Episode 14: Opera & Space – Scale and Immersion

In an art form often viewed as traditional and static, Yuval Sharon and Debi Wong are known for their experimental and unorthodox takes on opera production. From site-specific works that audiences drive through, to a virtual reality “choose your own adventure” experience, Robyn and Julie explore what happens when we push the boundaries of opera’s physical spaces and ask “What would opera look like, if it were created or invented today?”

Episode Transcript

Julie McIsaac (00:00):
Hi, everyone.

Welcome to Key Change (00:00):
A COC Podcast, where we explore
everything about opera from afresh perspective.

Robyn Grant-Moran (00:18):
We're your hosts, Robyn Grant-Moran

Julie McIsaac (00:21):
and Julie McIsaac. Today on Episode 14,
we're looking at oursurroundings in a whole new
light as we explore some uniqueways that opera can exist
outside of the opera house.

Robyn Grant-Moran (00:31):
That's right.
While darkened auditoriums andsoaring concert halls are one
way to experience the art form,there are some really exciting
things going on right now withsite-specific opera and even
virtual reality (VR).

Julie McIsaac (00:43):
Yeah, and this goes way beyond opera al fresco;
we're not just talking abouttransplanting traditional
productions to outsideenvironments. Creators today are
delving into the possibilitiesthat total immersion can offer,
and using specific spaces to addlayers to the audience
experience, and sometimes toreveal things about the operatic
works that were always there butmaybe we just never noticed.

Robyn Grant-Moran (01:04):
Joining us for this episode are two of the
industry's most forwardthinkers: American opera and
theatre director Yuval Sharon,and Canadian interdisciplinary
performance artist Debi Wong.

Julie McIsaac (01:15):
We started our exploration by chatting with
Yuval, and to catch everyone upon his bio and work to date:
Yuval is Artistic Director ofThe Industry in Los Angeles,
which is dedicated to new andexperimental opera. He was also
recently announced the Gary L.
Wasserman Artistic Director ofMichigan Opera Theatre. Yuval
has produced opera in trainstations, on sound stages, in
moving vehicles, and all kindsof other non-traditional venues

(01:38):
that include warehouses,escalator corridors, and parking
lots.

Robyn Grant-Moran (01:43):
Last fall, he directed a take on [Richard]
Wagner's "Gtterdmmerung"called "Twilight: Gods." This
piece was basically partinstallationm, part
drive-through radio broadcast,and it asked audiences to
navigate their way through aparking garage for a one-hour
English adaptation of the RingCycle finale.

Julie McIsaac (02:17):
And Yuval received some considerable
acclaim for "Sweet Land,"another site-specific project, a
new opera created to beexperienced in L.A's State
Historic Park. Here audienceswere separated into two groups,
and they were physically drawninto exploring several narrative
viewpoints about the founding ofthe U.S. and the erasure of some
important truths in Americanhistory.

Robyn Grant-Moran (02:37):
We were curious about what set Yuval on
the path to creating anddirecting this kind of work. So,
we began by asking him to sharewhat's been significant in his
experiences as an audiencemember attending immersive
performance.

Yuval Sharon (02:58):
I experienced, you know, an early piece by the
company Punchdrunk that did"Sleep No More." I saw them do,
sort of, a retelling of "Faust,"you know, in London several
years ago. I remember that beinga very formative experience for
me because I thought, "Theactual encounter with this work
and the actual experience ofmoving through this building and

(03:20):
choosing your own adventure" Ireally enjoyed it but I also
remember feeling, like, I washoping for more somehow or I
was hoping for a richerexperience or one that was going
to be more than just aboutmoving through a space, but also
about how that move through aspace, you know, could be

(03:43):
telling a story. So, the notionthat narrative might be able to
be transferred from the librettoto the experience of the opera,
and then also realizing thatthat experience of a piece of
work, in a way, can be thecontent of what is actually
being described. So, I thinkthat was a fairly formative
experience for me. I rememberalso going to a number of visual
art installations around thattime, that were about creating

(04:05):
environments, and that felt verysimilar to, sort of, the
Punchdrunk pieces. The notion oftaking in all three dimensions
of the experience as opposedto sitting and watching
something on a stage to me,there is a challenge as soon as
you think about thedirectionality of the human
voice with opera, and that, youknow, as soon as we put people
on the stage and in theproscenium, you know, there's

(04:27):
really only one place that thesingers can go You know, that
they need to be heard in one,sort of, direction. So, I mean,
I think that as I was developingideas with my company The
Industry in Los Angeles, I didstart to think about the
introduction of the amplifiedvoice, and the introduction of a
voice that can allow for amulti-dimensional experience.

(04:48):
But my hope was that that couldalso open us up to offer not
just a cool experience, but alsoto think about how that
experience could be also whatwe're trying to convey.

Julie McIsaac (04:59):
I love that idea that the three-dimensional
experience is the content

Yuval Sharon (05:04):
Yeah.

Julie McIsaac (05:04):
of the event, of the performance.

Yuval Sharon (05:06):
I'm somebody who, when I'm in a concert hall, I am
looking all around, you know?
Probably people that sit behindme must think I'm terribly
distracted, but I'm notdistracted; I think that one of
the exciting things about seeinglive performance, one of things
we're all missing so terribly isthat our gaze is not fixed, you
know, the way that it is incinema, the way that it is in

(05:28):
everything that we're watchingonline, you know? It's, like, in
the end, you know, themultiplicity of perspectives
that is offered even when we'rejust sitting in an auditorium,
and there's so much going onon-stage, you know, that has
been taken away from us in thisyear, you know? And suddenly, we
really are focused in on whatthe director, or video director,

(05:50):
wants us to focus on. But whenI'm watching especially when I
watch concerts, you know, in aconcert hall, I am looking
around at the lighting, I'mreading in my program, I'm
hopping around, my gaze, kindof, jumps from the person who's
playing maybe the solo to theperson who's cleaning their
instrument at that moment, youknow? And that is actually a

(06:11):
really wonderful mode of seeing,I think. And I think that
somehow certainly in the lastperiod of time, when film has
become a more prominent artform, I think that we tend to
confuse what happens on stagewith a, kind of, cinematic
approach, which means that it'sall about "Everyone needs to

(06:32):
focus on one thing at a time,"and I find that utterly dull,
you know? And that the notionthat we can offer so many
possibilities, simultaneouslynot creating a chaos or not
creating a company by any meansbut instead thinking that there
are lots of differentperspectives. And the more that
we can hold differentperspectives, the more exciting

(06:54):
and the more relevant, I think,opera is. I'd like to see opera
being connected into theimmersive environment that is
our everyday lives. So, in L.A.,it's been about doing operas in
the operating train stations,you know, while people are
coming and going. Or it's been,you know, in a moving vehicle,

(07:14):
you know, with the singers inthe moving vehicle with you and,
as you're turning and looking,the life of the city is
happening outside of you. So,it's not being immersed into
another fiction; it's actuallybeing immersed and realizing the
possibilities in the worldaround us that's been so
interesting for me.

