February 2, 2021 • 54 mins
Explore how opera – past and present – serves as a space for activism. Join co-hosts Robyn Grant-Moran and Julie McIsaac as they speak with musicologist Rena Roussin, who studies activism and intersectional identity in art music. Find out how Mozart and Beethoven were subversive for their time and how opera, now more than ever, is a driving force for change.
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Julie McIsaac (00:00):
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to Key Change (00:00):
A COC Podcast, where we explore
everything about opera from afresh perspective.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:23):
Hi there and welcome to episode seven. Today
we're going to be talking aboutopera and activism. To help us
explore this more in depth,we're going to talk to an expert
in the field, musicologist andmy friend Rena Roussin. She's
currently pursuing a doctorateat the University of Toronto.
Her research examines activismin both opera and oratorio in
(00:44):
the Age of Enlightenment, aswell as art music performance in
Canada, in the age of truth andreconciliation. She's also a
member of the COC Circle ofArtists.
Julie McIsaac (00:55):
Let's hear from Rena.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:06):
Hi, Rena.
Thank you for joining us today.
Rena Roussin (01:09):
Hi, Julie. Hi, Robyn. Thank you so much for
having me!
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:13):
We're really excited to talk to you about all
your experience with theacademic side of opera and how
it can be applied practically.
So, I'm wondering, was there aparticularly impactful moment
that informed your journeytowards music and theatre?
Rena Roussin (01:31):
Oh, my gosh. I can't really hone in on one
moment. I can't remember a timewhen I didn't love music and
theatre and how they allow us totell stories. And I started
singing, like, before I startedspeaking I was mimicking songs
on the radio. But classicalmusic came later for me: I was
(01:55):
about 16 or 17 before I reallystarted getting into that
particular piece. And Iremember: I was actually on a
high school theatre trip inVictoria [BC] and I was cutting
through the VictoriaConservatory of Music to get to
the Metro Studio [Theatre] nextdoor for an improv tournament,
(02:17):
and I was just, kind of, runningthrough the practice rooms I
was running late and I musthave heard opera before then but
it was my first time everhearing somebody sing it live.
So here I am, running throughthis hallway, running late for a
show and I just stopped in mytracks. It was just like, "What
is that?" I just remember, like,my legs felt like they were
(02:39):
going to give out and justthinking, "What is that? I want
to do that. That's so cool!"
Robyn Grant-Moran (02:44):
I have a similar memory when I was in
first year [of] universitystudying saxophone when I was 18
and hearing the voice studioright next to the sax studio,
and there's just nothing likehearing it that close it's
profound!
Julie McIsaac (03:01):
I was just gonna say
Marriage of] Figaro at theVictoria Conservatory of Music,
so that was a very special placefor me, too, in my journey
towards opera!
Robyn Grant-Moran (03:10):
So, I'm wondering, how and when did you
merge your artistic and academicinterests? What brought those
things together?
Rena Roussin (03:18):
Funnily enough, when I started college, I was
actually a political sciencemajor and had no plans on
studying music but I just was sointerested by it and so in love
with it that I was just like,"Well, I'll do a minor in music.
Music's a wonderful thing, everyculture has its own variation of
(03:39):
it, so one day when I'm adiplomat, this will be useful!"
And then I went into my firstmusic history class as a music
minor and the instructor Dr.
Susan Lewis at UVic [Universityof Victoria], back in Victoria
explained what musicology was.
and I was just like, "Okay, ifwe get multiple lifetimes, this
is it (04:03):
this is what I'm doing." And clearly somewhere in the
last 10 years I sped up thattimeline but I think, for me
this is kind of a roundabout wayof answering but I was
premature by three months as ababy. So my vocal cords grew
around intubation, so I'vealways been a singer but I've
always had a very differenttimbre a timbre that doesn't
(04:28):
really fit classical singingbecause of the nature of my
vocal cords. So literally andfiguratively, in some ways,
because I came so late toclassical music and because
it's tricky for me to singclassically I had a voice that
didn't really fit. I knew Iwanted to be part of this
(04:49):
academic musical community but Iwas a first-generation student,
I didn't grow up listening toclassical music, I had this
voice people didn't really knowwhat to do with, and it made me
feel really alone and left outwhen I was first starting my
journey in academia. But alongthe way, I had really wonderful
(05:13):
teachers and mentors and friendswho were, like, "Of course you
belong here." Like, "Of courseyou have something to give; you
should be a part of thiscommunity." So I think when I
really started looking at operaand art music, I really started
thinking, "Oh, there are othergroups of people who have really
been left out of this space andour narratives about it for ways
(05:37):
that are much more toxic andmuch less okay than the reasons
why I didn't necessarily feellike part of it. Arguing for the
presence of other people whohave been left out or excluded
from our spaces really just feltlike a natural step to me; it
felt like what I should be doingbecause so many people tried to
(06:00):
make me feel welcome, until aplace that felt really foreign
to me became a place where Ireally feel at home.
Robyn Grant-Moran (06:07):
And that really aligns nicely when you
talk about art music asactivism.
Rena Roussin (06:14):
I think when we talk about activism we tend, for
understandable reasons, to thinkabout the really obvious
components of activism whetherthat's marching at protests or
writing our representatives. Sowhen I talk about activism, I'm
asking a word to do reallypowerful work and that I think
(06:36):
of activism as being manydifferent things: as being
representation and who getsincluded or excluded from our
spaces, and whose stories andwhose narratives matter, who
gets to be seen in our society,who has power. And when we think
of activism that way, I thinkthe arts absolutely have an
(06:57):
immense role to play in it. AndI think opera absolutely has a
deeply important role to play inthat, in part because there are
some I don't want to say toxictoxic, I think, is too strong
a word but some reallydamaging aspects of opera's
history that we need to addressand find ways to move forward
(07:20):
from. The impulse of activismisn't new like, the term
activism is something thatevolved in the 1960s. So
sometimes people look at mequite strangely when I'm talking
about this art form from the18th century as, "Yeah. of
course it's activist," becausethat term didn't exist yet. But
(07:40):
when I look at the history ofopera, I look at a history of
composers and librettists andperformers who understood that
there were issues of their dayin the world that weren't being
addressed, and they were usingmusic as a way to address that,
to try to push forward, to tryto create, in whatever way, was
(08:04):
appropriate or understandable intheir time, a slightly better
world.
Julie McIsaac (08:08):
Yeah. Well, Rena, with that, like, when we think
back to the composers of old, ofwell known operas, we don't
necessarily think of thosepeople as subversive or
progressive. But there certainlyare plenty of examples. Could
you share with us around that?
Rena Roussin (08:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Robyn and I are friends weeven hang out sometimes and
one of our running gags almostis trying to find any opera in
the operatic canon that doesn'thave something that was
subversive for its time
Julie McIsaac (08:42):
at the time, right!
Rena Roussin (08:43):
Yeah. And I think that's an important thing to
hold onto like, of course,when we look at the history of
the operatic canon, by anyodern 21st century, if you go
ack to a work from 1780 or erlier, of course it's going to h
ve issues from our knowedge. But when we try to enga
e with the work on its own termin For example, The Marr
(09:05):
age of Figaro is one of my favoites, so it's never far from
my mind. And when you think abouthis opera being written in a
age when there was a reallstrict social class hierar
hy and order and there's the aritocrats and there's their se
vants and, at the same time, ths age when women were property,
(09:27):
suddenly you get this opera byLorenzo] Da Ponte and [Wolf
ang Amadeus] Mozart, thoughtsbout like, women are runn
ng this show; they're diving the entire plo
forwards and, really significntly,. they're singing togeth
r and they're making a plan abut how to blur these social di
(09:51):
ensions. If we could even thinabout "Sull'aria [... che soav
zeffiretto]" as an example becase, of course, Mozart's not re
ponsible for the text of the opra Da Ponte wrote that but
e can see Mozart also playng into this blurring of socia
divisions and of gendered hierachies, and that you have
(10:13):
these two women who are overy different social classe
, who are suddenly singing togther in the exact same style.
You have the countess [Cuntess Almaviva] and he
servant [Susanna] making musicogether in imitated lines
Julie McIsaac (11:13):
Rena, I find myself thinking about the
staging of that scene, too, andthe physical choices that you
make in the sense of who isstanding and who is sitting and,
physically, are they on equalfooting or are you choosing to
show them in a certain way?
Because, like you said, theseare two women coming together to
try to alter the outcome of asituation and their fate.
Rena Roussin (11:32):
Yeah, well, and I think we forget, from our 21st
century vantage points, like,music absolutely had stylistic
patterns based on social classesin the 18th century. So when
Susanna is singing in the samestyle as the Countess, that
absolutely would have had sonicsignificance to that audience;
(11:52):
they would have heard, "Oh,she's doing something
different." Like, she's notsinging the way she's supposed
to and, to me, like, that'sabsolutely subversive; that's
absolutely activist.
Robyn Grant-Moran (12:04):
And, if I could just jump in for a moment
many of our listeners doprobably know this but the
plays that Figaro was based on,the [Pierre] Beaumarchais plays,
were banned. Even the choice tomake this opera happen was
subversive.
Rena Roussin (12:20):
If you want to talk about how opera is
activist, look at the history ofoperatic censorship: 90 per cent
of the opera that we go listento was composed usually 100
years ago or more, so I think weforget opera was always being
written and commenting on thepolitical issues of its days, of
(12:41):
its timeframe. And when we seenew opera today, as well, we
hear that same commentary, sothere's always been this history
of opera engaging with theissues of its day. And some
semblance of censorship of, "No,you can't talk about that!" And
composers fighting sneaky waysto go like, "Oh, really! Want to
(13:02):
bet?" But, also I know thisepisode will air later but
today is Inauguration Day in theUnited States, so I imagine all
three of us just got to watchPresident [Joe] Biden and Vice
President [Kamala] Harris beingsworn in a few hours ago and,
really, the opera in my mindtoday in part because of that
(13:24):
is Fidelio, [Ludwig Van]Beethoven's opera about
political liberation, where awoman, Leonore, is at the center
role as this heroic conquerorwho overthrows political
tyranny.
