Bonus Episode: In Conversation with Rebecca Caine

In this special bonus episode, Robyn and Julie are joined by soprano Rebecca Caine, a delightful storyteller and much-loved performer who has uniquely divided her career between opera and musical theatre. In this candid chat, Rebecca recounts colourful stories from the stage, thoughts on maturing within the performing arts industry, and shares what she is looking forward to most on the other side of the global pandemic.

Episode Transcript

Robyn Grant-Moran (00:18):
I'm Robyn Grant-Moran

Julie McIsaac (00:19):
and I'm Julie McIsaac.

Robyn Grant-Moran (00:22):
And welcome to a very special bonus episode
of Key Change!

Julie McIsaac (00:26):
Last week on the podcast
audience mailbag to answer youropera questions. And, to help us
out, we invited some friendsfrom across the industry to
weigh in and share their storiesand perspectives.

Robyn Grant-Moran (00:38):
One of our guests was soprano Rebecca
Caine. Because she was Canada'sfirst Christine and the "Phantom
of the Opera," we reached out toher to get her thoughts on why
the production is considered amusical and not an opera. But
our conversation stretched waybeyond the Phantom.

Julie McIsaac (00:54):
Yeah, we had such a great time chatting with her!
There were lots of good storiesand a lot of laughter, so, it
just didn't feel right to keepall that insight and delight to
ourselves. So, we thought wewould share it with all of you

in this Bonus Episode (01:05):
In Conversation with Rebecca Caine.
Is there anything particular toPhantom of the Opera, Rebecca,
in the sense that have peopleasked you over the years, "Now,
is it an opera? Is it a musical?
How do you classify it? How doyou navigate that crossover in

(01:28):
that boundary?"

Rebecca Caine (01:32):
It's difficult, isn't it? Because you see, I
would say, Sweeney Todd isprobably the finest opera of the
second half of the 20th century;"I wouldn't place Phantom in
that category," she saidpointedly. I guess if you do it
in an opera house and it startsbeing worked into the
rep[ertory], you can consider itan opera. As far as I'm
concerned, you know, I wasalways a very old-fashioned

(01:53):
legit musical theatre singer; Isang exactly the same way.
Stylistically, you change thingsa little but then you wouldn't
see [Claudio] Monteverdi thesame way as you would sing
Richard Strauss, would you? So,for me, it was all singing and
acting, and there's a wonderfulquote, Gershwin and Alban Berg
both of them very close to myheart, actually; I'm a big 20th

(02:14):
century girl and he said toBerg something about, you know,
"Is this good enough?" and AlbanBerg said, "Good music is good
music." So, I'm a great believerin that.

Julie McIsaac (02:24):
Now, Rebecca, in preparing for this episode, we
mentioned to Perryn Leech so,our new COC General Director
that we'd be chatting with you,and it turns out there's a bit
of a small opera worldconnection in there, and that he
was a lighting technician atGlyndebourne around the same
time, we believe, that you werethere and where you made your
premiere Glyndebourne in TheCoronation of Poppaea.

Rebecca Caine (02:45):
Oh, my god! Yes, I was Amore and I was up on a
shelf all night, [it] was aPeter Hall production, and then
I had my little tiny aria and Iremember the operator (And I
was pulled up on a wire, I flew,the agony! I'd always wanted to
fly; I didn't realize howpainful it was.) And the
operator was drunk one nighthe flew me into the wall.

(03:05):
Richard Bradshaw conducted thatactually! Yeah, so, I'd been in
the chorus the year before andthat's when Trevor Nunn had seen
me I'd already done a fewmusicals for Cameron Mackintosh

(03:26):
but I wanted to be an operasinger, and everybody said you
can't do both. So, I turned down"West Side Story" and went and
sang in the chorus ofGlyndebourne where I was sighted
by one Trevor Nunn, and withouteven really asking, I was washed
and brought to his tent at theRoyal Shakespeare Company and
ended up in a musical called LesMisrables, and that became
that! So, yeah, Glyndebourne wasa big thing. That's amazing, how

(03:49):
wonderful! The first year I wasthere I sang in the chorus of
"Arabella" and I then I wentinto Les Mis[erables], and then
they asked me back to do myPoppea debut I think because
Trevor had taken such aninterest in me and I had a nice
pair of legs on me as well,which was good for that role,
they asked me back. So, thatsummer I spent my time commuting

(04:10):
between playing Cosette in LesMisrables and Amore in
Glyndebourne. So, I was singingopera and musicals at the same
time, and I remember there wereweeks of time I didn't get a day
off because sometimes we wouldhave Sunday performances. That
was the summer of '86 so, 85was my chorister year, and then
86, and then my opera careertook off after that thanks to

(04:30):
the Canadian Opera Company.

