February 12, 2025 • 24 mins
In which we review our very depressing and important miniseries discussion on religion and adoption AND play ridiculous orphan games as a reward for having done the hard things
As always, be sure to visit keepingit101.com for full show notes, homework, transcripts, & more.
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Keeping It 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion is proud to be part of the Amplify Podcast Network.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (00:17):
This is keeping it 101, a killjoys,
Introduction to religionpodcast, which is part of the
amplify podcast network, we aregrateful to live teach and
record on the current ancestraland unceded lands of the Abenaki
and Wabanaki peoples, as well asthe lands of one federally
recognized native nation, theEastern Band of Cherokee
Indians, and seven NorthCarolina state recognized tribal
entities. Increasingly, though,native folks are pushing us to
(00:40):
forgo land acknowledgementsaltogether and focus on action
items. Land back being one ofthem. And as always, you can
find material ways to supportindigenous communities on our
website.
Megan Goodwin (00:52):
What's up? Nerds?
Hi, hello. I'm Megan Goodwin, ascholar of American religions,
race, gender and politics.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (00:58):
Hi, hello. I'm Ilyse Morgenstein
Fuerst, a historian of religion,Islam, race and racialization
and South Asia.
Megan Goodwin (01:05):
We did it. Nerds, we made it through our mini
series on religion and adoption.
I'm so proud of us.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:10):
I'm also proud of us. We did do
that. We did it. We did but goodone. Remember when I said we
would do one episode on religionand adoption,
Megan Goodwin (01:21):
you didn't even say it. You're like, what if
maybe we did one episode? And Isaid, sure, but I think it's
gonna be more than one episode.
Maybe we'll do two.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:35):
It turns out there were too many
horrors for even just those twoepisodes. We needed more
Megan Goodwin (01:41):
so many horrors, just Yes, yes, right? So as is
our way, let us review thehorrors we do, and then we we
have a couple silly games toreward our nerds for sticking
with us through this reallychallenging and really
important, deep dive into a hardand painful topic.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:00):
Did you say games? I did say games.
I know about you. Are theregoing to be winners?
Megan Goodwin (02:07):
There will be winners. A winner might be you.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:10):
Well, the winner is going to be me.
You know, I can't not compete,
Megan Goodwin (02:16):
it's gonna be me.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:19):
I let's get through the review. I
want to crush you
Megan Goodwin (02:24):
of course. You do.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:26):
Let's go. I love sports!
Megan Goodwin (02:28):
Ready to decimate I'm gonna do an orphan sport.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:33):
an orphan sport sounds like some
poor kid trying to do a threelegged race with no one to join
them.
Megan Goodwin (02:39):
Oh no, see, in my mind, because, as we've talked
about, the kids are always thefootball. They were playing
croquet, but with the orphansand not with the porcupines,
like in Alice in Wonderland, itwas bad. It got dark real fast,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:50):
yeah?
Like, I'm the ball. I don't carefor that.
Megan Goodwin (02:53):
No, you shouldn't. It's bad. That was
the point of the series.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:57):
Let's, let's get into the wrap up.
Yeah.
Megan Goodwin (02:59):
Okay, fine. What did we do?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (03:02):
Well in Episode 703 which was our
overview, our kickoff episodewith primary sources, we gave
you nerds an overview ofreligion and adoption, including
how several religious traditionsdiffer on how or if adoption
should happen, but also the waysthat the US adoption industry
has always, always, always beenrooted in white Christian
(03:25):
nationalism. We even resurrectedprimary sources.
Megan Goodwin (03:32):
Primary sources, yeah, it's gonna hold it back. I
was, I was holding on to itbecause it's trying not to make
it about me, but I'll do itagain. Primary sources.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (03:40):
We even resurrected Megan's
favorite segment to share howreligion and adoption has shaped
the lives of your own humble,gorgeous podcast hosts,
Megan Goodwin (03:50):
so gorgeous, stunning
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (03:52):
and then nerds, after our overview
and primary sources episode wedid Episode 705 which was about
adoption and religious freedom,in which we humbly explained
that religions have their ownways of thinking about orphans,
children without guardians, andadoption, and those things are
not the same, actually at all,but the government, and that's
(04:14):
frankly, any government at thispoint, has its own ways of
thinking about adoption, inparticular because of the
transferring of a human to thecare of another human state and
religious definitions or legalframeworks don't always line up.
Yeah? We also said in thisepisode, especially about
religious freedom, thatadoptees, plum, do not have any
(04:35):
rights, yeah, for a billionreasons, but usually because, in
an adoption system, adoptees aredefinitionally minors, which
means that their participationor lack thereof is completely at
the discretion of the adoptiveparents, regardless of whatever
home or lineage they came frombefore. In this episode, we also
(04:55):
talked about, you guessed it,how the adoption agencies are
in. Said with Christianity, not100% but, but most, I'd put it
at like 90 to 95% that historyis, pardon my, ever occurring
French, super fucked up, whichwe've gotten to but, yeah, it
(05:18):
includes, but not limited tophrases like baby scoop.
Megan Goodwin (05:24):
Yep, baby scoop era changed and forever changed.
Yeah,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (05:28):
you're changed by the baby scoop. The
way that the Catholic Church wasintimately involved in scooping
babies, the agencies of adoptionas well as US backed Protestant
organizations that promoted theremoval of native children to be
raised by good white Christiansin order to kill the native but
save the child. And that is aquote we also finally talked
(05:52):
about in that episode howconservative activists have been
using and abusing religiousfreedom laws for a hell of a
long time now, all the whileclaiming that Christians are
themselves oppressed. Listener,they are not, and in the history
of Western Europe, they have notbeen that said, it hasn't
stopped lawsuit after lawsuitafter lawsuit claiming that the
(06:13):
state owes nice Christian wouldbe adoptive parents string free
babies to raise in the name oftheir Lord. All right, that's
what we did in the first twoepisodes Goodwin. What did we do
in the final two episodes onadoption?