Julie McIsaac (14:00):
Is there anything in particular, Rena, around
Fidelio that stands out to you?
Rena Roussin (14:04):
For me, the Prisoners' Chorus [O welche
Lust"O what a joy"] is thisreally huge piece of the opera
that's had this ongoingtrajectory of activism both in
its original conception, in itsstagings, because it's this huge
statement about politicalliberation and also about
(14:25):
imprisonment and both of thoseimpulses at once. So you think
about what that piece would havemeant in the age of the French
Revolution, when there'spolitical prisoners imprisoned
for fighting for this moment ofliberation, and then the ways
modern day opera companies,contemporary opera companies are
(14:46):
engaging with this story and ourongoing stories about political
turmoil or about politicaloppression. I know Manitoba
Opera invited refugees in 2014to come stand on stage during
the Prisoners' Chorus, whilethey're singing about this
profound moment of overthrowingtyranny and political freedom.
(15:10):
Heartbeat Opera in New York Cityhad a really beautiful
initiative of welcoming Theyhad live-streamed footage from
six different prison choirs, soactual prisoners were singing
this piece with trained operasingers in a production that was
about disproportionate blackincarceration, where they've
(15:33):
updated the plot to be Leah,instead of Leonore, is trying to
free her black activist husbandor partner. She's trying to free
him from being wrongfullyincarcerated for activism within
the Black Lives Matter movement.
So, taking this old story andfinding a way to bring it into
the current political moment,into Black Lives Matter or,
(15:56):
even for us today, sitting here,what would the Prisoners' Chorus
mean on the day Joe Biden andKamala Harris were inaugurated;
what does it mean on a day whenMadam Vice President is no
longer a fictional character?
It's looking at what weoverthrew today, centuries long
(16:18):
history that says women can'thold highest office. It's the
story that we get to tellinganew in all these different
political ages, that alwayscomes back to this goal of "What
does it mean to be free? How dowe further the cause of
freedom?"
Julie McIsaac (17:05):
With, you know, you mentioned Figaro, and you
mentioned Fidelio, and then ifwe start moving through history
and coming closer to our presentday, what are your thoughts on
how opera has continued to serveas a vessel for social
commentary?
Rena Roussin (17:17):
You have this simultaneous challenge and
opportunity of interacting withthese works that are almost
historic documents of theirtime, but which can also be
given new life into speaking toevery period of time they
interact with. So, Fidelio, forexample: what did Fidelio mean
(17:41):
10 years after the FrenchRevolution? What did Fidelio
mean during the Second WorldWar? What does Fidelio mean
today, on the day of Biden andHarris's inauguration? There's
always been this trajectory ofnew meanings found in old works,
(18:03):
and the fact that so many ofthese themes can speak to
different experiences indifferent time periods. When
Fidelio premiered, it wasentirely appropriate for a group
of men to be writing a storyabout a woman sneaking into the
heroic archetype, which I thinkis also one of the reasons I
(18:23):
love that work so much that'sfinally for once, instead of
seeing a woman die at the end ofan opera or otherwise be
punished for existing foronce, you get to see a woman
being the heroic conqueror;she's the one held up at the end
of the stage while everyone'ssinging about her achievements.
(18:44):
And I think that's a workhistory has needed,
unfortunately, until I wouldsay, the late 20th century, at
the start of the 21st century.
Unfortunately, in some ways,even now opera has been
something composed by Europeanmen. There's some beautiful work
by those men and I don't want tothrow that all out, but I think
(19:07):
one of the beautiful thingswe've really seen happening in
opera more and more is that moreand more communities are coming
into opera, and writing it, andtelling their own stories. So,
for example, it was completelyappropriate in an age when women
were property for [Jean-Nicolas]Bouilly and [Joseph]
Sonnleithner and Beethoven tocreate an opera about women and
(19:29):
about their empowerment. But inthe 21st century, no, it's time
for women to write operas aboutthat story; it's time for
indigenous people and blackpeople to tell us stories about
their community through thesounds and the materials and the
narratives that they choose toshare with us.
Robyn Grant-Moran (19:54):
I'm really curious to go back a little bit
to the idea of dealing with thisolder work, with the canon,
where we are dealing with a lotof There are progressive ideas
but there's so much racism,there's so much misogyny, and
that was unfortunately part ofthe existence in the world in
(20:16):
which it was created. And nowyou said we shouldn't just throw
it all out, but do you haveideas on more ways to handle
that in the 21st century? [Waysto] Handle those issues?
Rena Roussin (20:31):
Yeah, they're so complicated. They're so
complicated.
Robyn Grant-Moran (20:36):
Solve opera right now! You have 20 minutes
go!
Rena Roussin (20:44):
I think, so often when I tell people that I study
opera as activism, I seecommunities and people who feel
like who love opera as I doand as much as I do who feel
like I'm wanting tofundamentally change opera or
take something away from them,or foundationally get rid of or
(21:08):
alter this piece of art thatthey really love, and I think
that's a really intensemisunderstanding of what the
goal of opera as activism is (21:16):
I don't want to take anything away
from anyone; I want to bring, ifanything, more opera in. I want
us all to have more of this artform that we love. I want to be
able to go see Carmen one night,and then see Ian Cusson's new
(21:39):
opera, and then go see anadaptation of Toni Morrison's
Blue the next night. I want theart form to get to expand but
also, at the end of the day, I'ma historian and I feel like if
we don't learn from our historyif we don't remember it and
(22:02):
think about it and understandwhere we went wrong we're
doomed to keep making thosemistakes. And I actually think
opera is a really beautiful,valuable tool, in part as a
historical document because itreminds us that we live in a
world that has been misogynist,that has been deeply racist,
that has caused very, very, veryreal harm to numerous
(22:27):
communities. I think if we'regoing to lean into those issues,
we shouldn't ignore them; weshould be acknowledging that
that's part of the human storya heartbreaking part but one we
need to acknowledge but,therefore, one we also need to
(22:47):
think about if we're going tostage it, how do we stage it
responsibly. I'm 125 per centhere for a fully historic
staging of Le nozze di Figaro[English: The Marriage of
Figaro], I'm here for thepowdered wigs and stagings that
lean into the hierarchiesbecause we need to remember that
those existed. I've also 125 percent here for a staging that
(23:10):
completely reimagines thatpiece. I remember once one of my
students was like, "Has anyoneever set Figaro in the Clinton
White House?" And I was like,"Oh, my god! We have to do
this!"
Julie McIsaac (23:27):
Wow!
Rena Roussin (23:28):
Yeah. So, yeah, I feel like there's a place to
lean into how these stories havehistorically been harmful and
just pretending it was neverthere getting rid of it, never
staging it again I think, runsthe risk of ignoring very real
realities of our history. Butmaybe the challenge of solving
(23:51):
opera, I think, is finding waysto minimize the harm in its
history whether that'sOrientalism or its really
horrific history of sexuallyviolent scenes finding ways to
minimize the harm of thatwithout ignoring realities of
that, while also leaning intomoments of subversion and beauty
(24:16):
and this ongoing history oftrying to answer these huge
questions of "What does it meanto be alive in the world? What
does it mean to love? What doesit mean to be free?"
Robyn Grant-Moran (24:32):
I think this is a really good time to talk
about your academic workspecifically. Like, the work
you're doing with unsettling artmusic, the project you're
working on.
Rena Roussin (24:43):
You mean the project *we're* working on?
Robyn Grant-Moran (24:45):
Yes, sorry! I always because it's your baby
but I have been involved in thatand I am so grateful and
privileged to have thatopportunity. Can you tell the
audience more about that?
Rena Roussin (24:59):
So, we have this group project that we've been
working on Robyn's right inthat it is my baby: I
conceptualized and designed theoriginal impetus for the project
but it's really a project thatbelongs to Robyn, to Rebecca
Cuddy, to Nicole Lavalee, toMarion Newman, to Olivia Shortt
(25:21):
and also a little bit to me. Butin the end, we all created
Robyn Grant-Moran (25:25):
We'll change the diapers on occasion!
Rena Roussin (25:29):
At the end of the day, it's something we all are
creating and writing together.
When I first assigned it, Ithought, "Oh, this will be a
good journal article one day"I still hope it will be, but
what we're ultimately doingtogether is I've done
interviews with these fiveIndigenous performers, these
five Indigenous women and it'simportant to me like, this is
(25:53):
a project about empowering andhearing and listening to the
voices of Indigenous women. Butreally, what the project is
trying to do is engage with thefour questions that Senator
Murray Sinclair once stated,"all indigenous people must ask
in order to know who they are."
(26:16):
"Where do I come from?" "Wheream I going?" "What is my
purpose?" "Who am I?" And, inthe project, we're really trying
to take those questions andapply them to art music. So,
from Indigenous perspectives,"Where does art music come from?
What has it already done? Inwhat ways have its histories and
(26:38):
practices excluded ormarginalized Indigenous people?
In the 21st century, who doesart music even belong to? Who is
it for? Where is it going? Whatis it? What's its purpose? What
community is can it serve?" So,together, we're asking these
questions and it's partlyethnography, it's partly a
(27:01):
history lesson about where thegenre has been, it's partly a
guide on the effort to includeIndigenous people in art music,
and how we can do thatrespectfully, in ways that allow
both the historic Europeansettler art music community and
the Indigenous community that isinvolved in art music to all
(27:25):
move forwards together in a goodway. But it's just grown into
this huge thing that I think,to all of us, it's become bigger
than the journal article Iwanted it to be. I think it's,
hopefully, going to grow into aseries of performances, into a
book, into maybe somethingreally tangible that we can give
(27:47):
to artistic companies as a giftof "Here's this knowledge that
we've all created together. Takeit! Move it forward it's yours
now!" And, for me, the mostimportant thing with this
project is that it's leveragingthe privilege I have as an
academic and as someone who hassome power as a graduate student
(28:10):
maybe not that much power butsome in an academic setting
and it's giving it back toIndigenous communities, and
finding ways to point out thatIndigenous people and Indigenous
performers are experts in whatthey do; they're the voices we
need to be listening to inunderstanding what it's going to
(28:34):
take to move our narratives ofart music and especially art
music that's created in Canadaforward into better narratives
that bring us together and allowus to tell new stories together.
