March 2, 2021 • 47 mins
Transcending the boundaries of artistic disciplines, actor/director/dancer/choreographer Michael Greyeyes provides fascinating insights into his multi-disciplinary career on stage and screen, how he has pursued his creative passions and the joy of collaboration. Join Michael in conversation with Key Change co-hosts Robyn Grant-Moran and Julie McIsaac.
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Julie McIsaac (00:00):
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to Key Change (00:00):
A COC Podcast, where we explore
everything about opera from afresh perspective.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:18):
We're your hosts, Robyn Grant-Moran
Julie McIsaac (00:21):
and Julie McIsaac. We have a fantastic
conversation for you in EpisodeNine and, before we get to it,
we wanted to remind you thatthere's still time to get in
your questions for our veryspecial episode on March 30th.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:33):
This is your chance to ask us anything. What
have you always wanted to knowabout opera but didn't know who
to ask? Email us ataudiences@coc.ca.
Julie McIsaac (00:45):
Yeah! You can send us an email, a Facebook or
Twitter comment, or even send usa voice message to be featured
on the show. For moreinformation on that, you can
visit coc.ca/KeyChange.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:56):
One question we had was "why aren't there
more operas in English?"
Julie McIsaac (01:00):
Excellent question! I think about that,
too, in terms of all thelanguages in the past, present
and potentially future thatopera could be sung in. So, we
will answer that question foryou.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:10):
It's going to be such a fun episode. We can't
wait to hear from you.
Julie McIsaac (01:24):
I'm very excited for our audience to hear from
our next guest, MichaelGreyeyes. One of the things I
love about doing this podcast isthat we can set out to discuss
one thing, but then it opens thedoors to so many stories and
experiences beyond what we couldhave expected. That's exactly
what happened with our chat withMichael Greyeyes.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:43):
So, you might know Michael from his
appearances on such Hollywoodfilms and TV shows as True
Detective on HBO, Woman WalksAhead with Jessica Chastain,
Fear the Walking Dead, andTerrence Malick's The New World.
But he's also made a huge impacton the Canadian theatre and
dance worlds (02:02):
he was the first Indigenous student accepted into
the National Ballet School ofCanada; he's the Founding
Artistic Director of SignalTheatre, an interdisciplinary
theatre company that blendsdance, opera, music design and
the spoken word. I met Michaelfirst when he and Circle of
Artists member Cole Alvis wereco-directing Pimooteewin and
(02:25):
Gllbrtnit for Soundstreams.
They received a Dora Awardnomination for Outstanding
Direction of that production.
Julie McIsaac (02:32):
It's fascinating to hear what Michael himself
finds compelling about artisticexperiences, and how he plays
with time and space in his work.
We'll also hear how he came tolove and embrace opera as part
of his multidisciplinary career.
Robyn Grant-Moran (02:56):
Hello, Michael. Thank you for joining
us today.
Michael Greyeyes (02:59):
Thank you very much.
Robyn Grant-Moran (03:01):
You have a lengthy list of accomplishments
on both stage and screen. Canyou tell us about how opera came
to be part of your artisticpractice?
Michael Greyeyes (03:09):
It was a number of years ago, actually,
that I did a CBC documentary.
And I remember in the pressrelease, the person writing it
said I had a "restlesscreativity," and I think that
explains why I have worked
across discipline (03:27):
I'm always fascinated in storytelling, in
performance and, of course,that's found different outlets.
Certainly my work as an actor isprominent but I'm extremely
proud of the work I do as adirector, as a theatre artist.
So, opera seemed to be a naturaloutgrowth of my theatre training
and background (03:53):
I began in performing arts as a classical
ballet dancer with the NationalBallet of Canada and with the
company of Eliot Feld in NewYork City so, concert dance,
of course, is like home base tome. Those worlds are populated
by music; music is integral toour understanding of
(04:17):
contemporary dance. So, I wasfortunate to grow up with the
sound of live music in thestudio every day classical
music, contemporary music so,when the opportunity came to
work as a choreographer, I wasalways attracted to voice, I was
(04:37):
always attracted to choralmusic, Bach has always been a
personal favorite of mine.
Something's always drawn me tomusic. My first experiences with
opera began at the NationalBallet School, where I was a
(05:09):
student. We had a really awonderful music program. So, our
core study included, you know,major works and we began
studying opera. I remember verykeenly studying Henry Purcell
of all things! but I rememberI just I loved the music! So it
was in school that I wasintroduced to this music. You
(05:31):
know, at that time, I hadn'tencountered many dance works
that also employed voice but,really, my interest was kindled
(05:55):
in school. And I remember myfirst tour of Germany with the
National Ballet. I remember wewere somewhere in Berlin or
Dusseldorf or somewhere, and CDtechnology had just emerged, and
the first CDs I bought wereopera works because I was like,
(06:17):
"This is fantastic newtechnology," and "I want to get
the best recordings Got yourgramophone," all of that. And,
so, opera has always had a placein my loves. When Lawrence
Cherney, the Artistic Directorof Soundstreams, came to me in,
gosh, it was the early 90s, webegan a relationship that is one
(06:42):
of my most appreciated workingrelationships in the arts in
Canada. We began by reworking adance work that his company had
produced and it was, gosh, maybeabout a decade later that
Lawrence came to me with an ideaand he said, "Listen, I've
(07:05):
created the beginnings of arelationship between a Canadian
composer Melissa Hui andlibrettist/author/playwright
Tomson Highway, and we wanted toknow if you would be interested
in leading an exploration ofthis oratorio" at that time it
(07:27):
was an oratorio, "a non-stagedmusic concert." And I, of
course, jumped at theopportunity. So, we began
working on Pimooteewin, which,of course, is the opera work
or the music drama, if you willthat came out of that early
conversation. So, really, it wasLawrence Cherney that turned my
(07:50):
love of opera and choral musicinto something that I began to
tackle as a creative artist.