Megan Goodwin (06:29):
In Episode 707?
We were so lucky and so gratefulto get to learn about the Indian
Child Welfare Act and nativechild removal as a genocidal
strategy of white Christiannationalism from Dr Courtney
Lewis, who is the foundingdirector of Duke's Native
American Studies Initiative andan enrolled citizen of the
Cherokee Nation. Dr Lewis alsoasked me to clarify, and we have
(06:51):
this in the show notes, but justto be clear, because when we are
talking about a subject ascontentious as the theft of
native children, it's importantto make sure that we've got all
our receipts in line. Dr Lewisasked us to clarify that the
official estimates of the amountof children were moved and
placed permanently into whitehomes is 1/3 but that doesn't
(07:11):
include those who were left outof the official account and
those whose placements weretemporary. But like temporary
can really vary, so that can beyears and years. So when we take
into account all of the childrenimpacted by the Indian adoption
project, and it's horribleoffspring, estimates for how
many Native children wereremoved into largely white
(07:32):
Christian homes can be as highas two thirds of all of the need
to two thirds of all of thenative children. The series
fucked me up. Man.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (07:46):
It's also important to follow that
note up Megan with the idea thatwhen we're talking about
adoptees, and if you'relistening, we're dropping this
later, but at the time ofrecording, a bunch of news
articles just came out blastingthe Korean American Baby trade.
And much like in that scenario,we know that adoption records
(08:07):
are falsified. We know that thebaby trade issue is murky. So
while estimates may vary betweena third and two thirds, we also
know that taking theconservative estimate
historically has been incorrect.
We know that those numbers arepurposely low, right? Because it
is hard to justify a baby scoop.
So I want to just tag team DrLewis's editorial note, yes,
(08:31):
yes.
Megan Goodwin (08:33):
So that that episode broke me, and then we
did Episode 709 which was ourepisode on adoption and
reproductive justice. So just tokind of go over the highlights
we talked about the fact thatadoption of what's now the
United States, no matter whatelse it is or could be, has
always, always, always beenabout making sure that nice
(08:53):
white Christian families canraise the maximum number of nice
white American Christianchildren. Which is why,
especially after roe codifiedthe constitutional right to an
abortion in 1973 rip you,regressive white Christian
nationalists fought hard toinsist that adoption was the
solution to the problem theythought abortion was and how the
(09:14):
proposal of adoption as asolution to infertility also
really picks up steam, because,as we discussed in that episode,
adoption is not a solution toabortion, because abortion is
not a problem. Abortion ishealthcare for people who don't
want to be pregnant. Andadoption is not a solution to
infertility, because adoption isabout a child needing a home,
(09:35):
and not people really, really,really wanting babies, even if
the reason they really, really,really want babies is because
they want to love the stuffingout of them.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (09:43):
Yeah, good when I before we move on to
games.
Megan Goodwin (09:50):
This is so fun too, because I'm so not
competitive. So I'm like,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (09:53):
Yeah, you're just gonna concede the
win because you don't care. ButI fucking love winning, so I'm
gonna win my merit. But before Iwin, before I win, before you
went meritocracy that we justmade up, I think the bird's eye
view of what I hoped toaccomplish in these episodes.
And nerds, I gotta be honest, Ihave been thinking about
adoption since I was born onaccount of being an adoptee, but
(10:17):
I found these really hard toresearch, like I never struggle
with writing episodes, honestly,but I on multiple occasions had
to be like, good when you need Iactually need you to course
correct, like, I don't know howto stick my toe in here without
feeling all of the feelings ofbeing a product of a traumatic
system. Yeah. And so what Ithink we hoped to do in both
(10:40):
blending our personal voiceshere and our rage as we always
do, rage is instructive, rage ispedagogical and the rest. But I
think what we tried to do wasgive folks this Venn diagram of
how and when religion isintersecting with adoption,
because we tend to think ofthose as inherently separate.
And I really hope what we'veshown you is that in this
(11:03):
country and in whiteunderstandings of adoption,
frankly, globally, in the GlobalNorth, you cannot actually
divorce out religion. And I knowwe say that a lot. We keep
saying religion is not done withyou, but with adoption, it is.
It is almost really not donewith you. One, yeah, as you can
make it. These are sooverlapping and so intertwined,
(11:25):
and it's like, if you pulled onone's thread, the whole tapestry
would unravel, yeah? And so Ihope that's what our listeners
got out of these complex andlong and emotionally challenging
episodes. Yeah.
Megan Goodwin (11:40):
I hope so too, and that, dear nerds, is what we
had to say about adoption andreligion. And we know this was
hard. We really appreciate yousticking with us. This brings us
today, and the ridiculous gamesI have designed to try to shake
all of this off, even though Iknow we and our listeners will
continue to be haunted by whatwe have learned for many, many
years to come. You soI know, bring us to the nonsense
(12:08):
games part of our segment,Megan. Megan, are these games
that our listeners can play athome. They can if they won. Or
is it just, is it just for us inthe studio audience. I mean, I
don't see why you couldn't playalong at home. Please don't play
if you're driving, maybe pullover. But if you're in a safe
place, to write some stuff down,you too can play Super Duper
(12:29):
baby scooper. It's spelled withall oats, by the way, just so
you know. Okay, here is thegame. Yeah, bitch loves a theme.