Julie McIsaac (07:33):
I can't help but think about Sweet Land. And, so,
in this production, it seems tome that audiences are implicated
in the action.

Yuval Sharon (07:40):
That they absolutely are.

Julie McIsaac (07:42):
and around them, and that they're being set up
to, sort of, feel someaccountability perhaps

Yuval Sharon (07:46):
Yes.

Julie McIsaac (07:46):
and to participate in a way in this
allegory of colonialism. And wehad a previous podcast guest,
musicologist Rena Roussin, whoactually brought this into the
conversation when we weretalking about opera and
activism.

Yuval Sharon (07:57):
Nice.

Julie McIsaac (07:58):
So, we'd love to know
specifically with experientialworks like Sweet Land what is
it about them that can bringaudiences into current and
important culturalconversations?

Yuval Sharon (08:09):
Oh, yeah. Thank you so much. It's a great
assessment of a really keyaspect of what Sweet Land was
about. I think there's a veryimportant distinction to be made
between the, kind of, activistapproach, and then the artistic
imperative of creating a work ofart, you know? There are places

(08:31):
where they overlap and I thinkthey're really important and
necessary places where theydiverge. I would never deign to
call myself an activist, even ifI'm, you know Like, an activist
is someone who's actually notjust making a work of art but
really really putting theirtheir life on the line for

(08:51):
change, you know, like, on asystemic and policy level. So,
even though I do feel verypolitically engaged as an
individual, there is somethingdifferent that happens when I'm
creating a work of art, whichmeans that it has to hold a lot
of different and sometimescontradictory perspectives.
But one of the things that Ithink is an inherently political

(09:13):
act is questioning our notion ofspectatorship. Sweet Land was,
by definition, a project inwhich you could not be a passive

spectator, you know (09:22):
you were on the move, and you were
constantly, you know, pushedfrom basically one location to
another, and your experience ofSweet Land was inherently
different from at least half ofthe audience in a very obvious
way, because half the audiencewent down one path and saw one
story, and then half theaudience went down another path

(09:43):
and saw another story, all underthe title of Sweet Land, you
know? So, two people that, Iguess, saw the same opera, kind
of, didn't see the same opera,you know? And that in a way, in
its formal conceit, it's, kindof, what I said earlier about
that form actually being thecontent, you know? That formal

(10:03):
experience ends up being so muchof what we're trying to convey
as it relates to issues ofnationhood, and relations of
indigeneity, and all of those,kind of, notions that have been
unexplored or not exploredenough, you know, by the
dominant culture, and certainlynot by opera. So, I think that

(10:26):
all of that is a way of sayingthe way that Sweet Land was
experienced was, in every way,an encapsulation and a microcosm
of the very ideas that we werehoping to express with Sweet
Land.

Julie McIsaac (10:37):
The notion of spectatorship and what that
means, and angle, and lens and,what you come to the performance
with in terms of your culturalbackground, in terms of your
privilege.

Yuval Sharon (10:46):
That's absolutely right. There's a French
philosopher whose name isJacques Rancire, and his work
has been very inspirational forme, early on and remains so. And
he wrote a fantastic book calledThe Emancipated Spectator. He
said that sometimes what seemsto be active spectatorship is
actually another form ofpassivity, and when I heard
that, I really thought, "Oh,that's what I struggle with,

(11:10):
with a lot of, kind of,immersive projects," because
yes, it may seem like you arechoosing your own adventure, but
actually, you know, there is aninherent passivity to the
experience in terms of how muchyou actually affect the
experience in any particularway, you know, and is that even

(11:31):
desirable, you know? And what isoften called "passive," meaning
sitting in a theatre, isn'tthere a lot of activity possible
within just having one fixedperspective in a seat in an
auditorium. Exactly what yousaid, Julie, of, like, you know,
you're still constantly goingback and forth between what

(11:53):
you're seeing on stage and yourown experiences, you know? And
that actually, you know, is abig shaper of the experience,
you know, and that's somethingthat I always go back to and
think about. And realizing thatwe can't assume anybody's
background and how they aregoing to engage with the

(12:15):
particular piece that you put infront of them, you know? And so,
somehow you have to create aspace in which you are saying
something very decisive, but notexclusionary. So, these are all,
in the end, political questionseven if they end up being quite
different from activism.

Robyn Grant-Moran (12:37):
Now, before the pandemic, you were going to
take a sabbatical in Japan, Iunderstand.

Yuval Sharon (12:42):
Yes, yes.

Robyn Grant-Moran (12:43):
Yeah. So, instead, you stayed here and put
on one of the most ambitious ofopera staged in North America
during the last year. And I'mwondering: why is taking risks
and doing new things in art soimportant during times of
crisis?

Yuval Sharon (13:00):
I think the short answer to that is it's always an
important time, you know?
There's never a wrong time totake a risk; I think if you stop
taking risks, you're not doingart, you know, because it's,
like, you know, this goes backto, kind of, a fundamental
question I've been thinking

about a lot, you know (13:18):
is opera an art form that affirms what we
know? You know, is it an artform that is about a, kind of,
confirmation? Because that comeswith it a lot of things that I
don't think we want to affirmanymore or, that we don't want
to confirm this, kind of, likeYou know, there's a lot in opera
that is hierarchical, that iscolonialist, that is

(13:42):
exclusionary, you know? And, so,if we're affirming a certain
vision of the past, we're alsoaffirming all of that. So, I
don't think that that is the waythat opera can go; instead, to
me, the opposite of that is anopera that is about
potentiality, and aboutpossibility, and is about
projecting an idea. And that, Ithink, is way more interesting

(14:04):
and way more exciting, and thatmakes opera an art form of the
imagination, and that's the kindof opera that I am And that is
inherently risky, too, becausethat means you're not relying on
the way things were done, youknow? And even if it is a
standard repertoire piece, it'sa classic opera, all the more

(14:26):
reason to take even more riskswith it, right? So, in Detroit
next year, we're going to reopenthe theatre I'm glad you

mentioned Twilight (14:33):
Gods, and I'm happy to talk about that
more, but I'm thinking ahead nowto our next season, our upcoming
year, and one of the projectsthat we announced was a piece
that I'll direct, [Giacomo]Puccini's "La Bohme," that
we're going to do in reverseorder: we're going to start with
Act Four, and then we're gonnado Act Three, and then we're
going to do Act Two, and thenwe're going to do Act One. So,

