April 27, 2021 • 55 mins
When it comes to great opera, where is the line between artistry and athleticism? This week on Key Change, we explore all things physical in an episode dedicated to opera and the body. Performance Kinetics Consultant Jennifer Swan and Canadian mezzo-soprano Krisztina Szabó join Robyn and Julie for a look at how singers “feel”, manage, and successfully engage their breath and bodies during performance — as well as some new, holistic ways that artists are being trained for opera performance.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Julie McIsaac (00:00):
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to "Key Change (00:00):
A COC Podcast," where we explore
everything about opera from afresh perspective.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:18):
We're your hosts, Robyn Grant-Moran
Julie McIsaac (00:21):
and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:23):
Today on Episode 13 of the podcast
exploring opera and the body.
When people think about opera,they're often envisioning the
artistic aspects (00:29):
the sets, the costumes, those amazing high
notes.
Julie McIsaac (00:35):
But there's a lot that happens, over the course of
years, to hit those high notesand to make those memorable
performances happen. In fact,there's a whole host of full
body training that goes intopreparing singers for the stage.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:47):
We touched on this in our "Ask Us Anything"
episode a few weeks back (00:49):
a group of high school students
asked "How are singers heard atthe back of the house without
using any microphones?" Wechatted about this with
performer Jonathan Christopher.
We also connected with Head ofthe COC Ensemble Studio Liz
Upchurch for a quick lesson onsound frequencies, and how the
human body can operate as aninstrument.
Julie McIsaac (01:10):
And today we're digging deeper with COC
Performance Kinetics Consultant,Jennifer Swan, and Canadian
mezzo-soprano Krisztina Szab.
With both of them, we're excitedto learn more about how
performers use their breath andbodies during performance, and
we'll also explore some newholistic ways that artists are
being trained for operaperformance.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:29):
Up first is our chat with Jennifer Swan.
Jennifer has been a PerformanceKinetics Consultant with the COC
since 2012. But she's alsoworked extensively with both
dancers and athletes, includingCanadian Olympic ice dancers
Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir. Ifyou remember their award-winning
"Carmen" routine from 2013, thatwas Jen's choreography!
Julie McIsaac (01:51):
With singers.
Jennifer specializes inrefining, strengthening, and
training the breath in verysubtle yet concrete ways, with
techniques that have evolvedfrom her extensive background in
dance and Pilates. We began byasking her what her work entails
when she's in training sessionswith the artists of the COC's
Ensemble Studio.
Jennifer Swan (02:21):
Part of my role at the COC, when working with
the singers, is to try toembrace a philosophy of
"listening to understand" ratherthan "listening to reply." So,
in simple terms, that means thatI meet my Ensemble members, in
the space in real time, withtheir immediate issues. I think
(02:45):
it's important not to disregardtheir training, before working
with me, to instill a sense ofpersonal autonomy. And the idea
at the end of the two-yeartraining process at the COC, is
that the singers leave as active"change agents," if you will, in
(03:06):
charge of their physicalrecruitment for breath. And that
sounds like a really simple,kind of, concept, but the
reality is what has becomevery clear to me over the years
is that most of the singersarrived with very little sense
of physical process, and thedemand of physical process in
(03:31):
sustaining their house andtheir house being, of course or
their housing, if you will,their body, what supports the
actual talent that they arrive,you know, at the door of the COC
with. It was very curious to mehow much of their training was
presented in metaphor andsubjective imagery, and the
(03:52):
reality is when we giveambiguous physical cues, you get
ambiguous physical outcomes. Onone occasion was in a
masterclass where a femalesinger, being encouraged to sing
lower and have more "foot" inher sound, was encouraged to
sing through her "whoo-hoo."
Robyn Grant-Moran (04:16):
That's a metaphor I've gotten regularly
in my vocal lessons as well. Iknow that one well.
Jennifer Swan (04:23):
Isn't that crazy?
So, that one really is Well, so
many things (04:31):
one, the identification of what the
"whoo-hoo" actually is could beproblematic; and then the cue in
and of itself doesn't reallygive any clear physical
instruction what to do with the"whoo-hoo," to manifest a
change, if you will. So, one ofthe things that we would do at
(04:52):
the COC, under my instruction,would be separating the
difference between core trainingand core strengthening,
specifically working on a pelvicfloor recruitment of the TA
[transverse abdominal] musclebeing your core strengthening;
and then the core training beingthe ask that follows meaning,
(05:17):
the larger, bigger asks of yourwork. The body demands a certain
kind of clarity, and I do thinkthat dance like opera being
interpreted as an art formsometimes, unfortunately, falls
prey to the idea that thingsneed to be more mystical and
(05:40):
"arty" than concrete andpragmatic. And I tend to lean
heavily on the side that processneeds to be as pragmatic as
possible, so as to assist thesingers that we're working with.
Julie McIsaac (05:55):
Can you talk to us a little bit about your
previous work with dancers orwith athletes, and what you were
drawing on to then offer to thesinging training?
Jennifer Swan (06:02):
What was clear to me [is] that the way we train
core training and dance withathletes, the way we recruit
muscles, the timing ofrecruitment, and the uniqueness
of all of those things to eachspecific body was a skill set
that I could bring to the table.
It also became clear to me thatthere was undoing that needed to
(06:25):
be done, in many cases, beforedoing could take part and,
again, a skill set that I'mreally comfortable with. Fast
forward to today, and I havebeen given the most incredible
opportunity by my colleague,Nina Draganic, to create a think
tank, if you will, at the COCEnsemble Studio; I have been
(06:51):
given every opportunity tocreate and develop a syllabus
for physical movement that isconnected to the immediate
on-site training of operasingers. Were it not for the
broad-reaching scope of Nina'svision, I would not be asked to
do this podcast, to have theopportunity to work with the
(07:16):
numerous Ensemble members that Ihave, or to have the joy in
working with my colleagues, LizUpchurch, Wendy Nielsen, Steven
Leigh, to name only a few. It isa unique opportunity that the
COC took an enormous risk to bethe first one-off in Canada to
develop and support this kind oftraining. I am enormously
(07:40):
grateful.
Julie McIsaac (07:43):
Could you tell us a little bit more, Jen, about
what's been so special in yourwork here with the Ensemble
Studio?
Jennifer Swan (07:49):
With the opera singers, there was this unique
place for me to learn, as well,how to silence the mind and
encourage them to be physicallypresent with the work, and allow
for the curiosity of the work toreprogram proprioception, and
(08:09):
then reprogram the intellectaround the process of training
breath. So, a huge part of thejob would be actually not
attending to every question thatis presented, but rather asking
people to physically do, feel,and experience, and then express
(08:33):
what that was. That's a veryunique approach to opera singing
but not a unique approach,obviously, to dance. It is also
quite one-on-one, as you canimagine, and, of course, the
other part of all of that is thepersonal intimacy: one of the
(08:53):
things that opera, and dance,and sport share is that they are
the instrument. So, there's afragility about that that we
have to be very cognizant aboutwhen we work with them: our
corrections resonate in adifferent way because they are
the instrument. So, yourcomments live for a longer
(09:18):
period of time, and in a muchmore relevant way with dancers,
athletes, singers. Part of mybackground was working with
Scott and Tessa, the Olympicskaters, and it was as true for
them as it is for my Ensemblemembers at the COC, and my
(09:39):
little five-year-old ballerinas.
Robyn Grant-Moran (09:42):
Just thinking about figure skating in general,
like, you're dancing on ice withknives on your feet. So, there's
something that does not computebut I'm [in] awe when I watch
it. You have the choreographerswho figure out their routine,
and they understand it's a veryrigid structure that you have to
(10:04):
hit these marks, and then youhave marks to aim for above and
beyond. You're working in thisvery rigid framework, creating
this beautiful artistry, allwith knives on your feet. How do
you augment all the other platesthat are spinning, so to speak?
Jennifer Swan (10:24):
My role in both the Olympic ice dance world and
my role in the COC operaticworld is virtually the same: I,
in both situations, have theopportunity to work with a
really talented ensemble teamand, in both worlds, they
(10:45):
function in a collaborativemanner. So, there are multiple
players. When you talk about themarks that have to be met: there
is a jumping coach, there is achoreographer (which I was),
there is the overseeing skatingteacher/instructor, and then
there can be a variety of otherindividuals based on whatever
(11:08):
the piece might be, i.e. in theworld of opera, a diction
specialist well, it might besomebody who is a specialist in
the hands from flamenco dancing,to make a comparison. What is
common about my work with bothis that I have the pleasure of
dealing with the connectivetissue that lives between all of
(11:32):
the snapshot photographicmoments. So, I was once asked
what made Scott and Tessa souniquely different, and why they
were Olympian winners, and theanswer for me, without question,
is that they skated theconnective tissue meaning that
between A and B is where lifelives.
(12:07):
Between Jump A and Swivel TurnB, it's the space between those
two entities where the audiencebreathes with you, where there
is a connection, where thethread of breath and movement
intersect. the thread ofintention, forward direction,
(12:30):
where the honesty of the artistslives. And what has been so
exciting for me is being able tocelebrate that concept with
individuals in what would seemdecidedly different realms, but
yet not. So, there's somethingabout having the opportunity to
(12:55):
work with people who are wantingto be courageous enough, to
challenge perception, to want tofalsify belief, rather than
reinforcing belief, and theindividuals in all of these
worlds are so ready and able todo that, and that process lives
(13:22):
with breath, in my opinion. Nowwith Scott and Tessa: clearly, I
was able to also choreographwhich is a singular role, if you
will, from the dance world butbecause they aren't dancers,
then that breath support, thatconnective tissue, becomes the
(13:43):
thread of the dance world totheir world, and similarly at
the COC. From time to time, Ialso explore staging and
movement with the singers, whenthere are asks on the stage that
seem to impede their ability tomake their best sound. You know,
(14:06):
we'll investigate that andexplore that, and try to find
physical solutions that willmeet the high standard of the
artistic director or thechoreographer from the main
stage.
Julie McIsaac (14:19):
Yeah! Well, this is really resonating with me,
Jen, in the sense that when Iwatched Tessa and Scott skate,
and when I think about havingwitnessed some of your work with
the Ensemble artists, is thatthe through line of storytelling
can come to the fore. So,there's the sense that there's a
continuous flow of storytellingor artistic expression that is
being supported by that verysubtle work, and that's very
(14:41):
gratifying as somewhat as beingthat from that director
position, or thatdramaturg-storyteller position,
that's so exciting when anartist can bring that.