Robyn Grant-Moran (28:50):
One thing I'm really curious about is the
distinction that you drawbetween "anti-colonial" and
"decolonizing" in the work,because the language has evolved
since we started working on thisproject and the the concept of
"anti-colonial" feels really newand exciting because
(29:14):
"decolonizing" was all the buzzwhen I was doing my undergrad.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that, please? I'd love to
hear.
Rena Roussin (29:24):
I also used the term "decolonization" until
summer 2020. Yeah, this pastsummer, I learned that some
Indigenous scholars andIndigenous peoples are actually
quite uncomfortable with how weuse the term decolonization and
how it kind of gets casuallytossed around as this trendy
(29:46):
term in education and the arts,and is used in ways that are
really meant to be, like, ametaphor or a synonym for
efforts to be more equitable orinclusive of Indigenous people
and content. Here, I'm directlystealing a quote from Eve Tuck
(30:08):
and [K.] Wayne Yang, from theirarticle, when I say,
"Decolonization isn't ametaphor, it was never meant to
be a metaphor of inclusion andequity; it's the process of
creating a nation-to-nationrelationship between Canada and
Indigenous communities." Really,decolonization is the work of
(30:33):
formal politics; I don't thinkopera is going to get us there,
but what I do think opera, andart music, and all of the arts,
and education can have a reallya wonderful, beautiful, even
profound role in playing is thegoal of creating anti-colonial
(30:53):
cultures. And, when I sayanti-colonial, I'm directly
borrowing on Ibram X. Kendi'sconcept of "anti-racist" because
if our productions, and ourcompanies, and our stagings of
opera are working to acknowledgethe art form's histories of
racism and colonialism and thenare moving forward into
(31:17):
resisting and opposing racismand colonialism, we really begin
to see opera investing in theschool of activism and social
change and moving against thesehistories of racism and
colonialism that have interactedwith it, in some ways, from its
(31:39):
inception. In the efforts to beanti-colonial, we're going to
make mistakes it's completelyunavoidable, mistakes will
happen. And I think the beautyand the way forward in
anti-colonialism isacknowledging "We made a
mistake. Here's how we won'tmake that mistake again. Here's
how we move forwards." And Ithink we've seen that even in
(32:01):
the way the COC has interactedwith Louis Riel and in so many
other Indigenous initiativesthat have been happening in
Canadian opera. I'm reallyexcited about Canadian opera
right now. I think we're on ourway, I have a lot of hope for
it.
Robyn Grant-Moran (32:19):
There's the Indigenous production of The
Magic Flute with the VancouverOpera, and there's Missing,
Sweet Land, The Seven Last Wordsof the Unarmed there's a lot
of really great progressive workhappening, and I'm wondering
(32:41):
what your thoughts are on theseand why do you think they work?
Rena Roussin (32:47):
Oh, my gosh! I think they work because they
acknowledge that there's nevergoing to be one answer to these
huge, complex questions of somany, very, in some ways
because these are all discussingreally painful lived experiences
(33:10):
in some way or another. I thinkMissing deals with missing and
murdered Indigenous women; bothSweet Land and the Indigenous
version of The Magic Flute insome way look at first contact
between settlers on TurtleIsland or North America and its
(33:32):
Indigenous inhabitants; and TheSeven Last Words of the Unarmed,
it's not quite an opera, it's achoral piece that's sort of
inspired by the genre of anoratorio that works as music
theatre, and it sets the sevenlast words or textual
(33:53):
communications of KennethChamberlain [Sr.], Trayvon
Martin, Amadou Diallo, MichaelBrown [Jr.], Oscar Grant [III],
John Crawford [III] and EricGarner. And these are not easy
pieces to sit with I remember,with all of them, particularly
(34:14):
Sweet Land, and The Seven LastWords and Missing. The Magic
Flute somehow was a bit easierto sit with because it's The
Magic Flute, but with thesethree newer pieces, I just it's
not an easy time, it's notsupposed to be an easy time. And
I think one of the reasons whyopera is a particularly
(34:35):
successful and even a powerfulgenre to use for these stories
comes from the fact that no onegoes to opera for the theatrical
structure of its plots; we go tothe opera to feel the emotions
of a plot. And, I think, withthese stories because these
(34:58):
are all things that are newsheadlines, whether it's about
the impacts of colonization, oranother Black man being shot for
existing while Black, or anothermissing or murdered Indigenous
woman it's possible for theseinstances to just become news
(35:19):
stories, not because we don'tcare but because we all have
busy lives and we maybe pausefor a minute and think, "Oh, how
tragic!" but then we ultimatelymove on. And I think the
challenge and also the glory ofthese pieces is that they don't
let us off the hook (35:39):
when I listen to The Seven Last Words
of the Unarmed, I wasinconsolable for about an hour
afterwards because when thesestories are removed from us,
when we see them as somethingseparate from us, they become
(36:00):
statistics and headlines, andnot something that impacts our
lives. But I think when youreally hear the human feeling
behind these stories that musicmakes possible, it becomes
impossible to look away; itbecomes impossible to not care,
it becomes impossible to notunderstand that these are
(36:22):
people, and I don't thinkthere's anything more activist
than really understanding andacting on that and letting a
piece of art leave you differentthan you were when you came in
to hear it.
Julie McIsaac (36:36):
Yeah, I was about to say I find myself thinking
about, but actually moreaccurately, I find myself
feeling a memory of a moment,being in the rehearsal hall of
Missing (so, music by BrianCurrent, libretto by Marie
Clements) and it's this momentwhere the young Indigenous woman
and the young white woman areseeing each other, truly seeing
(36:57):
and connecting, and now I'mthinking about Sull'aria and the
way that Susanna and theCountess, and the way you
describe their vocal lines,interacting and the parallel
lines. So, in this case inMissing, the characters, they're
singing these close, close,close intervals like, their
voices are so so close, almosttouching in those seconds, right
and it's so compelling. Andit's seeing each other and
(37:19):
feeling each other's experienceand being transformed by virtue
of that. So, for the whitecharacter, Eva, after that
moment she is transformed, she'sdifferent, she cannot continue
and unsee what she has seen andunfeel what he has felt. And it
strikes me that you're talkingabout the irrevocability of
something when we experience itin the hall once we turn it on
to listen to or once we witnessit, and how important that is
(37:42):
but how it stays with you for solong afterward.
Rena Roussin (37:46):
Yeah.
Julie McIsaac (37:47):
And I've only watched a little bit of Sweet
Land we'll link to it in theshow notes
Rena Roussin (37:50):
Amazing!
Julie McIsaac (37:51):
so people can find it produced by The
Industry in Los Angeles and,even just the first few scenes
that I have watched thus far,they leave you with a question
or they invite you or theyalmost compel you to think about
"What would you do? What do youthink about this that occurred?"
They leave space (38:06):
there's, like, that confrontation but it's a
spacious confrontation. So,you've room to think and reflect
on your own positioning to thestory and to what's being told.
Rena Roussin (38:16):
Yeah! Well and, also, I thought this was such a
brilliant way of setting a storyabout colonization: the
audiences don't have the sameexperience, there's two
different versions. And in thelink that we link to in this
podcast, our listeners will beable to stream the video of both
(38:38):
options if they want to. Butwhat if you were to actually go
to a performance of Sweet Land,one group would see one
narrative and the other groupwould see a different one, and
you're only together at thebeginning and at the end of this
story, and I think that's suchan impossibly brutal, bitter,
(39:00):
human, honest truth about no oneis going to have the same story
about colonization and whatthat's done to their experience
of being human, of what it'sdone to politics, to culture, to
the ways we live our lives.
Yeah, just to actually make thata tangible artistic decision of
(39:21):
"You won't get to experience thestory the same way, and you
won't necessarily be able tofully know what this other
person experienced you'regoing to have to ask questions
about it." Like, if you and yourfriend go to the opera together,
and you go to these differentstories, I think it gets us
asking questions, too, about,like, "Well, what did you
(39:44):
experience? What did you feel?
What was this like for you?" AndI think these are the questions
we need to be asking aboutreally complicated questions
like race, and identity, andcolonization, and trying to come
from a place of understanding"What have you experienced? What
(40:05):
don't I know?"
Julie McIsaac (40:06):
Mm hmm. And not only are they on these different
journeys in terms of whichscenes they see in orders they
see them in, but some of thethings are staged in the round,
so, even if you're therewitnessing the same scene with
some, you might be seeing itfrom a particular angle and
someone seeing it from So,therefore, you catch information
or you miss information andagain, like you said, there's a
metaphor just linked into theway that you experienced the
(40:28):
show that makes you thinkdifferently about perspective.
Rena Roussin (40:32):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (40:34):
One thing we haven't really touched on
been talking a lot about thetraumas of colonization and
there are many, and we couldtalk for years on it but we
haven't talked about thecelebratory side of activistic
opera.
Rena Roussin (40:50):
Absolutely!
Robyn Grant-Moran (40:52):
I mean, Shanawdithit, which was done by
Tapestry [Opera] and that was[librettist] Yvette Nolan and
oh, my goodness, I'm so sorrythe composer is
Julie McIsaac (41:03):
Burry, Dean Burry.
Robyn Grant-Moran (41:05):
Yes, Dean Burry! Thank you! I'm sorry,
Dean, your work is fabulous! Ittold a trauma but it told it
from almost a celebratory lens,like, that people live on, that
we're resilient despiteeverything. And then Two
(41:27):
Odysseys with Pimooteewin andGllbrtnit, where we're
telling origin stories.
Rena Roussin (41:35):
And that final moment in the Two Odysseys when
the two protagonists, MelodyCourage, walks on stage and
there's lights on her dress andyou don't understand why, and
then these two characters becomea constellation in the stars.