(14:53):
we end with Mim and Rodolfo inlove and singing "O soave
fanciulla," and their voicesfrom off-stage is how the opera
is going to end. I think this isan idea that I have been

(15:14):
developing for a long time nowbut its time has absolutely come
for so many reasons. And, youknow, in many ways, I put the
idea out there, I thought it wasa really big risk I actually
wasn't sure if Michigan OperaTheatre was ready to take this
kind of risk because, you know,this is really a departure in a

(15:35):
big way, you know? Even if, youknow, that actually, visually
it's going to be 19th centuryFrance, you know, but the
storytelling is going to betotally different. And I am just
thrilled that everybody isexcited about it. You know, I
mean, I was ready for people tobe, you know, ripping up their
digital programs, and, you know,being upset about it, and I

(15:57):
don't know. All I've heard isincredible curiosity and
enthusiasm, and it reminds methat, you know, audiences want
things that are different, andexciting and new, you know?
Even if it's something that theyfind familiar, you know? I think
there is somehow a perception ofthe audience that people get
really tripped up on. And I seeleadership I see my role as an

(16:21):
artistic leader is to excitepeople for the kind of things
that they never even knew werepossible. I'm not saying, "I
want to do every operabackwards" by any means, you
know? Like, I do understand thatthis is a very, you know, strong
step in the direction I want togo, and it's also very much not
just about me; I mean, that's meas a director, what interests me

(16:42):
about La Bohme and how I thinkLa Bohme has so much unexplored
territory, because it's so oftendone in a pretty rote way, you
know? Because it's so belovedand, you know, it kind of does
itself in so many ways, youknow? Which means that it's been
unexplored for so long and ithas become a, kind of, ossified
cliche, you know? And it's notfair to poor Puccini, you know.

(17:05):
As a playlist, when I hear it inreverse order, I just think,
"What amazing moments I've nevernoticed before," you know,
because I just, kind of, go withthe flow of hearing it, you
know? And suddenly, all of theseincredible little moments, you
know, are heard in a brand newway, and I think, for me, when
it comes to standard repertoire,that is my real goal: I want to

(17:28):
be able to offer it in a newway, in a way that is totally
loving of the work, you know;it's not a destruction of the
work, it's not a deconstructionout of doubt in the work's
validity; it's actually a totalaffirmation of the work's
validity. But I know, in thecase of the Bohme, it's going
to be such a memorableexperience, you know? And even
if people say, "I can't wait tosee it again in the normal

(17:49):
order," that's fine, you know;they'll have a chance to do that
you know, like, La Bohmeisn't going anywhere. But I'm
also just so thrilled that we'llbe doing the second production
of Anthony Davis's opera "[X,The Life and Times of Malcolm

Yuval Sharon (18:03):
immediately after that, you know what I mean? So,
X"]

Julie McIsaac (18:03):
Yes.
those two pieces to me, thoseare the two pieces that we'll do
in our theatre; the other piecesof we'll do will be in various
other venues because of thepandemic primarily, you know?

Robyn Grant-Moran (18:15):
It seems like now is the time where theatre is
so unfamiliar, by virtue of thefact that we've been shut out,
that everybody will be exploringtheatre as a new concept again
once we all go back in. But togo back outside the opera house,

I'm wondering (18:33):
what location would you love to set an opera
[in] but that you haven't yet?

Yuval Sharon (18:39):
Oh, there's so many. I mean, you know, there's
so many places that arepossible. I mean, one of the
things that I'm interested in,in Detroit, all of the, kind of,
sites that have an incrediblehistory, you know? For a while,
Detroit was considered the, kindof, "Paris of America" because
of all of these incredible,incredible buildings from the

(19:00):
20s, you know, in 30s, a lot ofwhich are still standing, some
of which are in some kind of "inbetween" stage, you know? And I
think that notion of these sitesthat have history, and spaces
that have a, kind of, resonancewithin the life of the city,

(19:21):
those are sites that I reallywant to take opera to. So, I
think every city has within itprobably some place in which the
live performance can be a layer,you know, that can help excavate
some of these historical ideas.
Certainly in the case of SweetLand, the opera I did here in
Los Angeles, that was a big partof it. You know, thinking about
how this live performancebecomes a trace on a piece of

(19:43):
land that has within it theseincredible and traumatic stories
that are not told often enough,you know? And, so, what does it
mean to just point our attentionto that, and thinking about the
role of mythmaking in thestories that we tell about

(20:05):
ourselves? I don't think everypiece needs to be doing that but
I also think that there is so
there's this great quote by JohnCage, which I've always loved,
which is "The notion thattheatre is all around us, and
art's role is merely to point usto that fact," you know? He puts

(20:28):
it much more beautifully than Idid just now. So, it's not a
direct quote but the sentimentis something I really, really
believe in.

Robyn Grant-Moran (20:44):
It was so great chatting with Yuval!

Julie McIsaac (20:46):
Yeah, like, not only joining us from L.A., but
the fact that he's going to bein Detroit, which is actually so
close to Toronto.

Robyn Grant-Moran (20:52):
Right? And I was just so taken with the idea
of Bohme backwards like, takng this very standard work a

Julie McIsaac (20:56):
Oh, you did?! d turning it around. And, y
u know, after we talked to him,I went and reordered it in
y playlist and listened it bakwards

Robyn Grant-Moran (21:13):
and it completely changed how I
understood the opera. And Ithink there's such a power in
that in taking these old ideasand sprucing them up
especially right now when we'recaught in our homes, we're in
lockdown, our lives are flat anddisconnected, and, you know,

(21:37):
it's really easy to forget thatthere's joy in things. And when
you listen to Bohme backwards,it makes you ask, "Was the pain
worth it?" And it absolutelywas.

Julie McIsaac (21:51):
Yeah, that's beautiful. And, as a director, I
often find myself thinking ofwhat specifically I want the
audience to be seeing, orhearing, or experiencing at any
given moment. But the idea ofcreating a performance scenario
with the express goal ofallowing each person to edit
their own experience, to guidetheir eyes and ears, or
purposefully creating orreordering things to bring about

(22:11):
that new understanding, or thatnew way of experiencing it, I
think it's a wonderful new wayof looking at things and it's
going to be staying with me fora long time. And, of course, our
second guest is taking things tothe next level when it comes to
new ground for staging opera.

Robyn Grant-Moran (22:26):
Debi Wong is a Canadian mezzo-soprano who is
the Founder and ArtisticDirector of re:Naissance Opera.
The company is based inVancouver [BC], where their
activity is driven by localartists with a commitment to
equity, intersectionality,innovation, and collaboration.

