January 19, 2021 • 42 mins
Join co-hosts Robyn Grant-Moran and Julie McIsaac for an insightful chat with the COC's current General Director Alexander Neef and the company's incoming leader Perryn Leech. Hear their thoughts on the future of the art form, risk-taking, the genius of Freddie Mercury, and more, in this insider's glimpse into what it's like to lead a major opera company.
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Julie McIsaac (00:00):
Hi everyone, welcome to Key Change
Podcast, where we exploreeverything about opera from a
fresh perspective.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:23):
Welcome to our first episode of 2021. We're
your hosts, Robyn Grant-Moran
Julie McIsaac (00:29):
and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:31):
So, Julie, this is a pretty special
episode. It's not often you geta chance to sit down for a long
chat with the head of an operacompany. And this week we're
speaking to two!
Julie McIsaac (00:41):
That's right, we're chatting with both
Alexander Neef, the COC'scurrent general director, and
incoming General Director PerrynLeech, who begins his role in
March. Now most of our listenersare probably somewhat familiar
with Alexander, who joined theCOC in 2008 and became the head
of Opra national de Paris thispast September. So we'll hear
from Alexander about how he'slooking back on the time that he
(01:04):
spent in Toronto.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:06):
You'll also get to know Perryn. He began his
career as a lighting andtechnical director before moving
into administration. Originallyfrom England, he joined the
acclaimed Houston Grand Opera 14years ago, and was appointed its
Managing Director in 2011.
Julie McIsaac (01:22):
And you want to be sure to stick around to the
very end of the episode where wehave some fun with a lightning
round of questions to really getto know both Alexander and
Perryn outside the opera house.
(01:45):
We are so pleased to have youboth here. What a rare treat for
us to have two general directorsjoining us here today on the
podcast. Welcome, Alexander.
Welcome, Perryn.
Perryn Leech (01:56):
Thank you.
Alexander Neef (01:57):
Thanks for having us.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:59):
For the listeners who might not realize
this (02:01):
this recording is actually happening across four time
zones. So how's everything inParis and Houston?
Alexander Neef (02:08):
It's night in Paris already. We are actually
allowed to rehearse here butyou're not allowed to receive an
audience at the moment. So Iwill be going down after this
conversation for a dressrehearsal of The Magic Flute.
Perryn Leech (02:22):
Yeah, in Houston, it's a beautiful, early, winter
day. So it's cold, crisp, butnot cold by Canadian standards.
So I'm actually sitting on myback deck doing this podcast,
which is a rare treat. I startedoff the pandemic and then went
through the very, very hotsummer months in Houston inside,
and now I can break out again.
So it's kind of fantastic. SoI'm wrapped up warm but it's
(02:44):
it's nice to be outside again.
Julie McIsaac (02:48):
Lovely. And Alexander, we're curious
had to, sort of, pinpoint it,what will you miss the most
about Toronto and the COC.
Alexander Neef (02:58):
You know, I mean, all that has happened
anywhere since March of lastyear, it's a little bit unreal,
because we were confined inToronto [in] the middle of
March, and I left for Parisquite a few months later. But I
still didn't have theopportunity to see anybody, like
(03:20):
all you guys. We've interactedfor, like, 5+ months before my
departure on Zoom and, you know,on the phone. So it's been a
little bit of a weird virtualexistence already. So what I'm
missing is real goodbyesright? which I hope people can
(03:42):
do at some point. And this isall over and travel will be
easier again.
Julie McIsaac (03:47):
Yeah, we're without those, sort of,
threshold moments and ritualmoments where we get to begin
things together and celebratetheir beginnings but, like you
said, also the endings are thenext chapters of things. But,
yet again, that's really whywe're grateful that you're able
to be here with us today justto spend some time reflecting.
And, Alexander, do you havesomething that you would
consider your proudestaccomplishment during your
(04:10):
tenure as General Director [ofthe COC]?
Alexander Neef (04:12):
I don't know. I always think it's up to other
people to talk about that. Ifeel an enormous sense of
gratitude towards not only theCOC but also to Canada for
allowing me you know, 12 yearsis a long time and I was very
young when I came to the COC. Iwas given an incredible
opportunity to lead the companyto, you know, inherit, which I
(04:37):
maintain is one of the greatestopera houses in the world, to
start programming for thatbuilding, to really, in a sense,
properly activate the buildingbecause it was only opened in
2006, two years before Iarrived, and I think there was a
desire to create an ambitiousartistic project for the
building and for the company.
And to be able to embark on thattogether with the people in the
(04:59):
company but also the audience inToronto was really it was
thrilling. You know, sometimesover the last little while I've,
kind of, looked back because youdon't remember all the things
you actually did over 12 years.
And you're like, "Oh, we reallydid that that was actually a
great show!" Yeah, so, I mean,there's a sense of pride of
having been able to do that.
And, you know, again, a great,great sense of gratitude, too.
Julie McIsaac (05:23):
And if you were to sum up that in three words
in terms of the things thatyou're grateful for or have that
pride around what would thosethree words be?
Alexander Neef (05:32):
Well if you really want three words And on
a personal level is "theopportunity to grow" right? And,
on the other side, maybe"opportunity to build".
Julie McIsaac (05:46):
Lovely, yeah.
And, just before we shift gearsa little bit to Perryn, we are
curious about (05:49):
Perryn and Alexander, when did you first
meet? What was that firstencounter between the two of
you?
Alexander Neef (05:56):
It must have been in sometime around 2007
when I was very briefly involvedwith Gerard Mortier's
preparation for his tenure atNew York City Opera, which never
happened. But, at that time, Ihad started traveling, actually,
from Paris at the time I didcrazy things: I flew to Houston
(06:18):
and Chicago for, like, two daysto check out their young artists
programs and find talent that wecould use for City Opera. And
one of the first trips was toHouston and, you know, at that
point, Diane Zola, who Perrynremembers, was still running the
young artist program she's atThe Met now and I went to your
(06:42):
gala, your voice competition andgala, and that was my first
contact with Houston.
Perryn Leech (06:47):
That must be about two months after I started in
Houston, so that will absolutelybe right, I'm sure. Wow, a
better memory than I hadAlexander. I was thinking we
must have been on a dark streetcorner somewhere and had a beer
or something. But, yes, I'm sureyou're right.
Alexander Neef (07:02):
I remember the weather was very nice. Houston
always was my favoritedestination to go to from
Toronto in, like, January andFebruary.
Robyn Grant-Moran (07:12):
So, Perryn, this seems like a really great
time to ask about what drew youto the Canadian Opera Company?
Perryn Leech (07:18):
I love that question because I got asked
that by the board several timesduring the interview process and
I think it shows a very Canadianway of the way you look at your
company. COC is a major playeron the world stage, literally
any general director would beinterested in the opportunity to
come and work at the COC. Youhave a beautiful house, as
Alexander said, that opened in2006, and he's had a amazing
(07:40):
decade of producing the highestquality of artistic work. So
it's a fantastic organization.
It feels very humble to ask thatquestion because literally
everybody should have beenbeating your door down for this
amazing opportunity to come toCanada. But certainly, from a
personal point of view, I workedwith the Canadian Opera Company
many years ago (07:58):
they brought a show to the Edinburgh Festival,
Bluebeard's Castle/Erwartung,the very acclaimed Robert Lepage
show, so I knew the company fromthat I was Head of Lighting at
the time so I knew the companyfrom then. And then, obviously,
I got to know the company whenI'd come over here and I've been
a reasonably regular visitor toToronto as well, to see
(08:18):
performances and shows Houstonand Canadian Opera Company have
co-produced together quite alot. So, it's a very natural
progression fit and I'm thrilledthat the board thought I could
add value to the COC, which is acompany that is already
overflowing with huge talent andreally great critical acclaim.
Robyn Grant-Moran (08:40):
And what were your thoughts about the city
itself?
Perryn Leech (08:43):
Texas and anywhere is different let's be really
clear about that! Houston is theleast Texan city well, Houston
and Austin, to be fair. Houstonis culturally the most diverse
city in the U.S. statistically,and one of the things I've loved
about living in Houston is thatpeople think they have an
understanding and knowledge ofwhat Houston is and, until they
(09:06):
visit and actually spend sometime here, you have no idea.
When I flew in to see if I wasinterested in joining Houston
Grand Opera in late-2006, I knewexactly what Houston would look
like because I'd watched [1978TV series] Dallas with my mum,
Dallas was very close, it wasgoing to be lots of people
riding on horses, prairieeverywhere. And I came into this
(09:27):
beautiful little green oasis ina city. (It's very green Houston
because of, as I now know, therainfall and the temperatures.)
