Episode 16: An Opera House Like No Other

Celebrating 15 years since its opening in 2006, the Four Seasons Centre for the Performing Arts in Toronto is a spectacular opera venue, community hub, and home to the Canadian Opera Company. This week, Robyn and Julie look back on the building’s origins, legacy, and future with three guests who all hold a very special connection to the performance space: Jack Diamond, lead architect of the Four Seasons Centre and co-founder of Diamond Schmitt Architects; Janice Oliver, who oversaw design and construction of the opera house; and world-renowned soprano Sondra Radvanovsky, a regular presence on the COC's mainstage. Join us for a collection of inspiring, heartwarming, and hilarious stories as we mark a milestone for this home of Canadian opera.

Episode Transcript

Julie McIsaac (00:00):
Hi everyone, welcome to "Key Change
Podcast," where we exploreeverything about opera from a
fresh perspective.

Robyn Grant-Moran (00:18):
We're your hosts, Robyn Grant-Moran

Julie McIsaac (00:21):
and Julie McIsaac. Hello, everyone, and
welcome to Episode 16, our finalpodcast of the spring.

Robyn Grant-Moran (00:29):
Before we get into today's topic, we really
want to just stress how much funwe've had exploring opera's many
facets, and how glad we are tohave had you, our listeners,
join us along the way.

Julie McIsaac (00:41):
We've also really loved hearing from you. Thank
you for reaching out to us overemail and also for the reviews
you leave on Apple Podcasts,which are really great for
helping people find their way toKey Change episodes.

Robyn Grant-Moran (00:52):
We'll be taking a break at the end of
this season but keep thosecomments and questions coming.
Tag us anytime on social@CanadianOpera, or email us at
[e-mail].

Julie McIsaac (01:06):
Now we've had a chance to speak with some of the
world's greatest operaperformers and creators and, a
tiny teaser here, a little lateron in the episode we'll hear
from renowned Canadian-Americansoprano Sondra Radvanovsky. So
many artists, at one point oranother, have either worked,
performed, or spent time in oneof Toronto's premier performance
venues, which also just happensto be the home of the Canadian

Opera Company (01:28):
the Four Seasons Centre for the Performing Arts
[FSC].

Robyn Grant-Moran (01:32):
We started our podcast talking about the
opera house, and now we findourselves ending this season by
coming full circle and returningto the place we began a very
special space we can't wait tophysically return to

Julie McIsaac (01:44):
Indeed! Now this fall marks the 15th anniversary
of the opening of the FourSeasons Centre in 2006. The
building was Canada's firstpurpose-built Opera House
meaning a venue specificallyengineered to enhance the
acoustics of opera singers andan orchestra. You may recall
[when] we spoke with acousticianBob Essert back in the fall for
Episode Two [Sounds Like Opera].

Robyn Grant-Moran (02:04):
And today we'll begin by learning more
about the extraordinary craftingof the opera house, which was
designed by the award-winning,Toronto-based firm Diamond
Schmitt Architects, led by JackDiamond and Donald Schmitt.

Julie McIsaac (02:16):
We were thrilled to arrange some one-on-one time
with Jack himself to be able tolook back on a spectacular
architectural achievement andsignificant cultural
contribution.

Robyn Grant-Moran (02:27):
So let's hear from Jack.
Hi, Jack. Thanks for joining ustoday. When people think of an
opera house, they're usuallyenvisioning heavy, decadent
design the kind of aestheticthat may have been popular over

(02:48):
200 years ago. But the FourSeasons Centre is really quite
sleek and minimalist. What wasyour design inspiration?

Jack Diamond (02:56):
Well, first thing to say is that architecture is
an inevitable expression of itscommunity and its culture: as
much as you try to avoid it,that in itself is an expression
of the culture! The traditionalopera house was in a culture in
which there was a really highhierarchy; there is a social

(03:19):
structure. And, so, all of the"hoi polloi" came through the
main doors, and "roos" wentthrough the side door, at the
back, up a miserable littlestaircase. So, the first thing
to say about this shift is thateveryone comes into the main

(03:39):
entrance at the same place. Andthe public areas are held by
everyone there's a socialintegration in the design as a
start. I remember going to theopera house in Paris and there's
a tiny little space at the topor the upper balcony, a
miserable one. The same is truein the traditional ones in St.

(04:03):
Petersburg. So, the principalpoint here is that everyone
comes in the front doortogether, everyone shares in the
public spaces and there's noinhibition. Canada, in my view,
is among the best in the westerndemocracies, and part of that

(04:23):
are the art facilities thatthey've held, and we were really
deficient in terms of an operahouse and mental health. So, the
drive to "war" by RichardBradshaw which was he call it
the "30-year war" it wasimportant to have a contemporary
one. It's an expression of ourtime, its transparency is there,

(04:47):
it's available to everybody, andeveryone who comes from the same
space and mixes in the samelobby.

Julie McIsaac (04:52):
Considering the diversity of buildings that
surround the Four Seasons CentreI'm thinking about
neoclassical Osgoode Hall, theBeaux-Arts style of the Canada
Life building, and the modernistToronto City Hall how did you
conceive of the Four SeasonsCentre fitting into that local
landscape?