Robyn Grant-Moran (08:04):
You co-directed with Cole Alvis,
remounting that first Creeopera. I was wondering: how did
you come to be involved with itthe second time around?
Michael Greyeyes (08:14):
Cole is a tremendous collaborator and
emerging director, and I was sopleased to work with Cole as a
co-director, as a co-creator ofTwo Odysseys, which is the work
that emerged. When we createdPimooteewin, I explained to
(08:36):
Lawrence, I said, "There'sinherent staging in the
libretto." At the time, wedidn't know if we'd be using
surtitles, so, I suggested, Isaid, "Why don't we
theatricalize some of thisaction?" and Lawrence was
excited by that idea. Of course,it took off to become, at his
premiere in 2008, a semi-stagedwork with dancers as well as,
(09:00):
you know, singers behind musicstands but also involved in the
action, you know, peripherally.
When we expanded it to tour inNorthern Ontario and Quebec two
years later, we did away withthe music stands altogether and
it emerged as a fully formedmusic drama. Inherent in that
journey of discovery, we beganto really wonder about the world
(09:22):
that Tomson had created throughhis libretto, this land of the
dead the action of Pimooteewintakes place in the land of the
dead and is based on a Tricksterstory about how Trickster and
his friend Misigoo (the Eagle),you know, we're feeling very
lonely for the departed, thepeople who had made their
journey. Trickster decided to goto the land of the dead and
(09:43):
transgressed sort of theseuniversal barriers and bring
back the dead to the land of theliving so he wouldn't miss them.
Of course, that resulted incatastrophe as many stories
often do, and we learn a lessonthe audience, the listener
learns a lesson about why thesetwo worlds can never meet. So,
(10:08):
it was a provocative libretto,beautiful, and we began to
imagine almost from the momentwe staged that second tour
Lawrence and I began talkingabout a companion work because,
at the time, I think the musicis approximately 30 minutes
long, and it doesn't reallysupport a full-evening work. As
(10:31):
a marvelous producer, Lawrencesaid, "Well, what about a
companion work? Something builtalong the same lines using the
same musicians, eight musicians;a chorus of, you know, 12 to 16;
two soloists," and I said, "I'mon board because I think the
idea of this land of the deadand the characters around it
(10:53):
deserve further exploration. So,that began again, another nearly
a decade-long journey to createGllbrtnit, which, of course,
is the first Sami-language operawork as a corollary to
Pimooteewin, and that's where webrought Cole on board to begin
(11:15):
our examination and connection.
Cole and I, really, withLawrence and our cast began this
exploration of how these twoworks, built on the same
foundation, connect and why theymust be seen together. So,
(11:36):
that's where the journey, sortof, ended up when we finally
staged Two Odysseys, which isPimooteewin and Gllbrtnit as
a unified work.
Robyn Grant-Moran (11:46):
I was fortunate enough to play
imposter Rebecca Cuddy for aweek in the Gllbrtnit
workshop period. So, I got toknow that piece of work very
intimately and it was anincredible week of my life,
getting to know the librettistRawdna [Carita Eira], and I got
(12:09):
to work with you one day, andworking with Cole the rest of
the time. And how the twostories really fit so
beautifully together.
Julie McIsaac (12:21):
Yeah, what you were saying has me curious,
Michael, about themultidisciplinary approach that
you take in your work (12:27):
what is it about that multidisciplinary,
combinatory approach that feelsimportant to you or natural to
you?
Michael Greyeyes (12:36):
I've always looked at opera as an integrated
work. You know, it's like theterm you know, when we describe
Wagner's music dramas, you know,"Gesamtkunstwerk," right?
"Gesamtkunstwerk" meaning "alltogether work." So, in
Indigenous art expression, wedon't look at disciplines as
(12:58):
being a sort of a necessarydelineator or descriptive to the
way an artist worked. You know,we have wonderful dancers who
are singers, we have singers whoare storytellers, we have
writers who are actors. So,within the Indigenous arts
context, we've always beenmaking "all together artworks."
(13:20):
So, opera seemed the naturalWestern form to integrate our
performance ontologies, ourapproach to storytelling. So, I
think I was attracted to operafor that because it seemed to
(13:40):
already encompass so much.
