April 13, 2021 • 59 mins
The worlds of opera and modern art collide in this lively discussion with Icelandic contemporary artist Ragnar Kjartansson and Adelina Vlas, Associate Curator of Contemporary Art at the Art Gallery of Ontario. Co-hosts Robyn Grant-Moran and Julie McIsaac discover how experiments in musical repetition and duration create freer experiences where audiences can explore works on their own terms.
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Julie McIsaac (00:00):
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to Key Change (00:00):
A COC Podcast, where we explore
everything about opera from afresh perspective.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:18):
We're your hosts, Robyn Grant-Moran
Julie McIsaac (00:20):
and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:23):
And welcome to Episode 12 of Key Change
our first podcast of the spring!Today we're looking at Opera and
Contemporary Art, and some ofthe projects where the two
collide and intersect.
Julie McIsaac (00:35):
Toronto, as a city, is a phenomenal cultural
hub. It's home to so manycreators and artistic
organizations, and somethingthat's been so great to see
especially during the pandemichas been the shared sense of
solidarity and partnership asall of us, in the arts and
culture sector, work to stayconnected to our art forms and
to our shared communities. Andby collaborating with one
(00:55):
another, I think we're alllearning that we're more alike
than we are different.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:59):
This episode is, kind of, a perfect example
of that. When we were thinkingabout the idea of opera and
contemporary art, the Icelandicartist Ragnar Kjartansson,
immediately came to mind.
Someone had mentioned thiswild-sounding installation that
he'd done called "Bliss." It'sbasically a two-minute excerpt
from the finale of Mozart's TheMarriage of Figaro, looped over
and over for 12 hours straight!
Julie McIsaac (01:24):
So, for anyone who thinks that opera's are long
leading to a potentially veryfrustrating or potentially
exquisite transformativeexperience, depending on your
perspective Ragnar's worktakes things to a whole new
level.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:36):
In doing our research, we realized that
Ragnar actually has one of hisworks currently on display at
the Art Gallery of Ontario[AGO]. And this got us thinking,
"Here's the chance for us tolearn more about the world of
contemporary art, but also forart gallery fans to learn more
about opera." So, in addition tospeaking with Ragnar, we also
connected with Adelina Vlas,Associate Curator of
(01:57):
Contemporary Art.
Julie McIsaac (01:58):
We'll hear from Ragnar later in this episode
and you definitely don't want tomiss it; It's so fun and
Adelina is Associate Curator ofContemporary Art at the Art
Gallery of Ontario. Before that,she held curatorial positions at
the Philadelphia Museum of Artand the National Gallery of
Canada. She was involved inbringing the massively popular
"Infinity Mirrors" by YayoiKusama to Toronto in 2018. And
(02:20):
her area of specialty is postwarcontemporary art with a focus on
conceptual and time-based mediapractices.
Adelina, we're thrilled to haveyou here with us today and we're
really excited to talk to youabout your curatorial work. But,
(02:44):
just before we jump into that,we'd love to know: how has opera
been present or how did it firstcome into your life?
Adelina Vlas (02:51):
Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be
talking to you today and operais something that's been in my
life from a very young age. Igrew up in communist Romania in
the 80s, which was one of theharshest decades, under that
particular regime. And somehowthe censorship bureau thought
(03:11):
that opera was not subversive,so we were allowed to experience
it. So, it was one of the formsof music that I listened to
growing up and learned in schoolabout. So, someone like Giuseppe
Verdi was, you know, a householdname in Romania and we would
talk about his opera's as ifthey were, you know, our own
cultural background. So, yeah,it's something I grew up with
(03:36):
and I've experienced almost myentire life.
Julie McIsaac (03:40):
And I'm very curious
anything in particular thatstood out to you?
Adelina Vlas (03:45):
Well, the the large, kind of, ensemble, you
know, choir pieces were the mostdramatic ones. And I think that,
of course, if you thinkhistorically at the time, when
he was composing that music andthe political message, of
course, opera was nothing butworse, right? So, in a way, I
(04:08):
like to think about it ascheating the system a little
bit, right, as art always has amessage and the message might be
perceived differently in time,but, yeah, it's always there.
Robyn Grant-Moran (04:40):
So, Adelina, can you tell us more about the
role of a curator? What does anaverage day look like for you?
Adelina Vlas (04:46):
So, I am a curator of contemporary art and I want
to make that distinction becausecontemporary art means dealing
with living artists, or workingwith living artists and it's
very different than working withthe ones who have passed on. And
something that attracted me tothis particular area of work is
(05:09):
because I love working withliving art, and being part of
the moment I live in and beingpart of the conversations around
how the work is made, how thework is displayed. So, a typical
day in a large museum, like theArt Gallery of Ontario, might
communications with artists isone of them; on any given day, I
(05:30):
might be talking with an artistin Montreal, or Vancouver, or
Paris, or, you know, BuenosAires depending on what our
projects are; and communicationswith colleagues, and galleries,
and constant exchange it's areally active fields and,
internally, we meet to discusshow we realize our projects, how
(05:53):
we make acquisitions, how weremain relevant to current
conversations and to ourcommunity. So, I might be doing,
you know, visits to gallerieswhen that's allowed; I might be
on the phone; I might be in ameeting; I might be in a
gallery; I might be havingcoffee with a supporter it's
all happening!
Robyn Grant-Moran (06:13):
I'm wondering
changed what a day and curationlooks like?
Adelina Vlas (06:20):
It has and I'll use the example of an exhibition
that is currently installed inthe galleries. It opened in
October, it was originallyscheduled for April of 2020. So,
when we went in the firstlockdown, crates were arriving
with works from all over theworld, the artist is Haegue
(06:41):
Yang, the exhibition is calledEmergence. She's Korean but
based in Berlin and Seoul. Theexhibition, first of all, the
works have to stay in crates formonths until we were allowed to
get back into [the] building andopen them and install the
exhibition at a slower pace,accounting for the new health
protocols, and the artist wasnever able to come or any of her
(07:04):
assistants, and that's highlyunusual in contemporary art.
Julie McIsaac (07:08):
I was really drawn to what you were saying,
Adelina, about how you work withliving artists and how that's an
important distinction where someof your colleagues might be
working with artworks that havebeen created by people have come
before us,and people who havepassed, and what the corollaries
are in opera practice because alot of our grand works are
created by composers who are nolonger with us, but we have
contemporary creation happeningas well. Now your specialty at
(07:30):
the AGO, as we understand it, ispostwar contemporary art,
especially conceptual andtime-based media practices. Now,
the idea of a piece being"time-locked" certainly sets it
apart from a lot of other workin galleries. What do you think
that dimension adds for theviewer?
Adelina Vlas (07:46):
Duration is part of any artistic experience
can take a second, two seconds,a minute to look at a painting,
or you can take an hour to lookat a painting. So, you define
how long you want to spend witha work of art. I think
performative arts, like opera,have a different kind of
temporality and duration, andrequire a different kind of time
(08:07):
investment. But, as it appliesto contemporary art, we define
time-based media by the mediumitself. So, if it's a file
that's on a carrier, it needsplayback device, and they need a
display device, right? So, itcould be a USB, you need to plug
it into a computer and a drive,and then you need a projector.
(08:30):
So, those are the technicalterms that define time-based
media. It's really interestingbecause when artists turn to
technology it happened in the60s, right, when technology
became more easily available,and portable, and easy to use
and since, artists havestruggled themselves with "How
(08:50):
much can they ask of the viewer,especially in the museum
context" right? And we're verymuch aware of that demand on the
viewer to spend time with thework, that it's a predetermined
time, right? We usually put onour labels the duration [of the
piece], so visitors know like,"Okay, this if you want to
experience it from beginning tothe end is 30 minutes or is 15
(09:11):
minutes." And I think thatartists, at some point, figure
out that the ideal length islike 8-10 minutes. So, we
started seeing a lot of workunder 10 minutes. It's dependent
on the content, too, right. AndI think with we'll be talking
about Ragnar and, in his case,he's someone who has been
(09:32):
interested in duration in a veryparticular way, right? And I
think that what he's built intohis work from the beginning is
this repetition. So, repetitionis already part of the structure
he's working with. So, herepeats usually have a 1-2-3
minute musical segment again andagain, again, and sometimes, for
(09:54):
as long as an hour or more. Butthe idea is that you can walk
in, you can be there for a fewminutes, and you, kind of,
understand. And if you reallyget pulled into the work you can
spend as long as you want. Butthat repetition is almost like
the looping device; it connectsto the medium itself, when we
(10:16):
project something, it's alwayslooping.
Robyn Grant-Moran (10:18):
How does the role of narrative change between
a more traditional piece of artor even opera, and some of the
conceptual or time-based worksthat you specialize in?
Adelina Vlas (10:29):
Someone like Michael Snow, right, who is, you
know the subject of his filmsare film in film itself, and
it's extremely conceptual, andthere is no narrative, right?
It's completely broken down andtaken away from the medium. So,
(10:51):
yeah, it has to be in thecontext of each individual
practice. But narrative, again,if you think of a historic
painting or, you know,large-scale painting usually
involves some kind of narrative,and it's static, right? You have
to use your imagination toactivate that image, and that
(11:11):
scene, and create the narrativeor think of the narrative that
it belongs to. And I think thattime-based media or artists who
work with film and video use, ofcourse, a temporality as a way
of telling a story, and thereare artists who work in more of
a documentary style. But othersstill choose to just play with
(11:32):
the conventions of the mediumand temporality being one of
them to create a differentsense of narrative, or different
sense of experience altogether.
Julie McIsaac (11:40):
Are there particular movements or trends
in terms of narrative or doingaway with narrative that you're
particularly drawn to
Adelina Vlas (11:48):
Someone like Hito Steyerl, who's a German artist
who actually had an exhibitionat the AGO in 2019 called "This
Is the Future," is someone who'strained as a filmmaker and she's
a writer, and she's thinkingabout the medium but she's also
very much interested on how we,as subjects of 21st century, are
(12:10):
bombarded with information, withimagery, with all kinds of
visuals that we're not even ableto tell what's real, what's not
real, and what is being done tous when that information is
presented to us. So, her work isvery much about creating almost
documentary-style videos, butthey incorporate elements of
(12:35):
almost, like, surrealism, andperformances, and music and
humour. But they all tietogether in a very interesting
way, and you're left questioningyour own agency in the world,
and your own perception ofreality. So, I find the practice
like that extremely interesting.
(12:56):
I've knownRagner's work for almost 15
Julie McIsaac (12:56):
Knowing that Ragnar currently has an exhibit
on display at the AGO called"Death Is Elsewhere," what do
you find most striking aboutRagnar's work?
years (13:07):
we're the same generation, so, as I was
becoming a curator, he wasbecoming an artist. And I kept
running into his work indifferent places around the
world. So, I've seen it developand get to the point where he's
that now and Death Is Elsewherewas made in 2019. It was always
such a strong experience that itmade me think that we should buy
(13:31):
it for the AGO, and it's now inour collection. And one of the
elements that's very fascinatingis how he created an
all-surrounding environment;it's a panoramic, you're
surrounded by this landscape. Itmakes you think of painting, it
makes you think of sculpture, itmakes you think of very
traditional forms of art butthey are expressed in this very
(13:55):
contemporary format of movingimage.
Julie McIsaac (13:58):
And what do you find particularly impactful
about the way that he plays andincorporates music?
Adelina Vlas (14:04):
He knows how to select exactly the type of
music, or the style of music,that has the maximum impact for
what he is trying to say. And Ilike to call that, kind of, "the
emotional temperature" of thestyle, right? So, he might use
opera in one instance, or hemight use, you know, a very
(14:24):
mournful song in another, or alove ballad like he's using
"Death is Elsewhere." And hisrelationship with music extends
also to his collaborations withhis musician friends, and Death
Is Elsewhere also has thataspect very present as we have
those two sets of musician twinspaired together, and they
(14:48):
compose the song together withRagnar. So, music is at the core
of how he develops a project ora work of art.
Robyn Grant-Moran (14:58):
I'd like to just connect your work to opera
for a moment, and both the AGOand the COC share roots in a
predominantly European classicaland romantic art form, with ties
to particular socio-economicclasses, but we're seeing both
companies working to make surethey do better to represent
(15:19):
Toronto and make space welcomingfor as many people as possible.