Julie McIsaac (22:41):
In 2014, they tackled cyberbullying in an
interactive social media operacalled "#DidoAndAeneas," and the
production was the first to usesocial media and instant
messaging to interact with theaudience through a virtual world
outside of the performance.

Robyn Grant-Moran (22:56):
Debi's company has also done some work
with opera told throughpodcasts, which we'll dig into a
bit later. And she recentlybecame Creative Director of
Orpheus VR, a project currentlyin development. The virtual
experience is based on the mythof Orpheus and Eurydice, and
plays like a "choose your ownadventure" opera, complete with
moral implications. With themany industry hats that she's

(23:17):
worn, we started by asking Debiabout her journey down all these
different pathways.

Debi Wong (23:30):
As a young singer, I was really interested in stories
and the kinds of stories we weretelling on stages, and what
agency I had over storytellingas an emerging artist, emerging
performer and singer. And I cameto it from the Baroque, early
music, historically informedperformance practice (whatever

(23:50):
you want to call it!) genre, andwhat I loved about studying
music in that context was the,sort of, historical context that
we were encouraged to engagewith. But as I, kind of,
started, like, you know,settling into myself and my own
artistic ideas, I realized thatit didn't feel like there was a
lot of room for my own forms ofstorytelling within the, kind

(24:15):
of, framework of being aclassical singer, as I
understood it as an emergingsinger. And that very much led
to me wanting to create my owncompany, or my own platform, for
experimenting with these newstorytelling ideas. And I, sort
of, did two thingssimultaneously: one, was I
started a PhD program in Finlandat the Sibelius Academy, and the

other was I formed re (24:39):
Naissance Opera, and both were, kind of,
experimental playgrounds for me.
As a doctoral student, I wasbringing more physicality into
my practice, I was taking improvclasses, and trying out all
different kinds of artisticexperiences to inform my art
making. And then with

re (24:58):
Naissance, I was looking at the bigger picture and how I
could fit into the, kind of,cultural landscape we are all
weaving together across theselands that we colonially call
Canada. And that's, sort of, howI ended up as a producer, which
is, for me, kind of, takingthis, sort of, creative bird's
eye view/look at things andthinking about how I can bring

(25:22):
different people, differentartists, different ideas into
the operatic sector to tell newstories and create new stories.
And one of the questions we liketo throw around a lot is "What
would opera look like if it wereinvented today?" And that is how
we, sort of, end up in thisother realm of art making, which
is bringing in digital artistsand thinking about online and

(25:45):
digital content as well.

Julie McIsaac (25:47):
Thank you for bringing that question into the
conversation of "What would itlook like if it was created here
and now today?" That's a great agreat thing to ponder. And
having met you through sort ofVancouver's indie opera scene, I
know we're all just so gratefulfor your leadership, and your
creativity, and advocacy so,it's really great to have this
opportunity to chat with you andto introduce our listeners to
you as well. Now, as someonewho's been on every side of the

(26:09):
stage you've been in the inthe audience, on stage, behind
the scenes producing how doyou find that each perspective
shapes your decisions andexperiences in the other areas?

Debi Wong (26:20):
Yeah, I actually think that that's such an
important thing for all artists,or audience members, or
creators, because I think theperformance, just in general, is
a really beautiful space forcommunity; it's a beautiful
space where we bring people infrom all different walks of
life, whether they've had agreat day, a bad day, whether
they identify as an artist ornot. And we are all

collaborators (26:44):
we all enter into this, sort of, social contract
to be together for this certainamount of time, in this certain
storytelling context, and we'reall going to, kind of, like,
give into the make believe orwhatever it is that we are
co-creating that day. And, so,having the experience as the
"audienceco-creator," or as the"composerco-creator," or the

(27:04):
"co-creatorco-creator"whatever you want to call those
roles is so important if weare going to continue fostering
these really meaningful socialinteractions that happen in
performance. And I think that'ssomething that I try to, kind
of, hold on to as we arecreating new works, or
commissioning new works.

Julie McIsaac (27:21):
I'm just really curious
away from being just a performerand started to get into those
other fields of practice, werethere any particularly
illuminating experiences thatyou had?

Debi Wong (27:31):
One of the big things that I feel is really becoming
clear now is that we And I donot have a fixed idea of what
opera has to look and soundlike, but I do have a very fixed
idea of what the process shouldlook like, or feel like and, in
that way, I'm sort of thinkingabout opera as a tool that we

(27:53):
use to bring communitiestogether these communities
that I just, kind of, alluded toto bring communities together
and to co-create and tellstories together. And how what
that story ends up looking likeis very much a product of
whoever's in the room at thattime, and who we've taken care
to invite into that room. And Ithink that's the "aha" moment

that I had (28:16):
if we're using opera as a tool, if we're really
thinking about the process andhow we are inviting people and
artists into that process, thenwhat we come out with is going
to be very differentstorytelling, musical operatic
experiences, and they can allcoexist together without taking
away from one version of what wethink opera is.

Robyn Grant-Moran (28:38):
Now you've really invited audiences in to
participate in 2014 and#DidoAndAeneas through the use
of instant messaging and socialmedia to involve the audience in
the story, and to help developthe world outside of the
performance. Can you tell usmore about how that worked?

Debi Wong (28:56):
That was such a fun production. It was my very first
thing like, a largerproduction as a producer, and
performer, and, you know, scriptwriter/dramaturg. And the idea
was "How can we look at thisstory, Dido and Aeneas, which is
told all the time especiallythe opera by [Henry] Purcell,

(29:16):
it's performed everywhereconsistently how can we look
at that story and tell it todayin a way that makes sense and
resonates with people and, kindof, step away from that damsel
in distress sort of image ofDido that we get all the time,
and the, sort of, like, evilsorceress and these kind of
stereotypes that are reallypersistent in our field?" And,
at the heart of that story, Irealized it's about someone who

(29:39):
is getting bullied for her lifechoices, basically. And that's
something that, as afemale-identifying person I
experience quite often, youknow? There's all these ideas of
what I should be or shouldn't beand, you know, we're used to
this. But I wanted to, kind of,pull that idea through the story
and, at the time we werecreating it, I remember I was

(30:00):
standing on a subway platform inNew York and I saw this (she
looked like she was about nineyears old) girl with her
grandma, and her grandma keptasking her, like, "What's wrong,
what's wrong, what's wrong?"Andthis little girl finally said,
"I'm getting hate-tweeted!" Andthis, like, broke my heart I
was like, "This, like, young,young person is getting
hate-tweeted!" And, so, this waswhen cyberbullying was just kind

