November 13, 2024 • 21 mins
In which we nerd out about how we chose which weirdass historical case studies to support our killjoy theories of religion.
As always, be sure to visit keepingit101.com for full show notes, homework, transcripts, & more.
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Keeping It 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion is proud to be part of the Amplify Podcast Network.
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Episode Transcript
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Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (00:17):
This is keeping it 101, a killjoys,
Introduction to religionpodcast, which is part of the
amplify Podcast Network, we'regrateful to live teach and
record on the current ancestraland unceded lands of the Abenaki
and Wabanaki peoples, as well asthe lands of one federally
recognized native nation, theEastern Band of Cherokee
Indians, and seven NorthCarolina state recognized tribal
(00:38):
entities. Increasingly, though,native folks are pushing us to
forgo land acknowledgementsaltogether and focus on action
items. So let's start with Laddand back. And as always, you can
find material ways to supportindigenous communities on our
website.
Unknown (00:52):
What's up? Nerds? Hi, hello. I'm Megan Goodwin, a
scholar of American religions,race and gender.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (00:59):
Hi, hello. I'm Ilyse Morgenstein
Fuerst, an historian ofreligion, Islam, race and
racialization and South Asia.
Unknown (01:05):
I'm sorry, did you just end historian us? I love that. I
love that as a jumping offpoint. This is welcome to banter
o'clock.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:12):
I was giggling in our names, so maybe
it's like, just mom o'clock andI'm done. But yeah, yeah, I
sometimes an historian. I likethat better. I love it better
than "uh historians. Then myaccent gets worse.
Unknown (01:27):
No, I like it because it sounds like the academic
equivalent of Anne with an E.
That's why I like it.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:36):
That's so specific and deadly accurate.
Unknown (01:41):
It's my brand. Welcome to banter o'clock, Ilyse, and
since time is normally my enemy,but banter is my favorite, I
think this is a schedule I canget behind.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:49):
Should I just rename every single
calendar invite that we send toeach other? Banter? Not. No.
Would that fix it? Yes, yes.
Megan Goodwin (01:58):
Let's I mean, we should try.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:00):
What do you want to banter about
today?
Unknown (02:02):
I can banter about any number of things. I have banters
about love Island. I got bantsabout The Boyfriend and I have
bants about several A24, movies.
I have very strong feelingsabout what just happened with
the ex Pearl, what anyway. But Ifigured we are probably here to
talk about writing.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:19):
Yeah, I guess so. But, like, I have
genuine opinions about why TaeHyun gets nary a gander from the
other house boys in Netflix theboyfriend. But I assume that
this is not the place to talkabout, like, Japanese racisms
against Koreans and beautystandards and things like that.
But I find that is a separatepodcast that we should
Megan Goodwin (02:40):
he is so attractive, though, and he is
competent, he's professional,
Unknown (02:44):
he's a he a grown up.
Why weren't they all sweatinghim?
Megan Goodwin (02:51):
They should sweat him
Unknown (02:54):
anyway. Dress like this and say, Yo, they didn't. They
didn't sweat the pretty one. I'mjust, I'm feeling so Jersey
sleaze. It's a great banter forus, and he is,
Megan Goodwin (03:10):
hey, hey, what are we doing today?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (03:12):
Yeah, what is on our docket today? I
feel like folks keep asking ushow we write, either the books
that we write individually orour podcast episodes, or more
often now our forthcomingventure Religion Is Not Done
With You, available from BeaconPress on any local bookstore as
pre orders and live on november5.
Unknown (03:33):
This is very exciting.
That is now that I have checkedour schedule. That is the
scheduled banter for today.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (03:39):
Oh, well, then can I be like, kind
of nudgy, then?
Megan Goodwin (03:43):
why should today be different?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (03:44):
That's that's fair. That is who I am as
a person. But like, we'vealready talked about how we
write the podcast and how wewrote our individual books and
articles and chapters. We'vetalked about the content of
those, we've talked about thatprocess. So like, I appreciate
that our dear nerds keep askingthe question, but is this one of
(04:05):
those moments where you justsay, like, I say to my children
asked and answered. Like, whatelse is there to say?
Unknown (04:12):
For more information, please see my published works.
Now I thought we could answerthe listener "How'd you do that"
with a specific line ofthinking, instead of like, "how
we do research?"Because theanswer to that is like grad
school. That's we did. We didresearch in grad school, and
then we just never stopped. It'sa dirty, dirty habit
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (04:28):
and not for nothing. Like I teach a
semester long class on methodsto undergrads, so I don't we
can't do that in 15-20 minutes
Unknown (04:37):
No, absolutely not. But we can talk about how we chose
our cases, why we thoughtparticular historical and
contemporary examples would besttell a story, because that's
both a practical bit of advicefor the listeners working on
their own writing projects, andit's also it's fun. Well, I
think it's fun. It's a fun wayto talk about how the sausage
gets made without being tooboring or overwrought or like
(04:58):
precious about it.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (05:00):
All right. Well, that sounds
reasonable. Goodwin, How did wepick our cases?