And, for me, that was one of themost profound things I'd ever
(41:58):
seen in opera in terms of justWe have always been here this
is something Indigenous peoplefrequently say, "We have always
been here. We have always beenon this land in this part of the
world." And when I looked atthat, it just seemed like the
most beautiful conclusion to anorigin story in that we will
(42:20):
always be here. And I think,yeah, you're absolutely right,
Robyn, in that I think so oftenwe talk about trauma narratives
and Indigenous victimized. But,yeah, there's also so much space
and an importance of leaninginto the ways these stories talk
(42:41):
about Indigenous agency andabout the resilience of our
cultures and that they're notgoing away, and we're still here
and we still have stories totell.
Julie McIsaac (42:56):
It was great to spend that time with Rena. I
found it to be so joyful andmoving and fascinating. And I
also found that there was aconnection with something that
Ravi [Jain] shared with us, backin Episode Three, about
encouraging us to see thingsanew. And I'm wondering about,
you know, these works that arenow in the canon that are
historical references we knowthem so well, we know where
(43:18):
they're headed, we know what theending is and who the characters
are but to encourage us toimagine that it's the first
time, that it's 1780 and you'veheard there's this really cool
thing happening in this theatre,and you're showing up there with
your pals, and you'reexperiencing it for the first
time within the context of thesocietal norms and the gender
constructs of the time and allof that. So, I think it's good
(43:41):
for us to remember that advicefrom Ravi and to take it into
this as well as we consider howthose works of the past were
activist.
Robyn Grant-Moran (43:48):
I keep thinking about what would it be
like to see Figaro for the firsttime with the censorship issues,
how much work had to be done toremove all the offensive bits.
Julie McIsaac (44:06):
And Verdi, as well, as an example of another
composer who had to respond tothat and had to change content
because of censorship. Can youimagine, Robyn, if we heard that
there was this reallyprovocative thing happening down
the street at the opera house,and then suddenly the censors
clamps down and it was no longerhappening? Or we knew that, when
we saw it a week later, it wasgoing to be changed from what
the original intention was?
Like, what would happen if thatwas if that was [inaudible]
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:30):
hear clanking, clanking, angry
clanking on keyboards.
Julie McIsaac (44:35):
Better go wild.
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:37):
It would be a buzz.
Julie McIsaac (44:40):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:42):
Yeah, like, how were people responding in
that time like, what was lifelike when they heard this
information? It's so difficultto imagine but that was their
world, that was their norm.
Julie McIsaac (44:57):
Mm hmm. And then the Prisoners' Chorus that Rena
mentioned from Fidelio (45:00):
imagine being the first person to ever
hear that and not knowing thatthat moment was going to come in
the opera.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:07):
And then, like, to all of a sudden have a
woman there singing in thatcontext, when you've always ever
seen heroic numbers sung by men,like
Julie McIsaac (45:20):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:21):
that must have been mind-blowing!
Julie McIsaac (45:23):
I'm wondering, Robyn, for you
something that you've witnessedon the opera stage or that
you've heard that really movedyou to act, if we think about
activism and what that means?
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:34):
Well, short and cheesy answer is opera moves
me to be my best person; itcreates space to look at
difficult subject matter in asafe way, you know? It's removed
from everyday discourse and itis so heightened and so
dramatized that it almostdoesn't seem real.
Julie McIsaac (45:57):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because Beethoven's
part of this conversation byvirtue of Fidelio, and I don't
know, in terms of his ability tohear and his loss of hearing, I
don't know where Fidelio sits onthat spectrum in terms of where
he was at when he composed that.
But just in general, to thinkthat this is someone who
continued to compose as he waslosing his hearing and what he
was able to compose despitethose circumstances, you go,
(46:19):
"Well, if that as possible, whatam I capable of?" And I find
myself thinking about that whenyou say it inspires you to be
your best self, in that we seethese people on stage these
singers, or if we think ofcircus artists, or athletes at
the height of their abilitiesand you go, "Okay, look at what
they've been able to accomplishby virtue of the study, and the
(46:40):
training, and the focus!" And itdoes sort of incite you to think
about "What am i capable of?
What influence can I exert if Iwork harder, or if I try more in
my sphere of influence?"whether that's artistic, whether
that's public service, whetherthat's teachers in the
classroom, who are doing amazingactivist things every day?
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:01):
And the notion that we have these people
who have been studying somethingso specifically for so long, and
that we can all come togetherand work in a coordinated
fashion to make this larger thanlife thing happen really speaks
(47:23):
to the potential and the bestside of people
Julie McIsaac (47:29):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:31):
which may or may not be activistic in nature
but I believe that activism isrooted in wanting the best and
striving for the best. So, it'sa great space for that.
Julie McIsaac (47:50):
Yeah, and challenging the status quo
because if we accept the statusquo, we're saying, "Everything's
okay as it is"
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:56):
Yeah.
Julie McIsaac (47:56):
"Everything is perfect, we've achieved the best
possible outcome." And wehaven't
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:00):
Exactly.
Julie (48:01):
we have some work to do.
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:03):
We always should be striving for the best.
Julie McIsaac (48:06):
And I think about it, too, sometimes when I
reflect on why I like stagingr why I like directing or
reating things is because, forthose two hours of those two-and
a-half hours, you get to explorethe world as you dream it could
be, or as you wish it were. Oyou get to spend that tim
bringing people's attention tsomething that you feel i
important or that you want themto spend some time feeling or
(48:28):
contemplating. And then with theidea that if we can do it on
stage for two hours, maybe thattwo hours becomes three hours in
someone's life, or four hours, ofive hours, or a day, a week t
at they're still thinkingnd living in that way
or contemplating those things.
nd then eventually, it takes ovr!
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:44):
I'm immediately reminded of our
conversation with CherieDimaline when talking about
speculative fiction and theprevalence of it with Indigenous
authors, and how it's a spacewhere you can explore life
without the colonial gaze. And Imean, of course, in opera in
(49:10):
any art that applies, like,it's space to explore life
without something that'suncomfortable, "What would life
look like if we all strive forour best selves, if government
rule were different, if socialnorms were different?"
Julie McIsaac (49:30):
And if we all had the emotional experience of
something so rather thanreading a headline in a
newspaper or hearing aboutsomething that's happened when
we receive it in an operaticcontext through an aria. I'm
thinking about the mother's ariafrom Missing: she's silent in a
lot of the early staging or youhear her keening, but it's in
(49:53):
that moment of aria where shehas that text and she's speaking
about the birth of her daughterwho is now gone, and she's
expressing her grief but, also,what I think I find most
impactful it's on an emotionallevel, so it's hard to put words
to it is her love, and thatreminds me of Cherie as well,
who said, like, "Theresponsibility, what we're
carrying is love," and with allthat complexity and that's the
(50:17):
big thing right now is, "What isit like to carry that love in
Robyn Grant-Moran (50:22):
So, speaking of love, that makes me wonder,
these times?"
dear audience listeners (50:27):
what are your thoughts on activism
and opera? What have you seen?
What do you love what makes youstrive to be a better person?
These are things we want to knowfrom you.
Julie McIsaac (50:42):
So either tag us on social @CanadianOpera, or
email us at audiences@coc.ca. Wecertainly appreciate all the
feedback that we've received sofar and the reviews that you've
left on Apple Podcasts, so keepthose coming. But, as Robyn
mentioned, as we get into theseideas, we'd love to hear how
they're sitting with you andwhat responses you might have in
relationship to them.
Robyn Grant-Moran (51:03):
We recently received a message from COC
subscriber Mary about EpisodeFive, with Cherie Dimaline and
Ian Cusson, and we really wantto share this with you.
Julie McIsaac (51:14):
Shall I read it out?
Robyn Grant-Moran (51:15):
Yes, please.
Julie McIsaac (51:17):
"As a relative newcomer to opera, I haven't
seen them all and have tended toavoid the newer creations.
However, the artists you spoketo this time made me realize
that the canon isn't andshouldn't be static; there is a
responsibility to develop acanon that will go forward for
future listeners. A repertoireis always of the past, and the
bigger it is, the more we candraw from to illuminate the
(51:38):
present."
Robyn Grant-Moran (51:39):
Thanks, Mary!
Julie McIsaac (51:41):
We've had so much great feedback already from many
of you and know you might havesome burning questions about
what you've heard on thispodcast or about opera in
general. So, we are dedicating awhole episode on March 30 to
questions from you, ourlisteners.
Robyn Grant-Moran (51:54):
To have your questions featured on the show,
send us an email ataudiences@coc.ca, tag us on
social @CanadianOpera, or emailus a voice memo you can find
instructions for thatcoc.ca/KeyChange.
Julie McIsaac (52:11):
And you can ask us anything. There is no
question too weird, too obvious,or too complex.
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:17):
And if we don't know the answer, we'll
find someone who does.
Julie McIsaac (52:20):
We don't necessarily have all the
answers, we're still learningall the time.
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:24):
One thing I've always wondered about is
wigs and shoes. With wigs (52:26):
who makes them, who takes care of
them? And shoes (52:30):
how do you choose them? What's good for the
stage?
Julie McIsaac (52:34):
Yeah, so many great questions! So, send those
our way before March 5, and thenhopefully we'll get to them in
our episode on March 30. Wecouldn't squeeze into this
episode everything from ourinterview with Rena but, if
you're a COC subscriber, you canhear more.
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:49):
So, make sure to watch for the link in your
supporter newsletter.
Julie McIsaac (52:52):
And next time we'll be chatting with the
disruptor/conductor DanieBartholomew-Poyser. Stay tuned
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:59):
See you next time.
Be the first to find out aboutfree events and concerts from
the COC by signing up for ourmonthly eOpera newsletter at
coc.ca/eOpera.
Julie McIsaac (53:19):
Thank you to all of our supporters for making Key
Change possible. This week, wewant to especially thank every
COC member, subscriber, anddonor for coming on this journey
with us as we explore new waysto share opera's unique power.
Robyn Grant-Moran (53:33):
So to make sure you don't miss an episode,
subscribe to Key Change whereveryou get your podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (53:40):
Key Change is produced by the Canadian Opera
Company and hosted by RobynGrant-Moran and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (53:46):
To learn more about today's guests and see the
show notes, please visit ourwebsite at coc.ca/KeyChange.
