May 15, 2024 • 41 mins
In this episode, we delve into the mind of one of history's most enigmatic figures, Charles Manson. Guided by the expertise of my guest, Aaliyah Booker, a criminal justice graduate of Penn State Beaver, we navigate Manson's formative years and dissect the psychological entanglements that led him to the Tate-LaBianca murders in 1969.
We discuss the chilling details of that fateful night at Cielo Drive, Manson's foiled musical ambitions, and how a thirst for recognition may have kindled the flames of violence. The conversation takes us through the murky waters of Manson's objectives, pondering the role of chance versus intent in the selection of his victims, and how his followers' blind loyalty culminated in a legacy of bloodshed and horror.
Finally, we explore the mechanisms of control and influence that define cult leaders like Manson. With Aaliyah's perspective guiding the discussion, we examine the connection between a leader's quest for structure and the design of prison life, alongside the tale of Manson's need for belonging, as evidenced by his correspondence with the Moundsville State Penitentiary. Join us for this exploration of a man whose legacy continues to stir both fascination and revulsion.
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A psych professor's podcast about danger, deception, and desire. From the ugly truth about rage rooms and our unhealthy obsession with serial killers, to the ancestral wisdom of goosebumps and the science behind why we keep playing the lottery, join Dr. Kevin Bennett—Penn State University Beaver Campus Teaching Professor, Psychology Today contributor, and fellow at the Centre for Urban Design and Mental Health (UD/MH)—as we unmask the power of danger, deception, and desire through sensational stories and savvy behavioral science.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes,
listener discretion is advised.
This episode contains adultlanguage and explicit discussion
of murder and assault that somelisteners may find traumatic.
We advise extreme caution forchildren under 14.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
You are listening to Kevin Bennett is Snarling.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Go ahead and have a seat right there and make
yourself comfortable.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Do whatever you want.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Everyone's had a different approach.
I'm Kevin Bennett, psychologyprofessor at Penn State
University, beaver Campus, andthis is a show about danger,
deception and desire.
My guest today is AaliyahBooker.
Aaliyah is a senior criminaljustice major at Penn State,
beaver, and she has two minorsOne is in psychological science
(00:48):
and the other is in civicengagement.
Aaliyah is the 2023-2024 WalkerAward winner.
The award recognizes Penn Statestudents whose outstanding
qualities of character,scholarship, leadership and
citizenship contribute to theprestige and well-being of their
campus, and in fact, it is thethird year in a row that Aaliyah
(01:10):
has won this amazing award.
Every other semester, I teach acourse on the psychology of
serial killers at Penn State,and she was one of my excellent
students in this class thissemester.
Recently, aaliyah sat down withme to talk about Charles Manson
, the infamous cult leader.
(01:37):
Charles Manson, a man whose namehas become synonymous with
manipulation and terror, wasborn in 1934.
His early life was marked byneglect and abuse, setting the
stage for a troubled adulthood.
Manson spent much of his youthin and out of reform schools and
prisons, where he honed hisskills in manipulation and
control.
(01:57):
By the late 1960s, he hadgathered a devoted group of
followers, known as the Mansonfamily who believed in his
apocalyptic visions andcharismatic leadership.
Manson's ability to exploit thevulnerabilities of his
followers, combined with hispersuasive personality, led to a
series of horrific murders in1969, including the infamous
(02:21):
Tate-LaBianca killings.
The Tate-LaBianca murders,orchestrated by Charles Manson
and carried out by his followersin August 1969, were among the
most shocking and brutal crimesof the 20th century.
Over two nights, manson'sfollowers murdered seven people
in Los Angeles, starting withactress Sharon Tate, who was
(02:42):
eight months pregnant, and fourothers at her home Jay Sebring,
abigail Folger, the heiress tothe Folger coffee fortune,
Wojciech Frykowski and StephenParent.
The following night, the groupkilled Leno and Rosemary
LaBianca in their home.
The murders were part ofManson's delusional plan to
(03:03):
incite a race war, which hetermed Helter Skelter, and were
marked by their gruesome nature,with victims stabbed multiple
times and messages written inblood at the crime scenes.
These killings shocked thenation and cemented Manson's
infamy as one of history's mostnotorious cult leaders.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Kevin Bennett is snarling.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Begins now.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Who was Charles Manson?
Why the heck are we talkingabout this guy all these years
later?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Charles Manson was a guy who became a serial killer.
I don't think that's what hechose to do.
I think that all of whatoccurred within his family and
his upbringing led him to that,and everything just kind of
still shocks people to this dayabout how large his following
was, how he was so charismaticand able to manipulate these
(04:07):
people in a way to follow himand get all of these people who
were so vulnerable to just kindof flock towards him and carry
out this plan that he wanted tobe done.
So it's just interesting to mehow he was a man with a plan and
he executed it, sad to say, butvery well.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
And you used the term serial killer, but, as you know
, I mean he didn't even killanybody, right?
I mean his, and he's the oneperson in this class I think
he's the only one that didn'tactually kill anybody.
But he was one of the main casestudies in this course.
Was he a mass murderer?
Was he a serial killer?
(04:44):
Well, he was none of the abovereally.
He was a persuader, he was acon man and he influenced people
, he manipulated people andthat's why we're still talking
about it today, because the casewas so unusual from the
standpoint that you've got thiscult leader.
He's got dozens or evenhundreds of followers, but at
his core it was just really ahandful of people and they were
(05:07):
the ones that went out and didthe dirty work for the most part
, but he was held accountablefor organizing all of these
things.
So there's so many things totalk about with Charles Manson
and how he fits into society atlarge.
And is he a product of hisenvironment or is there
something going on with hisbrain, different brain
(05:28):
structures that made him the wayhe was?
And certainly the connectionsto not just him but all of these
followers and all thesecultural connections.
I mean it.
Just it seems to reverberateand you know there've been many
movies made about him andcertainly documentaries and
podcasts, and people seem to beendlessly fascinated with
(05:49):
Charles Manson.
And I'm still trying to figureout why.
Because if you met him inperson he would not be an
intimidating physical specimenin front of you.
I mean, he was frail, petite,tiny.
I mean he couldn't win aphysical fight, but he knew that
and that wasn't his MO, if hehad one.
(06:10):
So talk a little bit about howhe ended up being this
charismatic evil cult leader.
Where'd that all come from?
Speaker 3 (06:20):
There were people who were vulnerable, who were
looking for someone, who werelooking for a sense of community
, family, and what he did was heprovided that, in a way of you
can come live on these rancheswith me, we'll be one big, happy
family.
And he targeted a lot of thesewomen who were just looking for
a companion.
And that's how he was gettingwith them, because they were
(06:41):
having sexual intercourse and hewas getting wrapped up in that
and they were having theserelations.
So they all felt, in a way,that this was their person, this
was their leader, this wastheir family and they didn't
know how to break away from that.
And then it didn't help eitherthat he would make them feel
this sense of pride aboutthemselves, because I remember
Susan Atkins saying that he hada way of telling her who she was
(07:05):
without even using words.
So these women flocked to himbecause they loved the way that
he would make them feel, and atthat point they would even take
up for him, even though he wasthe man with the plan and they
were the ones that executed it.
Like Susan Atkins said, he hadnothing to do with it, it was
all me.
And even when he was gettinginto trouble.
It was like those women weresaying, you know, let them go,
(07:26):
we're in a relationship.
So it just seemed like throughthe sexual relationships they
had his charismatic personality.
That's how he would just kindof get them to join his family.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So he had a certain style of you know, I guess,
leadership style or cult leaderstyle, and that was to go.
I mean to go out and findmostly women, young women who
were vulnerable, like you said,in need of belonging, looking
for that sense of belonging.
(07:56):
And he didn't just randomlypick people, I mean, he seemed
to have an eye for who was mostvulnerable and who would be most
susceptible to hismanipulations.
And I think he knew in SanFrancisco and in Southern
California that there were somany young people that were
disenfranchised, that maybe ranaway from home, got into
(08:18):
arguments with their parents andsaid like I'm never talking to
you again.
And so he knew that they werealready vulnerable and they were
looking for a place to land,because a lot of these kids were
trying to find their own wayand try to find their own
identity, as so many youngpeople are.
And there's also this built-insense that, well, whatever
(08:41):
communities already exist,they're just not for me, like
I'm not fitting in and I can'tseem to find the bond I'm
looking for.
And along comes Charlie and heoffers all these things.
He says everyone else outsideof our group you can't trust,
everything's bad, everything'sgoing to hell, and I'm here to
help and I have all the answersand all you have to do is trust
(09:02):
me and trust us and we'll giveyou a home and that that for
most of us that's not appealingat all, because we know he's a
cult leader, but for a smallpercentage of people that's
exactly what they're looking forbecause it's better than what
they're they currently have yeah, and that's what, and that's
what he.
He had the numbers on his sidebecause he knew he, out of the
(09:23):
millions of people in the UnitedStates at the time, he only
needed, you know, a couple dozenpeople to complete his, his,
his plan, as you, as you said.