I love a theme. Oh, we both get30 seconds to write down as many
orphans or media about orphans,because I know you don't do
character names, so you can justdo like movie names or book
(12:52):
titles if you want.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (12:53):
Oh, you're even making it easier for
me. This is a mistake, yes and
Megan Goodwin (12:58):
no, because guess how many orphans I have lined up
Justin Peter Pan alone ready go,but
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (13:03):
I didn't even imagine all of the
Megan Goodwin (13:03):
Uh huh. Well, and here's the thing is, like I am
lost boys who are clearly allorphans.
simply play. We're ruining itfor not years at home. We're
not. I'm just saying I haveactively resisted looking up
more orphan names from Peter Panbecause that felt like cheating,
and this was supposed to thiswas supposed to be off the top
(13:23):
of our heads. But, yeah, canthey be real people? Or do they
just they can no, they can alsobe real. They can also be real
people. I'm so excited. Okay,I'm about to pull out the most
nonsense names ever. That wasgreat. I'm seconds, yeah. So,
yeah. Okay, so we both get 30seconds to write down as many
orphans or media titles aboutorphans as we can think of, real
(13:46):
or fictional off the top of ourheads. And then we compare lists
one point poor per orphan nameor media title. Okay, winner
takes the prize.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (13:56):
Do our points? Do our points cancel
out? If we both have the sameone, it doesn't well. So
actually, because this is, whata great adding, then we then it
adds.
Megan Goodwin (14:02):
That was what I was gonna say. It's like they
basically cancel each other outanyway. But this way the point
titles or totals are higher. AndI know how you like that.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (14:10):
So, uh, you know how I like that? I
like soccer. A 00, game isperfectly Cromulent, yeah?
Megan Goodwin (14:17):
But if you can have more points, why don't I
have more points? Yeah? No,let's, let's rank up points.
Let's rank up points. Let'seven, let's make them 100 points
a piece. Like, why not? GreatSkipper, 100 points per orphan,
slash many points.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (14:28):
All right, let's go. Okay.
Megan Goodwin (14:31):
Winner takes the prize, which is mostly
existential despair, about howmany of our stories use children
without permanent care as a plotdevice, and how that encourages
us to not even really noticethat foundational trauma as part
of the character's development,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (14:45):
you're just awarding everyone the thing
I already have.
Megan Goodwin (14:48):
Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, no, we're
sharing. You're welcome. This isall right. Welcome to trauma
nerds. We're about to get downand dirty.
Yep, yep. Okay, you ready?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (14:58):
Yeah, I'm gonna write down initial. So
I can go faster, but I'm gonnaknow what I meant.
Megan Goodwin (15:03):
Okay, that's fine. I'm not actually reviewing
your list. I
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (15:07):
just want to make sure that the
Russian judge knows I'm about toget a 10 out of 10 noted, and no
bitch cannot take off points fornothing. All right, it's good.
Megan Goodwin (15:17):
I only gave you 30 seconds, because otherwise
this could go on all day. Allright, I'm gonna hit the button.
Are you ready? I'm ready set,scoop those orphans.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (15:31):
This is hard, because I want to make
so many jokes, but it's hard towrite.
Megan Goodwin (15:38):
Oh, damn, that was so fast. 30 seconds is no
time at all. I'm getting we hadso many more. I know it's that's
got 30 seconds down, right? Pensdown. All right. Ilyse Rian
Morgenstein Fuerst, scoop thosebabies.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (15:57):
All right. Here's my list. You
ready? Yes. Harry Potter,Voldemort, check, Luke
Skywalker, Leia Skywalker,Oliver, twist. Oliver from the
music musical. Oliver. Oliver,cat from the Disney movie.
Oliver, basically all ofDickens, every character that
has ever been in Dickens, Lilorphan, Annie queen. Esther.
(16:23):
Moishe, that's Moses. Mohammed,Alexander Hamilton, Bambi
No. Fuck I forgot about Bambi!Batman and also Robin, okay, all
right, Superman, and then I ranout of time. But the last one
that I want to mention is Osamabin Laden.
Megan Goodwin (16:47):
Oh, oh, no. Okay, I'm pretty sure you definitely
beat me. I didn't have enoughtime. Yeah, no, you only had 30
seconds. That's the challenge ofthe game. Okay? I had Long John
Silver. Sure.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (16:59):
I have a feeling this is gonna be all
pirates.
Megan Goodwin (17:02):
It's not not pirate intensive,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (17:04):
all right.
Megan Goodwin (17:04):
Long John Silver toodles, Nibs, those were the
only lost boys I remembered. Idid get both Luke and Leia
Skywalker, and I'm mad that youthought about Leia, because you
hate Star Wars, and I was sosure that I was going to get you
on Leia. Paddington, bear,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (17:21):
yeah, always your favorite
Megan Goodwin (17:23):
Harry Potter.
Both got James Hook also. Icould not detail all of the
Boxcar Children, but I just saidBoxcar Children. I just all of
them. I get one point for that.
And then my last one was MotherTeresa as, like a franchise, not
as a person, just as like mediaabout orphans.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (17:45):
I have to tell you the people that we
missed that I really wanted towrite down, but I couldn't write
fast enough. Include theoryheavy, Kant. Nietzsche,
Megan Goodwin (17:55):
oh, my God, of course, you've collected the
orphans.
Ilyse Morgenstein (17:58):
Dostoyevsky.
Get into the Russians andColonel Sanders famously at
orphan, Dave Thomas, famously inorphan, an ortho idea, yeah, all
right, these orphans, you know,you know, neighborhood,
maybe come back with so funnerds tell us in Instagram,
(18:21):
because that's where we aremostly these days, or on Tiktok,
tell us who we missed that youthink
Unknown (18:29):
you know about. I like.