Unknown (05:05):
Rude? You're so rude.
That's how you want to play.
Okay? That's fine, fine, fine.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (05:11):
I mean, not really. We don't have
to play it that way. I can helpbut, like, either way, let's,
let's get into it. You.
Unknown (05:24):
All right. So you asked, how we pick our cases?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (05:27):
You want me to start over? Goodwin,
How did we pick our cases?
Unknown (05:32):
Well, from my perspective, we had to balance a
bunch of stuff, including ourreally widely different areas of
expertise. I know it's easysometimes to default to the US.
Our audience is largely NorthAmerican, and when it's not,
it's British, and British folksare familiar enough with
American stuff that it basicallyworks. It's translatable without
dictionaries, and real talk asmuch as you. Rag on Americanists
(05:54):
for knowing one thing,myopically, the fact is, ju suis
an Americanist,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (06:00):
my whole brain wants to do like a
proud to be an Americanist,where at least I know I don't
have to learn any languages.
Megan Goodwin (06:09):
See, I really thought we were gonna do a drop
dead gorgeous there. But yes,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (06:13):
no, I was going like full sleeze
Unknown (06:16):
I see you. I see you.
Okay, first of all, first ofall, I had to take French and
German. Thank you very much. DidI learn? Arguably, no, arguably,
no. I did not learn them, but Idid take and pass those courses,
in addition to Latin andbiblical Hebrew for my first
master's thesis. So there thatshe said that being said, Please
never ask me to do anytranslation work whatsoever
(06:38):
without the help of GoogleTranslate.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (06:41):
Okay, an entire field of people's
bottoms just fell out like theysphincters are failing, but
you're like, Yeah, I use Google.
No,
Unknown (06:51):
okay, yeah, no, I'm the worst. No one asked me to do non
English stuff unless it's speakinternet, in which case I am
fluent. Yes. Also, the factremains that it's a lot easier
to get through hard and oftencounter intuitive theoretical
concepts, if you don't also haveto catch up your readers on
millennia of unfamiliar historyand also where Kashmir is or
(07:12):
that it exists in the firstplace.
Megan Goodwin (07:17):
All right, fine.
Americans might be the worst.
Anyway, as I was saying (07:18):
Our book is the book I was
contributing to. So obviously weneeded to include American case
studies. That's my expertise.
That's also our primaryaudience's assumed familiar
national history. Plus, as weexplain in our book, a lot,
American influence is global,ignoring what's now the USA just
doesn't make sense. America,sadly, is not done with any of
(07:41):
us, either.
But I also know that you bringSouth Asia, and frankly, a lot
of the rest of the world at thetable. So we also needed to talk
about the rest of the world, Iguess, both, becaus--whatever I
can, I can afford it. I'mAmerican. It hurts right? That's
(08:03):
American altruism, right there,yeah, yeah, yeah, we are
exceptional. So we had to talkabout the rest of the world, I
suppose, both because of howreligion plays out globally, but
also because this is a book thatyou are also writing, and a book
that you write needs to be abouta thing or some things that you
are an expert on.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (08:20):
yeah, totally. So like, in terms of
the nitty gritty, I feel like wefigured out the themes of each
chapter, how they might progressand hang together, and then we
almost verbatim said to eachother, oh, yeah, this needs to
go back and forth betweenAmerican examples and non
American examples.
Megan Goodwin (08:39):
Yeah, yeah. We're going to talk about the writing
together process on a futureepisode. But once we figured it
out, it was, we were, it wasthat brain sync moment of like,
oh, okay, I got it, yeah, okay,America, not America. America,
not America. And it just, itjust worked, yeah? So why these
particular case studies, though?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (09:02):
I think the easiest way to do this
is just to go beat by beat. Sofor me, chapter what we do an
introduction. It's cute, it'sclever. You'll love it. It
sounds like us. And then chapterone is where we kind of like dig
in, right? And Chapter One isall about what religion is and
isn't. And I made that aboutsports, especially Boston
sports, because that is aweirdly shared thing for us.
(09:24):
Neither of us are from Boston,but we both lived in Boston at
formative parts of our lives,and because it's a sport,
baseball that is, that has aglobal reach, both because of
American imperialism andcultural imperialism, but it's
also like baseball and sportsand Boston in particular, are a
fun, non religious way to thinkabout culture, community, power,
(09:45):
ritual and belonging. So thiswas like, we knew the key things
we needed to talk about, and wewanted an easy, peasy way to
ease in that felt recognizableand maybe somewhat familiar in
that famous phrase where,like--If you make the strange
familiar and the familiarstrange that you have a lot to
learn there.
Unknown (10:04):
Yes, and Boston is both very familiar to me and super
strange, so
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (10:08):
the strangest.
Megan Goodwin (10:10):
So I think it worked pretty well for us. So
chapter two is all about you'llnever guess. It's a book that
Ilyse wrote. It's imperialism.
