It is painful to read a
section of the CDC report thatlists what adoptive parents
would want in a child, literallytitling the table of relevant
data quote characteristics ofthe child that women would
prefer or accept whenconsidering adoption.

Megan Goodwin (49:44):
End quote, so like you're at the Crate and
Barrel outlet and sure that babyhas some dings, but I guess
it'll do, yeah, what

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (49:49):
would you accept? What would you
accept putting that in Oprahterms for a second, what is the
least you would accept? Oh. Areyou fucking kidding me? And this
is a survey run by ourgovernment about women who are
seeking to acquire a dinged upCrate and Barrel plate. Okay,

(50:14):
look, here's the thing I know.
I'm a hot commodity. My husbandis lucky to have locked this
shit down 20 years ago. Myparents locked it down 41 years
ago, Mazel getting it on theground floor. But the anguish,
like the actual anguish, itcauses me to read a list of
desirable qualities that wouldmake a child worthy of
consideration, not acceptance,not adoption consideration. I

(50:40):
will keep you on the list. Thisis like, when you buy a flight
and it's like, compare options.
Do you want more leg Oh, thatscene doesn't come with more leg
room. I think I'll pass

Megan Goodwin (50:55):
it's just it's messed up. Yeah. And it's

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuer (50:59):
evidence to me that we do not live in a
fully functioning, realizedsociety, but it is also evidence
to me that we are never thinkingabout the product of that
exchange. That child who mighthave been desirable, or might
have had eight out of 15desirable qualities, eventually
grows up into an angry 40 fun,41 year old professor of

(51:22):
religion. Not all yes, but someof us,

Megan Goodwin (51:26):
yes, you do.
Yeah. Okay, so in that same CDCreport, like I needed another
reason to be fuckingdisappointed in the CDC. But
let's do this. We get a phrasethat made many around in 2022
before and after the Dobbsdecision disenfranchised half
the damn country. Look at ustying adoption and abortion and
infertility together, bringingit together. The 2008 CDC report
has this line in it, this littlegem, nearly 1 million women were

(51:51):
seeking to adopt children in2002 that is, they were in
demand for a child, whereas thedomestic supply of infants
relinquished at birth or withinthe first month of life and
available to be adopted hadbecome virtually non existent,
domestic supply of infants. Thatphrase blew up the damn internet

(52:15):
when a memo leaking the Dobbsdecision was made public. In
that memo, Justice Alito citesthis very CDC report. Let's
unpack this like it's a storytime from yesteryear, keeping it
101, what the CDC said in itsadoptive it, what the CDC said
in its study of adoptive andwant to be adoptive parents, is
that in 2002 nearly 1 millionwomen wanted to adopt, but there

(52:38):
were no available us sourcedbabies to fill that demand.
These bitches are just trying toshop local. Why are we mad at
them? Because

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (52:50):
I'm sorry, there's a really serious
part of the podcast.

Megan Goodwin (52:54):
This is what we do, just like there's no way to
read domestic supply of infants.
That is not about supply global

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (53:02):
is hilarious when applying to

Megan Goodwin (53:05):
you want them to have organic babies, and then
Alito citing this is part of theNo More abortions ruling in
Dobbs. We've been trying allepisode to Parson dissing
ambiguous adoption, abortion andinfertility and the Supreme
Court and the Centers forDisease Control, they don't see
them as separate issues. Theissue is, ladies overwhelmingly

(53:29):
white, ladies overwhelminglywhite, Christian ladies want to
adopt. Where are their organic,local, free range babies?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (53:37):
Yeah.
Look, the reality is barringabortions and saving children in
the biggest scare quotes youever seen are fundamentally
Christianity. That's justChristianity wholesale, and the
ideological constraintssurrounding adoption are rooted

(53:58):
in these religious precepts, allof it, every single part of it,
presumes to prioritize adults,yep, even for the wild goyum,
who think abortion is badbecause that so called Child
fucking fetus might have beensaved, but then isn't so it goes
to hell like, Look Megan, I'mnot one to come for people's

(54:19):
theology. I do this for aliving. I think all theology is
a little wacky, wacky, but thatthe child that never took a
breath of air is also somehowgoing to hell, and that's
everyone's fault. I look in themirror like we need to have some
deep thinking about the illogicof that and, frankly, the
cruelty of that. But fine,that's a separate Ilyse feelings
issue,

Megan Goodwin (54:42):
how Elise feels about the pope coming to you
spring 2025

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuers (54:48):
anyway, the not feelings piece of it is
we have needed to unpack howtangled these ideas are, because
of the US is history and ongoingrelationships with Christian.
Imperialism full stop.