So, how do you think that we canstrive to do better?
Adelina Vlas (15:28):
This is a very good question and I agree with
you that our institutions arevery much rooted in Eurocentric
traditions. At the AGO, I thinkwe're working on multiple fronts
to address this question, andone of the initiatives that came
(15:51):
out in 2019 was a major[accessibility] initiative,
introducing low-cost membershipof $35 a year it's called a
Annual Pass and also allowig people under the age of 25 t
come and access the museum fofree. And what this program ha
allowed us to learn about ouaudiences is really amazing
(16:14):
because we learned that peoplebetween 18 and 25 really took
advantage of this offer and camein to experience what the AGO
ad to offer. And we alsoearned that they were much more
iverse than our traditionaludience is. And it got u
thinking that, you know, "Wee need to do better to refle
t that, and we need to change te way we program, the way
(16:36):
we collect, and the waywe represent the communities we
re servi
Robyn Grant-Moran (16:41):
And thinking back to the [Yayoi] Kusama
exhibition, that the only thingthat was really restrictive
about it was actually getting aticket because there was so much
interest. Like, it was anincredibly diverse group of
people there and, like, nothinglike I've ever seen at the AGO.
(17:02):
I'm wondering if that wasexpected?
Adelina Vlas (17:06):
Oh, yes and no. I worked on that exhibition, I was
the in-house curator for theYayoi Kusama Infinity Mirrors,
so, I'm very close to how wethought about it in advance and
really what the reality taughtus. And we knew from the venues
who organized the show, and whodisplayed it before it got to
Toronto, that we didn't have toworry about an audience, that
(17:30):
people will come, that alreadyKusama had such a reputation.
And it's interesting how her wayof creating those reflecting
environments in a way predatingsocial media, but very much, you
know, talking about thisnarcissistic instinct that has
been exacerbated by social mediayou know, this kind of
(17:52):
constant infinite reflection ofourselves so, we weren't
surprised, we knew that it willhave a large audience appeal,
and that, yeah, our problem willbe how to get more people than
we could physically accommodateto see it, and that was the
challenge. And if I may addsomething that I think ties us
back to Ragnar, in a way (18:10):
I always thought about those
Infinity Mirrors I mean, theyare so, you know, photogenic
if I may call them that and sosocial media-friendly, and
everyone wanted their picture inthat reflection. But when I was
giving tours and when I wastalking about those rooms
(18:31):
particularly the dark ones, theones that were dark with the
light reflections they're allvery much about, kind of, death
and energy you know, how shethinks about us being just dots
of energy and the dots that'swhy it's such an important motif
for her. So, to think about thatin connection with Ragnar's
(18:52):
piece that clearly states in itstitle, "Death," and brings that
up to our minds, I find thatkind of an interesting contrast.
Julie McIsaac (19:01):
What I find myself thinking about is opera
as a reflective surface, in thesense that we have these works
that have been with us forcenturies, and every time we
mount them or explore them anew, it's a surface on which we
can see ourselves reflected, orit tells us something about our
contemporary experience. Interms of that lived experience
that we're going through rightnow, we know that our city is
(19:21):
still in this "on again, offagain" state of lockdown, so, we
thought we'd ask (19:24):
what and where is your favorite piece of public
art in Toronto right now?
Adelina Vlas (19:30):
Well, Toronto is so rich with public arts. I
think we're really lucky and,you know, it's one of the
options we have to stillencounter art and interact with
art. And there are a few worksof art that come to mind, and
mostly because they are part ofmy everyday or at least they
were when I was commuting and Iwas out in the world but they
still are because they're in myneighborhood, or at least close
(19:52):
to where I live. And one of themis called "Three Points Where
Two Lines Meet" and it's this,kind of, playful, colourful
metal structure built by twoartists that work as a
collective, Daniel Young andChristian Giroux, and it's at
(20:13):
the intersection of Bathurst[Street] and Vaughan Road, just
south of St. Clair [Avenue]West. And the reason why I love
it so much is because most ofthe time I pass it either on
my bike, or in a car, or on abus and when I'm with my son,
who's five years old, I look athow it activates his
(20:34):
imagination, and we can talkfor, like, a long time about
what he sees in it, what hethinks it's about, and I think
that that's the sign of asuccessful public art project:
is when it gets your imaginationgoing and you can think of what
you see in it versus what theartist intended. So, I like
(20:57):
those open-ended projects. Andanother project like this that I
love and it used to be closeto where I lived before in
Parkdale it's a work by LuisJacob, and it's called "Spirits
of the Grotto," and it's in theDufferin Railway Underpass at
Queen [Street] and Dufferin[Street], and there are those
sets of faces and eyes that are,kind of, presented on both sides
(21:18):
of the Underpass as you go underand they, kind of, follow you
and move with you, and it's,again, like, artists finding
ways to respond to a site sosuccessfully; it's a gift to the
city, right? Because they becomelandmarks and they are there as
part of your everyday.
Robyn Grant-Moran (21:49):
I was really happy that Adelina talked about
the art of the DufferinUnderpass because geography and
environment is so important. Ilove the idea of her son. Like,
I know I stop and every time Isee it, I've never gotten bored
of it. I always stop and thinkabout it. And I love the idea of
(22:10):
her son reflecting on what itmeans, too.
Julie McIsaac (22:12):
Well, I'm so grateful that you asked her the
question about "What makessuccessful public art?" So, to
ruminate on that for a littlebit because I think art is
subjective, but for us to givesome energy to "What is it that
is successful? What is it thatmakes it a meaningful
contribution to the landscape ofthe city?" And, like you said,
does it make people stop and,like, ignite their imaginations
(22:34):
and their interpretations of it?
Or, does it open up new ways ofseeing or for them to connect
with their reality? Also reallyintrigued when Adelina shared
with us that growing up incommunist Romania, opera was
allowed because it wasn't seenas something that was
subversive; it was very safe for
Robyn Grant-Moran (22:47):
Right? Isn't that wild?
Julie McIsaac (22:50):
Well, yeah, especially thinking back to
Episode Seven with Rena[Roussin], who pointed out to us
throughout opera's history allthese ways in which it has been
subversive and has upset thestatus quo. And, of course,
someone that Adelina has workedwith quite a lot is Ragnar
Kjartansson, a performance andvideo artist living and working
in Reykjavik. His work has beenfeatured at the Metropolitan
Museum of Art in New York, TheBarbican Centre in London, and
(23:12):
the Palais de Tokyo in Paris,among other places. And you
could see his work isall-encompassing: his videos,
performances, drawings, andpaintings rely heavily on
references to film, music,visual culture, and literature.
He's even produced some operaincluding a war-themed piece
called "Krieg."
Robyn Grant-Moran (23:31):
Ragnar's current exhibition at the AGO is
called Death Is Elsewhere. Itconsists of seven video screens
that surround the viewer. On thescreens, two sets of twins stand
across from each other, in thevast Icelandic landscape.
They're repeating a song inunison over and over without
beginning or end.
Julie McIsaac (23:49):
We thought we'd start by asking Ragnar how music
first came into his life.
Ragnar Kjartansson (24:01):
Music came into my life very much in the
form of I mean, there was thisidea of music in our basement,
which was a singer called EngelLund. She was a she was a folk
singer, born [in] the year 1900,but she sang, like, kind of, [a]
(24:24):
lieder folk singer she sanglieder and then, like, songs
from all over the world. And shewas Danish, her parents were
Danish (Iceland was a colony ofDenmark and her parents were at
the pharmacy in Reykjavik andwe're, sort of, Danish
aristocrats), and she had movedfrom Iceland when she was 11 and
(24:45):
studied singing, and became,sort of, a bar in Germany and in
between the two wars. And herrepertoire was totally amazing:
she sang folk songs from allover the world but mostly
Icelandic folk songs and Jewishfolk songs. And she would tell
all these stories, when theNazis started, you know, getting
(25:08):
power in Germany, she was justlike, "Well, I just started my
repertoire with the Icelandicsongs because they all thought
that was, sort of, 'Aryanmusic,' and then I would just do
the Jewish folk songs when thepublic was warm. So, then, like,
some guys in SS uniforms wouldjust forget." You know, because
she said the politics were soshallow, which is the brutality
(25:29):
of politics, you know. So, forme, like, I realized early on,
like, sort of, the politicalpower of music and, like, you
know, what it's from, what itmeans. But then the big, I
think, breakthrough in musiccame when "Amadeus" the movie
came out, and I got to see itseven times in the cinema. Like,
(25:50):
because it's easy, like, youknow, "Can I go to the cinema
again to see Amadeus?" It'slike, "Yes, it's so cultural.
You can."
Julie McIsaac (26:19):
Do you remember what impact the music had on
you?
Ragnar Kjartansson (26:22):
I think the emotional impact. What I really
remember the first time I reallydiscovered music and the power
of music was, I think, when Iheard Chris de Burghs "Lady in
Red" on the radio. I was just,like, "This is so beautiful."
Still, when I put it on, I just,kind of, start crying.
Robyn Grant-Moran (26:57):
Your exhibition at the AGO, as well
as your "Bliss" project, and somany others regularly use
repetitive performance elementsthat can last hours, days, or
even weeks. What's the purposeof repetition for you?
Ragnar Kjartansson (27:12):
It's a form I started to use very early on.
It was almost, like, a form oflike drawing like, "Okay, this
is an art form that exists. Iwill just use this form." I
don't ever remember that JohnCage line perfectly but John
Cage said something like, youknow, "Repeat something once,
it's interesting; repeatsomething twice, it's not that
interesting." You know, he said,like, "But if you start
(27:34):
repeating it more than 10 times,it starts being interesting."
You know, I wish I remember[ed]that quote now, but it's just
the feeling of that idea. Thatrepetition: there's something
weirdly interesting about italso, like, spiritual about it.
It's just, like, sort of,repetition is the basics of all
religion; we touch higher groundwith just repeating stuff.
Robyn Grant-Moran (27:58):
I was watching a video of Bliss
yesterday and it had a verychant-like quality to it, even
though it was the very opulentmusic of Mozart.
Ragnar Kjartansson (28:11):
Yeah, yeah! It's also interesting with
Bliss (28:14):
like, this really gorgeous music that's a part of
a narrative structure anopera. Like, when you just
repeat the process, again,again, it starts being, like,
white noise; it starts to sound,kind of, Buddhist or Gregorian,
or, you know. It's just like,the music slowly just goes out
(28:34):
of it.
Julie McIsaac (28:51):
What is it that you hope the listeners or the
viewers of your work might takeaway through that encounter with
the repetition?
Ragnar Kjartansson (28:59):
I think it's almost rude to, like, wish
something from the people thatcome and see my works. So, I
have I really have noexpectations, and no It's just
you put the work out there andhope that, you know, it's not
(29:19):
gonna destroy people's day,because I think every
you can just see it and this islike, "Oh, this is annoying,"
and you just, like, leave, andthat makes perfect sense I
mean, it's just, like, it'sannoying to see something
repeated, and I think that's aninteresting interpretation of
it. For me also, like,repetition is so much about,
(29:41):
like it gives things a
painterly quality (29:44):
you know, that they're just repeating
this, I'm not missing anything,you know. It's just, like, you
see a painting in a museum andit's like, "Yep, there's the
painting and it shows this and Ican look at it for an hour and
something happens, or I can justglance at it and I get it also."
The hour or the class (30:05):
they both have the same impact.
Julie McIsaac (30:10):
Right. No, I've never thought of it in that way
before but whereas, like yousay, with a painting, I could
stay there for a moment or Icould stay there for hours. By
virtue of having the the artworkor the music on repetition
we have that same opportunity toencounter it for a moment or
longer.
Ragnar Kjartansson (30:23):
I think that has, sort of, been the grand
idea in these works (30:28):
to, like, turn something that is not
active into something painterlyor sculptural.
Julie McIsaac (30:33):
People level that at opera as well in terms of the
repetition, with a da capo ariaor something that's very long
and durational, that some peoplemight find it annoying but other
people find increasing meaningas they encounter the work over
time.