Jack Diamond (05:08):
Well, first of all...downtown Toronto means
that you can gamble or doanything and certainly people
do! What it does, in anothersense, [is] absolutely honour
the urban design. If thebuilding goes up to the
sidelines and fills the block,there's no setback to destroy

(05:29):
the continuity of thestreetscape...in terms of
urbanity. The second thing Iwould say is that it's unusual,
in that it pays attention to theCanadian climate. What we've
done essentially is to capturethe sidewalk, what the public
areas are really, almost ifyou've seen the transparency,

(05:54):
and you see the public access tothat, it means that we have
enclosed the sidewalk we'vemade it into a public space. So,
there's both streetscapecontinuity, as well as a
conditioning, which is anacknowledgment that we have snow
and cold in winter.

Robyn Grant-Moran (06:13):
I'm curious about the use of glass, where
you're talking abouttransparency, and accessibility
and inclusion. And downtownToronto, in that area, the only
buildings that have so muchglass are condos, which aren't
transparent and inclusive. So,I'm wondering if you can talk a

(06:37):
little bit more about thatdesign choice and the human side
of it?

Jack Diamond (06:43):
Well, when you're in a corner and you've got
lights, and you've got abuilding facing you, you draw
the curtains. In terms of"Toronto at night," well, first
of all, glass buildings are nottransparent in the daytime
because the level of intensityis greater outside than inside.

(07:03):
As the level of light intensityon the inside is greater than
outside, then you have realtransparency. And, of course,
most of the opera performancesare often after dusk, and so the
lighting of those public areascreate enormous transparency.
And what's important, implicitlyin your question, is that, in

(07:29):
fact, what it does is remove theinhibitions that people might

have about opera (07:34):
we see...in jeans going to the opera, but
they're having fun; it lookslike a party because there's a
bar there and peoplecirculating. So, that
transparency createsaccessibility not just
physically but mentally. That isin part why the opera house has
been as successful as it has. Iknow for the first few years

(07:59):
and I hope that that'scontinuing that the average
age [of an audience member]year-over-year was dropping, and
that one of the things that wedid to create that familiarity
and accessibility were lunchtimeconcerts. (I think there were
about 90 of them or something.)A line up in winter when it's
freezing outside to get in forthe free lunchtime concert, and

(08:22):
it's held in the aerialamphitheatre, which is very
visible from the outside, and Iremember sitting in at a concert
there with the people who werevisiting us from the Mariinsky
Theatre in St. Petersburg. Theywere marveling at the fact that
you could look out and see thecity and contemplate it while

(08:44):
listening to the music. Ithought that was a wonderful
comment! So, there's both"transparency in" and
"transparency out." I think thatthat leads me to the next and, I
think, the most important point.
There's a question that thebuilding pays attention to the
rising interest in excitement ofa performance. First, you're in

(09:07):
this completely transparentroom, you look out into the
city, you can go to the bar, oryou can circulate among friends.
But, in contrast, the auditoriumis absolutely not transparent,
and there is a narrow openinginto it. So, the sequence of the

(09:29):
rising excitement that you wouldnormally have at a cocktail
party with the same mix ofpeople in the bar and so forth
here there's the anticipation,and the anticipation is that
through very narrow doorways,everybody goes into a completely
enclosed environment, and thenwhat is suspended is the rest of

(09:53):
the world, and you focus on thedrama. There's a very wonderful
transition from city to CityRoom, and from City Room to [R.
Fraser Elliott Hall] auditorium,and that sequence itself is a
way of enhancing the experience.

Julie McIsaac (10:12):
Jack, I love that thinking about the drama or the
dramatic arc of the experienceas someone enters into the
building, and how that's astorytelling or there's a
narrative that's being builtthere and an experience that's
being built there. I've neverthought of it in that way.
That's really, reallyfascinating!

Jack Diamond (10:27):
Well, also, I think once they get inside [the
auditorium], they see what Ithink is crucial in the basic
Italian opera shape, as opposedto the Germanic: it's a
horseshoe, the audience seethemselves. The fact that it's
enclosed is one thing aboutfocusing on the drama of a

(10:51):
dance, but the fact is thatthere's also a sense of
participation in a group thatyou're enjoying together that
there's a commonality that youseldom find outside. And I think
that that sense of givingcohesion to the emotion and to
the view is also part of theItalian horseshoe shape you're

(11:17):
not alone, the Italians are verygood at that.

Julie McIsaac (11:20):
What do you hope the legacy of the building will
be?

Jack Diamond (11:24):
I've given a lot of thought to this question.
First of all, the background toit, in my view, is that Canada
is among the best Westerndemocracies, but it didn't have
an opera house, and the artscontribute enormously to the
quality of life. To me, ofcourse, all the other things are

(11:46):
there by that, [I mean] weneed to have decent wealth
distribution, which we sort ofdo but it's not there in the
right direction, we need to havea good education system, which
we do not; we have universalhealthcare, but it's the arts
that make a significantcontribution to the quality of
life. And of course thefacilities for that are

(12:09):
important. At the, sort of, notthe opening but the opening test
concert, Richard Bradshaw walked... and the first violinist said
to me, "I never knew myinstrument could sound like
that."

