April 30, 2024 • 38 mins
In this episode of the Ketones and Coffee podcast, I interview Robert Sikes, also known as Keto Savage, the CEO and founder of Keto Savage and Keto Brick. Robert shares insights from his extensive experience in ketogenic bodybuilding, discussing his approach to diet and training, the benefits of a ketogenic diet for bodybuilders, and practical advice on diet adjustment, competition preparation, and maintaining balance between personal life and fitness goals.
Our conversation also delves into the mental aspects of bodybuilding, the importance of gradual calorie reduction, and the efficacy of the ketogenic diet compared to traditional bodybuilding diets. Additionally, Sykes introduces his comprehensive ketogenic bodybuilding prep course and emphasizes the significance of commitment and discipline in achieving fitness goals.
00:00 Welcome Robert Sykes: A Deep Dive into Keto Bodybuilding
00:35 Robert's Journey: Competitions, Business, and Family Life
01:16 Achievements and the Power of Keto in Bodybuilding
02:44 Balancing Business, Family, and Fitness
04:04 The Philosophy of No Regrets and Living Fully
06:27 Understanding the Bodybuilder's Routine and Diet
09:56 The Science of Keto Bodybuilding and Diet Optimization
20:52 The Importance of Gradual Caloric Reduction
31:25 Commitment and Discipline: The Key to Transformation
34:35 Introducing the Contest Prep Course: A Game Changer
36:21 Closing Thoughts and Gratitude
Connect with Keto Savage www.ketosavage.com
Keto Bricks: www.ketobrick.com
Comprehensive Keto Bodybuilding Course: www.ketobodybuilding.com
Call to action for listeners: Follow ketones and Coffee Podcast on Instagram ( https://www.instagram.com/keton.esncoffee ), Youtube ( https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsZZmBEenvZnU8tA1npAODA ),
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lorenz (00:00):
So I decided this guys today, we have a special guest
joining us, Robert Sykes, AKAKeto Savage, the CEO and founder
of Keto Savage, a health andfitness company and CEO and
founder of Keto brick, aketogenic meal replacement bar.
He also wrote a bodybuilding.
Robert Sykes, welcome back tothe ketones, the coffee podcast,
(00:21):
man.
Robert (00:22):
Hey man, I appreciate you having me.
I'm excited to be here chattingwith you.
It's an honor yet again.
Lorenz (00:27):
Awesome, man.
So I had you first back hereApril, 2022 episode 72,
actually.
Fast forward today, two yearsafter episode one 72, if you can
believe it, how have you been,man?
Robert (00:41):
It's been, it's been a crazy few years, man, as, as we
can all attest.
I mean, 2020 was wild.
2022, 2024.
It's crazy.
It's now 2024, but yeah, thispast year has been a, a doozy
for me with all the competitionsand the having a kiddo and then
all the business endeavors.
So we've been going a millionmiles an hour, but we're just,
It's happy to keep trucking,man.
(01:02):
We got a lot going on right now,but it's all exciting stuff.
Lorenz (01:05):
a million miles an hour is right, man.
I followed your socials, man.
And, you know, COVID didn'treally slow you down, brother.
So, I, I was following you onsocials, man.
You first talk at KetoCon when Ifirst had you on.
And since then, you've been amonster on stage, brother.
You've grown your business.
Like you talked about inOctober, you won WNBF natural
(01:25):
pro bodybuilder.
Congratulations.
And you talked about completeabsence of carbohydrates, bro.
How does that feel, man?
Robert (01:34):
It's good, man.
I mean, I've been doing keto nowfor eight or nine years, and I
competed in 2017 with theketogenic approach.
I got my pro card in a differentfederation then, and then I died
it down in 2020 to compete, butthen COVID canceled that like a
week before the show.
So 2020 yeah.
Three was, was time to just get,get to work and you know, put,
(01:54):
put what I had learned to thetable from a ketogenic
standpoint and did fivecompetitions over the course of
a few months.
I think my first one was end ofSeptember.
The last one was mid November.
So very busy competition seasonlast year and we were traveling
nonstop, driving to most ofthese shows from one end of the
coast to the next you know, witha one and a half year old
(02:15):
driving with us, so it was totalchaos, but a great experience
for sure and it was awesome todo it all with the ketogenic
approach, you know.
Lorenz (02:23):
Yeah, man.
And also love when you saidthat, you know, and I quote, I
truly hope that this winillustrates what it is possible
with a well formulated ketogenicdiet in the world of And that is
the mic drop right there, man.
You know, how in the world areyou able to do all this?
Man, you talked about havingyour businesses, being a father,
(02:45):
man, also coaching clients onthe side while doing
competitions, man, like how, howdo you put it in, in all, how do
you fit it in your schedule nowbeing here, you know, talking
about you, you have your ownpodcast, like how, how, how are
you able to fit all of that inyour schedule, man?
Robert (03:01):
man?
sometimes I don't know.
I feel like I'm spread prettythin right now, to be honest.
Like, I'm trying to prioritizethings, and I don't sleep very
much.
I can certainly say that Isacrifice sleep, which is not
ideal by any means, but that'sjust kind of what tends to get
pushed on the back burner, issleep.
But yeah, man, I feel likethere's just, we all have the
same amount of time in a day.
You got to prioritize the thingsthat you want to focus on.
(03:22):
I don't do many things thatwaste time.
I don't spend hours scrolling onInstagram.
I don't watch Netflix.
I don't have a TV.
So I don't do any time wastingthings by any means.
Lorenz (03:35):
Maybe I should have that.
Tutorial from you for not notgoing on social media too much
and scrolling.
Right?
You you know, I'm very gratefulfor what you're doing, man.
You're putting everybody onnotice.
Like, I subscribed on youremails.
And if I if I were you, I wouldtoo.
No junk, as promised, right?
Keto bodybuilding.
com.
(03:55):
And there was a quote there,man, that resonated with me,
that reads and I won't read thewhole quote.
It says, It goes, regret is farworse feeling than a temporary
low.
Like, a regret is far worse thanfeeling temporary low.
I like that, man.
And that might be the quote forme.
I just want to pick your braintoday on what that means to you,
(04:17):
man.
Like, what does that really meanto you?
Like, going back to, you know,from where you started what does
that mean?
Robert (04:25):
Yeah, I mean, regret, like I used to be filled with
regret.
I mean, there was times where Iwas working a job I didn't like.
I knew I was doing things that Iwasn't passionate about and I
didn't feel like I was living tomy full potential.
And now there's a lot of thingsthat I have left to do.
I don't feel like my life isdone by any means.
But I feel very confident thatI'm spending my time doing the
(04:48):
things that I am meant to bedoing.
I feel like I'm making apositive impact in this world.
And for that reason, if Iliterally was not able to wake
up tomorrow, if I didn't wake uptomorrow, I can confidently say
that I was able to live and diewithout regret and things left
undone.
Yes, there's things I still wantto do, but I'm doing everything
in my power to do those things.
I'm not leaving Anything in thetank, so to speak.
(05:11):
And I think with that comesperiods of time where you're
just like drained and depletedand exhausted and fatigued.
But I'm not feeling regret, youknow, so there's definitely low
moments, but I'd rather havethose low moments than a sense
of regret or feeling ofinadequacy.
So that's what it means for me.
Lorenz (05:29):
Yeah, man, that's strong when you're like, you're having
that bad day.
That's strong.
That quote, I'll keep that inmind.
Right somewhere, you know, it'sjust very powerful when you
think about it.
You know, down the line when,when it's all said and done,
man, you don't want to have afull of regrets.
Awesome, man.
You know, when I first had youon the show, you talked about
your story and how.
(05:50):
You broke free from disorderedeating, you developed from
bodybuilding, and how, you know,the ketogenic diet not only
improved your relationship withfood, but also allowed you to
surpass even your current levelof health and success.
I know we talked about howathletes in the bodybuilding
community may struggle with, youknow, disordered eating.
And I want to understand that,like, Can you take us through
(06:14):
what goes into a, you know,maybe a routine of a bodybuilder
at the start of the prep andthen the weeks after the
competition is done, what goesinto that that we don't
understand as regular peoplethat doesn't understand that
world?