Ragnar Kjartansson (30:46):
Yeah, absolutely. And talking about
repetition in opera, and that'salso really interesting that,
like, you know, most operatictheatres in the world are just,
like, always doing the sameoperas again and again.
Robyn Grant-Moran (31:02):
There's just more space between them!
Ragnar Kjartansson (31:04):
Yeah, there's more space between them!
And you think about, you know,if there wasn't COVID, you would
think like, "How manyperformances are there of The
Marriage of Figaro tonight, youknow, in the world?" These, kind
of, "entertaining song and danceplays" that were made back in
the day, that they have becomethis, like, classical ritual of
(31:25):
Western culture is sort ofinteresting.
Robyn Grant-Moran (31:28):
And you developed an opera for yourself,
"Krieg." Fun fact, for thelisteners who are also big alt,
indie rock fans (31:35):
the opera was composed by Kjartan Sveinsson,
the former keyboardist for theband Sigur Rs. I understand
your frequent collaborators. So,why did you guys choose opera as
the medium?
Ragnar Kjartansson (31:50):
We actually have made two operas
another one called The ExplosiveSonics of Divinity. We choose
(32:16):
opera because I just like theword "opera;" it just means "a
piece." You know, I realized,like, how open the word opera
was when I was in Italy, youknow, as a tourist. And, so,
like, you know, some guy'sfixing a road, it says, like,
"Opera." You know, it's just,like, "This opera will be on
(32:37):
'til Wednesday." So, likeeverything, you just doing
stuff, that means "opera." And Ifound that, so, like, it opened
up the idea of opera so muchbecause, like, we look at it as
this very fixed things. LikeKrieg is an opera where there is
just, like, dramatic music andthe soldier dying, like, for an
(32:58):
hour; it's just, like, a guydying. It's just super dramatic
music and just an actor justdoing [imitates screaming]. It's
just an actor acting is heartout and, like, super dramatic
music. And that's also why Ireally love to collaborate with
(33:20):
Kjartan because he I mean,those who know his work with
Sigur Rs, it's very, like, veryemotional music he makes. And,
you know, like, although youget, like, this stupid idea,
like, you know, like, "Can youmake really ridiculously
dramatic music when somebody isjust dying on the stage for an
hour?" He goes, like, "Yes, Iwill do it," and he actually
(33:43):
does it with heart and, like,all the way. It is really
heartbreaking music; it's notlike, you know, he just sort of
He has a very good sense ofhumou, but he knows, like, you
know, you just have to take thehumour out of it so it works.
So, it becomes weird andinteresting.
Julie McIsaac (34:01):
The next question we were interested in asking
you, Ragnar, was about piecesthat don't have narrative at
their centre but yet have thisemotional capacity to create
this reaction in us, and itfeels like that's exactly what
you're talking about (34:14):
is that despite the fact that story-wise
there isn't an evolution, it'sjust this one moment. Could you
talk to us a little bit moreabout that?
Ragnar Kjartansson (34:24):
I really like this idea of high points,
you know. Like, I mean, because,for example, I had myself seen
many versions of The Marriage ofFigaro just to wait for that,
you know, final moment. You gothrough the whole opera, fall
asleep two times. (And, I mean,I always fall asleep but opera
and I think that's a healthything. I mean, I think it's the
(34:46):
art Goddess is whispering to youwhile you're sleeping up an
opera.) When you just take thehigh points and just, like, turn
them into white noise, you takethe emotion out of the most
emotional, but it is alwaysemotional; there's some weird
thing that happens that I findinteresting. You know, looking
at rehearsals in the theatre,like, when actors were
(35:09):
rehearsing the same scene overand over again, and was always
so curious [about] what washappening before it, and what
was happening after it. And thenyou saw the actual production,
then it was, like, narrative andthis thing was happening before
it, this thing after it. Iremember it was always such a
disappointment, you know (35:27):
I hadn't imagined anything, it was
just this idea that somethingwas before and something after,
and I had no idea what it was.
It was mysterious. And then,like, when the narrative
structure of the play came, Iwas like, "Oh, yeah, this is
it." And narrative structuresare always, sort of, the same.
So, you know, talking about all
the kinds of repetition (35:49):
it's, like, we always tell the same
stories and, I mean, it'sunlimited. It's depressing when
you ask a human being, like, "Doanything you can within
imagination." You just go, like,"Dragons, space"
Julie McIsaac (36:07):
Beginning, middle, end.
Robyn Grant-Moran (36:09):
Hero's journey.
Ragnar Kjartansson (36:11):
Yeah, totally!
Julie McIsaac (36:12):
Yeah.
Ragnar Kjartansson (36:14):
Yeah.
Julie McIsaac (36:14):
I'm even thinking about how our lives are
repetition, in the sense of "Goto sleep. Wake up. Eat some
food. Brush your teeth. See somepeople."
Ragnar Kjartansson (36:22):
Yeah. We look so much for security in
repetition. And, you know, like,that's also the nice thing
ab (36:30):
like, I've started to, like, live a repetitive life because,
like, my life was just, like,always traveling, like,
constant, like, mayhem. But nowit's, like, I feel like my soul
is settling; it's like the dustsettling. Like, now I live a
repetitive life, and I, sort of,know what's gonna happen
tomorrow. It's just like, ahhh!
Julie McIsaac (36:52):
I, too, have witnessed that in the rehearsal
hall, where the actors will dothe scene over and over and over
again, and there is a magic thatemerges or it creates its own
meaningful experience. Andsometimes I then, too, miss what
happens in rehearsal when weactually get to a production
where everything goes one to thenext to the next to the next.
Ragnar Kjartansson (37:11):
I think that was the ground idea of, like,
why I started doing this stuff,like
Robyn Grant-Moran (37:16):
Music from a whole range of genres factor so
heavily into your art. And I'mthinking about some of your
other works here, like "God" and"A Lot of Sorrow." In the first
your singing with an orchestra,and in the second you have the
band The National singing theirsong "Sorrow" over and over for
six hours! Why is music sosuccessful at eliciting the
(37:38):
experience you're after?
Ragnar Kjartansson (37:40):
There is something ridiculously great
about music and it's, like Itgoes back to the "Lady in Red,"
you know, like, it's just, youknow, like, time stops and,
like, you know, everything elsejust disappears. That's what
great music does, you know, beit Beethoven or Megan Thee
Stallion, or, you know, likeIt's just something takes you
(38:01):
and, you know, kicks you in theguts. It's totally not based on
genre. I was just listening to"The Winner Takes It All" [by]
ABBA yesterday for the9,000,000th time, and it's just,
like, "This song is soridiculously good." It's so
brutal and it's somulti-layered. It's just a, you
(38:23):
know, it's mega-heroic balladabout the one who is defeated.
And, you know, in the backgroundstory that, like, he wrote it
for her when they weredivorcing, it's just, ahhh! It's
just so hurtful. It just, like,kills my heart every time when I
(38:45):
hear it. And also just, like,makes me so happy because it's a
gorgeous art piece. Just put onthis ABBA song when you're doing
the dishes, and it just takesyou and you start crying while
you're doing the dishes. I mean,it's in the background but it's
more powerful than coffee.
Robyn Grant-Moran (39:24):
As a musician yourself, do you see any
difference between the way youengage with music in a gallery
setting versus how youexperienced it on-stage or in a
concert hall?
Ragnar Kjartansson (39:35):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that
that's why I started workingwith music and the visual art
form (39:41):
was that you have, somehow, this free space; you
can suddenly do anything youwant with music. I mean, I
remember it, like, when being ina band there was, like I mean,
the music world, it's a verylimited world, in a way. I mean,
it's just, like, you writesomething, you rehearse it, and
(40:02):
you perform it, record it, andyou tour it, maybe make a video.
It's, like, everything is, like,the form is very precise. I
mean, you know it, like, fromeven opera, it's very precise.
"No, no, no, this is not anopera. This is not this. This is
not the company song. This is,like" All this really, like,
(40:23):
boring stuff around thisbeautiful thing that music is.
And I just realized, because Ithink I went into art school
because, like, I realized thatvisual art is the sort of
ultimate freedom. I think MarcelDuchamp, with his urinal
[Fountain], gave everybody thatcame after him this total
(40:46):
freedom like, you can dowhatever you want and say it's
an art piece. And, you know,there is no way no one can say
anything. I mean, people canjust say it's "good" or "bad,"
but, you know, of courseThere's freedom of the art
space. Or even the art ideathat I really like! So, that's
(41:08):
why I really like working withmusic in a, kind of, art space
function rather than, you know,the classical concert function.
But I mean, like, playing with aband in a concert, or, like
it's just fantastic. But I mean,it's a very different thing.
Julie McIsaac (41:25):
What have you encountered from the performers
who've been involved in thatrepetitive performance? What
[are] some of the discoveries orreactions that they've had in
being the ones to perform thatrepetition?
Ragnar Kjartansson (41:36):
For most of the time, I've heard, you know,
very positive reactions. And,you know, understandably some
people are just, like, "Ican't." You know, that's also
why I always say, like, youknow, if you feel this is
ridiculous and you just can't doit, I really understand that;
you should just, like, say, "Ican't do it," and leave. But
those who have done it usuallyhave a very positive experience
(41:59):
from it. That's also why Istarted, you know, asking other
people to do these kinds ofperformances, because I did them
myself first started doing,like, these kind of long,
durational performances aloneand I just realized it was so
nice. It's just like, "Ah!" It'sjust, sort of, [a] get away from
(42:22):
reality. You're just in someperformance for 12 hours and
there's nothing that can touchyou. Because our lives are a
narrative structure, like, "I'mdoing this now," then "I'm doing
that now" and it's "What shouldI do in between?" But when
you're just, like, in somethingfor hours and hours, there's,
like, you know it's sort offreedom for the mind.
Julie McIsaac (42:43):
What are some of your standout memories from
having performed this kind ofwork yourself?
Ragnar Kjartansson (42:49):
When we filmed Bliss in L.A., like,
almost two years ago now. I justremember, like, we had been for
11 hours, and I was just, like,"Oh, no, it's about to end," you
know. It's just, like, a weirdfeeling: you're just, like, "I
love to be drenched in thismusic." But then you're, at the
(43:10):
same time, like, "Oh, wow, it'sgonna be fun to end and, like,
have a drink. Oh!" Well, I thinkone of my most memorable
experiences was, like, I wasdoing a performance in Norway,
where I was lying in a basement.
Yeah, there was a trapdoor thatwas open, you saw me performing
underneath that trapdoor, and Iwas just, like, lying there for
(43:32):
a week, you know, like "ahh!"singing something like that for
a week. A group of teenagerscame to see it and they were,
like, looking at me, you know,through the trapdoor, like, down
on me like, I saw these facesof teenagers and then there
was this beautiful moment whenthey just started [imitates
(43:52):
horking and spitting].
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:01):
I was going to ask if that positioning
brought out some of the worst inpeople!
Ragnar Kjartansson (44:08):
And I just remember, like, "You fucking
assholes," but, like [I alsothought], "Who is the asshole? I
this is so pretentious, me lyinghere, doing, like, 'ahh!' some
sound." Like, I felt I deservedit and I was, like It was a
really interesting feeling.
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:27):
It's just hitting me as we discussed,
like, how paradoxical your workreally is. And I don't know that
I felt that before coming intothis interview; I was just
fascinated by it but didn't havea sense of that. Like, you're
creating permanence out ofsomething impermanent, but then
(44:49):
that's giving you impermanence.
Is that something you're tryingto express? Like, sort of the
paradox of existence, really.
Ragnar Kjartansson (44:59):
Yeah, I think so. Yes, I think so,
Robyn.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:01):
Yes, yes.
Julie McIsaac (45:08):
Well, that was super fun! Like, he's such a
playful energy. Like, I reallyloved his humour and his
appreciation of beauty inwhatever form it comes.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:19):
Right?
There's no sense of guiltypleasure when he's talking about
music. Like he embraces ABBA,and Chris de Burgh as openly as
he embraces more classic works.
Julie McIsaac (45:33):
And there was no sense of hierarchical preference
or positioning of thesedifferent styles of music.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:38):
Right. Like, I have this stereotype about
contemporary artists I don'tknow if you do, too but I find
because contemporary artist isso cerebral, that I expect the
artist to maybe be snobby or tohave a very structured
hierarchy. And it was just sucha joy to have that stereotype
(46:03):
for me completely dismantled byRagnar.