So when did he hatch this plan?
I mean he didn't have it hiswhole life right.
I mean this he was trying to doother things before he was
really a cult leader.
I mean, he was in jail quite abit.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
He did so he started off with.
I'm just going to go throughhis whole kind of history of
everything.
But he started off young.
He was just trying.
His whole thing was trying tomake a way for himself and a lot
of that included burglarizinghouses.
And then, when that didn't workout, he resulted to stealing
(10:07):
cars and he would drive themacross state lines which led him
into a different couple offederal institutions, which is
where he kind of stayed for alittle bit.
And then after that he kind ofgot out and he had a wife and he
had a baby with her and hestarted back to stealing cars.
But in that meantime he didvarious service works that he
(10:29):
tried to get into, realized itreally wasn't working for him
and resulted back into the lifeof stealing cars once again.
And then, once he did that, heand him and his wife got a
divorce.
He went on to becoming a pimpand he would pimp out all these
women.
He would con people, schemethem out of their money and he
just kind of lived this wholelife of crime until about around
(10:52):
1960s he decided he wouldincite a race war that he would
term as helter skelter and heneeded these people to kind of
incite this race war and what hewanted to do was plant the
wallet of one of the LaBiancafrom the LaBianca family and
place it in the African-Americancommunity.
(11:13):
So it would seem like thesomeone from the
African-American community wasthe one that was doing the
killings, and not Charles Mansonor his disciples.
So that was kind of his wholeplan and how it formulated.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, I mean exactly and it I mean that's a plan.
That's a plan that could haveworked.
Honestly, I think you know youplant some wallet in a community
where people are alreadysuspecting, so I mean it could
have worked.
Now, the name Helter Skelterwhere did that come from?
(11:46):
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I do.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
This is the Beatles.
Yes, the Beatles connection.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, so there was a Beatles song named Helter
Skelter and he was a hugeBeatles fan.
Trump Manson was, so heidolized everything the Beatles
had to say and he really feltlike the Beatles were talking to
him directly and saying here'sthe plan.
It's helter skelter.
The funny thing is helterskelter is just the British term
(12:12):
for a children's slide thatgoes around.
You go up to the top and you godown and you spin around.
And those are some of thelyrics from the actual song you
go up and you come down.
It's just a goofy song.
It's not at all about a racewar, but that's how Manson
interpreted it.
But also, Manson was anaspiring songwriter himself.
(12:33):
He was a musician.
I think that's what he reallywanted to do.
He was in and out of prison hiswhole life, starting at a
really young age juveniledetention centers and then
prisons.
And he got out in the 1960s,like you said, he went to
California and he wanted toestablish himself as a guitar
player and a songwriter and hewrote some songs and they were.
(12:54):
One of them was actuallyrecorded by the Beach Boys, but
he never got the recordingcontract that he felt that he
deserved.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
And that's where the Sharon Tate murders kind of came
from.
Because I read somewhere whereit stated that he was really
looking for Terry Melcher whowanted to listen to his music,
was going to sign him to arecord contract, then decided,
yep, no, this isn't for me,we're not going to do it anymore
.
So then when he told Tex Watsonor yes, Tex Watson and all of
(13:24):
them, hey, go to 10050 CelioDrive and go kill them as
gruesomely as you can, I thinkit was really intended for Terry
Melcher, but Sharon T and allof her friends happened to be in
the house at the time and itwas unbeknown to him that there
was a change of plans.
And it was unbeknownst to himthat there was a change of plans
(13:45):
.
But it's a little weird, though, because I also read somewhere
too where Susan Atkins had saidthat was always the plan was to
kill Sharon Tate because theywanted to make this statement,
they wanted to have this, theywant to shock the world with
what they were doing.
So I'm a little bit confused onthat aspect of if Charles
Manson was going after TerryMelcher or was he going after
(14:07):
Sharon Tate to prove a pointwithin the Hollywood world.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah, it's unclear what he really knew and what,
how much the plan actuallymatched up with what happened in
real life.
Because we know that TerryMelcher lived there at one point
and then he moved on.
But I'm not sure Manson knewthat.
I think he assumed that TerryMelcher still lived there, but
he's not there.
Yeah, and other people say, no,everyone knew Sharon Tate was
(14:34):
there and that would be a goodvictim for the purpose of
broadcasting his plan.
And it's still unclear and youknow, even to this day.
But we do know that it was ahorrific crime scene, just
terrible.
And Manson was not there, itwas some of his followers that
(14:55):
went out there and carried outthat crime.
And then the next day theyvisited another location in Los
Angeles, the LaBianca house.
And do you know how that housewas picked?
I mean, how'd they select thatplace out of all the homes in
Los Angeles?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
So from what I know is I know Lino LaBianca was a
grocery store owner out in LA.
I'm under the assumption it'sbecause he knew that he was a
familiar name and he wanted toattract the attention that way.
But I'm not entirely sure.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
I'm not even sure it's that.
I mean, I think that there's,and it's unclear with this one
as well, but years ago he wasout at the house next door to
the LaBiancas doing some type ofburglary theft and he thought
that would be a good spot to goback to.
And I think when they went backthey realized there were
children there and they decidednot to go into that house.
(15:47):
So they just decided to go intothe neighbor's house, which
happened to be a La Bianca's.
It could be as simple as that.
I'm not sure, but I don't thinkin either of these cases that
the people who lived in thehouse were targeted because of
who they were.
It's almost like just what theyrepresented, which was wealth
and power and the status quo,all these things that the Manson
(16:09):
family was looking to breakdown.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
And between the two cases I did notice that, even
though Charles Manson wasn't thekiller, it was almost like they
kind of had the same MO in away, because all the four
victims within the Tate housewere bounded together and killed
and then the LaBianca husbandand wife were bound together and
killed, other and killed.
(16:32):
So I don't know if that wasjust a coincidence or if it was
a, if it was just something thatjust happened to turn out that
way, or was that really whatthey wanted to do?
Hey, let's go in, let's time upand then let's kill him.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
I don't know if that had any correlation between the
two cases and it's it's supercomplicated because you got so
many people involved.
It's not like one serial killerand you know that's the only
person who's the key player here.
You have Charles Manson at thehelm.
He's telling people what to doand he did not go out to the
(17:06):
Sharon Tate house.
But apparently he did go out tothe LaBianca house and I guess
he entered, but he didn't killanyone there.
He was just at the crime scene.
He didn't kill anyone there.
(17:28):
He was just at the crime sceneand Leslie Van Houten, who was
one of his followers she was notat the Sharon Tate house but
they wanted her to be involved.
Somehow he wanted all thesefollowers to be involved
directly, like with the youLaBianca in the back like 16
times.
But she may have already beendead at that point and so it's
unclear for Leslie Van Houten.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
You know if she actually committed murder or if
she just helped to desecrate abody after it was already dead.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
But she wanted to participate some way because
these Manson family members werestarting to feel left out, the
ones who were not part of thesekillings, and so she
participated and she spent therest of her life in jail.
In fact, she was just let out.
Within this past year Herparole came up again and this
(18:08):
time they let her out.
So she's living somewhere inCalifornia.
I believe she's like 70something years old in
California.
I believe she's, like you know,70 something years old.
But pretty much everyoneinvolved in this case, you know,
they served some kind of jailtime and, of course, charles
Manson went to prison for therest of his life until he died.
I can't remember what year hedied, I don't know if you know
(18:30):
that off the top of your head,but he died in prison a few
years ago, you know.
But he died in prison a fewyears ago.
You know, in the aftermath ofit, los Angeles, in fact all of
California, was terrifiedbecause you have what looked
like random killings and reallygory, brutal killings, and so,
(19:02):
you know, people were out buyinglocks and alarms in record
numbers around Los Angeles, andthose two murders were
back-to-back in August ofwhatever year that was 1969.
So everyone was on high alertand nobody knew who was doing it
.
Was it one person or a couple?
Was it a cult?
I don't think people thought atthe beginning, oh, this is a
cult, because that's such astrange thing, until everything
ultimately came out.
And then you had the infamoustrials with Charles Manson I
(19:23):
don't know if you want to talk alittle bit about that Like what
happened there with the girlswho would come to the courtroom
every day.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
For me it just kind of showed that Charles Manson
had no remorse for what he didwhatsoever.
And it almost just kind ofshowed that Charles Manson had
no remorse for what he didwhatsoever and it almost just
kind of showed how sick hisfollowing was.
Because here he is on trial andthese females would show up
support him wearing theseoutfits.
And at one point Charles Mansonshaved his head.
There was a big fat X on it,then later kind of turned into a
(19:52):
swastika and then these girlsshowed up with the X on it.
So it was like even all of whathe was going through, his
followers still remainsupportive and it kind of
attract this attention of allthese different females who
still wanted his attention in away to come out and support him.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You know, anytime a cult leader is trying to manage
a group of people, there's asense of control, or you know
loss of control, or you knowloss of control and he had
control at one point.