Jennifer Swan (14:49):
I agree. And what I love about what you just said
is that breath is supportingaction, and I do think that that
is so important to understandthat, ultimately, what is
significant and what draws anaudience member to a performance
be it on ice, or on the stagedancing or at the opera is the
(15:16):
honesty with which the intentionis being delivered. And if
breath can be part albeit asmall part of carrying that
intention to the audience, it'svery gratifying to see that work
play out in all of the multipleforms of storytelling that I've
(15:39):
had the opportunity to work in,and it certainly is when they
are the most successful. And,so, I just think it's so
important that we give them moreautonomy and more ownership, and
it's really interesting how itfrightens, even the singers, to
be given that. I always say toall the girls at studio (I'm
digressing for a second) but Iwill say, you know, "It's not
(15:59):
about getting to stay out late;that's not a right. Your right
is what you put in your body,who you let touch your body, how
you train and shape your body."Those are huge responsibilities
and they have that from day one,right? But we don't celebrate
that as being a huge thing; we,sort of, remove that from them.
Robyn Grant-Moran (16:22):
I think it's such a beautiful message for
anybody who sings or dances whois listening. In working with
the young artists of theEnsemble Studio, you often talk
about how Liz Upchurch, the Headof the Ensemble Studio, and
Wendy Nielsen, the Head VocalCoach, are the ears in a
training session, and you're theeyes. What are you looking out
(16:43):
for during the physical act ofsinging?
Jennifer Swan (16:46):
It's been very interesting when we're in the
room. Often when either Wendy orLiz hear something in the sound,
I have also detected somethingphysically. So, what I'm
watching for is how the body isresponding to the production of
the sound, and by that I mean Iam looking at deviations in the
(17:11):
spine, simple things likeshoulder lifts, heel lifts, when
people want to sing high findingthe body getting elevated and
out of their support. Sometimesit's simple things where the
mouth becomes more distorted, orthe jaw starts to respond to an
(17:37):
uneven or unsupported vibratothings like that. Keeping in
mind that I have an opportunitywith Ensemble members to work
with them privately every week,so, I start to have, through my
own training with them, a realunderstanding of their body
mechanics. So, they're not acompletely foreign entity to me
(18:01):
when we are all integrated youknow, working collaboratively at
the same time. That doesn'tmean, though, that these things
can't be seen in one-offsituations and masterclasses
because I have had the goodfortune of touring in North
America to do this work, and,over time, these physical
(18:24):
deviations are much moreconsistent than one might think
across multiple singers, bothmale and female, and different
voice types, as well. So, that'show we find and hone in on the
point of change that we want toor the point of inflection, if
(18:48):
you will, that we want oursingers to work on with us.
Julie McIsaac (18:53):
So, Jen, we've been talking a lot about how
singers make music and how theymove in making that music, but
we're curious (18:59):
what music moves you personally? What's on your
playlist right now?
Jennifer Swan (19:03):
I love Bruce Springsteen's old stuff, I love
Tom Waits' vocally distressedvoice, I love Sufjan Stevens,
and currently, during COVID Ihave really been over the moon
to hear a former student ofmine, Iain MacNeil posting the
(19:24):
most stunning, stunning acousticrenditions of songs. I think
that he has partnered withfriends and family at different
times. That has brought metremendous joy through COVID and
reminding me of reallyspectacularly lovely time spent
with him.
Julie McIsaac (19:44):
Wonderful! Thanks so much, Jen, for joining us
today.
Jennifer Swan (19:47):
You guys were lovely. Thank you so much!
Julie McIsaac (19:57):
Robyn, I'm really curious
training as a singer, what areyou thinking about in the wake
of our having just had thatgreat conversation with
Jennifer?
Robyn Grant-Moran (20:05):
What really struck me was how the breath is
so dynamic and moving in hermodel of body usage. It's not
the be all and end all, but thebreath is really what energizes
the performance; it's much morefluid. And I've been taking
music lessons, in one way oranother, pretty much my whole
life, and breath has always beenreally important. Everyone
(20:28):
really has their own unique anddistinct ways of speaking about
breath.
Julie McIsaac (20:32):
Yeah! I love what Jennifer was saying about how,
you know, artistic endeavors arepoetic and magical, and were
inspired by the music and allthat, but that high-level
exquisite performance that we'reall aiming for, there's a lot of
concise collaborativecommunication and pragmatic
strategy that has to work itsway in there in order to make
that happen, and it's a finebalance that, you know, you need
(20:53):
that bespoke approach, knowingthat no singer will respond to
the same note in the same wayand different spaces and
stagings require differentthings. And happily, someone who
can give us some insight intothe requirements of different
stagings is mezzo-sopranoKrisztina Szab.
Robyn Grant-Moran (21:10):
Krisztina is an accomplished mezzo-soprano
who's known for her range,singing everything from Baroque
to contemporary music. She beganher professional opera career
with the COC Ensemble Studio in1998, and she has been a
familiar face for COC audiencesever since, having appeared in
several of the company'sproductions over the past two
decades.
Julie McIsaac (21:30):
In addition to her experience as a performer,
recently Krisztina was appointedAssistant Professor of Voice and
Opera at the University ofBritish Columbia's School of
Music. Given her background asboth a singer and a teacher, we
are looking forward to exploringthe topic of opera and the body
through Krisztina's unique lens.
Robyn Grant-Moran (21:47):
But before we begin, we want to mention,
during her time in the EnsembleStudio, Krisztina sang the title
role in "The Rape of Lucretia,"something that does come up in
our conversation. The productionisn't explored in great detail,
given the specific focus oftoday's episode, but there's
still mention of sexualviolence, and so we'd like to
offer this content warning.
Julie McIsaac (22:17):
Krisztina, really great to have you here with us
today. Now, we're curious aboutperforming on stage, you know,
accompanied by live music, it'san incomparable feeling. And
could you describe for us foryou, the best you can that
sensation that you feel when youare making and embodying that
music onstage? What does thatfeel like?
Krisztina Szabo (22:36):
Well, I have to say it is one of the most
remarkable experiences to be ona stage at the COC making music
in that space. Space definitelyinfluences how you produce
sound. So, as opera singers, weare trained to make maximum
(22:57):
volume, maximum resonance, andwhen you're singing at the COC,
you have the gift of a wonderfulacoustic, but you're also trying
to fill the space with yoursound as much as possible, as
opposed to a smaller venue whereyou can have a little more
intimacy. In a space like theFour Seasons Centre [for the
Performing Arts], you have a2,000-seat, you know, audience
(23:18):
and all those faces looking atyou and being with you in that
experience. So, the adrenalineis very high.
Julie McIsaac (23:28):
And I've sometimes heard people talk
about that distinction betweenthat adrenaline that feels,
like, that excitement and thatadrenaline that feels like that,
like nervous or anxious energy.
Do you have any experiences or,you know, stories to share with
us about riding that wave?
Krisztina Szabo (23:44):
Absolutely. Um, I have to say a lot goes into
the preparation. So, the moreprepared you are, the more
rehearsed you are, the moregrounded you feel. You will
always experience adrenaline nomatter what show is going on,
but I like the fact that, youknow, you can rehearse several
weeks in advance and we'verehearsed, when the adrenaline
(24:05):
hits in, your body can take overin, sort of, an automatic pilot
feeling. How I manage myadrenaline, I have to say, I was
thinking about this, I have afew stories from the COC very
specifically. Two particularinstances: the first one was
singing "Erwartung" with theCOC. I've never done a one-woman
show ever before doing my debutsinging that role at the COC,
(24:30):
and, you know, you're wrapped ina straitjacket, and you're left
on stage that is the firstscene in the show. So, I'm left
alone, trapped in a straitjacketnot, like, super trapped
because it's loosely bound but,you know, the assistant stage
manager would, you know, tie meup and then leave, and there was
(24:52):
this moment of, "Oh my God, I amby myself here on this stage,
this empty stage Is this goingto be okay?" So, yeah, you know,
and then the curtain goes up andyou see the darkness but you see
also, sort of, bodies out in theaudience, so, then the room gets
bigger, and then the light goesup on [COC Music Director
(25:13):
Johannes Debus], and it was themost terrifying feeling, but as
soon as the first chords startedto be played that sense of like,
"Oh, yes. I'm going to be okay,we've done this before." Having
(25:40):
to breathe through it, I thinkthat's the most nervous I've
been, because when you're doinga show with other people, you
feed off the energy of otherpeople; there's a comfort and a
familiarity and, you know,"strength in numbers," so to
speak. But when you're leftalone on stage, I don't think
I've ever experienced anythingquite like that adrenaline rush
(26:00):
and fear, frankly. And I'm notsomeone who gets afraid,
necessarily; I don't I sufferperformance anxiety. So, that
was very unique. The secondstore I had was doing "Love From
Afar," where I had to enter frombeneath the stage in a big
cloth. So, I was preset underthe stage and this massive sheet
(26:23):
that would span the entirestage once it unfurled was,
sort of, wrapped around me. So,there's also a claustrophobic,
sort of, feeling as they lift upthe dancers on stage would
pull each end and then I'd, sortof, be unveiled. But there's a
moment where I'm literallysurrounded in sheet on all sides
(26:45):
of me, and then that moment of,"Okay, is everything going to
work as I come up?" and thatadrenaline of, again, you're so
alone in your process in thatmoment and then, once you're
revealed, you're in it butthere's that moment before
everything begins that can betruly terrifying it and that one
(27:08):
is another one that definitelywas nerve-racking for me.
Julie McIsaac (27:12):
So interesting, because I think about many of us
who are audience members so,who are they're receiving the
performance and receiving themusic and, for us, it's a
communal experience, you know?
We know we have those audiencemembers on either side and
there's this huge orchestra, andit's a very populated
experience. So, to contrast thatwith what you're describing
about the aloneness or theisolation that you feel in those
moments is really fascinating!
Robyn Grant-Moran (27:33):
Yes, so I'm curious about the physicality of
the difference between a concertperformance and an operatic
performance like, a fullystaged opera. Because in a
concert, you know, you'rewearing a beautiful dress,
you're standing quite still,relatively speaking, you're not
running around. But in a fullystaged opera, like you said, you
(27:54):
could be in a straitjacket, youcould be coming lifted up
through the floor, you might berunning around or singing laying
on your back. Can you talk aboutthe physicality of that a bit?
Krisztina Szabo (28:08):
Absolutely. Um, I love the physicality of opera
because there's a freedom thatyou have, you know? Standing
still in a concert performanceis actually challenging; you
can't move. So, I often willfinish a concert and think, "Oh,
I can't feel my feet," becauseeverything's frozen in place.
Whereas in an opera, you canfully embody that physically.
(28:30):
So, yes, there are absolutelychallenges depending on the
staging and I've had somedefinitely challenging moments,
but I love the physicalitybecause I can fully be in my
body in a way that I can't be ina concert performance. I have
had some fun challenges in COCproductions: back to Erwartung,
(28:51):
we had these quick changesbetween scenes; the lights would
go down, and we'd have to runinto the next position. So,
running and singing is not myfavorite! So, as soon as you run
your breath gets a little highin your body, so, trying to get
your breath back down lower andfeeling more grounded not
winded to start your nextphrase, especially in an opera
(29:11):
where again, it's a big sing,big orchestra you have to feel
grounded and your breath has tobe grounded. So, those quick
bursts of running is not myfavourite to do. Doing "[The]
Barber of Seville," running upand downstairs of the classic
COC set of The Barber ofSeville, also not my favourite.