Julie McIsaac (46:07):
Well, and I'm always just afraid that I'm not
going to get it; that I'm notgoing to have the education or
the wisdom to understand whatthey're putting forward. And
yet, with Ragnar, it felt likehe's so open and inclusive of
whatever response the audiencemight bring to their experience.
His idea of equanimity and beingokay with whatever they offer:
like, "If you find it annoying,that's fine! If you love it,
(46:29):
that's great, too!"
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:30):
Which is an incredibly healthy attitude to
have towards your own artcreation. I wish I could have
that!
Julie McIsaac (46:38):
I get the sense that what he does is deeply
considered, it's thoughtthrough, it's intentional, it's
specific, and yet there doesn'tseem to be this sense of
attachment to the result.
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:47):
Right. It's more just it's the process. I
got the sense that a positiveresponse is a bonus; that really
the joy is creating. Should weall be so blessed to have that
kind of attitude towardscreation.
Julie McIsaac (47:03):
Yeah! To, like, work really hard at what we do
and yet have this freedom in thesense of non-attachment not
grasping at this one solitaryresponse. When I think about,
like, the myriad of audiencereactions that could come to his
work. I'm thinking about JohnCage, who he mentioned, with the
idea that John Cage createdthese containers, these
experiments, wherein whateversound was created by the
(47:23):
audience, by a bird flyingoverhead became part of the
performance. And, so, now when Ireflect on Ragnar's work, I also
think about all the ways thatthe audience might react, and
how that becomes part of theperformance or part of the
overall entity,
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:37):
Thinking of "Bliss," where it is a snippet
of Mozart's work being playedover and over again for 12
hours (47:44):
he stayed the whole time but I'm sure many of the
audience members came and went,and that that would become the
sounds of people going andsitting down, and getting up and
leaving, and wrestling throughpapers, putting their bags down
all the sounds that accompanygetting comfortable watching
(48:07):
something, then becomes part ofBliss itself.
Julie McIsaac (48:11):
How the singers in the orchestra and the
conductor are dealing with thefact that they're performing
this over and over again, thatto me would become part of the
experience, too, that I wouldfind really interesting, in
terms of fatigue, in terms ofthirst in terms of physical
exhaustion.
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:25):
To bring it back to the "zen" idea
almost like it becomes a conethat gets repeated over and over
again
Julie McIsaac (48:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:34):
where the artists then find different
meaning and differentinterpretations. When you repeat
something and the freedom thatthat brings up, the freedom of
repetition, like you, Julie, youwere saying, in the rehearsal
hall.
Julie McIsaac (48:48):
Yeah. And I was just thinking about that,
actually, in the sense thatsometimes I give it as the
exercise to the performers. Say,"There's this little snippet
that we're working on, maybeit's a two-minute scene, maybe
it's a bit longer, we're goingto do it four times in a row,
we're not going to talk about itin between. You're going to
perform it or practice it,rehearse it, and then once you
get to the end of it, just goback to the beginning and do it
again." So, they loop it threeor four times, just to allow
(49:10):
them that time to live in it,and to explore different
choices, because sometimes weget bogged down when we stop and
talk and talk about things allthe time. It somehow, like it
puts the brakes on a creativeprocess on the, sort of, flow
that can be really useful. So,I'll encourage them to use that
repetition in rehearsal to seewhat it yields, to see what it
reveals.
Robyn Grant-Moran (49:28):
When I've had to do that as an artist, it
creates so much freedom becauseyou get so married to your
ideas, and then with repetition,you divorce yourself from them,
almost unwittingly like, it'sjust a thing that happens
Julie McIsaac (49:49):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (49:50):
that that all gets stripped away.
Julie McIsaac (49:52):
Well, Robyn, I'm curious about, like, your own
experiences with repetition andduration, like, as an audience
member or as a performer.
Robyn Grant-Moran (50:00):
We talked about the Kusama exhibit and
that you had two minutes perroom, and I am kicking myself
now for not asking Adelina thiswhen we had the chance: was the
two minutes purely for timeconsideration to make sure they
got the masses through, or wasthat the intention of the
(50:24):
exhibit
Julie McIsaac (50:25):
Oh, interesting!
Robyn Grant-Moran (50:26):
on a non-practical level?
Julie McIsaac (50:29):
Right. Had the artist determined two minutes
that they feel the audienceshould spend, or was it
logistical?
Robyn Grant-Moran (50:35):
Exactly. And there were some of those rooms
that I just wanted to stay inforever. By limiting to two
minutes, it completely forced meto absorb them and perceive them
in a way that I don't think Iwould have if I didn't have that
(50:55):
constraint put on me, and I wasjust trying to ignore everybody
taking selfies because I wantedto just absorb it. And I
probably sound like I'm tryingto virtue signal but it was just
how I chose to want toexperience that moment. The
duration, I think, playedheavily into that choice, where
if I had three minutes, fourminutes, even, maybe I would
(51:19):
have taken selfies. How aboutyou?
Julie McIsaac (51:23):
Well, I certainly found myself envying when Ragnar
was talking about the liberationthat comes in the fact that he
can just, like, release into itand not have to think about
anything else other than thatrepeated performance that he's
participating in I foundmyself thinking back to the
discovery I made, sort of,having trained in school and, as
a young artist, everything feltso precious; you felt, like, you
(51:44):
had this one chance to get itright or you desperately wanted
to get it right. Whereas, as Igot older and I had more chances
to do things repeatedly like,to do 100 performances of the
same show there you get a lotless precious, and the
repetition can be somethingthat's really healthy, and you
explore something a littledifferent each time but you
don't grasp as tightly to eachone because you know that it's
(52:06):
part of this repeated process,and that you can discover
different nuance and subtletyevery time.
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:12):
Basically, with repetition, there's that
freedom but he was also tryingto make something that's
ephemeral permanent. In doingso, in creating a sort of
permanence for the audiencemembers, it creates an
impermanence and a freedom forthe performers. And I love that
(52:33):
paradox there.
Julie McIsaac (52:34):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:35):
I thought that was so fascinating.
Julie McIsaac (52:37):
Well, and speaking of "impermanent
permanence," if we take a stepback and consider opera as a
whole like, let's think aboutopera as durational art: like,
the idea that for centuries now,we've been all participating in
this long-standing durationalperformance in the sense that we
repeatedly staged the same worksover and over again, and we
(52:58):
return to them and hear themperformed.
Robyn Grant-Moran (53:01):
And each production is, sort of, that
freedom to explore a little bitdifferently that the repetition
provides.
Julie McIsaac (53:11):
I find myself thinking about what if an opera
company decided, "We're going tostage the same work so, for
our six mainstage shows, ifwe're thinking of the COC model
we're only going to do 'TheElixir of Love'" completely
random choice "but eachproduction is going to be
different; it's gonna be thesame singer, same orchestra,
same conductor, but it's gonnabe six different productions of
(53:33):
the same work. Like, sixdifferent concepts, six
different sets of costumes andsets. But that same group of
artists is going to do it overthe course of an entire season."
Like, it's completely weird andI don't suggest it as a business
model.
Robyn Grant-Moran (53:44):
No, yeah. No, I can't imagine many audience
members really getting behindthat I totally would! Maybe a
different production but maybenot, because there's a whole
bunch of fun things you can dowith [The] Elixir of Love. But,
yeah, turning the opera companyinto really overt performance
(54:07):
art
Julie McIsaac (54:09):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:10):
contemporary performance are rather than
opera.
Julie McIsaac (54:14):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:15):
That's a really cool, fun idea
conceptually, anyway!
Julie McIsaac (54:20):
And then even in opera in its traditional usage,
or its traditional experience,it is durational performance
art, too like, Wagner (54:26):
people who go to attend The Ring[Cycle]
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:30):
Right?
Julie McIsaac (54:30):
and they're there for a weekend, or they're
there for a week, or a longerperiod of time and they're,
like, those devotees to be therein that ritual way to
participate.
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:39):
Like, I remember the Four Seasons Centre
when it opened that was Ididn't go on vacation, I didn't
go visit my family; my vacationwas going to the COC and
watching The Ring Cycle. TheRing Cycle in and of itself is
a, kind of, durational piece,and then the reproductions of
(55:01):
The Ring Cycle is a, kind of,durational piece that's been
happening for over 100 yearsfor almost 200. Like, it's mind
boggling!
Julie McIsaac (55:11):
And when I attend a Wagner opera whether I'm
seeing it in a video format orlive in an opera house I think
I go through all stages in thesense of there's moments where I
get annoyed, there's momentswhere I go, like, "Oh, this plot
isn't moving quickly enough,"but then I'm completely overcome
by the music, and you feel thissense of, like, proud
completion, and it's alsomusically really satisfying in
(55:33):
terms of, you know, thosemelodies and those harmonies
being drawn out for thatresolution. But I go through all
these different relationships tothe work throughout those hours
and hours.
Robyn Grant-Moran (55:41):
I have to confess
through a period of "I've justfallen asleep for a few
minutes," and that that's allpart of the experience: "I'm
gonna fall asleep; I'm going toget frustrated; my butt's gonna
get sore; I'm going to transcendand experience God, creator,
(56:06):
other some greater power."
Julie McIsaac (56:09):
One of my big takeaways from chatting with
Ragnar and Adelina is the factthat both of them have opera as
part of their creative lives, orit's something they've attended,
it's something they'veexperienced, and yet, their work
goes far beyond that (56:19):
they have this, like, really thriving
artistic curatorial practicethat touches on opera, but has a
lot mor (56:25):
I love how opera can be something you're super
passionate about, but it canalso be something that you have
this passing acquaintance with,in that sense of, like, "Oh,
yeah, I know her. We hang outsometimes."
Robyn Grant-Moran (56:35):
Yeah, it's no more or less valid
relationship is yourrelationship, and it's so
equally valid.
Julie McIsaac (56:45):
I agree.
Robyn Grant-Moran (56:46):
And so to take a really high emotional
point out of an opera and loopit, you get to write your own
before and after to set it in,which I think is just
fascinating.
Julie McIsaac (57:04):
Yeah, no, this whole chat has been so great and
it reminds me that, as differentarts organizations here in the
city [the AGO and COC], Iwouldn't want to think of us as
vying for audiences or for thisone scarce place in the city.
We're all working together, andwe're all pouring water into
that well, collaboratingtogether and, you know,
supporting one another becauseultimately, I think we all want
the same thing, which is to havethis vibrant urban life where
(57:27):
everyone feels connected to art,and are empowered to dream, and
to imagine that before and thatafter that you mentioned, Robyn.
Robyn Grant-Moran (57:43):
Thanks for joining us for Episode 12.
Julie McIsaac (57:46):
We'd love to hear your questions or feedback or
even ideas for future episodes.
Either tag us on social@CanadianOpera, or email us at
audiences@coc.ca. You can alsosend us a voice memo and there's
instructions for how to do thatat coc.ca/KeyChange.
Robyn Grant-Moran (58:04):
We appreciate all the feedback we've received
so far and the reviews you'veleft on Apple Podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (58:10):
Coming up next episode
connection between opera and thebody.
Robyn Grant-Moran (58:15):
Joining us as guests will be Canadian
mezzo-soprano Krisztina Szaband COC Performance Kinetics
Consultant, Jennifer Swan.
Julie McIsaac (58:24):
With both of them, we're really excited to
explore how performers engagetheir breath and bodies during
performance, as well as lookingat some new holistic ways that
artists are being trained foropera performance.
Robyn Grant-Moran (58:36):
I'm definitely looking forward to
this one.
Be the first to find out aboutfree events and concerts from
the COC by signing up for ourmonthly eOpera newsletter at
coc.ca/eOpera.
Julie McIsaac (58:58):
Thank you to all of our supporters for making Key
Change possible. This week, wewant to especially thank every
COC member, subscriber, anddonor for coming on this journey
with us as we explore new waysto share opera's unique power.