It's imperialism, which isobviously fully or jam. I think
we did a decent job of showingthat conversations about
imperialism don't start or endwith the US, duh, but also that
they can't exclude the USbecause we are an Imperial Force
and a colonized space ourselves.
(10:34):
So we chose to talk about theDoctrine of Discovery, because,
honestly, we had to how you'regoing to talk about imperialism
without acknowledging thatWestern European Christianity
called dibs on the whole rest ofthe world. But also that case is
easily accessible. You canGoogle it for now and get really
decent information before youhit a ton of misinformation. The
Doctrine of Discovery has a muchbroader impact than just what's
(10:56):
now the US. It's all of theAmericas, the entire continent
of Africa, giant chunks of Asia,and then the other half is just
straight up your work in SouthAsia about borders and
nationalism and religion,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (11:07):
yeah, yeah, that's where the maps are
after that, with beautiful mapsthat we had redrawn so they
would print beautifully some 150years After they were originally
printed. Anyway, in chapterthree, we moved from all that
imperialism and race stuff goingon in chapter two right to the
(11:28):
USA because, well, of you,Goodwin,
Megan Goodwin (11:31):
this is my fault,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (11:34):
but also because we needed to talk
about race. It makes sense to gofrom imperialism and race to
race, as it plays out withreligion, and that's what you do
here in the US. And so there'sno reason not to have made that
our case study. But not justlaziness. But the reality is, is
that American understandings ofrace so clearly play with
(11:57):
European understandings of bothrace and Western European
Christian imperialism, plus aheady mix of scientific racism,
which flourishes in the UnitedStates, really, alongside our
particular heady cocktail ofChristianity. So in this
chapter, our case study neededto hit all of those things, and
(12:19):
which meant it was a great placefor us to talk about Sojourner
Truth, Native American activism,and how often, quote, religious
freedom fails, minoritizedreligio racial communities,
among lots of other things.
There's a lot going on.
Actually, there's a lot going onall these chapters. But in this
chapter where we're cherrypicking, not cherry picking,
where we're highlighting casesthat fit the theme. There's no
(12:43):
shortage of American race andreligion to talk about true
story.
Unknown (12:48):
And so from race and racialization, we went to
sexuality and nationalism inchapter four, religion is
politics, because conversationsabout reproductive justice and
bodily autonomy are some of theclearest places to see white
Christian nationalist thinkingat work in supposedly secular
places. That's really theentirety of my first book. So
you best believe law, andespecially us, law has a firm
place there.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (13:10):
Yeah, no, the legal history is super
fascinating, and it helps ustell a story that isn't about
like, how much can a societylearn, which is an interesting
but ultimately deeplyunfulfilling question when we're
thinking about like, what doesprogress look like? We see poll
after poll that shows us howpopular support for things like
abortion are at their highestacross religions, even in
(13:33):
conservative America. Or we seepolls that like how minorities
or attitudes toward minoritiesis actually pretty good, but
then you have to look at thesystem and say, like, hold up,
hold up. Our policies, ourinstitutions, are racist as
fuck. So how that work?
Yeah, right, and law is one ofthose places. Law is absolutely
one of those places. So like,why if we live in a country that
(13:56):
supposedly separates church andstate, a country whose
population overwhelminglysupports access to abortion. Why
are policies so aggressive, sodare we say, white Christian
nationalist? Why do policiesmade by a white Christian nation
such as our own get to shapepolicies all over the world?
Looking at legal codes andrestrictions about sexuality on
a global scale helped us showthe ways white Christian sexual
(14:17):
morality is still hard at work,even absent formal imperial
control of those regions.
And then we wrap it up. Man, wejust were like, done. That's a
lot of stuff to read. So all theway at the end, we're talking
about airports, which, if you'vemet me, you know that I think
airports are really importantand deeply frustrating places,
(14:38):
because they are national andinternational, unique and
distinctive, they show usAmerican global power,
particularly after 911 whilealso demonstrating how local
governments do their own TSA andTSA adjacent stuff all the time,
thinking about enactingreinscribing and policing,
(14:58):
religion, race. Nation andsexuality.
Megan Goodwin (15:02):
Yeah, yeah. So yeah. Basically, we chose case
studies that felt relevant tomajor global issues, that would
be interesting, if notnecessarily familiar to regular
folks living in the world, butalso case studies that let us be
ourselves, theorists of race,religion, gender, nation and
politics, whose expertise livesin specific regions and time
periods.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (15:21):
Yeah, as we were choosing what to do
in this book, not just like, oh,we have to write a book. Well,
like, now, how do you fill thepages? We wanted y'all to learn
some new things, but not be sobogged down in some micro
history of like, the Indianstate of Maharashtra, so that
you miss the forest for thetrees. So we chose cases both in
our wheelhouse that could orshould be adjacent to your own
(15:44):
issues and certainly that fitthe themes of the given chapter.