Robyn Grant-Moran (04:33):
Phantom was already a big hit by the time it
arrived in Toronto. Did youanticipate what a lasting legacy
it would have?

Rebecca Caine (04:41):
No! You know, all these things you now know with
the gift of hindsight it'slike when people ask me what it
was like to make Les Mis. Well,we didn't realize it would be a
musical that would then run for35 years, you know. And, so, it
having already done Phantom inLondon, I realized that it was
going to be a big hit, and itwas beautiful and glamorous and

(05:05):
you know, it'd been very wellsold in Toronto. But it's only
years later when people come toyou and they say, "I saw you and
I was a kid at the stage doorand you took me backstage for a
backstage tour," or "I used todraw your costumes, so I became
a costume designer," or, youknow, "I used to sing along with
the recording in my bedroom andthen I became Christine in the

(05:28):
'bus and truck' tour and went onto play Christine on Broadway."
So, you hear all these thingsmuch later but, you know, at the
time, you're just doing the joband, frankly, with that job, I
was just trying to, you know,stay healthy, stay upright and
get through singing sixperformances a week of [Andrew]
Lloyd Webber.

Julie McIsaac (05:48):
And we know, Rebecca, that you've also
appeared in many COCproductions: "Lulu," "[The]
Cunning Little Vixen," Pamina in"The Magic Flute," Despina in
"Cos [fan tutte]," and Micalain "Carmen." And of these, we're

curious (05:59):
is there a standout role or a particular behind the
scenes memory that comes tomind?

Rebecca Caine (06:05):
Well, I mean, I think because Brian Dickey had
left Glyndebourne and wasrunning the COC, I had, you
know, fond dreams because I keptbeing pulled back into musicals;
I'd been a young opera singerand I had done a couple of
musicals and then gone toGlyndebourne, and I was told
that you couldn't do both andthen I was pulled into Phantom.
And, you know, I never reallytrained: I left the Guildhall

(06:30):
[School of Music and Drama] at19 and, so, I just took the work
that came along but my heart wasalways in opera. So, when I went
to the COC, I had this littledream that maybe they might ask
me to do something, but in myhead, it was going to be
something like Barbarina in "TheMarriage of Figaro;" it was
going to be a tiny little partfor which I would be incredibly

(06:50):
grateful to be doing. So, when Igot a letter in my post at the
Pantages [Theatre] or the EdMirvish [Theatre], as it now is
saying, "Would I considertaking on the role of Lulu?" I
had to sit down because I can'tthink of anybody that would have
taken such a chance on me. And Iremember that I went along to

(07:13):
the press launch of that season,and I sat down to (Who was the
man who was the critic at The[Toronto] Star for years and
years?) William Littler, that'sright. I sat down next to him
and he turned to me and he said,"I expect you'd like to sing
here one day." And I said, "Yes,well, you know, maybe I will!"
And then they handed out thepress release and he flipped the

(07:36):
page everybody flipped thepage over and it said,
"Rebecca Caine, Lulu," and therewas this audible intake of
breath because no one thought Icould do it, no one thought I
could do it. And I knew I hadthe high notes, and I trusted
Brian, who was a very good judgeof voices, and I had a year and

(07:56):
a half to learn it. And, so,it's basically what kept me

sane (08:18):
singing six shows a week of Christine [in Phantom]. In
some ways, it's my greatestacting role because I was having
to play a woman so naive thatshe would take singing lessons
from somebody standing behind amirror in her dressing room, and
then follow this perfect creepdown to a damp basement, you
know. I mean, at heart, I'm muchmore of a Mrs. Lovett [in
Sweeney Todd], so, this is thegreat acting role that I was
doing. But, you know, it's veryhard to extract the juice [for]