But it's this wonderful meltingpot of a city. You know, yes, I
love to discover the beatingheart of the city quite quickly,
and when I travel I rarely sitstill in a hotel; I walk the
(09:49):
streets, I smell the city andthat's a weird thing to say, but
you get a feel about culture ofa city from the food smell,
through just the generalambience of the city. So I love
nothing better than walkingthrough a city in the early
morning to go and have a walk,or go to the first meeting of
the day or whatever, and feelthe cultural hubbub starting and
(10:11):
just getting into a real feelfor the city. I look forward to
exploring Toronto much more but,you know, we visited as a family
for five days when we wereabout three summers, four
summers ago, and we had somefriends who had a farm just
outside Toronto, so we went andvisited them. It's an amazing
city and the number of peoplewho've invited themselves
(10:31):
already shows that people knowwhat Toronto is because
everyone's like, "Oh, I'lldefinitely come and visit you in
Toronto." "I've been in Houstonfor 14 years and you never once
invited yourself there. Okay"But it I think you'll have a lot
of visits. I'm looking forwardto that.
Robyn Grant-Moran (10:47):
Well, we're certainly excited to have you
come and explore and join us.
You started your career inbackstage and production. How do
you think that impacts how youwork as a General Director?
Perryn Leech (10:59):
I think everybody brings different skills to the
role of General Director. And,you know, Alexander is a
wonderful resource in terms ofhis artistic knowledge, his
breadth of repertoire knowledge,singers, etc, etc., and that has
absolutely raised the bar forCanadian Opera Company in terms
of the artists it can attractand, you know, the ensembles
it's put together. What I bringto it is: I kind of know how to
(11:23):
put opera on. I've worked upfrom the very bottom, I
understand completely that everysingle person has a role, and a
well-tuned engine has to haveall parts of that engine working
in perfect harmony because youcan only achieve greatness if
everything is If you have oneslightly thing that's out of
time, at that point, it justdoesn't work. What I am is
(11:46):
someone who has a very practicalknowledge, I think, a good way
with people, I think I enjoygetting an ensemble together of
people who create work that isgreater than the sum of its
parts. And that's what I'vetried to do in Houston at least
that's why I've beensuccessful in my career. So what
th (12:04):
nobody has all the skills to General Director the portfolio
of skills that you need is justwild, far too wide. So I bring
different skills than Alexander,I will rely on others to bring
some of the skills thatAlexander has. But any good
opera company is run by a teamof people. It's not yes, the
titular head is a finaldecision-maker but it's a team
of people. And one of the thingsI loved most about COC during
(12:26):
the interview process was everyperson I met had this kind of
cool attitude about they wantedto be there, they wanted to do
the best work possible, andthat's a really appealing thing
as a leader.
Robyn Grant-Moran (12:40):
That's been a running theme, too
is really a team sport.
Perryn Leech (12:45):
Yeah. I was in Wales so I went down from
London to Wales and I'd beentold that Welsh National Opera,
where I used to work, was a"family company". And it's
interesting because all three ofthe companies that I worked for
since, at some point, somebodyhas used that analogy. The great
things about nonprofits are thatpeople are drawn to work for
nonprofits because they have apassion for the art, they have a
(13:08):
passion for creatingperformance, and that passion
can always be harnessed if youhave the right way of doing it.
Robyn Grant-Moran (13:15):
Since you've been at Houston for 14 years
now, what's your proudestaccomplishments?
Perryn Leech (13:21):
Yeah, there's no question about the one that
certainly got the most press,which is the fact that we lost
our theater in 2017 to HurricaneHarvey, we were able to relocate
to the convention center and,through a period of time, it was
short-term relocation, amedium-term relief and,
eventually, it ended up beingour entire season. And to be
(13:44):
able to get the organizationthrough that period of time
without losing a single memberof staff, without losing a
single performance, and to keepour donors and our supporters
engaged with the organization,was an absolutely huge lift for
the company. And that was one ofthe places where Houston got
slightly lucky with the factthat I was there, I built
(14:05):
temporary venues of large scalebefore at the Edinburgh
Festival, and I knew how to dothat. And once they'd, sort of,
calm down, once they said,"Look, we're gonna build a venue
within the George R. BrownConvention Center," and
everybody, sort of, looks at mein that way that, "I know he's
my boss but can I tell himthat" (Well, I can't say any
words.) "But can I tell him howmad that is?" And then they sort
(14:28):
of go, "Okay, well, let's" andthen you sit down and go, "Okay,
I've done this before, let'sjust walk it through." And
everyone, sort of, slowly boughtinto the idea and, after the
thrill of doing that theexcitement, the adrenaline buzz
of doing that. If there's adeadline, you kept the deadline.
And we all have deadlines withinthe way we produce shows in, you
(14:50):
know, Alexander has a dressrehearsal night and that leads
to the first batch ofperformance. This was a, sort
of, a deadline on adrenalineacid because, you know, we were
four weeks out from opening theseason, and we had to build an
entire venue, and those arethings which take years and
years to plan normally, etc,etc. So we went for, on paper,
(15:14):
what looked like quite asimplistic way of doing it. But
one of the things that made meproud it was, at the end of that
and all the people who may havebeen a part of making that said,
"There's not much we would havedone differently." We got
virtually everything right Imean, there's no right and
wrong, per se. So, that wascertainly, professionally, one
of the real highlights andsomething that I'm
(15:37):
extraordinarily proud of thework of the company, and being
able to lead them through thatbecause I think it was a big
leap of faith for both thepeople who made the venues, but
also the board. The board had tohave complete and utter faith in
me this was not a situationwhere I was going back to the
board or asking permission foranything. I said, "This is what
we're doing. Hold my beer, I'llbe back in a month and we'll
(15:59):
have a venue, have a seasonwe'll have this." So that was
definitely that. I think interms of the organization, we
are in a much better fiscalfooting than we were nine years
ago, and we've been through nowan economic downturn in Houston
through the oil and gasindustry, Hurricane Harvey, and
a pandemic, and I still leavethe organization in a better
(16:20):
fiscal position than we werebefore. And we've also done the
right thing by our artists andour staff. So we've had ongoing
programs about equity,diversity, and inclusion; we've
substantially increased pay insome areas, which were, in my
opinion, gender-related payissues; we have honest, proper
(16:42):
conversations now about thevalue of everybody in an
organization rather than just afew. And, personally, I find
that to be really rewarding workbecause I think it's a very fair
organization to work for now, ina way that I don't think was
true a decade ago.
Robyn Grant-Moran (16:59):
That's an incredible list of
accomplishments. We're reallyexcited to have you. I know I've
said that before, and we're verysad to be saying bye to
Alexander as well.
Perryn Leech (17:08):
Yeah. You've had some brilliant years under
Alexander; I will bringsomething different. But great
organizations are built aroundstability and people who have
vision for an organization.
Robyn Grant-Moran (17:21):
Now, before I throw it back to Julie and
Alexander, I have one quickquestion: what operas had the
biggest impact on you?
Perryn Leech (17:30):
Yeah. So, actually the answer to that has to be The
Coronation of Poppaea because itwas my first opera. So I was at
drama school, I got to work onthis production at the Royal
Academy of Music of TheCoronation of Poppaea, first
opera I'd ever seen. All Iremember is how long it was and
how you had pre-scene changes todo during this entire opera. And
(17:53):
the challenge was to keep awakeand make sure you had done it.
But that was the opera that thengave me the opportunity to work
with Glyndebourne Festival andbrought me into the world of
opera. So, in terms of impact,unquestionably that is the
biggest impact as it brought meto opera. You can't do a Ring
Cycle without that having anenormous impact on you both
personally, professionally, andorganizationally those things
(18:16):
are things that bring anorganization together. And I
know you didn't ask for threeanswers, but you're getting
three answers anyway (18:22):
the piece that I love the most and really
resonates most with me is CruzarLa Cara De La Luna, which is the
world's first mariachi opera,which we've toured extensively
all over the world, includingthe Chtelet in Paris, and that
piece just sits in my heart in away that I was part of the
creation of it from day one. Andworld premieres are very special
like that (18:44):
you know that you've had a thumbprint on that. And
that piece will always remainone of the artistic highlights
of my life.
(19:19):
I think unquestionably digitalcontinues to grow and become a
more central part of the artform already we've heard of
companies commissioning new workpurely for digital production
I think that's sensible, I thinkit's part of it. But, as
Alexander said, the main eventthe thing that will draw you
(19:41):
back to opera is performances.