I need to collect my orphans,and I have many, many more in
the back of my head. I justcan't write. No, it was that.
It's it was 30 seconds. I didnot count my list. So hold on. I
got 1-234-567-8910, I got 10.
Orphans.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (18:46):
I got 15.
Megan Goodwin (18:48):
You win. You win.
As we knew you would. I'm sohappy for you. That's great.
That's honestly what I washoping would happen.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (18:58):
So I really want to do that, like
Mantzoukas is like,
Megan Goodwin (19:04):
oh, man, I can't believe I left out Highlander.
I'm disappointed in me anyway,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (19:10):
all right. Is that the only game the
super duper baby? It's not. It'ssuper duper baby scoop the
nation. It's drinking game toend all drinking games, Super
Duper scooper, we all end indepressive drinking
Megan Goodwin (19:21):
Correct. That is correct, but no dear nerds and
also dear Elise. That was notthe only game that I designed
for today. The other game, whichis just special for you, I'm not
participating. This is an Ilyse.
This is an IRMF special, yes,yes. It is called Don't go
chasing face waterfalls. Why?
(19:43):
Face Off is actually a movieabout adoption, inspired in
this, as in all things, keepbreathing. I'm sorry, silly.
Yeah, that's what we were goingfor, because we made everybody
cry and like, grit their teethfor fucking four episodes. So.
Everyone should appreciate thatwe are of the darkest of dark
humor. So very much. So get intothe jokes and don't go chasing
(20:06):
face waterfalls inspired inthis, as in all things, by her
aspirational besties, Bowen Yangand Matt Rogers, we shall now
engage in a very special andtotally used without permission,
homage to their iconic podcastgame. I don't think so, honey? I
don't think so. Honey invitesparticipants to engage in like,
a minute long tirade aboutsomething they dislike or
(20:27):
something they wish to clarifyfor their beloved readers. I
have entitled our version. Areyou fucking kidding me? I'm
gonna put 60 seconds on theclock. Dr Morgenstein First will
use that time to tell us whyexactly we should and shall
clearly understand face off,possibly her favorite film of
(20:47):
all time as a secret adoptionmovie. All right, I'm gonna put
60 seconds on the clock. This isIlyse Ryan Morgenstein Fuerst
with, are you fucking kiddingme. Her time starts now.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (21:05):
Are you fucking kidding me? Face
Off. Is actually a movie aboutadoption, and here's why. In the
first scene, we see aninfanticide Nick with a tripod
gun in the middle of a party,and he aims to kill John
Travolta, but instead, the bulltrain kills his son. Immediately
(21:25):
killed. Michael is dead. Thiskicks off three hours of John Wu
nonsense explosions, and at theend of the movie, John 30
seconds scoops Nick Cage's baby,whose name is Adam, and they
steal them. Actually, I mighthave inverted the names. It
doesn't even matter, because areyou kidding me? John Bolton
comes home and he's like, I havekilled Nick Cage. He is my
(21:47):
mortal enemy. My face is backon, and also I have a 15 second
I have scooped the baby. I losta baby. I wanted the baby. My
life was bad. Without the baby,I stole a criminal's baby.
Actually, I told the criminal tosteal his baby. It is a movie
about adoption. I'm done
Megan Goodwin (22:02):
with two seconds to spare. That was Elise Ryan
Morgenstein first with, are youfucking kidding me? Parentheses,
don't go chasing facewaterfalls. I
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (22:13):
don't think anyone knows what face
waterfalls means, but I'm hopingthat you are how to just get me
listener, dear nerds. Wow, thatwas hilariously fun. That was
really great. I know why Bowenand Matt do that now. Yes, we
Megan Goodwin (22:26):
should play more.
Also, feel free to let us knowon Instagram, what other things
we should yell about. Aren't Areyou fucking kidding me? Because
I feel like we should bring thatone
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (22:35):
back.
We shouldn't just wholesalesteal someone else's bit. But
that was good for it. That wasgood and fun. This
Megan Goodwin (22:42):
officially concludes our miniseries on
religion, adoption nurse. Wow.
What a tradition I know. I knowthat's good. That's what I
really specialize in, likereally gentle transitions. And
everything definitely makessense. And you can definitely
tell where the fuck I'm comingfrom at all times.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (22:56):
No, no, we're nothing if not abrupt.
Megan Goodwin (22:59):
Sure, I don't know what you mean. Once again,
thanks for sticking with us. Andthanks to Dr Courtney Lewis and
Dr Lisa Monroe for theircontributions to this series.
Homework. What homework? I don'thave any homework because I feel
like y'all have done enough atthis point. We don't have
resources.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (23:15):
Just go watch face off and tell me
how much you love it, becauseit's the greatest movie
Megan Goodwin (23:19):
of all time, and learn for yourself what a face
waterfall is, and then please doit to everyone that you love.
Don't
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (23:25):
ever do that to anyone
Megan Goodwin (23:29):
but wash your hands. Wash your hands for us,
though, please. You can find usacross social media, still on
Twitter, reluctantly andinstead, Tiktok, Facebook, and
if none of that waterfalls yourface. You can subscribe to our
newsletter. There's a cutelittle form at the bottom of the
website, which is keeping it oneon one.com. Drop us a rating or
(23:50):
review in your podcaster choice.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (23:52):
If, after you've scooped all the
babies, you still want to inviteus to your campus or your local
bookstore to talk about thepodcast or religion is not done
with you. Please, please reachout to us directly, or to
Caitlin Meyer, our incrediblemarketing and publicity Maven
over at Beacon. All of thisinformation is on the website,
but just so you heard it, we'dlove to come visit so let us
know. And with that, peace out.