So, maybe running is not myfavorite for staging and operas.
(29:33):
Other than that, it's prettyfun! We've worked with a
wonderful fight director at theCOC, and I'm gonna forget his
names, but it's James something[Binkley] and he's wonderful.
So, I've worked with him on TheRape of Lucretia, which is
extremely physical, and also"The Handmaid's Tale," also
extremely physical where I wasplaying Offred in "the time
before" and being hauled aroundby people, and screaming, and
(29:58):
then singing. So, it was reallywonderful to have someone who
could work in the physicalityinto the role, so that I was
able to then sing well as well,so. But it's actually quite
thrilling.
Julie McIsaac (30:12):
Krisztina, we think that was James Binkley,
who's likely the fight directorthat you worked with?
Krisztina Szabo (30:16):
Yes.
Julie McIsaac (30:17):
We'd love for you to explain to the listeners a
little bit (30:19):
what is it that a fight director does, and how do
you, as a singer, collaboratewith them in bringing that
staging to life?
Krisztina Szabo (30:26):
A fight director will come into
rehearsal when there's any sortof physical contact within the
staging. So, I've seen him helpstage fight scenes and that
includes sword work, physicalfights. The first time I worked
with him was for The Rape ofLucretia. So, we had to stage a
rape scene, which was incrediblyphysical and my colleague,
(30:48):
Andrew Tees, had to literallyhaul me over his shoulder at one
point, throw me down, and thenJames's job is A) to make it
look realistic but also to makeit safe for the singers, so that
we're not injuring ourselves,we're able to sing which is
always the priority and to doit safely but also
(31:10):
realistically. He wasinstrumental in making those
scenes come together and make aplan for you as well. So,
there's always a very, veryspecific plan. And then we would
rehearse with him in terms of,like, getting the scenes set,
but then he would come in tomake sure we were sticking to
(31:30):
the plan, and it was workingwell, so, we were always working
it in. He would check forsafety, we would do a light run
of the scene just to make surethat we were having the right
contact points, that we werealways safe, and that we were
feeling comfortable. He waswonderful and he's very, very
specific and I always reallyenjoyed that about his process.
Julie McIsaac (31:53):
Now, Krisztina, we're curious. So, you're an
accomplished performer, you'veappeared on the COC stage many,
many a time. But, in addition toyour artistic practice, you're
also a teacher, and we'recurious: over the course of your
career, how have you seen operatraining develop with respect to
performance and theunderstanding of the entirety of
the human body, the full humanbeing? So, the training beyond
(32:14):
the vocal cords. Could you talkto us a little bit about that?
Krisztina Szabo (32:18):
Absolutely. Um, I've been singing for 22+ years
professionally and it's changeda lot in that time: there's
definitely a lot more emphasison bodywork in opera these days,
making sure that we are fullyintegrated in our bodies. It was
a lot about the voice I mean,even, um, you know, we, kind of,
(32:39):
joke about the "park and bark"that opera used to be, you know
there's no more park and bark;you have to be an excellent
actor on stage and that means tobe physically your best. Opera
roles onstage these days, it canbe physically demanding, so a
singer has to be in touch withtheir body, how it works best.
And I've seen a lot moreemphasis on body work in terms
(33:03):
of the link between "[the]Alexander Technique," also just
training, going to the gym, andbeing physically fit, your your
body's optimum physicality, yogathere's a lot more emphasis on
these, sort of, alternatebodywork ideas within singing,
and that was definitely evolvingthroughout my career. And then,
(33:28):
also, the demands emotionallyfor singers, you know? We are
sensitive creatures and we'rebeing asked to be vulnerable on
stage. For me personally, it wasalways an opportunity to access
emotions that I maybe wouldn'tnecessarily be able to reflect
in real life, but you're alsoprocessing things in a different
(33:50):
way on stage, and deeper. So,the emphasis on making sure
you're emotionally okay andthat, for me, has definitely
been more of an emphasisthroughout my career, doing that
emotional work whether it be atherapist, or a coach, a life
coach, someone that gets you,sort of, in your body again.
Julie McIsaac (34:10):
it's really interesting to think about this
"holistic approach." So, inaddition to the voice, what are
all the other, sort of, branchesof the tree that are helping to
bring the full human, the fullperformer to the fore?
Robyn Grant-Moran (34:21):
You mentioned the Alexander Technique. I've
practiced the AlexanderTechnique, I've taken regular
lessons, it's a posturalprotocol, and it's about
efficiency of accessing yourbody, getting maximum return for
minimal effort, for the leastamount of wear and tear. And I'm
curious [about] how thatimpacted your practice?
Krisztina Szabo (34:44):
I haven't done a lot of Alexander Technique. I
did do a few sessions in asummer program with the Queen of
Puddings Music Theatre, wherethey had an Alexander Technique
person come in and we didsessions. And it was
revolutionary at the time forme: she literally, like, moved
my limbs into an alignment and Ihave never felt so aligned in my
(35:06):
life. And it was delightful.
That was quite profound for me.
There's a few concepts fromAlexander that have really
resonated for me (35:13):
the idea of the spine supporting and that
each vertebrae stacks on oneanother, and that sense of space
in between each vertebrae. I'vebeen doing specifically a
breathwork course her name isAllison Jean Taylor and she's
wonderful. And the firstsession, the question she posed
to us because as singers wetalk a lot about breath support
(35:36):
and she posed, "How doesbreath support you?" which
flipped the switch. And it wasan exploration of breath that I
haven't thought about as asinger, and, you know, I've been
doing this a while! But thespace within you and how that
breath actually informs yourstructure, to be supportive as
(35:59):
you walk through life. Becauseas singers, also, we're all
about delivering outeverything's about "out, out
out." We're very frontal. And,as a teacher, I've talked a lot
about 360 breath, but what doesthat actually mean, and how do
you experience it in your bodyin a way that actually supports
(36:22):
you as you produce sound, as youjust walk through life? And that
felt very revolutionary.
Robyn Grant-Moran (36:28):
And I'm wondering for you, as a singer,
if you have any standoutmemories of being viscerally or
physically impacted by music?
When you are impacted physicallyor viscerally while you're
performing, how do you negotiatethat, so it doesn't impact your
performance itself?
Krisztina Szabo (36:46):
I'm always viscerally affected by music. If
you're talking about volume,there's nothing quite like the
"Ride of the Valkyries," youknow? Getting that full impact
of the orchestra. I enjoy thosemoments that you literally feel
the music rushing through yourbody as a whole experience.
That's why I'm in this business.
(37:20):
And then, you know, there areother moments where your
colleagues on stage, whosewonderful voices are extremely
loud, and you're thinking, "Imight go deaf in this ear from
you at a later point." I don'tenjoy it quite so much. For me,
the making of music process is avisceral experience: to be
(37:42):
singing with other people, tofeel the vibration of that other
person's voice in your body, tofeel the vibration of the
orchestra passing through yourbody, it's really thrilling. So,
I don't think I get distractedby it; I think I just enjoy and
ride the wave.
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:00):
Are there times where you get overwhelmed
by the sensations?
Krisztina Szabo (38:06):
Yes, absolutely. Um, for me,
emotionally overwhelmed. Thereis something quite moving about
that visceral feeling of musicin your body. I'm an extremely
emotional person, so I'velearned to manage that by
allowing myself that moment ofoverwhelm and then to just
(38:28):
incorporate it and move throughit. Otherwise, I'd be weeping
all the time, and I've actuallylearned to sing while crying!
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:37):
That's a really difficult thing.
Krisztina Szabo (38:39):
I know. I know.
But, as I said, I'm an extremelyemotional person, so I've had
to, sort of, train myself notfull sob but be able to, like,
be crying and still sing. It'sjust keeping your breath low for
sure. But the tears and, youknow, your nose running when you
start to cry that's actuallywhat interferes more than
anything for me!
Julie McIsaac (39:03):
All that moisture! I mean, a certain
amount of moisture's good, butthere's a cut off point at which
it stops being useful.
Krisztina Szabo (39:10):
Yes.
Julie McIsaac (39:12):
So, right before COVID hit, Krisztina, I know you
were at the COC performing in[Engelbert] Humperdinck's
"Hansel & Gretel," which alsoinvolved some members of the
Ensemble Studio, and you'veworked with artists from the
Ensemble on the workshopping of"Fantasma" so, their upcoming
Opera for Young Audiences andnow, being a graduate of the
Ensemble Studio yourself (39:28):
what's it like being on the other side
of that training?
Krisztina Szabo (39:33):
It feels very strange that I am, you know, 20
years past my Ensemble years; itfeels like yesterday that I was
still a young artist. So,there's always a sense of
family, you know, now I'm sortof, like, the aunt or the mom of
the group; I've graduated tothat but it still feels like
(39:53):
we're part of the same family. Ifeel a deep sense of connection
to the COC and the EnsembleStudio and, if anyone needs me,
any career advice or vocaladvice, I'm fully there for an
Ensemble Studio member, I wouldgive them anything because I
know exactly how that process isand the challenges that they
face. Maybe I shouldn't besaying that publicly!
Julie McIsaac (40:17):
You might get a lot of emails!
Krisztina Szabo (40:19):
Exactly.
Julie McIsaac (40:20):
But I'm curious, Krisztina, if you could, sort
of, look back on your Ensembleself, you know, 20+ years ago:
what do you wish you had knownthen that you know now?
Krisztina Szabo (40:30):
Oh, wow! I don't know, I feel like I
learned so much in those I wasin it for three years, and I
knew nothing coming in there; Ihad been in England just prior
to that experience and at theGuildhall [School of Music &
Drama] and I wasn't in operaschool. I had a different
trajectory to the performingcareer, so, I knew very little
coming into it. I learned a lotabout time management, and vocal
(40:52):
management, and managing peopleand personalities, and then
there was the music! The music,learning how to survive three
coachings a day, and it wasoverwhelming at times there
were times, you know, that Iended up weeping, there was a
lot of crying involved because Iwas overwhelmed by the schedule,
(41:13):
overwhelmed by the process andjust trying to survive it. What
I would say to my younger selfis, "Maybe don't take everything
quite so personally," and that"It's going to be okay, you're
going to get through this, andit's going to make you the
artist and human that you aretoday." And even our idea of
breath support, you know (41:35):
we're moving away from calling it
"support" because there's arigidity in the word of support.
So, "breath energy" is the termthat vocal pedagogy is leaning
towards now.
Julie McIsaac (41:50):
And in terms of vocal pedagogy and the students
that you're working with andcoaching now, Krisztina: could
you share with us a little bitabout what you're enjoying most
about having that opportunity toteach, and then, with that,
maybe something that's bringingyou joy and inspiration in terms
of this next generation that'scoming up?