Julie McIsaac (12:26):
Oh

Jack Diamond (12:27):
I don't think I've ever heard a better compliment
on the emotional side, and onmusical side. So, I think that I
haven't designed a buildingwhich now has universal and oh,
yes. Unfortunately, the currentArtistic Director who's leaving
us, Alexander Neef, told me thathe came because of the building

(12:52):
from the Paris Opera House.
Well, again, I mean, those arereinforcements of the fact that
the house does stand well.
That's too often! I'm animmigrant to Canada, so I'm not
modest as most of Canadians are.
The fact of the matter is I'mdelighted that the opera house
don't have to apologize. So,there's an important point in

(13:20):
attracting, obviously,world-class performers in both
opera and ballet, but it has

another effect (13:28):
I wanted to encourage the composers
Canadian composers and balletchoreographers that the house
should begin to provideCanadian-based artistic
treatments through the house asa place for its exhibition, are

(13:52):
more likely to gain stage time..every Canadian house. Wel
, I think that the legacy isot merely physical as importa
t as that is but that, in fct, it turns out the encouragem
nt of Canadian, as I said, compsers and choreograp

(14:15):
ers, will develop a Canadian bllet and opera house reputation

Julie McIsaac (14:23):
Thank you, Jack.
That's beautiful. I hadn'tthought about that aspect of it,
but what an additional giftyou've given to Canada in
inspiring those creators!

Jack Diamond (14:34):
The opera house has been open for 10 years
before the pandemic. I havenever been to a performance
and I have season ticketsevery year, when someone hasn't
come up to me, who I don't know

Julie McIsaac (14:48):
I can imagine.
Yeah. How many performances doyou think you've witnessed
there, Jack?

Jack Diamond (14:55):
Usually there are about six [productions per
year], so, sixty!

Julie McIsaac (15:00):
Wow. Thank you, Jack. Yeah, it's been
illuminating and a great honourto have this time to chat with
you today. So, thank you formaking the time and we know our
listeners are just going toreally appreciate getting this
extra insight into that buildingthat they love so much. Thank
you.

Jack Diamond (15:16):
Thank you for asking.

Julie McIsaac (15:22):
I'm really grateful that we actually got to
meet Jack and have thatconversation with him. He's
someone whose name I've heardvery often around the company,
and it was great to actuallyhear from the man himself,
particularly around all theintentionality and all the
thought that went into theexperience that people would
have occupying this physicalspace.

Robyn Grant-Moran (15:42):
Yeah, like from the transparent windows,
where you can watch people fromthe outside, and then going into
that space. And when I go to theopera, I'm always really excited
because I'm going to the opera,and that's a thrilling event for

(16:03):
me! But that he so intentionallycrafted that space to continue
that momentum and to makeaudience members excited.

Julie McIsaac (16:13):
And the rising action of that experience
it's outside they're in thecity but outside and then they
go into that first area, andthen those narrow passageways
that take them into the nest ofthe auditorium where the magic
happens.

Robyn Grant-Moran (16:26):
Right? And that they're there functionally
for acoustics but also to createa sense of drama like, I love
that dual-purpose of them.
Speaking with Jack really mademe think about what a feat it
was building a venue designedentirely around sound in the
middle of downtown Toronto. Forthose of you who might not have

(16:47):
visited the building before, theopera house is located just
blocks south of hospitals; it'sacross from [Toronto] City Hall,
there's streetcars, and traffic,and the subway underneath. And
there's even the occasionalchampionship parade that goes
by.

Julie McIsaac (17:03):
Yeah, definitely.
So, plans for the building ofthe opera house were first
announced in 2002, and therewere almost four years between
that announcement and theinaugural opening in 2006. So,
we're guessing that timeline wasabsolutely necessary for the
extensive planning and logisticsinvolved in executing a project
like this.

Robyn Grant-Moran (17:22):
Oh, I'm sure, which is why I'm really glad we
got the chance to connect withJanice Oliver as our next guest.
As executive director of theCanadian Opera House
Corporation, she was directlyinvolved in the construction of
the Four Seasons Centre.

Julie McIsaac (17:35):
Yeah, among her many duties, she helped to
ensure the project was completedon budget and on time, and she
managed the very many, manypeople who had a hand in the
project from the architectsand builders to COC staff and
donors. She was also there forthe first commissioning or
testing concerts held at the FSCin April 2006.

Robyn Grant-Moran (17:55):
These concerts were meant to test the
acoustics of the space, andlocal schoolchildren were
actually the very firstaudiences for these
performances.

Julie McIsaac (18:04):
We started by asking Janice, "How did she
first become involved in such anambitious undertaking?"

Janice Oliver (18:16):
In the summer of 2002, I had left my position at
the University of Toronto, andpart of my responsibilities had
been the hiring of architectsand oversight of the design and
construction of all therenovations and construction of
new buildings. So, I had metJack Diamond and Don Schmitt

(18:39):
many times over the years Iworked there, and when Kevin
Garland left to go to theNational Ballet [of Canada],
they recommended to Richard[Bradshaw] that he approach and
interview me for the position.
And I had become very interestedin opera in the prior couple of
years, and so it was ofinterest. So, I went to the

(19:00):
interview committee, and I thinkRichard was most impressed that,
in the summer before 2001, I'dgone to Seattle for the Ring Cyc
e. So, anyway, I got the job andI think it was just won

(19:23):
erful; it turned out to be thebest job I ever had.