It's part of the same symbioticcircle, if you don't have the
live part then it will be verydifficult. You know, we've had
success with our digitalprogramming in Houston, but it's
already starting to drop offpeople. Some people just don't
like watching opera on a smallscreen and, you know, we have
amazing capabilities in our ownhomes now. When I was growing
(20:05):
up, we had one black and whiteTV in our house and then color
TV and it was, like, the size ofmy house because it had this
huge tube on the back. And nowwe're at 70-inch screens and
everyone's like, "Oh, you onlygot a 70-inch? Oh my god, you
need an 80". Everything's movedon from that and you've got
sound systems now that supportthat, but it's still not the
(20:26):
same because part of seeing alive performance and this
isn't just opera part ofseeing a live performance is
feeling the reactions of thepeople around you, feeling a
community with people who areexperiencing the piece of art at
the same time, and one of thereasons that the High School
Nights was one of my favoritenights of the opera that we we
(20:47):
do in Houston. Those kids don'tknow how they're supposed to
react at an opera. Theoutpouring of emotion at
different parts of the opera ispure and real because they don't
know that this is coming upit's the first time they've seen
it, they don't know that Rodolfois going to kiss Mim. And you
get this, sort of, intake ofbreath. And everyone you know,
(21:09):
majority of people, if you'vebeen to performing arts, you,
kind of, don't get surprisedvery often, but those kids do
and that's a completely normalreaction. So it's absolutely
thrilling to have that going onaround you and especially for
pieces that you maybe don't knowso well. So, we did a production
of Saul, which is a Handeloratorio that was staged
(21:33):
brilliantly by Barrie Koski, andyou could just see the entire
auditorium dazzled by thistheatrical brilliance, and also
had some controversial momentsin which one or two people chose
to vote with their feet andleave. And so it wasn't all
plain sailing but even thepeople who left, the vast
majority of them wrote saying,"I'm really thrilled you did
(21:54):
this. It's a fantastic thing,just not for me." Based on a
biblical story, we are in thedeep south, so, you know, we
were aware of it, we tried toeducate before people came but
it was too much for some peopleand, you know, that's their
right. I think Alexander wouldagree that you would much rather
someone said, "I loved five ofyour operas this season and
hated two," than went, "Yeah,this season was okay." Because,
(22:18):
at that point, you're not reallyengaging with your audience;
they're experiencing it on avery superficial level. If you
can't remember performances fromthree months ago, then it really
didn't make much of an impact onyou. Whereas, if you're still
talking about it years and yearslater, good or bad. So, the
curation of a season is verymuch about having that mixture,
(22:39):
and making sure that people comeon a journey with you,
understand what the story isthat you're trying to tell, but
they're not necessarily going tolike everything.
Julie McIsaac (22:50):
And, Alexander, I'd love for you to have the
opportunity to answer thatquestion around the
transformation that opera may beexperiencing right now. But,
also, what Perryn just mentionedabout risk: I'm curious, if you
could share with us, what is thegreatest risk that you feel that
you took while you were at theCOC?
Alexander Neef (23:07):
It's the risk, and sometimes the rigor, also,
of trying not to please. What Imean with that is that I think
you also need to program withconvictions and you need to
build a relationship with yourartists and with your audience,
where there's a dialogue thatworks between all of us. Of
course, you want to program whatpeople like but you can't only
(23:31):
program what they want to see,because it would mean you would
only program things that theyalready know, right? And I think
that the proudest moments forall of us are the ones where you
do something and you don'treally know where you're going
and what the result is going tobe. You get hate mail for
everything you do, that's fine,but then you get, you know,
(23:54):
letters from people that say,"Wow, we had no clue that this
would be good," and, "Please domore of this." And that's, I
think, how you start buildingsomething with your audience and
with the artists, you know. Ialways jokingly said, when we
presented Dmitri Tcherniakov'sproduction of Don Giovanni in
Toronto, I jokingly said, "Well,the fact if I'm going to be out
(24:17):
of a job or not after we do thatshow will tell me a lot about my
audience." The interesting thingabout that show for us was that,
yes, of course, we got quite abit of hate mail but we also
actually, I think my very firstshow at the COC, we got a big
number of letters from people[who] said, "This was great. Do
more of this." because they knewthere would be hate mail and
(24:38):
they knew that they also neededto get the positive voice heard.
And that was really interesting.
And what I've always liked aboutthe COC audience is that they
are curious and they don't judgeit before they see it and I
think that's a huge quality foran audience.
Perryn Leech (24:57):
Hate mail in Canada sounds like it might be
quite muted compared to hatemail in Texas.
Alexander Neef (25:01):
And hate mail, of course, is, I admit, a bit of
a harsh word in the age of justtyping something in your
computer and sending it offwithout reading it again
that's easy. And then people doit more when they're angry; they
don't do it when they're happy.
Perryn Leech (25:18):
No, I think that's the thing that's very, very
true and it is interesting. Sowe did Dead Man Walking in
Houston, which is, you know, anopera about the death penalty.
And again, doing that in Texas,which is a state that still has
the death penalty, theconversations it opens up,
allowing the community to have apiece of art as a starting point
(25:39):
for a debate about the deathpenalty, the rights and wrongs
of the death penalty, whether itstill has a place in modern
society, etc, etc. wereabsolutely fascinating. And, of
course, very, very hotconversations at various points
because, you know, it's not anarea that most people are
ambivalent about you have avery strong opinion: you're
(26:00):
either for it or you're againstit. And, you know, I think one
of the challenges we have as asociety now is that people are
becoming more and morepolarized; they don't want to
hear somebody else's view, theywant to tell you why their view
is right. And one of thechallenges we definitely face as
a society is how do we haveconversations in which you are
(26:22):
actually talking about theissue, rather than just
positioning yourself to haveyour heart part heard, and then
not listen to the other part.
Alexander Neef (26:30):
And it's becoming more and more of a
worldwide issue. I mean, itmight be a little bit more
pronounced at the moment in yourcurrent home country, Perryn,
but, you know, I think theability to listen to each other
and the ability to sometimesjust agree in a civil way that
you disagree with each other, Ithink that's the original idea
or theatre (26:50):
together the citizens in a space that is
dedicated to performance, thatallows them to share an
experience go through the samething, collectively and
individually and then, in a way,you know, put issues of society
on stage and allow people byremoving it from the daily lives
and turning it into art, puttingit on a stage to reflect on
(27:13):
their own, you know, being theirown reality, their own issues.
And then for them to not allreach the same conclusion but
they still have shared thatmoment, and then what you said
is very profound, Perryn yearsafter that, still talk about it,
and maybe still not agree butthat culture of exchange and
(27:37):
debate, I think that theater wasinvented to foster that. And if
we can help mend some of thewounds of society currently,
that way I think we've done alot by producing meaningful art
(27:58):
that's more than justentertaining. And, of course, it
should be entertaining but itshouldn't only be entertainment.
Perryn Leech (28:06):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Julie McIsaac (28:09):
Wonderful. And it's a great reminder that as we
heal from COVID, or as we moveforward and look at what opera's
going to look like in the next10 years, there's also this
question that you've raisedabout the increasing
polarization and what role do wehave to play amongst citizens
and as a point of gathering anda place where we can exchange
respectfully around ideas anddisagree together as well and
what role opera has to play inthat. Lots to come in the next
(28:32):
5-10 years. I think it might betime for our lightning round.
Robyn.
Robyn Grant-Moran (28:37):
Okay, question one
meal.
Alexander Neef (28:42):
Oh, usually no time to eat before the show!
Perryn Leech (28:44):
That is exactly what I thought. Whatever is put
in front of me, I'll wolf itdown.
Julie McIsaac (28:53):
First opera?
Alexander Neef (28:54):
Fidelio like, in the theatre,
Perryn Leech (28:58):
Poppaea backstage; Carmen, the first ticket I
bought.
Robyn Grant-Moran (29:03):
Do you guys have pets?
Perryn Leech (29:05):
I have George.
Alexander Neef (29:06):
Harry the poodle.
Julie McIsaac (29:08):
What type of dog is George?
Perryn Leech (29:11):
He's very much an eclectic mix. So he's some
Labrador, some terrier, there'ssome poodle in there, we think.
I'll see if I can capture at theend of this, when we're done
with the questions, I'll see ifI can get you a picture of him.
Yeah.
Julie McIsaac (29:29):
We'd love to meet him! And what's the thing that
makes you smile when you firstwalk into the opera house?
Alexander Neef (29:36):
Well, I mean usually [I] come in through the
stage door, right? So, the firstthing you see is the security
agents the people you smileat, you know, because they keep
us safe.
Perryn Leech (29:48):
I'm not even in the opera house. I'm outside it
and I hear the sound of it. Youhear musicians warming up,
singers warming up. There's nosound like You walk towards the
building and you know Itquickens your heartbeat because
you know that you're about tocreate something or be part of
the creation.
Robyn Grant-Moran (30:06):
What's the last opera you saw live?
Alexander Neef (30:12):
As a performance was actually Ambur Braid as
Salome in Frankfurt on the 1stof March of last year.
Perryn Leech (30:25):
Yeah, I guess mine would be the last performance of
Aida at Houston Grand Opera inFebruary of last year.
Julie McIsaac (30:32):
What's your favorite HGO-COC co-production?
Alexander Neef (30:35):
Oh, we did a couple of really good ones. We
did [A] Midsummer Night's Dream,we did Peter Grimes, which
Perryn Leech (30:42):
Both of which were fantastic.
Alexander Neef (30:45):
Peter Grimes is one of my personal all-time
favorites great, great show.
Well, most recently Turandot. Ialso liked our [La] Traviata. We
did we did a lot together.
Yeah. And the [La] Bohme is Ireally like the Bohme, it's
very immediate. We haven'tactually done a clunker, which
is, again, that's always nice aswell!
Robyn Grant-Moran (31:08):
What's your favourite sports team?