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to Key Change (00:00):
A COC Podcast, where we explore
everything about opera from afresh perspective.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:23):
Hi there and welcome to episode seven. Today
we're going to be talking aboutopera and activism. To help us
explore this more in depth,we're going to talk to an expert
in the field, musicologist andmy friend Rena Roussin. She's
currently pursuing a doctorateat the University of Toronto.
Her research examines activismin both opera and oratorio in
(00:44):
the Age of Enlightenment, aswell as art music performance in
Canada, in the age of truth andreconciliation. She's also a
member of the COC Circle ofArtists.
Julie McIsaac (00:55):
Let's hear from Rena.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:06):
Hi, Rena.
Thank you for joining us today.
Rena Roussin (01:09):
Hi, Julie. Hi, Robyn. Thank you so much for
having me!
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:13):
We're really excited to talk to you about all
your experience with theacademic side of opera and how
it can be applied practically.
So, I'm wondering, was there aparticularly impactful moment
that informed your journeytowards music and theatre?
Rena Roussin (01:31):
Oh, my gosh. I can't really hone in on one
moment. I can't remember a timewhen I didn't love music and
theatre and how they allow us totell stories. And I started
singing, like, before I startedspeaking I was mimicking songs
on the radio. But classicalmusic came later for me: I was
(01:55):
about 16 or 17 before I reallystarted getting into that
particular piece. And Iremember: I was actually on a
high school theatre trip inVictoria [BC] and I was cutting
through the VictoriaConservatory of Music to get to
the Metro Studio [Theatre] nextdoor for an improv tournament,
(02:17):
and I was just, kind of, runningthrough the practice rooms I
was running late and I musthave heard opera before then but
it was my first time everhearing somebody sing it live.
So here I am, running throughthis hallway, running late for a
show and I just stopped in mytracks. It was just like, "What
is that?" I just remember, like,my legs felt like they were
(02:39):
going to give out and justthinking, "What is that? I want
to do that. That's so cool!"
Robyn Grant-Moran (02:44):
I have a similar memory when I was in
first year [of] universitystudying saxophone when I was 18
and hearing the voice studioright next to the sax studio,
and there's just nothing likehearing it that close it's
profound!
Julie McIsaac (03:01):
I was just gonna say
Marriage of] Figaro at theVictoria Conservatory of Music,
so that was a very special placefor me, too, in my journey
towards opera!
Robyn Grant-Moran (03:10):
So, I'm wondering, how and when did you
merge your artistic and academicinterests? What brought those
things together?
Rena Roussin (03:18):
Funnily enough, when I started college, I was
actually a political sciencemajor and had no plans on
studying music but I just was sointerested by it and so in love
with it that I was just like,"Well, I'll do a minor in music.
Music's a wonderful thing, everyculture has its own variation of
(03:39):
it, so one day when I'm adiplomat, this will be useful!"
And then I went into my firstmusic history class as a music
minor and the instructor Dr.
Susan Lewis at UVic [Universityof Victoria], back in Victoria
explained what musicology was.
and I was just like, "Okay, ifwe get multiple lifetimes, this
is it (04:03):
this is what I'm doing." And clearly somewhere in the
last 10 years I sped up thattimeline but I think, for me
this is kind of a roundabout wayof answering but I was
premature by three months as ababy. So my vocal cords grew
around intubation, so I'vealways been a singer but I've
always had a very differenttimbre a timbre that doesn't
(04:28):
really fit classical singingbecause of the nature of my
vocal cords. So literally andfiguratively, in some ways,
because I came so late toclassical music and because
it's tricky for me to singclassically I had a voice that
didn't really fit. I knew Iwanted to be part of this
(04:49):
academic musical community but Iwas a first-generation student,
I didn't grow up listening toclassical music, I had this
voice people didn't really knowwhat to do with, and it made me
feel really alone and left outwhen I was first starting my
journey in academia. But alongthe way, I had really wonderful
(05:13):
teachers and mentors and friendswho were, like, "Of course you
belong here." Like, "Of courseyou have something to give; you
should be a part of thiscommunity." So I think when I
really started looking at operaand art music, I really started
thinking, "Oh, there are othergroups of people who have really
been left out of this space andour narratives about it for ways
(05:37):
that are much more toxic andmuch less okay than the reasons
why I didn't necessarily feellike part of it. Arguing for the
presence of other people whohave been left out or excluded
from our spaces really just feltlike a natural step to me; it
felt like what I should be doingbecause so many people tried to
(06:00):
make me feel welcome, until aplace that felt really foreign
to me became a place where Ireally feel at home.
Robyn Grant-Moran (06:07):
And that really aligns nicely when you
talk about art music asactivism.
Rena Roussin (06:14):
I think when we talk about activism we tend, for
understandable reasons, to thinkabout the really obvious
components of activism whetherthat's marching at protests or
writing our representatives. Sowhen I talk about activism, I'm
asking a word to do reallypowerful work and that I think
(06:36):
of activism as being manydifferent things: as being
representation and who getsincluded or excluded from our
spaces, and whose stories andwhose narratives matter, who
gets to be seen in our society,who has power. And when we think
of activism that way, I thinkthe arts absolutely have an
(06:57):
immense role to play in it. AndI think opera absolutely has a
deeply important role to play inthat, in part because there are
some I don't want to say toxictoxic, I think, is too strong
a word but some reallydamaging aspects of opera's
history that we need to addressand find ways to move forward
(07:20):
from. The impulse of activismisn't new like, the term
activism is something thatevolved in the 1960s. So
sometimes people look at mequite strangely when I'm talking
about this art form from the18th century as, "Yeah. of
course it's activist," becausethat term didn't exist yet. But
(07:40):
when I look at the history ofopera, I look at a history of
composers and librettists andperformers who understood that
there were issues of their dayin the world that weren't being
addressed, and they were usingmusic as a way to address that,
to try to push forward, to tryto create, in whatever way, was
(08:04):
appropriate or understandable intheir time, a slightly better
world.
Julie McIsaac (08:08):
Yeah. Well, Rena, with that, like, when we think
back to the composers of old, ofwell known operas, we don't
necessarily think of thosepeople as subversive or
progressive. But there certainlyare plenty of examples. Could
you share with us around that?
Rena Roussin (08:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Robyn and I are friends weeven hang out sometimes and
one of our running gags almostis trying to find any opera in
the operatic canon that doesn'thave something that was
subversive for its time
Julie McIsaac (08:42):
at the time, right!
Rena Roussin (08:43):
Yeah. And I think that's an important thing to
hold onto like, of course,when we look at the history of
the operatic canon, by anyodern 21st century, if you go
ack to a work from 1780 or erlier, of course it's going to h
ve issues from our knowedge. But when we try to enga
e with the work on its own termin For example, The Marr
(09:05):
age of Figaro is one of my favoites, so it's never far from
my mind. And when you think abouthis opera being written in a
age when there was a reallstrict social class hierar
hy and order and there's the aritocrats and there's their se
vants and, at the same time, ths age when women were property,
(09:27):
suddenly you get this opera byLorenzo] Da Ponte and [Wolf
ang Amadeus] Mozart, thoughtsbout like, women are runn
ng this show; they're diving the entire plo
forwards and, really significntly,. they're singing togeth
r and they're making a plan abut how to blur these social di
(09:51):
ensions. If we could even thinabout "Sull'aria [... che soav
zeffiretto]" as an example becase, of course, Mozart's not re
ponsible for the text of the opra Da Ponte wrote that but
e can see Mozart also playng into this blurring of socia
divisions and of gendered hierachies, and that you have
(10:13):
these two women who are overy different social classe
, who are suddenly singing togther in the exact same style.
You have the countess [Cuntess Almaviva] and he
servant [Susanna] making musicogether in imitated lines
Julie McIsaac (11:13):
Rena, I find myself thinking about the
staging of that scene, too, andthe physical choices that you
make in the sense of who isstanding and who is sitting and,
physically, are they on equalfooting or are you choosing to
show them in a certain way?
Because, like you said, theseare two women coming together to
try to alter the outcome of asituation and their fate.
Rena Roussin (11:32):
Yeah, well, and I think we forget, from our 21st
century vantage points, like,music absolutely had stylistic
patterns based on social classesin the 18th century. So when
Susanna is singing in the samestyle as the Countess, that
absolutely would have had sonicsignificance to that audience;
(11:52):
they would have heard, "Oh,she's doing something
different." Like, she's notsinging the way she's supposed
to and, to me, like, that'sabsolutely subversive; that's
absolutely activist.
Robyn Grant-Moran (12:04):
And, if I could just jump in for a moment
many of our listeners doprobably know this but the
plays that Figaro was based on,the [Pierre] Beaumarchais plays,
were banned. Even the choice tomake this opera happen was
subversive.
Rena Roussin (12:20):
If you want to talk about how opera is
activist, look at the history ofoperatic censorship: 90 per cent
of the opera that we go listento was composed usually 100
years ago or more, so I think weforget opera was always being
written and commenting on thepolitical issues of its days, of
(12:41):
its timeframe. And when we seenew opera today, as well, we
hear that same commentary, sothere's always been this history
of opera engaging with theissues of its day. And some
semblance of censorship of, "No,you can't talk about that!" And
composers fighting sneaky waysto go like, "Oh, really! Want to
(13:02):
bet?" But, also I know thisepisode will air later but
today is Inauguration Day in theUnited States, so I imagine all
three of us just got to watchPresident [Joe] Biden and Vice
President [Kamala] Harris beingsworn in a few hours ago and,
really, the opera in my mindtoday in part because of that
(13:24):
is Fidelio, [Ludwig Van]Beethoven's opera about
political liberation, where awoman, Leonore, is at the center
role as this heroic conquerorwho overthrows political
tyranny.
Julie McIsaac (14:00):
Is there anything in particular, Rena, around
Fidelio that stands out to you?