Robert (06:28):
Yeah, I mean, well, traditionally, bodybuilders,
regardless of the diet you'refollowing, you're typically
tracking everything with a highdegree of accuracy, like you're
weighing out your food, you'remeasuring your macros, you're
Fats, proteins, carbohydratesconsumed, your calories
consumed, and you know, you'readjusting your calorie and
you're training appropriately soit's just a very measured,
regimented approach and you dothat for, you know, many, many
(06:52):
weeks, many, many months, likemy last prep was 33 weeks as an
example, and you get reallylean, you get really depleted,
really dialed in your hormonesare in a state of flux youryour
metabolism is downregulated,your leptin and ghrelin hormones
that regulate hunger and satietyare totally out of whack And
then when that show is over, andthere's nothing left on the
calendar to work towards, it'svery easy for many people to
(07:15):
just throw all caution to thewind and eat everything in sight
because they've felt depletedand restricted for so long.
And with that, there's just avery negative downward spiral
that oftentimes comes as thatbeing the catalyst.
And I mean, for me, my firstshow, I gained, you know, 20
pounds literally in 24 hours.
And I just felt very frustratedwith myself.
(07:39):
I didn't have any selfdiscipline.
I feel like I just thrown awayall the hard work that I'd
worked, you know, so hard for toget to that level of
conditioning and just thrown itaway in an instant.
And a lot of people that arefollowing more of a traditional
diet, you know, they'll, Eatreally clean, like a chicken,
broccoli, rice kind of approach.
And then when that show wasover, they just eat a whole
bunch of junk food, lots of, youknow, cakes, pizzas, and pies
(08:01):
and things of that nature,cookies.
And, you know, that's.
Just kind of leaning into thatdisordered eating tendency for
me with this last prep,especially I never changed the
style of foods I was eating itwas all the same types of foods
all the good quality foods.
I never like, you knowSacrificed a type of food that I
enjoyed eating.
I just simply Change the amountthat I was eating.
(08:23):
And when you're following a wellformulated ketogenic diet,
you're not eating really anyprocessed junk food anyways.
So after the show was over, Ijust simply scaled that intake
back up slowly.
But again, all coming from thesame foods that I enjoy eating
anyway.
So it was much easier to bridgethat gap and not kind of go into
a tailspin after the show wasover.
Lorenz (08:42):
Yeah, you can imagine like if you, if you go after a
show, after a competition, itwould go, you know, eat whatever
you wanted just because you'vebeen preparing for this for 33
weeks and you've, you've, youtalked about being depleted.
You know, and packing a lot ofweight, you know, weeks after
(09:04):
competition, then there's a lotof you know, struggle that
happens internally when you,when you talked about, you
worked hard, work your ass offjust to get into a level of
physique and then, you know, youlet yourself go you know, just
because the competition is over.
Right.
Do you think.
The ketogenic diet allows you tobe more, I wouldn't say
(09:28):
disciplined, but more dialed inwith lifestyle, you think?
Robert (09:34):
Evan Brand Yeah, well, the ketogenic diet, you know, if
implemented properly, puts apretty high emphasis of
importance on, you know,sourcing your food from quality,
quality ingredients from qualityanimal sources, knowing your
local farmer and rancher,ideally like a lot of that is
placed in high regard on a wellformulated ketogenic diet.
And if you're following thatkind of as the baseline, then
(09:56):
it's, It's harder to deviatefrom that willingly because you
understand and appreciate howquality food matters.
So if you don't really deviatethat from, from that much on the
norm, then after the show isover, then you don't really have
that broadest spectrum to tryand stray away from.
So it's kind of healthy andhelpful in that regard.
Now you will gain some body fatfor sure.
(10:17):
Like right now, I'm, I'm youknow, several pounds up from
what I was at the leanest stageweight, and that's okay.
That's what you want.
Like, you can't maintain thatshow day level of conditioning
indefinitely.
And you've got to embrace thatbody fat that comes at a healthy
rate and be okay with that, too.
And that's not easy either.
I mean, it's hard to seeyourself super dialed in and
conditioned.
And then like embrace body fatgain and not having that level
(10:40):
of definition, but, but you haveto have that yin to the yang, so
to speak.
Lorenz (10:46):
So would you say that on the ketogenic diet, when you're
doing prep for a competition,you weren't necessarily dieting?
You're not changing your Dietdrastically from like eating a
high carb meal to a, you know,chicken breast and broccoli type
of meal just to be ready for acompetition.
But on a ketogenic diet, you're,you're basically just, you know,
(11:10):
adjusting your fat intake andyour protein intake, but you're
essentially just eating the samemeals.
Does that
Robert (11:17):
Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty much doing the exact same thing
whether I'm in a prep or not,it's just the amounts that I'm
eating that changes and thelevel of accuracy and tracking.
Yeah, because when I'm in aprep, I'm tracking everything,
I'm weighing everything to thegram, everything is very dialed
in, but it's all the same foodsthat I eat now in the building
phase.
Yeah.
Thanks.
Lorenz (11:35):
How important is it?
Do you think that being dialedin and tracking everything you
even track hormone production?
Right?
I believe?
Robert (11:45):
I track, I mean, I get my blood work done, so I can see
where my hormones are at, but Itrack, you know, electrolyte
consumption, so how much saltI'm adding to my foods, like I
track everything.
Lorenz (11:54):
Is that something that regular bodybuilders I mean, you
know, non keto bodybuilders do?
Is that something that theytrack normally or not?
Robert (12:05):
They'll normally always, you know, weigh their foods and
get that, you know, macrostracked.
Not everybody weighs their saltand electrolytes not everybody
gets blood work drawn, but forme, the more, the more data you
have, the better.
You know, you can structure theplan and just make sure things
are dialed in.
I mean, what, what can bemeasured can be managed.
So for me, I like having all thedata that I possibly can.
Lorenz (12:26):
What do you think is the most important data that you've
added since keto that helpedyou, you know, stay consistent
or maintain the level ofphysique that you have, plus you
know, feeling good at the sametime.
Cause I, I, I, I'm not abodybuilder by any means, right.
(12:49):
But I, I do know when you dolower your calorie intake, that
it, it can get depleted, you canget depleted.
Is there a data that you'vestarted tracking that helped
your journey?
If you would rank it number onein your list, what would that
be?
Robert (13:09):
That's a good question.
I don't think there's like aobjective data point that I
think is, you know, has made aprofound difference for me.
So it's more so just theperspective overall, like I've
done.
So many competition preps nowthat I know what to expect and
how my body is going to respondat a given caloric intake at a
different macronutrientdistribution and ratio with a
(13:31):
certain amount of cardio, with acertain amount of resistance
training and intensity.
So like, honestly, just the moreshows I do, the more perspective
I gain.
And I've got this innate senseof how my body is feeling and
performing at a given set ofvariables.
And that is super helpfulbecause then I'm kind of leaning
into that intuition that hascome from just years of doing
(13:52):
this.
As far as like just hard datapoints like I track you know,
body composition, body fat,attract my strength and lifting
metrics so I can ensure that I'mnot losing lean tissue or
skeletal muscle tissue.
I track, you know, you know,body composition via DEXA,
calipers, in body test.
Obviously, I track my weightand, you know, my macronutrients
and total calories.
(14:13):
So those are all good numbersand variables to track but
honestly, just the theperspective gained over years of
doing it is probably the mostvaluable asset for sure.
Lorenz (14:22):
I don't want to pin, you know, keto bodybuilders against,
you know, regular bodybuilders.
I don't know if I could callthem regular bodybuilders.
But do you think that theketogenic diet is You know, I,
I, I want to say superior optionfor bodybuilders, especially.
And if you do, why do you thinkthat would be,
Robert (14:40):
Well, I've done them both.
Like, I've done, you know, theketogenic approach, and then
prior to going keto, I've didit, I did it, you know,
traditionally with a high carb,high protein, low fat approach.
And, you know, for me, I'vedefinitely gotten leaner with a
ketogenic approach.
I've felt better.
My hormones have been morestable.
My relationship with food hasimproved.
My performance and ability tohave energy and honestly, just
(15:02):
mental cognition and zeal forlife has all improved in the
depths of a prep following aketogenic approach versus a
traditional diet.
So yeah, I may be a little bitbiased, but I would definitely
stack the ketogenic bodybuildingapproach over the others for
sure.
Lorenz (15:17):
How is the ketogenic diet stacking against other
types of diets when in terms ofjust going into a prep and then
going to bodybuilding, like howdoes it stack against other
types of diets?
What, what are the other dietsout there, by the way, is this
just the bro diet or is just a,
Robert (15:32):
Yeah, there's, I mean, several variations you know, bro
diet you know, eating six orseven meals a day flexible
macros, really popular.
So basically just this massiveemphasis towards calories and
you know, tracking that, but itcoming from a variety of
sources.
Not really as much attentiontowards quality of the
ingredients.
So lots of different approachesthere.
As far as main differences,especially with my protocol with
(15:54):
the ketogenic approach, like mydietary fat stays relatively
high throughout the entirety ofmy prep, even when I'm at that
low calorie intake.