Adopter renos
Megan Goodwin (24:16):
and do your homework. It's on the syllabus.
And
Unknown (24:38):
I understand I'm trying to be the daily Scoop, scoop,
scoo scoop.
This is keeping it 101, a killjoys,
Introduction to religionpodcast, which is part of the
amplify podcast network, we aregrateful to live teach and
record on the current ancestraland unceded lands of the Abenaki
and Wabanaki peoples, as well asthe lands of one federally
recognized native nation, theEastern Band of Cherokee
Indians, and seven NorthCarolina state recognized tribal
entities. Increasingly, though,native folks are pushing us to
(00:40):
forgo land acknowledgementsaltogether and focus on action
items. Land back being one ofthem. And as always, you can
find material ways to supportindigenous communities on our
website.
Megan Goodwin (00:52):
What's up? Nerds?
Hi, hello. I'm Megan Goodwin, ascholar of American religions,
race, gender and politics.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (00:58):
Hi, hello. I'm Ilyse Morgenstein
Fuerst, a historian of religion,Islam, race and racialization
and South Asia.
Megan Goodwin (01:05):
We did it. Nerds, we made it through our mini
series on religion and adoption.
I'm so proud of us.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:10):
I'm also proud of us. We did do
that. We did it. We did but goodone. Remember when I said we
would do one episode on religionand adoption,
Megan Goodwin (01:21):
you didn't even say it. You're like, what if
maybe we did one episode? And Isaid, sure, but I think it's
gonna be more than one episode.
Maybe we'll do two.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:35):
It turns out there were too many
horrors for even just those twoepisodes. We needed more
Megan Goodwin (01:41):
so many horrors, just Yes, yes, right? So as is
our way, let us review thehorrors we do, and then we we
have a couple silly games toreward our nerds for sticking
with us through this reallychallenging and really
important, deep dive into a hardand painful topic.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:00):
Did you say games? I did say games.
I know about you. Are theregoing to be winners?
Megan Goodwin (02:07):
There will be winners. A winner might be you.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:10):
Well, the winner is going to be me.
You know, I can't not compete,
Megan Goodwin (02:16):
it's gonna be me.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:19):
I let's get through the review. I
want to crush you
Megan Goodwin (02:24):
of course. You do.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:26):
Let's go. I love sports!
Megan Goodwin (02:28):
Ready to decimate I'm gonna do an orphan sport.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:33):
an orphan sport sounds like some
poor kid trying to do a threelegged race with no one to join
them.
Megan Goodwin (02:39):
Oh no, see, in my mind, because, as we've talked
about, the kids are always thefootball. They were playing
croquet, but with the orphansand not with the porcupines,
like in Alice in Wonderland, itwas bad. It got dark real fast,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:50):
yeah?
Like, I'm the ball. I don't carefor that.
Megan Goodwin (02:53):
No, you shouldn't. It's bad. That was
the point of the series.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:57):
Let's, let's get into the wrap up.
Yeah.
Megan Goodwin (02:59):
Okay, fine. What did we do?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (03:02):
Well in Episode 703 which was our
overview, our kickoff episodewith primary sources, we gave
you nerds an overview ofreligion and adoption, including
how several religious traditionsdiffer on how or if adoption
should happen, but also the waysthat the US adoption industry
has always, always, always beenrooted in white Christian
(03:25):
nationalism. We even resurrectedprimary sources.
Megan Goodwin (03:32):
Primary sources, yeah, it's gonna hold it back. I
was, I was holding on to itbecause it's trying not to make
it about me, but I'll do itagain. Primary sources.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (03:40):
We even resurrected Megan's
favorite segment to share howreligion and adoption has shaped
the lives of your own humble,gorgeous podcast hosts,
Megan Goodwin (03:50):
so gorgeous, stunning
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (03:52):
and then nerds, after our overview
and primary sources episode wedid Episode 705 which was about
adoption and religious freedom,in which we humbly explained
that religions have their ownways of thinking about orphans,
children without guardians, andadoption, and those things are
not the same, actually at all,but the government, and that's
(04:14):
frankly, any government at thispoint, has its own ways of
thinking about adoption, inparticular because of the
transferring of a human to thecare of another human state and
religious definitions or legalframeworks don't always line up.
Yeah? We also said in thisepisode, especially about
religious freedom, thatadoptees, plum, do not have any
(04:35):
rights, yeah, for a billionreasons, but usually because, in
an adoption system, adoptees aredefinitionally minors, which
means that their participationor lack thereof is completely at
the discretion of the adoptiveparents, regardless of whatever
home or lineage they came frombefore. In this episode, we also
(04:55):
talked about, you guessed it,how the adoption agencies are
in. Said with Christianity, not100% but, but most, I'd put it
at like 90 to 95% that historyis, pardon my, ever occurring
French, super fucked up, whichwe've gotten to but, yeah, it
(05:18):
includes, but not limited tophrases like baby scoop.
Megan Goodwin (05:24):
Yep, baby scoop era changed and forever changed.
Yeah,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (05:28):
you're changed by the baby scoop. The
way that the Catholic Church wasintimately involved in scooping
babies, the agencies of adoptionas well as US backed Protestant
organizations that promoted theremoval of native children to be
raised by good white Christiansin order to kill the native but
save the child. And that is aquote we also finally talked
(05:52):
about in that episode howconservative activists have been
using and abusing religiousfreedom laws for a hell of a
long time now, all the whileclaiming that Christians are
themselves oppressed. Listener,they are not, and in the history
of Western Europe, they have notbeen that said, it hasn't
stopped lawsuit after lawsuitafter lawsuit claiming that the
(06:13):
state owes nice Christian wouldbe adoptive parents string free
babies to raise in the name oftheir Lord. All right, that's
what we did in the first twoepisodes Goodwin. What did we do
in the final two episodes onadoption?