(30:24):
of becoming like a really knownissue, but for older
generations, it's justcompletely baffling and, like,
nobody understands what thatmeans, and this grandmother
didn't know. And, so, I saw anopportunity there to bring
cyberbullying into the forefrontof this conversation because
that is how we bully peoplethese days; this is how we, you
know it's still happening somuch. And, so, what we did with

(30:45):
that production is Dido was thesubject of cyberbullying and,
you know, one of her colleaguesat school thought that she
wasn't cool enough and decidedto, kind of, like, just start
poking fun at her online, andwhen she falls in love with one
of the popular people at school,this bully gets a photo of her
and posts it all over socialmedia. And what happened in the

(31:08):
production is that we set it ina bar in real time, so, it was
site-specific but, at the door,everyone left their phone
numbers to be on a group chat.
And so our tech person waslive-chatting with the audience,
and it was coming from theperspective of the bully, like,
behind Dido's back. So, ifyou're in the audience, you're
seeing your notifications,you're seeing your social media

(31:30):
being populated with thesereally, you know, awful things
that are said all the time, andalso photographs of her, and you
get the sense of, like, you'reparticipating in it, and "it's
fun because we're in aperformance," but then you're
seeing the effects of it onstage as well and it, kind of,
creates that conversation ofunderstanding now what that is,
and seeing the effects play outin front of you.

Robyn Grant-Moran (32:08):
We don't get to see the effects of bullying,
like, cyberbullying inreal-time, and this is an
example of you get to see, in adramatized fashion, the
immediate impact. And I'mwondering how audiences reacted
to that?

Unknown (32:24):
Yeah, the production was really well received, and,
you know, famously at the end ofPurcell's Dido and Aeneas, Dido
kills herself, and the way wetranslated that was to the
implication of like seriousself-harm, which is what we see
as the effects of cyberbullying.
And, so, that's what we left the

audience with (32:47):
with this image of this, kind of, vibrant, young
woman who is just, you know,enjoying high school and
figuring out what it means to,kind of, go out into the world
as an independent person, butbeing thwarted by this online
bullying, and then seeing theeffects of that, and how it,
like, physically is affectingher and emotionally. And the

(33:11):
audiences received it reallywell; I think we did three
nights and it quickly sold out,so, we were really sad that we
didn't actually have a longerrun. And people had lots of
great questions for usafterwards and, because it was
in the social setting, everyone,kind of, stayed afterwards until

(33:33):
they got kicked out of the barto have drinks, and talk about
what they were seeing, and why.
And we had information oncyberbullying in the program
notes as well, so they hadeverything, sort of, there to
really understand it, and Ithink it was a positive impact.

Robyn Grant-Moran (33:47):
I was listening to a podcast about
Amanda Todd, and thinking aboutRehtaeh Parsons, and, like, Dido
wasn't that much older in thestory than these girls, and we
forget that because we havethis, like, "Oh, well, she's a
queen." Like, she must havebeen, like, maybe not geriatric

(34:08):
but fully mature

Debi Wong (34:10):
Yeah.

Robyn Grant-Moran (34:10):
mature adult and she wouldn't have been; she
was very young.

Debi Wong (34:14):
Yeah. And the other thing about Dido, too, is that,
you know, she decides to killherself in the opera and in this
version of the myth because ofthe dishonour it's going to
bring her when Aeneas decides toleave and not marry her or stay
by her side. And that reallytranslates to a lot of
experiences thatfemale-identifying people have

(34:38):
today that our choices are notvalid by society standards and
therefore we will be shamed.

Julie McIsaac (34:45):
And I was just thinking about how high school
can be a very stratified worldin terms of hierarchies, and the
pressures of that, and thecomparisons that can be drawn to
a setting where there are thesesocial hierarchies in terms of
royalty, with the pecking order[that] is there. Like that

Debi Wong (35:01):
Yeah

Julie McIsaac (35:01):
strikes me as a really powerful corollary.

Debi Wong (35:04):
Yeah, exactly. And it's also just such a place
where we really start digginginto our identity, like, as
young people, and where a lot ofit's formed and informed as well
or at least that first, sortof, layer. So, yeah, it did work
really well!

Julie McIsaac (35:21):
I didn't get to see that when it was first done
in Vancouver and I'd love tohear of it coming back in order
to take part of that experience.

Robyn Grant-Moran (35:28):
It reminds me of, like, a 21st century
morality play but minus theincredible religious fervour!

Debi Wong (35:38):
Yes. I love that.
Yeah, I hope I can remount itone day.

Julie McIsaac (35:44):
And, sort of, bringing us a bit closer to what
you're currently working on,Debi: we know that you're doing
some pretty exciting thingsright now involving opera and
virtual reality, which for manypeople, might not be things that
ever align in their minds whenthey think about those two
forms. Could you describe to usyour work in VR?

Debi Wong (36:03):
This is definitely one of those things that emerged
from bringing in new artistsinto the art form. And I
described the virtual realityexperience as a "choose your own
adventure meets epic opera."And, again, we asked our team,
like, "What would opera looklike if it were created or
invented today?" and we kind of,like, hooked on to the ideas

(36:24):
from the early Baroque days ofWestern opera being born, of
audiences being immersed inthese really larger than life
stories, and these performancesby actors that would just bring
audiences to tears and just draweveryone in. And we came up with
the idea of virtual realitybecause you literally are

(36:46):
completely immersed in a storyworld. Music naturally does that
for us but, in terms of, like,the visuals and the graphics,
virtual reality lets us beinside another universe wholly.
And that was really exciting tome, as was the idea of using
motion capture, which isbasically a recording system

(37:09):
that records the body movementsand facial movements of a live
actor. And being able to motioncapture and facial capture opera
singers, bringing to life, like,mythological creatures inside of
an immersive, like, fantasyuniverse just sounded so nerdy
and so fun. And then we took itone step further and decided

(37:35):
that it would be even more funif the audience could, again,
kind of, feel like they areco-creators in the experience,
and so we give them agency inthis experience: they can
interact with elements in theworld and it changes the
orchestration they will hear,they can choose which branching
storylines to follow. So, eachoperatic experience is unique to

(37:55):
their, kind of, inputs into thestory.

Robyn Grant-Moran (37:59):
How long does it take to make something like
that?