Julie McIsaac (19:29):
And when you think now of your involvement
with this project and workingthat best job you ever had, what
springs to mind about that time?

Janice Oliver (19:37):
Well, it was such a team effort. It was really,
really wonderful. Everybody knewwe were building a very special
building was gonna last 100years, and it was a project of
continuous creativity, I guess Iwould say. It started with a
Diamond Schmitt, the architects.
They had three young associatesworking with Jack, Gary

(19:59):
McCluskie, Michael Treacy, andMatthew Lella, and they were
terrific designers and terrificproblem solvers, and they just
rolled with the punches atwhatever came new them. And what
I loved was that developmentasked Diamond Schmitt to give
presentations of the design tosmall groups of donors. Well,

(20:24):
obviously Jack couldn't do allof them, so the three associates
had to step up to the plate. Andit was wonderful seeing them
grow in their presentationskills with the donors it was
really great. And then the otherpart was COC. I mean, COC is not
a big organization, as you know,and yet everybody pitched in and
really helped with the project.

(20:48):
We had the technical group,first of all, under Bruce
McMillan and then Julian, and tey worked with the archi
ects to make sure that all the rquirements for the techn
cal needs of the building werencorporated into the desig
and they educated them as to wht was needed. And then from

he orchestra (21:07):
Ian Cowie, we ha a mock up of the orche
tra pit, and he came in and iwas quite an interesting dialo
ue between the acquiition, Jack and, you know, Ian a
to what were the needs of the ochestra pit. And then finan

e (21:25):
Lindy Cowan, they fille out all the forms for the gover
ment, for the grants, and thenegotiated we needed a const
uction loan to bridge the amounof money needed between when
e got the donor money and whene had to pay the bills so, L
ndy negotiated that loan. And ten the development team under

(21:45):
Wendy McDowell was unbelevably creative: I mean, for t
e groundbreaking ceremony, we wee up there on the parking lot
it was the site of the buildng and they had had it all m
rked out, the whole design of thbuilding so people could under
tand they were in the orchetra pit, or they were in the o
chestra, and it was wondeful. But their greatest coup

(22:06):
as getting PCL [Consruction] to allow the donor
to go through the buildng I mean, this is a total
"no no" on construction sitesyou do not let anybody other
than trades on constuction sites. But they persu
ded PCL, and so soon there was aroom just full of const
uction boots and hard hats,and PCL said, "Okay," the devel

(22:31):
pment team had to take the PCL sfety course, and one of them
ad to take the St. John Ambulnce [first training], and it wo
ked out really well. And it wareally exciting going with
ome of the donors up the scafflding to the ceiling if you'd
like now going up to that ceilig, it's incredible! And the a
oustic plastering that was goingon up there and, in fact, the c

(22:54):
ntractor under PCL, had to get to guys out of retirement becau
e it was such fine work thathey had to do up there, that
hey really needed the the craftmanship of these retired guys.
And then we had the facilties group, Alexandra [inaudibl

(23:17):
] had to give help on gettig old furniture, cycling band
, all the stuff needed torun a building. And then we h
d the education group under Crolyn Holloway, and the
were wonderful because theyet up the commissioning concer
with all the school groups. Andthen, of course, Richard and Ro
Lamb and Claudine [Dominguewere there always for advi

(23:39):
e and councils, so, it was rally, really wonderful. And th

n the donors (23:42):
we had a bu lding advisory committee, and Ja
k and I had to go anmake presentations to the
, and discuss issues and concern, and at one of them, Jack was t
lking about the fact that hewould really love to have the p
emium glass for the facde on University Avenue, and wha

(24:03):
that means is glass, which Iidn't know, has a greenish tin
, and the premium glass prettmuch eliminated this greenish
tint. So, it was going tbe a $500,000 and obviously th
t was not in the budget, butne of the gentlemen on the bu
lding committee, a donor wo had already very generously

(24:24):
iven, stepped up and gave theextra $500,000, so that we coul
have the magnificent facade tat we now do. So, it was just
uch a special team effrt of everybody, you know? Lik
, the architects, PCL, acquistion, the COC it was wond

(24:44):
rful. Everybody was there tryng to problem solve and get th
best building they possibly

Julie McIsaac (24:49):
We talk a lot about the opera production you
know, the act of bringing aproduction to the stage is such
a huge collaboration butyou've really illuminated for
us, Janice, the fact that thebuilding of the building
involved the same level ofintegration and collaboration
between departments.

Robyn Grant-Moran (25:06):
So, I understand that some very lucky
schoolchildren were among thefirst to get a sneak peek at the
venue. What were their reactionslike?