He could basically tell themwhat to do, and they would
always listen.
And then, as time went on, hewas starting to lose control a
little bit.
They were starting to doubt theyou know, his authority and his
um, his, his skills, hisabilities and so, and he would
(20:34):
tell people you know, theoutside, anywhere, anywhere
outside of this community, isjust evil.
These people are terrible.
And they would go down, theywould take these trips into town
from the spawn ranch where theylived, and they would see that
there are people like families,having ice cream and picnics and
playing Frisbee.
And so he started to lose alittle bit of control there,
(20:56):
because his followers saw thisand they're like this doesn't
look too bad, the sun's out andpeople are laughing and eating
ice cream how bad is the world?
And so he realized he had tostep it up a notch.
And so that's when he reallysuggested okay, we've got to go
out.
And do you know, death to pigsand helter skelter.
And that's when the Sharon Tatemurders took place and that's
(21:18):
so typical for cult leadersbecause they need to isolate
their community, eitherphysically or online or
everything.
They don't want cult memberstalking to outside family
members.
You know, if they have a youknow a brother on the outside or
a dad, you're not allowed totalk with them because of course
their family's going to sayyou're in a cult, this is nuts,
(21:41):
we need to get you out.
So he tried to cut off allcommunication.
But every once in a whilesomebody would get out and
they'd reconnect with theirfamily and he would go to great
lengths to try to get them tocome back.
And it was usually fear, it wasterror, and so he would go to
great lengths to try to get themto come back.
And it was usually fear, it wasterror.
And so he would employ some ofthe male followers to go out and
(22:01):
bring the girls back who weretrying to leave.
And he basically said to theseguys just threaten them right,
threaten their lives or say I'mgoing to kill your family if you
don't come back with us.
And that's when you really knowyou're in a cult, if you know
how to leave.
And people threaten your familyif you don't if you don't come
back with us.
And that's when you really knowyou're in a cult, if you know
how to leave and people threatenyour family.
But that was just a basicstrategy that he used all the
(22:21):
time, but he relied on otherpeople to do that.
You know, he was never the oneto say I'm gonna kill you.
Uh, he was always, you know,tried to be like positive and
all spiritual and everything.
But he had like text and theseother guys go and do the, do the
dirty work.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
He has a laser pointer in one hand and a double
shot of espresso in the other.
This can only mean one thingyou are listening to Kevin
Bennett is.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Snarling.
He seems like somebody who wasmore comfortable in prison,
honestly, than on the outsideand by all accounts he's been a
model prisoner even before thecult and he was in and out of
prison.
He was very well behaved and Ithink on some level he liked the
(23:16):
structure of prison and as muchas he liked to talk about
freedom and the ability to doeverything that he wants to do.
I think he felt comfortable inthat system.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Well, which is why, when I kind of saw that as well,
I thought about his cult in alittle bit, just because, like
how you said, when all of thesepeople would go out, once he
lost control, I felt like he nolonger had structure, and that's
all I felt like he wanted inhis life was some form of
structure, something that hecould go back to every day and
it would be the same throughout,because when he was growing up
(23:48):
it wasn't the same for him,which is why I think he enjoyed
being incarcerated, because heknew that he would wake up at a
certain time every day and hislife would be the exact same no
matter what, versus theuncertainty of is my mom going
to be home today, is my momgoing to be out drinking again,
you know, or am I going to be inthis home or am I going to run
away?
(24:10):
And stableness.
That I think that's why heenjoys being in prison, because
it's finally a sense of stable,stability and being able to have
structure and control and justa life that doesn't just seem
like it's going to change whenthe wind blows.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Right, Right, I agree .
And there's a.
I don't know if you've ever beento Moundsville state
penitentiary which is just downthe road from here, a couple
hours in west virginia.
It's an old penitentiary that'snow closed but we used to go
out there with the psychologyclub and go on these overnight
trips to the prison and it'sit's scary and everything, but
(24:47):
they give you a history lessonand they and they, they walk you
around and show you all theprison cells and talk about
various inmates that have beenkilled there.
And then you can go into themuseum they have and there's a
letter on the wall behind a likea glass case, and it's a letter
that Charles Manson wrote tothe warden of the prison because
his mom was at Moundsvillestate penitentiary for many
(25:10):
years and so his mom was in andout of prison.
He was in and out of prison andat one point he wanted to be in
the same prison with his mom,was in and out of prison.
He was in a prison and at onepoint he wanted to be in the
same prison with his mom.
So he wrote a letter asking thewarden you know, can I be
transferred from my prison overto be with my mom in moundsville
?
And of course that was justrejected.
But they kept the letter and ithas his actual handwriting.
He wrote like like a little kid.
(25:31):
It's like little kid writing,but it's, it's.
It's something to see an actualpiece of paper that he, you
know he wrote it.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
He wrote a letter which is on that paper, which
kind of brings me back to thethe part we talked about earlier
where you said is it hisupbringing or is it something in
his brain?
And I do really feel like it washis upbringing because he just
wanted a family, which is why Ifeel like he started his own
family and he knew that andwhich is why I felt like it kind
of became a cult, because hedidn't want those people to
(25:59):
leave, like his his mom left, orhe didn't want those people to
leave Like he never knew his dad.
He wanted to have those peoplestay so they would always be in
his life and he'd always havethem around him, which is why I
really do feel like if he wouldhave had a more stable
upbringing and it wasn't filledwith neglect and trauma of not
having a mother for basicallyyour whole time of in those
(26:21):
crucial years of growing up andhaving that sense of nourishment
and development, then he mightnot have developed into the guy
he was.
He just wanted the affectionand the attachment and for
someone to love him just asequally as he wanted to love
back.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Well, I'm glad you addressed that because I wanted
to ask you that.
I mean what?
You know what?
What turned him into the personthat he became?
Was it something he was bornwith?
Was it his terrible childhoodCause he, yeah, it was not a
good childhood.
He basically had no mom, he hadno dad.
I think there was a sense ofabandonment that he had.
And he was, at the same time,he was fairly smart as a kid and
(27:00):
he was socially skilled.
I mean, he's a great talker,he's a gifted speaker, like a
bullshit artist basically, buthe's capable.
You know, some people are justreally quiet and they don't ever
say anything, but he would talkall the time.
He's quite confident in hisspeaking ability.
That was his strength.
It wasn't physical strength, itwas his gift to manipulate
(27:20):
people, to read people.
He was able to read people'sminds and their emotions and
figure out what they wanted, andthen he figured out a way to
deliver that, or at leastconvince them that he was
delivering.
That, I should say so.
Could there be another CharlesManson?
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (27:39):
I don't think so.
It's kind of hard to be whoCharles Manson was, and the
reason I say that is because hemade a name for himself and he's
still continuing to make a namefor himself years later and
it's still baffling to peopleabout how all of this took place
.
So, in order for there to beanother and I and the reason I
(28:00):
say that too is because thehallucinogenics and all of that
were very big back then so itwas much easier to persuade
someone when they're under thatthat spell that you kind of need
them to, to get them to do whatyou need to do.
And I'm not saying they're asbig now, but I really don't feel
like there is as used now asthey were back then.
(28:21):
And then the talk about cultsall the time.
I think a lot of those peoplewere very ignorant to the fact
that they were in a cult andthey just saw it as a community,
as a sense of belonging.
So now that I feel like cultsare touched on a little bit more
, hallucinogenics are touched ona little bit more, everything
is just kind of being more awareand brought out into the open.
(28:42):
It's harder to replicatereplicate what he did because
he's no longer appealing toignorance.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Let's talk about the drugs for a second and then just
cults in general.
But he utilized hallucinogenicdrugs to gain control over his
people, his followers, and fromwhat I've read, he didn't really
use a lot of the drugs himself.
He would take a real small doseof something but give, like the
(29:11):
big doses to everyone else sothat he was always in control
and they were off in thathallucinogenic fantasy land,
listening to him then talk, thenhe would just preach while they
were high on acid or whateverdrugs they were taking.
So he really used that to hisadvantage and I I wouldn't
describe him as a user who wasalways high and out of control.
(29:35):
He was the opposite.
He was sober for the most part,um, so he used that effectively
, but that by itself wasn't whyhe was successful, you know,
because anyone could try to givepeople drugs.
It doesn't mean they're goingto have a successful cult, so.
But he used that as a tool.
And then he used his sort ofnatural abilities to read people
(29:55):
and feed them what they want.
He was even.
He even used really, reallybasic persuasion techniques that
come right out of the AndrewCarnegie or sorry, the Dale
Carnegie school of persuasion,and there was a book that was
written way back in the 1930scalled how to win friends and
(30:15):
influence people, and it wasdesigned for business people
like salespeople to establishrapport and then get them to buy
your product or service.
Well, he read that and reallyliked those things, but he
didn't use them for business.
He applied them to buy yourproduct or service.
Well, he read that and reallyliked those things, but he
didn't use them for business.