Megan Goodwin (55:02):
Yes, yes. I need you to know that I am trying so
hard not to utterly lose myselfin dog screaming and the way
that this decision is smotheredand covered with white Christian
nationalism, plus now I get tobe mad that it offers adoption
as a solution to abortion,which, as we damn well know, is
not a problem that needs solvingso much as healthcare for people
who don't want to be pregnant,but that is taking up all my

(55:23):
energy, so we should probablyland this plane. Yeah, yeah. All
right. So we're going to do ashorty episode that sums up this
religion and adoption miniseries nerd. So stay tuned for
that. For now, let's justunderline the episode's main
points. Point the first adoptionin what's now the US, no matter
what else it is or could be, hasalways, always been about making

(55:45):
sure that nice white AmericanChristian families can raise the
maximum amount of nice whiteAmerican Christian children,
which is why point the second,especially after roe codified
the constitutional right toabortion in 1973 regressive
white Christian nationalistsfought hard to insist that
adoption was the solution to theproblem they thought abortion
was and point the third, this isalso how the proposal of

(56:08):
adoption as a solution toinfertility also really picks up
steam. Yeah,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (56:13):
and that Venn Diagram of horror
still does not tell us anythingabout the people who are
directly and primarily theinheritors of this system, the
domestically so everyone intheory, gets what they want,
except the domesticallysupplied, or frankly,
internationally supplied,hoarded versus

Megan Goodwin (56:36):
adoptee. So exotic, right?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuers (56:38):
Because in that equation, a pregnant
person has to remain pregnant,they are forced to give birth,
but they are not forced toparent. Okay, partial victory,
the infertile person. Couple,whomever gets a baby, the baby
is, in theory, the problem thathas been solved, except none of

(57:02):
it actually attends to theongoing medical and sociological
issues that adoptees face,including, but not limited to
basic things like not knowing iftheir mother had breast cancer
or developed breast cancer orcolon cancer or mental illness
or had a mustache that they gotwaxed a lot like none of that

(57:24):
longitudinal genetic informationgets passed on in the system of
closed adoptions currentlyoperating in the United States.
But also none of the like thismatters who you are and what
your history is matters getserased for adoptees and only
adoptees. Yeah, we care about itwith folks that are immigrants.

(57:45):
We care about folks that aren't.
We care about it like thosequestions are primary in an
American setting, and adopteesare supposed to just blip it
out. Well, you should begrateful that some should be
grateful that we all just aren'tdumpster children. Yeah, I say
dumpster children, because inthe 80s, there were all these
women who wanted abortions butcouldn't have access to them
that were dumping fetuses orborn born infants into dumpster.

(58:06):
There was like a rash of thishappening. And every adoptee I
know that was adopted in the 80shad this experience of someone
being like, well, thealternative was the dumpster. I
just and

Megan Goodwin (58:22):
and the way that that story is offered, not as,
oh my god, we have failed as asociety, because this is the
only option. It's either you gettraffic to another family or you
get put in the trash. Not, oh mygod, what if all children
deserved care and were beingprovided for by the state in

(58:43):
which they lived. Like this is ayou problem, yeah, and not a
systemic failure completely.
Wowie. Wowie.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (58:52):
I mean, we could talk for days,
but I think it's time to wrap itup. Nerds, you have some
homework. Yes, homework. Whathomework? I have a bunch of
things to recommend. I everysingle time we cited a medical
fact that was a medical studyfor the purposes of
transparency, because I knowthis will make people heated and
bothered. I will put everysingle one of those medical

(59:15):
studies into our show notes. Nowfull disclosure, not all of
those are available to everyonebecause I use my university
library login to search actualmedical journals. But if you're
someone who wants the facts andwants to reach out to me and hit
me up, you are absolutelywelcome to do that, but I will
be citing the things that wecited without attention to what
was publicly available. Yeah,things that are easier to get

(59:37):
include Rebecca Randalls articlein sojourners, which is titled
for decades, churches forcedunwed mothers into adoptions. It
is from just a last year. Thereis a really great article. It's
an academic article, but it's byAlice diver last year. It's
called genetic stigma in law andliterature, orphanhood. Adoption