My calories are lower, I'm stillhungry, but since I am fat
adapted and all my energy iscoming from fat, both stored and
dietary, by my fat, my dietaryfats staying relatively high as
percentage of total calories,you know, I've got a pretty good
(16:16):
degree of of energy coming in atall times to be able to function
at a higher rate.
Whereas, if you're doingtraditional diets, there's times
where your carbs are very low.
There's times where your fat ispretty much always low.
And then there's times whereyour protein, Protein typically
stays high, but protein is not agreat substrate for energy.
So in traditional, perhaps whenyou're, you know, taking in 300
(16:37):
grams of protein, but you're lowcarb and low fat, like you're
not really feeling optimal.
And I don't have to with aketogenic approach.
Lorenz (16:46):
You know, I I imagine how a lot goes into a
competition, obviously you wantto be maintaining muscle, like
you said, while you lose fat atthe same time.
What for you, what, what is themost important aspect of
bodybuilding that, you know,going keto just makes things a
lot easier.
You know, we talked about, youknow, just having that, you
know, feeling good, you know,is, is having that energy,
(17:11):
right?
What, what is it about theketogenic diet that makes, not
easy, but easier, you could say,mentally or physically?
Yeah.
Robert (17:19):
I think from a physical standpoint, like ketones are
anti inflammatory having ahigher fat diet, ketogenic
approach typically leads to lessinflammation so I'm able to
train more frequently and as anatural bodybuilder.
You know, being able to trainmore frequently and recover more
efficiently is huge.
So the recovery benefits arehard to go unnoticed.
(17:41):
And then honestly, just from amental cognition standpoint,
like because ketones can crossthe blood brain barrier and as
ketones get higher when you'redeeper into a cut, you know,
like you're not having thismassive downtrend in cognitive
function.
I'm able to You know, maintainmental acuity and clarity at a
high level throughout my entireprep, whereas in the past, I
would just be feeling like azombie, like not able to carry
(18:03):
on a conversation.
And that's not really the caseat all.
When you take a ketogenic.
Lorenz (18:06):
Yeah.
You talked about training more.
How much more are we talkingabout, you know, comparing to,
you know, when, when you werenot on the ketogenic diet and
when you did the ketogenic diet,how much more training are we
talking about?
Robert (18:21):
My training has honestly been the same, but I recover
better from my training now andI'm typically doing like a full
body routine currently.
So I'm training the same musclegroup every single day I train,
which is, you know, 56 days aweek.
Eso much more training frequencyfor a given body part.
And I just have much shortertime to recovery.
So that's been super beneficial.
(18:42):
I could train with morefrequency and with more
intensity when I do train.
So that, that's boated well forme and just adding more tissue
over the years.
Lorenz (18:52):
And I've seen you train bodybuilding athletes and normal
people.
I, I seen you train normalpeople in general, you know,
looking their best shapes oftheir lives at any age, you, you
we talked about, you know, 50year old, six year olds and you
had our good friend coachBronson.
I think you coached him for theseven month cut as an example.
(19:14):
So you, you I want to ask youabout his.
Your approach to his cut you hadhim at you posted this on
Instagram and you had him tostart at 2, 500 calories
initially doing a high fat dietat 80%.
And then over the seven monthperiod, you gradually reduce his
intake to 1, 700 and increasingprotein to 190 grams at his
(19:39):
height and 60 percent fat.
And then he, he got shredded andthe best he ever felt.
But obviously, so you had abaseline, I believe you call it
caloric maintenance at 2, 500and gradually over the period of
time tapering his calories down.
What's the reason behindreducing caloric intake slowly?
(20:00):
Why shouldn't people just droptheir calories down to 1, 700 as
an example?
Robert (20:07):
Yeah.
Cause if you, if you start, youknow, with an automatic drop of
500, a thousand calories, youwill definitely lose some
weight.
But then you're going to plateaubecause your body's just going
to reset at that lower metabolicset point.
And then when you keep doing it,there's not really any, like
you're going to run out ofcaloric runway.
There's not really a room totaper it further.
If you're having these massiveaggressive calorie drops,
(20:29):
whereas if you drop them veryslowly and then you can kind of
try and stay ahead of yourmetabolic adaptations, then
you're going to be able to buildup momentum and keep seeing
progress as opposed to hittingthose plateaus.
Plus you don't want to leaveany, caloric runway on the
table, so to speak.
So like if you're able to see aresponse by dropping 50
calories, then that's much saferthan trying to drop by 500
(20:53):
calories.
Like you don't want to take anymore than you need to try and
treat it like a minimum viabledose is key.
And if you're making these verysmall incremental adjustments
week after week after week, youcan make it more sustainable.
which is obviously beneficialfrom a psychological standpoint.
But then you're also able tobuild up the momentum and feel
confident you're not leaving anycalories on the table because
you are able to implement thisminimum of effective dose.
Lorenz (21:16):
Yeah.
And is it because we are alldifferent?
We respond to food differently.
Now I imagine like somebody whois obese, let's say eating 3,
000, 4, 000, even 5, 000calories, they have, they
probably have a fast metabolismbecause they have to metabolize
that amount.
(21:37):
Right.
Robert (21:38):
Yeah.
I mean, the metabolism isincredibly adaptable.
I mean, like if you start eatingmore food, like your metabolism
up regulates, if you starteating less food, your
metabolism down regulates.
People that are incrediblyobese, they're often able to,
you know, maintain a highercaloric threshold than people
that are chronically undereating for sure because like
their body's trying to, youknow, maintain that higher
(21:58):
degree of body fat that it'scarrying around at all times.
But I would still take a prettygradual approach even to someone
that is consuming a massivesurplus like that just simply.
Cause we don't know where their,their personal metabolic tipping
point is.
And you can't really figure thatout within the degree of
accuracy until you startchipping away gradually.
Lorenz (22:20):
is the problem with most.
You know, the in and out, theeat less and exercise more.
When we were talking about, whenwe were talking about people who
are incredibly obese, right.
When you talk about people whoyou know, go to their doctor and
their doctor says, Hey, you gotto eat less, exercise more.
And they figure out like from 5,000, they have to cut their
(22:42):
calories to 2, 000.
Right.
And, you know, obviously if youcut your calories down to, down
to half, Right.
You're going to be you know, sodepleted, right?
How do you determine the optimalbalance between, between that?
So is that part of why we haveto do it gradually?
Robert (23:05):
Yeah.
Because when you're doing itgradually, like you're able to
really fine tune.
Various different tipping pointsin your body, like you're able
to figure out what your uniqueprotein threshold is.
You can figure out whatmacronutrient distribution your
body responds best to.
You can measure your ketones andglucose, try to see when, where
the trends are there.
You can kind of be conscious ofyour sleep and how that is being
(23:27):
affected as things change.
But if you drastically cut yourcalories by a thousand, there's
a massive window there and youhave no idea at what point
things would have startedpotentially changing because you
just So I'm typically adjustingthings in, you know, 25, 50, 70
cal70 calorie increments overthe course of a week, and I'm
(23:47):
very, very gradual with it.
I'm adjusting things by 5 gramincrements, 5 grams protein, 5
grams fat, very, very gradual,which makes it very sustainable.
Like if you're, you know,chipping away That few of
calories.
I mean, you may be just simplychanging your diet by reducing
your intake by one whole egg aweek.
Whereas if you go the thousandcalorie route, you're removing
(24:09):
one or two meals a week, whichis just.
It's much harder to wrap yourhead around.
Lorenz (24:15):
And you said that you don't want to be cutting.
A lot of calories and you getthe same result, right?
And reaching that plateaubecause by then you will have to
cut more calories.
Robert (24:29):
Yeah.
And you, I mean, people do that,like you're going to run out of
calories eventually, like if youstart getting like, you can only
cut so far before you've got toreverse that
Lorenz (24:37):
yeah.
And that's probably why, youknow, the calories in that model
is getting a lot little crapbecause of that, you know, And
that's something that I'venever, I haven't seen a lot of
people talk about, about, youknow, gradually tapering down
their calories when in terms ofjust losing weight.
(25:00):
And I want to go back to peoplewho are, you know, training for
a bodybuilding club.
How do you ensure that clientsare able to maintain strength
though when I know we talk aboutprioritizing dietary fat during
a cut.
You had, you know, Brunson as anexample, you know, do the same
(25:20):
type of exercises withoutwithout lowering the load.
Like how, how do you make surethat their muscle mass or they
maintain strength in, in theprocess?
Robert (25:32):
when you're in a cut, the main goal is not to build
more muscle, it's just tomaintain what you've got so.