He applied them to the cult.
But some of those techniquesare just everyday, ordinary
things.
There's nothing really magicalabout what he was doing.
(30:36):
He would just try to get peopleto say yes early on in a
conversation.
You know that's like persuasion101 or sales 101.
And so let's talk about cultsin general.
No, I've said this before.
Nobody wakes up and says, well,I'm going to join a cult today,
right, because why would anyonedo that?
(30:57):
Even people that are in cults,they don't say I'm in a cult.
They say I found my community,like you said, the sense of
belonging, and so an effectivecult leader never uses the term
cult.
They don't recruit people andsay, would you like to join my
cult, because everyone would sayno.
They say I have the answersthat you're looking for right
and we will protect you and loveyou and take care of you, and
(31:20):
so there's a feeling that I'mgoing, I'm entering into this
group that's going to love me,and nobody else has loved me.
So this is a great place to be.
An outside observer would lookin and go.
This is a cult.
But people on the inside justgo.
These are my people, this is mycommunity, and Manson was
(31:42):
really skilled at doing that,walking that fine line between
hey, this is a cult, do what Isay, or versus.
You know, I'm letting you befree.
That's what I'm giving you isfreedom, right, you're allowed
to have your own thoughts here.
That's what I'm all about.
But it wasn't.
It was all about himcontrolling them, but he told
them you're free here.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
I feel like you hit it right, right on the mark.
He in a way had them thinking,yes, this is what I can do for
you, but I felt like it was onthe terms of what you're also
going to do for me, and he kindof kept that wrapped around as
long as you're helping me, aslong as you're scratching my
back, I can scratch yours.
And they enjoyed that.
(32:19):
So that's where I felt likethat cult part kind of came from
.
And, like you mentioned, no oneever just says, yes, this is my
cult, but that's what he calledit his family.
And they lived together as asense of community and their own
little parts on the ranch, andso they had their own family,
they had their own community,and that's what it looked like
(32:41):
to them.
It didn't look like anythingmore because they didn't see it
as anything more.
And I think they were blindedby everything that was going on
in their outside world, that itwas kind of blinding them from
seeing what was truly happening.
And I feel like that's whathappens to most people they
don't realize they're in oneuntil they're already in one,
because they're trying to pushout all the other stuff and
accept what's being brought tothem.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, and family sounds a lot better than cult.
So, yeah, using the word family, I mean, that's something,
that's a word that we all like.
So that's what he used thefamily.
This is our family, the Mansonfamily.
And then, finally, I've beenasking everyone about their case
studies.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Why did you pick this one as opposed to all the
others that you could haveselected.
So when you had your class, youhad mentioned the Once Upon a
Time in Hollywood movie and Iwent to watch that movie and
something about the way it wasdone kind of intrigued me a
little bit more about CharlesManson, because it was almost
like the reverse of everythingthat happened.
That kind of made me want tolearn, okay, what really truly
(33:45):
happened.
Why did he do what he did?
Charles manson never laid a handon anyone, he never
participated in any of thekillings but yet somehow is
responsible for all the killingsand orchestrated them in a way
to where it was like his namewasn't attached to it until it
was and until all of thesepeople kind of came out and said
, yes, this is, this is why Idid what I did, and I didn't
(34:07):
know what I was doing becauseCharles Manson had me doing this
and I didn't know that it was a.
So it like everything that kindof just took place.
It was everything about CharlesManson was a mystery, and I
guess I just kind of wanted tosolve it a little bit more, at
least try and find out a littlebit more of why he was who he
was and why these people were soattached to him in order to do
(34:28):
what?
To do what they did, becauseI've always said I couldn't kill
for someone else.
But yet he had a hundred peoplewilling to do what he like,
willing to do these killings,and four main people that would
bend at his will and need,especially Tex Watson, who was
his right hand man and, ifCharles said it, he was the
first one to go do it and wouldorchestrate people to join him
to do it.
(34:48):
So I just felt like I didn'twant to learn from him, but I
wanted to learn more about him.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
You know and let me follow up on that briefly,
because, oh, you mentioned OnceUpon a Time in Hollywood and
that's funny that that was kindof your entrance into Charles
Manson.
Is that right?
Like you didn't know much abouthim.
Then you watch that movie and Ilove that movie because I've
always liked Quentin Tarantinoand I've always been interested
in the Manson case.
(35:15):
And then when that movie cameout I thought it was so original
because it's an alternateending, right?
Speaker 3 (35:21):
The ending is not what actually happened.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
That worries me a little bit, that people watch
that and they think, oh, that'swhat happened.
But no, that's the fun part ofthe movie For someone like me
that's been studying CharlesManson for years.
Then you go, oh yes, it wouldhave been so much better if it
turned out this way.
Right, but it's this nice blendof the story it's played out in
history and then the ending isjust what if?
(35:45):
What if this happened instead?
Um, but I'm just wondering.
I have my own what ifs and thatis uh, it's quite possible that
manson and the family wouldhave never been caught or
connected with those murders.
But somebody talked in prison.
It was one of his femalefollowers was yeah, susan atkins
.
(36:05):
she was arrested on some otherunrelated charge and then she
was talking to somebody inprison saying, oh yeah, that was
the Manson family that did theTate murders.
And had she not said that, Idon't know if they ever would
have connected those murderswith this group of I don't even
want to call them hippies thatare living out in the Spahn
Ranch.
I don't know.
Or it would have taken longer,certainly, to make the
(36:27):
connection.
They probably would have killedmore people before they were
caught.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
I definitely think that more people would have
ended up dying.
But Susan Atkins was talking toher cellmate at the time and I
think she wanted thiscredibility of, yes, I'm a
killer, I'm a murderer, and ifyou get in my way you'll end up
dead too.
And I think that was kind ofher putting her foot down,
trying to make herself seem morethan what she was and in turn
(36:51):
got everyone else caught up inthe process.
But I don't even think that washer true goal.
I think that she just wanted tolive up to the standard that
she wasn't, so that while shewas incarcerated bad things
didn't happen to her All right.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
What else can we say about Charles Manson?
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Charles Manson was a man who, till this day, even
though he is dead, I don't thinkhe knew the gravity of what he
did, or if he knew why he wasdoing it.
I don't even think he knew thetrue reason for it.
I think that he just wantedattachment, he wanted a sense of
purpose, he wanted to hurtpeople who had what he was
(37:29):
missing, and I think that's moreso of where it came from.
But Charles Manson, in my eyes,isn't someone who was born a
killer, wasn't someone who hadthis brain defect that made him
into one.
But I think it's more so of histrauma in his early life and
those developmental years thatmade him into one.
But I think it's more so of histrauma in his early life, in
those developmental years thatmade him into the person he
(37:50):
became so he was a product ofhis terrible environment.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
I tend to agree with that.
I mean, there are some serialkillers where you look at them
and you go well, there's clearlysomething going on with their
brain and they had traumaticbrain injuries when they were
younger and uh.
And then there's others whereyou go, wow, it's just one
traumatic event after another intheir early years and you go
well, nobody could come out ofthat and be normal, and I think
(38:15):
Manson fits into that category.
Is there any one thing thatcould have prevented all this?
Like, if something happened toCharles Manson different than
what he actually experienced,would it have changed?
I think so the trajectory ofthis terrible history.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
I think even if he just had his mother in his life,
who was stable and who wouldhave raised him, even if she was
a single mother and his fatherwasn't present, I just think he
needed some form of parentalguidance and just someone to
love him and make him feel asevery human should feel, and you
know how that there's like thatMaslow hierarchy of needs.
(38:52):
His needs weren't met and Ifeel like love is kind of one of
those basic needs that you doneed and his basic needs weren't
met, which led him to becomewho he was.
And I think that even if itwasn't his mom, but someone in
his family, whether it be agrandma, grandfather, just
someone that could have raisedhim and shown him that affection
(39:14):
that he was craving, I thinkthat it would have had a
different impact.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
You know, it's really interesting that you mentioned
Maslow's hierarchy, because Ithink I don't know if Manson was
aware of it, but even if he wasnot aware of it he seemed to
make use of it, because at thebase of the pyramid you have
physical needs, right, basicbiological needs and safety,
food, water, those things.
And as you move up the pyramidit turns more social.
(39:40):
So you have things like loveand sense of belonging that are
up on the hierarchy and thoseare things that he talked about
all the time.
He talked about love because hesaid he preached love and the
cult is all about belonging andcreating a sense of belonging.
And then, at the very top ofthe pyramid, you have
self-actualization, which isyour intellectual and emotional
(40:03):
coming out and you're sayinghere's who I am, who I want to
be, and so you have this kind oflong-term vision of yourself
and how you fit into yourcommunity and you're able to
look back in the past and makeuse of that information to
inform your future.
So it's this grand theory.
I don't think he was very muchinto the whole
self-actualization, but the loveand the sense of belonging
(40:25):
parts, and the physical andthose safety needs and
biological needs I think he wasaware of those.