Julie McIsaac (13:42):
And it's, many of the folks that we've had on the
podcast have talked about thephysical reactions that they
have listening to opera, orfeeling like they're suspended
in time and talking about thephysiology of that experience
as both a performer or anaudience member and I'm
curious (13:58):
how does opera or any kind of live performance elicit
similar reactions in you? Like,how do you experience it in your
body?
Michael Greyeyes (14:06):
Oh, yeah.
Well, music is a physical artform. I mean, when the bow hits
the string, it creates avibration of air, and that
vibration travels through space,you know, entering your ear,
hitting your skin, hitting yourbody and, you know, your ear
(14:29):
does its magic and then, all ofa sudden, this electrical
impulse is sent to your brainand, you know, your body moves,
you know. Who among us hasn'theard something irresistible and
your body simply moves, so themusic is moving you already. So,
(14:49):
I've always felt music is aphysical act yes, it's aural,
of course, that we listen to it.
Many artists that I truly admiretalk about the visceral
experience of art (15:03):
I look at the painter Francis Bacon and he
said, "I paint so that peoplefeel and see the way I do." So,
there are distortions to thework that he creates, there are
distortions in the human form,so that we experience viscerally
(15:24):
through exaggeration, through atheatricalization of, you know,
something an object, asubject, a representation by
distorting it, it becomessomething that we cannot react
to simply; we can't just absorbit, it becomes something that
(15:44):
arrests us, that provokes us.
So, I look at art that way, Ilook at staging that way. I say,
"How can we stage something sothat the audience understands it
the way we want to understandit?" So, for example, we react
to stillness in a certain way.
So, I think it's important whenwe're staging things that, you
(16:07):
know, that we allow the spacesof a stage work to act upon. We
feel different, we experiencestillness, differently. Silence
is not the absence of sound; itis a sound. And we experienced
silence. So, you know, I'm verycognizant of these sort of
(16:33):
physical signals that weexperience through music, and my
job, you know, as a collaboratorin the work, is to help distort,
provoke, exaggerate what we'reseeing or experiencing in order
for the audience to understandthe work more and more
(16:56):
explicitly. And I think that themanipulations of time and space
are crucial in that work.
Julie McIsaac (17:05):
And I'm curious as to when you watch your
colleagues work or otherdirectors work, are you
conscious of how you approachthings differently due to your
relationship with your physicalbody, as a dancer and as a
choreographer? Are you consciousof ways that you enter into the
work whether that's on a filmset or in a theatre or opera
rehearsal studio, that is uniquedue to that background that you
(17:26):
bring?
Michael Greyeyes (17:28):
I hope so.
When I look at an actor's work,whether it's on stage or on
film, I'm always looking at the
how does that person stand, whatdid they do, what did they
physically do? Because we arewhat we do not what we say
for the most part. You know,when I look at work, I'm always
looking at the physicalmanifestation of it. I'm a big
(17:51):
admirer of the work of RossManson and Kate Alton, and very
often their works you know,she's a choreographer and very
often her works have a beautifulphysical expression, you know,
something tangible that we cansee, that we can feel not only
just what we've heard or whatwe've seen in terms of, you
(18:12):
know, stenography or text oractor movement but there's
something truly physicallytangible about the work that
leaves us with, again, avisceral understanding of what
they're trying to create. Ithink that's essential,
especially as much of our workbecomes more and more visual.
Julie McIsaac (18:34):
Yeah. And do you have a recollection, Michael, of
an experience that you had inwatching a film or being in a
theatre where something impactedyou viscerally in that way?
Michael Greyeyes (18:44):
Hmm, yeah, I was watching a clip Well, I'm a
tremendous fan of [Tanztheater]Wuppertal and the work of Pina
Bausch. You know, her works aredurational, right? So, there's a
willingness on the part of theaudience to participate in the
(19:06):
durational experience of theselonger dance dramas. You know,
the Italian director cataloocheecreated this incredible work and
there were two, sort of, like,early humans, like, Neanderthals
or early Homo sapiens and theywere behind a scrim, and we
(19:27):
could just see them in thebackground, sort of, in this dim
light. And the male came backinto their cave or whatever,
wherever they were resting, andthey had sex you know, we
could see them in thebackground, sort of, dimly lit
and they were clearly having sexand then he kind of just
(19:51):
rolled away and stopped movingand she stood up and she moved
downstage towards this scrim,and I don't know what she was
working with but there was somekind of mud or it was blood or
something, and she startedpainting on the scrim. I'll
never forget that moment (20:15):
it's because it's the birth of
painting to me, that was thebirth of painting, cave painting
and it came out of a woman'sresponse to, you know, this
momentary, you know, connectionwith this man, whether he was
part of her community or thatwas her partner or whatever. But
(20:36):
painting was born out of thatintimate moment. And, so, yeah,
when things like that happen,you know, I'll never forget that
moment.
Robyn Grant-Moran (20:49):
The idea of feeling things as an audience
member feeling the airwaves,the pressure of the vibrations
of the sound has me veryreminiscent for theatre and
opera, and I hope we get to goback soon. But when we do, I'm
wondering (21:09):
what do you hope audience members take with them
when they leave after one ofyour productions?