Rena Roussin (14:04):
For me, the Prisoners' Chorus [O welche
Lust"O what a joy"] is thisreally huge piece of the opera
that's had this ongoingtrajectory of activism both in
its original conception, in itsstagings, because it's this huge
statement about politicalliberation and also about
(14:25):
imprisonment and both of thoseimpulses at once. So you think
about what that piece would havemeant in the age of the French
Revolution, when there'spolitical prisoners imprisoned
for fighting for this moment ofliberation, and then the ways
modern day opera companies,contemporary opera companies are
(14:46):
engaging with this story and ourongoing stories about political
turmoil or about politicaloppression. I know Manitoba
Opera invited refugees in 2014to come stand on stage during
the Prisoners' Chorus, whilethey're singing about this
profound moment of overthrowingtyranny and political freedom.
(15:10):
Heartbeat Opera in New York Cityhad a really beautiful
initiative of welcoming Theyhad live-streamed footage from
six different prison choirs, soactual prisoners were singing
this piece with trained operasingers in a production that was
about disproportionate blackincarceration, where they've
(15:33):
updated the plot to be Leah,instead of Leonore, is trying to
free her black activist husbandor partner. She's trying to free
him from being wrongfullyincarcerated for activism within
the Black Lives Matter movement.
So, taking this old story andfinding a way to bring it into
the current political moment,into Black Lives Matter or,
(15:56):
even for us today, sitting here,what would the Prisoners' Chorus
mean on the day Joe Biden andKamala Harris were inaugurated;
what does it mean on a day whenMadam Vice President is no
longer a fictional character?
It's looking at what weoverthrew today, centuries long
(16:18):
history that says women can'thold highest office. It's the
story that we get to tellinganew in all these different
political ages, that alwayscomes back to this goal of "What
does it mean to be free? How dowe further the cause of
freedom?"
Julie McIsaac (17:05):
With, you know, you mentioned Figaro, and you
mentioned Fidelio, and then ifwe start moving through history
and coming closer to our presentday, what are your thoughts on
how opera has continued to serveas a vessel for social
commentary?
Rena Roussin (17:17):
You have this simultaneous challenge and
opportunity of interacting withthese works that are almost
historic documents of theirtime, but which can also be
given new life into speaking toevery period of time they
interact with. So, Fidelio, forexample: what did Fidelio mean
(17:41):
10 years after the FrenchRevolution? What did Fidelio
mean during the Second WorldWar? What does Fidelio mean
today, on the day of Biden andHarris's inauguration? There's
always been this trajectory ofnew meanings found in old works,
(18:03):
and the fact that so many ofthese themes can speak to
different experiences indifferent time periods. When
Fidelio premiered, it wasentirely appropriate for a group
of men to be writing a storyabout a woman sneaking into the
heroic archetype, which I thinkis also one of the reasons I
(18:23):
love that work so much that'sfinally for once, instead of
seeing a woman die at the end ofan opera or otherwise be
punished for existing foronce, you get to see a woman
being the heroic conqueror;she's the one held up at the end
of the stage while everyone'ssinging about her achievements.
(18:44):
And I think that's a workhistory has needed,
unfortunately, until I wouldsay, the late 20th century, at
the start of the 21st century.
Unfortunately, in some ways,even now opera has been
something composed by Europeanmen. There's some beautiful work
by those men and I don't want tothrow that all out, but I think
(19:07):
one of the beautiful thingswe've really seen happening in
opera more and more is that moreand more communities are coming
into opera, and writing it, andtelling their own stories. So,
for example, it was completelyappropriate in an age when women
were property for [Jean-Nicolas]Bouilly and [Joseph]
Sonnleithner and Beethoven tocreate an opera about women and
(19:29):
about their empowerment. But inthe 21st century, no, it's time
for women to write operas aboutthat story; it's time for
indigenous people and blackpeople to tell us stories about
their community through thesounds and the materials and the
narratives that they choose toshare with us.
Robyn Grant-Moran (19:54):
I'm really curious to go back a little bit
to the idea of dealing with thisolder work, with the canon,
where we are dealing with a lotof There are progressive ideas
but there's so much racism,there's so much misogyny, and
that was unfortunately part ofthe existence in the world in
(20:16):
which it was created. And nowyou said we shouldn't just throw
it all out, but do you haveideas on more ways to handle
that in the 21st century? [Waysto] Handle those issues?
Rena Roussin (20:31):
Yeah, they're so complicated. They're so
complicated.
Robyn Grant-Moran (20:36):
Solve opera right now! You have 20 minutes
go!
Rena Roussin (20:44):
I think, so often when I tell people that I study
opera as activism, I seecommunities and people who feel
like who love opera as I doand as much as I do who feel
like I'm wanting tofundamentally change opera or
take something away from them,or foundationally get rid of or
(21:08):
alter this piece of art thatthey really love, and I think
that's a really intensemisunderstanding of what the
goal of opera as activism is (21:16):
I don't want to take anything away
from anyone; I want to bring, ifanything, more opera in. I want
us all to have more of this artform that we love. I want to be
able to go see Carmen one night,and then see Ian Cusson's new
(21:39):
opera, and then go see anadaptation of Toni Morrison's
Blue the next night. I want theart form to get to expand but
also, at the end of the day, I'ma historian and I feel like if
we don't learn from our historyif we don't remember it and
(22:02):
think about it and understandwhere we went wrong we're
doomed to keep making thosemistakes. And I actually think
opera is a really beautiful,valuable tool, in part as a
historical document because itreminds us that we live in a
world that has been misogynist,that has been deeply racist,
that has caused very, very, veryreal harm to numerous
(22:27):
communities. I think if we'regoing to lean into those issues,
we shouldn't ignore them; weshould be acknowledging that
that's part of the human storya heartbreaking part but one we
need to acknowledge but,therefore, one we also need to
(22:47):
think about if we're going tostage it, how do we stage it
responsibly. I'm 125 per centhere for a fully historic
staging of Le nozze di Figaro[English: The Marriage of
Figaro], I'm here for thepowdered wigs and stagings that
lean into the hierarchiesbecause we need to remember that
those existed. I've also 125 percent here for a staging that
(23:10):
completely reimagines thatpiece. I remember once one of my
students was like, "Has anyoneever set Figaro in the Clinton
White House?" And I was like,"Oh, my god! We have to do
this!"
Julie McIsaac (23:27):
Wow!
Rena Roussin (23:28):
Yeah. So, yeah, I feel like there's a place to
lean into how these stories havehistorically been harmful and
just pretending it was neverthere getting rid of it, never
staging it again I think, runsthe risk of ignoring very real
realities of our history. Butmaybe the challenge of solving
(23:51):
opera, I think, is finding waysto minimize the harm in its
history whether that'sOrientalism or its really
horrific history of sexuallyviolent scenes finding ways to
minimize the harm of thatwithout ignoring realities of
that, while also leaning intomoments of subversion and beauty
(24:16):
and this ongoing history oftrying to answer these huge
questions of "What does it meanto be alive in the world? What
does it mean to love? What doesit mean to be free?"
Robyn Grant-Moran (24:32):
I think this is a really good time to talk
about your academic workspecifically. Like, the work
you're doing with unsettling artmusic, the project you're
working on.
Rena Roussin (24:43):
You mean the project *we're* working on?
Robyn Grant-Moran (24:45):
Yes, sorry! I always because it's your baby
but I have been involved in thatand I am so grateful and
privileged to have thatopportunity. Can you tell the
audience more about that?
Rena Roussin (24:59):
So, we have this group project that we've been
working on Robyn's right inthat it is my baby: I
conceptualized and designed theoriginal impetus for the project
but it's really a project thatbelongs to Robyn, to Rebecca
Cuddy, to Nicole Lavalee, toMarion Newman, to Olivia Shortt
(25:21):
and also a little bit to me. Butin the end, we all created
Robyn Grant-Moran (25:25):
We'll change the diapers on occasion!
Rena Roussin (25:29):
At the end of the day, it's something we all are
creating and writing together.
When I first assigned it, Ithought, "Oh, this will be a
good journal article one day"I still hope it will be, but
what we're ultimately doingtogether is I've done
interviews with these fiveIndigenous performers, these
five Indigenous women and it'simportant to me like, this is
(25:53):
a project about empowering andhearing and listening to the
voices of Indigenous women. Butreally, what the project is
trying to do is engage with thefour questions that Senator
Murray Sinclair once stated,"all indigenous people must ask
in order to know who they are."
(26:16):
"Where do I come from?" "Wheream I going?" "What is my
purpose?" "Who am I?" And, inthe project, we're really trying
to take those questions andapply them to art music. So,
from Indigenous perspectives,"Where does art music come from?
What has it already done? Inwhat ways have its histories and
(26:38):
practices excluded ormarginalized Indigenous people?
In the 21st century, who doesart music even belong to? Who is
it for? Where is it going? Whatis it? What's its purpose? What
community is can it serve?" So,together, we're asking these
questions and it's partlyethnography, it's partly a
(27:01):
history lesson about where thegenre has been, it's partly a
guide on the effort to includeIndigenous people in art music,
and how we can do thatrespectfully, in ways that allow
both the historic Europeansettler art music community and
the Indigenous community that isinvolved in art music to all
(27:25):
move forwards together in a goodway. But it's just grown into
this huge thing that I think,to all of us, it's become bigger
than the journal article Iwanted it to be. I think it's,
hopefully, going to grow into aseries of performances, into a
book, into maybe somethingreally tangible that we can give
(27:47):
to artistic companies as a giftof "Here's this knowledge that
we've all created together. Takeit! Move it forward it's yours
now!" And, for me, the mostimportant thing with this
project is that it's leveragingthe privilege I have as an
academic and as someone who hassome power as a graduate student
(28:10):
maybe not that much power butsome in an academic setting
and it's giving it back toIndigenous communities, and
finding ways to point out thatIndigenous people and Indigenous
performers are experts in whatthey do; they're the voices we
need to be listening to inunderstanding what it's going to
(28:34):
take to move our narratives ofart music and especially art
music that's created in Canadaforward into better narratives
that bring us together and allowus to tell new stories together.