So I guess the point I'm makingis that he was aware of this
pyramid and took full advantageof it, because he used some of
those ideas to manipulate hisfollowers.
(40:45):
Aliyah, thanks for talkingabout Charles Manson.
Have a great day.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Thank you.
This podcast was recorded andedited by Kevin Bennett in the
beautiful foothills of westernPennsylvania.
You can find Kevin on Twitterat KevinBennettPhD.
For email, Facebook and othercontact info, head over to
Kevin-Bennettcom.
That's Kevin Bennett, with adash in between.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
If you are interested in more stories about
psychology, science and popculture, check out my writing
over at Psychology Today.
Just Google Kevin Bennett,Psychology Today.
Thanks for listening and pleaseremember to be good, Be good.
Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes,
listener discretion is advised.
This episode contains adultlanguage and explicit discussion
of murder and assault that somelisteners may find traumatic.
We advise extreme caution forchildren under 14.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
You are listening to Kevin Bennett is Snarling.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Go ahead and have a seat right there and make
yourself comfortable.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Do whatever you want.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Everyone's had a different approach.
I'm Kevin Bennett, psychologyprofessor at Penn State
University, beaver Campus, andthis is a show about danger,
deception and desire.
My guest today is AaliyahBooker.
Aaliyah is a senior criminaljustice major at Penn State,
beaver, and she has two minorsOne is in psychological science
(00:48):
and the other is in civicengagement.
Aaliyah is the 2023-2024 WalkerAward winner.
The award recognizes Penn Statestudents whose outstanding
qualities of character,scholarship, leadership and
citizenship contribute to theprestige and well-being of their
campus, and in fact, it is thethird year in a row that Aaliyah
(01:10):
has won this amazing award.
Every other semester, I teach acourse on the psychology of
serial killers at Penn State,and she was one of my excellent
students in this class thissemester.
Recently, aaliyah sat down withme to talk about Charles Manson
, the infamous cult leader.
(01:37):
Charles Manson, a man whose namehas become synonymous with
manipulation and terror, wasborn in 1934.
His early life was marked byneglect and abuse, setting the
stage for a troubled adulthood.
Manson spent much of his youthin and out of reform schools and
prisons, where he honed hisskills in manipulation and
control.
(01:57):
By the late 1960s, he hadgathered a devoted group of
followers, known as the Mansonfamily who believed in his
apocalyptic visions andcharismatic leadership.
Manson's ability to exploit thevulnerabilities of his
followers, combined with hispersuasive personality, led to a
series of horrific murders in1969, including the infamous
(02:21):
Tate-LaBianca killings.
The Tate-LaBianca murders,orchestrated by Charles Manson
and carried out by his followersin August 1969, were among the
most shocking and brutal crimesof the 20th century.
Over two nights, manson'sfollowers murdered seven people
in Los Angeles, starting withactress Sharon Tate, who was
(02:42):
eight months pregnant, and fourothers at her home Jay Sebring,
abigail Folger, the heiress tothe Folger coffee fortune,
Wojciech Frykowski and StephenParent.
The following night, the groupkilled Leno and Rosemary
LaBianca in their home.
The murders were part ofManson's delusional plan to
(03:03):
incite a race war, which hetermed Helter Skelter, and were
marked by their gruesome nature,with victims stabbed multiple
times and messages written inblood at the crime scenes.
These killings shocked thenation and cemented Manson's
infamy as one of history's mostnotorious cult leaders.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Kevin Bennett is snarling.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Begins now.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Who was Charles Manson?
Why the heck are we talkingabout this guy all these years
later?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Charles Manson was a guy who became a serial killer.
I don't think that's what hechose to do.
I think that all of whatoccurred within his family and
his upbringing led him to that,and everything just kind of
still shocks people to this dayabout how large his following
was, how he was so charismaticand able to manipulate these
(04:07):
people in a way to follow himand get all of these people who
were so vulnerable to just kindof flock towards him and carry
out this plan that he wanted tobe done.
So it's just interesting to mehow he was a man with a plan and
he executed it, sad to say, butvery well.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
And you used the term serial killer, but, as you know
, I mean he didn't even killanybody, right?
I mean his, and he's the oneperson in this class I think
he's the only one that didn'tactually kill anybody.
But he was one of the main casestudies in this course.
Was he a mass murderer?
Was he a serial killer?
(04:44):
Well, he was none of the abovereally.
He was a persuader, he was acon man and he influenced people
, he manipulated people andthat's why we're still talking
about it today, because the casewas so unusual from the
standpoint that you've got thiscult leader.
He's got dozens or evenhundreds of followers, but at
his core it was just really ahandful of people and they were
(05:07):
the ones that went out and didthe dirty work for the most part
, but he was held accountablefor organizing all of these
things.
So there's so many things totalk about with Charles Manson
and how he fits into society atlarge.
And is he a product of hisenvironment or is there
something going on with hisbrain, different brain
(05:28):
structures that made him the wayhe was?
And certainly the connectionsto not just him but all of these
followers and all thesecultural connections.
I mean it.
Just it seems to reverberateand you know there've been many
movies made about him andcertainly documentaries and
podcasts, and people seem to beendlessly fascinated with
(05:49):
Charles Manson.
And I'm still trying to figureout why.
Because if you met him inperson he would not be an
intimidating physical specimenin front of you.
I mean, he was frail, petite,tiny.
I mean he couldn't win aphysical fight, but he knew that
and that wasn't his MO, if hehad one.
(06:10):
So talk a little bit about howhe ended up being this
charismatic evil cult leader.
Where'd that all come from?
Speaker 3 (06:20):
There were people who were vulnerable, who were
looking for someone, who werelooking for a sense of community
, family, and what he did was heprovided that, in a way of you
can come live on these rancheswith me, we'll be one big, happy
family.
And he targeted a lot of thesewomen who were just looking for
a companion.
And that's how he was gettingwith them, because they were
(06:41):
having sexual intercourse and hewas getting wrapped up in that
and they were having theserelations.
So they all felt, in a way,that this was their person, this
was their leader, this wastheir family and they didn't
know how to break away from that.
And then it didn't help eitherthat he would make them feel
this sense of pride aboutthemselves, because I remember
Susan Atkins saying that he hada way of telling her who she was
(07:05):
without even using words.
So these women flocked to himbecause they loved the way that
he would make them feel, and atthat point they would even take
up for him, even though he wasthe man with the plan and they
were the ones that executed it.
Like Susan Atkins said, he hadnothing to do with it, it was
all me.
And even when he was gettinginto trouble.
It was like those women weresaying, you know, let them go,
(07:26):
we're in a relationship.
So it just seemed like throughthe sexual relationships they
had his charismatic personality.
That's how he would just kindof get them to join his family.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So he had a certain style of you know, I guess,
leadership style or cult leaderstyle, and that was to go.
I mean to go out and findmostly women, young women who
were vulnerable, like you said,in need of belonging, looking
for that sense of belonging.
(07:56):
And he didn't just randomlypick people, I mean, he seemed
to have an eye for who was mostvulnerable and who would be most
susceptible to hismanipulations.
And I think he knew in SanFrancisco and in Southern
California that there were somany young people that were
disenfranchised, that maybe ranaway from home, got into
(08:18):
arguments with their parents andsaid like I'm never talking to
you again.
And so he knew that they werealready vulnerable and they were
looking for a place to land,because a lot of these kids were
trying to find their own wayand try to find their own
identity, as so many youngpeople are.
And there's also this built-insense that, well, whatever
(08:41):
communities already exist,they're just not for me, like
I'm not fitting in and I can'tseem to find the bond I'm
looking for.
And along comes Charlie and heoffers all these things.
He says everyone else outsideof our group you can't trust,
everything's bad, everything'sgoing to hell, and I'm here to
help and I have all the answersand all you have to do is trust
(09:02):
me and trust us and we'll giveyou a home and that that for
most of us that's not appealingat all, because we know he's a
cult leader, but for a smallpercentage of people that's
exactly what they're looking forbecause it's better than what
they're they currently have yeah, and that's what, and that's
what he.
He had the numbers on his sidebecause he knew he, out of the
(09:23):
millions of people in the UnitedStates at the time, he only
needed, you know, a couple dozenpeople to complete his, his,
his plan, as you, as you said.
So when did he hatch this plan?
I mean he didn't have it hiswhole life right.
I mean this he was trying to doother things before he was
really a cult leader.
I mean, he was in jail quite abit.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
He did so he started off with.
I'm just going to go throughhis whole kind of history of
everything.
But he started off young.
He was just trying.
His whole thing was trying tomake a way for himself and a lot
of that included burglarizinghouses.
And then, when that didn't workout, he resulted to stealing
(10:07):
cars and he would drive themacross state lines which led him
into a different couple offederal institutions, which is
where he kind of stayed for alittle bit.
And then after that he kind ofgot out and he had a wife and he
had a baby with her and hestarted back to stealing cars.