Michael Greyeyes (21:17):
Yeah, I think as we sit here at the God, is
it the middle of the pandemic?
I'm afraid that it is, actuallyand we've lost the capacity to
gather and to have meaningfulexchanges as groups, I long for,
you know, that summer and thefall when we mounted that work.
(21:39):
It will return, people gatherand we've always gathered
we've gathered from timeimmemorial I hardly think this
will count as anything otherthan a blip in our collective
history of performing for eachother in space, [the] same
(22:00):
space. So, I'm hopeful that aswe walk out of this global
pandemic, we'll recognize theveracity of the theatrical
expression, that there's anephemerality to this moment, we
(22:24):
are here on this night, in thisspace, in this city, and this
thing only can exist now itcan only exist between us and
then the performance will end,and we'll walk away, we'll get
into the cabs, we'll get intoour Ubers, we'll take the
(22:45):
subway, we'll leave. There maybe no recording, we'll never be
able to Zoom it, we'll never beable to watch it on, you know,
the streaming channels; it willonly exist for us for that small
group of humans gathering. And,so, that's where I recognize the
(23:06):
power; the power is "How do wefeel? How do we physically
feel?" I think after nearly, youknow, eight months of Zoom
meetings, I am excited to sit ata table with other people and
drink that bad coffee, and eatthe stale danishes, and have
that awful light, you knowit's all something I can feel
(23:32):
and I miss desperately. And, youknow, the uncomfortable chairs
and, you know, falling asleep,you know, at the four-hour mark.
You know, it's all something Ithink we'll really appreciate
when we get back to it.
Julie McIsaac (23:49):
Well, and in this in-between time that we're in
right now, what projects do youfind yourself working on, and
where might our listeners seeyou or hear you next?
Michael Greyeyes (23:59):
Well, at the moment Signal Theatre is
developing a small project I'mnot directly involved with it;
we're acting more as producerswith some wonderful artists. But
currently my focus is inperformance and it has been for
the past year. I was veryfortunate during COVID to be
working in Los Angeles for aboutalmost five months, working on a
(24:22):
new television series calledRutherford Falls. Rutherford
Falls is a new half-hour comedyfrom Sierra Teller Ornelas, a
Navajo writer and producer, EdHelms and Mike Schur from The
Office, and The Good Place,Parks and Recreation. So, this
is a you know, really high levelnew series. I'm one of the
(24:48):
principal actors in the work,[it] will be coming to Peacock,
which is NBC's streaming servicein late March/early April
please watch for it, I thinkit's a landmark work. We've had
the largest writers room in thehistory of network television
that was Native. So, we were 50%Native writers on the show,
(25:10):
which is an industry first. AndI've also got Wild Indian coming
out very soon. It's a featurefilm that I lead that is in
competition at this year'sSundance Film Festival.
Julie McIsaac (25:22):
Fantastic. And we'll put some information in
the show notes for listeners,and we'll be keeping an eye and
ear out for all of that.
I'm very excited, really lookingforward to all those projects
that Michael has in the works.
They all sound fascinating andI'm just really hungry for that
content. I can't wait!
Robyn Grant-Moran (25:42):
Yeah, the reviews for a Wild Indian at the
Sundance Film Festival arebangin'. He's everywhere right
now. Yeah, I actually haven'tgonna be completely transparent
here I haven't read any of thereviews, I just have read that
they've been positive, because Idon't want to be tainted by
(26:06):
other critics' ideas of whatthey're seeing. Like, I don't
want that colouring myexperience with it.
Julie McIsaac (26:13):
What really struck you, Robyn? What are some
of your takeaways or things thatyou're left pondering after our
conversation with him?
Robyn Grant-Moran (26:21):
The visceral nature of art and how it's not
just "I'm seeing this thing onstage and I'm hearing this
thing, but I'm physically beingimpacted by the vibrations of
the sound coming from theinstruments, the sound coming
from the singers." And I can'tremember if he mentioned this or
(26:46):
I just went there in my head,but the natural extension of the
movement of the performers. Likethat is shifting airspace and it
might not be anything like,when you hear an orchestra, you
feel the orchestra. But I feel,like, in live performance, even
just having people movingonstage impacts your physicality
(27:09):
while you're sitting andwatching.
Julie McIsaac (27:11):
And, likewise, what he was telling us about
stillness, because if you usemovement mindfully or to create
a certain impact or to elicit acertain reaction, then,
likewise, that stillness can beequally compelling, and, I
think, physically in our bodies,we register stillness, or as
humans as animals, thatstillness means something to us.
So, if there's been a lot ofmovement and then suddenly
(27:32):
there's stillness, that, like,"animal-self" in you goes, "Huh,
what's happening?" You're, like,on alert or you're aware that
something's shifting, somethingexciting is happening. It pulls
your focus in a good way.
Robyn Grant-Moran (27:43):
Yeah, like, not everything has to be filled
with movement and with sound,and the spaces in between.