Robyn Grant-Moran (59:12):
So, to make sure you don't miss an episode,
subscribe to Key Change whereveryou get your podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (59:19):
Key Change is produced by the Canadian Opera
Company and hosted by RobynGrant-Moran and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (59:25):
To learn more about today's guests and see the
show notes, please visit ourwebsite at coc.ca/KeyChange.
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to Key Change (00:00):
A COC Podcast, where we explore
everything about opera from afresh perspective.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:18):
We're your hosts, Robyn Grant-Moran
Julie McIsaac (00:20):
and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:23):
And welcome to Episode 12 of Key Change
our first podcast of the spring!Today we're looking at Opera and
Contemporary Art, and some ofthe projects where the two
collide and intersect.
Julie McIsaac (00:35):
Toronto, as a city, is a phenomenal cultural
hub. It's home to so manycreators and artistic
organizations, and somethingthat's been so great to see
especially during the pandemichas been the shared sense of
solidarity and partnership asall of us, in the arts and
culture sector, work to stayconnected to our art forms and
to our shared communities. Andby collaborating with one
(00:55):
another, I think we're alllearning that we're more alike
than we are different.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:59):
This episode is, kind of, a perfect example
of that. When we were thinkingabout the idea of opera and
contemporary art, the Icelandicartist Ragnar Kjartansson,
immediately came to mind.
Someone had mentioned thiswild-sounding installation that
he'd done called "Bliss." It'sbasically a two-minute excerpt
from the finale of Mozart's TheMarriage of Figaro, looped over
and over for 12 hours straight!
Julie McIsaac (01:24):
So, for anyone who thinks that opera's are long
leading to a potentially veryfrustrating or potentially
exquisite transformativeexperience, depending on your
perspective Ragnar's worktakes things to a whole new
level.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:36):
In doing our research, we realized that
Ragnar actually has one of hisworks currently on display at
the Art Gallery of Ontario[AGO]. And this got us thinking,
"Here's the chance for us tolearn more about the world of
contemporary art, but also forart gallery fans to learn more
about opera." So, in addition tospeaking with Ragnar, we also
connected with Adelina Vlas,Associate Curator of
(01:57):
Contemporary Art.
Julie McIsaac (01:58):
We'll hear from Ragnar later in this episode
and you definitely don't want tomiss it; It's so fun and
Adelina is Associate Curator ofContemporary Art at the Art
Gallery of Ontario. Before that,she held curatorial positions at
the Philadelphia Museum of Artand the National Gallery of
Canada. She was involved inbringing the massively popular
"Infinity Mirrors" by YayoiKusama to Toronto in 2018. And
(02:20):
her area of specialty is postwarcontemporary art with a focus on
conceptual and time-based mediapractices.
Adelina, we're thrilled to haveyou here with us today and we're
really excited to talk to youabout your curatorial work. But,
(02:44):
just before we jump into that,we'd love to know: how has opera
been present or how did it firstcome into your life?
Adelina Vlas (02:51):
Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be
talking to you today and operais something that's been in my
life from a very young age. Igrew up in communist Romania in
the 80s, which was one of theharshest decades, under that
particular regime. And somehowthe censorship bureau thought
(03:11):
that opera was not subversive,so we were allowed to experience
it. So, it was one of the formsof music that I listened to
growing up and learned in schoolabout. So, someone like Giuseppe
Verdi was, you know, a householdname in Romania and we would
talk about his opera's as ifthey were, you know, our own
cultural background. So, yeah,it's something I grew up with
(03:36):
and I've experienced almost myentire life.
Julie McIsaac (03:40):
And I'm very curious
anything in particular thatstood out to you?
Adelina Vlas (03:45):
Well, the the large, kind of, ensemble, you
know, choir pieces were the mostdramatic ones. And I think that,
of course, if you thinkhistorically at the time, when
he was composing that music andthe political message, of
course, opera was nothing butworse, right? So, in a way, I
(04:08):
like to think about it ascheating the system a little
bit, right, as art always has amessage and the message might be
perceived differently in time,but, yeah, it's always there.
Robyn Grant-Moran (04:40):
So, Adelina, can you tell us more about the
role of a curator? What does anaverage day look like for you?
Adelina Vlas (04:46):
So, I am a curator of contemporary art and I want
to make that distinction becausecontemporary art means dealing
with living artists, or workingwith living artists and it's
very different than working withthe ones who have passed on. And
something that attracted me tothis particular area of work is
(05:09):
because I love working withliving art, and being part of
the moment I live in and beingpart of the conversations around
how the work is made, how thework is displayed. So, a typical
day in a large museum, like theArt Gallery of Ontario, might
communications with artists isone of them; on any given day, I
(05:30):
might be talking with an artistin Montreal, or Vancouver, or
Paris, or, you know, BuenosAires depending on what our
projects are; and communicationswith colleagues, and galleries,
and constant exchange it's areally active fields and,
internally, we meet to discusshow we realize our projects, how
(05:53):
we make acquisitions, how weremain relevant to current
conversations and to ourcommunity. So, I might be doing,
you know, visits to gallerieswhen that's allowed; I might be
on the phone; I might be in ameeting; I might be in a
gallery; I might be havingcoffee with a supporter it's
all happening!
Robyn Grant-Moran (06:13):
I'm wondering
changed what a day and curationlooks like?
Adelina Vlas (06:20):
It has and I'll use the example of an exhibition
that is currently installed inthe galleries. It opened in
October, it was originallyscheduled for April of 2020. So,
when we went in the firstlockdown, crates were arriving
with works from all over theworld, the artist is Haegue
(06:41):
Yang, the exhibition is calledEmergence. She's Korean but
based in Berlin and Seoul. Theexhibition, first of all, the
works have to stay in crates formonths until we were allowed to
get back into [the] building andopen them and install the
exhibition at a slower pace,accounting for the new health
protocols, and the artist wasnever able to come or any of her
(07:04):
assistants, and that's highlyunusual in contemporary art.
Julie McIsaac (07:08):
I was really drawn to what you were saying,
Adelina, about how you work withliving artists and how that's an
important distinction where someof your colleagues might be
working with artworks that havebeen created by people have come
before us,and people who havepassed, and what the corollaries
are in opera practice because alot of our grand works are
created by composers who are nolonger with us, but we have
contemporary creation happeningas well. Now your specialty at
(07:30):
the AGO, as we understand it, ispostwar contemporary art,
especially conceptual andtime-based media practices. Now,
the idea of a piece being"time-locked" certainly sets it
apart from a lot of other workin galleries. What do you think
that dimension adds for theviewer?
Adelina Vlas (07:46):
Duration is part of any artistic experience
can take a second, two seconds,a minute to look at a painting,
or you can take an hour to lookat a painting. So, you define
how long you want to spend witha work of art. I think
performative arts, like opera,have a different kind of
temporality and duration, andrequire a different kind of time
(08:07):
investment. But, as it appliesto contemporary art, we define
time-based media by the mediumitself. So, if it's a file
that's on a carrier, it needsplayback device, and they need a
display device, right? So, itcould be a USB, you need to plug
it into a computer and a drive,and then you need a projector.
(08:30):
So, those are the technicalterms that define time-based
media. It's really interestingbecause when artists turn to
technology it happened in the60s, right, when technology
became more easily available,and portable, and easy to use
and since, artists havestruggled themselves with "How
(08:50):
much can they ask of the viewer,especially in the museum
context" right? And we're verymuch aware of that demand on the
viewer to spend time with thework, that it's a predetermined
time, right? We usually put onour labels the duration [of the
piece], so visitors know like,"Okay, this if you want to
experience it from beginning tothe end is 30 minutes or is 15
(09:11):
minutes." And I think thatartists, at some point, figure
out that the ideal length islike 8-10 minutes. So, we
started seeing a lot of workunder 10 minutes. It's dependent
on the content, too, right. AndI think with we'll be talking
about Ragnar and, in his case,he's someone who has been
(09:32):
interested in duration in a veryparticular way, right? And I
think that what he's built intohis work from the beginning is
this repetition. So, repetitionis already part of the structure
he's working with. So, herepeats usually have a 1-2-3
minute musical segment again andagain, again, and sometimes, for
(09:54):
as long as an hour or more. Butthe idea is that you can walk
in, you can be there for a fewminutes, and you, kind of,
understand. And if you reallyget pulled into the work you can
spend as long as you want. Butthat repetition is almost like
the looping device; it connectsto the medium itself, when we
(10:16):
project something, it's alwayslooping.
Robyn Grant-Moran (10:18):
How does the role of narrative change between
a more traditional piece of artor even opera, and some of the
conceptual or time-based worksthat you specialize in?
Adelina Vlas (10:29):
Someone like Michael Snow, right, who is, you
know the subject of his filmsare film in film itself, and
it's extremely conceptual, andthere is no narrative, right?
It's completely broken down andtaken away from the medium. So,
(10:51):
yeah, it has to be in thecontext of each individual
practice. But narrative, again,if you think of a historic
painting or, you know,large-scale painting usually
involves some kind of narrative,and it's static, right? You have
to use your imagination toactivate that image, and that
(11:11):
scene, and create the narrativeor think of the narrative that
it belongs to. And I think thattime-based media or artists who
work with film and video use, ofcourse, a temporality as a way
of telling a story, and thereare artists who work in more of
a documentary style. But othersstill choose to just play with
(11:32):
the conventions of the mediumand temporality being one of
them to create a differentsense of narrative, or different
sense of experience altogether.
Julie McIsaac (11:40):
Are there particular movements or trends
in terms of narrative or doingaway with narrative that you're
particularly drawn to
Adelina Vlas (11:48):
Someone like Hito Steyerl, who's a German artist
who actually had an exhibitionat the AGO in 2019 called "This
Is the Future," is someone who'strained as a filmmaker and she's
a writer, and she's thinkingabout the medium but she's also
very much interested on how we,as subjects of 21st century, are
(12:10):
bombarded with information, withimagery, with all kinds of
visuals that we're not even ableto tell what's real, what's not
real, and what is being done tous when that information is
presented to us. So, her work isvery much about creating almost
documentary-style videos, butthey incorporate elements of
(12:35):
almost, like, surrealism, andperformances, and music and
humour. But they all tietogether in a very interesting
way, and you're left questioningyour own agency in the world,
and your own perception ofreality. So, I find the practice
like that extremely interesting.
(12:56):
I've knownRagner's work for almost 15
Julie McIsaac (12:56):
Knowing that Ragnar currently has an exhibit
on display at the AGO called"Death Is Elsewhere," what do
you find most striking aboutRagnar's work?
years (13:07):
we're the same generation, so, as I was
becoming a curator, he wasbecoming an artist. And I kept
running into his work indifferent places around the
world. So, I've seen it developand get to the point where he's
that now and Death Is Elsewherewas made in 2019. It was always
such a strong experience that itmade me think that we should buy
(13:31):
it for the AGO, and it's now inour collection. And one of the
elements that's very fascinatingis how he created an
all-surrounding environment;it's a panoramic, you're
surrounded by this landscape. Itmakes you think of painting, it
makes you think of sculpture, itmakes you think of very
traditional forms of art butthey are expressed in this very
(13:55):
contemporary format of movingimage.
Julie McIsaac (13:58):
And what do you find particularly impactful
about the way that he plays andincorporates music?
Adelina Vlas (14:04):
He knows how to select exactly the type of
music, or the style of music,that has the maximum impact for
what he is trying to say. And Ilike to call that, kind of, "the
emotional temperature" of thestyle, right? So, he might use
opera in one instance, or hemight use, you know, a very
(14:24):
mournful song in another, or alove ballad like he's using
"Death is Elsewhere." And hisrelationship with music extends
also to his collaborations withhis musician friends, and Death
Is Elsewhere also has thataspect very present as we have
those two sets of musician twinspaired together, and they
(14:48):
compose the song together withRagnar. So, music is at the core
of how he develops a project ora work of art.
Robyn Grant-Moran (14:58):
I'd like to just connect your work to opera
for a moment, and both the AGOand the COC share roots in a
predominantly European classicaland romantic art form, with ties
to particular socio-economicclasses, but we're seeing both
companies working to make surethey do better to represent
(15:19):
Toronto and make space welcomingfor as many people as possible.
So, how do you think that we canstrive to do better?