Debi Wong (38:04):
Well, it's hard to say because, you know, it's,
kind of, a first of its kindthat, you know? There's been
operatic experiences orperformances where there's
motion capture people, andthey're in a virtual world in
real time, and that's kind of aknown pipeline. But in terms of
creating, like, for example, aninteractive score, our composer
Brian Topp who was alreadyworking in virtual reality,

(38:27):
composition, and audioexperiences he has so many
things to think about when he'scomposing; he can't just write a
score, he has to write, like,every single moment that
happens. And it's not a linearthing, it's a very, sort of,
stacked up process. So, youknow, if I'm the audience
member, and I decide to standaround for an extra five

(38:49):
minutes, he has to have musicfor that extra five minutes. Or
if I decide to blast through theexperience in two minutes flat,
then he has to just, like, havea, you know, musical narrative
that'll still hang together forall of those kinds of
parameters. And, so, we have towork as a team very in, like,
"intertwinedly" that's not aword. But we're, like, on

(39:10):
meetings all the time and everysingle minute of content that we
get through has to be donetogether. So, it's a good thing
we mostly get along. I'm justkidding: we get along! I love my
team, they're the best!

Julie McIsaac (39:22):
What would you say are the next steps for that
project?

Debi Wong (39:25):
Well, we are finishing the we call it "opera
industry ready prototype" thisweek fingers crossed, knock on
wood, please let us make thisdeadline! We're finishing it
this week, so, then we arehoping to send it out to anyone
who has access to a headset andis able to test it for us and
give us feedback. Because, youknow, what I love about working

(39:49):
with digital tech artists (Idon't know what to call them. I
don't know what to call it.

Julie McIsaac (39:55):
Brand new field!

Debi Wong (39:56):
I know! I'm like, "My digital opera tech artists?" I
don't know.

Julie McIsaac (39:59):
I love it.

Debi Wong (40:00):
But what I love about working with all of these
artists and these collaboratorsis that they come from a very
different way of doing things.
And, so, there's this constant,like, process of iterating, and
making mistakes, and tryingthings out, and letting people
in to give us feedback rightaway. And there's a lot of value
placed on that. And that's sucha great change from, you know,
as a classical singer, I spend,like, you know, like, maybe

(40:24):
three hours a day locked in aroom with no windows trying to
figure out "How's my sound?
Okay?" and then eventually, I'mgoing to perform something for a
bunch of people, and thenthey're going to judge me on it,
and it feels horrible most ofthe time. But, so, coming from
that kind of, like, you know,tradition into this, like,
"Let's make something messy, getpeople to tell us what works and
doesn't work, and then let'skeep going and do that whole

(40:45):
process again," is really cooland informative. So, we finally
have a full prototype for peopleto test out, and we're gonna see
what happens when we get thatfeedback and then get back into
development.

Julie McIsaac (40:59):
Yeah, and based on your findings and experiences

thus far (41:02):
how do you think VR could be functioning in opera's
not-too-distant future?

Debi Wong (41:09):
Yeah, virtual reality, during the pandemic,
especially, it's been reallyneat to be in that space because
I, you know with working withother VR people we often meet in
the virtual world so, put onthe headset and we're meeting in
these social VR spaces. And Ithought, it's just going to,
kind of, feel like another Zoomthing where you're on a flat

(41:29):
screen and doing your thing. Butit's actually so fun because
sometimes I will meet with myfriends in their, like, brand
newly created worlds thatthey've just put together, and
they'll take me for a tour ontheir beautiful worlds, and
it'll just be like, "Oh, great,I'm just literally traveling
around in an imaginary universeright now," and you see people's

(41:50):
physical movements, and youstill see them on a, you know,
2D screen of course, but there'ssomething that's still much more
embodied about virtual realityexperiences. And, so, it'll be
really interesting to see how wecan, you know, capitalize on
that and bring it into theoperatic space when we are in
these times where we reallycan't connect or be in physical

(42:11):
space. And then also find outhow it can just be incorporated
into what we're doing so that itcan open up the ability for
people across the globe toaccess each other, or access
performers and performances.
without all of the travel and,you know, the eco[logical]
footprints that that comes with.

Robyn Grant-Moran (42:28):
It sounds like a great tool for
accessibility, as well.

Debi Wong (42:32):
Accessibility and VR is a really interesting topic
right now because, for example,I do work with some deaf artists
and I can't bring them into thevirtual world because there
isn't really great ways for usto be able to sign and
communicate using sign languagebecause of the hand tracking
things in virtual realityexperiences. And, so, there's a

(42:54):
lot of conversation aboutaccessibility right now but, as
you said, for people who areliving with disabilities and are
physically incapable ofattending a concert, or going
out every night to, you know, toa venue, this is a great way of
just immersing them in thatworld and bringing them in.

Robyn Grant-Moran (43:13):
re
interesting things with thepodcast format, in terms of
podcast as [the] primary vehiclefor delivering artistic content.

Well, I'm wondering (43:22):
what's different when an opera is being
created specifically for apodcast experience?

Debi Wong (43:29):
Well, I think, again, this was one of those things
where we brought in a bunch ofreally amazing, amazing, amazing
artists from all differentdisciplines, all different walks
of life, and we had anopportunity to say, like, "What
can we create together?" and wewere working within the confines
of the pandemic. Originally, wewere going to be producing an

(43:51):
in-person, live indie operafestival called "Indie Fest,"
which we run every year. And,so, when the pandemic hit, we
had to quickly shift and figureout "How will we direct our
resources now, so that we arestill bringing in as many
artists as we can? And what canwe create that's going to be
able to enter into an alreadysaturated digital space?" You

(44:15):
know, we don't have the capacityto make huge livestream,
multi-camera experiences it'sbeyond us and I just happened
to know some really greatpodcast producers, some really
great composers, really greatwriters, and the idea of an
audio drama came up as a reallynatural, kind of, like, stepping

(44:35):
stone; it's something we can alldo from our homes or with
limited bodies in a physicalrecording space, and it is
already an oral, sort of, audioexperience. And, so, bringing
the operatic drama and mindsetsand tools to that process seemed
really, kind of, a natural thingto do. And I think what was

(44:59):
special about this podcast isthat we intentionally brought
together this team of reallydiverse people, and we went
through this process of reallybuilding trust in the ensemble,
and building trust amongst eachother, and with the other
artists we wanted to bring in.
And we were struggling withreally big questions at the
time, like, you know, just firstof all being artists and losing

(45:21):
all our work but, at the sametime, with the implications and
impacts of the Black LivesMatter movement, and the rise in
acknowledging that systemicracism exists in our world. And
for a team that is predominantlypeople of colour. These things
were heavy and they werechallenging to to deal with

(45:44):
because we were coming from alldifferent backgrounds. You know,
I come from Chinese settlerbackground, but some of my
colleagues are Indigenous, andsome of my other colleagues are
White males and, you know, like,we all had very different
experiences of what was goingon. And having to come into
community and conversation witheach other, and trust each other
enough to have those difficultconversations, and then to

(46:07):
create a story about the futurewe wanted together, was really
beautiful and challenging in thebest way possible, I think. And
I think that was the best part

about creating this podcast (46:24):
was that it was a safe format for us
to work in but it enabled thesereally important conversations
and a new community of artiststo emerge from it.