Robyn Grant-Moran (28:50):
One thing I'm really curious about is the
distinction that you drawbetween "anti-colonial" and
"decolonizing" in the work,because the language has evolved
since we started working on thisproject and the the concept of
"anti-colonial" feels really newand exciting because
(29:14):
"decolonizing" was all the buzzwhen I was doing my undergrad.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that, please? I'd love to
hear.
Rena Roussin (29:24):
I also used the term "decolonization" until
summer 2020. Yeah, this pastsummer, I learned that some
Indigenous scholars andIndigenous peoples are actually
quite uncomfortable with how weuse the term decolonization and
how it kind of gets casuallytossed around as this trendy
(29:46):
term in education and the arts,and is used in ways that are
really meant to be, like, ametaphor or a synonym for
efforts to be more equitable orinclusive of Indigenous people
and content. Here, I'm directlystealing a quote from Eve Tuck
(30:08):
and [K.] Wayne Yang, from theirarticle, when I say,
"Decolonization isn't ametaphor, it was never meant to
be a metaphor of inclusion andequity; it's the process of
creating a nation-to-nationrelationship between Canada and
Indigenous communities." Really,decolonization is the work of
(30:33):
formal politics; I don't thinkopera is going to get us there,
but what I do think opera, andart music, and all of the arts,
and education can have a reallya wonderful, beautiful, even
profound role in playing is thegoal of creating anti-colonial
(30:53):
cultures. And, when I sayanti-colonial, I'm directly
borrowing on Ibram X. Kendi'sconcept of "anti-racist" because
if our productions, and ourcompanies, and our stagings of
opera are working to acknowledgethe art form's histories of
racism and colonialism and thenare moving forward into
(31:17):
resisting and opposing racismand colonialism, we really begin
to see opera investing in theschool of activism and social
change and moving against thesehistories of racism and
colonialism that have interactedwith it, in some ways, from its
(31:39):
inception. In the efforts to beanti-colonial, we're going to
make mistakes it's completelyunavoidable, mistakes will
happen. And I think the beautyand the way forward in
anti-colonialism isacknowledging "We made a
mistake. Here's how we won'tmake that mistake again. Here's
how we move forwards." And Ithink we've seen that even in
(32:01):
the way the COC has interactedwith Louis Riel and in so many
other Indigenous initiativesthat have been happening in
Canadian opera. I'm reallyexcited about Canadian opera
right now. I think we're on ourway, I have a lot of hope for
it.
Robyn Grant-Moran (32:19):
There's the Indigenous production of The
Magic Flute with the VancouverOpera, and there's Missing,
Sweet Land, The Seven Last Wordsof the Unarmed there's a lot
of really great progressive workhappening, and I'm wondering
(32:41):
what your thoughts are on theseand why do you think they work?
Rena Roussin (32:47):
Oh, my gosh! I think they work because they
acknowledge that there's nevergoing to be one answer to these
huge, complex questions of somany, very, in some ways
because these are all discussingreally painful lived experiences
(33:10):
in some way or another. I thinkMissing deals with missing and
murdered Indigenous women; bothSweet Land and the Indigenous
version of The Magic Flute insome way look at first contact
between settlers on TurtleIsland or North America and its
(33:32):
Indigenous inhabitants; and TheSeven Last Words of the Unarmed,
it's not quite an opera, it's achoral piece that's sort of
inspired by the genre of anoratorio that works as music
theatre, and it sets the sevenlast words or textual
(33:53):
communications of KennethChamberlain [Sr.], Trayvon
Martin, Amadou Diallo, MichaelBrown [Jr.], Oscar Grant [III],
John Crawford [III] and EricGarner. And these are not easy
pieces to sit with I remember,with all of them, particularly
(34:14):
Sweet Land, and The Seven LastWords and Missing. The Magic
Flute somehow was a bit easierto sit with because it's The
Magic Flute, but with thesethree newer pieces, I just it's
not an easy time, it's notsupposed to be an easy time. And
I think one of the reasons whyopera is a particularly
(34:35):
successful and even a powerfulgenre to use for these stories
comes from the fact that no onegoes to opera for the theatrical
structure of its plots; we go tothe opera to feel the emotions
of a plot. And, I think, withthese stories because these
(34:58):
are all things that are newsheadlines, whether it's about
the impacts of colonization, oranother Black man being shot for
existing while Black, or anothermissing or murdered Indigenous
woman it's possible for theseinstances to just become news
(35:19):
stories, not because we don'tcare but because we all have
busy lives and we maybe pausefor a minute and think, "Oh, how
tragic!" but then we ultimatelymove on. And I think the
challenge and also the glory ofthese pieces is that they don't
let us off the hook (35:39):
when I listen to The Seven Last Words
of the Unarmed, I wasinconsolable for about an hour
afterwards because when thesestories are removed from us,
when we see them as somethingseparate from us, they become
(36:00):
statistics and headlines, andnot something that impacts our
lives. But I think when youreally hear the human feeling
behind these stories that musicmakes possible, it becomes
impossible to look away; itbecomes impossible to not care,
it becomes impossible to notunderstand that these are
(36:22):
people, and I don't thinkthere's anything more activist
than really understanding andacting on that and letting a
piece of art leave you differentthan you were when you came in
to hear it.
Julie McIsaac (36:36):
Yeah, I was about to say I find myself thinking
about, but actually moreaccurately, I find myself
feeling a memory of a moment,being in the rehearsal hall of
Missing (so, music by BrianCurrent, libretto by Marie
Clements) and it's this momentwhere the young Indigenous woman
and the young white woman areseeing each other, truly seeing
(36:57):
and connecting, and now I'mthinking about Sull'aria and the
way that Susanna and theCountess, and the way you
describe their vocal lines,interacting and the parallel
lines. So, in this case inMissing, the characters, they're
singing these close, close,close intervals like, their
voices are so so close, almosttouching in those seconds, right
and it's so compelling. Andit's seeing each other and
(37:19):
feeling each other's experienceand being transformed by virtue
of that. So, for the whitecharacter, Eva, after that
moment she is transformed, she'sdifferent, she cannot continue
and unsee what she has seen andunfeel what he has felt. And it
strikes me that you're talkingabout the irrevocability of
something when we experience itin the hall once we turn it on
to listen to or once we witnessit, and how important that is
(37:42):
but how it stays with you for solong afterward.
Rena Roussin (37:46):
Yeah.
Julie McIsaac (37:47):
And I've only watched a little bit of Sweet
Land we'll link to it in theshow notes
Rena Roussin (37:50):
Amazing!
Julie McIsaac (37:51):
so people can find it produced by The
Industry in Los Angeles and,even just the first few scenes
that I have watched thus far,they leave you with a question
or they invite you or theyalmost compel you to think about
"What would you do? What do youthink about this that occurred?"
They leave space (38:06):
there's, like, that confrontation but it's a
spacious confrontation. So,you've room to think and reflect
on your own positioning to thestory and to what's being told.
Rena Roussin (38:16):
Yeah! Well and, also, I thought this was such a
brilliant way of setting a storyabout colonization: the
audiences don't have the sameexperience, there's two
different versions. And in thelink that we link to in this
podcast, our listeners will beable to stream the video of both
(38:38):
options if they want to. Butwhat if you were to actually go
to a performance of Sweet Land,one group would see one
narrative and the other groupwould see a different one, and
you're only together at thebeginning and at the end of this
story, and I think that's suchan impossibly brutal, bitter,
(39:00):
human, honest truth about no oneis going to have the same story
about colonization and whatthat's done to their experience
of being human, of what it'sdone to politics, to culture, to
the ways we live our lives.
Yeah, just to actually make thata tangible artistic decision of
(39:21):
"You won't get to experience thestory the same way, and you
won't necessarily be able tofully know what this other
person experienced you'regoing to have to ask questions
about it." Like, if you and yourfriend go to the opera together,
and you go to these differentstories, I think it gets us
asking questions, too, about,like, "Well, what did you
(39:44):
experience? What did you feel?
What was this like for you?" AndI think these are the questions
we need to be asking aboutreally complicated questions
like race, and identity, andcolonization, and trying to come
from a place of understanding"What have you experienced? What
(40:05):
don't I know?"
Julie McIsaac (40:06):
Mm hmm. And not only are they on these different
journeys in terms of whichscenes they see in orders they
see them in, but some of thethings are staged in the round,
so, even if you're therewitnessing the same scene with
some, you might be seeing itfrom a particular angle and
someone seeing it from So,therefore, you catch information
or you miss information andagain, like you said, there's a
metaphor just linked into theway that you experienced the
(40:28):
show that makes you thinkdifferently about perspective.
Rena Roussin (40:32):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (40:34):
One thing we haven't really touched on
been talking a lot about thetraumas of colonization and
there are many, and we couldtalk for years on it but we
haven't talked about thecelebratory side of activistic
opera.
Rena Roussin (40:50):
Absolutely!
Robyn Grant-Moran (40:52):
I mean, Shanawdithit, which was done by
Tapestry [Opera] and that was[librettist] Yvette Nolan and
oh, my goodness, I'm so sorrythe composer is
Julie McIsaac (41:03):
Burry, Dean Burry.
Robyn Grant-Moran (41:05):
Yes, Dean Burry! Thank you! I'm sorry,
Dean, your work is fabulous! Ittold a trauma but it told it
from almost a celebratory lens,like, that people live on, that
we're resilient despiteeverything. And then Two
(41:27):
Odysseys with Pimooteewin andGllbrtnit, where we're
telling origin stories.
Rena Roussin (41:35):
And that final moment in the Two Odysseys when
the two protagonists, MelodyCourage, walks on stage and
there's lights on her dress andyou don't understand why, and
then these two characters becomea constellation in the stars.