Megan Goodwin (06:29):
In Episode 707?
We were so lucky and so gratefulto get to learn about the Indian
Child Welfare Act and nativechild removal as a genocidal
strategy of white Christiannationalism from Dr Courtney
Lewis, who is the foundingdirector of Duke's Native
American Studies Initiative andan enrolled citizen of the
Cherokee Nation. Dr Lewis alsoasked me to clarify, and we have
(06:51):
this in the show notes, but justto be clear, because when we are
talking about a subject ascontentious as the theft of
native children, it's importantto make sure that we've got all
our receipts in line. Dr Lewisasked us to clarify that the
official estimates of the amountof children were moved and
placed permanently into whitehomes is 1/3 but that doesn't
(07:11):
include those who were left outof the official account and
those whose placements weretemporary. But like temporary
can really vary, so that can beyears and years. So when we take
into account all of the childrenimpacted by the Indian adoption
project, and it's horribleoffspring, estimates for how
many Native children wereremoved into largely white
(07:32):
Christian homes can be as highas two thirds of all of the need
to two thirds of all of thenative children. The series
fucked me up. Man.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (07:46):
It's also important to follow that
note up Megan with the idea thatwhen we're talking about
adoptees, and if you'relistening, we're dropping this
later, but at the time ofrecording, a bunch of news
articles just came out blastingthe Korean American Baby trade.
And much like in that scenario,we know that adoption records
(08:07):
are falsified. We know that thebaby trade issue is murky. So
while estimates may vary betweena third and two thirds, we also
know that taking theconservative estimate
historically has been incorrect.
We know that those numbers arepurposely low, right? Because it
is hard to justify a baby scoop.
So I want to just tag team DrLewis's editorial note, yes,
(08:31):
yes.
Megan Goodwin (08:33):
So that that episode broke me, and then we
did Episode 709 which was ourepisode on adoption and
reproductive justice. So just tokind of go over the highlights
we talked about the fact thatadoption of what's now the
United States, no matter whatelse it is or could be, has
always, always, always beenabout making sure that nice
(08:53):
white Christian families canraise the maximum number of nice
white American Christianchildren. Which is why,
especially after roe codifiedthe constitutional right to an
abortion in 1973 rip you,regressive white Christian
nationalists fought hard toinsist that adoption was the
solution to the problem theythought abortion was and how the
(09:14):
proposal of adoption as asolution to infertility also
really picks up steam, because,as we discussed in that episode,
adoption is not a solution toabortion, because abortion is
not a problem. Abortion ishealthcare for people who don't
want to be pregnant. Andadoption is not a solution to
infertility, because adoption isabout a child needing a home,
(09:35):
and not people really, really,really wanting babies, even if
the reason they really, really,really want babies is because
they want to love the stuffingout of them.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (09:43):
Yeah, good when I before we move on to
games.
Megan Goodwin (09:50):
This is so fun too, because I'm so not
competitive. So I'm like,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (09:53):
Yeah, you're just gonna concede the
win because you don't care. ButI fucking love winning, so I'm
gonna win my merit. But before Iwin, before I win, before you
went meritocracy that we justmade up, I think the bird's eye
view of what I hoped toaccomplish in these episodes.
And nerds, I gotta be honest, Ihave been thinking about
adoption since I was born onaccount of being an adoptee, but
(10:17):
I found these really hard toresearch, like I never struggle
with writing episodes, honestly,but I on multiple occasions had
to be like, good when you need Iactually need you to course
correct, like, I don't know howto stick my toe in here without
feeling all of the feelings ofbeing a product of a traumatic
system. Yeah. And so what Ithink we hoped to do in both
(10:40):
blending our personal voiceshere and our rage as we always
do, rage is instructive, rage ispedagogical and the rest. But I
think what we tried to do wasgive folks this Venn diagram of
how and when religion isintersecting with adoption,
because we tend to think ofthose as inherently separate.
And I really hope what we'veshown you is that in this
(11:03):
country and in whiteunderstandings of adoption,
frankly, globally, in the GlobalNorth, you cannot actually
divorce out religion. And I knowwe say that a lot. We keep
saying religion is not done withyou, but with adoption, it is.
It is almost really not donewith you. One, yeah, as you can
make it. These are sooverlapping and so intertwined,
(11:25):
and it's like, if you pulled onone's thread, the whole tapestry
would unravel, yeah? And so Ihope that's what our listeners
got out of these complex andlong and emotionally challenging
episodes. Yeah.
Megan Goodwin (11:40):
I hope so too, and that, dear nerds, is what we
had to say about adoption andreligion. And we know this was
hard. We really appreciate yousticking with us. This brings us
today, and the ridiculous gamesI have designed to try to shake
all of this off, even though Iknow we and our listeners will
continue to be haunted by whatwe have learned for many, many
years to come. You soI know, bring us to the nonsense
(12:08):
games part of our segment,Megan. Megan, are these games
that our listeners can play athome. They can if they won. Or
is it just, is it just for us inthe studio audience. I mean, I
don't see why you couldn't playalong at home. Please don't play
if you're driving, maybe pullover. But if you're in a safe
place, to write some stuff down,you too can play Super Duper
(12:29):
baby scooper. It's spelled withall oats, by the way, just so
you know. Okay, here is thegame. Yeah, bitch loves a theme.