(01:00:00):
and the right to reunion. Thereis a really fabulous brand new
book came out February orJanuary of this year by Sun Ah
layborn, whose book is calledout of place the lives of Korean
adoptee immigrants. It's abrilliant book, like for real,
full assignment, if you'reinterested in American history,

(01:00:20):
immigration, Asian Americanidentities, or adoption. And
then there's a bunch of books byadoptees themselves. Because why
not let us speak? Nicole Chunghas a really fabulous book
called all you can ever know.
It's won every award ever. She'sreally fabulous. She was also on
a podcast with a colleague ofmine I met as part of my
Fulbright named Paul Lee, whohosts a podcast called divided

(01:00:44):
families, about families whofind themselves divided for any
number of reasons. And they didan adoption episode with Nicole.
It's a great episode. There'salso Barbara Gowans blending in,
crisscrossing the lines of race,religion and adoption, which is
directly relevant to all of us.
And then there's a few books inthe self help realm, but that

(01:01:05):
get but self help books gettossed around when we talk about
adoptees, and they are almostalways about, how do you deal
with infertility while alsoadopting a child? How do you
mourn that that child doesn'tlook like you? And my answer to
that is, fuck off. Yeah, don'tadopt someone if you don't
understand what they look like.
And also, welcome to my life. Ihave blonde haired, blue eyed
children, and I am Brown. I amall of you at best, and so like,
like, you are not guaranteednothing, even if your genes are

(01:01:30):
up in the mix. So a of all shutup. But self help books have
their place. Here are two that Iactually think are valuable, and
they are written by an adoptee,which I think is important,
named Sherry Eldridge. One iscalled 20 life transforming
choices adoptees need to make.
And the second, which I actuallyhave read, is 20 things adopted
kids wish their parents do so.
And also, we want to recommendhard this land podcast by

(01:01:54):
Cherokee writer and activistRebecca Nagle. They have a,
there's an there's an episodespecifically about Native
children being used to underminenative sovereignty. Yeah,

Megan Goodwin (01:02:08):
well, actually, the whole podcast I was going
through, like, the most recentone is very specifically, like,
leading up to the Supreme Courtcase that was threatening to
undermine ICWA. But like, acrossthe entire podcast, they were
talking about the ways that USinstitutions use native children
to undermine native sovereignty.
So fabulous, very relevant toour interests and our rage. I
will also say too, just tobriefly lighten things up a tiny

(01:02:30):
little bit that I have beentexting Ilyse frantically for
the last two weeks because Ibinge watched loot on apple plus
Joel Kim booster, who is acomedian, in addition to being a
really smart advocate foradoptees, in particular, gay
international adoptees, is amain character in the show. And
I thought, like, early on, I waslike, Oh, we're going to talk

(01:02:52):
about adoption for a hot minute.
That's cool, but it's it'sactually a runner in the show of
him trying to figure out whatkind of relationship he wants
with his adoptive parents,whether or not he wants to look
for his bio mom. And it's just,it's really thoughtful and
really smart in a way that, likesilly comedy is not often. So I

(01:03:14):
was really delighted to seethat. Not that I was surprised,
but I was delighted.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:03:18):
Yeah, and we recommend his essay, his,
like very old toast essay aboutadoption, first episode. So I
recommend Joel Kim boosteracross all platforms, all

Megan Goodwin (01:03:27):
of them, yeah. So you can find us across all
social media. We're still onTwitter, reluctantly, whilst it
Shambles forward, we're onInsta, we're on Tiktok, we're on
Facebook, and if none of thatdomestically supplies your
infants, we have a newsletter.
You're welcome. You can join viaour website, which is keeping it
one, oh one.com. Drop us arating or review in your
podcast, your choice. You got megood. You did. I was really

(01:03:51):
proud of that one.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:03:54):
If, after all that, after all this
episode, if, after all thisforce part mini series, if after
this very long semester, youwould still want to invite us to
campus or your local bookstoreto talk pod or religion is not
done with you. Our new book outwith Beacon Press, please,
please, please reach out to usor Caitlin Meyer and Our
incredible marketing team atBeacon. All of this is on the

(01:04:16):
website, but just so you heardit, we would love to come visit
come get in touch with us earlyand often so we can make that
happen, and with that, Peace Outnerds

Megan Goodwin (01:04:24):
and do your homework. Sounds syllabus? You

Unknown (01:04:47):
one of these things is not like the other. One of these
things just doesn't belong. Canyou tell which thing is not like
the other? Be. For I finish mysong.