Perryn Leech (31:10):
Okay, this is where I can get myself into a
lot of trouble, so I'm gonnastick with the easy answer,
which is Arsenal Football Club,which is my British football
club not gonna call it"soccer"; it's football because
it's played with a foot and aball, not throwing a ball, which
is called football as well. Ilove my Texan sports teams but
(31:32):
I'm not gonna get myself intotrouble by picking those over
the Blue Jays. So, ArsenalFootball Club is my answer to
that.
Alexander Neef (31:40):
So, sports and I is not necessarily a love
affair. But I've been to greatgames over time you know, the
Blue Jays and other things inToronto. I remember very vividly
a [St. Louis] Cardinals game inSt. Louis a long time ago of all
places. My first time in St.
Louis and I was told you have togo to Cardinals game, so we went
(32:00):
to a Cardinals game. What I likeabout it is the energy, which
is, you know, not dissimilar tothe energy of a theatrical
performance, somehow magnifiedby the sheer number of people.
Julie McIsaac (32:19):
And right now what would be your go to album
or recording?
Perryn Leech (32:22):
Interesting.
Actually, you know, I've beenlistening to a lot less music
through lockdown because I'm onthe phone the whole time. I tend
to be listening to podcasts andthings outside of that. So
actually, bizarrely, I haven'tbeen listening to as much music,
I've actually just startedlistening to more of the plans
that COC have got to the next2-3 years of repertoire just to,
you know, remind myself and getmyself deeper into some of that
(32:44):
repertoire. But running acompany in COVID times, you
spend an awful lot of time notdoing that. And because I am a
very keen sports person, my timeoutside of that is tends to be
watching sporting events andlistening to podcasts rather
than music.
Alexander Neef (33:04):
Well, maybe just sort of a more general remark
mean, I've always been a big,great listener of music first
on the radio when I was verylittle, and later you started
that time it was musiccassettes, like tapes, and then
later came to CD, and then camestreaming. And, you know,
(33:24):
there's been a huge shiftbecause when you actually needed
to buy the stuff, there wasalways this, like, soul
searching, how to invest yourmoney, like, which was the album
that you could settle on whenyou would, kind of, go to the
record store and listen andcompare. What I like about the
streaming stuff is that I listento much more and different
music. In a way it's it's becomemore casual but it's also
(33:50):
allowed me to discover a lot ofthings by the sheer, you know,
fact that, kind of, it's the"subscription effect" in many
ways, like because you're freeto wander and I love that and I
don't have nearly enough time tolisten to as much music as I
would like to. And I rarelylisten to opera because if I
don't have to study a piecewhich is one one thing of
(34:12):
course I prefer it live butthere's other things: I like to
listen to chamber music, a lotof piano solo, and jazz, too,
and ideally with headphones. Ialso don't like to listen to
music while doing somethingelse: when I listen I want to
listen. That didn't answer thequestion about the album, really
Robyn Grant-Moran (34:36):
What's your favorite pop artist?
Perryn Leech (34:37):
Oh, favorite, favorite pop artist? You go back
to The Clash for me. Very, veryinstrumental in growing [up]. I
grew up in a wonderful time inBritish music history: the en
of punk going into new wave. Yeh, I go back that far, I'm af
Alexander Neef (34:56):
Well, I mean just the classics, right? I
mean, I had a phase when I wasactually still in Toronto, when
I was driving my older daughterto school some mornings, and we
would make this habit oflistening to only one album all
the time it was A Night at theOpera, [by] Queen.
Perryn Leech (35:18):
It's good one to listen to!
Alexander Neef (35:19):
Amazing! The confirmation is you listen to
it, like, you know, 100 timesand you still are not done
because there's still thingsthat you discover. And those are
the experiences that I thinkthat's why we're in this
business.
Perryn Leech (35:33):
They were a group and an artist that transcended
what was there. My favorite Mntserrat Caball quote [which] w
s she was asked, you know, "ho is the greatest thing you've
ever sung with?" and she jut turned around and said,
That's easy (35:44):
Freddie Mercur ." And for her to say that
fter all the amazing artiststhat she worked with throug
her career, she was, like, "Hads down, easy: he could do a
ything. If he wanted to sinopera, he could've done th
t! Whatever!" He is the greate
Julie McIsaac (36:25):
Right, we're gonna jump to the last question
on the list (36:27):
three words to describe opera.
Perryn Leech (36:30):
Thrilling, powerful. I had to think of a
third one. Alexander can do thethird one.
Al (36:39):
beauty, truth, and maybe it doesn't really sound so good in
English depth.
Julie McIsaac (36:48):
Perryn, you can keep thinking about it and when
you join in March...
Perryn Leech (36:50):
Yeah!
Julie McIsaac (36:50):
you can let us know. Thank you so much for
spending this time with us.
Wishing you both so much luck inthe rest of your day, the rest
of your evening, and in themonths ahead.
Perryn Leech (37:01):
Bless you.
Alexander Neef (37:01):
Thank you, guys.
It was a pleasure.
Julie McIsaac (37:11):
I'm coming out of that conversation really
excited. Like, we know thatthere's a lot of challenges that
we're dealing with being stillin this COVID era but I was
really excited listening toPerryn speak and listening to
Alexander reflect on his time.
Robyn Grant-Moran (37:25):
But, yeah, it feels like we're at this
precipice within the pandemic,where it's been going on long
enough that we recognize thatdigital media is really
important in a way that itwasn't before. And vaccines are
rolling out. So who knows whatthat means in terms of when live
(37:45):
theatre will begin again but itdoes provide some sense of
optimism for live theatrebeginning again. And where
Alexander has with the workhe's done and then Perryn
picking up the torch and runningwith it, however he's going to
do that. It's just reallyexciting. It's all these things
(38:07):
happening at once.
Julie McIsaac (38:08):
Mm hmm. So Alexander's moving away from the
company but having left it in areally good position.
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:13):
Yeah!
Julie McIsaac (38:13):
In a good way and he's talking that analogy of
the horse, sort of
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:17):
Yeah!
Julie McIsaac (38:18):
The horse just wanting to get out there on the
racetrack and just wanting torace. You know, I certainly feel
that energy and myself as welland speaking with them today, I
do. It's a good reminder thatthere's a lot to look forward
to.
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:29):
Yeah, even though our present is really
challenging and difficult, thereis that light at the end of the
tunnel; there's something tolook forward to.
Julie McIsaac (38:37):
Mm hmm. And that the learnings that we're taking
away from this time like thedigital technology that you
mentioned we'll carry thatwith us and we'll take it
forward. But we know it's nevergoing to replace that live
gathering. And we're so excitedfor that eventual future.
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:52):
I have to laugh. One thing Perryn said
about that TV when he was a boywas black and white and then
moving into colour TV and myfirst TV was about the size of
my laptop screen and black andwhite until I was, like, six or
seven I think we got a colourTV then and it was still about
(39:15):
the size of my laptop screen,and it was very exciting.
Julie McIsaac (39:19):
Oh, yeah!
Robyn Grant-Moran (39:20):
And that natural flow of technology the
progression of technology thatwe need to embrace it but, it's
true, it will never replacebeing in a live theatre, with
live performers, with 1,000people all around you, feeling
(39:42):
that excitement, waiting forthat production to begin,
hearing the orchestra tuning up.
Julie McIsaac (39:49):
The TV that we had, Robyn, it's like you got
two channels fairly reliably,and then there was a third that
you could sort of get if youmove the bunny ears into the
right position, but it wasalways a bit grainy and you
couldn't quite see, so, that'ssort of how I feel right now:
there's, like, this thirdchannel that's emerging.
Robyn Grant-Moran (40:03):
Opera's thrilling and the future
don't know what it's going tolook like but it's going to be
thrilling because it's going tobe a progression from now.
Julie McIsaac (40:13):
Powerful, thrilling, truth, beauty here
we come!We can't wait to hear more from
Perryn as this new era begins atthe COC, and we'd love to hear
from you as well!
Robyn Grant-Moran (40:34):
Yeah. Are you optimistic about the return of
opera and theatre? Do you thinkit can happen anytime soon? Let
us know! We want to know whatyou think and feel.
Julie McIsaac (40:44):
Feel free to send us your questions, your
comments, your ideas by emailingaudiences@coc.ca or tagging us
on social media @CanadianOpera.
Robyn Grant-Moran (40:55):
See you next time
Julie McIsaac (40:56):
when we'll be having a great chat with Rena
Roussin about how opera canserve as a sphere for activism.
Robyn Grant-Moran (41:04):
Be the first to find out about free events
and concerts from the COC bysigning up for our monthly
eOpera newsletter atcoc.ca/eOpera.
Julie McIsaac (41:16):
Thank you to all of our supporters for making Key
Change possible. This week wewant to especially thank every
COC member, subscriber, anddonor for coming on this journey
with us as we explore new waysto share opera's unique power.