Janice Oliver (25:15):
They were great because, first of all, just even
going into the facility, I wasup in the fifth ring, and there
was this little boy and he juststopped, he said, "Oh, I've
never been in such a beautifulhouse in my life," you know? And
they were wonderful because aspart of the commissioning, the

(25:37):
acquisition did a number ofexercises, and you had to be
totally, totally quiet, and allthese kids were dead quiet, and
we did the same concert foradults and they were not as
quiet. But the best story wasRichard told the story of there
was a little boy behind him, andwhen Richard turned to the

(26:00):
podium to begin the concert, thelittle boy said, "Go dude! Go
dude!" which was really sweet!We also had a commissioning
concert for the trades peoplewho were involved in it, and
asked them to come andparticipate as part of it. So,

(26:21):
there was a really big uptake onthat, that they got to show off
because they could bring aguest, [or] to their family,
what they have been part of andcreated. So, we held special
concerts there in thecommission.

Julie McIsaac (26:36):
Then we'd love to time travel with you a little
bit, Janice, and thinking backto when the opera house then
opened for an opera production,for the very first time: what
are your recollections of thatday, of that moment?

Janice Oliver (26:48):
Excitement, relief! That we had actually
done it on time and on budget,we had a beautiful building, the
hall had great acoustics andgreat sight lines, and everyone
was full of praise! I hope thatRichard and the rest of the

(27:12):
artists took great pride in thefact that the Ring Cycle was
listed by the New York Times asone of the top productions of
the year. So, that was a great,great accolade for it. Well, I'd
like to say kudos to [Director,Four Seasons Centre for the
Performing Arts] Alfred Caronand his crew because, you know,
the building today, 15 yearslater, is still outstanding, you

(27:35):
know? He's just kept it to sucha high standard. So, it's
wonderful walking into it; it'salmost like walking in [for]
your very first time again,

Julie McIsaac (27:43):
What are you most looking forward to in terms of
being able to return to thatbuilding on the other side of
this strange era that we'reliving through?

Janice Oliver (27:52):
I agree. You know, I try to watch opera on
the screen but it's just not thesame it is absolutely not the
same. So, I'm just so wanting tobe into an environment with an
audience and a live production,and that whole experience. You
just can't beat it.

Robyn Grant-Moran (28:16):
Oh, my goodness, that story about the
boy in the first row. So cute!

Julie McIsaac (28:21):
So wonderful! It's like the stuff of COC
legend! Our producer Giannaactually found a clip of Richard
recounting that same memory ofthat moment, just before he
conducted the overture from TheMagic Flute, and it's so
charming. We just had to shareit.

Richard Bradshaw (28:39):
I was glad that the first audience in the
house was children, and theywere a marvelous audience. And,
so, it was a very exciting thingto come out and realize that
this was the audience of thefuture. And I came out and the
children were very nice, andthey clapped and so on. And then
I turned around to start and theyoung gentleman in the front
row, aged approximately seven,said, "Go dude! Go dude!" That

(29:04):
was pretty nice. I felt about 40years younger.

Robyn Grant-Moran (29:16):
Well, our final guest for today's episode
is someone who has personallyexperienced a very special view
famed soprano Sondra Radvanovsky

Julie McIsaac (29:26):
Yeah, Sondra has gazed out at a full house of
audience members as seen fromcenter stage, and is one of the
COC's most celebrated stars.
She's sung the title roles inthe company's previous
productions of Rusalka, AnnaBolena, and Aida. And, since the
start of the pandemic, Sondralaunched and now co-hosts
Screaming Divas on YouTube withfellow soprano and her good
friend Keri Alkema.

Robyn Grant-Moran (29:49):
Sondra has appeared on stage at some of the
world's most prestigious operahouses. But as someone who spent
considerable time on the COCstage, we wanted to get her take
on what infuses that space withthat intangible magic.

Julie McIsaac (30:03):
Yeah, we touched on this in our very first
episode of the podcast, in ourchat with soprano Angel Blue.
This is how she remembers herfirst impressions of the space
at the FSC, and her first timesinging on its stage.

Angel Blue (30:16):
Not every opera house has that where you can
actually feel like you're reallya part of the city, like, "This
is the cultural section of thecity," that's a really cool
feeling. But the house itself,singing out on the stage in the
theatre with such a greatacoustic was awesome. You know,

(30:37):
having that kind of support fromthe orchestra, feeling like,
"Okay, wow, I can sing piano inhere" and, you know, my vocal
coach was there with methroughout that time, and he
would go and, like, sit up inthe very top balcony, and he'd
come back down like, "You don'thave to give any more. It's
great. I can hear everything."

Robyn Grant-Moran (30:58):
Yeah, I really felt that too, just how
perfect the acoustics are whilebeing part of the noisy city.
Incredible!

Julie McIsaac (31:04):
A very special combination. And, as we
mentioned, Sondra Radvanovsky isno stranger to the COC and she
had some very special andamusing memories to share with
us.

Robyn Grant-Moran (31:24):
Thanks for joining us, Sondra.

Sondra Radvanovsky (31:26):
Of course! I'm excited to talk well, I'd
say "see you" but it's more like"to talk to you two," so.

Robyn Grant-Moran (31:32):
So, you must have some amazing stories from
the stage. Can you share one ortwo of your fondest memories
from performing at the FourSeasons Centre?