I love a theme. Oh, we both get30 seconds to write down as many
orphans or media about orphans,because I know you don't do
character names, so you can justdo like movie names or book
(12:52):
titles if you want.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (12:53):
Oh, you're even making it easier for
me. This is a mistake, yes and
Megan Goodwin (12:58):
no, because guess how many orphans I have lined up
Justin Peter Pan alone ready go,but
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (13:03):
I didn't even imagine all of the
Megan Goodwin (13:03):
Uh huh. Well, and here's the thing is, like I am
lost boys who are clearly allorphans.
simply play. We're ruining itfor not years at home. We're
not. I'm just saying I haveactively resisted looking up
more orphan names from Peter Panbecause that felt like cheating,
and this was supposed to thiswas supposed to be off the top
(13:23):
of our heads. But, yeah, canthey be real people? Or do they
just they can no, they can alsobe real. They can also be real
people. I'm so excited. Okay,I'm about to pull out the most
nonsense names ever. That wasgreat. I'm seconds, yeah. So,
yeah. Okay, so we both get 30seconds to write down as many
orphans or media titles aboutorphans as we can think of, real
(13:46):
or fictional off the top of ourheads. And then we compare lists
one point poor per orphan nameor media title. Okay, winner
takes the prize.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (13:56):
Do our points? Do our points cancel
out? If we both have the sameone, it doesn't well. So
actually, because this is, whata great adding, then we then it
adds.
Megan Goodwin (14:02):
That was what I was gonna say. It's like they
basically cancel each other outanyway. But this way the point
titles or totals are higher. AndI know how you like that.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (14:10):
So, uh, you know how I like that? I
like soccer. A 00, game isperfectly Cromulent, yeah?
Megan Goodwin (14:17):
But if you can have more points, why don't I
have more points? Yeah? No,let's, let's rank up points.
Let's rank up points. Let'seven, let's make them 100 points
a piece. Like, why not? GreatSkipper, 100 points per orphan,
slash many points.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (14:28):
All right, let's go. Okay.
Megan Goodwin (14:31):
Winner takes the prize, which is mostly
existential despair, about howmany of our stories use children
without permanent care as a plotdevice, and how that encourages
us to not even really noticethat foundational trauma as part
of the character's development,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (14:45):
you're just awarding everyone the thing
I already have.
Megan Goodwin (14:48):
Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, no, we're
sharing. You're welcome. This isall right. Welcome to trauma
nerds. We're about to get downand dirty.
Yep, yep. Okay, you ready?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (14:58):
Yeah, I'm gonna write down initial. So
I can go faster, but I'm gonnaknow what I meant.
Megan Goodwin (15:03):
Okay, that's fine. I'm not actually reviewing
your list. I
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (15:07):
just want to make sure that the
Russian judge knows I'm about toget a 10 out of 10 noted, and no
bitch cannot take off points fornothing. All right, it's good.
Megan Goodwin (15:17):
I only gave you 30 seconds, because otherwise
this could go on all day. Allright, I'm gonna hit the button.
Are you ready? I'm ready set,scoop those orphans.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (15:31):
This is hard, because I want to make
so many jokes, but it's hard towrite.
Megan Goodwin (15:38):
Oh, damn, that was so fast. 30 seconds is no
time at all. I'm getting we hadso many more. I know it's that's
got 30 seconds down, right? Pensdown. All right. Ilyse Rian
Morgenstein Fuerst, scoop thosebabies.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (15:57):
All right. Here's my list. You
ready? Yes. Harry Potter,Voldemort, check, Luke
Skywalker, Leia Skywalker,Oliver, twist. Oliver from the
music musical. Oliver. Oliver,cat from the Disney movie.
Oliver, basically all ofDickens, every character that
has ever been in Dickens, Lilorphan, Annie queen. Esther.
(16:23):
Moishe, that's Moses. Mohammed,Alexander Hamilton, Bambi
No. Fuck I forgot about Bambi!Batman and also Robin, okay, all
right, Superman, and then I ranout of time. But the last one
that I want to mention is Osamabin Laden.
Megan Goodwin (16:47):
Oh, oh, no. Okay, I'm pretty sure you definitely
beat me. I didn't have enoughtime. Yeah, no, you only had 30
seconds. That's the challenge ofthe game. Okay? I had Long John
Silver. Sure.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (16:59):
I have a feeling this is gonna be all
pirates.
Megan Goodwin (17:02):
It's not not pirate intensive,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (17:04):
all right.
Megan Goodwin (17:04):
Long John Silver toodles, Nibs, those were the
only lost boys I remembered. Idid get both Luke and Leia
Skywalker, and I'm mad that youthought about Leia, because you
hate Star Wars, and I was sosure that I was going to get you
on Leia. Paddington, bear,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (17:21):
yeah, always your favorite
Megan Goodwin (17:23):
Harry Potter.
Both got James Hook also. Icould not detail all of the
Boxcar Children, but I just saidBoxcar Children. I just all of
them. I get one point for that.
And then my last one was MotherTeresa as, like a franchise, not
as a person, just as like mediaabout orphans.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (17:45):
I have to tell you the people that we
missed that I really wanted towrite down, but I couldn't write
fast enough. Include theoryheavy, Kant. Nietzsche,
Megan Goodwin (17:55):
oh, my God, of course, you've collected the
orphans.
Ilyse Morgenstein (17:58):
Dostoyevsky.
Get into the Russians andColonel Sanders famously at
orphan, Dave Thomas, famously inorphan, an ortho idea, yeah, all
right, these orphans, you know,you know, neighborhood,
maybe come back with so funnerds tell us in Instagram,
(18:21):
because that's where we aremostly these days, or on Tiktok,
tell us who we missed that youthink
Unknown (18:29):
you know about. I like.
I need to collect my orphans,and I have many, many more in
the back of my head. I justcan't write. No, it was that.
It's it was 30 seconds. I didnot count my list. So hold on. I
got 1-234-567-8910, I got 10.