But in that meantime he didvarious service works that he
(10:29):
tried to get into, realized itreally wasn't working for him
and resulted back into the lifeof stealing cars once again.
And then, once he did that, heand him and his wife got a
divorce.
He went on to becoming a pimpand he would pimp out all these
women.
He would con people, schemethem out of their money and he
just kind of lived this wholelife of crime until about around
(10:52):
1960s he decided he wouldincite a race war that he would
term as helter skelter and heneeded these people to kind of
incite this race war and what hewanted to do was plant the
wallet of one of the LaBiancafrom the LaBianca family and
place it in the African-Americancommunity.
(11:13):
So it would seem like thesomeone from the
African-American community wasthe one that was doing the
killings, and not Charles Mansonor his disciples.
So that was kind of his wholeplan and how it formulated.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, I mean exactly and it I mean that's a plan.
That's a plan that could haveworked.
Honestly, I think you know youplant some wallet in a community
where people are alreadysuspecting, so I mean it could
have worked.
Now, the name Helter Skelterwhere did that come from?
(11:46):
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I do.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
This is the Beatles.
Yes, the Beatles connection.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, so there was a Beatles song named Helter
Skelter and he was a hugeBeatles fan.
Trump Manson was, so heidolized everything the Beatles
had to say and he really feltlike the Beatles were talking to
him directly and saying here'sthe plan.
It's helter skelter.
The funny thing is helterskelter is just the British term
(12:12):
for a children's slide thatgoes around.
You go up to the top and you godown and you spin around.
And those are some of thelyrics from the actual song you
go up and you come down.
It's just a goofy song.
It's not at all about a racewar, but that's how Manson
interpreted it.
But also, Manson was anaspiring songwriter himself.
(12:33):
He was a musician.
I think that's what he reallywanted to do.
He was in and out of prison hiswhole life, starting at a
really young age juveniledetention centers and then
prisons.
And he got out in the 1960s,like you said, he went to
California and he wanted toestablish himself as a guitar
player and a songwriter and hewrote some songs and they were.
(12:54):
One of them was actuallyrecorded by the Beach Boys, but
he never got the recordingcontract that he felt that he
deserved.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
And that's where the Sharon Tate murders kind of came
from.
Because I read somewhere whereit stated that he was really
looking for Terry Melcher whowanted to listen to his music,
was going to sign him to arecord contract, then decided,
yep, no, this isn't for me,we're not going to do it anymore
.
So then when he told Tex Watsonor yes, Tex Watson and all of
(13:24):
them, hey, go to 10050 CelioDrive and go kill them as
gruesomely as you can, I thinkit was really intended for Terry
Melcher, but Sharon T and allof her friends happened to be in
the house at the time and itwas unbeknown to him that there
was a change of plans.
And it was unbeknownst to himthat there was a change of plans
(13:45):
.
But it's a little weird, though, because I also read somewhere
too where Susan Atkins had saidthat was always the plan was to
kill Sharon Tate because theywanted to make this statement,
they wanted to have this, theywant to shock the world with
what they were doing.
So I'm a little bit confused onthat aspect of if Charles
Manson was going after TerryMelcher or was he going after
(14:07):
Sharon Tate to prove a pointwithin the Hollywood world.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah, it's unclear what he really knew and what,
how much the plan actuallymatched up with what happened in
real life.
Because we know that TerryMelcher lived there at one point
and then he moved on.
But I'm not sure Manson knewthat.
I think he assumed that TerryMelcher still lived there, but
he's not there.
Yeah, and other people say, no,everyone knew Sharon Tate was
(14:34):
there and that would be a goodvictim for the purpose of
broadcasting his plan.
And it's still unclear and youknow, even to this day.
But we do know that it was ahorrific crime scene, just
terrible.
And Manson was not there, itwas some of his followers that
(14:55):
went out there and carried outthat crime.
And then the next day theyvisited another location in Los
Angeles, the LaBianca house.
And do you know how that housewas picked?
I mean, how'd they select thatplace out of all the homes in
Los Angeles?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
So from what I know is I know Lino LaBianca was a
grocery store owner out in LA.
I'm under the assumption it'sbecause he knew that he was a
familiar name and he wanted toattract the attention that way.
But I'm not entirely sure.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
I'm not even sure it's that.
I mean, I think that there's,and it's unclear with this one
as well, but years ago he wasout at the house next door to
the LaBiancas doing some type ofburglary theft and he thought
that would be a good spot to goback to.
And I think when they went backthey realized there were
children there and they decidednot to go into that house.
(15:47):
So they just decided to go intothe neighbor's house, which
happened to be a La Bianca's.
It could be as simple as that.
I'm not sure, but I don't thinkin either of these cases that
the people who lived in thehouse were targeted because of
who they were.
It's almost like just what theyrepresented, which was wealth
and power and the status quo,all these things that the Manson
(16:09):
family was looking to breakdown.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
And between the two cases I did notice that, even
though Charles Manson wasn't thekiller, it was almost like they
kind of had the same MO in away, because all the four
victims within the Tate housewere bounded together and killed
and then the LaBianca husbandand wife were bound together and
killed, other and killed.
(16:32):
So I don't know if that wasjust a coincidence or if it was
a, if it was just something thatjust happened to turn out that
way, or was that really whatthey wanted to do?
Hey, let's go in, let's time upand then let's kill him.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
I don't know if that had any correlation between the
two cases and it's it's supercomplicated because you got so
many people involved.
It's not like one serial killerand you know that's the only
person who's the key player here.
You have Charles Manson at thehelm.
He's telling people what to doand he did not go out to the
(17:06):
Sharon Tate house.
But apparently he did go out tothe LaBianca house and I guess
he entered, but he didn't killanyone there.
He was just at the crime scene.
He didn't kill anyone there.
(17:28):
He was just at the crime sceneand Leslie Van Houten, who was
one of his followers she was notat the Sharon Tate house but
they wanted her to be involved.
Somehow he wanted all thesefollowers to be involved
directly, like with the youLaBianca in the back like 16
times.
But she may have already beendead at that point and so it's
unclear for Leslie Van Houten.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
You know if she actually committed murder or if
she just helped to desecrate abody after it was already dead.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
But she wanted to participate some way because
these Manson family members werestarting to feel left out, the
ones who were not part of thesekillings, and so she
participated and she spent therest of her life in jail.
In fact, she was just let out.
Within this past year Herparole came up again and this
(18:08):
time they let her out.
So she's living somewhere inCalifornia.
I believe she's like 70something years old in
California.
I believe she's, like you know,70 something years old.
But pretty much everyoneinvolved in this case, you know,
they served some kind of jailtime and, of course, charles
Manson went to prison for therest of his life until he died.
I can't remember what year hedied, I don't know if you know
(18:30):
that off the top of your head,but he died in prison a few
years ago, you know.
But he died in prison a fewyears ago.
You know, in the aftermath ofit, los Angeles, in fact all of
California, was terrifiedbecause you have what looked
like random killings and reallygory, brutal killings, and so,
(19:02):
you know, people were out buyinglocks and alarms in record
numbers around Los Angeles, andthose two murders were
back-to-back in August ofwhatever year that was 1969.
So everyone was on high alertand nobody knew who was doing it
.
Was it one person or a couple?
Was it a cult?
I don't think people thought atthe beginning, oh, this is a
cult, because that's such astrange thing, until everything
ultimately came out.
And then you had the infamoustrials with Charles Manson I
(19:23):
don't know if you want to talk alittle bit about that Like what
happened there with the girlswho would come to the courtroom
every day.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
For me it just kind of showed that Charles Manson
had no remorse for what he didwhatsoever.
And it almost just kind ofshowed that Charles Manson had
no remorse for what he didwhatsoever and it almost just
kind of showed how sick hisfollowing was.
Because here he is on trial andthese females would show up
support him wearing theseoutfits.
And at one point Charles Mansonshaved his head.
There was a big fat X on it,then later kind of turned into a
(19:52):
swastika and then these girlsshowed up with the X on it.
So it was like even all of whathe was going through, his
followers still remainsupportive and it kind of
attract this attention of allthese different females who
still wanted his attention in away to come out and support him.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You know, anytime a cult leader is trying to manage
a group of people, there's asense of control, or you know
loss of control, or you knowloss of control and he had
control at one point.
He could basically tell themwhat to do, and they would
always listen.
And then, as time went on, hewas starting to lose control a
little bit.
They were starting to doubt theyou know, his authority and his
um, his, his skills, hisabilities and so, and he would
(20:34):
tell people you know, theoutside, anywhere, anywhere
outside of this community, isjust evil.
These people are terrible.
And they would go down, theywould take these trips into town
from the spawn ranch where theylived, and they would see that
there are people like families,having ice cream and picnics and
playing Frisbee.
And so he started to lose alittle bit of control there,
(20:56):
because his followers saw thisand they're like this doesn't
look too bad, the sun's out andpeople are laughing and eating
ice cream how bad is the world?