Sondra Radvanovsky (31:41):
Okay, best story from the COC stage
involves my partner in crime forScreaming Divas Keri Alkema.
We're doing the Anna Bolena/JaneSeymour duet the real, you
know, heavy duty duet and I'mswearing at her and telling her,
"You're horrible" and "'go to mmhmm." And apparently I spat on

(32:08):
her! And Keri and I, we are bestfriends. Keri started giggling
uncontrollably in this extremelyserious duet, and, of course, I
then started gigglinguncontrollably, and Keri had to

(32:28):
get up from the floor, and I'msupposed to lift her up and
she's laughing so hard, and Ican't lift her up off the floor.
So, she starts crawling awayfrom me and tries to get our act
together and she goes and leanson the wall, and then the whole
wall started shaking because shewas laughing. I mean, the things

(32:54):
that audience members don't knowand don't see because that night
everybody said, "Wow, that duetwas so dramatic and so
exciting." I was like, "Yeah,what?" Because Sondra spit on
Keri. Didn't know I was aspitter but I guess that night I
was really into the character ofAnne Boleyn.

Robyn Grant-Moran (33:14):
Do you have a favourite COC production that
you've sang in at the FourSeasons?

Sondra Radvanovsky (33:21):
Oh, yes, by far, the Rusalka. That David
McVicar production, once againinvolving Keri Alkema, David

(33:42):
McVicar's production of Rusalkais breathtaking. It was the
physically most demandingproduction I have ever done in

my life (33:51):
crawling on the floor, cleaning up the floor with my
dress, this huge train that Ialways had to be conscious of
where it was, and a stage thatwas, like, rocky, you know, not
an even floor at all, barefoot,and I was, you know, 50 years

(34:11):
old at that time and a50-year-old shouldn't have to do
some of those movements that Ihad to do. But in Act II when
Rusalka is human and I'm mutebecause part of her becoming
human was that, "Yes, you canbecome human but you'll never be
able to say a word," and Kericomes up to me in a moment where

(34:33):
she's supposed to just walk byme as the Foreign Princess and
say, "Well, look, I'm with theman that you love and not you,"
and she comes up to me with herhands and makes a lovely little
fish face. And I'm facing theaudience and I just was, like,
looking at Keri going, "I'mgoing to kill you after this.

(34:54):
I'm going kill you," and shejust nonchalantly just keeps
walking by me and goes [exhaleswhile popping lips] like a fish.
I love her. You see why we'rebest friends?

Julie McIsaac (35:06):
Absolutely.

Robyn Grant-Moran (35:06):
Absolutely.

Julie McIsaac (35:08):
A little bit of cheekiness is essential to any
friendship.

Sondra Radvanovsky (35:12):
Absolutely.
But you know what? I find waysof getting back, you know?

Julie McIsaac (35:20):
Well, and also for this episode, Sondra, we
spoke to lead architect JackDiamond about his intentions
with the design of the space,and previously we've spoken to
Bob Esser, the acousticianbehind the auditorium's
incredible sound. So, we'recurious: for you as a performer,
what's that experience likesinging in the opera house in
Toronto, compared to, say, therelatively modern Lincoln Center

(35:41):
in New York, or the olderRenaissance Revival style Wiener
Staatsoper? What is that like,the experience of singing?

Sondra Radvanovsky (35:49):
I'm going to give you guys a scoop that no

one knows (35:52):
I think I was the very first person to sing on
that stage at the Four SeasonsCentre. It was not completely
finished yet, they had not donea complete opera, they were
giving tours of the theatre and,god bless my mother-in-law I

(36:14):
just wanted to tour of thetheatre, right, with my
mother-in-law and my husbandand she says, "Excuse me, but my
daughter-in-law is SondraRadvanovsky," and I was like,
"Oh, people" and the tour guidesaid, "Well, Sondra, would you
like to go stand on the stageand sing a little bit?" Like,

(36:35):
"Can I just for once just be anobody?" So, of course,
everybody in the tour group waslike, "Oh, you're Sondra
Radvanovsky! Oh, please, go singon the stage!" So, I was one of
the first people to actuallysing on the stage, and it was
really wonderful that I got todo that because this was
probably many years before my"Aida" there, and I got to test

(36:59):
out the acoustics and you'reright: it is amazing! It is, in
my opinion, one of the bestacoustics of any opera house,
because it's all wood, and youdon't have to work hard as a
singer on stage, you're nevercompeting with the orchestra
because the balance of theorchestra to the singers is so

(37:22):
wonderful. I like hearing myvoice come back when I'm on
stage and, in this theatre, Ialways get that sense of my
voice filling the theatre butnot overwhelming it because
they've balanced the live versusdampening levels. And, truly, my
two favourite theatres to singin are the two in Toronto: the

(37:42):
Four Seasons and then over atthe U of T and right now the
name of it oh, come on KoernerHall! Yeah, Koerner Hall. The
best acoustics of any theatrethat I sing.

Julie McIsaac (37:53):
Yeah. Wonderful.
Thank you for sharing thatlittle tidbit of when you first
sang on that stage. A good bit

of a trivia (38:00):
"When did Sondra Radvanovsky first sing on the
stage of the Four SeasonsCentre?" Thank you!

Robyn Grant-Moran (38:05):
After nearly a year-and-a-half of theatres
being shuttered across the city,the Fall will be a homecoming of
sorts for the COC's artists,musicians, creators, and
craftspeople. Just thinkingahead to when you might return

to work at the FSC (38:19):
what are you most looking forward to?