Adelina Vlas (15:28):
This is a very good question and I agree with
you that our institutions arevery much rooted in Eurocentric
traditions. At the AGO, I thinkwe're working on multiple fronts
to address this question, andone of the initiatives that came
(15:51):
out in 2019 was a major[accessibility] initiative,
introducing low-cost membershipof $35 a year it's called a
Annual Pass and also allowig people under the age of 25 t
come and access the museum fofree. And what this program ha
allowed us to learn about ouaudiences is really amazing
(16:14):
because we learned that peoplebetween 18 and 25 really took
advantage of this offer and camein to experience what the AGO
ad to offer. And we alsoearned that they were much more
iverse than our traditionaludience is. And it got u
thinking that, you know, "Wee need to do better to refle
t that, and we need to change te way we program, the way
(16:36):
we collect, and the waywe represent the communities we
re servi
Robyn Grant-Moran (16:41):
And thinking back to the [Yayoi] Kusama
exhibition, that the only thingthat was really restrictive
about it was actually getting aticket because there was so much
interest. Like, it was anincredibly diverse group of
people there and, like, nothinglike I've ever seen at the AGO.
(17:02):
I'm wondering if that wasexpected?
Adelina Vlas (17:06):
Oh, yes and no. I worked on that exhibition, I was
the in-house curator for theYayoi Kusama Infinity Mirrors,
so, I'm very close to how wethought about it in advance and
really what the reality taughtus. And we knew from the venues
who organized the show, and whodisplayed it before it got to
Toronto, that we didn't have toworry about an audience, that
(17:30):
people will come, that alreadyKusama had such a reputation.
And it's interesting how her wayof creating those reflecting
environments in a way predatingsocial media, but very much, you
know, talking about thisnarcissistic instinct that has
been exacerbated by social mediayou know, this kind of
(17:52):
constant infinite reflection ofourselves so, we weren't
surprised, we knew that it willhave a large audience appeal,
and that, yeah, our problem willbe how to get more people than
we could physically accommodateto see it, and that was the
challenge. And if I may addsomething that I think ties us
back to Ragnar, in a way (18:10):
I always thought about those
Infinity Mirrors I mean, theyare so, you know, photogenic
if I may call them that and sosocial media-friendly, and
everyone wanted their picture inthat reflection. But when I was
giving tours and when I wastalking about those rooms
(18:31):
particularly the dark ones, theones that were dark with the
light reflections they're allvery much about, kind of, death
and energy you know, how shethinks about us being just dots
of energy and the dots that'swhy it's such an important motif
for her. So, to think about thatin connection with Ragnar's
(18:52):
piece that clearly states in itstitle, "Death," and brings that
up to our minds, I find thatkind of an interesting contrast.
Julie McIsaac (19:01):
What I find myself thinking about is opera
as a reflective surface, in thesense that we have these works
that have been with us forcenturies, and every time we
mount them or explore them anew, it's a surface on which we
can see ourselves reflected, orit tells us something about our
contemporary experience. Interms of that lived experience
that we're going through rightnow, we know that our city is
(19:21):
still in this "on again, offagain" state of lockdown, so, we
thought we'd ask (19:24):
what and where is your favorite piece of public
art in Toronto right now?
Adelina Vlas (19:30):
Well, Toronto is so rich with public arts. I
think we're really lucky and,you know, it's one of the
options we have to stillencounter art and interact with
art. And there are a few worksof art that come to mind, and
mostly because they are part ofmy everyday or at least they
were when I was commuting and Iwas out in the world but they
still are because they're in myneighborhood, or at least close
(19:52):
to where I live. And one of themis called "Three Points Where
Two Lines Meet" and it's this,kind of, playful, colourful
metal structure built by twoartists that work as a
collective, Daniel Young andChristian Giroux, and it's at
(20:13):
the intersection of Bathurst[Street] and Vaughan Road, just
south of St. Clair [Avenue]West. And the reason why I love
it so much is because most ofthe time I pass it either on
my bike, or in a car, or on abus and when I'm with my son,
who's five years old, I look athow it activates his
(20:34):
imagination, and we can talkfor, like, a long time about
what he sees in it, what hethinks it's about, and I think
that that's the sign of asuccessful public art project:
is when it gets your imaginationgoing and you can think of what
you see in it versus what theartist intended. So, I like
(20:57):
those open-ended projects. Andanother project like this that I
love and it used to be closeto where I lived before in
Parkdale it's a work by LuisJacob, and it's called "Spirits
of the Grotto," and it's in theDufferin Railway Underpass at
Queen [Street] and Dufferin[Street], and there are those
sets of faces and eyes that are,kind of, presented on both sides
(21:18):
of the Underpass as you go underand they, kind of, follow you
and move with you, and it's,again, like, artists finding
ways to respond to a site sosuccessfully; it's a gift to the
city, right? Because they becomelandmarks and they are there as
part of your everyday.
Robyn Grant-Moran (21:49):
I was really happy that Adelina talked about
the art of the DufferinUnderpass because geography and
environment is so important. Ilove the idea of her son. Like,
I know I stop and every time Isee it, I've never gotten bored
of it. I always stop and thinkabout it. And I love the idea of
(22:10):
her son reflecting on what itmeans, too.
Julie McIsaac (22:12):
Well, I'm so grateful that you asked her the
question about "What makessuccessful public art?" So, to
ruminate on that for a littlebit because I think art is
subjective, but for us to givesome energy to "What is it that
is successful? What is it thatmakes it a meaningful
contribution to the landscape ofthe city?" And, like you said,
does it make people stop and,like, ignite their imaginations
(22:34):
and their interpretations of it?
Or, does it open up new ways ofseeing or for them to connect
with their reality? Also reallyintrigued when Adelina shared
with us that growing up incommunist Romania, opera was
allowed because it wasn't seenas something that was
subversive; it was very safe for
Robyn Grant-Moran (22:47):
Right? Isn't that wild?
Julie McIsaac (22:50):
Well, yeah, especially thinking back to
Episode Seven with Rena[Roussin], who pointed out to us
throughout opera's history allthese ways in which it has been
subversive and has upset thestatus quo. And, of course,
someone that Adelina has workedwith quite a lot is Ragnar
Kjartansson, a performance andvideo artist living and working
in Reykjavik. His work has beenfeatured at the Metropolitan
Museum of Art in New York, TheBarbican Centre in London, and
(23:12):
the Palais de Tokyo in Paris,among other places. And you
could see his work isall-encompassing: his videos,
performances, drawings, andpaintings rely heavily on
references to film, music,visual culture, and literature.
He's even produced some operaincluding a war-themed piece
called "Krieg."
Robyn Grant-Moran (23:31):
Ragnar's current exhibition at the AGO is
called Death Is Elsewhere. Itconsists of seven video screens
that surround the viewer. On thescreens, two sets of twins stand
across from each other, in thevast Icelandic landscape.
They're repeating a song inunison over and over without
beginning or end.
Julie McIsaac (23:49):
We thought we'd start by asking Ragnar how music
first came into his life.
Ragnar Kjartansson (24:01):
Music came into my life very much in the
form of I mean, there was thisidea of music in our basement,
which was a singer called EngelLund. She was a she was a folk
singer, born [in] the year 1900,but she sang, like, kind of, [a]
(24:24):
lieder folk singer she sanglieder and then, like, songs
from all over the world. And shewas Danish, her parents were
Danish (Iceland was a colony ofDenmark and her parents were at
the pharmacy in Reykjavik andwe're, sort of, Danish
aristocrats), and she had movedfrom Iceland when she was 11 and
(24:45):
studied singing, and became,sort of, a bar in Germany and in
between the two wars. And herrepertoire was totally amazing:
she sang folk songs from allover the world but mostly
Icelandic folk songs and Jewishfolk songs. And she would tell
all these stories, when theNazis started, you know, getting
(25:08):
power in Germany, she was justlike, "Well, I just started my
repertoire with the Icelandicsongs because they all thought
that was, sort of, 'Aryanmusic,' and then I would just do
the Jewish folk songs when thepublic was warm. So, then, like,
some guys in SS uniforms wouldjust forget." You know, because
she said the politics were soshallow, which is the brutality
(25:29):
of politics, you know. So, forme, like, I realized early on,
like, sort of, the politicalpower of music and, like, you
know, what it's from, what itmeans. But then the big, I
think, breakthrough in musiccame when "Amadeus" the movie
came out, and I got to see itseven times in the cinema. Like,
(25:50):
because it's easy, like, youknow, "Can I go to the cinema
again to see Amadeus?" It'slike, "Yes, it's so cultural.
You can."
Julie McIsaac (26:19):
Do you remember what impact the music had on
you?
Ragnar Kjartansson (26:22):
I think the emotional impact. What I really
remember the first time I reallydiscovered music and the power
of music was, I think, when Iheard Chris de Burghs "Lady in
Red" on the radio. I was just,like, "This is so beautiful."
Still, when I put it on, I just,kind of, start crying.
Robyn Grant-Moran (26:57):
Your exhibition at the AGO, as well
as your "Bliss" project, and somany others regularly use
repetitive performance elementsthat can last hours, days, or
even weeks. What's the purposeof repetition for you?
Ragnar Kjartansson (27:12):
It's a form I started to use very early on.
It was almost, like, a form oflike drawing like, "Okay, this
is an art form that exists. Iwill just use this form." I
don't ever remember that JohnCage line perfectly but John
Cage said something like, youknow, "Repeat something once,
it's interesting; repeatsomething twice, it's not that
interesting." You know, he said,like, "But if you start
(27:34):
repeating it more than 10 times,it starts being interesting."
You know, I wish I remember[ed]that quote now, but it's just
the feeling of that idea. Thatrepetition: there's something
weirdly interesting about italso, like, spiritual about it.
It's just, like, sort of,repetition is the basics of all
religion; we touch higher groundwith just repeating stuff.
Robyn Grant-Moran (27:58):
I was watching a video of Bliss
yesterday and it had a verychant-like quality to it, even
though it was the very opulentmusic of Mozart.
Ragnar Kjartansson (28:11):
Yeah, yeah! It's also interesting with
Bliss (28:14):
like, this really gorgeous music that's a part of
a narrative structure anopera. Like, when you just
repeat the process, again,again, it starts being, like,
white noise; it starts to sound,kind of, Buddhist or Gregorian,
or, you know. It's just like,the music slowly just goes out
(28:34):
of it.
Julie McIsaac (28:51):
What is it that you hope the listeners or the
viewers of your work might takeaway through that encounter with
the repetition?
Ragnar Kjartansson (28:59):
I think it's almost rude to, like, wish
something from the people thatcome and see my works. So, I
have I really have noexpectations, and no It's just
you put the work out there andhope that, you know, it's not
(29:19):
gonna destroy people's day,because I think every
you can just see it and this islike, "Oh, this is annoying,"
and you just, like, leave, andthat makes perfect sense I
mean, it's just, like, it'sannoying to see something
repeated, and I think that's aninteresting interpretation of
it. For me also, like,repetition is so much about,
(29:41):
like it gives things a
painterly quality (29:44):
you know, that they're just repeating
this, I'm not missing anything,you know. It's just, like, you
see a painting in a museum andit's like, "Yep, there's the
painting and it shows this and Ican look at it for an hour and
something happens, or I can justglance at it and I get it also."
The hour or the class (30:05):
they both have the same impact.
Julie McIsaac (30:10):
Right. No, I've never thought of it in that way
before but whereas, like yousay, with a painting, I could
stay there for a moment or Icould stay there for hours. By
virtue of having the the artworkor the music on repetition
we have that same opportunity toencounter it for a moment or
longer.
Ragnar Kjartansson (30:23):
I think that has, sort of, been the grand
idea in these works (30:28):
to, like, turn something that is not
active into something painterlyor sculptural.
Julie McIsaac (30:33):
People level that at opera as well in terms of the
repetition, with a da capo ariaor something that's very long
and durational, that some peoplemight find it annoying but other
people find increasing meaningas they encounter the work over
time.
Ragnar Kjartansson (30:46):
Yeah, absolutely. And talking about
repetition in opera, and that'salso really interesting that,
like, you know, most operatictheatres in the world are just,
like, always doing the sameoperas again and again.
Robyn Grant-Moran (31:02):
There's just more space between them!