And so he realized he had tostep it up a notch.
And so that's when he reallysuggested okay, we've got to go
out.
And do you know, death to pigsand helter skelter.
And that's when the Sharon Tatemurders took place and that's
(21:18):
so typical for cult leadersbecause they need to isolate
their community, eitherphysically or online or
everything.
They don't want cult memberstalking to outside family
members.
You know, if they have a youknow a brother on the outside or
a dad, you're not allowed totalk with them because of course
their family's going to sayyou're in a cult, this is nuts,
(21:41):
we need to get you out.
So he tried to cut off allcommunication.
But every once in a whilesomebody would get out and
they'd reconnect with theirfamily and he would go to great
lengths to try to get them tocome back.
And it was usually fear, it wasterror, and so he would go to
great lengths to try to get themto come back.
And it was usually fear, it wasterror.
And so he would employ some ofthe male followers to go out and
(22:01):
bring the girls back who weretrying to leave.
And he basically said to theseguys just threaten them right,
threaten their lives or say I'mgoing to kill your family if you
don't come back with us.
And that's when you really knowyou're in a cult, if you know
how to leave.
And people threaten your familyif you don't if you don't come
back with us.
And that's when you really knowyou're in a cult, if you know
how to leave and people threatenyour family.
But that was just a basicstrategy that he used all the
(22:21):
time, but he relied on otherpeople to do that.
You know, he was never the oneto say I'm gonna kill you.
Uh, he was always, you know,tried to be like positive and
all spiritual and everything.
But he had like text and theseother guys go and do the, do the
dirty work.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
He has a laser pointer in one hand and a double
shot of espresso in the other.
This can only mean one thingyou are listening to Kevin
Bennett is.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Snarling.
He seems like somebody who wasmore comfortable in prison,
honestly, than on the outsideand by all accounts he's been a
model prisoner even before thecult and he was in and out of
prison.
He was very well behaved and Ithink on some level he liked the
(23:16):
structure of prison and as muchas he liked to talk about
freedom and the ability to doeverything that he wants to do.
I think he felt comfortable inthat system.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Well, which is why, when I kind of saw that as well,
I thought about his cult in alittle bit, just because, like
how you said, when all of thesepeople would go out, once he
lost control, I felt like he nolonger had structure, and that's
all I felt like he wanted inhis life was some form of
structure, something that hecould go back to every day and
it would be the same throughout,because when he was growing up
(23:48):
it wasn't the same for him,which is why I think he enjoyed
being incarcerated, because heknew that he would wake up at a
certain time every day and hislife would be the exact same no
matter what, versus theuncertainty of is my mom going
to be home today, is my momgoing to be out drinking again,
you know, or am I going to be inthis home or am I going to run
away?
(24:10):
And stableness.
That I think that's why heenjoys being in prison, because
it's finally a sense of stable,stability and being able to have
structure and control and justa life that doesn't just seem
like it's going to change whenthe wind blows.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Right, Right, I agree .
And there's a.
I don't know if you've ever beento Moundsville state
penitentiary which is just downthe road from here, a couple
hours in west virginia.
It's an old penitentiary that'snow closed but we used to go
out there with the psychologyclub and go on these overnight
trips to the prison and it'sit's scary and everything, but
(24:47):
they give you a history lessonand they and they, they walk you
around and show you all theprison cells and talk about
various inmates that have beenkilled there.
And then you can go into themuseum they have and there's a
letter on the wall behind a likea glass case, and it's a letter
that Charles Manson wrote tothe warden of the prison because
his mom was at Moundsvillestate penitentiary for many
(25:10):
years and so his mom was in andout of prison.
He was in and out of prison andat one point he wanted to be in
the same prison with his mom,was in and out of prison.
He was in a prison and at onepoint he wanted to be in the
same prison with his mom.
So he wrote a letter asking thewarden you know, can I be
transferred from my prison overto be with my mom in moundsville
?
And of course that was justrejected.
But they kept the letter and ithas his actual handwriting.
He wrote like like a little kid.
(25:31):
It's like little kid writing,but it's, it's.
It's something to see an actualpiece of paper that he, you
know he wrote it.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
He wrote a letter which is on that paper, which
kind of brings me back to thethe part we talked about earlier
where you said is it hisupbringing or is it something in
his brain?
And I do really feel like it washis upbringing because he just
wanted a family, which is why Ifeel like he started his own
family and he knew that andwhich is why I felt like it kind
of became a cult, because hedidn't want those people to
(25:59):
leave, like his his mom left, orhe didn't want those people to
leave Like he never knew his dad.
He wanted to have those peoplestay so they would always be in
his life and he'd always havethem around him, which is why I
really do feel like if he wouldhave had a more stable
upbringing and it wasn't filledwith neglect and trauma of not
having a mother for basicallyyour whole time of in those
(26:21):
crucial years of growing up andhaving that sense of nourishment
and development, then he mightnot have developed into the guy
he was.
He just wanted the affectionand the attachment and for
someone to love him just asequally as he wanted to love
back.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Well, I'm glad you addressed that because I wanted
to ask you that.
I mean what?
You know what?
What turned him into the personthat he became?
Was it something he was bornwith?
Was it his terrible childhoodCause he, yeah, it was not a
good childhood.
He basically had no mom, he hadno dad.
I think there was a sense ofabandonment that he had.
And he was, at the same time,he was fairly smart as a kid and
(27:00):
he was socially skilled.
I mean, he's a great talker,he's a gifted speaker, like a
bullshit artist basically, buthe's capable.
You know, some people are justreally quiet and they don't ever
say anything, but he would talkall the time.
He's quite confident in hisspeaking ability.
That was his strength.
It wasn't physical strength, itwas his gift to manipulate
(27:20):
people, to read people.
He was able to read people'sminds and their emotions and
figure out what they wanted, andthen he figured out a way to
deliver that, or at leastconvince them that he was
delivering.
That, I should say so.
Could there be another CharlesManson?
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (27:39):
I don't think so.
It's kind of hard to be whoCharles Manson was, and the
reason I say that is because hemade a name for himself and he's
still continuing to make a namefor himself years later and
it's still baffling to peopleabout how all of this took place
.
So, in order for there to beanother and I and the reason I
(28:00):
say that too is because thehallucinogenics and all of that
were very big back then so itwas much easier to persuade
someone when they're under thatthat spell that you kind of need
them to, to get them to do whatyou need to do.
And I'm not saying they're asbig now, but I really don't feel
like there is as used now asthey were back then.
(28:21):
And then the talk about cultsall the time.
I think a lot of those peoplewere very ignorant to the fact
that they were in a cult andthey just saw it as a community,
as a sense of belonging.
So now that I feel like cultsare touched on a little bit more
, hallucinogenics are touched ona little bit more, everything
is just kind of being more awareand brought out into the open.
(28:42):
It's harder to replicatereplicate what he did because
he's no longer appealing toignorance.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Let's talk about the drugs for a second and then just
cults in general.
But he utilized hallucinogenicdrugs to gain control over his
people, his followers, and fromwhat I've read, he didn't really
use a lot of the drugs himself.
He would take a real small doseof something but give, like the
(29:11):
big doses to everyone else sothat he was always in control
and they were off in thathallucinogenic fantasy land,
listening to him then talk, thenhe would just preach while they
were high on acid or whateverdrugs they were taking.
So he really used that to hisadvantage and I I wouldn't
describe him as a user who wasalways high and out of control.
(29:35):
He was the opposite.
He was sober for the most part,um, so he used that effectively
, but that by itself wasn't whyhe was successful, you know,
because anyone could try to givepeople drugs.
It doesn't mean they're goingto have a successful cult, so.
But he used that as a tool.
And then he used his sort ofnatural abilities to read people
(29:55):
and feed them what they want.
He was even.
He even used really, reallybasic persuasion techniques that
come right out of the AndrewCarnegie or sorry, the Dale
Carnegie school of persuasion,and there was a book that was
written way back in the 1930scalled how to win friends and
(30:15):
influence people, and it wasdesigned for business people
like salespeople to establishrapport and then get them to buy
your product or service.
Well, he read that and reallyliked those things, but he
didn't use them for business.
He applied them to buy yourproduct or service.
Well, he read that and reallyliked those things, but he
didn't use them for business.
He applied them to the cult.
But some of those techniquesare just everyday, ordinary
things.
There's nothing really magicalabout what he was doing.
(30:36):
He would just try to get peopleto say yes early on in a
conversation.
You know that's like persuasion101 or sales 101.
And so let's talk about cultsin general.
No, I've said this before.
Nobody wakes up and says, well,I'm going to join a cult today,
right, because why would anyonedo that?
(30:57):
Even people that are in cults,they don't say I'm in a cult.
They say I found my community,like you said, the sense of
belonging, and so an effectivecult leader never uses the term
cult.
They don't recruit people andsay, would you like to join my
cult, because everyone would sayno.