Krisztina Szabo (42:08):
Well, I'm really enjoying, at the moment,
my new position at theUniversity of British Columbia.
We are teaching in person, whichnot everyone can say at the
moment. And there is, again,something about physically being
in a room with other singersthat you just don't get through
a screen, so, that is giving mejoy. And I realized that
(42:28):
connection is extremelyimportant for my students: I
think I'm the only person thatthey see in person at the moment
for their, you know, lessons,weekly. And, again, you respond
to people's energy, you respondto people's voices in a room, in
a different way than you wouldthrough a screen, so, I have the
(42:51):
good fortune of that visceralexperience right now. In
general, this is my eighth yearof teaching, which feels very
strange again, it feels likeyesterday that I just started.
As a singer, you're, sort of, sointernal; you're in your own
process, you're a littleselfish, you know? And
everything's, sort of, aninternal, internal, internal. As
a teacher, you have to make thatprocess external for your
(43:16):
students in order to explain howthat works. And to articulate
concepts that I had, you know? Itook it in and ejected how I got
there. So it's been quite aprocess for me to be able to
articulate those things to mykids. But what has struck me the
(43:36):
most is how much I care abouttheir success; I care more about
them doing well and feeling goodabout themselves, and feeling
good about their voices than Ido about my own. You know, I do
feel a little like a mom in thatregard. You know, I have a
daughter and I feel the same wayabout her; I would give anything
(43:58):
for her to feel that, you know,empowered in what she's doing.
So, it's been really exciting tobe part of someone else's
journey, which I didn't reallythink about, really, until I was
in it with the teaching.
Julie McIsaac (44:14):
Yeah! Well, as someone who's witnessed you on
stage, and in the rehearsalhall, Krisztina, I'm looking
forward to that return when Imight witness that and hear you
again. But, at the same time,it's exciting to hear about your
work with these young artists,and I'm excited for them that
they get that opportunity towork with you.
Krisztina Szabo (44:31):
Thank you.
Julie McIsaac (44:37):
So, Robyn, have you received any, sort of weird
communication in the past, like,from your music teachers about
how to change something orimplement something?
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:48):
Oh my gosh, so many, so many. And they're
not weird, per se; they've beenfascinating. I've experienced,
you know, singing from the "hooha."
Julie McIsaac (45:00):
Okay.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:00):
And I'm not quite sure, like, "Am I sucking
air up? Am I engaging my pelvicfloor?" I don't really know what
that command actually meansphysically like, what's being
sought after. I've, you know,been told to walk "tits up,"
which I always think is a funnyone, I enjoyed that. Because
(45:22):
there's no question about whatis being looked for in that
moment; it's so crass, it'smemorable, and it's goofy, and
it's fun. They're looking at mycore as more of a balance ball,
or my core is a corset. There'sbeen a lot of them. How about
you?
Julie McIsaac (45:41):
Well, I found myself thinking more about how
when I'm working with singers oractors in a rehearsal, when
something happens that feelssuccessful that feels like
it's really close to that resultthat we're going, for that
moment that we're trying tobuild together as soon as
possible. I try to connect withthe person and go, "Okay, how
did that feel? What did you doto get there? What was the
process? What did you do?"because I'm aware of the fact
(46:03):
that we're building things inrehearsal but we want to then be
able to do that on multipleevenings of performance, right?
We want to create somethingthat's repeatable. So, to try to
get them to feel what that feltlike, and then to articulate
what was that process that theydid to create that result?
Because I think we can't reallyrepeat result but we can repeat
the process that got us there.
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:22):
Right. Well, yeah, you're building muscle
memory
Julie McIsaac (46:25):
Right, yeah!
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:26):
and if you're building muscle memory,
it's much easier to build it bysaying, "How did you feel in
that moment? What did you do tomake it happen?" and doing it in
a timely way, immediately after,rather than just letting it go
and being, like, "Oh, yeah! Likewhat you did 10 minutes ago
what did you do there? Thatreally worked." And it really
(46:47):
speaks to what Krisztina wassaying about her, like, having
that moment of stage fright whenshe was in the straitjacket.
Julie McIsaac (46:56):
Right! And then they were kicking in?
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:59):
Yeah. And, like, your body just has to go
Julie McIsaac (47:02):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:03):
and not let that burst of adrenaline take
over and compromise thephysicality of your singing.
Julie McIsaac (47:10):
Mm hmm. Yeah. The other thing that I'm really
thinking about that was sharedwith us was how training can be
as much about "undoing" as it isabout "doing," and that,
particularly when people areshifting between trainers and
teachers or if they're workingwith different stage directors
or different conductors, andwhat's asked of them that
(47:30):
sometimes they're having to stopdoing something that they've
been trained to do or are usedto doing.
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:35):
Yeah, that's been a lot of my training; it
has been a lot of, like, "Let'sundo the things This was a good
start but this particulartechnique might not be right for
your voice type."
Julie McIsaac (47:47):
Right.
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:48):
"Let's unlearn that technique and work
in something that is better foryour" or my "physicality,"
Julie McIsaac (47:57):
What were your thoughts, Robyn, on the idea of
instead of thinking of it as"breath support," moving to this
idea of "breath energy,"something that's more fluid?
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:05):
That was so great because it took the power
of the breath it changed thepower of the breath I was
going to say, "Took it away,"but it doesn't; the breath as
being this static thing thatfuels It's more than a fuel; it
is everything. And when you'relooking at more of a dynamic
(48:26):
breath, it's part of a wholepackage
Julie McIsaac (48:29):
A whole thing.
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:30):
Yeah. And that takes a lot of the pressure
off.
Julie McIsaac (48:36):
Yeah! I feel like I'm in the state of wonder
because I was aware of the factto which my larger muscle groups
are able to do things becausethey're what gets me up and down
the stairs, and you know, thoseother things that I do on a
daily basis, or if I'm at thegym, for example. But to bring
our attention to all thepresence of those smaller
muscles and bones that have thisgreat capacity to affect change,
(48:59):
and to help us create soundI'm just living in the wonder of
all that and it feels reallyempowering in terms of bringing
our attention to what our bodiesare capable of doing, rather
than how our bodies look, forexample,
Robyn Grant-Moran (49:11):
You know, we've got our muscles that allow
us to walk, and then we've gotour muscles that allow us to
breathe, and our muscles thatallow us to digest, and our
hearts to beat, and they don'tall work on the exact same
system, which is a really goodthing.
Julie McIsaac (49:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (49:27):
But it can also be difficult because those
big muscles want to do all thework.
Julie McIsaac (49:33):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (49:34):
And when you put all the focus on them, it
can obscure what feedback you doget from those little tiny,
really important synergistic andsupporting muscles.
Julie McIsaac (49:47):
Yeah. And what are your thoughts, Robyn, on
the We started to talk aboutautonomy, too, in terms of our
bodies and the connectionbetween the training that people
receive and the sense ofautonomy that they feel over
their own bodies and instrumentsor not.
Robyn Grant-Moran (50:00):
I was really struck when Jen was speaking. I
started singing when I was 25,as a means of claiming my body,
of reclaiming my body; I alwaysthought I had a hideous voice,
turns out it was just enormous.
Definitely can use sometweaking, needs more training.
But it wasn't that my voice wasbad, but I had said, "Okay, I'm
going to do this (50:26):
I'm going to learn how to sing because I'm
going to claim my voice," and,on some level, isn't that what
we're all doing? We're allclaiming our voices in our ways.
How we use our bodies is reallyreflective of how we take up
space.
Julie McIsaac (50:46):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (50:47):
How we move through the world whether
we're moving through all hunchedup and, like, crushed by the
weight of the world or tits up,chest open, like, very confident
shoulders down and back I wasreally wanting to take a session
with Jen by the end of ourconversation. But I've done the
(51:07):
Alexander Technique and I expectit's a very similar sensation.
Julie McIsaac (51:13):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (51:13):
Not necessarily the approach but the
end result, where you feel likeyou've got a whole new body.
Julie McIsaac (51:21):
Yeah,
Robyn Grant-Moran (51:22):
I used to walk out of my lessons where I
just had my teacher moving myhead a little bit, she would
just hold my head and move it,or take my arm and move it. And
then "Let's stand up and sitdown from a chair repeatedly."
And it sounds so absurd but I'dwalk out of there, and I'd feel
like I was six feet tall, andI'm just, like, ready to take on
(51:46):
the world.
Julie McIsaac (51:47):
Well, and Krisztina was sharing with us
how she's still training, like,how she's taking up and learning
more about that. And Jen alsoalluded to the fact that she's
learned through having thisopportunity to work with the
artists and her collaborators atthe Ensemble Studio and I'm
really struck by "Here we werechatting with two teachers who
talked about being learners."
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:05):
That teachers can openly and freely admit that
they're learning, too; that it'snot you don't reach a place
where you are the expert fully.
They clearly have more expertisethan your average bear, of
course, but they don't knoweverything yet.
Julie McIsaac (52:24):
And the question of "Will we ever know it?" So,
things have changed over thepast 20 years in terms of
approaches to singing, andapproaches to training, and
there might always be more toknow, and there might always be
a little bit of a mystery to itin terms of how those singers do
what they do, and have thatimpact on us when they perform.
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:41):
Well, yeah.
And we're all evolving togetherlike, concert halls and opera
houses, they're evolving, andhow we use our bodies within
them is evolving, and vocalpedagogy is evolving. It's never
ending and that's reallythrilling.
(53:07):
Thanks for joining us forEpisode 13.
Julie McIsaac (53:10):
We love hearing your comments and feedback, and
we look forward to hearing yourthoughts on what we talked about
today. You can tag us on socialat @CanadianOpera, or drop us a
note at audiences@coc.ca.
Robyn Grant-Moran (53:22):
We appreciate all the feedback we've received
so far, including your reviewson Apple Podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (53:27):
Next time on Key Change
connections between opera andspace not outer space but how
different opera creators explorelevels of scale and immersion in
their work.
Robyn Grant-Moran (53:37):
We'll be speaking with two special
guests (53:39):
American opera and theatre director Yuval Sharon,
and Canadian mezzo-soprano andmultidisciplinary artists Debi
Wong. Yuval and Debi are bothknown for their experimental
takes on opera production. We'llbe talking to them about pushing
the boundaries of opera'sphysical spaces, and exploring
the possibilities of virtualreality and site-specific opera.
Julie McIsaac (54:00):
Both of these guests have so many unique
creative projects to their name.
I can't wait.
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:05):
Me, too! Take care everyone. Be the first to
find out about free events andconcerts from the COC by signing
up for our monthly eOperanewsletter at coc.ca/eOpera.
Julie McIsaac (54:26):
Thank you to all of our supporters for making Key
Change possible. This week wewant to especially thank every
COC member, subscriber, anddonor for coming on this journey
with us as we explore new waysto share opera's unique power.