You know, continuing to lifthard and heavy when you are
dropping your calories is thebest way that you can preserve
lean tissue.
It's going to be harder to lifthard as the calories are
decreasing because your energyis, you know, decreasing, but if
(25:53):
you're able to maintain thatdegree of intensity, then you're
gonna be able to preserve thatlean tissue much better because.
If you start dropping into adeficit and you start reducing
your training load, your body isgoing to become more susceptible
to tapping into that stored leantissue as a way to make up that
caloric void.
But if you continue to demandthat tissue be used, Then it's
(26:15):
gonna be, you know, it's gonnafight to preserve that.
So, so really trying to maintaintraining load and intensity and
volume is key.
As calories drop, that's likethe single best thing you can do
to preserve muscle mass in thecontext of a caloric deficit.
So it, it does get harder to doso, but really just, you know,
knowing what your proxies of, ofyour lifting metrics are,
tracking that, at least on yourprimary compound movement, so
(26:37):
you can have a baseline there,and then trying to maintain that
throughout the caloric deficitis key.
Lorenz (26:44):
And you've always talked about protein and you've always
talked about how, you know,overdoing protein isn't really
the way to go, right?
How do you figure out how much,what's the threshold for, for
each individual's proteinintake?
Robert (27:01):
Yeah, I mean protein is super important, like you gotta
have ample protein, but thenotion that it's, you know, you
can consume it in excess is notreally,
Lorenz (27:10):
Yeah.
Robert (27:10):
because like there's a threshold to everything.
So especially if you're tryingto optimize from a fat
metabolism standpoint, like ifyou're consuming excessive
protein relative to dietary fat,then it's going to be more prone
to, you know, go through thegluconeogenic pathways and
you're going to be using thatglucose inefficiently as a
source of energy from theprotein that's derived from,
(27:32):
which is not efficient processfor energy.
So if you've got ample protein,ample amino acids to preserve
tissue to build tissue, ifyou're in a building phase than
any excess you know, calorieswould be better off partition
towards dietary fat rather thanadditional protein.
So knowing where that thresholdis for each individual and
getting that dialed in is key.
(27:52):
I mean, you can tolerate, ifyou've got more muscle, you can
tolerate more protein as well.
I mean, like I consume quite abit of protein, like I'm taking
in 250 grams of protein a dayright now you know, which is a
lot, but I'm still able toproduce ketones, And still
totally fat adapted and, and,optimizing fat metabolism.
But just figuring out where thatunique threshold is a scheme.
Lorenz (28:13):
And because you can't increase a protein intake
without sacrificing some fat,right?
Robert (28:20):
Yeah, I mean like the, there is a higher thermic effect
of food with protein, but Iwouldn't really ever suggest
people try and, you know, usethat as the main lever to
manipulate when trying to dietdown.
So yeah, I mean, if you've onlygot so many calories to work
with, that it's either gonna bepartitioned towards, you know,
fats, proteins, andcarbohydrates.
So ideally the carbohydrate is,is not making up a majority of
(28:41):
that intake and then from there,it's pretty much just figuring
out, you What the ratio anddistribution needs to be between
the fats and the proteins,
Lorenz (28:49):
For somebody who wants to start maybe not a, you know,
not go into bodybuilding, but bein the best shape of their life.
Like, let's say somebody like mewho wants to take it from, from
here to the next level.
Maybe somebody who has 20percent body fat into 50 percent
body fat.
I know we talked about, hey, yougotta, You know, scalp in the
(29:10):
gym, you got to be in the gym,you know, maybe five to six
times a week.
But what does that really mean?
Mentally, like, how do you dialin, you know, maybe think about
some of your clients, what dothey need to do to finally, Hey,
I'm going to dial into my, myfat and protein intake.
(29:32):
How, how do I buy in and what,what are sort of the things that
you talk to your clients aboutthat they have to really
prioritize in terms of just, youknow, going into a cut,
especially now where we're goinginto, um, into the spring, into
the summer, like, a lot ofpeople are exercising, wanting
to lose weight.
What's that?
Some, what's something that youcan prioritize in terms of just
(29:55):
losing fat?
Mm-Hmm.
Robert (29:56):
Commit to the process and do not deviate, you know,
I've got, I've worked with like600 plus clients at this point,
and the ones that commit to theprocess fully and completely,
they weigh out their food, theyprep their meals, they don't
miss their training sessions,they don't deviate.
They see amazing results.
The ones that are always fudgingthe numbers, having the cheap
(30:19):
meals, skipping the trainingsessions, they're always going
to be stuck in purgatory becausethey're never going to see the
results they want.
They're always kind of likegoing back and forth with
things.
It takes time to truly changeyour composition.
And to get really and trulydialed in and leaned out to that
degree.
And anybody can do it, but youhave to a hundred percent commit
(30:41):
to the process.
You can't, you know, half ass itand expect amazing results.
So like when I'm in a prep, Iflip that switch.
And I'm all business.
I've got all my food prepped andready to go.
I've got everything weighed out.
I've got my structure set up, myschedule set up.
Everything's dialed in andoptimized.
Everything is in place.
And I do not deviate from it atall.
(31:01):
And that is how you see theresults.
Super simple.
Not easy.
Super simple.
Lorenz (31:08):
Yeah.
how how do you retract thosedemons though?
you know, demons talking aboutjust deviations,
Robert (31:15):
yeah, I mean, I don't know, I mean, perspective is a
lot of it.
Like the more you do it, theeasier it gets because you have
that perspective.
But honestly, just like how baddo you want it?
Like everybody's got, you know,conflictions in life.
Everybody's got distractions.
Everybody's got.
Things that are pulling at them.
But if you truly want it and youwant to take it to the next
level, then anything that doesnot contribute to you getting to
(31:35):
the next level is noise in yourlife and should be removed from
the equation entirely.
Lorenz (31:42):
How do you.
Like, obviously a client maycome to you and I love what
you're saying, your client comesto you and he believes that he
wants to, you know, shred, hewants to be shredded.
He wants to have six pack abs bythe end of this, maybe seven,
seven months Seven monthjourney.
(32:03):
How do you know that, thatthey're actually committed to
the process?
Or how do you get them to commitor is that part of the, or do
you, do they have to come to youcommitted already?
Robert (32:17):
I mean, I can usually tell when I'm working with
somebody, I can usually tell thefirst few weeks if they've
bought in or not, like, youknow, if they're active on my
communication with them, ifthey're you know, sending me
updates proactively.
Then I know that they wouldn'tlike, I've got some clients that
I'm always having to reach outto them.
Like, Hey, what's your way in?
Hey, did you work out this week?
(32:37):
Hey, did you hit your macros?
They're just like notresponsive.
You know, like if that's thecase, then I already know
everything I need to know.
Like they're not going to beputting in the
Lorenz (32:45):
right, right.
right.
Ah, I imagined that.
I imagined that, you know,somebody not being responsive.
That means that says a lot,actually.
Without saying anything Hey man,this new thing you got going on,
man, you got this contest prepcourse.
You talked about this contentprep course and I heard it's the
most comprehensive course on theinternet right now.
(33:09):
Talk about it, man.
Robert (33:11):
Yeah.
So it hadn't officiallylaunched.
I don't know when this podcastis going to go live.
The course will probablyofficially launch mid May is the
goal, but yeah, it is basicallyhands down the most
comprehensive course.
On natural bodybuilding from aketogenic standpoint that you
will find online period fullstop.
No questions asked.
I mean, it's basicallyEverything that you need to know
(33:31):
about dialing things in from anatural bodybuilding standpoint
With a ketogenic diet, like itgoes into the training, the
nutrition, the macros, thecalculations, the meal prep the
posing, the, the, theeverything, like if you wanted
to dial things in and not haveto have a coach, then you could
just simply get this course ofeverything at your fingertips to
bring the best package andconditioning you could to the
(33:53):
stage, you know, without,without question.
Lorenz (33:56):
I love it, man.
Cause but this way, you know,you, you get to help a lot more
people, right?
Obviously you're just oneperson.
Robert (34:03):
That's the goal.
Lorenz (34:04):
everybody, Yeah, And I'm excited for it, man.
It's like you're talking to me.
It's like you're talking to mehere.
This, this, I get selfish now.
This interview is for me.
Haha.
Robert (34:18):
it, man.
There's going to be a communityfeature there so everybody can
kind of like collaborate withone another and have that
accountability kind of bakedinto it.
It's got like its own specialtyAI software that is all built
around, you know, my protocoland the ketogenic diet and
everything.
So it's, it's verycomprehensive.