Robyn Grant-Moran (41:30):
So to make sure you don't miss an episode,
subscribe to Key Change whereveryou get your podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (41:37):
Key Change is produced by the Canadian Opera
Company and hosted by RobynGrant-Moran and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (41:44):
To learn more about today's guests and see the
show notes, please visit ourwebsite at coc.ca/KeyChange.
Hi everyone, welcome to Key Change
Podcast, where we exploreeverything about opera from a
fresh perspective.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:23):
Welcome to our first episode of 2021. We're
your hosts, Robyn Grant-Moran
Julie McIsaac (00:29):
and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:31):
So, Julie, this is a pretty special
episode. It's not often you geta chance to sit down for a long
chat with the head of an operacompany. And this week we're
speaking to two!
Julie McIsaac (00:41):
That's right, we're chatting with both
Alexander Neef, the COC'scurrent general director, and
incoming General Director PerrynLeech, who begins his role in
March. Now most of our listenersare probably somewhat familiar
with Alexander, who joined theCOC in 2008 and became the head
of Opra national de Paris thispast September. So we'll hear
from Alexander about how he'slooking back on the time that he
(01:04):
spent in Toronto.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:06):
You'll also get to know Perryn. He began his
career as a lighting andtechnical director before moving
into administration. Originallyfrom England, he joined the
acclaimed Houston Grand Opera 14years ago, and was appointed its
Managing Director in 2011.
Julie McIsaac (01:22):
And you want to be sure to stick around to the
very end of the episode where wehave some fun with a lightning
round of questions to really getto know both Alexander and
Perryn outside the opera house.
(01:45):
We are so pleased to have youboth here. What a rare treat for
us to have two general directorsjoining us here today on the
podcast. Welcome, Alexander.
Welcome, Perryn.
Perryn Leech (01:56):
Thank you.
Alexander Neef (01:57):
Thanks for having us.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:59):
For the listeners who might not realize
this (02:01):
this recording is actually happening across four time
zones. So how's everything inParis and Houston?
Alexander Neef (02:08):
It's night in Paris already. We are actually
allowed to rehearse here butyou're not allowed to receive an
audience at the moment. So Iwill be going down after this
conversation for a dressrehearsal of The Magic Flute.
Perryn Leech (02:22):
Yeah, in Houston, it's a beautiful, early, winter
day. So it's cold, crisp, butnot cold by Canadian standards.
So I'm actually sitting on myback deck doing this podcast,
which is a rare treat. I startedoff the pandemic and then went
through the very, very hotsummer months in Houston inside,
and now I can break out again.
So it's kind of fantastic. SoI'm wrapped up warm but it's
(02:44):
it's nice to be outside again.
Julie McIsaac (02:48):
Lovely. And Alexander, we're curious
had to, sort of, pinpoint it,what will you miss the most
about Toronto and the COC.
Alexander Neef (02:58):
You know, I mean, all that has happened
anywhere since March of lastyear, it's a little bit unreal,
because we were confined inToronto [in] the middle of
March, and I left for Parisquite a few months later. But I
still didn't have theopportunity to see anybody, like
(03:20):
all you guys. We've interactedfor, like, 5+ months before my
departure on Zoom and, you know,on the phone. So it's been a
little bit of a weird virtualexistence already. So what I'm
missing is real goodbyesright? which I hope people can
(03:42):
do at some point. And this isall over and travel will be
easier again.
Julie McIsaac (03:47):
Yeah, we're without those, sort of,
threshold moments and ritualmoments where we get to begin
things together and celebratetheir beginnings but, like you
said, also the endings are thenext chapters of things. But,
yet again, that's really whywe're grateful that you're able
to be here with us today justto spend some time reflecting.
And, Alexander, do you havesomething that you would
consider your proudestaccomplishment during your
(04:10):
tenure as General Director [ofthe COC]?
Alexander Neef (04:12):
I don't know. I always think it's up to other
people to talk about that. Ifeel an enormous sense of
gratitude towards not only theCOC but also to Canada for
allowing me you know, 12 yearsis a long time and I was very
young when I came to the COC. Iwas given an incredible
opportunity to lead the companyto, you know, inherit, which I
(04:37):
maintain is one of the greatestopera houses in the world, to
start programming for thatbuilding, to really, in a sense,
properly activate the buildingbecause it was only opened in
2006, two years before Iarrived, and I think there was a
desire to create an ambitiousartistic project for the
building and for the company.
And to be able to embark on thattogether with the people in the
(04:59):
company but also the audience inToronto was really it was
thrilling. You know, sometimesover the last little while I've,
kind of, looked back because youdon't remember all the things
you actually did over 12 years.
And you're like, "Oh, we reallydid that that was actually a
great show!" Yeah, so, I mean,there's a sense of pride of
having been able to do that.
And, you know, again, a great,great sense of gratitude, too.
Julie McIsaac (05:23):
And if you were to sum up that in three words
in terms of the things thatyou're grateful for or have that
pride around what would thosethree words be?
Alexander Neef (05:32):
Well if you really want three words And on
a personal level is "theopportunity to grow" right? And,
on the other side, maybe"opportunity to build".
Julie McIsaac (05:46):
Lovely, yeah.
And, just before we shift gearsa little bit to Perryn, we are
curious about (05:49):
Perryn and Alexander, when did you first
meet? What was that firstencounter between the two of
you?
Alexander Neef (05:56):
It must have been in sometime around 2007
when I was very briefly involvedwith Gerard Mortier's
preparation for his tenure atNew York City Opera, which never
happened. But, at that time, Ihad started traveling, actually,
from Paris at the time I didcrazy things: I flew to Houston
(06:18):
and Chicago for, like, two daysto check out their young artists
programs and find talent that wecould use for City Opera. And
one of the first trips was toHouston and, you know, at that
point, Diane Zola, who Perrynremembers, was still running the
young artist program she's atThe Met now and I went to your
(06:42):
gala, your voice competition andgala, and that was my first
contact with Houston.
Perryn Leech (06:47):
That must be about two months after I started in
Houston, so that will absolutelybe right, I'm sure. Wow, a
better memory than I hadAlexander. I was thinking we
must have been on a dark streetcorner somewhere and had a beer
or something. But, yes, I'm sureyou're right.
Alexander Neef (07:02):
I remember the weather was very nice. Houston
always was my favoritedestination to go to from
Toronto in, like, January andFebruary.
Robyn Grant-Moran (07:12):
So, Perryn, this seems like a really great
time to ask about what drew youto the Canadian Opera Company?
Perryn Leech (07:18):
I love that question because I got asked
that by the board several timesduring the interview process and
I think it shows a very Canadianway of the way you look at your
company. COC is a major playeron the world stage, literally
any general director would beinterested in the opportunity to
come and work at the COC. Youhave a beautiful house, as
Alexander said, that opened in2006, and he's had a amazing
(07:40):
decade of producing the highestquality of artistic work. So
it's a fantastic organization.
It feels very humble to ask thatquestion because literally
everybody should have beenbeating your door down for this
amazing opportunity to come toCanada. But certainly, from a
personal point of view, I workedwith the Canadian Opera Company
many years ago (07:58):
they brought a show to the Edinburgh Festival,
Bluebeard's Castle/Erwartung,the very acclaimed Robert Lepage
show, so I knew the company fromthat I was Head of Lighting at
the time so I knew the companyfrom then. And then, obviously,
I got to know the company whenI'd come over here and I've been
a reasonably regular visitor toToronto as well, to see
(08:18):
performances and shows Houstonand Canadian Opera Company have
co-produced together quite alot. So, it's a very natural
progression fit and I'm thrilledthat the board thought I could
add value to the COC, which is acompany that is already
overflowing with huge talent andreally great critical acclaim.
Robyn Grant-Moran (08:40):
And what were your thoughts about the city
itself?
Perryn Leech (08:43):
Texas and anywhere is different let's be really
clear about that! Houston is theleast Texan city well, Houston
and Austin, to be fair. Houstonis culturally the most diverse
city in the U.S. statistically,and one of the things I've loved
about living in Houston is thatpeople think they have an
understanding and knowledge ofwhat Houston is and, until they
(09:06):
visit and actually spend sometime here, you have no idea.
When I flew in to see if I wasinterested in joining Houston
Grand Opera in late-2006, I knewexactly what Houston would look
like because I'd watched [1978TV series] Dallas with my mum,
Dallas was very close, it wasgoing to be lots of people
riding on horses, prairieeverywhere. And I came into this
(09:27):
beautiful little green oasis ina city. (It's very green Houston
because of, as I now know, therainfall and the temperatures.)
But it's this wonderful meltingpot of a city. You know, yes, I
love to discover the beatingheart of the city quite quickly,
and when I travel I rarely sitstill in a hotel; I walk the
(09:49):
streets, I smell the city andthat's a weird thing to say, but
you get a feel about culture ofa city from the food smell,
through just the generalambience of the city. So I love
nothing better than walkingthrough a city in the early
morning to go and have a walk,or go to the first meeting of
the day or whatever, and feelthe cultural hubbub starting and
(10:11):
just getting into a real feelfor the city. I look forward to
exploring Toronto much more but,you know, we visited as a family
for five days when we wereabout three summers, four
summers ago, and we had somefriends who had a farm just
outside Toronto, so we went andvisited them. It's an amazing
city and the number of peoplewho've invited themselves
(10:31):
already shows that people knowwhat Toronto is because
everyone's like, "Oh, I'lldefinitely come and visit you in
Toronto." "I've been in Houstonfor 14 years and you never once
invited yourself there. Okay"But it I think you'll have a lot
of visits. I'm looking forwardto that.