Orphans.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (18:46):
I got 15.
Megan Goodwin (18:48):
You win. You win.
As we knew you would. I'm sohappy for you. That's great.
That's honestly what I washoping would happen.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (18:58):
So I really want to do that, like
Mantzoukas is like,
Megan Goodwin (19:04):
oh, man, I can't believe I left out Highlander.
I'm disappointed in me anyway,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (19:10):
all right. Is that the only game the
super duper baby? It's not. It'ssuper duper baby scoop the
nation. It's drinking game toend all drinking games, Super
Duper scooper, we all end indepressive drinking
Megan Goodwin (19:21):
Correct. That is correct, but no dear nerds and
also dear Elise. That was notthe only game that I designed
for today. The other game, whichis just special for you, I'm not
participating. This is an Ilyse.
This is an IRMF special, yes,yes. It is called Don't go
chasing face waterfalls. Why?
(19:43):
Face Off is actually a movieabout adoption, inspired in
this, as in all things, keepbreathing. I'm sorry, silly.
Yeah, that's what we were goingfor, because we made everybody
cry and like, grit their teethfor fucking four episodes. So.
Everyone should appreciate thatwe are of the darkest of dark
humor. So very much. So get intothe jokes and don't go chasing
(20:06):
face waterfalls inspired inthis, as in all things, by her
aspirational besties, Bowen Yangand Matt Rogers, we shall now
engage in a very special andtotally used without permission,
homage to their iconic podcastgame. I don't think so, honey? I
don't think so. Honey invitesparticipants to engage in like,
a minute long tirade aboutsomething they dislike or
(20:27):
something they wish to clarifyfor their beloved readers. I
have entitled our version. Areyou fucking kidding me? I'm
gonna put 60 seconds on theclock. Dr Morgenstein First will
use that time to tell us whyexactly we should and shall
clearly understand face off,possibly her favorite film of
(20:47):
all time as a secret adoptionmovie. All right, I'm gonna put
60 seconds on the clock. This isIlyse Ryan Morgenstein Fuerst
with, are you fucking kiddingme. Her time starts now.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (21:05):
Are you fucking kidding me? Face
Off. Is actually a movie aboutadoption, and here's why. In the
first scene, we see aninfanticide Nick with a tripod
gun in the middle of a party,and he aims to kill John
Travolta, but instead, the bulltrain kills his son. Immediately
(21:25):
killed. Michael is dead. Thiskicks off three hours of John Wu
nonsense explosions, and at theend of the movie, John 30
seconds scoops Nick Cage's baby,whose name is Adam, and they
steal them. Actually, I mighthave inverted the names. It
doesn't even matter, because areyou kidding me? John Bolton
comes home and he's like, I havekilled Nick Cage. He is my
(21:47):
mortal enemy. My face is backon, and also I have a 15 second
I have scooped the baby. I losta baby. I wanted the baby. My
life was bad. Without the baby,I stole a criminal's baby.
Actually, I told the criminal tosteal his baby. It is a movie
about adoption. I'm done
Megan Goodwin (22:02):
with two seconds to spare. That was Elise Ryan
Morgenstein first with, are youfucking kidding me? Parentheses,
don't go chasing facewaterfalls. I
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (22:13):
don't think anyone knows what face
waterfalls means, but I'm hopingthat you are how to just get me
listener, dear nerds. Wow, thatwas hilariously fun. That was
really great. I know why Bowenand Matt do that now. Yes, we
Megan Goodwin (22:26):
should play more.
Also, feel free to let us knowon Instagram, what other things
we should yell about. Aren't Areyou fucking kidding me? Because
I feel like we should bring thatone
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (22:35):
back.
We shouldn't just wholesalesteal someone else's bit. But
that was good for it. That wasgood and fun. This
Megan Goodwin (22:42):
officially concludes our miniseries on
religion, adoption nurse. Wow.
What a tradition I know. I knowthat's good. That's what I
really specialize in, likereally gentle transitions. And
everything definitely makessense. And you can definitely
tell where the fuck I'm comingfrom at all times.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (22:56):
No, no, we're nothing if not abrupt.
Megan Goodwin (22:59):
Sure, I don't know what you mean. Once again,
thanks for sticking with us. Andthanks to Dr Courtney Lewis and
Dr Lisa Monroe for theircontributions to this series.
Homework. What homework? I don'thave any homework because I feel
like y'all have done enough atthis point. We don't have
resources.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (23:15):
Just go watch face off and tell me
how much you love it, becauseit's the greatest movie
Megan Goodwin (23:19):
of all time, and learn for yourself what a face
waterfall is, and then please doit to everyone that you love.
Don't
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (23:25):
ever do that to anyone
Megan Goodwin (23:29):
but wash your hands. Wash your hands for us,
though, please. You can find usacross social media, still on
Twitter, reluctantly andinstead, Tiktok, Facebook, and
if none of that waterfalls yourface. You can subscribe to our
newsletter. There's a cutelittle form at the bottom of the
website, which is keeping it oneon one.com. Drop us a rating or
(23:50):
review in your podcaster choice.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (23:52):
If, after you've scooped all the
babies, you still want to inviteus to your campus or your local
bookstore to talk about thepodcast or religion is not done
with you. Please, please reachout to us directly, or to
Caitlin Meyer, our incrediblemarketing and publicity Maven
over at Beacon. All of thisinformation is on the website,
but just so you heard it, we'dlove to come visit so let us
know. And with that, peace out.
Adopter renos
Megan Goodwin (24:16):
and do your homework. It's on the syllabus.
And
Unknown (24:38):
I understand I'm trying to be the daily Scoop, scoop,
scoo scoop.
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