I think it's just gonna be anamazing resource for everybody
that wants to take things to thenext level.
(34:38):
My
Lorenz (34:39):
man.
I appreciate that.
I appreciate what you're doing,man.
Appreciate you coming on hereand just dropping some nuggets
of information, man.
You know, when it comes to ketobodybuilding, there's no other
person out there who talks, whotalks the talk and walks the
walk at the same time, man.
And not nothing better than tohave Robert Sykes here on our
(35:00):
podcast.
So thank you, Robert, for.
Coming on, man, sharing yourstory, man.
You're, you're amazing.
Keep doing what you're doing.
Robert (35:07):
pleasure, man.
I really appreciate theopportunity.
I'm super passionate about thislifestyle, so I appreciate you
letting me just get the wordout.
So, yeah, man.
Thank you.
Lorenz (35:15):
Thanks brother.
Appreciate you, man.
All right.
Bye bye.
Robert (35:18):
Take care.
So I decided this guys today, we have a special guest
joining us, Robert Sykes, AKAKeto Savage, the CEO and founder
of Keto Savage, a health andfitness company and CEO and
founder of Keto brick, aketogenic meal replacement bar.
He also wrote a bodybuilding.
Robert Sykes, welcome back tothe ketones, the coffee podcast,
(00:21):
man.
Robert (00:22):
Hey man, I appreciate you having me.
I'm excited to be here chattingwith you.
It's an honor yet again.
Lorenz (00:27):
Awesome, man.
So I had you first back hereApril, 2022 episode 72,
actually.
Fast forward today, two yearsafter episode one 72, if you can
believe it, how have you been,man?
Robert (00:41):
It's been, it's been a crazy few years, man, as, as we
can all attest.
I mean, 2020 was wild.
2022, 2024.
It's crazy.
It's now 2024, but yeah, thispast year has been a, a doozy
for me with all the competitionsand the having a kiddo and then
all the business endeavors.
So we've been going a millionmiles an hour, but we're just,
It's happy to keep trucking,man.
(01:02):
We got a lot going on right now,but it's all exciting stuff.
Lorenz (01:05):
a million miles an hour is right, man.
I followed your socials, man.
And, you know, COVID didn'treally slow you down, brother.
So, I, I was following you onsocials, man.
You first talk at KetoCon when Ifirst had you on.
And since then, you've been amonster on stage, brother.
You've grown your business.
Like you talked about inOctober, you won WNBF natural
(01:25):
pro bodybuilder.
Congratulations.
And you talked about completeabsence of carbohydrates, bro.
How does that feel, man?
Robert (01:34):
It's good, man.
I mean, I've been doing keto nowfor eight or nine years, and I
competed in 2017 with theketogenic approach.
I got my pro card in a differentfederation then, and then I died
it down in 2020 to compete, butthen COVID canceled that like a
week before the show.
So 2020 yeah.
Three was, was time to just get,get to work and you know, put,
(01:54):
put what I had learned to thetable from a ketogenic
standpoint and did fivecompetitions over the course of
a few months.
I think my first one was end ofSeptember.
The last one was mid November.
So very busy competition seasonlast year and we were traveling
nonstop, driving to most ofthese shows from one end of the
coast to the next you know, witha one and a half year old
(02:15):
driving with us, so it was totalchaos, but a great experience
for sure and it was awesome todo it all with the ketogenic
approach, you know.
Lorenz (02:23):
Yeah, man.
And also love when you saidthat, you know, and I quote, I
truly hope that this winillustrates what it is possible
with a well formulated ketogenicdiet in the world of And that is
the mic drop right there, man.
You know, how in the world areyou able to do all this?
Man, you talked about havingyour businesses, being a father,
(02:45):
man, also coaching clients onthe side while doing
competitions, man, like how, howdo you put it in, in all, how do
you fit it in your schedule nowbeing here, you know, talking
about you, you have your ownpodcast, like how, how, how are
you able to fit all of that inyour schedule, man?
Robert (03:01):
man?
sometimes I don't know.
I feel like I'm spread prettythin right now, to be honest.
Like, I'm trying to prioritizethings, and I don't sleep very
much.
I can certainly say that Isacrifice sleep, which is not
ideal by any means, but that'sjust kind of what tends to get
pushed on the back burner, issleep.
But yeah, man, I feel likethere's just, we all have the
same amount of time in a day.
You got to prioritize the thingsthat you want to focus on.
(03:22):
I don't do many things thatwaste time.
I don't spend hours scrolling onInstagram.
I don't watch Netflix.
I don't have a TV.
So I don't do any time wastingthings by any means.
Lorenz (03:35):
Maybe I should have that.
Tutorial from you for not notgoing on social media too much
and scrolling.
Right?
You you know, I'm very gratefulfor what you're doing, man.
You're putting everybody onnotice.
Like, I subscribed on youremails.
And if I if I were you, I wouldtoo.
No junk, as promised, right?
Keto bodybuilding.
com.
(03:55):
And there was a quote there,man, that resonated with me,
that reads and I won't read thewhole quote.
It says, It goes, regret is farworse feeling than a temporary
low.
Like, a regret is far worse thanfeeling temporary low.
I like that, man.
And that might be the quote forme.
I just want to pick your braintoday on what that means to you,
(04:17):
man.
Like, what does that really meanto you?
Like, going back to, you know,from where you started what does
that mean?
Robert (04:25):
Yeah, I mean, regret, like I used to be filled with
regret.
I mean, there was times where Iwas working a job I didn't like.
I knew I was doing things that Iwasn't passionate about and I
didn't feel like I was living tomy full potential.
And now there's a lot of thingsthat I have left to do.
I don't feel like my life isdone by any means.
But I feel very confident thatI'm spending my time doing the
(04:48):
things that I am meant to bedoing.
I feel like I'm making apositive impact in this world.
And for that reason, if Iliterally was not able to wake
up tomorrow, if I didn't wake uptomorrow, I can confidently say
that I was able to live and diewithout regret and things left
undone.
Yes, there's things I still wantto do, but I'm doing everything
in my power to do those things.
I'm not leaving Anything in thetank, so to speak.
(05:11):
And I think with that comesperiods of time where you're
just like drained and depletedand exhausted and fatigued.
But I'm not feeling regret, youknow, so there's definitely low
moments, but I'd rather havethose low moments than a sense
of regret or feeling ofinadequacy.
So that's what it means for me.
Lorenz (05:29):
Yeah, man, that's strong when you're like, you're having
that bad day.
That's strong.
That quote, I'll keep that inmind.
Right somewhere, you know, it'sjust very powerful when you
think about it.
You know, down the line when,when it's all said and done,
man, you don't want to have afull of regrets.
Awesome, man.
You know, when I first had youon the show, you talked about
your story and how.
(05:50):
You broke free from disorderedeating, you developed from
bodybuilding, and how, you know,the ketogenic diet not only
improved your relationship withfood, but also allowed you to
surpass even your current levelof health and success.
I know we talked about howathletes in the bodybuilding
community may struggle with, youknow, disordered eating.
And I want to understand that,like, Can you take us through
(06:14):
what goes into a, you know,maybe a routine of a bodybuilder
at the start of the prep andthen the weeks after the
competition is done, what goesinto that that we don't
understand as regular peoplethat doesn't understand that
world?
Robert (06:28):
Yeah, I mean, well, traditionally, bodybuilders,
regardless of the diet you'refollowing, you're typically
tracking everything with a highdegree of accuracy, like you're
weighing out your food, you'remeasuring your macros, you're
Fats, proteins, carbohydratesconsumed, your calories
consumed, and you know, you'readjusting your calorie and
you're training appropriately soit's just a very measured,
regimented approach and you dothat for, you know, many, many
(06:52):
weeks, many, many months, likemy last prep was 33 weeks as an
example, and you get reallylean, you get really depleted,
really dialed in your hormonesare in a state of flux youryour
metabolism is downregulated,your leptin and ghrelin hormones
that regulate hunger and satietyare totally out of whack And
then when that show is over, andthere's nothing left on the
calendar to work towards, it'svery easy for many people to
(07:15):
just throw all caution to thewind and eat everything in sight
because they've felt depletedand restricted for so long.
And with that, there's just avery negative downward spiral
that oftentimes comes as thatbeing the catalyst.
And I mean, for me, my firstshow, I gained, you know, 20
pounds literally in 24 hours.
And I just felt very frustratedwith myself.
(07:39):
I didn't have any selfdiscipline.
I feel like I just thrown awayall the hard work that I'd
worked, you know, so hard for toget to that level of
conditioning and just thrown itaway in an instant.