(08:43):
six performances a week, but itwas my job and I did it. So, I
had this fantastic thing that,once a week, I would go to the
Canadian Opera Company and Iwould work on Lulu, and I did
this for a year and a half. AndI love that kind of music, I
live for it! So, for me, it keptme sane: I'd never done a role
in an original language so,that was my first time singing a

(09:07):
major role in an originallanguage, never done any role in
an original language; I'd onlyever sung opera in English
before; I'd never sung a hugemajor role like that; and I'd
never signed a major role with amajor opera company. So, I mean,
it couldn't have been more inthe deep end and, all the while,
while doing, you know, this bigrole and trying to keep myself
sane. So, it was wonderful! AndI remember the company was so

(09:30):
kind to me, and the Ensemble[Studio] kids would always be
hanging around in the sofasoutside my practice room, and
they really had every reason tohate my guts, you know, because
I'd come in with very littleexperience and I was doing this
incredible role, but I ended upfeeling part of them I ended
up feeling like I had been partI could cry talking about it!

(09:51):
People like Wendy Nielsen, youknow, and they became my friends
and they will support I thinkonce they hung outside the
dressing room door and theyrealized how hard I worked and
that I had the chops to do it,they were hugely supportive. And
the other one was [The CunningLittle] Vixen, which meant a
huge amount to me because it wasthe Maurice Sendak production

(10:13):
and I had been the first I wasgonna say the first cast of
["Where the Wild Things Are"],but actually, I don't mean the
opera; I mean that I was thatage that I read Where the Wild
Things Are as a little girl andI was very much a wild thing,
and that's very much a NorthAmerican production, with
raccoons and just the wholephysicality of it all. So, to
me, I think the Vixen was me ina way I loved playing that

(10:37):
role! And my father died duringrehearsals. And I did it the
following summer in Italy aswell, so that means a huge
amount to me. The company was sosupportive for me because I had
to get on that stage in a giantfox costume. I mean, it shows
the, kind of, ridiculousness ofwhat we do for a living because
I went down to Philadelphia[University of Pennsylvania
Hospital] in Philadelphia Isaw my mom and sister for a

(11:00):
couple of days, and then got onthe plane, and came back, walked
into rehearsal hall, but put onmy fake tail, got on my hands
and knees and began biting thethighs of the women of the
chorus, pretending they werechickens. I mean, you know,
there's nothing going to takeyou out of tragedy and losing
your dad That was a very roughjob. So, Vixen meant a lot to me

(11:21):
and all of them! I lovesinging at the COC, I was very,
very proud to be a member of thecompany, they were very good
times.

Robyn Grant-Moran (11:28):
So, you've spoken about the challenges of
being cast as a certain type ofsinger of a certain age. What
would you like to see theindustry embrace in terms of how
roles and casting are reimaginedfor the stage?

Rebecca Caine (11:43):
I'm a musical theatre performer and also an
opera singer, and I'm also astraight actress now I've also
started doing plays. I'mterrified I'm going to get a
television or a film job becauseI just feel like I can't cope
with another genre at this pointin my life. So, obviously, being
a light lyric soprano, we're thefirst to walk the plank, which

(12:06):
is heartbreaking because youjust get to 40 and, suddenly,
the jobs start to dry up. But insome ways, I remember being
about 46 and going to NewZealand Opera to do [The Elixir
of Love], and I got there and he[Daniel Slater] said to me,
"Right, I've set it in NapaValley High School in 1985, and
you're the prom queen." And Ithought, "Oh, I was 25 in 1985.

(12:28):
So, we're now playing back to atime that I actually lived in,
and I'm playing younger than Iwas when I actually existed
during this period of time," andit did my head in. Apart from
the fact that at 45 you don'twant to be playing an
18-year-old prom queen youwant to be playing a complicated
45-year-old woman but thisvoice is considered to be a

(12:49):
young person's voice, and itstill sounds like an ingenue

voice. And it was interesting (12:53):
I did a musical a few years ago
and they decided it was [a]beautiful, beautiful musical
and they decided after the firstproduction that my voice didn't
match the character, and I said,"But I'm playing a refined,
elegant woman of a certain ageand I am a refined elegant woman
of a certain age, and I soundlike this." So, why is there