Julie McIsaac (27:52):
Now I'm thinking about composers who use silence
really meaningfully or there'sbeen like a wall of sound
throughout almost the entireopera, and then near that end of
Act Four, there's this momentwhere it's completely silent,
and then the character speakssomething instead of singing
something like the very end of[La] Bohme, where Mim has died.
(28:44):
Sorry, spoiler alert I shouldhave said that first!
Robyn Grant-Moran (28:48):
I don't know if our audiences can handle
that, Julie. I mean, it onlycame out how many years ago?
Julie McIsaac (29:00):
But I do find, like, the fact that he was
drawing these corollaries orlike you said, I don't know if
he said it or if it's someconnection I started to make in
my head, but about what'shappening physically and then
for us to think about what doesthat mean musically, or what are
the musical equivalent to themusical sonic corollaries of
what he's talking about?
Robyn Grant-Moran (29:16):
His allusions to Francis Bacon and that quote,
"I paint so people see and feelthe way I do," was, like, we get
on stage to share ideas, toshare feelings. I don't know it
just all oh, it was sodelicious!
Julie McIsaac (29:35):
Yeah. And two things that came to the fore for
me there was one being as adirector or creator, how you
feel like you're on this questtoward wanting to invite the
audience into this experience ofseeing the world or experiencing
the world, or the moment, thestory, the character's dilemma
in the way that you feel it, orthe way that you see it. So,
it's this constant questthroughout that creation and
(29:55):
rehearsal process that can berewarding or really frustrating
depending on how close you feellike you're getting to that
goal. And the other thing beingthat when Michael was
describing, you know, themovement of the strings of an
instrument and through air andhow it first I love that he
mentioned your skin like,sound hitting your skin
because I think particularly in,like, Western European operatic
(30:16):
tradition, we can get verycerebral like, on a level of
musical analysis, for example,very intellectual and very up in
our heads in terms of how we'renavigating the material and
it's so good to be reminded,like, "Be in your body. What is
your skin telling you? What isyour skin experiencing?" Because
that is as important, as centralto the experience as anything
else. And, back in October, wewere able to gather together:
(30:38):
[COC] Composer-in-Residence IanCusson hosted this conversation
called MindBodyMusic, and we hadthese scientists, these
neuroscientists, these peoplewho specialized in physiology
and the workings of the innerear and how that connects with
your brain, and they were ableto talk us through some really
cool stuff. So for anyone who'sinterested in hearing more about
MindBodyMusic on coc.ca. I loveall the threads of connections,
(31:00):
is basically what I'm saying!
Robyn Grant-Moran (31:03):
That was a great conversation and, yeah,
it's exactly what Michael wastalking about. Like, I don't
know about you but one of thereasons I love romantic opera
like, why I love Strauss andWagner so much is because of
that feeling when the orchestrastarts, when the overture
(31:26):
begins, and you just get hit,like, you can physically feel it
in a way that you can't Imean, I don't; I shouldn't say
you can't, it's not for me todecide your experience but I
don't get that from Baroqueopera because the orchestra is
smaller, so, you're not gettingphysically walloped by the
(31:48):
sound.
Julie McIsaac (31:59):
And, speaking of Wagner
impressions of what Michaelshared with us like, comparing
the "gesamtkunstwerk" philosophyand, sort of, Indigenous
ideologies around art andcross-disciplinary creation?
Robyn Grant-Moran (32:12):
Well, it's the thing that we've been doing
forever as Indigenous people,you know. There isn't so much of
a separation between thestoryteller and how the story is
told. So, when Wagner was doingthis revolutionary thing of
(32:32):
having this total artwork where,you know, "the composer is the
librettist is the designer isthe is everything," that's,
kind of, really old; he wasn'tdoing anything new for a portion
(32:53):
of the population. But thingsare just the way cultures
evolve; he was bringing it backtogether when it had never
separated,
Julie McIsaac (33:04):
Right. In the city, or the town, the country,
the community, he was a part of,it was seen as this revelatory,
revolutionary idea, whereas,like you're saying, actually,
there's a lot of pre-existingcommunities and practices,
historically.
Robyn Grant-Moran (33:19):
Yes, so, in this weird way, Wagner was, kind
of and I say this painfullyaware of how he's been used of
his opportunistic tendencies, ofhis anti-Semitism he was, kind
(33:39):
of, bringing everything afractured concept of art back
together, that fragmentation ofart where, you know, you have
your director, and yourlibrettist, and your composer,
and your set designer, andthey're all very different
entities.
Julie McIsaac (33:59):
Mm hmm. What really resonated with me is what
Michael was saying, that ourdifferent disciplines don't
necessarily need to delineateus, like, from each other or
from parts of ourselves like,we don't need to feel that those
things are separate and Ifound that really freeing or
liberating, too, because I'vementioned it a few times, often
on the podcast, but I come fromthis background of theatre, and
(34:21):
I've done a lot of theatre as aperformer, creator, director
and, so, sometimes in the operaworld, I feel, like, a bit,
like, "I don't belong" or that"that is something separate that
I shouldn't mention," like,"it's bad to mention that I come
from theatre" or something likeit's a bad word. But it's just
empowering to be reminded that,like [COC General Director]
Perryn [Leech] said, too, inEpisode Six, like, "No one has
(34:43):
all the skills necessary to be aGeneral Director; some people
are gonna be stronger in thisand then they're gonna have to
bring people on board to helpthem with that, and vice versa."