And a lot of people that arefollowing more of a traditional
diet, you know, they'll, Eatreally clean, like a chicken,
broccoli, rice kind of approach.
And then when that show wasover, they just eat a whole
bunch of junk food, lots of, youknow, cakes, pizzas, and pies
(08:01):
and things of that nature,cookies.
And, you know, that's.
Just kind of leaning into thatdisordered eating tendency for
me with this last prep,especially I never changed the
style of foods I was eating itwas all the same types of foods
all the good quality foods.
I never like, you knowSacrificed a type of food that I
enjoyed eating.
I just simply Change the amountthat I was eating.
(08:23):
And when you're following a wellformulated ketogenic diet,
you're not eating really anyprocessed junk food anyways.
So after the show was over, Ijust simply scaled that intake
back up slowly.
But again, all coming from thesame foods that I enjoy eating
anyway.
So it was much easier to bridgethat gap and not kind of go into
a tailspin after the show wasover.
Lorenz (08:42):
Yeah, you can imagine like if you, if you go after a
show, after a competition, itwould go, you know, eat whatever
you wanted just because you'vebeen preparing for this for 33
weeks and you've, you've, youtalked about being depleted.
You know, and packing a lot ofweight, you know, weeks after
(09:04):
competition, then there's a lotof you know, struggle that
happens internally when you,when you talked about, you
worked hard, work your ass offjust to get into a level of
physique and then, you know, youlet yourself go you know, just
because the competition is over.
Right.
Do you think.
The ketogenic diet allows you tobe more, I wouldn't say
(09:28):
disciplined, but more dialed inwith lifestyle, you think?
Robert (09:34):
Evan Brand Yeah, well, the ketogenic diet, you know, if
implemented properly, puts apretty high emphasis of
importance on, you know,sourcing your food from quality,
quality ingredients from qualityanimal sources, knowing your
local farmer and rancher,ideally like a lot of that is
placed in high regard on a wellformulated ketogenic diet.
And if you're following thatkind of as the baseline, then
(09:56):
it's, It's harder to deviatefrom that willingly because you
understand and appreciate howquality food matters.
So if you don't really deviatethat from, from that much on the
norm, then after the show isover, then you don't really have
that broadest spectrum to tryand stray away from.
So it's kind of healthy andhelpful in that regard.
Now you will gain some body fatfor sure.
(10:17):
Like right now, I'm, I'm youknow, several pounds up from
what I was at the leanest stageweight, and that's okay.
That's what you want.
Like, you can't maintain thatshow day level of conditioning
indefinitely.
And you've got to embrace thatbody fat that comes at a healthy
rate and be okay with that, too.
And that's not easy either.
I mean, it's hard to seeyourself super dialed in and
conditioned.
And then like embrace body fatgain and not having that level
(10:40):
of definition, but, but you haveto have that yin to the yang, so
to speak.
Lorenz (10:46):
So would you say that on the ketogenic diet, when you're
doing prep for a competition,you weren't necessarily dieting?
You're not changing your Dietdrastically from like eating a
high carb meal to a, you know,chicken breast and broccoli type
of meal just to be ready for acompetition.
But on a ketogenic diet, you're,you're basically just, you know,
(11:10):
adjusting your fat intake andyour protein intake, but you're
essentially just eating the samemeals.
Does that
Robert (11:17):
Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty much doing the exact same thing
whether I'm in a prep or not,it's just the amounts that I'm
eating that changes and thelevel of accuracy and tracking.
Yeah, because when I'm in aprep, I'm tracking everything,
I'm weighing everything to thegram, everything is very dialed
in, but it's all the same foodsthat I eat now in the building
phase.
Yeah.
Thanks.
Lorenz (11:35):
How important is it?
Do you think that being dialedin and tracking everything you
even track hormone production?
Right?
I believe?
Robert (11:45):
I track, I mean, I get my blood work done, so I can see
where my hormones are at, but Itrack, you know, electrolyte
consumption, so how much saltI'm adding to my foods, like I
track everything.
Lorenz (11:54):
Is that something that regular bodybuilders I mean, you
know, non keto bodybuilders do?
Is that something that theytrack normally or not?
Robert (12:05):
They'll normally always, you know, weigh their foods and
get that, you know, macrostracked.
Not everybody weighs their saltand electrolytes not everybody
gets blood work drawn, but forme, the more, the more data you
have, the better.
You know, you can structure theplan and just make sure things
are dialed in.
I mean, what, what can bemeasured can be managed.
So for me, I like having all thedata that I possibly can.
Lorenz (12:26):
What do you think is the most important data that you've
added since keto that helpedyou, you know, stay consistent
or maintain the level ofphysique that you have, plus you
know, feeling good at the sametime.
Cause I, I, I, I'm not abodybuilder by any means, right.
(12:49):
But I, I do know when you dolower your calorie intake, that
it, it can get depleted, you canget depleted.
Is there a data that you'vestarted tracking that helped
your journey?
If you would rank it number onein your list, what would that
be?
Robert (13:09):
That's a good question.
I don't think there's like aobjective data point that I
think is, you know, has made aprofound difference for me.
So it's more so just theperspective overall, like I've
done.
So many competition preps nowthat I know what to expect and
how my body is going to respondat a given caloric intake at a
different macronutrientdistribution and ratio with a
(13:31):
certain amount of cardio, with acertain amount of resistance
training and intensity.
So like, honestly, just the moreshows I do, the more perspective
I gain.
And I've got this innate senseof how my body is feeling and
performing at a given set ofvariables.
And that is super helpfulbecause then I'm kind of leaning
into that intuition that hascome from just years of doing
(13:52):
this.
As far as like just hard datapoints like I track you know,
body composition, body fat,attract my strength and lifting
metrics so I can ensure that I'mnot losing lean tissue or
skeletal muscle tissue.
I track, you know, you know,body composition via DEXA,
calipers, in body test.
Obviously, I track my weightand, you know, my macronutrients
and total calories.
(14:13):
So those are all good numbersand variables to track but
honestly, just the theperspective gained over years of
doing it is probably the mostvaluable asset for sure.
Lorenz (14:22):
I don't want to pin, you know, keto bodybuilders against,
you know, regular bodybuilders.
I don't know if I could callthem regular bodybuilders.
But do you think that theketogenic diet is You know, I,
I, I want to say superior optionfor bodybuilders, especially.
And if you do, why do you thinkthat would be,
Robert (14:40):
Well, I've done them both.
Like, I've done, you know, theketogenic approach, and then
prior to going keto, I've didit, I did it, you know,
traditionally with a high carb,high protein, low fat approach.
And, you know, for me, I'vedefinitely gotten leaner with a
ketogenic approach.
I've felt better.
My hormones have been morestable.
My relationship with food hasimproved.
My performance and ability tohave energy and honestly, just
(15:02):
mental cognition and zeal forlife has all improved in the
depths of a prep following aketogenic approach versus a
traditional diet.
So yeah, I may be a little bitbiased, but I would definitely
stack the ketogenic bodybuildingapproach over the others for
sure.
Lorenz (15:17):
How is the ketogenic diet stacking against other
types of diets when in terms ofjust going into a prep and then
going to bodybuilding, like howdoes it stack against other
types of diets?
What, what are the other dietsout there, by the way, is this
just the bro diet or is just a,
Robert (15:32):
Yeah, there's, I mean, several variations you know, bro
diet you know, eating six orseven meals a day flexible
macros, really popular.
So basically just this massiveemphasis towards calories and
you know, tracking that, but itcoming from a variety of
sources.
Not really as much attentiontowards quality of the
ingredients.
So lots of different approachesthere.
As far as main differences,especially with my protocol with
(15:54):
the ketogenic approach, like mydietary fat stays relatively
high throughout the entirety ofmy prep, even when I'm at that
low calorie intake.
My calories are lower, I'm stillhungry, but since I am fat
adapted and all my energy iscoming from fat, both stored and
dietary, by my fat, my dietaryfats staying relatively high as
percentage of total calories,you know, I've got a pretty good
(16:16):
degree of of energy coming in atall times to be able to function
at a higher rate.
Whereas, if you're doingtraditional diets, there's times
where your carbs are very low.
There's times where your fat ispretty much always low.
And then there's times whereyour protein, Protein typically
stays high, but protein is not agreat substrate for energy.
So in traditional, perhaps whenyou're, you know, taking in 300
(16:37):
grams of protein, but you're lowcarb and low fat, like you're
not really feeling optimal.
And I don't have to with aketogenic approach.
Lorenz (16:46):
You know, I I imagine how a lot goes into a
competition, obviously you wantto be maintaining muscle, like
you said, while you lose fat atthe same time.