And, for me, that was one of themost profound things I'd ever
(41:58):
seen in opera in terms of justWe have always been here this
is something Indigenous peoplefrequently say, "We have always
been here. We have always beenon this land in this part of the
world." And when I looked atthat, it just seemed like the
most beautiful conclusion to anorigin story in that we will
(42:20):
always be here. And I think,yeah, you're absolutely right,
Robyn, in that I think so oftenwe talk about trauma narratives
and Indigenous victimized. But,yeah, there's also so much space
and an importance of leaninginto the ways these stories talk
(42:41):
about Indigenous agency andabout the resilience of our
cultures and that they're notgoing away, and we're still here
and we still have stories totell.
Julie McIsaac (42:56):
It was great to spend that time with Rena. I
found it to be so joyful andmoving and fascinating. And I
also found that there was aconnection with something that
Ravi [Jain] shared with us, backin Episode Three, about
encouraging us to see thingsanew. And I'm wondering about,
you know, these works that arenow in the canon that are
historical references we knowthem so well, we know where
(43:18):
they're headed, we know what theending is and who the characters
are but to encourage us toimagine that it's the first
time, that it's 1780 and you'veheard there's this really cool
thing happening in this theatre,and you're showing up there with
your pals, and you'reexperiencing it for the first
time within the context of thesocietal norms and the gender
constructs of the time and allof that. So, I think it's good
(43:41):
for us to remember that advicefrom Ravi and to take it into
this as well as we consider howthose works of the past were
activist.
Robyn Grant-Moran (43:48):
I keep thinking about what would it be
like to see Figaro for the firsttime with the censorship issues,
how much work had to be done toremove all the offensive bits.
Julie McIsaac (44:06):
And Verdi, as well, as an example of another
composer who had to respond tothat and had to change content
because of censorship. Can youimagine, Robyn, if we heard that
there was this reallyprovocative thing happening down
the street at the opera house,and then suddenly the censors
clamps down and it was no longerhappening? Or we knew that, when
we saw it a week later, it wasgoing to be changed from what
the original intention was?
Like, what would happen if thatwas if that was [inaudible]
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:30):
hear clanking, clanking, angry
clanking on keyboards.
Julie McIsaac (44:35):
Better go wild.
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:37):
It would be a buzz.
Julie McIsaac (44:40):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:42):
Yeah, like, how were people responding in
that time like, what was lifelike when they heard this
information? It's so difficultto imagine but that was their
world, that was their norm.
Julie McIsaac (44:57):
Mm hmm. And then the Prisoners' Chorus that Rena
mentioned from Fidelio (45:00):
imagine being the first person to ever
hear that and not knowing thatthat moment was going to come in
the opera.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:07):
And then, like, to all of a sudden have a
woman there singing in thatcontext, when you've always ever
seen heroic numbers sung by men,like
Julie McIsaac (45:20):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:21):
that must have been mind-blowing!
Julie McIsaac (45:23):
I'm wondering, Robyn, for you
something that you've witnessedon the opera stage or that
you've heard that really movedyou to act, if we think about
activism and what that means?
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:34):
Well, short and cheesy answer is opera moves
me to be my best person; itcreates space to look at
difficult subject matter in asafe way, you know? It's removed
from everyday discourse and itis so heightened and so
dramatized that it almostdoesn't seem real.
Julie McIsaac (45:57):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because Beethoven's
part of this conversation byvirtue of Fidelio, and I don't
know, in terms of his ability tohear and his loss of hearing, I
don't know where Fidelio sits onthat spectrum in terms of where
he was at when he composed that.
But just in general, to thinkthat this is someone who
continued to compose as he waslosing his hearing and what he
was able to compose despitethose circumstances, you go,
(46:19):
"Well, if that as possible, whatam I capable of?" And I find
myself thinking about that whenyou say it inspires you to be
your best self, in that we seethese people on stage these
singers, or if we think ofcircus artists, or athletes at
the height of their abilitiesand you go, "Okay, look at what
they've been able to accomplishby virtue of the study, and the
(46:40):
training, and the focus!" And itdoes sort of incite you to think
about "What am i capable of?
What influence can I exert if Iwork harder, or if I try more in
my sphere of influence?"whether that's artistic, whether
that's public service, whetherthat's teachers in the
classroom, who are doing amazingactivist things every day?
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:01):
And the notion that we have these people
who have been studying somethingso specifically for so long, and
that we can all come togetherand work in a coordinated
fashion to make this larger thanlife thing happen really speaks
(47:23):
to the potential and the bestside of people
Julie McIsaac (47:29):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:31):
which may or may not be activistic in nature
but I believe that activism isrooted in wanting the best and
striving for the best. So, it'sa great space for that.
Julie McIsaac (47:50):
Yeah, and challenging the status quo
because if we accept the statusquo, we're saying, "Everything's
okay as it is"
Robyn Grant-Moran (47:56):
Yeah.
Julie McIsaac (47:56):
"Everything is perfect, we've achieved the best
possible outcome." And wehaven't
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:00):
Exactly.
Julie (48:01):
we have some work to do.
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:03):
We always should be striving for the best.
Julie McIsaac (48:06):
And I think about it, too, sometimes when I
reflect on why I like stagingr why I like directing or
reating things is because, forthose two hours of those two-and
a-half hours, you get to explorethe world as you dream it could
be, or as you wish it were. Oyou get to spend that tim
bringing people's attention tsomething that you feel i
important or that you want themto spend some time feeling or
(48:28):
contemplating. And then with theidea that if we can do it on
stage for two hours, maybe thattwo hours becomes three hours in
someone's life, or four hours, ofive hours, or a day, a week t
at they're still thinkingnd living in that way
or contemplating those things.
nd then eventually, it takes ovr!
Robyn Grant-Moran (48:44):
I'm immediately reminded of our
conversation with CherieDimaline when talking about
speculative fiction and theprevalence of it with Indigenous
authors, and how it's a spacewhere you can explore life
without the colonial gaze. And Imean, of course, in opera in
(49:10):
any art that applies, like,it's space to explore life
without something that'suncomfortable, "What would life
look like if we all strive forour best selves, if government
rule were different, if socialnorms were different?"
Julie McIsaac (49:30):
And if we all had the emotional experience of
something so rather thanreading a headline in a
newspaper or hearing aboutsomething that's happened when
we receive it in an operaticcontext through an aria. I'm
thinking about the mother's ariafrom Missing: she's silent in a
lot of the early staging or youhear her keening, but it's in
(49:53):
that moment of aria where shehas that text and she's speaking
about the birth of her daughterwho is now gone, and she's
expressing her grief but, also,what I think I find most
impactful it's on an emotionallevel, so it's hard to put words
to it is her love, and thatreminds me of Cherie as well,
who said, like, "Theresponsibility, what we're
carrying is love," and with allthat complexity and that's the
(50:17):
big thing right now is, "What isit like to carry that love in
Robyn Grant-Moran (50:22):
So, speaking of love, that makes me wonder,
these times?"
dear audience listeners (50:27):
what are your thoughts on activism
and opera? What have you seen?
What do you love what makes youstrive to be a better person?
These are things we want to knowfrom you.
Julie McIsaac (50:42):
So either tag us on social @CanadianOpera, or
email us at audiences@coc.ca. Wecertainly appreciate all the
feedback that we've received sofar and the reviews that you've
left on Apple Podcasts, so keepthose coming. But, as Robyn
mentioned, as we get into theseideas, we'd love to hear how
they're sitting with you andwhat responses you might have in
relationship to them.
Robyn Grant-Moran (51:03):
We recently received a message from COC
subscriber Mary about EpisodeFive, with Cherie Dimaline and
Ian Cusson, and we really wantto share this with you.
Julie McIsaac (51:14):
Shall I read it out?
Robyn Grant-Moran (51:15):
Yes, please.
Julie McIsaac (51:17):
"As a relative newcomer to opera, I haven't
seen them all and have tended toavoid the newer creations.
However, the artists you spoketo this time made me realize
that the canon isn't andshouldn't be static; there is a
responsibility to develop acanon that will go forward for
future listeners. A repertoireis always of the past, and the
bigger it is, the more we candraw from to illuminate the
(51:38):
present."
Robyn Grant-Moran (51:39):
Thanks, Mary!
Julie McIsaac (51:41):
We've had so much great feedback already from many
of you and know you might havesome burning questions about
what you've heard on thispodcast or about opera in
general. So, we are dedicating awhole episode on March 30 to
questions from you, ourlisteners.
Robyn Grant-Moran (51:54):
To have your questions featured on the show,
send us an email ataudiences@coc.ca, tag us on
social @CanadianOpera, or emailus a voice memo you can find
instructions for thatcoc.ca/KeyChange.
Julie McIsaac (52:11):
And you can ask us anything. There is no
question too weird, too obvious,or too complex.
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:17):
And if we don't know the answer, we'll
find someone who does.
Julie McIsaac (52:20):
We don't necessarily have all the
answers, we're still learningall the time.
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:24):
One thing I've always wondered about is
wigs and shoes. With wigs (52:26):
who makes them, who takes care of
them? And shoes (52:30):
how do you choose them? What's good for the
stage?
Julie McIsaac (52:34):
Yeah, so many great questions! So, send those
our way before March 5, and thenhopefully we'll get to them in
our episode on March 30. Wecouldn't squeeze into this
episode everything from ourinterview with Rena but, if
you're a COC subscriber, you canhear more.
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:49):
So, make sure to watch for the link in your
supporter newsletter.
Julie McIsaac (52:52):
And next time we'll be chatting with the
disruptor/conductor DanieBartholomew-Poyser. Stay tuned
Robyn Grant-Moran (52:59):
See you next time.
Be the first to find out aboutfree events and concerts from
the COC by signing up for ourmonthly eOpera newsletter at
coc.ca/eOpera.
Julie McIsaac (53:19):
Thank you to all of our supporters for making Key
Change possible. This week, wewant to especially thank every
COC member, subscriber, anddonor for coming on this journey
with us as we explore new waysto share opera's unique power.
Robyn Grant-Moran (53:33):
So to make sure you don't miss an episode,
subscribe to Key Change whereveryou get your podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (53:40):
Key Change is produced by the Canadian Opera
Company and hosted by RobynGrant-Moran and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (53:46):
To learn more about today's guests and see the
show notes, please visit ourwebsite at coc.ca/KeyChange.
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