(13:15):
this idea that, as you getolder, your voice has to get
lower and it gets harsher? Imean, I faked my way through
Katisha [in "The Mikado"], whichis a great role you know,
chewing the scenery with musicaltheatre people around me, so,
their voices are lighter and Ido Mother Abbess in ["The Sound
of Music"], which is hilariousbecause, you know, if only
they'd given me some cleavageand some lipstick, it would be

(13:36):
fine; I just can't bear thecostume. It's a wonderful role
and I keep coming back to itbecause it's one of the few
things that sopranos can do atmy age in in musical theatre.
But I don't really think on theright voice for it, in some
ways. It's very tricky. Youknow, I did a wonderful piece
called "Abomination" for theBelfast Ensemble about a

(13:59):
year-and-a-half ago, and it waswritten by a composer I've been
working for for years, ConorMitchell, he's brilliant, and it
sounds weird, but it was aboutNorthern Irish politics and this
politician who hatedhomosexuality and was caught out
having an affair with a16-year-old boy. And it was this
stonking roll that was writtenfor me about a woman my age who

(14:21):
sounded like me! And it wasgoing to be a huge it was a
huge hit, and we were going totake everywhere: it was coming
to the South Bank in London, itwas going to go to all the
festivals and, boom, thepandemic happened. So, yeah,
it's difficult but I, sort of,feel like as long as I can still
stand and I can still sing and Ican still add and having been

(14:42):
lucky enough to always have avaried career from the age of 19
I will just continue to showup and do what I can. I'm about
to do a lovely livestream of theDave Malloy musical Dave
Malloy wrote "Natasha, Pierre &The Great Comet [of 1812]" on
Broadway, and this is a piece Idid about a year-and-a half ago
about Rachmaninoff, and we'regoing to do a livestream of

(15:03):
that. So, although that's mainlyan acting role, I do a little
bit of the Vespers at one point,but it's mainly an acting role.
But yes, it's heartbreaking in away that just for, like, lyric
sopranos, just when you'regetting to really get on top of
your craft and you can't helpfeel that, in some ways, you've
failed in some way by aging,even though (You won't be able
to tell this on the podcast but,dear listeners, I look

(15:26):
fabulous!) You know, you can'thelp feeling that you've let
yourself down by aging. And Iwas talking to somebody who was
a wonderful Cherubino and Isaid, "You must miss that role,"
and she saidm "I don't want tobe playing a 14-year-old boy!"
And I didn't understand at thetime, but I do now, you know?

Julie McIsaac (15:46):
Well, and it's part of a conversation we've had
with other singers, too,Rebecca, around the sense of "I
exist. I am who I am in thefullness of who I am with the
voice that I have. So, why isn'tthat reflected on the stages and
the stories that we tell?" So,it's lovely to hear. like, this
project Abomination, of projectsand new roles that are being
created so that we can show upin the fullness of who we are on
stage, and we'll be keeping ourears and eyes out for that

(16:08):
project. Is there anything elseany sort of pandemic musings
that have come to the fore,things you've been working on
that you'd like to share withus?

Rebecca Caine (16:15):
I think, like a lot of people, the first six
months, I found it verydifficult to sing, because every
time I opened my mouth, I justwanted to cry. So, I left it and
then I thought, "Come on," youknow, "You've got to sing at
this age. You will lose it." So,I went back to the Vaccai
exercises with the practicalItalian guide to singing I

(16:37):
don't know what the impracticalguide is, god forbid. But,
anyway, they're these littlesongs that he wrote and you
sing the intervals, and I gotback into it and then I was
booked to do the ChichesterFestival Theatre Christmas
concert [A Merry LittleChristmas Celebration], when we
were briefly open for socialdistance concerts, and that was
a very classy gig, and that waslivestreamed, so, I had to get

(16:58):
my chops up to do that. And thenabout the time that Biden got
voted in and Trump got voted outand I felt like I could stop
staring at the television andbeing on constant alert for, you
know, the rise of fascism andthe virus I realized that a
lot of sopranos were contactingI have a very lively presence on
social media and Twitter, and sopeople were contacting me and