What for you, what, what is themost important aspect of
bodybuilding that, you know,going keto just makes things a
lot easier.
You know, we talked about, youknow, just having that, you
know, feeling good, you know,is, is having that energy,
(17:11):
right?
What, what is it about theketogenic diet that makes, not
easy, but easier, you could say,mentally or physically?
Yeah.
Robert (17:19):
I think from a physical standpoint, like ketones are
anti inflammatory having ahigher fat diet, ketogenic
approach typically leads to lessinflammation so I'm able to
train more frequently and as anatural bodybuilder.
You know, being able to trainmore frequently and recover more
efficiently is huge.
So the recovery benefits arehard to go unnoticed.
(17:41):
And then honestly, just from amental cognition standpoint,
like because ketones can crossthe blood brain barrier and as
ketones get higher when you'redeeper into a cut, you know,
like you're not having thismassive downtrend in cognitive
function.
I'm able to You know, maintainmental acuity and clarity at a
high level throughout my entireprep, whereas in the past, I
would just be feeling like azombie, like not able to carry
(18:03):
on a conversation.
And that's not really the caseat all.
When you take a ketogenic.
Lorenz (18:06):
Yeah.
You talked about training more.
How much more are we talkingabout, you know, comparing to,
you know, when, when you werenot on the ketogenic diet and
when you did the ketogenic diet,how much more training are we
talking about?
Robert (18:21):
My training has honestly been the same, but I recover
better from my training now andI'm typically doing like a full
body routine currently.
So I'm training the same musclegroup every single day I train,
which is, you know, 56 days aweek.
Eso much more training frequencyfor a given body part.
And I just have much shortertime to recovery.
So that's been super beneficial.
(18:42):
I could train with morefrequency and with more
intensity when I do train.
So that, that's boated well forme and just adding more tissue
over the years.
Lorenz (18:52):
And I've seen you train bodybuilding athletes and normal
people.
I, I seen you train normalpeople in general, you know,
looking their best shapes oftheir lives at any age, you, you
we talked about, you know, 50year old, six year olds and you
had our good friend coachBronson.
I think you coached him for theseven month cut as an example.
(19:14):
So you, you I want to ask youabout his.
Your approach to his cut you hadhim at you posted this on
Instagram and you had him tostart at 2, 500 calories
initially doing a high fat dietat 80%.
And then over the seven monthperiod, you gradually reduce his
intake to 1, 700 and increasingprotein to 190 grams at his
(19:39):
height and 60 percent fat.
And then he, he got shredded andthe best he ever felt.
But obviously, so you had abaseline, I believe you call it
caloric maintenance at 2, 500and gradually over the period of
time tapering his calories down.
What's the reason behindreducing caloric intake slowly?
(20:00):
Why shouldn't people just droptheir calories down to 1, 700 as
an example?
Robert (20:07):
Yeah.
Cause if you, if you start, youknow, with an automatic drop of
500, a thousand calories, youwill definitely lose some
weight.
But then you're going to plateaubecause your body's just going
to reset at that lower metabolicset point.
And then when you keep doing it,there's not really any, like
you're going to run out ofcaloric runway.
There's not really a room totaper it further.
If you're having these massiveaggressive calorie drops,
(20:29):
whereas if you drop them veryslowly and then you can kind of
try and stay ahead of yourmetabolic adaptations, then
you're going to be able to buildup momentum and keep seeing
progress as opposed to hittingthose plateaus.
Plus you don't want to leaveany, caloric runway on the
table, so to speak.
So like if you're able to see aresponse by dropping 50
calories, then that's much saferthan trying to drop by 500
(20:53):
calories.
Like you don't want to take anymore than you need to try and
treat it like a minimum viabledose is key.
And if you're making these verysmall incremental adjustments
week after week after week, youcan make it more sustainable.
which is obviously beneficialfrom a psychological standpoint.
But then you're also able tobuild up the momentum and feel
confident you're not leaving anycalories on the table because
you are able to implement thisminimum of effective dose.
Lorenz (21:16):
Yeah.
And is it because we are alldifferent?
We respond to food differently.
Now I imagine like somebody whois obese, let's say eating 3,
000, 4, 000, even 5, 000calories, they have, they
probably have a fast metabolismbecause they have to metabolize
that amount.
(21:37):
Right.
Robert (21:38):
Yeah.
I mean, the metabolism isincredibly adaptable.
I mean, like if you start eatingmore food, like your metabolism
up regulates, if you starteating less food, your
metabolism down regulates.
People that are incrediblyobese, they're often able to,
you know, maintain a highercaloric threshold than people
that are chronically undereating for sure because like
their body's trying to, youknow, maintain that higher
(21:58):
degree of body fat that it'scarrying around at all times.
But I would still take a prettygradual approach even to someone
that is consuming a massivesurplus like that just simply.
Cause we don't know where their,their personal metabolic tipping
point is.
And you can't really figure thatout within the degree of
accuracy until you startchipping away gradually.
Lorenz (22:20):
is the problem with most.
You know, the in and out, theeat less and exercise more.
When we were talking about, whenwe were talking about people who
are incredibly obese, right.
When you talk about people whoyou know, go to their doctor and
their doctor says, Hey, you gotto eat less, exercise more.
And they figure out like from 5,000, they have to cut their
(22:42):
calories to 2, 000.
Right.
And, you know, obviously if youcut your calories down to, down
to half, Right.
You're going to be you know, sodepleted, right?
How do you determine the optimalbalance between, between that?
So is that part of why we haveto do it gradually?
Robert (23:05):
Yeah.
Because when you're doing itgradually, like you're able to
really fine tune.
Various different tipping pointsin your body, like you're able
to figure out what your uniqueprotein threshold is.
You can figure out whatmacronutrient distribution your
body responds best to.
You can measure your ketones andglucose, try to see when, where
the trends are there.
You can kind of be conscious ofyour sleep and how that is being
(23:27):
affected as things change.
But if you drastically cut yourcalories by a thousand, there's
a massive window there and youhave no idea at what point
things would have startedpotentially changing because you
just So I'm typically adjustingthings in, you know, 25, 50, 70
cal70 calorie increments overthe course of a week, and I'm
(23:47):
very, very gradual with it.
I'm adjusting things by 5 gramincrements, 5 grams protein, 5
grams fat, very, very gradual,which makes it very sustainable.
Like if you're, you know,chipping away That few of
calories.
I mean, you may be just simplychanging your diet by reducing
your intake by one whole egg aweek.
Whereas if you go the thousandcalorie route, you're removing
(24:09):
one or two meals a week, whichis just.
It's much harder to wrap yourhead around.
Lorenz (24:15):
And you said that you don't want to be cutting.
A lot of calories and you getthe same result, right?
And reaching that plateaubecause by then you will have to
cut more calories.
Robert (24:29):
Yeah.
And you, I mean, people do that,like you're going to run out of
calories eventually, like if youstart getting like, you can only
cut so far before you've got toreverse that
Lorenz (24:37):
yeah.
And that's probably why, youknow, the calories in that model
is getting a lot little crapbecause of that, you know, And
that's something that I'venever, I haven't seen a lot of
people talk about, about, youknow, gradually tapering down
their calories when in terms ofjust losing weight.
(25:00):
And I want to go back to peoplewho are, you know, training for
a bodybuilding club.
How do you ensure that clientsare able to maintain strength
though when I know we talk aboutprioritizing dietary fat during
a cut.
You had, you know, Brunson as anexample, you know, do the same
(25:20):
type of exercises withoutwithout lowering the load.
Like how, how do you make surethat their muscle mass or they
maintain strength in, in theprocess?
Robert (25:32):
when you're in a cut, the main goal is not to build
more muscle, it's just tomaintain what you've got so.
You know, continuing to lifthard and heavy when you are
dropping your calories is thebest way that you can preserve
lean tissue.
It's going to be harder to lifthard as the calories are
decreasing because your energyis, you know, decreasing, but if
(25:53):
you're able to maintain thatdegree of intensity, then you're
gonna be able to preserve thatlean tissue much better because.
If you start dropping into adeficit and you start reducing
your training load, your body isgoing to become more susceptible
to tapping into that stored leantissue as a way to make up that
caloric void.
But if you continue to demandthat tissue be used, Then it's
(26:15):
gonna be, you know, it's gonnafight to preserve that.
So, so really trying to maintaintraining load and intensity and
volume is key.
As calories drop, that's likethe single best thing you can do
to preserve muscle mass in thecontext of a caloric deficit.