Ragnar Kjartansson (31:04):
Yeah, there's more space between them!
And you think about, you know,if there wasn't COVID, you would
think like, "How manyperformances are there of The
Marriage of Figaro tonight, youknow, in the world?" These, kind
of, "entertaining song and danceplays" that were made back in
the day, that they have becomethis, like, classical ritual of
(31:25):
Western culture is sort ofinteresting.
Robyn Grant-Moran (31:28):
And you developed an opera for yourself,
"Krieg." Fun fact, for thelisteners who are also big alt,
indie rock fans (31:35):
the opera was composed by Kjartan Sveinsson,
the former keyboardist for theband Sigur Rs. I understand
your frequent collaborators. So,why did you guys choose opera as
the medium?
Ragnar Kjartansson (31:50):
We actually have made two operas
another one called The ExplosiveSonics of Divinity. We choose
(32:16):
opera because I just like theword "opera;" it just means "a
piece." You know, I realized,like, how open the word opera
was when I was in Italy, youknow, as a tourist. And, so,
like, you know, some guy'sfixing a road, it says, like,
"Opera." You know, it's just,like, "This opera will be on
(32:37):
'til Wednesday." So, likeeverything, you just doing
stuff, that means "opera." And Ifound that, so, like, it opened
up the idea of opera so muchbecause, like, we look at it as
this very fixed things. LikeKrieg is an opera where there is
just, like, dramatic music andthe soldier dying, like, for an
(32:58):
hour; it's just, like, a guydying. It's just super dramatic
music and just an actor justdoing [imitates screaming]. It's
just an actor acting is heartout and, like, super dramatic
music. And that's also why Ireally love to collaborate with
(33:20):
Kjartan because he I mean,those who know his work with
Sigur Rs, it's very, like, veryemotional music he makes. And,
you know, like, although youget, like, this stupid idea,
like, you know, like, "Can youmake really ridiculously
dramatic music when somebody isjust dying on the stage for an
hour?" He goes, like, "Yes, Iwill do it," and he actually
(33:43):
does it with heart and, like,all the way. It is really
heartbreaking music; it's notlike, you know, he just sort of
He has a very good sense ofhumou, but he knows, like, you
know, you just have to take thehumour out of it so it works.
So, it becomes weird andinteresting.
Julie McIsaac (34:01):
The next question we were interested in asking
you, Ragnar, was about piecesthat don't have narrative at
their centre but yet have thisemotional capacity to create
this reaction in us, and itfeels like that's exactly what
you're talking about (34:14):
is that despite the fact that story-wise
there isn't an evolution, it'sjust this one moment. Could you
talk to us a little bit moreabout that?
Ragnar Kjartansson (34:24):
I really like this idea of high points,
you know. Like, I mean, because,for example, I had myself seen
many versions of The Marriage ofFigaro just to wait for that,
you know, final moment. You gothrough the whole opera, fall
asleep two times. (And, I mean,I always fall asleep but opera
and I think that's a healthything. I mean, I think it's the
(34:46):
art Goddess is whispering to youwhile you're sleeping up an
opera.) When you just take thehigh points and just, like, turn
them into white noise, you takethe emotion out of the most
emotional, but it is alwaysemotional; there's some weird
thing that happens that I findinteresting. You know, looking
at rehearsals in the theatre,like, when actors were
(35:09):
rehearsing the same scene overand over again, and was always
so curious [about] what washappening before it, and what
was happening after it. And thenyou saw the actual production,
then it was, like, narrative andthis thing was happening before
it, this thing after it. Iremember it was always such a
disappointment, you know (35:27):
I hadn't imagined anything, it was
just this idea that somethingwas before and something after,
and I had no idea what it was.
It was mysterious. And then,like, when the narrative
structure of the play came, Iwas like, "Oh, yeah, this is
it." And narrative structuresare always, sort of, the same.
So, you know, talking about all
the kinds of repetition (35:49):
it's, like, we always tell the same
stories and, I mean, it'sunlimited. It's depressing when
you ask a human being, like, "Doanything you can within
imagination." You just go, like,"Dragons, space"
Julie McIsaac (36:07):
Beginning, middle, end.
Robyn Grant-Moran (36:09):
Hero's journey.
Ragnar Kjartansson (36:11):
Yeah, totally!
Julie McIsaac (36:12):
Yeah.
Ragnar Kjartansson (36:14):
Yeah.
Julie McIsaac (36:14):
I'm even thinking about how our lives are
repetition, in the sense of "Goto sleep. Wake up. Eat some
food. Brush your teeth. See somepeople."
Ragnar Kjartansson (36:22):
Yeah. We look so much for security in
repetition. And, you know, like,that's also the nice thing
ab (36:30):
like, I've started to, like, live a repetitive life because,
like, my life was just, like,always traveling, like,
constant, like, mayhem. But nowit's, like, I feel like my soul
is settling; it's like the dustsettling. Like, now I live a
repetitive life, and I, sort of,know what's gonna happen
tomorrow. It's just like, ahhh!
Julie McIsaac (36:52):
I, too, have witnessed that in the rehearsal
hall, where the actors will dothe scene over and over and over
again, and there is a magic thatemerges or it creates its own
meaningful experience. Andsometimes I then, too, miss what
happens in rehearsal when weactually get to a production
where everything goes one to thenext to the next to the next.
Ragnar Kjartansson (37:11):
I think that was the ground idea of, like,
why I started doing this stuff,like
Robyn Grant-Moran (37:16):
Music from a whole range of genres factor so
heavily into your art. And I'mthinking about some of your
other works here, like "God" and"A Lot of Sorrow." In the first
your singing with an orchestra,and in the second you have the
band The National singing theirsong "Sorrow" over and over for
six hours! Why is music sosuccessful at eliciting the
(37:38):
experience you're after?
Ragnar Kjartansson (37:40):
There is something ridiculously great
about music and it's, like Itgoes back to the "Lady in Red,"
you know, like, it's just, youknow, like, time stops and,
like, you know, everything elsejust disappears. That's what
great music does, you know, beit Beethoven or Megan Thee
Stallion, or, you know, likeIt's just something takes you
(38:01):
and, you know, kicks you in theguts. It's totally not based on
genre. I was just listening to"The Winner Takes It All" [by]
ABBA yesterday for the9,000,000th time, and it's just,
like, "This song is soridiculously good." It's so
brutal and it's somulti-layered. It's just a, you
(38:23):
know, it's mega-heroic balladabout the one who is defeated.
And, you know, in the backgroundstory that, like, he wrote it
for her when they weredivorcing, it's just, ahhh! It's
just so hurtful. It just, like,kills my heart every time when I
(38:45):
hear it. And also just, like,makes me so happy because it's a
gorgeous art piece. Just put onthis ABBA song when you're doing
the dishes, and it just takesyou and you start crying while
you're doing the dishes. I mean,it's in the background but it's
more powerful than coffee.
Robyn Grant-Moran (39:24):
As a musician yourself, do you see any
difference between the way youengage with music in a gallery
setting versus how youexperienced it on-stage or in a
concert hall?
Ragnar Kjartansson (39:35):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that
that's why I started workingwith music and the visual art
form (39:41):
was that you have, somehow, this free space; you
can suddenly do anything youwant with music. I mean, I
remember it, like, when being ina band there was, like I mean,
the music world, it's a verylimited world, in a way. I mean,
it's just, like, you writesomething, you rehearse it, and
(40:02):
you perform it, record it, andyou tour it, maybe make a video.
It's, like, everything is, like,the form is very precise. I
mean, you know it, like, fromeven opera, it's very precise.
"No, no, no, this is not anopera. This is not this. This is
not the company song. This is,like" All this really, like,
(40:23):
boring stuff around thisbeautiful thing that music is.
And I just realized, because Ithink I went into art school
because, like, I realized thatvisual art is the sort of
ultimate freedom. I think MarcelDuchamp, with his urinal
[Fountain], gave everybody thatcame after him this total
(40:46):
freedom like, you can dowhatever you want and say it's
an art piece. And, you know,there is no way no one can say
anything. I mean, people canjust say it's "good" or "bad,"
but, you know, of courseThere's freedom of the art
space. Or even the art ideathat I really like! So, that's
(41:08):
why I really like working withmusic in a, kind of, art space
function rather than, you know,the classical concert function.
But I mean, like, playing with aband in a concert, or, like
it's just fantastic. But I mean,it's a very different thing.
Julie McIsaac (41:25):
What have you encountered from the performers
who've been involved in thatrepetitive performance? What
[are] some of the discoveries orreactions that they've had in
being the ones to perform thatrepetition?
Ragnar Kjartansson (41:36):
For most of the time, I've heard, you know,
very positive reactions. And,you know, understandably some
people are just, like, "Ican't." You know, that's also
why I always say, like, youknow, if you feel this is
ridiculous and you just can't doit, I really understand that;
you should just, like, say, "Ican't do it," and leave. But
those who have done it usuallyhave a very positive experience
(41:59):
from it. That's also why Istarted, you know, asking other
people to do these kinds ofperformances, because I did them
myself first started doing,like, these kind of long,
durational performances aloneand I just realized it was so
nice. It's just like, "Ah!" It'sjust, sort of, [a] get away from
(42:22):
reality. You're just in someperformance for 12 hours and
there's nothing that can touchyou. Because our lives are a
narrative structure, like, "I'mdoing this now," then "I'm doing
that now" and it's "What shouldI do in between?" But when
you're just, like, in somethingfor hours and hours, there's,
like, you know it's sort offreedom for the mind.
Julie McIsaac (42:43):
What are some of your standout memories from
having performed this kind ofwork yourself?
Ragnar Kjartansson (42:49):
When we filmed Bliss in L.A., like,
almost two years ago now. I justremember, like, we had been for
11 hours, and I was just, like,"Oh, no, it's about to end," you
know. It's just, like, a weirdfeeling: you're just, like, "I
love to be drenched in thismusic." But then you're, at the
(43:10):
same time, like, "Oh, wow, it'sgonna be fun to end and, like,
have a drink. Oh!" Well, I thinkone of my most memorable
experiences was, like, I wasdoing a performance in Norway,
where I was lying in a basement.
Yeah, there was a trapdoor thatwas open, you saw me performing
underneath that trapdoor, and Iwas just, like, lying there for
(43:32):
a week, you know, like "ahh!"singing something like that for
a week. A group of teenagerscame to see it and they were,
like, looking at me, you know,through the trapdoor, like, down
on me like, I saw these facesof teenagers and then there
was this beautiful moment whenthey just started [imitates
(43:52):
horking and spitting].
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:01):
I was going to ask if that positioning
brought out some of the worst inpeople!
Ragnar Kjartansson (44:08):
And I just remember, like, "You fucking
assholes," but, like [I alsothought], "Who is the asshole? I
this is so pretentious, me lyinghere, doing, like, 'ahh!' some
sound." Like, I felt I deservedit and I was, like It was a
really interesting feeling.
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:27):
It's just hitting me as we discussed,
like, how paradoxical your workreally is. And I don't know that
I felt that before coming intothis interview; I was just
fascinated by it but didn't havea sense of that. Like, you're
creating permanence out ofsomething impermanent, but then
(44:49):
that's giving you impermanence.
Is that something you're tryingto express? Like, sort of the
paradox of existence, really.
Ragnar Kjartansson (44:59):
Yeah, I think so. Yes, I think so,
Robyn.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:01):
Yes, yes.
Julie McIsaac (45:08):
Well, that was super fun! Like, he's such a
playful energy. Like, I reallyloved his humour and his
appreciation of beauty inwhatever form it comes.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:19):
Right?
There's no sense of guiltypleasure when he's talking about
music. Like he embraces ABBA,and Chris de Burgh as openly as
he embraces more classic works.
Julie McIsaac (45:33):
And there was no sense of hierarchical preference
or positioning of thesedifferent styles of music.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:38):
Right. Like, I have this stereotype about
contemporary artists I don'tknow if you do, too but I find
because contemporary artist isso cerebral, that I expect the
artist to maybe be snobby or tohave a very structured
hierarchy. And it was just sucha joy to have that stereotype
(46:03):
for me completely dismantled byRagnar.