Sondra Radvanovsky (38:23):
Seeing all of you, really. I feel like the
COC is an extended family for meand, you know, it doesn't feel
like work when I'm there. It'sjust such a family feeling from,
you know, top to bottom. AndPerryn Leech: we interviewed him

(38:43):
on Screaming Divas and I cannotwait to actually meet him in
person, you know? It's gonna beexciting, it's gonna be
thrilling, and to be back onthat stage making music again
with a live audience? Yay! Yeah.
That's what I'm looking forwardand not just at the COC,

(39:03):
really everywhere in the world,you know?

Julie McIsaac (39:08):
Yeah.

Sondra Radvanovsky (39:08):
All of us singers, we're one big family
and to not be able to see yourfamily for a year-and-a-half is
horrible.

Julie McIsaac (39:18):
And for listeners who might not know this, you
regularly perform all around theworld, but home for you is
actually just outside ofToronto. And what is it like
having a venue and a companylike the COC to be able to truly
come home to?

Sondra Radvanovsky (39:35):
Well, you know, I'm lucky. I'm lucky that
A) I call Canada my home andToronto my home, and B) to have
such an amazing opera house, myhome opera house and, you know,
it's an opera house that I can,kind of, grow with as my career
changes and evolves and, youknow, I'm 52 now and I've been

(39:59):
doing this for 30 years almost.
You know, at some point, I'mgoing to start to slow down and
not sing the leading roles asmuch and maybe sing secondary
roles, and what better place todo that than here at the
Canadian Opera Company. And tomake that transition into the
next stage of my career in mylife, and to sleep in your own

(40:21):
bed every night, it's a luxurythat I've found actually in the
last year-and-a-half as well.
And also to start teaching voiceand hopefully be a part of the
young artists there at theCanadian Opera Company and to
corrupt their minds, you know,with all the information that

(40:43):
I've been so lucky in my almost30-year career to have culled
from all of these great singers,conductors, artists that I've
worked with, for all theseyears. So, it's all up in my
brain, I just have to get it outand share it with everybody.

Julie McIsaac (41:00):
Oh, well, thank you for sharing all that. If you
imagine the Four Seasons Centre,like, as a person that you could
have a conversation with orspeak to, what would you find
yourself most wanting to say toit at this time, or for it to
know?

Sondra Radvanovsky (41:16):
You know, don't be depressed, don't be
sad. We all love you. And we'llbe back very soon, you know? I'm
giving you a big hug, seriously.
And it's what I tell all myartists and I think of the the
Four Seasons Centre as anartist, because it's just one
element of the show, and withoutevery element we can't have a
show, and right now we'remissing that key element, and

(41:40):
they are the theatres the mostkey element right now and that
is having a space to perform in.
And, so, I'm coming for you.
Just hold out a little longer,please.

Julie McIsaac (42:21):
I think we're all longing to get back home, to get
back to that opera house that welove so much, and now we have a
few moments like, for you andme, Robyn to think about "What
is the significance of thatbuilding?"

Robyn Grant-Moran (42:34):
Yeah, it's community. Like, opera comes
with a lot of baggage, and a lotof people hold the idea of it
being elitist and oftenrightfully so. But how you can
use architecture to physicallystart to dismantle some of these

(42:56):
ideas and help build new, andmore inclusive, and
representative narratives isjust amazing to me.

Julie McIsaac (43:04):
Yeah. So, I think about, like, we talked about how
from the moment they enter thebuilding, we want people to feel
included in the experience, butit brought my attention to the
fact that it actually startsbefore they even get inside the
building in the sense of, "Whatare they seeing from the
outside? What is thattransparency? What is that image
that they're seeing that mightmake them feel like they might
have a good time, and might beinterested, and might feel
included if they were to enter?"

Robyn Grant-Moran (43:25):
Yeah and, like, if you're walking on
University Avenue or QueenStreet, you might see people in
fancy outfits, but you're alsogoing to see people showing up
in jeans and khakis and just,like, coming from work.

Julie McIsaac (43:39):
Totally. Yeah.

Robyn Grant-Moran (43:40):
And that variety is so wonderful just to
see from the outside before youeven get to the door.

Julie McIsaac (43:48):
And if you're seeing, like, a Free Concert
Series, like, midday, you mightbe seeing a dance troupe, or you
might be seeing you know,there's such a variety of
artistic expression that happensin that space and that you might
witness from outside of that andwant to come on in and take
part. Hayden Park [SecondarySchool] is one of our partners
in the Opera Makers program thisyear, and the secondary students
from Hayden Park happened to bewalking by the building and they

(44:10):
saw activity happening in theRichard Bradshaw [Amphitheatre],
and it made them think, "Hey,we'd like to do something with
the Canadian Opera Company. Thatlooks like fun, we'd like to
take part!" And then apartnership grew out of that.
So, that makes me think that thebuilding is accomplishing
exactly what Jack set out tomake it do, and that is really
beautiful to observe.

Robyn Grant-Moran (44:31):
Yeah, because that doesn't always happen
like, you have your intentionand the impact, so, it's so nice
when they line up.