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:40):
So, to make sure you don't miss an episode,
subscribe to Key Change whereveryou get your podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (54:47):
Key Change is produced by the Canadian Opera
Company and hosted by RobynGrant-Moran and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:54):
To learn more about today's guests and see the
show notes, please visit ourwebsite at coc.ca/KeyChange.
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to "Key Change (00:00):
A COC Podcast," where we explore
everything about opera from afresh perspective.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:18):
We're your hosts, Robyn Grant-Moran
Julie McIsaac (00:21):
and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:23):
Today on Episode 13 of the podcast
exploring opera and the body.
When people think about opera,they're often envisioning the
artistic aspects (00:29):
the sets, the costumes, those amazing high
notes.
Julie McIsaac (00:35):
But there's a lot that happens, over the course of
years, to hit those high notesand to make those memorable
performances happen. In fact,there's a whole host of full
body training that goes intopreparing singers for the stage.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:47):
We touched on this in our "Ask Us Anything"
episode a few weeks back (00:49):
a group of high school students
asked "How are singers heard atthe back of the house without
using any microphones?" Wechatted about this with
performer Jonathan Christopher.
We also connected with Head ofthe COC Ensemble Studio Liz
Upchurch for a quick lesson onsound frequencies, and how the
human body can operate as aninstrument.
Julie McIsaac (01:10):
And today we're digging deeper with COC
Performance Kinetics Consultant,Jennifer Swan, and Canadian
mezzo-soprano Krisztina Szab.
With both of them, we're excitedto learn more about how
performers use their breath andbodies during performance, and
we'll also explore some newholistic ways that artists are
being trained for operaperformance.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:29):
Up first is our chat with Jennifer Swan.
Jennifer has been a PerformanceKinetics Consultant with the COC
since 2012. But she's alsoworked extensively with both
dancers and athletes, includingCanadian Olympic ice dancers
Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir. Ifyou remember their award-winning
"Carmen" routine from 2013, thatwas Jen's choreography!
Julie McIsaac (01:51):
With singers.
Jennifer specializes inrefining, strengthening, and
training the breath in verysubtle yet concrete ways, with
techniques that have evolvedfrom her extensive background in
dance and Pilates. We began byasking her what her work entails
when she's in training sessionswith the artists of the COC's
Ensemble Studio.
Jennifer Swan (02:21):
Part of my role at the COC, when working with
the singers, is to try toembrace a philosophy of
"listening to understand" ratherthan "listening to reply." So,
in simple terms, that means thatI meet my Ensemble members, in
the space in real time, withtheir immediate issues. I think
(02:45):
it's important not to disregardtheir training, before working
with me, to instill a sense ofpersonal autonomy. And the idea
at the end of the two-yeartraining process at the COC, is
that the singers leave as active"change agents," if you will, in
(03:06):
charge of their physicalrecruitment for breath. And that
sounds like a really simple,kind of, concept, but the
reality is what has becomevery clear to me over the years
is that most of the singersarrived with very little sense
of physical process, and thedemand of physical process in
(03:31):
sustaining their house andtheir house being, of course or
their housing, if you will,their body, what supports the
actual talent that they arrive,you know, at the door of the COC
with. It was very curious to mehow much of their training was
presented in metaphor andsubjective imagery, and the
(03:52):
reality is when we giveambiguous physical cues, you get
ambiguous physical outcomes. Onone occasion was in a
masterclass where a femalesinger, being encouraged to sing
lower and have more "foot" inher sound, was encouraged to
sing through her "whoo-hoo."
Robyn Grant-Moran (04:16):
That's a metaphor I've gotten regularly
in my vocal lessons as well. Iknow that one well.
Jennifer Swan (04:23):
Isn't that crazy?
So, that one really is Well, so
many things (04:31):
one, the identification of what the
"whoo-hoo" actually is could beproblematic; and then the cue in
and of itself doesn't reallygive any clear physical
instruction what to do with the"whoo-hoo," to manifest a
change, if you will. So, one ofthe things that we would do at
(04:52):
the COC, under my instruction,would be separating the
difference between core trainingand core strengthening,
specifically working on a pelvicfloor recruitment of the TA
[transverse abdominal] musclebeing your core strengthening;
and then the core training beingthe ask that follows meaning,
(05:17):
the larger, bigger asks of yourwork. The body demands a certain
kind of clarity, and I do thinkthat dance like opera being
interpreted as an art formsometimes, unfortunately, falls
prey to the idea that thingsneed to be more mystical and
(05:40):
"arty" than concrete andpragmatic. And I tend to lean
heavily on the side that processneeds to be as pragmatic as
possible, so as to assist thesingers that we're working with.
Julie McIsaac (05:55):
Can you talk to us a little bit about your
previous work with dancers orwith athletes, and what you were
drawing on to then offer to thesinging training?
Jennifer Swan (06:02):
What was clear to me [is] that the way we train
core training and dance withathletes, the way we recruit
muscles, the timing ofrecruitment, and the uniqueness
of all of those things to eachspecific body was a skill set
that I could bring to the table.
It also became clear to me thatthere was undoing that needed to
(06:25):
be done, in many cases, beforedoing could take part and,
again, a skill set that I'mreally comfortable with. Fast
forward to today, and I havebeen given the most incredible
opportunity by my colleague,Nina Draganic, to create a think
tank, if you will, at the COCEnsemble Studio; I have been
(06:51):
given every opportunity tocreate and develop a syllabus
for physical movement that isconnected to the immediate
on-site training of operasingers. Were it not for the
broad-reaching scope of Nina'svision, I would not be asked to
do this podcast, to have theopportunity to work with the
(07:16):
numerous Ensemble members that Ihave, or to have the joy in
working with my colleagues, LizUpchurch, Wendy Nielsen, Steven
Leigh, to name only a few. It isa unique opportunity that the
COC took an enormous risk to bethe first one-off in Canada to
develop and support this kind oftraining. I am enormously
(07:40):
grateful.
Julie McIsaac (07:43):
Could you tell us a little bit more, Jen, about
what's been so special in yourwork here with the Ensemble
Studio?
Jennifer Swan (07:49):
With the opera singers, there was this unique
place for me to learn, as well,how to silence the mind and
encourage them to be physicallypresent with the work, and allow
for the curiosity of the work toreprogram proprioception, and
(08:09):
then reprogram the intellectaround the process of training
breath. So, a huge part of thejob would be actually not
attending to every question thatis presented, but rather asking
people to physically do, feel,and experience, and then express
(08:33):
what that was. That's a veryunique approach to opera singing
but not a unique approach,obviously, to dance. It is also
quite one-on-one, as you canimagine, and, of course, the
other part of all of that is thepersonal intimacy: one of the
(08:53):
things that opera, and dance,and sport share is that they are
the instrument. So, there's afragility about that that we
have to be very cognizant aboutwhen we work with them: our
corrections resonate in adifferent way because they are
the instrument. So, yourcomments live for a longer
(09:18):
period of time, and in a muchmore relevant way with dancers,
athletes, singers. Part of mybackground was working with
Scott and Tessa, the Olympicskaters, and it was as true for
them as it is for my Ensemblemembers at the COC, and my
(09:39):
little five-year-old ballerinas.
Robyn Grant-Moran (09:42):
Just thinking about figure skating in general,
like, you're dancing on ice withknives on your feet. So, there's
something that does not computebut I'm [in] awe when I watch
it. You have the choreographerswho figure out their routine,
and they understand it's a veryrigid structure that you have to
(10:04):
hit these marks, and then youhave marks to aim for above and
beyond. You're working in thisvery rigid framework, creating
this beautiful artistry, allwith knives on your feet. How do
you augment all the other platesthat are spinning, so to speak?
Jennifer Swan (10:24):
My role in both the Olympic ice dance world and
my role in the COC operaticworld is virtually the same: I,
in both situations, have theopportunity to work with a
really talented ensemble teamand, in both worlds, they
(10:45):
function in a collaborativemanner. So, there are multiple
players. When you talk about themarks that have to be met: there
is a jumping coach, there is achoreographer (which I was),
there is the overseeing skatingteacher/instructor, and then
there can be a variety of otherindividuals based on whatever
(11:08):
the piece might be, i.e. in theworld of opera, a diction
specialist well, it might besomebody who is a specialist in
the hands from flamenco dancing,to make a comparison. What is
common about my work with bothis that I have the pleasure of
dealing with the connectivetissue that lives between all of
(11:32):
the snapshot photographicmoments. So, I was once asked
what made Scott and Tessa souniquely different, and why they
were Olympian winners, and theanswer for me, without question,
is that they skated theconnective tissue meaning that
between A and B is where lifelives.
(12:07):
Between Jump A and Swivel TurnB, it's the space between those
two entities where the audiencebreathes with you, where there
is a connection, where thethread of breath and movement
intersect. the thread ofintention, forward direction,
(12:30):
where the honesty of the artistslives. And what has been so
exciting for me is being able tocelebrate that concept with
individuals in what would seemdecidedly different realms, but
yet not. So, there's somethingabout having the opportunity to
(12:55):
work with people who are wantingto be courageous enough, to
challenge perception, to want tofalsify belief, rather than
reinforcing belief, and theindividuals in all of these
worlds are so ready and able todo that, and that process lives
(13:22):
with breath, in my opinion. Nowwith Scott and Tessa: clearly, I
was able to also choreographwhich is a singular role, if you
will, from the dance world butbecause they aren't dancers,
then that breath support, thatconnective tissue, becomes the
(13:43):
thread of the dance world totheir world, and similarly at
the COC. From time to time, Ialso explore staging and
movement with the singers, whenthere are asks on the stage that
seem to impede their ability tomake their best sound. You know,
(14:06):
we'll investigate that andexplore that, and try to find
physical solutions that willmeet the high standard of the
artistic director or thechoreographer from the main
stage.
Julie McIsaac (14:19):
Yeah! Well, this is really resonating with me,
Jen, in the sense that when Iwatched Tessa and Scott skate,
and when I think about havingwitnessed some of your work with
the Ensemble artists, is thatthe through line of storytelling
can come to the fore. So,there's the sense that there's a
continuous flow of storytellingor artistic expression that is
being supported by that verysubtle work, and that's very
(14:41):
gratifying as somewhat as beingthat from that director
position, or thatdramaturg-storyteller position,
that's so exciting when anartist can bring that.
Jennifer Swan (14:49):
I agree. And what I love about what you just said
is that breath is supportingaction, and I do think that that
is so important to understandthat, ultimately, what is
significant and what draws anaudience member to a performance
be it on ice, or on the stagedancing or at the opera is the
(15:16):
honesty with which the intentionis being delivered. And if
breath can be part albeit asmall part of carrying that
intention to the audience, it'svery gratifying to see that work
play out in all of the multipleforms of storytelling that I've
(15:39):
had the opportunity to work in,and it certainly is when they
are the most successful. And,so, I just think it's so
important that we give them moreautonomy and more ownership, and
it's really interesting how itfrightens, even the singers, to
be given that. I always say toall the girls at studio (I'm
digressing for a second) but Iwill say, you know, "It's not
(15:59):
about getting to stay out late;that's not a right. Your right
is what you put in your body,who you let touch your body, how
you train and shape your body."Those are huge responsibilities
and they have that from day one,right? But we don't celebrate
that as being a huge thing; we,sort of, remove that from them.