Robyn Grant-Moran (10:47):
Well, we're certainly excited to have you
come and explore and join us.
You started your career inbackstage and production. How do
you think that impacts how youwork as a General Director?
Perryn Leech (10:59):
I think everybody brings different skills to the
role of General Director. And,you know, Alexander is a
wonderful resource in terms ofhis artistic knowledge, his
breadth of repertoire knowledge,singers, etc, etc., and that has
absolutely raised the bar forCanadian Opera Company in terms
of the artists it can attractand, you know, the ensembles
it's put together. What I bringto it is: I kind of know how to
(11:23):
put opera on. I've worked upfrom the very bottom, I
understand completely that everysingle person has a role, and a
well-tuned engine has to haveall parts of that engine working
in perfect harmony because youcan only achieve greatness if
everything is If you have oneslightly thing that's out of
time, at that point, it justdoesn't work. What I am is
(11:46):
someone who has a very practicalknowledge, I think, a good way
with people, I think I enjoygetting an ensemble together of
people who create work that isgreater than the sum of its
parts. And that's what I'vetried to do in Houston at least
that's why I've beensuccessful in my career. So what
th (12:04):
nobody has all the skills to General Director the portfolio
of skills that you need is justwild, far too wide. So I bring
different skills than Alexander,I will rely on others to bring
some of the skills thatAlexander has. But any good
opera company is run by a teamof people. It's not yes, the
titular head is a finaldecision-maker but it's a team
of people. And one of the thingsI loved most about COC during
(12:26):
the interview process was everyperson I met had this kind of
cool attitude about they wantedto be there, they wanted to do
the best work possible, andthat's a really appealing thing
as a leader.
Robyn Grant-Moran (12:40):
That's been a running theme, too
is really a team sport.
Perryn Leech (12:45):
Yeah. I was in Wales so I went down from
London to Wales and I'd beentold that Welsh National Opera,
where I used to work, was a"family company". And it's
interesting because all three ofthe companies that I worked for
since, at some point, somebodyhas used that analogy. The great
things about nonprofits are thatpeople are drawn to work for
nonprofits because they have apassion for the art, they have a
(13:08):
passion for creatingperformance, and that passion
can always be harnessed if youhave the right way of doing it.
Robyn Grant-Moran (13:15):
Since you've been at Houston for 14 years
now, what's your proudestaccomplishments?
Perryn Leech (13:21):
Yeah, there's no question about the one that
certainly got the most press,which is the fact that we lost
our theater in 2017 to HurricaneHarvey, we were able to relocate
to the convention center and,through a period of time, it was
short-term relocation, amedium-term relief and,
eventually, it ended up beingour entire season. And to be
(13:44):
able to get the organizationthrough that period of time
without losing a single memberof staff, without losing a
single performance, and to keepour donors and our supporters
engaged with the organization,was an absolutely huge lift for
the company. And that was one ofthe places where Houston got
slightly lucky with the factthat I was there, I built
(14:05):
temporary venues of large scalebefore at the Edinburgh
Festival, and I knew how to dothat. And once they'd, sort of,
calm down, once they said,"Look, we're gonna build a venue
within the George R. BrownConvention Center," and
everybody, sort of, looks at mein that way that, "I know he's
my boss but can I tell himthat" (Well, I can't say any
words.) "But can I tell him howmad that is?" And then they sort
(14:28):
of go, "Okay, well, let's" andthen you sit down and go, "Okay,
I've done this before, let'sjust walk it through." And
everyone, sort of, slowly boughtinto the idea and, after the
thrill of doing that theexcitement, the adrenaline buzz
of doing that. If there's adeadline, you kept the deadline.
And we all have deadlines withinthe way we produce shows in, you
(14:50):
know, Alexander has a dressrehearsal night and that leads
to the first batch ofperformance. This was a, sort
of, a deadline on adrenalineacid because, you know, we were
four weeks out from opening theseason, and we had to build an
entire venue, and those arethings which take years and
years to plan normally, etc,etc. So we went for, on paper,
(15:14):
what looked like quite asimplistic way of doing it. But
one of the things that made meproud it was, at the end of that
and all the people who may havebeen a part of making that said,
"There's not much we would havedone differently." We got
virtually everything right Imean, there's no right and
wrong, per se. So, that wascertainly, professionally, one
of the real highlights andsomething that I'm
(15:37):
extraordinarily proud of thework of the company, and being
able to lead them through thatbecause I think it was a big
leap of faith for both thepeople who made the venues, but
also the board. The board had tohave complete and utter faith in
me this was not a situationwhere I was going back to the
board or asking permission foranything. I said, "This is what
we're doing. Hold my beer, I'llbe back in a month and we'll
(15:59):
have a venue, have a seasonwe'll have this." So that was
definitely that. I think interms of the organization, we
are in a much better fiscalfooting than we were nine years
ago, and we've been through nowan economic downturn in Houston
through the oil and gasindustry, Hurricane Harvey, and
a pandemic, and I still leavethe organization in a better
(16:20):
fiscal position than we werebefore. And we've also done the
right thing by our artists andour staff. So we've had ongoing
programs about equity,diversity, and inclusion; we've
substantially increased pay insome areas, which were, in my
opinion, gender-related payissues; we have honest, proper
(16:42):
conversations now about thevalue of everybody in an
organization rather than just afew. And, personally, I find
that to be really rewarding workbecause I think it's a very fair
organization to work for now, ina way that I don't think was
true a decade ago.
Robyn Grant-Moran (16:59):
That's an incredible list of
accomplishments. We're reallyexcited to have you. I know I've
said that before, and we're verysad to be saying bye to
Alexander as well.
Perryn Leech (17:08):
Yeah. You've had some brilliant years under
Alexander; I will bringsomething different. But great
organizations are built aroundstability and people who have
vision for an organization.
Robyn Grant-Moran (17:21):
Now, before I throw it back to Julie and
Alexander, I have one quickquestion: what operas had the
biggest impact on you?
Perryn Leech (17:30):
Yeah. So, actually the answer to that has to be The
Coronation of Poppaea because itwas my first opera. So I was at
drama school, I got to work onthis production at the Royal
Academy of Music of TheCoronation of Poppaea, first
opera I'd ever seen. All Iremember is how long it was and
how you had pre-scene changes todo during this entire opera. And
(17:53):
the challenge was to keep awakeand make sure you had done it.
But that was the opera that thengave me the opportunity to work
with Glyndebourne Festival andbrought me into the world of
opera. So, in terms of impact,unquestionably that is the
biggest impact as it brought meto opera. You can't do a Ring
Cycle without that having anenormous impact on you both
personally, professionally, andorganizationally those things
(18:16):
are things that bring anorganization together. And I
know you didn't ask for threeanswers, but you're getting
three answers anyway (18:22):
the piece that I love the most and really
resonates most with me is CruzarLa Cara De La Luna, which is the
world's first mariachi opera,which we've toured extensively
all over the world, includingthe Chtelet in Paris, and that
piece just sits in my heart in away that I was part of the
creation of it from day one. Andworld premieres are very special
like that (18:44):
you know that you've had a thumbprint on that. And
that piece will always remainone of the artistic highlights
of my life.
(19:19):
I think unquestionably digitalcontinues to grow and become a
more central part of the artform already we've heard of
companies commissioning new workpurely for digital production
I think that's sensible, I thinkit's part of it. But, as
Alexander said, the main eventthe thing that will draw you
(19:41):
back to opera is performances.