Julie McIsaac (44:37):
Mm hmm. I was also really struck by what
Janice shared about all thecross-departmental collaboration
that happened, so that there'ssomething about the building of
the opera house that brought outconversation, and collaboration,
and people learning new skillsand people growing through their
existing skill set. And it'sjust really lovely to hear that
that was such a part of the"building of the building

Robyn Grant-Moran (44:59):
I agree that, like, I remember watching the
building go up just being inawe, like, how do you make
something like this happen? And,so, to hear how much sharing
there was that went into thecreation of it was just
beautiful.

Julie McIsaac (45:18):
Yeah, and something that Jack said, too,
about him having that hope ofinspiring creators, composers,
and choreographers, and havingthis place for Canadian artists
to hone their craft at home, andthey can do work in a space that
really reflects the level andthe capacity of their talents.
It's so important for us to havethat here in the city, here in

(45:40):
the country.

Robyn Grant-Moran (45:41):
Yeah, like, we have so much talent in this
country, and it's not accessiblefor everyone to just go to
Europe and get trained. And, so,for us to have this space where
we can really nurture our owntalent, and tell our stories,
and develop our stories, it's athrilling thing, and I know he

(46:07):
really successfully executedthat vision.

Julie McIsaac (46:11):
Yeah, it's wonderful to know that there's a
space that can honour theexpanse of vision that we know
Canadian creators have, and toserve as an inspiration for the
next generation.

Robyn Grant-Moran (46:20):
Yeah. And, like, within the COC, we talk
about the COC family and I lovethat analogy like, the
building is like the cornerstoneof the family, we're always
trying, we're always striving tobe the best that we can be. And
that, like, the physicality ofthe actual building really

(46:43):
inspires that, with thetransparency.

Julie McIsaac (46:46):
You're making me think that, in saying it's the
cornerstone of a family, it'sthinking, like, of the COC, the
kitchen is the Four SeasonsCentre, like, it's the kitchen
party of the opera company, orof the opera. And, in the
absence of that this year, notbeing able to access that space
and gathered there together, I'mjust so grateful to have had
this opportunity with you andwith the podcast to gather and

(47:08):
have conversations.

Robyn Grant-Moran (47:10):
Yeah. And, like, I have so many memories of
great conversations at the FourSeasons Centre, and you and I
having great conversations atthe Four Seasons Centre before
and after performances, and thatwe get to do this publicly and
bring people in is an honour!

Julie McIsaac (47:29):
Absolutely! I recall, like, going early just
to be able to meet up withpeople, and have a drink, and
have a chat.

Robyn Grant-Moran (47:35):
Yeah, yeah.

Julie McIsaac (47:36):
And again, in the absence of the opera house, we
know it's not the same, we knowit's just a small little drop in
the bucket. But we've had a lotof fun and we hope you have,
too.

Robyn Grant-Moran (47:45):
Agreed! Thanks, everyone, for listening.
And that is it for Key ChangeEpisode 16. We want to thank all
of today's guests, Jack Diamond,Janice Oliver, and Sondra
Radvanovsky.

Julie McIsaac (48:02):
We also want to thank each and every one of you
for joining us along thisjourney. And Robyn, I want to
thank you for being my intrepidpartner this season as we took
this plunge into podcasting. Ifeel like we've come so far,
we've certainly had tons of funand learned a lot.

Robyn Grant-Moran (48:17):
It's so true.
And when we came up with theidea for the podcast, we were
super excited about digging intoangles about opera that maybe
people don't often think about.
And, along the way, our eyesalso opened to new ways of
thinking about the art form.

Julie McIsaac (48:31):
We're so grateful to everyone who spent time with
us, helping us to illuminate thepast, present, and future of
this art form that we all loveso much. Now is probably a great
time to mention that all of thisyear's episodes live online at
coc.ca/KeyChange, and so you cancatch up anytime.

Robyn Grant-Moran (48:49):
Key Change can also be downloaded through
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, andjust about anywhere else you get
your podcasts.

Julie McIsaac (48:56):
We'll be taking this summer to recharge,
contemplate, and hopefully enjoysome beautiful sunny weather.

Robyn Grant-Moran (49:02):
But if over the next few months you catch up
on an older episode and havesome thoughts, we want to know!
Tag us anytime on social@CanadianOpera, or email us at
[e-mail]. We're nevertoo busy to talk opera!

Julie McIsaac (49:18):
For now, wishing you all a safe happy summer
ahead!

Robyn Grant-Moran (49:21):
Bye, everyone.
Be the first to find out aboutfree events and concerts from
the COC by signing up for ourmonthly eOpera newsletter at
coc.ca/eOpera.

Julie McIsaac (49:42):
Thank you to all of our supporters for making Key
Change possible. This week wewant to especially thank every
COC member, subscriber, anddonor for coming on this journey
with us as we explore new waysto share opera's unique power.

Robyn Grant-Moran (49:56):
So, to make sure you don't miss an episode,
subscribe to Key Change whereveryou get your podcasts.

Julie McIsaac (50:03):
Key Change is produced by the Canadian Opera
Company and hosted by RobynGrant-Moran and Julie McIsaac.

Robyn Grant-Moran (50:09):
To learn more about today's guests and see the
show notes, please visit ourwebsite at coc.ca/KeyChange.