Yeah,
Megan Goodwin (15:50):
we also left a lot on the cutting room floor,
to be honest. Boy hamplo Ermfinnishly proposed soccer as the
framework for our sportschapter. She said it would work
better. She is probably right,but unless it is about bend, it
Like Beckham or Ted lasso or podinappropriate feelings about
Megan Rapinoe, I had nothing tocontribute to that conversation,
whereas I arguably had too muchephemera to contribute to a
(16:12):
conversation about the earlyaughts Red Sox, at least made me
take out a lot of complainingabout Johnny Damon, for
starters. Also, most of ourAmerican readers would maybe
vaguely get it, but like, soccerisn't our thing as a country.
It's everyone else's, everyoneelse's, but it's not ours. And
the point wasn't the sport, butrather how sport works as a
metaphor for thinking aboutreligion as a system so red, Sox
(16:34):
Nation, it became. And
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (16:36):
I wouldn't say Goodwin. I wouldn't
say that we struggled over howto talk about race and religion
at all that is literally how youand I make a living. But there
are so many juicy, absurd,infuriating, fucked up cases
that finding the perfect one, Iwouldn't say it was a debate.
I'm not sure you would say itwas a debate, but it was
(16:57):
definitely a discussion. We knewwe'd done Sojourner Truth's
speeches in an episode in SeasonTwo, way back when. But the
reality is, it remained the bestexample. It was demonstrative
and clear and in writing, theimposition of what can only be
described as blackfacetranslation of truth's ain't I a
(17:18):
woman? Speech is just soshocking. And to see it in
writing, I actually think it'smore effective than what we did
on the audio medium that is apodcast. So it's not that we're
repeating cases, it's reallythat the medium changes the
message,
Unknown (17:37):
yeah, and
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (17:39):
I think some of this was also
trusting each other's sense ofwhich case studies would work
best, coming from our ownexpertise. So like, as you might
say, I didn't know nothing aboutImperial gazetteers. Listeners,
if you like me, did not knowwhat a Gazetteer is, it is not a
newspaper. And I got a verydirty look for asking that.
Yeah, you kept telling me, withthat incredulous look on your
(18:01):
face that I should know. Yeah,that one. That's nothing.
Megan Goodwin (18:07):
I don't see. No gazetteers. But it turns out,
even though we had to work onhow to teach our readers enough
about gazetteers to understandthe South Asian case study, they
supported. You were right. Itwas a great example about
imperialism and borders and thelasting effect of how British
researchers and officials andpolicies still impact us today.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (18:25):
Well, I appreciate that trust, even
though I acknowledge that Icontinually will make faces
about Americanists, because in auniverse in which y'all get to
have a PhD, arguably the samedegree as me, but say things
like, I'm a Boston expert, Icouldn't possibly know about
Atlanta. It's different, somefucking hot nonsense. And I will
(18:47):
never not make fun of the studyof America. It is less than 300
years of state history, which isnot even one dynasty in my neck
of the woods.
Megan Goodwin (18:58):
So just just to clarify, Dr Ilyse, Ryan
Morgenstein, first twoAmericanists, you're tacky, and
I hate you, but you digress.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuers (19:09):
Listen, I will never forgive the person
who shall remain, nameless, whotold me that thinking the I 95
corridor was one contiguouswhole was a mistake, and I
really wanted to be like everyevery state in India has a
different has a differentlanguage, and we treat it as one
place. So kindly, shut the fuckup. You sound as obnoxious as
someone being like, uh, this hotdog is technically from Coney
(19:34):
Island, and that's specific. Andyou're like, okay, cool. That's
a cool fact.
Cool fact, bro,
Megan Goodwin (19:43):
remember how mad I got anytime I have to talk
about anything that happenedbefore 1979
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (19:47):
Yeah, I remember how I make the same
face at you that I'm makingright now, because you should
shut the up. You should, youshould, you should have to know
things before you were born thatseems basic. Mm. Anyway, I
digress. You did, and you did,in short. Megan, aside from my
digression into why Americanhistory makes me grumpy, we
(20:11):
chose cases, yes, in the UnitedStates and elsewhere, that we
think are accessible but notboring, impactful, but not
routine, and that honored bothof our expertise, even if it's
on the i 95 corridor, so that wecould both have our names on the
front of the book and not havefolks ask questions like, Did
(20:32):
one of you not write anything atall
Megan Goodwin (20:35):
correct? And that, beloved nerds, is how we
chose the case studies forreligion is not done with you.
Forthcoming from Beacon Press inNovember 2024 you can find us
across social media, still onTwitter, reluctantly, and
instead Tiktok and Facebook andnone of those wiggles your toes.
We have a newsletter you canjoin via our website, which is
keeping it one on one.com, dropus a rating or review and your
(20:59):
podcaster of choice, and if
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (21:00):
you want to invite us to campus or
your local bookstore, which ishappening with more regular
frequency, please, please,please reach out to us. We would
love that. Or specifically reachout to Caitlin Meyer, who's our
incredible marketing andpublicity Maven over at Beacon
Press. All of that contactinformation is on the website,
but just so you heard it, wewould love to come visit, get in
(21:21):
touch early and often, and withthat, peace Out. Nerds.