It's part of the same symbioticcircle, if you don't have the
live part then it will be verydifficult. You know, we've had
success with our digitalprogramming in Houston, but it's
already starting to drop offpeople. Some people just don't
like watching opera on a smallscreen and, you know, we have
amazing capabilities in our ownhomes now. When I was growing
(20:05):
up, we had one black and whiteTV in our house and then color
TV and it was, like, the size ofmy house because it had this
huge tube on the back. And nowwe're at 70-inch screens and
everyone's like, "Oh, you onlygot a 70-inch? Oh my god, you
need an 80". Everything's movedon from that and you've got
sound systems now that supportthat, but it's still not the
(20:26):
same because part of seeing alive performance and this
isn't just opera part ofseeing a live performance is
feeling the reactions of thepeople around you, feeling a
community with people who areexperiencing the piece of art at
the same time, and one of thereasons that the High School
Nights was one of my favoritenights of the opera that we we
(20:47):
do in Houston. Those kids don'tknow how they're supposed to
react at an opera. Theoutpouring of emotion at
different parts of the opera ispure and real because they don't
know that this is coming upit's the first time they've seen
it, they don't know that Rodolfois going to kiss Mim. And you
get this, sort of, intake ofbreath. And everyone you know,
(21:09):
majority of people, if you'vebeen to performing arts, you,
kind of, don't get surprisedvery often, but those kids do
and that's a completely normalreaction. So it's absolutely
thrilling to have that going onaround you and especially for
pieces that you maybe don't knowso well. So, we did a production
of Saul, which is a Handeloratorio that was staged
(21:33):
brilliantly by Barrie Koski, andyou could just see the entire
auditorium dazzled by thistheatrical brilliance, and also
had some controversial momentsin which one or two people chose
to vote with their feet andleave. And so it wasn't all
plain sailing but even thepeople who left, the vast
majority of them wrote saying,"I'm really thrilled you did
(21:54):
this. It's a fantastic thing,just not for me." Based on a
biblical story, we are in thedeep south, so, you know, we
were aware of it, we tried toeducate before people came but
it was too much for some peopleand, you know, that's their
right. I think Alexander wouldagree that you would much rather
someone said, "I loved five ofyour operas this season and
hated two," than went, "Yeah,this season was okay." Because,
(22:18):
at that point, you're not reallyengaging with your audience;
they're experiencing it on avery superficial level. If you
can't remember performances fromthree months ago, then it really
didn't make much of an impact onyou. Whereas, if you're still
talking about it years and yearslater, good or bad. So, the
curation of a season is verymuch about having that mixture,
(22:39):
and making sure that people comeon a journey with you,
understand what the story isthat you're trying to tell, but
they're not necessarily going tolike everything.
Julie McIsaac (22:50):
And, Alexander, I'd love for you to have the
opportunity to answer thatquestion around the
transformation that opera may beexperiencing right now. But,
also, what Perryn just mentionedabout risk: I'm curious, if you
could share with us, what is thegreatest risk that you feel that
you took while you were at theCOC?
Alexander Neef (23:07):
It's the risk, and sometimes the rigor, also,
of trying not to please. What Imean with that is that I think
you also need to program withconvictions and you need to
build a relationship with yourartists and with your audience,
where there's a dialogue thatworks between all of us. Of
course, you want to program whatpeople like but you can't only
(23:31):
program what they want to see,because it would mean you would
only program things that theyalready know, right? And I think
that the proudest moments forall of us are the ones where you
do something and you don'treally know where you're going
and what the result is going tobe. You get hate mail for
everything you do, that's fine,but then you get, you know,
(23:54):
letters from people that say,"Wow, we had no clue that this
would be good," and, "Please domore of this." And that's, I
think, how you start buildingsomething with your audience and
with the artists, you know. Ialways jokingly said, when we
presented Dmitri Tcherniakov'sproduction of Don Giovanni in
Toronto, I jokingly said, "Well,the fact if I'm going to be out
(24:17):
of a job or not after we do thatshow will tell me a lot about my
audience." The interesting thingabout that show for us was that,
yes, of course, we got quite abit of hate mail but we also
actually, I think my very firstshow at the COC, we got a big
number of letters from people[who] said, "This was great. Do
more of this." because they knewthere would be hate mail and
(24:38):
they knew that they also neededto get the positive voice heard.
And that was really interesting.
And what I've always liked aboutthe COC audience is that they
are curious and they don't judgeit before they see it and I
think that's a huge quality foran audience.
Perryn Leech (24:57):
Hate mail in Canada sounds like it might be
quite muted compared to hatemail in Texas.
Alexander Neef (25:01):
And hate mail, of course, is, I admit, a bit of
a harsh word in the age of justtyping something in your
computer and sending it offwithout reading it again
that's easy. And then people doit more when they're angry; they
don't do it when they're happy.
Perryn Leech (25:18):
No, I think that's the thing that's very, very
true and it is interesting. Sowe did Dead Man Walking in
Houston, which is, you know, anopera about the death penalty.
And again, doing that in Texas,which is a state that still has
the death penalty, theconversations it opens up,
allowing the community to have apiece of art as a starting point
(25:39):
for a debate about the deathpenalty, the rights and wrongs
of the death penalty, whether itstill has a place in modern
society, etc, etc. wereabsolutely fascinating. And, of
course, very, very hotconversations at various points
because, you know, it's not anarea that most people are
ambivalent about you have avery strong opinion: you're
(26:00):
either for it or you're againstit. And, you know, I think one
of the challenges we have as asociety now is that people are
becoming more and morepolarized; they don't want to
hear somebody else's view, theywant to tell you why their view
is right. And one of thechallenges we definitely face as
a society is how do we haveconversations in which you are
(26:22):
actually talking about theissue, rather than just
positioning yourself to haveyour heart part heard, and then
not listen to the other part.
Alexander Neef (26:30):
And it's becoming more and more of a
worldwide issue. I mean, itmight be a little bit more
pronounced at the moment in yourcurrent home country, Perryn,
but, you know, I think theability to listen to each other
and the ability to sometimesjust agree in a civil way that
you disagree with each other, Ithink that's the original idea
or theatre (26:50):
together the citizens in a space that is
dedicated to performance, thatallows them to share an
experience go through the samething, collectively and
individually and then, in a way,you know, put issues of society
on stage and allow people byremoving it from the daily lives
and turning it into art, puttingit on a stage to reflect on
(27:13):
their own, you know, being theirown reality, their own issues.
And then for them to not allreach the same conclusion but
they still have shared thatmoment, and then what you said
is very profound, Perryn yearsafter that, still talk about it,
and maybe still not agree butthat culture of exchange and
(27:37):
debate, I think that theater wasinvented to foster that. And if
we can help mend some of thewounds of society currently,
that way I think we've done alot by producing meaningful art
(27:58):
that's more than justentertaining. And, of course, it
should be entertaining but itshouldn't only be entertainment.
Perryn Leech (28:06):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Julie McIsaac (28:09):
Wonderful. And it's a great reminder that as we
heal from COVID, or as we moveforward and look at what opera's
going to look like in the next10 years, there's also this
question that you've raisedabout the increasing
polarization and what role do wehave to play amongst citizens
and as a point of gathering anda place where we can exchange
respectfully around ideas anddisagree together as well and
what role opera has to play inthat. Lots to come in the next
(28:32):
5-10 years. I think it might betime for our lightning round.
Robyn.
Robyn Grant-Moran (28:37):
Okay, question one
meal.
Alexander Neef (28:42):
Oh, usually no time to eat before the show!
Perryn Leech (28:44):
That is exactly what I thought. Whatever is put
in front of me, I'll wolf itdown.
Julie McIsaac (28:53):
First opera?
Alexander Neef (28:54):
Fidelio like, in the theatre,
Perryn Leech (28:58):
Poppaea backstage; Carmen, the first ticket I
bought.
Robyn Grant-Moran (29:03):
Do you guys have pets?
Perryn Leech (29:05):
I have George.
Alexander Neef (29:06):
Harry the poodle.
Julie McIsaac (29:08):
What type of dog is George?
Perryn Leech (29:11):
He's very much an eclectic mix. So he's some
Labrador, some terrier, there'ssome poodle in there, we think.
I'll see if I can capture at theend of this, when we're done
with the questions, I'll see ifI can get you a picture of him.
Yeah.
Julie McIsaac (29:29):
We'd love to meet him! And what's the thing that
makes you smile when you firstwalk into the opera house?
Alexander Neef (29:36):
Well, I mean usually [I] come in through the
stage door, right? So, the firstthing you see is the security
agents the people you smileat, you know, because they keep
us safe.
Perryn Leech (29:48):
I'm not even in the opera house. I'm outside it
and I hear the sound of it. Youhear musicians warming up,
singers warming up. There's nosound like You walk towards the
building and you know Itquickens your heartbeat because
you know that you're about tocreate something or be part of
the creation.
Robyn Grant-Moran (30:06):
What's the last opera you saw live?
Alexander Neef (30:12):
As a performance was actually Ambur Braid as
Salome in Frankfurt on the 1stof March of last year.
Perryn Leech (30:25):
Yeah, I guess mine would be the last performance of
Aida at Houston Grand Opera inFebruary of last year.
Julie McIsaac (30:32):
What's your favorite HGO-COC co-production?
Alexander Neef (30:35):
Oh, we did a couple of really good ones. We
did [A] Midsummer Night's Dream,we did Peter Grimes, which
Perryn Leech (30:42):
Both of which were fantastic.
Alexander Neef (30:45):
Peter Grimes is one of my personal all-time
favorites great, great show.
Well, most recently Turandot. Ialso liked our [La] Traviata. We
did we did a lot together.
Yeah. And the [La] Bohme is Ireally like the Bohme, it's
very immediate. We haven'tactually done a clunker, which
is, again, that's always nice aswell!
Robyn Grant-Moran (31:08):
What's your favourite sports team?