Julie McIsaac (46:07):
Well, and I'm always just afraid that I'm not
going to get it; that I'm notgoing to have the education or
the wisdom to understand whatthey're putting forward. And
yet, with Ragnar, it felt likehe's so open and inclusive of
whatever response the audiencemight bring to their experience.
His idea of equanimity and beingokay with whatever they offer:
like, "If you find it annoying,that's fine! If you love it,
(46:29):
that's great, too!"
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:30):
Which is an incredibly healthy attitude to
have towards your own artcreation. I wish I could have
that!
Julie McIsaac (46:38):
I get the sense that what he does is deeply
considered, it's thoughtthrough, it's intentional, it's
specific, and yet there doesn'tseem to be this sense of
attachment to the result.
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:47):
Right. It's more just it's the process. I
got the sense that a positiveresponse is a bonus; that really
the joy is creating. Should weall be so blessed to have that
kind of attitude towardscreation.
Julie McIsaac (47:03):
Yeah! To, like, work really hard at what we do
and yet have this freedom in thesense of non-attachment not
grasping at this one solitaryresponse. When I think about,
like, the myriad of audiencereactions that could come to his
work. I'm thinking about JohnCage, who he mentioned, with the
idea that John Cage createdthese containers, these
experiments, wherein whateversound was created by the
(47:23):
audience, by a bird flyingoverhead became part of the
performance. And, so, now when Ireflect on Ragnar's work, I also
think about all the ways thatthe audience might react, and
how that becomes part of theperformance or part of the
overall entity,
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:37):
Thinking of "Bliss," where it is a snippet
of Mozart's work being playedover and over again for 12
hours (47:44):
he stayed the whole time but I'm sure many of the
audience members came and went,and that that would become the
sounds of people going andsitting down, and getting up and
leaving, and wrestling throughpapers, putting their bags down
all the sounds that accompanygetting comfortable watching
(48:07):
something, then becomes part ofBliss itself.
Julie McIsaac (48:11):
How the singers in the orchestra and the
conductor are dealing with thefact that they're performing
this over and over again, thatto me would become part of the
experience, too, that I wouldfind really interesting, in
terms of fatigue, in terms ofthirst in terms of physical
exhaustion.
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:25):
To bring it back to the "zen" idea
almost like it becomes a conethat gets repeated over and over
again
Julie McIsaac (48:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:34):
where the artists then find different
meaning and differentinterpretations. When you repeat
something and the freedom thatthat brings up, the freedom of
repetition, like you, Julie, youwere saying, in the rehearsal
hall.
Julie McIsaac (48:48):
Yeah. And I was just thinking about that,
actually, in the sense thatsometimes I give it as the
exercise to the performers. Say,"There's this little snippet
that we're working on, maybeit's a two-minute scene, maybe
it's a bit longer, we're goingto do it four times in a row,
we're not going to talk about itin between. You're going to
perform it or practice it,rehearse it, and then once you
get to the end of it, just goback to the beginning and do it
again." So, they loop it threeor four times, just to allow
(49:10):
them that time to live in it,and to explore different
choices, because sometimes weget bogged down when we stop and
talk and talk about things allthe time. It somehow, like it
puts the brakes on a creativeprocess on the, sort of, flow
that can be really useful. So,I'll encourage them to use that
repetition in rehearsal to seewhat it yields, to see what it
reveals.
Robyn Grant-Moran (49:28):
When I've had to do that as an artist, it
creates so much freedom becauseyou get so married to your
ideas, and then with repetition,you divorce yourself from them,
almost unwittingly like, it'sjust a thing that happens
Julie McIsaac (49:49):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (49:50):
that that all gets stripped away.
Julie McIsaac (49:52):
Well, Robyn, I'm curious about, like, your own
experiences with repetition andduration, like, as an audience
member or as a performer.
Robyn Grant-Moran (50:00):
We talked about the Kusama exhibit and
that you had two minutes perroom, and I am kicking myself
now for not asking Adelina thiswhen we had the chance: was the
two minutes purely for timeconsideration to make sure they
got the masses through, or wasthat the intention of the
(50:24):
exhibit
Julie McIsaac (50:25):
Oh, interesting!
Robyn Grant-Moran (50:26):
on a non-practical level?
Julie McIsaac (50:29):
Right. Had the artist determined two minutes
that they feel the audienceshould spend, or was it
logistical?
Robyn Grant-Moran (50:35):
Exactly. And there were some of those rooms
that I just wanted to stay inforever. By limiting to two
minutes, it completely forced meto absorb them and perceive them
in a way that I don't think Iwould have if I didn't have that
(50:55):
constraint put on me, and I wasjust trying to ignore everybody
taking selfies because I wantedto just absorb it. And I
probably sound like I'm tryingto virtue signal but it was just
how I chose to want toexperience that moment. The
duration, I think, playedheavily into that choice, where
if I had three minutes, fourminutes, even, maybe I would
(51:19):
have taken selfies. How aboutyou?
Julie McIsaac (51:23):
Well, I certainly found myself envying when Ragnar
was talking about the liberationthat comes in the fact that he
can just, like, release into itand not have to think about
anything else other than thatrepeated performance that he's
participating in I foundmyself thinking back to the
discovery I made, sort of,having trained in school and, as
a young artist, everything feltso precious; you felt, like, you
(51:44):
had this one chance to get itright or you desperately wanted
to get it right. Whereas, as Igot older and I had more chances
to do things repeatedly like,to do 100 performances of the
same show there you get a lotless precious, and the
repetition can be somethingthat's really healthy, and you
explore something a littledifferent each time but you
don't grasp as tightly to eachone because you know that it's
(52:06):
part of this repeated process,and that you can discover
different nuance and subtletyevery time.
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:12):
Basically, with repetition, there's that
freedom but he was also tryingto make something that's
ephemeral permanent. In doingso, in creating a sort of
permanence for the audiencemembers, it creates an
impermanence and a freedom forthe performers. And I love that
(52:33):
paradox there.
Julie McIsaac (52:34):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:35):
I thought that was so fascinating.
Julie McIsaac (52:37):
Well, and speaking of "impermanent
permanence," if we take a stepback and consider opera as a
whole like, let's think aboutopera as durational art: like,
the idea that for centuries now,we've been all participating in
this long-standing durationalperformance in the sense that we
repeatedly staged the same worksover and over again, and we
(52:58):
return to them and hear themperformed.
Robyn Grant-Moran (53:01):
And each production is, sort of, that
freedom to explore a little bitdifferently that the repetition
provides.
Julie McIsaac (53:11):
I find myself thinking about what if an opera
company decided, "We're going tostage the same work so, for
our six mainstage shows, ifwe're thinking of the COC model
we're only going to do 'TheElixir of Love'" completely
random choice "but eachproduction is going to be
different; it's gonna be thesame singer, same orchestra,
same conductor, but it's gonnabe six different productions of
(53:33):
the same work. Like, sixdifferent concepts, six
different sets of costumes andsets. But that same group of
artists is going to do it overthe course of an entire season."
Like, it's completely weird andI don't suggest it as a business
model.
Robyn Grant-Moran (53:44):
No, yeah. No, I can't imagine many audience
members really getting behindthat I totally would! Maybe a
different production but maybenot, because there's a whole
bunch of fun things you can dowith [The] Elixir of Love. But,
yeah, turning the opera companyinto really overt performance
(54:07):
art
Julie McIsaac (54:09):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:10):
contemporary performance are rather than
opera.
Julie McIsaac (54:14):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:15):
That's a really cool, fun idea
conceptually, anyway!
Julie McIsaac (54:20):
And then even in opera in its traditional usage,
or its traditional experience,it is durational performance
art, too like, Wagner (54:26):
people who go to attend The Ring[Cycle]
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:30):
Right?
Julie McIsaac (54:30):
and they're there for a weekend, or they're
there for a week, or a longerperiod of time and they're,
like, those devotees to be therein that ritual way to
participate.
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:39):
Like, I remember the Four Seasons Centre
when it opened that was Ididn't go on vacation, I didn't
go visit my family; my vacationwas going to the COC and
watching The Ring Cycle. TheRing Cycle in and of itself is
a, kind of, durational piece,and then the reproductions of
(55:01):
The Ring Cycle is a, kind of,durational piece that's been
happening for over 100 yearsfor almost 200. Like, it's mind
boggling!
Julie McIsaac (55:11):
And when I attend a Wagner opera whether I'm
seeing it in a video format orlive in an opera house I think
I go through all stages in thesense of there's moments where I
get annoyed, there's momentswhere I go, like, "Oh, this plot
isn't moving quickly enough,"but then I'm completely overcome
by the music, and you feel thissense of, like, proud
completion, and it's alsomusically really satisfying in
(55:33):
terms of, you know, thosemelodies and those harmonies
being drawn out for thatresolution. But I go through all
these different relationships tothe work throughout those hours
and hours.
Robyn Grant-Moran (55:41):
I have to confess
through a period of "I've justfallen asleep for a few
minutes," and that that's allpart of the experience: "I'm
gonna fall asleep; I'm going toget frustrated; my butt's gonna
get sore; I'm going to transcendand experience God, creator,
(56:06):
other some greater power."
Julie McIsaac (56:09):
One of my big takeaways from chatting with
Ragnar and Adelina is the factthat both of them have opera as
part of their creative lives, orit's something they've attended,
it's something they'veexperienced, and yet, their work
goes far beyond that (56:19):
they have this, like, really thriving
artistic curatorial practicethat touches on opera, but has a
lot mor (56:25):
I love how opera can be something you're super
passionate about, but it canalso be something that you have
this passing acquaintance with,in that sense of, like, "Oh,
yeah, I know her. We hang outsometimes."
Robyn Grant-Moran (56:35):
Yeah, it's no more or less valid
relationship is yourrelationship, and it's so
equally valid.
Julie McIsaac (56:45):
I agree.
Robyn Grant-Moran (56:46):
And so to take a really high emotional
point out of an opera and loopit, you get to write your own
before and after to set it in,which I think is just
fascinating.
Julie McIsaac (57:04):
Yeah, no, this whole chat has been so great and
it reminds me that, as differentarts organizations here in the
city [the AGO and COC], Iwouldn't want to think of us as
vying for audiences or for thisone scarce place in the city.
We're all working together, andwe're all pouring water into
that well, collaboratingtogether and, you know,
supporting one another becauseultimately, I think we all want
the same thing, which is to havethis vibrant urban life where
(57:27):
everyone feels connected to art,and are empowered to dream, and
to imagine that before and thatafter that you mentioned, Robyn.
Robyn Grant-Moran (57:43):
Thanks for joining us for Episode 12.
Julie McIsaac (57:46):
We'd love to hear your questions or feedback or
even ideas for future episodes.
Either tag us on social@CanadianOpera, or email us at
audiences@coc.ca. You can alsosend us a voice memo and there's
instructions for how to do thatat coc.ca/KeyChange.
Robyn Grant-Moran (58:04):
We appreciate all the feedback we've received
so far and the reviews you'veleft on Apple Podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (58:10):
Coming up next episode
connection between opera and thebody.
Robyn Grant-Moran (58:15):
Joining us as guests will be Canadian
mezzo-soprano Krisztina Szaband COC Performance Kinetics
Consultant, Jennifer Swan.
Julie McIsaac (58:24):
With both of them, we're really excited to
explore how performers engagetheir breath and bodies during
performance, as well as lookingat some new holistic ways that
artists are being trained foropera performance.
Robyn Grant-Moran (58:36):
I'm definitely looking forward to
this one.
Be the first to find out aboutfree events and concerts from
the COC by signing up for ourmonthly eOpera newsletter at
coc.ca/eOpera.
Julie McIsaac (58:58):
Thank you to all of our supporters for making Key
Change possible. This week, wewant to especially thank every
COC member, subscriber, anddonor for coming on this journey
with us as we explore new waysto share opera's unique power.
Robyn Grant-Moran (59:12):
So, to make sure you don't miss an episode,
subscribe to Key Change whereveryou get your podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (59:19):
Key Change is produced by the Canadian Opera
Company and hosted by RobynGrant-Moran and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (59:25):
To learn more about today's guests and see the
show notes, please visit ourwebsite at coc.ca/KeyChange.
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