Other people have differentbalances of skill set, so, some
of us might be really strong interms of our German and Italian
language skills, but be lackingin other areas. And, likewise,
some people might be really goodat character analysis or visual
storytelling on stage and needsupport in terms of musical
(35:05):
analysis. So, it's just great tobe reminded that those
delineations don't need to holdus back.
Robyn Grant-Moran (35:12):
We all have our strengths and choosing a
vocation within that, based onour strengths and maybe not
our strengths, maybe ourinterests, maybe your passion,
maybe we fell into it and thenyou get there and you have this
skill set, but you might haveother things to offer and, if
(35:36):
everything's so carefullyseparated out, it can be really
hard to communicate. Like, as atheatre critic, I, kind of, have
to decide, "Do I want to be acritic or an artist?" because
they're two separate skill sets,where ne'er the twain shall
(35:57):
meet; they're seen asoppositional, adversarial rather
than mutually beneficial. Andyou as a director, you might
have a really great skill setsomewhere else but you can't
employ it because you're adirector, and directors don't do
(36:19):
that and we have everything soclearly boxed off. So you're
only bringing part of yourself.
Maybe I'm putting too much onthe boundaries and the
classifications that we giveourselves and each other.
Julie McIsaac (36:35):
Well, and coming back to your own experiences and
your own identity as anartist/critic, Robyn: what can
you share with us about havingbeen in the rehearsal hall, in
the room with Michael and Cole,when that Soundsstreams project
was being developed, beingrehearsed?
It was a really collaborativeplace to be like, strikingly
(36:56):
collaborative. It felt likeeverybody had a voice and
singers could if there wassomething that seemed weird in
the choreography or that justwasn't working that they had
the space to vocalize that. Orif someone wanted to add some
(37:19):
physicality, that there wasspace to bring that idea
forward, and that we were alltaking care of this creation
together. And I wasn't actuallyin that production; I was
filling in for a week forRebecca Cuddy, who is also a
(37:43):
[COC] Circle of Artists memberhi, Rebecca! They had some other
contract for that week ofrehearsals, and, so, I was
filling in for them. And evenwithin that, I felt like I was a
valued member of the cast by theother cast members by Cole, by
(38:09):
Michael. And my performanceexperience is limited but, from
what I've had, it was a verymeaningful experience. I usually
feel like I'm showing up anddoing a job that I'm not part of
it. The thing that I wasn'tactually a part of, I felt more
(38:32):
a part ofOh, that's interesting!
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:36):
than things that I have been a part of.
Julie McIsaac (38:38):
Hmm.
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:40):
And I think that just really speaks to the
culture and the ethos around howproductions are structured with
Michael and Cole.
Julie McIsaac (38:53):
And so glad you brought that up, because it
reminds us that the idea ofinclusion and someone being
included is much more complexand nuanced than their name
being listed in the program, andbeing credited for a particular
contribution, that there's a lotof other things that go into
someone feeling like they'repart of the collaboration and
that they're included and theirvoice is heard.
Robyn Grant-Moran (39:13):
Yeah! It's no secret that mainstream opera,
mainstream theater is highlyhierarchical, and it makes sense
that it is (39:26):
you have tons of moving parts, you have to have
things organized. Like, I getit! But then we attach things to
hierarchy that maybe doesn'tneed to be there and it felt
(39:46):
like all the weight of ahierarchy was gone.
Julie McIsaac (39:52):
And what was it like with Michael in the room?
Like, given his background as adancer and a choreographer, I'm
curious about how that impacted,like, your interactions with him
or what how that read to you?
Robyn Grant-Moran (40:05):
One day he was directing a scene that had a
fair amount of movement in it,and he came down and went from
we were divided up into groupsand he went to each group, spoke
to everybody, and just the wayhe moved through the space, he
(40:27):
had this way of expressingexactly what he wanted with his
whole being not just hiswords, not just saying, "You
should do this. Try it thisway," he would physically do it.
So, it was very clear what hewanted but it was also
incredibly inviting, and safe,and warm.
(40:48):
Canadian theatre director, KimCollier, who's also worked in
opera as well, I've seen her dothis thing where she'll take on
the emotional reality of thecharacter's situation. So, you
see her, sort of, testing anidea and physically, like,
embodying the idea is one thing,but she'll do this thing where
she, like, emotionally entersthe moment and the character's
perspective, and point of view,and emotional world, and you'll
(41:09):
see her do it like, you'll seeit come over her, you'll see her
sink into it and, so, shetests it, she tries out that
reality, and then she'll comeout of it and, like, then offer
you the direction or offer youthe observation. And it's really
beautiful to witness. I reallylove those directors who go
there, whether that's youremotion alongside you, so they
can, like, report back from thefield and tell you what they
(41:30):
discovered.