Julie McIsaac (46:36):
Yeah, I was looking at the list of everyone
who's involved, some of whom Iknow and have worked with
personally, and some of them Idon't. But I just looked at that
list and I thought, "What afantastic team of incredible
voices and perspectives that youhave working on that." And hello
to everyone hi, Jess [Schacht]and hi, Renae [Morriseau], and
everyone who's working on thatpiece! Before we let you go,
Debi, are there other works indevelopment or that you're aware

(46:58):
of that are exciting you rightnow? Particularly when you think
of new ways of imagining scaleand immersive capacities in
opera.

Debi Wong (47:06):
So, right now, at re:Naissance, we have a few
different projects that arecoming up the pipeline, and one
of the ones I'm really excitedabout is a livestream using some
of our computer-created avatars.
So, we're going to be looking athaving these livestreamed, 2D
performances but with operasingers animating avatars
designed by our 3D artists. So,I'm really excited about this.

(47:29):
It's going to, sort of, exist inthe Orpheus VR universe but it's
called "Live from theUnderworld," and it's a
broadcast from Persephone andall these people and inhabitants
in the underworld. And we'reaiming for Halloween, so, I'm
very excited; I hope people willshow up in costumes and, whether
we're in person or online, wecan still have a Halloween
party. But I'm also reallyinterested and I'm biased

(47:54):
because I'm producing it butI'm really loving the ASL
[American Sign Language] operathat is being created right now
by Landon Krentz and MoniqueHolt. And what they're playing
with is, first of all, breakingdown the barriers of what our
voices are, because as hearingpeople we think about our voices
as something that we, you know,make sound and [it] comes out

(48:16):
into the world. But what Landonhas taught me is that, you know,
there are people who hear withtheir eyes, and I love this idea
that he's, kind of, opened mymind to and I hadn't seen things
in that way before because of myown ignorances. And, so, we're
talking about singers who aresigning and the similarities

(48:36):
between ASL poetry and musicalrhythm. And Monique, the
librettist, is diving into thisidea of creating new mythologies
for Deaf communities, and whatit means to not have stories,
and deaf people represented inour cultural narratives, and how
we can create more fairy talesand myths to give honour and

(48:59):
shed light on those livedexperiences. So, I'm super
excited to see that come to lifein the next couple of years as
well.

Robyn Grant-Moran (49:14):
You know, after talking to Debi and Yuval,
I really feel like immersivetheatre is, kind of, having its

moment right now (49:20):
we're so disconnected from our own lives.
Like, I barely leave myapartment except when I have to
I have to walk my dog. I don'tknow. Do you go out much, Julie?

Julie McIsaac (49:33):
I don't but, like, what you're saying about
immersive theatre having itsmoment is, in the past, when I
thought about immersiveperformances, I thought about
those times where I was, like,squished in really tightly with
a group of people, like, in aweird room and I couldn't quite
see, and then you got draggeddown the hall to this other
thing. Whereas what this hasrevealed to me is immersive can
take all these different shapes,and forms, and it has nothing to

(49:53):
do necessarily with physicalproximity.

Robyn Grant-Moran (49:56):
Right! And, like you said, we don't get to
experience theatre or immersivetheatre as we did before. When I
think about immersive theater, Ireally low-key think about
Robert Wilson and everythingfacing forward as, like, "We're
working in this very functional,rigid defined space." You turn

(50:18):
everyone forward and it makesthe audience, sort of,
omniscient because you're seeingeverybody's emotions at the same
time. Then you have the reallynext-level kind of immersive
theatre, where you are going todifferent locations, and you're
jammed in together, and you'rebeing led around, and that's,
like, the next level. But thenwhat Yuval and Debi are doing

(50:42):
is, like, completely, like, outof the stratosphere compared to
that. And it feels like itcouldn't really be possible to
do at the extent they're doingit being embraced the way it is
right now because, like, wearen't living our lives the way
we normally do. Like, we gothrough our own personal

(51:04):
tragedies, for example like,COVID has brought a lot of death
to people's lives and people arenot able to experience funerals,
and people are not able toexperience the joys like
weddings, births, visitingbabies. Like, we're doing this
all in a very mediated flatthrough-the-screen kind of

(51:25):
fashion.

Julie McIsaac (51:27):
If at all, right?

Robyn Grant-Moran (51:28):
If at all, yeah! And, so, it feels like
immersive theatre is, sort of,an antidote to that? Outside is
safe, safer.

Julie McIsaac (51:42):
Right, to attend an artistic Yeah.

Robyn Grant-Moran (51:45):
Yeah. Like, being inside with people is very
dangerous right now. But beingin a park, being in your car in
a parking garage

Julie McIsaac (51:54):
Right.

Robyn Grant-Moran (51:54):
Like these are safer things.

Julie McIsaac (51:57):
Putting on a headset and just entering a
virtual world.

Robyn Grant-Moran (52:00):
Exactly! And it's, kind of, a safer space,
yet completely wild and creativeand new. Like, it's almost like
the Wild West, in a sense at thesame time.

Julie McIsaac (52:16):
And it can be very rich.

Robyn Grant-Moran (52:18):
Mm hmm.

Julie McIsaac (52:19):
Yeah.

Robyn Grant-Moran (52:19):
Absolutely.

Julie McIsaac (52:20):
experience. What Debi was saying about the team
that she put together for thepodcast so, another way of
experiencing art was that theywere reckoning with the past and
the present and some difficultthings around that, to then
create a story about the future.
I was also really struck by whatDebi shared in that it's, like,
we get these people together towork on a project, some of whom
have never worked in operabefore, and then we create a

(52:41):
process that's going to feelgood to us, and feel inclusive
and supportive of the artists,but then we don't know what's
going to result! So, there'sthis openness about the result
and the possibilities there,which reminds me about what
Yuval was saying about"potentiality," and getting
excited about audiences gettingexcited to experience something
they didn't even know couldexist.

Robyn Grant-Moran (53:00):
And, like, that all, kind of, comes back to
what Debi said about "What ifopera was completely
contemporary?" What would thatlook like"

Julie McIsaac (53:09):
Yeah.

Robyn Grant-Moran (53:09):
"if we didn't have this rigid idea of
'opera must be x, y, and z'based on things that were done
300 years ago."

Julie McIsaac (53:19):
And in that re-exploration, I love what
Yuval said about how that can beloving, so, that these aren't,
like, violent deconstructionsfor the sake of violent
deconstruction, but it comesfrom a place of love in the
sense of not thinking that theoriginal work is invalid in any
way, but because of the love hebears for the art form, he wants
to see "What has it not yetrevealed to us about itself?"