So it, it does get harder to doso, but really just, you know,
knowing what your proxies of, ofyour lifting metrics are,
tracking that, at least on yourprimary compound movement, so
(26:37):
you can have a baseline there,and then trying to maintain that
throughout the caloric deficitis key.
Lorenz (26:44):
And you've always talked about protein and you've always
talked about how, you know,overdoing protein isn't really
the way to go, right?
How do you figure out how much,what's the threshold for, for
each individual's proteinintake?
Robert (27:01):
Yeah, I mean protein is super important, like you gotta
have ample protein, but thenotion that it's, you know, you
can consume it in excess is notreally,
Lorenz (27:10):
Yeah.
Robert (27:10):
because like there's a threshold to everything.
So especially if you're tryingto optimize from a fat
metabolism standpoint, like ifyou're consuming excessive
protein relative to dietary fat,then it's going to be more prone
to, you know, go through thegluconeogenic pathways and
you're going to be using thatglucose inefficiently as a
source of energy from theprotein that's derived from,
(27:32):
which is not efficient processfor energy.
So if you've got ample protein,ample amino acids to preserve
tissue to build tissue, ifyou're in a building phase than
any excess you know, calorieswould be better off partition
towards dietary fat rather thanadditional protein.
So knowing where that thresholdis for each individual and
getting that dialed in is key.
(27:52):
I mean, you can tolerate, ifyou've got more muscle, you can
tolerate more protein as well.
I mean, like I consume quite abit of protein, like I'm taking
in 250 grams of protein a dayright now you know, which is a
lot, but I'm still able toproduce ketones, And still
totally fat adapted and, and,optimizing fat metabolism.
But just figuring out where thatunique threshold is a scheme.
Lorenz (28:13):
And because you can't increase a protein intake
without sacrificing some fat,right?
Robert (28:20):
Yeah, I mean like the, there is a higher thermic effect
of food with protein, but Iwouldn't really ever suggest
people try and, you know, usethat as the main lever to
manipulate when trying to dietdown.
So yeah, I mean, if you've onlygot so many calories to work
with, that it's either gonna bepartitioned towards, you know,
fats, proteins, andcarbohydrates.
So ideally the carbohydrate is,is not making up a majority of
(28:41):
that intake and then from there,it's pretty much just figuring
out, you What the ratio anddistribution needs to be between
the fats and the proteins,
Lorenz (28:49):
For somebody who wants to start maybe not a, you know,
not go into bodybuilding, but bein the best shape of their life.
Like, let's say somebody like mewho wants to take it from, from
here to the next level.
Maybe somebody who has 20percent body fat into 50 percent
body fat.
I know we talked about, hey, yougotta, You know, scalp in the
(29:10):
gym, you got to be in the gym,you know, maybe five to six
times a week.
But what does that really mean?
Mentally, like, how do you dialin, you know, maybe think about
some of your clients, what dothey need to do to finally, Hey,
I'm going to dial into my, myfat and protein intake.
(29:32):
How, how do I buy in and what,what are sort of the things that
you talk to your clients aboutthat they have to really
prioritize in terms of just, youknow, going into a cut,
especially now where we're goinginto, um, into the spring, into
the summer, like, a lot ofpeople are exercising, wanting
to lose weight.
What's that?
Some, what's something that youcan prioritize in terms of just
(29:55):
losing fat?
Mm-Hmm.
Robert (29:56):
Commit to the process and do not deviate, you know,
I've got, I've worked with like600 plus clients at this point,
and the ones that commit to theprocess fully and completely,
they weigh out their food, theyprep their meals, they don't
miss their training sessions,they don't deviate.
They see amazing results.
The ones that are always fudgingthe numbers, having the cheap
(30:19):
meals, skipping the trainingsessions, they're always going
to be stuck in purgatory becausethey're never going to see the
results they want.
They're always kind of likegoing back and forth with
things.
It takes time to truly changeyour composition.
And to get really and trulydialed in and leaned out to that
degree.
And anybody can do it, but youhave to a hundred percent commit
(30:41):
to the process.
You can't, you know, half ass itand expect amazing results.
So like when I'm in a prep, Iflip that switch.
And I'm all business.
I've got all my food prepped andready to go.
I've got everything weighed out.
I've got my structure set up, myschedule set up.
Everything's dialed in andoptimized.
Everything is in place.
And I do not deviate from it atall.
(31:01):
And that is how you see theresults.
Super simple.
Not easy.
Super simple.
Lorenz (31:08):
Yeah.
how how do you retract thosedemons though?
you know, demons talking aboutjust deviations,
Robert (31:15):
yeah, I mean, I don't know, I mean, perspective is a
lot of it.
Like the more you do it, theeasier it gets because you have
that perspective.
But honestly, just like how baddo you want it?
Like everybody's got, you know,conflictions in life.
Everybody's got distractions.
Everybody's got.
Things that are pulling at them.
But if you truly want it and youwant to take it to the next
level, then anything that doesnot contribute to you getting to
(31:35):
the next level is noise in yourlife and should be removed from
the equation entirely.
Lorenz (31:42):
How do you.
Like, obviously a client maycome to you and I love what
you're saying, your client comesto you and he believes that he
wants to, you know, shred, hewants to be shredded.
He wants to have six pack abs bythe end of this, maybe seven,
seven months Seven monthjourney.
(32:03):
How do you know that, thatthey're actually committed to
the process?
Or how do you get them to commitor is that part of the, or do
you, do they have to come to youcommitted already?
Robert (32:17):
I mean, I can usually tell when I'm working with
somebody, I can usually tell thefirst few weeks if they've
bought in or not, like, youknow, if they're active on my
communication with them, ifthey're you know, sending me
updates proactively.
Then I know that they wouldn'tlike, I've got some clients that
I'm always having to reach outto them.
Like, Hey, what's your way in?
Hey, did you work out this week?
(32:37):
Hey, did you hit your macros?
They're just like notresponsive.
You know, like if that's thecase, then I already know
everything I need to know.
Like they're not going to beputting in the
Lorenz (32:45):
right, right.
right.
Ah, I imagined that.
I imagined that, you know,somebody not being responsive.
That means that says a lot,actually.
Without saying anything Hey man,this new thing you got going on,
man, you got this contest prepcourse.
You talked about this contentprep course and I heard it's the
most comprehensive course on theinternet right now.
(33:09):
Talk about it, man.
Robert (33:11):
Yeah.
So it hadn't officiallylaunched.
I don't know when this podcastis going to go live.
The course will probablyofficially launch mid May is the
goal, but yeah, it is basicallyhands down the most
comprehensive course.
On natural bodybuilding from aketogenic standpoint that you
will find online period fullstop.
No questions asked.
I mean, it's basicallyEverything that you need to know
(33:31):
about dialing things in from anatural bodybuilding standpoint
With a ketogenic diet, like itgoes into the training, the
nutrition, the macros, thecalculations, the meal prep the
posing, the, the, theeverything, like if you wanted
to dial things in and not haveto have a coach, then you could
just simply get this course ofeverything at your fingertips to
bring the best package andconditioning you could to the
(33:53):
stage, you know, without,without question.
Lorenz (33:56):
I love it, man.
Cause but this way, you know,you, you get to help a lot more
people, right?
Obviously you're just oneperson.
Robert (34:03):
That's the goal.
Lorenz (34:04):
everybody, Yeah, And I'm excited for it, man.
It's like you're talking to me.
It's like you're talking to mehere.
This, this, I get selfish now.
This interview is for me.
Haha.
Robert (34:18):
it, man.
There's going to be a communityfeature there so everybody can
kind of like collaborate withone another and have that
accountability kind of bakedinto it.
It's got like its own specialtyAI software that is all built
around, you know, my protocoland the ketogenic diet and
everything.
So it's, it's verycomprehensive.
I think it's just gonna be anamazing resource for everybody
that wants to take things to thenext level.
(34:38):
My
Lorenz (34:39):
man.
I appreciate that.
I appreciate what you're doing,man.
Appreciate you coming on hereand just dropping some nuggets
of information, man.
You know, when it comes to ketobodybuilding, there's no other
person out there who talks, whotalks the talk and walks the
walk at the same time, man.
And not nothing better than tohave Robert Sykes here on our
(35:00):
podcast.
So thank you, Robert, for.
Coming on, man, sharing yourstory, man.
You're, you're amazing.
Keep doing what you're doing.
Robert (35:07):
pleasure, man.
I really appreciate theopportunity.
I'm super passionate about thislifestyle, so I appreciate you
letting me just get the wordout.
So, yeah, man.
Thank you.
Lorenz (35:15):
Thanks brother.
Appreciate you, man.
All right.
Bye bye.
Robert (35:18):
Take care.
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