Robyn Grant-Moran (16:22):
I think it's such a beautiful message for
anybody who sings or dances whois listening. In working with
the young artists of theEnsemble Studio, you often talk
about how Liz Upchurch, the Headof the Ensemble Studio, and
Wendy Nielsen, the Head VocalCoach, are the ears in a
training session, and you're theeyes. What are you looking out
(16:43):
for during the physical act ofsinging?
Jennifer Swan (16:46):
It's been very interesting when we're in the
room. Often when either Wendy orLiz hear something in the sound,
I have also detected somethingphysically. So, what I'm
watching for is how the body isresponding to the production of
the sound, and by that I mean Iam looking at deviations in the
(17:11):
spine, simple things likeshoulder lifts, heel lifts, when
people want to sing high findingthe body getting elevated and
out of their support. Sometimesit's simple things where the
mouth becomes more distorted, orthe jaw starts to respond to an
(17:37):
uneven or unsupported vibratothings like that. Keeping in
mind that I have an opportunitywith Ensemble members to work
with them privately every week,so, I start to have, through my
own training with them, a realunderstanding of their body
mechanics. So, they're not acompletely foreign entity to me
(18:01):
when we are all integrated youknow, working collaboratively at
the same time. That doesn'tmean, though, that these things
can't be seen in one-offsituations and masterclasses
because I have had the goodfortune of touring in North
America to do this work, and,over time, these physical
(18:24):
deviations are much moreconsistent than one might think
across multiple singers, bothmale and female, and different
voice types, as well. So, that'show we find and hone in on the
point of change that we want toor the point of inflection, if
(18:48):
you will, that we want oursingers to work on with us.
Julie McIsaac (18:53):
So, Jen, we've been talking a lot about how
singers make music and how theymove in making that music, but
we're curious (18:59):
what music moves you personally? What's on your
playlist right now?
Jennifer Swan (19:03):
I love Bruce Springsteen's old stuff, I love
Tom Waits' vocally distressedvoice, I love Sufjan Stevens,
and currently, during COVID Ihave really been over the moon
to hear a former student ofmine, Iain MacNeil posting the
(19:24):
most stunning, stunning acousticrenditions of songs. I think
that he has partnered withfriends and family at different
times. That has brought metremendous joy through COVID and
reminding me of reallyspectacularly lovely time spent
with him.
Julie McIsaac (19:44):
Wonderful! Thanks so much, Jen, for joining us
today.
Jennifer Swan (19:47):
You guys were lovely. Thank you so much!
Julie McIsaac (19:57):
Robyn, I'm really curious
training as a singer, what areyou thinking about in the wake
of our having just had thatgreat conversation with
Jennifer?
Robyn Grant-Moran (20:05):
What really struck me was how the breath is
so dynamic and moving in hermodel of body usage. It's not
the be all and end all, but thebreath is really what energizes
the performance; it's much morefluid. And I've been taking
music lessons, in one way oranother, pretty much my whole
life, and breath has always beenreally important. Everyone
(20:28):
really has their own unique anddistinct ways of speaking about
breath.
Julie McIsaac (20:32):
Yeah! I love what Jennifer was saying about how,
you know, artistic endeavors arepoetic and magical, and were
inspired by the music and allthat, but that high-level
exquisite performance that we'reall aiming for, there's a lot of
concise collaborativecommunication and pragmatic
strategy that has to work itsway in there in order to make
that happen, and it's a finebalance that, you know, you need
(20:53):
that bespoke approach, knowingthat no singer will respond to
the same note in the same wayand different spaces and
stagings require differentthings. And happily, someone who
can give us some insight intothe requirements of different
stagings is mezzo-sopranoKrisztina Szab.
Robyn Grant-Moran (21:10):
Krisztina is an accomplished mezzo-soprano
who's known for her range,singing everything from Baroque
to contemporary music. She beganher professional opera career
with the COC Ensemble Studio in1998, and she has been a
familiar face for COC audiencesever since, having appeared in
several of the company'sproductions over the past two
decades.
Julie McIsaac (21:30):
In addition to her experience as a performer,
recently Krisztina was appointedAssistant Professor of Voice and
Opera at the University ofBritish Columbia's School of
Music. Given her background asboth a singer and a teacher, we
are looking forward to exploringthe topic of opera and the body
through Krisztina's unique lens.
Robyn Grant-Moran (21:47):
But before we begin, we want to mention,
during her time in the EnsembleStudio, Krisztina sang the title
role in "The Rape of Lucretia,"something that does come up in
our conversation. The productionisn't explored in great detail,
given the specific focus oftoday's episode, but there's
still mention of sexualviolence, and so we'd like to
offer this content warning.
Julie McIsaac (22:17):
Krisztina, really great to have you here with us
today. Now, we're curious aboutperforming on stage, you know,
accompanied by live music, it'san incomparable feeling. And
could you describe for us foryou, the best you can that
sensation that you feel when youare making and embodying that
music onstage? What does thatfeel like?
Krisztina Szabo (22:36):
Well, I have to say it is one of the most
remarkable experiences to be ona stage at the COC making music
in that space. Space definitelyinfluences how you produce
sound. So, as opera singers, weare trained to make maximum
(22:57):
volume, maximum resonance, andwhen you're singing at the COC,
you have the gift of a wonderfulacoustic, but you're also trying
to fill the space with yoursound as much as possible, as
opposed to a smaller venue whereyou can have a little more
intimacy. In a space like theFour Seasons Centre [for the
Performing Arts], you have a2,000-seat, you know, audience
(23:18):
and all those faces looking atyou and being with you in that
experience. So, the adrenalineis very high.
Julie McIsaac (23:28):
And I've sometimes heard people talk
about that distinction betweenthat adrenaline that feels,
like, that excitement and thatadrenaline that feels like that,
like nervous or anxious energy.
Do you have any experiences or,you know, stories to share with
us about riding that wave?
Krisztina Szabo (23:44):
Absolutely. Um, I have to say a lot goes into
the preparation. So, the moreprepared you are, the more
rehearsed you are, the moregrounded you feel. You will
always experience adrenaline nomatter what show is going on,
but I like the fact that, youknow, you can rehearse several
weeks in advance and we'verehearsed, when the adrenaline
(24:05):
hits in, your body can take overin, sort of, an automatic pilot
feeling. How I manage myadrenaline, I have to say, I was
thinking about this, I have afew stories from the COC very
specifically. Two particularinstances: the first one was
singing "Erwartung" with theCOC. I've never done a one-woman
show ever before doing my debutsinging that role at the COC,
(24:30):
and, you know, you're wrapped ina straitjacket, and you're left
on stage that is the firstscene in the show. So, I'm left
alone, trapped in a straitjacketnot, like, super trapped
because it's loosely bound but,you know, the assistant stage
manager would, you know, tie meup and then leave, and there was
(24:52):
this moment of, "Oh my God, I amby myself here on this stage,
this empty stage Is this goingto be okay?" So, yeah, you know,
and then the curtain goes up andyou see the darkness but you see
also, sort of, bodies out in theaudience, so, then the room gets
bigger, and then the light goesup on [COC Music Director
(25:13):
Johannes Debus], and it was themost terrifying feeling, but as
soon as the first chords startedto be played that sense of like,
"Oh, yes. I'm going to be okay,we've done this before." Having
(25:40):
to breathe through it, I thinkthat's the most nervous I've
been, because when you're doinga show with other people, you
feed off the energy of otherpeople; there's a comfort and a
familiarity and, you know,"strength in numbers," so to
speak. But when you're leftalone on stage, I don't think
I've ever experienced anythingquite like that adrenaline rush
(26:00):
and fear, frankly. And I'm notsomeone who gets afraid,
necessarily; I don't I sufferperformance anxiety. So, that
was very unique. The secondstore I had was doing "Love From
Afar," where I had to enter frombeneath the stage in a big
cloth. So, I was preset underthe stage and this massive sheet
(26:23):
that would span the entirestage once it unfurled was,
sort of, wrapped around me. So,there's also a claustrophobic,
sort of, feeling as they lift upthe dancers on stage would
pull each end and then I'd, sortof, be unveiled. But there's a
moment where I'm literallysurrounded in sheet on all sides
(26:45):
of me, and then that moment of,"Okay, is everything going to
work as I come up?" and thatadrenaline of, again, you're so
alone in your process in thatmoment and then, once you're
revealed, you're in it butthere's that moment before
everything begins that can betruly terrifying it and that one
(27:08):
is another one that definitelywas nerve-racking for me.
Julie McIsaac (27:12):
So interesting, because I think about many of us
who are audience members so,who are they're receiving the
performance and receiving themusic and, for us, it's a
communal experience, you know?
We know we have those audiencemembers on either side and
there's this huge orchestra, andit's a very populated
experience. So, to contrast thatwith what you're describing
about the aloneness or theisolation that you feel in those
moments is really fascinating!
Robyn Grant-Moran (27:33):
Yes, so I'm curious about the physicality of
the difference between a concertperformance and an operatic
performance like, a fullystaged opera. Because in a
concert, you know, you'rewearing a beautiful dress,
you're standing quite still,relatively speaking, you're not
running around. But in a fullystaged opera, like you said, you
(27:54):
could be in a straitjacket, youcould be coming lifted up
through the floor, you might berunning around or singing laying
on your back. Can you talk aboutthe physicality of that a bit?
Krisztina Szabo (28:08):
Absolutely. Um, I love the physicality of opera
because there's a freedom thatyou have, you know? Standing
still in a concert performanceis actually challenging; you
can't move. So, I often willfinish a concert and think, "Oh,
I can't feel my feet," becauseeverything's frozen in place.
Whereas in an opera, you canfully embody that physically.
(28:30):
So, yes, there are absolutelychallenges depending on the
staging and I've had somedefinitely challenging moments,
but I love the physicalitybecause I can fully be in my
body in a way that I can't be ina concert performance. I have
had some fun challenges in COCproductions: back to Erwartung,
(28:51):
we had these quick changesbetween scenes; the lights would
go down, and we'd have to runinto the next position. So,
running and singing is not myfavorite! So, as soon as you run
your breath gets a little highin your body, so, trying to get
your breath back down lower andfeeling more grounded not
winded to start your nextphrase, especially in an opera
(29:11):
where again, it's a big sing,big orchestra you have to feel
grounded and your breath has tobe grounded. So, those quick
bursts of running is not myfavourite to do. Doing "[The]
Barber of Seville," running upand downstairs of the classic
COC set of The Barber ofSeville, also not my favourite.
So, maybe running is not myfavorite for staging and operas.