Megan Goodwin (21:25):
Do your homework.
It's on the syllabus. You
Unknown (21:50):
Me is the right when you take a look.
This is keeping it 101, a killjoys,
Introduction to religionpodcast, which is part of the
amplify Podcast Network, we'regrateful to live teach and
record on the current ancestraland unceded lands of the Abenaki
and Wabanaki peoples, as well asthe lands of one federally
recognized native nation, theEastern Band of Cherokee
Indians, and seven NorthCarolina state recognized tribal
(00:38):
entities. Increasingly, though,native folks are pushing us to
forgo land acknowledgementsaltogether and focus on action
items. So let's start with Laddand back. And as always, you can
find material ways to supportindigenous communities on our
website.
Unknown (00:52):
What's up? Nerds? Hi, hello. I'm Megan Goodwin, a
scholar of American religions,race and gender.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (00:59):
Hi, hello. I'm Ilyse Morgenstein
Fuerst, an historian ofreligion, Islam, race and
racialization and South Asia.
Unknown (01:05):
I'm sorry, did you just end historian us? I love that. I
love that as a jumping offpoint. This is welcome to banter
o'clock.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:12):
I was giggling in our names, so maybe
it's like, just mom o'clock andI'm done. But yeah, yeah, I
sometimes an historian. I likethat better. I love it better
than "uh historians. Then myaccent gets worse.
Unknown (01:27):
No, I like it because it sounds like the academic
equivalent of Anne with an E.
That's why I like it.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:36):
That's so specific and deadly accurate.
Unknown (01:41):
It's my brand. Welcome to banter o'clock, Ilyse, and
since time is normally my enemy,but banter is my favorite, I
think this is a schedule I canget behind.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (01:49):
Should I just rename every single
calendar invite that we send toeach other? Banter? Not. No.
Would that fix it? Yes, yes.
Megan Goodwin (01:58):
Let's I mean, we should try.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:00):
What do you want to banter about
today?
Unknown (02:02):
I can banter about any number of things. I have banters
about love Island. I got bantsabout The Boyfriend and I have
bants about several A24, movies.
I have very strong feelingsabout what just happened with
the ex Pearl, what anyway. But Ifigured we are probably here to
talk about writing.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (02:19):
Yeah, I guess so. But, like, I have
genuine opinions about why TaeHyun gets nary a gander from the
other house boys in Netflix theboyfriend. But I assume that
this is not the place to talkabout, like, Japanese racisms
against Koreans and beautystandards and things like that.
But I find that is a separatepodcast that we should
Megan Goodwin (02:40):
he is so attractive, though, and he is
competent, he's professional,
Unknown (02:44):
he's a he a grown up.
Why weren't they all sweatinghim?
Megan Goodwin (02:51):
They should sweat him
Unknown (02:54):
anyway. Dress like this and say, Yo, they didn't. They
didn't sweat the pretty one. I'mjust, I'm feeling so Jersey
sleaze. It's a great banter forus, and he is,
Megan Goodwin (03:10):
hey, hey, what are we doing today?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (03:12):
Yeah, what is on our docket today? I
feel like folks keep asking ushow we write, either the books
that we write individually orour podcast episodes, or more
often now our forthcomingventure Religion Is Not Done
With You, available from BeaconPress on any local bookstore as
pre orders and live on november5.
Unknown (03:33):
This is very exciting.
That is now that I have checkedour schedule. That is the
scheduled banter for today.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (03:39):
Oh, well, then can I be like, kind
of nudgy, then?
Megan Goodwin (03:43):
why should today be different?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (03:44):
That's that's fair. That is who I am as
a person. But like, we'vealready talked about how we
write the podcast and how wewrote our individual books and
articles and chapters. We'vetalked about the content of
those, we've talked about thatprocess. So like, I appreciate
that our dear nerds keep askingthe question, but is this one of
(04:05):
those moments where you justsay, like, I say to my children
asked and answered. Like, whatelse is there to say?
Unknown (04:12):
For more information, please see my published works.
Now I thought we could answerthe listener "How'd you do that"
with a specific line ofthinking, instead of like, "how
we do research?"Because theanswer to that is like grad
school. That's we did. We didresearch in grad school, and
then we just never stopped. It'sa dirty, dirty habit
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (04:28):
and not for nothing. Like I teach a
semester long class on methodsto undergrads, so I don't we
can't do that in 15-20 minutes
Unknown (04:37):
No, absolutely not. But we can talk about how we chose
our cases, why we thoughtparticular historical and
contemporary examples would besttell a story, because that's
both a practical bit of advicefor the listeners working on
their own writing projects, andit's also it's fun. Well, I
think it's fun. It's a fun wayto talk about how the sausage
gets made without being tooboring or overwrought or like
(04:58):
precious about it.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (05:00):
All right. Well, that sounds
reasonable. Goodwin, How did wepick our cases?
Unknown (05:05):
Rude? You're so rude.
That's how you want to play.