It makes it so much easier to get to what
they're looking for, whenthey're auditing it with you.
Julie McIsaac (41:44):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (41:45):
Like it makes it easier to get there yourself.
Julie McIsaac (41:48):
Totally, totally.
And of the projects that Michaelshared with us, of the things
he's got upcoming okay, Wild
Indian. Rutherford Falls (41:55):
which one are you most excited to see
and why?
Robyn Grant-Moran (42:02):
Yes, I can't decide. Honestly, I want to see
them both. What about you?
Julie McIsaac (42:10):
Yeah, no, ditto! I did a little bit of reading
about Wild Indian and then Istopped myself because typically
if I go see previews in thecinema so before something I'm
seeing if it starts to lookgood, I just close my eyes and,
like, cover my ears and I'mlike, "It already looks so good.
I don't want to know anymore. Ijust want to go and see it and
be surprised and moved." Andthat's how I felt reading about
Wild Indian. So, after a fewsentences I thought, "Julie,
(42:30):
stop reading. Just go see itwhen it comes out because it
sounds phenomenal." Can't wait.
And then Rutherford Falls (42:33):
I was reading a little bit about that
and what really struck me isthat Rena shared something with
us when we chatted with her in aprevious [episode] Rena
Roussin, musicologist we askedher like, "What's your dream
project?" and she said she'dlove to see an Indigenous
comedy. And from the readingI've been doing about Rutherford
Falls is there is comedicelements to it like, some of
(42:53):
the people in the writers roomare comics and, so, it's
exciting to see what that mightyield in terms of themes and a
lot of Indigenous writers andperformers, and yet there's
those comedic elements.
So,really looking forward tothat.
Robyn Grant-Moran (43:08):
Yeah, that's a really good point. We talk a
lot about stuff like traumastories and, like, Indigenous
people (43:17):
were all different, of course; we're not a monolith.
But by and large, we're funnypeople. Like, to survive and
start thriving in this world,you have to be funny, you have
to be able to laugh at stuffthat is really important and, I
(43:41):
think, a thing that gets misseda lot of the time. So, that does
put Rutherford Falls a littlebit maybe not ahead but I'm
thinking about it a little bitdifferently right now
Julie McIsaac (43:54):
Cool.
Robyn Grant-Moran (43:54):
and made prioritizing differently.
Julie McIsaac (43:58):
Well, very exciting to see all these things
in store and to celebrate likewe did when we were chatting
with Ian and Cherie [Dimaline]about these new stories being
told, and the agency of theseIndigenous storytellers and the
wealth of creativity that'shappening.
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:12):
And I'm really excited for everything
coming up and what the futureholds for us, for other BIPOC
artists, for all the storiesthey get to be told on people's
own terms.
Julie McIsaac (44:35):
It was great hearing from Michael about those
artistic experiences that evokesuch a visceral reaction. I know
I've had those moments and,Robyn, you've mentioned some of
yours and, audience, we want tohear from you, we want to know
yours. So, let us know in anemail, send that to
audiences@coc.ca or send us amessage on social media.
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:56):
We also want to hear your questions about
opera for our special episode onMarch 30.
Julie McIsaac (45:02):
One thing I've always wanted to know about was,
I guess, related to thephysiology of voice types like
a countertenor, that very highvoice what is it about them
physically or about the biologyof their vocal folds, maybe,
that makes them suited tosinging in that way?
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:28):
What makes a high bright voice versus a low
voice, or a robust voice versusa reedier voice? Send us your
questions by March 5, and if wecan't answer them, we'll find
someone who can.
Julie McIsaac (45:41):
And if you're a COC subscriber or member, you
have access to exclusive bonuscontent and extended interviews.
Michael talks with us about hisgreatest artistic influences,
who we should be watching for inthe future, and so much more. So
stay tuned.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:55):
Join us next time. We're getting into a topic
that's very ne (45:58):
opera criticism.
Julie McIsaac (46:01):
There's lots to unpack with that and I can't
wait.
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:04):
Me too.
Thanks for joining us.
Julie McIsaac (46:07):
See you next time.
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:14):
Be the first to find out about free events
and concerts from the COC bysigning up for our monthly
eOpera newsletter atcoc.ca/eOpera.
Julie McIsaac (46:26):
Thank you to all of our supporters for making Key
Change possible. This week, wewant to especially thank every
COC member, subscriber, anddonor for coming on this journey
with us as we explore new waysto share opera's unique power.
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:41):
So to make sure you don't miss an episode,
subscribe to Key Change whereveryou get your podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (46:47):
Key Change is produced by the Canadian Opera
Company and hosted by RobynGrant-Moran and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:54):
To learn more about today's guests and see the
show notes, please visit ourwebsite at coc.ca/KeyChange
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to Key Change (00:00):
A COC Podcast, where we explore
everything about opera from afresh perspective.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:18):
We're your hosts, Robyn Grant-Moran
Julie McIsaac (00:21):
and Julie McIsaac. We have a fantastic
conversation for you in EpisodeNine and, before we get to it,
we wanted to remind you thatthere's still time to get in
your questions for our veryspecial episode on March 30th.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:33):
This is your chance to ask us anything. What
have you always wanted to knowabout opera but didn't know who
to ask? Email us ataudiences@coc.ca.