Perryn Leech (31:10):
Okay, this is where I can get myself into a
lot of trouble, so I'm gonnastick with the easy answer,
which is Arsenal Football Club,which is my British football
club not gonna call it"soccer"; it's football because
it's played with a foot and aball, not throwing a ball, which
is called football as well. Ilove my Texan sports teams but
(31:32):
I'm not gonna get myself intotrouble by picking those over
the Blue Jays. So, ArsenalFootball Club is my answer to
that.
Alexander Neef (31:40):
So, sports and I is not necessarily a love
affair. But I've been to greatgames over time you know, the
Blue Jays and other things inToronto. I remember very vividly
a [St. Louis] Cardinals game inSt. Louis a long time ago of all
places. My first time in St.
Louis and I was told you have togo to Cardinals game, so we went
(32:00):
to a Cardinals game. What I likeabout it is the energy, which
is, you know, not dissimilar tothe energy of a theatrical
performance, somehow magnifiedby the sheer number of people.
Julie McIsaac (32:19):
And right now what would be your go to album
or recording?
Perryn Leech (32:22):
Interesting.
Actually, you know, I've beenlistening to a lot less music
through lockdown because I'm onthe phone the whole time. I tend
to be listening to podcasts andthings outside of that. So
actually, bizarrely, I haven'tbeen listening to as much music,
I've actually just startedlistening to more of the plans
that COC have got to the next2-3 years of repertoire just to,
you know, remind myself and getmyself deeper into some of that
(32:44):
repertoire. But running acompany in COVID times, you
spend an awful lot of time notdoing that. And because I am a
very keen sports person, my timeoutside of that is tends to be
watching sporting events andlistening to podcasts rather
than music.
Alexander Neef (33:04):
Well, maybe just sort of a more general remark
mean, I've always been a big,great listener of music first
on the radio when I was verylittle, and later you started
that time it was musiccassettes, like tapes, and then
later came to CD, and then camestreaming. And, you know,
(33:24):
there's been a huge shiftbecause when you actually needed
to buy the stuff, there wasalways this, like, soul
searching, how to invest yourmoney, like, which was the album
that you could settle on whenyou would, kind of, go to the
record store and listen andcompare. What I like about the
streaming stuff is that I listento much more and different
music. In a way it's it's becomemore casual but it's also
(33:50):
allowed me to discover a lot ofthings by the sheer, you know,
fact that, kind of, it's the"subscription effect" in many
ways, like because you're freeto wander and I love that and I
don't have nearly enough time tolisten to as much music as I
would like to. And I rarelylisten to opera because if I
don't have to study a piecewhich is one one thing of
(34:12):
course I prefer it live butthere's other things: I like to
listen to chamber music, a lotof piano solo, and jazz, too,
and ideally with headphones. Ialso don't like to listen to
music while doing somethingelse: when I listen I want to
listen. That didn't answer thequestion about the album, really
Robyn Grant-Moran (34:36):
What's your favorite pop artist?
Perryn Leech (34:37):
Oh, favorite, favorite pop artist? You go back
to The Clash for me. Very, veryinstrumental in growing [up]. I
grew up in a wonderful time inBritish music history: the en
of punk going into new wave. Yeh, I go back that far, I'm af
Alexander Neef (34:56):
Well, I mean just the classics, right? I
mean, I had a phase when I wasactually still in Toronto, when
I was driving my older daughterto school some mornings, and we
would make this habit oflistening to only one album all
the time it was A Night at theOpera, [by] Queen.
Perryn Leech (35:18):
It's good one to listen to!
Alexander Neef (35:19):
Amazing! The confirmation is you listen to
it, like, you know, 100 timesand you still are not done
because there's still thingsthat you discover. And those are
the experiences that I thinkthat's why we're in this
business.
Perryn Leech (35:33):
They were a group and an artist that transcended
what was there. My favorite Mntserrat Caball quote [which] w
s she was asked, you know, "ho is the greatest thing you've
ever sung with?" and she jut turned around and said,
That's easy (35:44):
Freddie Mercur ." And for her to say that
fter all the amazing artiststhat she worked with throug
her career, she was, like, "Hads down, easy: he could do a
ything. If he wanted to sinopera, he could've done th
t! Whatever!" He is the greate
Julie McIsaac (36:25):
Right, we're gonna jump to the last question
on the list (36:27):
three words to describe opera.
Perryn Leech (36:30):
Thrilling, powerful. I had to think of a
third one. Alexander can do thethird one.
Al (36:39):
beauty, truth, and maybe it doesn't really sound so good in
English depth.
Julie McIsaac (36:48):
Perryn, you can keep thinking about it and when
you join in March...
Perryn Leech (36:50):
Yeah!
Julie McIsaac (36:50):
you can let us know. Thank you so much for
spending this time with us.
Wishing you both so much luck inthe rest of your day, the rest
of your evening, and in themonths ahead.
Perryn Leech (37:01):
Bless you.
Alexander Neef (37:01):
Thank you, guys.
It was a pleasure.
Julie McIsaac (37:11):
I'm coming out of that conversation really
excited. Like, we know thatthere's a lot of challenges that
we're dealing with being stillin this COVID era but I was
really excited listening toPerryn speak and listening to
Alexander reflect on his time.
Robyn Grant-Moran (37:25):
But, yeah, it feels like we're at this
precipice within the pandemic,where it's been going on long
enough that we recognize thatdigital media is really
important in a way that itwasn't before. And vaccines are
rolling out. So who knows whatthat means in terms of when live
(37:45):
theatre will begin again but itdoes provide some sense of
optimism for live theatrebeginning again. And where
Alexander has with the workhe's done and then Perryn
picking up the torch and runningwith it, however he's going to
do that. It's just reallyexciting. It's all these things
(38:07):
happening at once.
Julie McIsaac (38:08):
Mm hmm. So Alexander's moving away from the
company but having left it in areally good position.
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:13):
Yeah!
Julie McIsaac (38:13):
In a good way and he's talking that analogy of
the horse, sort of
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:17):
Yeah!
Julie McIsaac (38:18):
The horse just wanting to get out there on the
racetrack and just wanting torace. You know, I certainly feel
that energy and myself as welland speaking with them today, I
do. It's a good reminder thatthere's a lot to look forward
to.
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:29):
Yeah, even though our present is really
challenging and difficult, thereis that light at the end of the
tunnel; there's something tolook forward to.
Julie McIsaac (38:37):
Mm hmm. And that the learnings that we're taking
away from this time like thedigital technology that you
mentioned we'll carry thatwith us and we'll take it
forward. But we know it's nevergoing to replace that live
gathering. And we're so excitedfor that eventual future.
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:52):
I have to laugh. One thing Perryn said
about that TV when he was a boywas black and white and then
moving into colour TV and myfirst TV was about the size of
my laptop screen and black andwhite until I was, like, six or
seven I think we got a colourTV then and it was still about
(39:15):
the size of my laptop screen,and it was very exciting.
Julie McIsaac (39:19):
Oh, yeah!
Robyn Grant-Moran (39:20):
And that natural flow of technology the
progression of technology thatwe need to embrace it but, it's
true, it will never replacebeing in a live theatre, with
live performers, with 1,000people all around you, feeling
(39:42):
that excitement, waiting forthat production to begin,
hearing the orchestra tuning up.
Julie McIsaac (39:49):
The TV that we had, Robyn, it's like you got
two channels fairly reliably,and then there was a third that
you could sort of get if youmove the bunny ears into the
right position, but it wasalways a bit grainy and you
couldn't quite see, so, that'ssort of how I feel right now:
there's, like, this thirdchannel that's emerging.
Robyn Grant-Moran (40:03):
Opera's thrilling and the future
don't know what it's going tolook like but it's going to be
thrilling because it's going tobe a progression from now.
Julie McIsaac (40:13):
Powerful, thrilling, truth, beauty here
we come!We can't wait to hear more from
Perryn as this new era begins atthe COC, and we'd love to hear
from you as well!
Robyn Grant-Moran (40:34):
Yeah. Are you optimistic about the return of
opera and theatre? Do you thinkit can happen anytime soon? Let
us know! We want to know whatyou think and feel.
Julie McIsaac (40:44):
Feel free to send us your questions, your
comments, your ideas by emailingaudiences@coc.ca or tagging us
on social media @CanadianOpera.
Robyn Grant-Moran (40:55):
See you next time
Julie McIsaac (40:56):
when we'll be having a great chat with Rena
Roussin about how opera canserve as a sphere for activism.
Robyn Grant-Moran (41:04):
Be the first to find out about free events
and concerts from the COC bysigning up for our monthly
eOpera newsletter atcoc.ca/eOpera.
Julie McIsaac (41:16):
Thank you to all of our supporters for making Key
Change possible. This week wewant to especially thank every
COC member, subscriber, anddonor for coming on this journey
with us as we explore new waysto share opera's unique power.
Robyn Grant-Moran (41:30):
So to make sure you don't miss an episode,
subscribe to Key Change whereveryou get your podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (41:37):
Key Change is produced by the Canadian Opera
Company and hosted by RobynGrant-Moran and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (41:44):
To learn more about today's guests and see the
show notes, please visit ourwebsite at coc.ca/KeyChange.
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