(29:33):
Other than that, it's prettyfun! We've worked with a
wonderful fight director at theCOC, and I'm gonna forget his
names, but it's James something[Binkley] and he's wonderful.
So, I've worked with him on TheRape of Lucretia, which is
extremely physical, and also"The Handmaid's Tale," also
extremely physical where I wasplaying Offred in "the time
before" and being hauled aroundby people, and screaming, and
(29:58):
then singing. So, it was reallywonderful to have someone who
could work in the physicalityinto the role, so that I was
able to then sing well as well,so. But it's actually quite
thrilling.
Julie McIsaac (30:12):
Krisztina, we think that was James Binkley,
who's likely the fight directorthat you worked with?
Krisztina Szabo (30:16):
Yes.
Julie McIsaac (30:17):
We'd love for you to explain to the listeners a
little bit (30:19):
what is it that a fight director does, and how do
you, as a singer, collaboratewith them in bringing that
staging to life?
Krisztina Szabo (30:26):
A fight director will come into
rehearsal when there's any sortof physical contact within the
staging. So, I've seen him helpstage fight scenes and that
includes sword work, physicalfights. The first time I worked
with him was for The Rape ofLucretia. So, we had to stage a
rape scene, which was incrediblyphysical and my colleague,
(30:48):
Andrew Tees, had to literallyhaul me over his shoulder at one
point, throw me down, and thenJames's job is A) to make it
look realistic but also to makeit safe for the singers, so that
we're not injuring ourselves,we're able to sing which is
always the priority and to doit safely but also
(31:10):
realistically. He wasinstrumental in making those
scenes come together and make aplan for you as well. So,
there's always a very, veryspecific plan. And then we would
rehearse with him in terms of,like, getting the scenes set,
but then he would come in tomake sure we were sticking to
(31:30):
the plan, and it was workingwell, so, we were always working
it in. He would check forsafety, we would do a light run
of the scene just to make surethat we were having the right
contact points, that we werealways safe, and that we were
feeling comfortable. He waswonderful and he's very, very
specific and I always reallyenjoyed that about his process.
Julie McIsaac (31:53):
Now, Krisztina, we're curious. So, you're an
accomplished performer, you'veappeared on the COC stage many,
many a time. But, in addition toyour artistic practice, you're
also a teacher, and we'recurious: over the course of your
career, how have you seen operatraining develop with respect to
performance and theunderstanding of the entirety of
the human body, the full humanbeing? So, the training beyond
(32:14):
the vocal cords. Could you talkto us a little bit about that?
Krisztina Szabo (32:18):
Absolutely. Um, I've been singing for 22+ years
professionally and it's changeda lot in that time: there's
definitely a lot more emphasison bodywork in opera these days,
making sure that we are fullyintegrated in our bodies. It was
a lot about the voice I mean,even, um, you know, we, kind of,
(32:39):
joke about the "park and bark"that opera used to be, you know
there's no more park and bark;you have to be an excellent
actor on stage and that means tobe physically your best. Opera
roles onstage these days, it canbe physically demanding, so a
singer has to be in touch withtheir body, how it works best.
And I've seen a lot moreemphasis on body work in terms
(33:03):
of the link between "[the]Alexander Technique," also just
training, going to the gym, andbeing physically fit, your your
body's optimum physicality, yogathere's a lot more emphasis on
these, sort of, alternatebodywork ideas within singing,
and that was definitely evolvingthroughout my career. And then,
(33:28):
also, the demands emotionallyfor singers, you know? We are
sensitive creatures and we'rebeing asked to be vulnerable on
stage. For me personally, it wasalways an opportunity to access
emotions that I maybe wouldn'tnecessarily be able to reflect
in real life, but you're alsoprocessing things in a different
(33:50):
way on stage, and deeper. So,the emphasis on making sure
you're emotionally okay andthat, for me, has definitely
been more of an emphasisthroughout my career, doing that
emotional work whether it be atherapist, or a coach, a life
coach, someone that gets you,sort of, in your body again.
Julie McIsaac (34:10):
it's really interesting to think about this
"holistic approach." So, inaddition to the voice, what are
all the other, sort of, branchesof the tree that are helping to
bring the full human, the fullperformer to the fore?
Robyn Grant-Moran (34:21):
You mentioned the Alexander Technique. I've
practiced the AlexanderTechnique, I've taken regular
lessons, it's a posturalprotocol, and it's about
efficiency of accessing yourbody, getting maximum return for
minimal effort, for the leastamount of wear and tear. And I'm
curious [about] how thatimpacted your practice?
Krisztina Szabo (34:44):
I haven't done a lot of Alexander Technique. I
did do a few sessions in asummer program with the Queen of
Puddings Music Theatre, wherethey had an Alexander Technique
person come in and we didsessions. And it was
revolutionary at the time forme: she literally, like, moved
my limbs into an alignment and Ihave never felt so aligned in my
(35:06):
life. And it was delightful.
That was quite profound for me.
There's a few concepts fromAlexander that have really
resonated for me (35:13):
the idea of the spine supporting and that
each vertebrae stacks on oneanother, and that sense of space
in between each vertebrae. I'vebeen doing specifically a
breathwork course her name isAllison Jean Taylor and she's
wonderful. And the firstsession, the question she posed
to us because as singers wetalk a lot about breath support
(35:36):
and she posed, "How doesbreath support you?" which
flipped the switch. And it wasan exploration of breath that I
haven't thought about as asinger, and, you know, I've been
doing this a while! But thespace within you and how that
breath actually informs yourstructure, to be supportive as
(35:59):
you walk through life. Becauseas singers, also, we're all
about delivering outeverything's about "out, out
out." We're very frontal. And,as a teacher, I've talked a lot
about 360 breath, but what doesthat actually mean, and how do
you experience it in your bodyin a way that actually supports
(36:22):
you as you produce sound, as youjust walk through life? And that
felt very revolutionary.
Robyn Grant-Moran (36:28):
And I'm wondering for you, as a singer,
if you have any standoutmemories of being viscerally or
physically impacted by music?
When you are impacted physicallyor viscerally while you're
performing, how do you negotiatethat, so it doesn't impact your
performance itself?
Krisztina Szabo (36:46):
I'm always viscerally affected by music. If
you're talking about volume,there's nothing quite like the
"Ride of the Valkyries," youknow? Getting that full impact
of the orchestra. I enjoy thosemoments that you literally feel
the music rushing through yourbody as a whole experience.
That's why I'm in this business.
(37:20):
And then, you know, there areother moments where your
colleagues on stage, whosewonderful voices are extremely
loud, and you're thinking, "Imight go deaf in this ear from
you at a later point." I don'tenjoy it quite so much. For me,
the making of music process is avisceral experience: to be
(37:42):
singing with other people, tofeel the vibration of that other
person's voice in your body, tofeel the vibration of the
orchestra passing through yourbody, it's really thrilling. So,
I don't think I get distractedby it; I think I just enjoy and
ride the wave.
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:00):
Are there times where you get overwhelmed
by the sensations?
Krisztina Szabo (38:06):
Yes, absolutely. Um, for me,
emotionally overwhelmed. Thereis something quite moving about
that visceral feeling of musicin your body. I'm an extremely
emotional person, so I'velearned to manage that by
allowing myself that moment ofoverwhelm and then to just
(38:28):
incorporate it and move throughit. Otherwise, I'd be weeping
all the time, and I've actuallylearned to sing while crying!
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:37):
That's a really difficult thing.
Krisztina Szabo (38:39):
I know. I know.
But, as I said, I'm an extremelyemotional person, so I've had
to, sort of, train myself notfull sob but be able to, like,
be crying and still sing. It'sjust keeping your breath low for
sure. But the tears and, youknow, your nose running when you
start to cry that's actuallywhat interferes more than
anything for me!
Julie McIsaac (39:03):
All that moisture! I mean, a certain
amount of moisture's good, butthere's a cut off point at which
it stops being useful.
Krisztina Szabo (39:10):
Yes.
Julie McIsaac (39:12):
So, right before COVID hit, Krisztina, I know you
were at the COC performing in[Engelbert] Humperdinck's
"Hansel & Gretel," which alsoinvolved some members of the
Ensemble Studio, and you'veworked with artists from the
Ensemble on the workshopping of"Fantasma" so, their upcoming
Opera for Young Audiences andnow, being a graduate of the
Ensemble Studio yourself (39:28):
what's it like being on the other side
of that training?
Krisztina Szabo (39:33):
It feels very strange that I am, you know, 20
years past my Ensemble years; itfeels like yesterday that I was
still a young artist. So,there's always a sense of
family, you know, now I'm sortof, like, the aunt or the mom of
the group; I've graduated tothat but it still feels like
(39:53):
we're part of the same family. Ifeel a deep sense of connection
to the COC and the EnsembleStudio and, if anyone needs me,
any career advice or vocaladvice, I'm fully there for an
Ensemble Studio member, I wouldgive them anything because I
know exactly how that process isand the challenges that they
face. Maybe I shouldn't besaying that publicly!
Julie McIsaac (40:17):
You might get a lot of emails!
Krisztina Szabo (40:19):
Exactly.
Julie McIsaac (40:20):
But I'm curious, Krisztina, if you could, sort
of, look back on your Ensembleself, you know, 20+ years ago:
what do you wish you had knownthen that you know now?
Krisztina Szabo (40:30):
Oh, wow! I don't know, I feel like I
learned so much in those I wasin it for three years, and I
knew nothing coming in there; Ihad been in England just prior
to that experience and at theGuildhall [School of Music &
Drama] and I wasn't in operaschool. I had a different
trajectory to the performingcareer, so, I knew very little
coming into it. I learned a lotabout time management, and vocal
(40:52):
management, and managing peopleand personalities, and then
there was the music! The music,learning how to survive three
coachings a day, and it wasoverwhelming at times there
were times, you know, that Iended up weeping, there was a
lot of crying involved because Iwas overwhelmed by the schedule,
(41:13):
overwhelmed by the process andjust trying to survive it. What
I would say to my younger selfis, "Maybe don't take everything
quite so personally," and that"It's going to be okay, you're
going to get through this, andit's going to make you the
artist and human that you aretoday." And even our idea of
breath support, you know (41:35):
we're moving away from calling it
"support" because there's arigidity in the word of support.
So, "breath energy" is the termthat vocal pedagogy is leaning
towards now.
Julie McIsaac (41:50):
And in terms of vocal pedagogy and the students
that you're working with andcoaching now, Krisztina: could
you share with us a little bitabout what you're enjoying most
about having that opportunity toteach, and then, with that,
maybe something that's bringingyou joy and inspiration in terms
of this next generation that'scoming up?
Krisztina Szabo (42:08):
Well, I'm really enjoying, at the moment,
my new position at theUniversity of British Columbia.