(17:22):
saying, "Can you tell me how tosing this phrase or this
phrase," and I was singing intomy phone and trying to give
notes. And I had taught on amusical theatre course at the
[Trinity Laban Conservatoire ofMusic and Dance] here in my 40s
about the time when thingsreally flatlined for me, before
I reinvented and went back tobeing an actress again, and
going into musical theatreagain, because I had to

(17:43):
basically start from thebeginning again, and that took a
lot of energy, so I had someyears where nothing was
happening, and I taught forabout four years there. And I
thought, "This is silly," youknow. "I should not be giving
this away; I should be puttingit out." And now that's amazing
because it's something that thispandemic has brought us, which
is [to] democratize us in a waybecause I teach everybody from,

(18:06):
you know, young women who aretrained and could be singing the
roles that I used to dotomorrow. I decided I'd
specialize in legit musicaltheatre singing, old-school

legit (18:16):
so no belting, no mixing you know, the sound that I
like to hear, which we're losinga lot because everybody mixes
and belts, so we don't get thedifference between the different
voices like Maria [in The Soundof Music] and Anita [in West
Side Story] and the Rodgers andHammerstein you know, the
voice that has always, sort of,indicated virginity, this
purity, and I really wanted totry and get that back again. But

(18:37):
I also teach I have a blindwoman who works for Google in
California, I have a little girlwho sings in her dad's car
workshop to me once a week inAlabama, you know. And some of
these people, they don't want tobe singers but after half an
hour [or] an hour with me,theyve found their voice,
they've sung a little better,and they've done something

(19:00):
creative, and they've expressedthemselves for an hour and I can
see the joy that that bringsthem. It's very tiring because
you have to be even moreperformative when you're talking
to your screen, and particularlywith people who are amateurs
because you have to show themthe level of energy you need to
expend to really be a singer andto be this kind of legit singer.

(19:22):
So, I just started doing that inFebruary and, so, that's what
I'm doing basically with myafternoons now: I just teach all
afternoon. So, um, I didn't seemyself coming back to teaching
and I hope that I go back todoing more performing but, until
then, you know, it keeps me offthe sofa eating clairs and

(19:44):
watching boxsets, which is whatI was doing before.

Julie McIsaac (19:47):
Do you have a favorite from the Vaccai
songbook?

Rebecca Caine (19:50):
Oh, yeah! [Sings] I don't remember which one it is
[Sings more]. What is thatFifth [intervals]? I think it's
the Fifths. I love that one.
It's so pretty, it's so pretty.
I don't know what's aboutprobably about, you know, "I
have a trout that swam upstreamand got eaten by an eagle," or
something like that, I don'tknow. I'm not connecting to the

(20:10):
text, which is very naughty ofme.

Robyn Grant-Moran (20:14):
So, we were wondering what you were really
looking forward to once this isall done?

Rebecca Caine (20:20):
I think I'll have to keep teaching. I quite like
showing young women that, youknow, you can be a strong,
mouthy, articulate, happy womanin her 60s and doing all this
stuff. So, I like that side ofthings very much, I like helping
people. What am I lookingforward to? I want to go to the

(20:42):
ballet, I really want to go tothe ballet, I love the ballet so
much, you know. It's where I cansit there and I can listen to
the music I could never do itin a million years, so, there's
not that brain going, "Oh, Icould do that better," or "Why
didn't I get that job?" or "Oh,maybe I should do more straight
acting" there's nothing likethat: I just sit there and I'm
just lost in wonder at whatthese people can do.

(21:20):
Karen Kane was one of the, sortof, few people outside the show
that I became really goodfriends with when I was in
Toronto and, you know, I've beendesperate to see the [Alexei]
Ratmansky "Romeo and Juliet"[that] the ballet do. So, yeah,
I want to do that. I'd love togo and go somewhere other than,
you know, my house, my fourwalls; I'd love to travel a bit.

(21:43):
I think we all feel that way,don't we, you know?

Robyn Grant-Moran (21:46):
What's the last show you got to see live?

Rebecca Caine (21:49):
"Madama Butterfly." With this amazing
Welsh soprano. I can't pronouncehis last name. Natalya Romaniw,
I think it is. She isphenomenal. She's the next
[Anna] Netrebko.

Julie McIsaac (22:03):
On any given Sunday morning, where would we
find you?

Rebecca Caine (22:06):
Um, probably on a yoga mat tied up like a pretzel.