They say I have the answersthat you're looking for right
and we will protect you and loveyou and take care of you, and
(31:20):
so there's a feeling that I'mgoing, I'm entering into this
group that's going to love me,and nobody else has loved me.
So this is a great place to be.
An outside observer would lookin and go.
This is a cult.
But people on the inside justgo.
These are my people, this is mycommunity, and Manson was
(31:42):
really skilled at doing that,walking that fine line between
hey, this is a cult, do what Isay, or versus.
You know, I'm letting you befree.
That's what I'm giving you isfreedom, right, you're allowed
to have your own thoughts here.
That's what I'm all about.
But it wasn't.
It was all about himcontrolling them, but he told
them you're free here.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
I feel like you hit it right, right on the mark.
He in a way had them thinking,yes, this is what I can do for
you, but I felt like it was onthe terms of what you're also
going to do for me, and he kindof kept that wrapped around as
long as you're helping me, aslong as you're scratching my
back, I can scratch yours.
And they enjoyed that.
(32:19):
So that's where I felt likethat cult part kind of came from
.
And, like you mentioned, no oneever just says, yes, this is my
cult, but that's what he calledit his family.
And they lived together as asense of community and their own
little parts on the ranch, andso they had their own family,
they had their own community,and that's what it looked like
(32:41):
to them.
It didn't look like anythingmore because they didn't see it
as anything more.
And I think they were blindedby everything that was going on
in their outside world, that itwas kind of blinding them from
seeing what was truly happening.
And I feel like that's whathappens to most people they
don't realize they're in oneuntil they're already in one,
because they're trying to pushout all the other stuff and
accept what's being brought tothem.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, and family sounds a lot better than cult.
So, yeah, using the word family, I mean, that's something,
that's a word that we all like.
So that's what he used thefamily.
This is our family, the Mansonfamily.
And then, finally, I've beenasking everyone about their case
studies.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Why did you pick this one as opposed to all the
others that you could haveselected.
So when you had your class, youhad mentioned the Once Upon a
Time in Hollywood movie and Iwent to watch that movie and
something about the way it wasdone kind of intrigued me a
little bit more about CharlesManson, because it was almost
like the reverse of everythingthat happened.
That kind of made me want tolearn, okay, what really truly
(33:45):
happened.
Why did he do what he did?
Charles manson never laid a handon anyone, he never
participated in any of thekillings but yet somehow is
responsible for all the killingsand orchestrated them in a way
to where it was like his namewasn't attached to it until it
was and until all of thesepeople kind of came out and said
, yes, this is, this is why Idid what I did, and I didn't
(34:07):
know what I was doing becauseCharles Manson had me doing this
and I didn't know that it was a.
So it like everything that kindof just took place.
It was everything about CharlesManson was a mystery, and I
guess I just kind of wanted tosolve it a little bit more, at
least try and find out a littlebit more of why he was who he
was and why these people were soattached to him in order to do
(34:28):
what?
To do what they did, becauseI've always said I couldn't kill
for someone else.
But yet he had a hundred peoplewilling to do what he like,
willing to do these killings,and four main people that would
bend at his will and need,especially Tex Watson, who was
his right hand man and, ifCharles said it, he was the
first one to go do it and wouldorchestrate people to join him
to do it.
(34:48):
So I just felt like I didn'twant to learn from him, but I
wanted to learn more about him.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
You know and let me follow up on that briefly,
because, oh, you mentioned OnceUpon a Time in Hollywood and
that's funny that that was kindof your entrance into Charles
Manson.
Is that right?
Like you didn't know much abouthim.
Then you watch that movie and Ilove that movie because I've
always liked Quentin Tarantinoand I've always been interested
in the Manson case.
(35:15):
And then when that movie cameout I thought it was so original
because it's an alternateending, right?
Speaker 3 (35:21):
The ending is not what actually happened.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
That worries me a little bit, that people watch
that and they think, oh, that'swhat happened.
But no, that's the fun part ofthe movie For someone like me
that's been studying CharlesManson for years.
Then you go, oh yes, it wouldhave been so much better if it
turned out this way.
Right, but it's this nice blendof the story it's played out in
history and then the ending isjust what if?
(35:45):
What if this happened instead?
Um, but I'm just wondering.
I have my own what ifs and thatis uh, it's quite possible that
manson and the family wouldhave never been caught or
connected with those murders.
But somebody talked in prison.
It was one of his femalefollowers was yeah, susan atkins
.
(36:05):
she was arrested on some otherunrelated charge and then she
was talking to somebody inprison saying, oh yeah, that was
the Manson family that did theTate murders.
And had she not said that, Idon't know if they ever would
have connected those murderswith this group of I don't even
want to call them hippies thatare living out in the Spahn
Ranch.
I don't know.
Or it would have taken longer,certainly, to make the
(36:27):
connection.
They probably would have killedmore people before they were
caught.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
I definitely think that more people would have
ended up dying.
But Susan Atkins was talking toher cellmate at the time and I
think she wanted thiscredibility of, yes, I'm a
killer, I'm a murderer, and ifyou get in my way you'll end up
dead too.
And I think that was kind ofher putting her foot down,
trying to make herself seem morethan what she was and in turn
(36:51):
got everyone else caught up inthe process.
But I don't even think that washer true goal.
I think that she just wanted tolive up to the standard that
she wasn't, so that while shewas incarcerated bad things
didn't happen to her All right.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
What else can we say about Charles Manson?
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Charles Manson was a man who, till this day, even
though he is dead, I don't thinkhe knew the gravity of what he
did, or if he knew why he wasdoing it.
I don't even think he knew thetrue reason for it.
I think that he just wantedattachment, he wanted a sense of
purpose, he wanted to hurtpeople who had what he was
(37:29):
missing, and I think that's moreso of where it came from.
But Charles Manson, in my eyes,isn't someone who was born a
killer, wasn't someone who hadthis brain defect that made him
into one.
But I think it's more so of histrauma in his early life and
those developmental years thatmade him into one.
But I think it's more so of histrauma in his early life, in
those developmental years thatmade him into the person he
(37:50):
became so he was a product ofhis terrible environment.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
I tend to agree with that.
I mean, there are some serialkillers where you look at them
and you go well, there's clearlysomething going on with their
brain and they had traumaticbrain injuries when they were
younger and uh.
And then there's others whereyou go, wow, it's just one
traumatic event after another intheir early years and you go
well, nobody could come out ofthat and be normal, and I think
(38:15):
Manson fits into that category.
Is there any one thing thatcould have prevented all this?
Like, if something happened toCharles Manson different than
what he actually experienced,would it have changed?
I think so the trajectory ofthis terrible history.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
I think even if he just had his mother in his life,
who was stable and who wouldhave raised him, even if she was
a single mother and his fatherwasn't present, I just think he
needed some form of parentalguidance and just someone to
love him and make him feel asevery human should feel, and you
know how that there's like thatMaslow hierarchy of needs.
(38:52):
His needs weren't met and Ifeel like love is kind of one of
those basic needs that you doneed and his basic needs weren't
met, which led him to becomewho he was.
And I think that even if itwasn't his mom, but someone in
his family, whether it be agrandma, grandfather, just
someone that could have raisedhim and shown him that affection
(39:14):
that he was craving, I thinkthat it would have had a
different impact.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
You know, it's really interesting that you mentioned
Maslow's hierarchy, because Ithink I don't know if Manson was
aware of it, but even if he wasnot aware of it he seemed to
make use of it, because at thebase of the pyramid you have
physical needs, right, basicbiological needs and safety,
food, water, those things.
And as you move up the pyramidit turns more social.
(39:40):
So you have things like loveand sense of belonging that are
up on the hierarchy and thoseare things that he talked about
all the time.
He talked about love because hesaid he preached love and the
cult is all about belonging andcreating a sense of belonging.
And then, at the very top ofthe pyramid, you have
self-actualization, which isyour intellectual and emotional
(40:03):
coming out and you're sayinghere's who I am, who I want to
be, and so you have this kind oflong-term vision of yourself
and how you fit into yourcommunity and you're able to
look back in the past and makeuse of that information to
inform your future.
So it's this grand theory.
I don't think he was very muchinto the whole
self-actualization, but the loveand the sense of belonging
(40:25):
parts, and the physical andthose safety needs and
biological needs I think he wasaware of those.
So I guess the point I'm makingis that he was aware of this
pyramid and took full advantageof it, because he used some of
those ideas to manipulate hisfollowers.
(40:45):
Aliyah, thanks for talkingabout Charles Manson.
Have a great day.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Thank you.
This podcast was recorded andedited by Kevin Bennett in the
beautiful foothills of westernPennsylvania.
You can find Kevin on Twitterat KevinBennettPhD.
For email, Facebook and othercontact info, head over to
Kevin-Bennettcom.
That's Kevin Bennett, with adash in between.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
If you are interested in more stories about
psychology, science and popculture, check out my writing
over at Psychology Today.
Just Google Kevin Bennett,Psychology Today.
Thanks for listening and pleaseremember to be good, Be good.
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