Okay? That's fine, fine, fine.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (05:11):
I mean, not really. We don't have
to play it that way. I can helpbut, like, either way, let's,
let's get into it. You.
Unknown (05:24):
All right. So you asked, how we pick our cases?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (05:27):
You want me to start over? Goodwin,
How did we pick our cases?
Unknown (05:32):
Well, from my perspective, we had to balance a
bunch of stuff, including ourreally widely different areas of
expertise. I know it's easysometimes to default to the US.
Our audience is largely NorthAmerican, and when it's not,
it's British, and British folksare familiar enough with
American stuff that it basicallyworks. It's translatable without
dictionaries, and real talk asmuch as you. Rag on Americanists
(05:54):
for knowing one thing,myopically, the fact is, ju suis
an Americanist,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (06:00):
my whole brain wants to do like a
proud to be an Americanist,where at least I know I don't
have to learn any languages.
Megan Goodwin (06:09):
See, I really thought we were gonna do a drop
dead gorgeous there. But yes,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (06:13):
no, I was going like full sleeze
Unknown (06:16):
I see you. I see you.
Okay, first of all, first ofall, I had to take French and
German. Thank you very much. DidI learn? Arguably, no, arguably,
no. I did not learn them, but Idid take and pass those courses,
in addition to Latin andbiblical Hebrew for my first
master's thesis. So there thatshe said that being said, Please
never ask me to do anytranslation work whatsoever
(06:38):
without the help of GoogleTranslate.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (06:41):
Okay, an entire field of people's
bottoms just fell out like theysphincters are failing, but
you're like, Yeah, I use Google.
No,
Unknown (06:51):
okay, yeah, no, I'm the worst. No one asked me to do non
English stuff unless it's speakinternet, in which case I am
fluent. Yes. Also, the factremains that it's a lot easier
to get through hard and oftencounter intuitive theoretical
concepts, if you don't also haveto catch up your readers on
millennia of unfamiliar historyand also where Kashmir is or
(07:12):
that it exists in the firstplace.
Megan Goodwin (07:17):
All right, fine.
Americans might be the worst.
Anyway, as I was saying (07:18):
Our book is the book I was
contributing to. So obviously weneeded to include American case
studies. That's my expertise.
That's also our primaryaudience's assumed familiar
national history. Plus, as weexplain in our book, a lot,
American influence is global,ignoring what's now the USA just
doesn't make sense. America,sadly, is not done with any of
(07:41):
us, either.
But I also know that you bringSouth Asia, and frankly, a lot
of the rest of the world at thetable. So we also needed to talk
about the rest of the world, Iguess, both, becaus--whatever I
can, I can afford it. I'mAmerican. It hurts right? That's
(08:03):
American altruism, right there,yeah, yeah, yeah, we are
exceptional. So we had to talkabout the rest of the world, I
suppose, both because of howreligion plays out globally, but
also because this is a book thatyou are also writing, and a book
that you write needs to be abouta thing or some things that you
are an expert on.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (08:20):
yeah, totally. So like, in terms of
the nitty gritty, I feel like wefigured out the themes of each
chapter, how they might progressand hang together, and then we
almost verbatim said to eachother, oh, yeah, this needs to
go back and forth betweenAmerican examples and non
American examples.
Megan Goodwin (08:39):
Yeah, yeah. We're going to talk about the writing
together process on a futureepisode. But once we figured it
out, it was, we were, it wasthat brain sync moment of like,
oh, okay, I got it, yeah, okay,America, not America. America,
not America. And it just, itjust worked, yeah? So why these
particular case studies, though?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (09:02):
I think the easiest way to do this
is just to go beat by beat. Sofor me, chapter what we do an
introduction. It's cute, it'sclever. You'll love it. It
sounds like us. And then chapterone is where we kind of like dig
in, right? And Chapter One isall about what religion is and
isn't. And I made that aboutsports, especially Boston
sports, because that is aweirdly shared thing for us.
(09:24):
Neither of us are from Boston,but we both lived in Boston at
formative parts of our lives,and because it's a sport,
baseball that is, that has aglobal reach, both because of
American imperialism andcultural imperialism, but it's
also like baseball and sportsand Boston in particular, are a
fun, non religious way to thinkabout culture, community, power,
(09:45):
ritual and belonging. So thiswas like, we knew the key things
we needed to talk about, and wewanted an easy, peasy way to
ease in that felt recognizableand maybe somewhat familiar in
that famous phrase where,like--If you make the strange
familiar and the familiarstrange that you have a lot to
learn there.
Unknown (10:04):
Yes, and Boston is both very familiar to me and super
strange, so
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (10:08):
the strangest.
Megan Goodwin (10:10):
So I think it worked pretty well for us. So
chapter two is all about you'llnever guess. It's a book that
Ilyse wrote. It's imperialism.
It's imperialism, which isobviously fully or jam. I think
we did a decent job of showingthat conversations about
imperialism don't start or endwith the US, duh, but also that
they can't exclude the USbecause we are an Imperial Force
and a colonized space ourselves.