Julie McIsaac (22:12):
What is the last show that you binge watched?

Rebecca Caine (22:16):
Oh, we've had a lot of binge watching. During
the clair period, first of allwe did "Mad Men" right from the
beginning to the end, which is awork of genius when you watch it
back to back, because he[Matthew Weiner] sets it up
right from the beginning all theway through all the themes,
absolutely incredible! Then wedid "Band of Brothers" and the
one that's set in the SouthPacific ["The Pacific"] which

(22:36):
was also deeply moving. So, yes,I mean, the last one: I mean,
you never stop binge watching,do you really, [for even] a
moment?

Robyn Grant-Moran (22:45):
Is there an artist or song in your music
collection that might surprisepeople?

Rebecca Caine (22:52):
Oh, yeah! I love that Eminem one you know, the
famous one? [Clip of "LoseYourself" plays] I would give
you my rendition but I don'tthink the world is ready! I've
got some really strange things.
I love the Talking Heads one,you know, the famous one. I love
that

Robyn Grant-Moran (23:13):
Oh, the "Once in a Lifetime"?

Rebecca Caine (23:13):
I've got some really, reallyYes! You know,

Julie McIsaac (23:14):
Love it! I've got some really strange
things in my iPod.

Rebecca Caine (23:21):
This is a bit crazy. Now you'll be going to
the knicker drawer next.

Julie McIsaac (23:26):
Our last one is a burning question from one of our

producers, actually (23:28):
so, you created the role of Cosette in
Les Mis, and we understand thatyour solo in the original was "I
Saw Him Once," which wasreplaced

Rebecca Caine (23:36):
Right.

Julie McIsaac (23:37):
with "In My Life" for the Broadway
production. So, if you had tochoose one: which one has your
heart of those two songs?
Well, absolutely, In My Life. Imean, because the other one is

(24:01):
not really a solo; it's the sametune as the trio ["Love Montage:
I Saw Him Once/In My Life/AHeart Full Of Love"]. So, what
that means in the U.K. is therole has now been reduced to
featured ensembles, so theydon't even pay her as a soloist.
The reason that was cutapparently was because it was
felt to be very like the lovetheme from the [Franco]
Zeffirelli "Romeo and Juliet"film, which I think is Nino

(24:21):
Rota. [Sings "I Saw Him Once" tothe melody of the "Romeo and
Juliet" theme] A little bit, butI just think they thought, "Oh,
she's a dreary character. Let'scut everything," and then the
role has been cut and cut andcut and cut and cut. Everybody
sings about all night, but it'sjust been made smaller and
smaller and smaller, you know,which is a shame but there you
go. I'm very fond of Les Mis,I'm very proud of something that

(24:45):
is, you know, whenever theyerect a barricade anywhere in
the world, it's sung and thatshow's very close to my heart.
Great. Well, thank you so much,Rebecca. We know we only reached
out to you a little while ago,and the fact that you were
available, and open to doingthis after a day of teaching, we
really appreciate it.

Rebecca Caine (25:02):
You just tell Toronto that I want to do
Sweeney Todd as Mrs. Lovett withmy old mate Russell Braun.
That's what I want to do.

Robyn Grant-Moran (25:10):
Yes, please!

Rebecca Caine (25:11):
That's what I'd like to come back to Toronto:
Russell Braun and me doingSweeney Todd. Because I'm much
more Mrs. Lovett than I was everChristine Daa.

Julie McIsaac (25:22):
Thank you

Rebecca Caine (25:23):
All right. Tons of love!

Robyn Grant-Moran (25:25):
Thanks so much, Rebecca.
We absolutely loved chattingwith Rebecca for our Mailbag
Episode and for a special bonusedition of Key Change.

Julie McIsaac (25:39):
Thanks for listening and stay tuned for the
first episode of our springseason on April 13, when we talk
opera and contemporary art withIcelandic artist Ragnar
Kjartansson, and Adelina Vlas ofthe Art Gallery of Ontario,

Robyn Grant-Moran (25:52):
You'll hear what a great time we had.

Julie McIsaac (26:01):
As a COC subscriber and member, your
continued support is vital as wecontinue to bring Opera
Everywhere. Learn more about theCOC's reimagined programming at
coc.ca.