We are teaching in person, whichnot everyone can say at the
moment. And there is, again,something about physically being
in a room with other singersthat you just don't get through
a screen, so, that is giving mejoy. And I realized that
(42:28):
connection is extremelyimportant for my students: I
think I'm the only person thatthey see in person at the moment
for their, you know, lessons,weekly. And, again, you respond
to people's energy, you respondto people's voices in a room, in
a different way than you wouldthrough a screen, so, I have the
(42:51):
good fortune of that visceralexperience right now. In
general, this is my eighth yearof teaching, which feels very
strange again, it feels likeyesterday that I just started.
As a singer, you're, sort of, sointernal; you're in your own
process, you're a littleselfish, you know? And
everything's, sort of, aninternal, internal, internal. As
a teacher, you have to make thatprocess external for your
(43:16):
students in order to explain howthat works. And to articulate
concepts that I had, you know? Itook it in and ejected how I got
there. So it's been quite aprocess for me to be able to
articulate those things to mykids. But what has struck me the
(43:36):
most is how much I care abouttheir success; I care more about
them doing well and feeling goodabout themselves, and feeling
good about their voices than Ido about my own. You know, I do
feel a little like a mom in thatregard. You know, I have a
daughter and I feel the same wayabout her; I would give anything
(43:58):
for her to feel that, you know,empowered in what she's doing.
So, it's been really exciting tobe part of someone else's
journey, which I didn't reallythink about, really, until I was
in it with the teaching.
Julie McIsaac (44:14):
Yeah! Well, as someone who's witnessed you on
stage, and in the rehearsalhall, Krisztina, I'm looking
forward to that return when Imight witness that and hear you
again. But, at the same time,it's exciting to hear about your
work with these young artists,and I'm excited for them that
they get that opportunity towork with you.
Krisztina Szabo (44:31):
Thank you.
Julie McIsaac (44:37):
So, Robyn, have you received any, sort of weird
communication in the past, like,from your music teachers about
how to change something orimplement something?
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:48):
Oh my gosh, so many, so many. And they're
not weird, per se; they've beenfascinating. I've experienced,
you know, singing from the "hooha."
Julie McIsaac (45:00):
Okay.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:00):
And I'm not quite sure, like, "Am I sucking
air up? Am I engaging my pelvicfloor?" I don't really know what
that command actually meansphysically like, what's being
sought after. I've, you know,been told to walk "tits up,"
which I always think is a funnyone, I enjoyed that. Because
(45:22):
there's no question about whatis being looked for in that
moment; it's so crass, it'smemorable, and it's goofy, and
it's fun. They're looking at mycore as more of a balance ball,
or my core is a corset. There'sbeen a lot of them. How about
you?
Julie McIsaac (45:41):
Well, I found myself thinking more about how
when I'm working with singers oractors in a rehearsal, when
something happens that feelssuccessful that feels like
it's really close to that resultthat we're going, for that
moment that we're trying tobuild together as soon as
possible. I try to connect withthe person and go, "Okay, how
did that feel? What did you doto get there? What was the
process? What did you do?"because I'm aware of the fact
(46:03):
that we're building things inrehearsal but we want to then be
able to do that on multipleevenings of performance, right?
We want to create somethingthat's repeatable. So, to try to
get them to feel what that feltlike, and then to articulate
what was that process that theydid to create that result?
Because I think we can't reallyrepeat result but we can repeat
the process that got us there.
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:22):
Right. Well, yeah, you're building muscle
memory
Julie McIsaac (46:25):
Right, yeah!
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:26):
and if you're building muscle memory,
it's much easier to build it bysaying, "How did you feel in
that moment? What did you do tomake it happen?" and doing it in
a timely way, immediately after,rather than just letting it go
and being, like, "Oh, yeah! Likewhat you did 10 minutes ago
what did you do there? Thatreally worked." And it really
(46:47):
speaks to what Krisztina wassaying about her, like, having
that moment of stage fright whenshe was in the straitjacket.
Julie McIsaac (46:56):
Right! And then they were kicking in?
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:59):
Yeah. And, like, your body just has to go
Julie McIsaac (47:02):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:03):
and not let that burst of adrenaline take
over and compromise thephysicality of your singing.
Julie McIsaac (47:10):
Mm hmm. Yeah. The other thing that I'm really
thinking about that was sharedwith us was how training can be
as much about "undoing" as it isabout "doing," and that,
particularly when people areshifting between trainers and
teachers or if they're workingwith different stage directors
or different conductors, andwhat's asked of them that
(47:30):
sometimes they're having to stopdoing something that they've
been trained to do or are usedto doing.
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:35):
Yeah, that's been a lot of my training; it
has been a lot of, like, "Let'sundo the things This was a good
start but this particulartechnique might not be right for
your voice type."
Julie McIsaac (47:47):
Right.
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:48):
"Let's unlearn that technique and work
in something that is better foryour" or my "physicality,"
Julie McIsaac (47:57):
What were your thoughts, Robyn, on the idea of
instead of thinking of it as"breath support," moving to this
idea of "breath energy,"something that's more fluid?
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:05):
That was so great because it took the power
of the breath it changed thepower of the breath I was
going to say, "Took it away,"but it doesn't; the breath as
being this static thing thatfuels It's more than a fuel; it
is everything. And when you'relooking at more of a dynamic
(48:26):
breath, it's part of a wholepackage
Julie McIsaac (48:29):
A whole thing.
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:30):
Yeah. And that takes a lot of the pressure
off.
Julie McIsaac (48:36):
Yeah! I feel like I'm in the state of wonder
because I was aware of the factto which my larger muscle groups
are able to do things becausethey're what gets me up and down
the stairs, and you know, thoseother things that I do on a
daily basis, or if I'm at thegym, for example. But to bring
our attention to all thepresence of those smaller
muscles and bones that have thisgreat capacity to affect change,
(48:59):
and to help us create soundI'm just living in the wonder of
all that and it feels reallyempowering in terms of bringing
our attention to what our bodiesare capable of doing, rather
than how our bodies look, forexample,
Robyn Grant-Moran (49:11):
You know, we've got our muscles that allow
us to walk, and then we've gotour muscles that allow us to
breathe, and our muscles thatallow us to digest, and our
hearts to beat, and they don'tall work on the exact same
system, which is a really goodthing.
Julie McIsaac (49:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (49:27):
But it can also be difficult because those
big muscles want to do all thework.
Julie McIsaac (49:33):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (49:34):
And when you put all the focus on them, it
can obscure what feedback you doget from those little tiny,
really important synergistic andsupporting muscles.
Julie McIsaac (49:47):
Yeah. And what are your thoughts, Robyn, on
the We started to talk aboutautonomy, too, in terms of our
bodies and the connectionbetween the training that people
receive and the sense ofautonomy that they feel over
their own bodies and instrumentsor not.
Robyn Grant-Moran (50:00):
I was really struck when Jen was speaking. I
started singing when I was 25,as a means of claiming my body,
of reclaiming my body; I alwaysthought I had a hideous voice,
turns out it was just enormous.
Definitely can use sometweaking, needs more training.
But it wasn't that my voice wasbad, but I had said, "Okay, I'm
going to do this (50:26):
I'm going to learn how to sing because I'm
going to claim my voice," and,on some level, isn't that what
we're all doing? We're allclaiming our voices in our ways.
How we use our bodies is reallyreflective of how we take up
space.
Julie McIsaac (50:46):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (50:47):
How we move through the world whether
we're moving through all hunchedup and, like, crushed by the
weight of the world or tits up,chest open, like, very confident
shoulders down and back I wasreally wanting to take a session
with Jen by the end of ourconversation. But I've done the
(51:07):
Alexander Technique and I expectit's a very similar sensation.
Julie McIsaac (51:13):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (51:13):
Not necessarily the approach but the
end result, where you feel likeyou've got a whole new body.
Julie McIsaac (51:21):
Yeah,
Robyn Grant-Moran (51:22):
I used to walk out of my lessons where I
just had my teacher moving myhead a little bit, she would
just hold my head and move it,or take my arm and move it. And
then "Let's stand up and sitdown from a chair repeatedly."
And it sounds so absurd but I'dwalk out of there, and I'd feel
like I was six feet tall, andI'm just, like, ready to take on
(51:46):
the world.
Julie McIsaac (51:47):
Well, and Krisztina was sharing with us
how she's still training, like,how she's taking up and learning
more about that. And Jen alsoalluded to the fact that she's
learned through having thisopportunity to work with the
artists and her collaborators atthe Ensemble Studio and I'm
really struck by "Here we werechatting with two teachers who
talked about being learners."
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:05):
That teachers can openly and freely admit that
they're learning, too; that it'snot you don't reach a place
where you are the expert fully.
They clearly have more expertisethan your average bear, of
course, but they don't knoweverything yet.
Julie McIsaac (52:24):
And the question of "Will we ever know it?" So,
things have changed over thepast 20 years in terms of
approaches to singing, andapproaches to training, and
there might always be more toknow, and there might always be
a little bit of a mystery to itin terms of how those singers do
what they do, and have thatimpact on us when they perform.
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:41):
Well, yeah.
And we're all evolving togetherlike, concert halls and opera
houses, they're evolving, andhow we use our bodies within
them is evolving, and vocalpedagogy is evolving. It's never
ending and that's reallythrilling.
(53:07):
Thanks for joining us forEpisode 13.
Julie McIsaac (53:10):
We love hearing your comments and feedback, and
we look forward to hearing yourthoughts on what we talked about
today. You can tag us on socialat @CanadianOpera, or drop us a
note at audiences@coc.ca.
Robyn Grant-Moran (53:22):
We appreciate all the feedback we've received
so far, including your reviewson Apple Podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (53:27):
Next time on Key Change
connections between opera andspace not outer space but how
different opera creators explorelevels of scale and immersion in
their work.
Robyn Grant-Moran (53:37):
We'll be speaking with two special
guests (53:39):
American opera and theatre director Yuval Sharon,
and Canadian mezzo-soprano andmultidisciplinary artists Debi
Wong. Yuval and Debi are bothknown for their experimental
takes on opera production. We'llbe talking to them about pushing
the boundaries of opera'sphysical spaces, and exploring
the possibilities of virtualreality and site-specific opera.
Julie McIsaac (54:00):
Both of these guests have so many unique
creative projects to their name.
I can't wait.
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:05):
Me, too! Take care everyone. Be the first to
find out about free events andconcerts from the COC by signing
up for our monthly eOperanewsletter at coc.ca/eOpera.
Julie McIsaac (54:26):
Thank you to all of our supporters for making Key
Change possible. This week wewant to especially thank every
COC member, subscriber, anddonor for coming on this journey
with us as we explore new waysto share opera's unique power.
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:40):
So, to make sure you don't miss an episode,
subscribe to Key Change whereveryou get your podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (54:47):
Key Change is produced by the Canadian Opera
Company and hosted by RobynGrant-Moran and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (54:54):
To learn more about today's guests and see the
show notes, please visit ourwebsite at coc.ca/KeyChange.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.