(10:34):
So we chose to talk about theDoctrine of Discovery, because,
honestly, we had to how you'regoing to talk about imperialism
without acknowledging thatWestern European Christianity
called dibs on the whole rest ofthe world. But also that case is
easily accessible. You canGoogle it for now and get really
decent information before youhit a ton of misinformation. The
Doctrine of Discovery has a muchbroader impact than just what's
(10:56):
now the US. It's all of theAmericas, the entire continent
of Africa, giant chunks of Asia,and then the other half is just
straight up your work in SouthAsia about borders and
nationalism and religion,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (11:07):
yeah, yeah, that's where the maps are
after that, with beautiful mapsthat we had redrawn so they
would print beautifully some 150years After they were originally
printed. Anyway, in chapterthree, we moved from all that
imperialism and race stuff goingon in chapter two right to the
(11:28):
USA because, well, of you,Goodwin,
Megan Goodwin (11:31):
this is my fault,
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (11:34):
but also because we needed to talk
about race. It makes sense to gofrom imperialism and race to
race, as it plays out withreligion, and that's what you do
here in the US. And so there'sno reason not to have made that
our case study. But not justlaziness. But the reality is, is
that American understandings ofrace so clearly play with
(11:57):
European understandings of bothrace and Western European
Christian imperialism, plus aheady mix of scientific racism,
which flourishes in the UnitedStates, really, alongside our
particular heady cocktail ofChristianity. So in this
chapter, our case study neededto hit all of those things, and
(12:19):
which meant it was a great placefor us to talk about Sojourner
Truth, Native American activism,and how often, quote, religious
freedom fails, minoritizedreligio racial communities,
among lots of other things.
There's a lot going on.
Actually, there's a lot going onall these chapters. But in this
chapter where we're cherrypicking, not cherry picking,
where we're highlighting casesthat fit the theme. There's no
(12:43):
shortage of American race andreligion to talk about true
story.
Unknown (12:48):
And so from race and racialization, we went to
sexuality and nationalism inchapter four, religion is
politics, because conversationsabout reproductive justice and
bodily autonomy are some of theclearest places to see white
Christian nationalist thinkingat work in supposedly secular
places. That's really theentirety of my first book. So
you best believe law, andespecially us, law has a firm
place there.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (13:10):
Yeah, no, the legal history is super
fascinating, and it helps ustell a story that isn't about
like, how much can a societylearn, which is an interesting
but ultimately deeplyunfulfilling question when we're
thinking about like, what doesprogress look like? We see poll
after poll that shows us howpopular support for things like
abortion are at their highestacross religions, even in
(13:33):
conservative America. Or we seepolls that like how minorities
or attitudes toward minoritiesis actually pretty good, but
then you have to look at thesystem and say, like, hold up,
hold up. Our policies, ourinstitutions, are racist as
fuck. So how that work?
Yeah, right, and law is one ofthose places. Law is absolutely
one of those places. So like,why if we live in a country that
(13:56):
supposedly separates church andstate, a country whose
population overwhelminglysupports access to abortion. Why
are policies so aggressive, sodare we say, white Christian
nationalist? Why do policiesmade by a white Christian nation
such as our own get to shapepolicies all over the world?
Looking at legal codes andrestrictions about sexuality on
a global scale helped us showthe ways white Christian sexual
(14:17):
morality is still hard at work,even absent formal imperial
control of those regions.
And then we wrap it up. Man, wejust were like, done. That's a
lot of stuff to read. So all theway at the end, we're talking
about airports, which, if you'vemet me, you know that I think
airports are really importantand deeply frustrating places,
(14:38):
because they are national andinternational, unique and
distinctive, they show usAmerican global power,
particularly after 911 whilealso demonstrating how local
governments do their own TSA andTSA adjacent stuff all the time,
thinking about enactingreinscribing and policing,
(14:58):
religion, race. Nation andsexuality.
Megan Goodwin (15:02):
Yeah, yeah. So yeah. Basically, we chose case
studies that felt relevant tomajor global issues, that would
be interesting, if notnecessarily familiar to regular
folks living in the world, butalso case studies that let us be
ourselves, theorists of race,religion, gender, nation and
politics, whose expertise livesin specific regions and time
periods.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (15:21):
Yeah, as we were choosing what to do
in this book, not just like, oh,we have to write a book. Well,
like, now, how do you fill thepages? We wanted y'all to learn
some new things, but not be sobogged down in some micro
history of like, the Indianstate of Maharashtra, so that
you miss the forest for thetrees. So we chose cases both in
our wheelhouse that could orshould be adjacent to your own
(15:44):
issues and certainly that fitthe themes of the given chapter.
Yeah,
Megan Goodwin (15:50):
we also left a lot on the cutting room floor,
to be honest. Boy hamplo Ermfinnishly proposed soccer as the
framework for our sportschapter. She said it would work
better. She is probably right,but unless it is about bend, it
Like Beckham or Ted lasso or podinappropriate feelings about
Megan Rapinoe, I had nothing tocontribute to that conversation,
whereas I arguably had too muchephemera to contribute to a
(16:12):
conversation about the earlyaughts Red Sox, at least made me
take out a lot of complainingabout Johnny Damon, for
starters. Also, most of ourAmerican readers would maybe
vaguely get it, but like, soccerisn't our thing as a country.