Robyn Grant-Moran (53:40):
Right. I mean, I can't imagine to go back
to Bohme backwards. I can'timagine thinking to do that, if
you didn't absolutely love thesource.

Julie McIsaac (53:49):
Yeah, yeah.

Robyn Grant-Moran (53:51):
Like, that to me seems like a complete active
affection and curiosity.

Julie McIsaac (53:58):
And it seems like he's approaching it, yeah, with
such tenderness for thecharacters, and for the original
story, and the original music,that it's coming from that,
yeah, like you said, affection.
That's really beautiful. Now,I'm curious, Robyn, what Yuval
was saying about, you know, weasked him, like, "Where would
you like to set an opera thatyou haven't yet?" and he said
that what he's drawn to is thesehistorical places in a city that
have resonance for the city interms of the history of that

(54:21):
place, in terms of the storiesthat have yet to be told or
aren't told enough. Like, whenyou heard that thinking about,
like, a Toronto context, whatcame to mind for you?

Robyn Grant-Moran (54:32):
I thought about the idea of setting things
in Black Creek Pioneer Villageor Fort York, and places that
have a lot of history behindthem and not often pleasant
histories. But how you canreally bring things to life with
immersive theatre and engagewith things, and reckon with

(54:54):
things very differently. Like,for example, two summers ago, I
went to see this project calledCircus Riot, and it was about a
true bit of Ontario history thatinvolved some clowns getting
into a fight at a brothel. Butit was this hilarious bit of

(55:17):
history. It was produced at TheJunction, in a parking lot, and
you basically, you know, youstarted in the tent and went
through what the circus was likeat that time. And then you got
shuffled off to the brothel, tothe bar, where there were pole

(55:39):
dancers, and there wasbeer-drinking and peanut-eating.
And then you got to go out andriot. So, you got to really
engage with this history and bepart of it, and understand it.
And as absurd and as silly asthe story was, it was just a
really cool way to understandhistory.

Julie McIsaac (56:02):
Right.

Robyn Grant-Moran (56:03):
And It wasn't this one-dimensional, on a page
in a history book; it was thisreal, living, breathing thing
that happened. And you couldunderstand it as happening, and
how and why it happened.

Julie McIsaac (56:17):
I'm glad to, like, talk about the Toronto
context because I was reallydrawn to the fact that "Okay,
Yuval's done this stuff in L.A.,and then he's gonna be in
Detroit, and then Debi's on thewest coast in Vancouver," and I
was struck by how they reallyuse the specific places and the
specific artists in theircommunities to do their work,
and yet, there's principles towhat they're doing that could be
applied to any communityglobally. And, so, I appreciate

(56:40):
you making the Torontoconnection for us to, like,
"Here's an example of this kindof thing happening here," or for
listeners to start thinkingabout "What are the
possibilities in terms ofstaging these kinds of works
here in the city?"

Robyn Grant-Moran (56:50):
And, as a director, how would you approach
immersive theatre? Where wouldyou put it?

Julie McIsaac (56:57):
I think, like, what's coming to mind for me
initially is not so much about aspecific place, but about the
idea of surrendering control,which is really interesting to
me in the sense of putting downsome foundational groundwork
because you want the experienceto be meaningful and you're
going to make conscious choicesabout the "who," and the
"where," and the "why," and,yet, really wanting to leave all

(57:19):
that space for the audience tohave control over their
experience to a certain extent.
I agree with you about BlackCreek Village and those places
where, for the last century orso, it's been like, "This is
history." It's been, like, avery rigid, perhaps, and not so
alive telling of history, thatthe idea that by virtue of

(57:42):
having a live storytelling eventhappen in those places, that it
just humanizes things as well,because I think that's the
trouble, I think, with thehistory book approach.

Robyn Grant-Moran (57:54):
And it's so mediated, too. Like, when
history is written in a book,it's written with a very
specific agenda

Julie McIsaac (58:01):
Yeah.

Robyn Grant-Moran (58:03):
by a very specific group. And by virtue of
bringing it to life, you'regiving audiences different
perspectives.

Julie McIsaac (58:13):
Yeah,

Robyn Grant-Moran (58:14):
Making it easier to question.

Julie McIsaac (58:16):
I think about the CN Tower, and I think about
Toronto Island, particularly thefact that they're on the
Waterfront, that they'reconnected with the waterways,
like, just thinkingtraditionally, and over
millennia, how those placesmight have been used and revered
and visited, and then what theyare in the contemporary Toronto
context. I think that would bereally rife for exploration.

(58:48):
That's it for Episode 14 of KeyChange. Thanks so much for
joining us.

Robyn Grant-Moran (58:52):
We love hearing your comments and
feedback and look forward tohearing your thoughts on what we
talked about today. Tag us onsocial @CanadianOpera, or drop
us a note at [e-mail].

Julie McIsaac (59:07):
We appreciate all the feedback we've received so
far, including your reviews onApple Podcasts.

Robyn Grant-Moran (59:12):
Next time on Key Change
topic of opera and criticism. Ifyou recall, we first chatted
about this in Episode 10 withclassical music critic Anne
Midgette, and there was so muchto explore that we broke this
one into a two-parter.

Julie McIsaac (59:25):
So, we'll pick up that thread next time with Karen
Fricker. Karen's a longtimetheatre critic who writes and
reviews extensively for theToronto Star. We talked to her
about arts criticism ashistorical record, the idea that
our critical interpretations ofproductions now is an important
lens for future generations tobetter understand the context in
which a show was created andstaged.

Robyn Grant-Moran (59:47):
And speaking of the future
from Karen about how Canadianyouth are being empowered to
find and use their voices inresponse to what they see on
screen and on stage.

Julie McIsaac (59:57):
You definitely don't want to miss it

Robyn Grant-Moran (59:59):
Bye, everyone!
Be the first to find out aboutfree events and concerts from
the COC by signing up for ourmonthly eOpera newsletter at
coc.ca/eOpera.

Julie McIsaac (01:00:21):
Thank you to all of our supporters for making Key
Change possible. This week wewant to especially thank every
COC member, subscriber, anddonor for coming on this journey
with us as we explore new waysto share opera's unique power.

Robyn Grant-Moran (01:00:35):
So, to make sure you don't miss an episode,
subscribe to Key Change whereveryou get your podcasts.

Julie McIsaac (01:00:42):
Key Change is produced by the Canadian Opera
Company and hosted by RobynGrant-Moran and Julie McIsaac.

Robyn Grant-Moran (01:00:49):
To learn more about today's guests and see the
show notes, please visit ourwebsite at coc.ca/KeyChange.