It's everyone else's, everyoneelse's, but it's not ours. And
the point wasn't the sport, butrather how sport works as a
metaphor for thinking aboutreligion as a system so red, Sox
(16:34):
Nation, it became. And
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (16:36):
I wouldn't say Goodwin. I wouldn't
say that we struggled over howto talk about race and religion
at all that is literally how youand I make a living. But there
are so many juicy, absurd,infuriating, fucked up cases
that finding the perfect one, Iwouldn't say it was a debate.
I'm not sure you would say itwas a debate, but it was
(16:57):
definitely a discussion. We knewwe'd done Sojourner Truth's
speeches in an episode in SeasonTwo, way back when. But the
reality is, it remained the bestexample. It was demonstrative
and clear and in writing, theimposition of what can only be
described as blackfacetranslation of truth's ain't I a
(17:18):
woman? Speech is just soshocking. And to see it in
writing, I actually think it'smore effective than what we did
on the audio medium that is apodcast. So it's not that we're
repeating cases, it's reallythat the medium changes the
message,
Unknown (17:37):
yeah, and
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (17:39):
I think some of this was also
trusting each other's sense ofwhich case studies would work
best, coming from our ownexpertise. So like, as you might
say, I didn't know nothing aboutImperial gazetteers. Listeners,
if you like me, did not knowwhat a Gazetteer is, it is not a
newspaper. And I got a verydirty look for asking that.
Yeah, you kept telling me, withthat incredulous look on your
(18:01):
face that I should know. Yeah,that one. That's nothing.
Megan Goodwin (18:07):
I don't see. No gazetteers. But it turns out,
even though we had to work onhow to teach our readers enough
about gazetteers to understandthe South Asian case study, they
supported. You were right. Itwas a great example about
imperialism and borders and thelasting effect of how British
researchers and officials andpolicies still impact us today.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (18:25):
Well, I appreciate that trust, even
though I acknowledge that Icontinually will make faces
about Americanists, because in auniverse in which y'all get to
have a PhD, arguably the samedegree as me, but say things
like, I'm a Boston expert, Icouldn't possibly know about
Atlanta. It's different, somefucking hot nonsense. And I will
(18:47):
never not make fun of the studyof America. It is less than 300
years of state history, which isnot even one dynasty in my neck
of the woods.
Megan Goodwin (18:58):
So just just to clarify, Dr Ilyse, Ryan
Morgenstein, first twoAmericanists, you're tacky, and
I hate you, but you digress.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuers (19:09):
Listen, I will never forgive the person
who shall remain, nameless, whotold me that thinking the I 95
corridor was one contiguouswhole was a mistake, and I
really wanted to be like everyevery state in India has a
different has a differentlanguage, and we treat it as one
place. So kindly, shut the fuckup. You sound as obnoxious as
someone being like, uh, this hotdog is technically from Coney
(19:34):
Island, and that's specific. Andyou're like, okay, cool. That's
a cool fact.
Cool fact, bro,
Megan Goodwin (19:43):
remember how mad I got anytime I have to talk
about anything that happenedbefore 1979
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (19:47):
Yeah, I remember how I make the same
face at you that I'm makingright now, because you should
shut the up. You should, youshould, you should have to know
things before you were born thatseems basic. Mm. Anyway, I
digress. You did, and you did,in short. Megan, aside from my
digression into why Americanhistory makes me grumpy, we
(20:11):
chose cases, yes, in the UnitedStates and elsewhere, that we
think are accessible but notboring, impactful, but not
routine, and that honored bothof our expertise, even if it's
on the i 95 corridor, so that wecould both have our names on the
front of the book and not havefolks ask questions like, Did
(20:32):
one of you not write anything atall
Megan Goodwin (20:35):
correct? And that, beloved nerds, is how we
chose the case studies forreligion is not done with you.
Forthcoming from Beacon Press inNovember 2024 you can find us
across social media, still onTwitter, reluctantly, and
instead Tiktok and Facebook andnone of those wiggles your toes.
We have a newsletter you canjoin via our website, which is
keeping it one on one.com, dropus a rating or review and your
(20:59):
podcaster of choice, and if
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst (21:00):
you want to invite us to campus or
your local bookstore, which ishappening with more regular
frequency, please, please,please reach out to us. We would
love that. Or specifically reachout to Caitlin Meyer, who's our
incredible marketing andpublicity Maven over at Beacon
Press. All of that contactinformation is on the website,
but just so you heard it, wewould love to come visit, get in
(21:21):
touch early and often, and withthat, peace Out. Nerds.
Megan Goodwin (21:25):
Do your homework.
It's on the syllabus. You
Unknown (21:50):
Me is the right when you take a look.
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