Julie McIsaac (00:45):
Yeah! You can send us an email, a Facebook or
Twitter comment, or even send usa voice message to be featured
on the show. For moreinformation on that, you can
visit coc.ca/KeyChange.
Robyn Grant-Moran (00:56):
One question we had was "why aren't there
more operas in English?"
Julie McIsaac (01:00):
Excellent question! I think about that,
too, in terms of all thelanguages in the past, present
and potentially future thatopera could be sung in. So, we
will answer that question foryou.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:10):
It's going to be such a fun episode. We can't
wait to hear from you.
Julie McIsaac (01:24):
I'm very excited for our audience to hear from
our next guest, MichaelGreyeyes. One of the things I
love about doing this podcast isthat we can set out to discuss
one thing, but then it opens thedoors to so many stories and
experiences beyond what we couldhave expected. That's exactly
what happened with our chat withMichael Greyeyes.
Robyn Grant-Moran (01:43):
So, you might know Michael from his
appearances on such Hollywoodfilms and TV shows as True
Detective on HBO, Woman WalksAhead with Jessica Chastain,
Fear the Walking Dead, andTerrence Malick's The New World.
But he's also made a huge impacton the Canadian theatre and
dance worlds (02:02):
he was the first Indigenous student accepted into
the National Ballet School ofCanada; he's the Founding
Artistic Director of SignalTheatre, an interdisciplinary
theatre company that blendsdance, opera, music design and
the spoken word. I met Michaelfirst when he and Circle of
Artists member Cole Alvis wereco-directing Pimooteewin and
(02:25):
Gllbrtnit for Soundstreams.
They received a Dora Awardnomination for Outstanding
Direction of that production.
Julie McIsaac (02:32):
It's fascinating to hear what Michael himself
finds compelling about artisticexperiences, and how he plays
with time and space in his work.
We'll also hear how he came tolove and embrace opera as part
of his multidisciplinary career.
Robyn Grant-Moran (02:56):
Hello, Michael. Thank you for joining
us today.
Michael Greyeyes (02:59):
Thank you very much.
Robyn Grant-Moran (03:01):
You have a lengthy list of accomplishments
on both stage and screen. Canyou tell us about how opera came
to be part of your artisticpractice?
Michael Greyeyes (03:09):
It was a number of years ago, actually,
that I did a CBC documentary.
And I remember in the pressrelease, the person writing it
said I had a "restlesscreativity," and I think that
explains why I have worked
across discipline (03:27):
I'm always fascinated in storytelling, in
performance and, of course,that's found different outlets.
Certainly my work as an actor isprominent but I'm extremely
proud of the work I do as adirector, as a theatre artist.
So, opera seemed to be a naturaloutgrowth of my theatre training
and background (03:53):
I began in performing arts as a classical
ballet dancer with the NationalBallet of Canada and with the
company of Eliot Feld in NewYork City so, concert dance,
of course, is like home base tome. Those worlds are populated
by music; music is integral toour understanding of
(04:17):
contemporary dance. So, I wasfortunate to grow up with the
sound of live music in thestudio every day classical
music, contemporary music so,when the opportunity came to
work as a choreographer, I wasalways attracted to voice, I was
(04:37):
always attracted to choralmusic, Bach has always been a
personal favorite of mine.
Something's always drawn me tomusic. My first experiences with
opera began at the NationalBallet School, where I was a
(05:09):
student. We had a really awonderful music program. So, our
core study included, you know,major works and we began
studying opera. I remember verykeenly studying Henry Purcell
of all things! but I rememberI just I loved the music! So it
was in school that I wasintroduced to this music. You
(05:31):
know, at that time, I hadn'tencountered many dance works
that also employed voice but,really, my interest was kindled
(05:55):
in school. And I remember myfirst tour of Germany with the
National Ballet. I remember wewere somewhere in Berlin or
Dusseldorf or somewhere, and CDtechnology had just emerged, and
the first CDs I bought wereopera works because I was like,
(06:17):
"This is fantastic newtechnology," and "I want to get
the best recordings Got yourgramophone," all of that. And,
so, opera has always had a placein my loves. When Lawrence
Cherney, the Artistic Directorof Soundstreams, came to me in,
gosh, it was the early 90s, webegan a relationship that is one
(06:42):
of my most appreciated workingrelationships in the arts in
Canada. We began by reworking adance work that his company had
produced and it was, gosh, maybeabout a decade later that
Lawrence came to me with an ideaand he said, "Listen, I've
(07:05):
created the beginnings of arelationship between a Canadian
composer Melissa Hui andlibrettist/author/playwright
Tomson Highway, and we wanted toknow if you would be interested
in leading an exploration ofthis oratorio" at that time it
(07:27):
was an oratorio, "a non-stagedmusic concert." And I, of
course, jumped at theopportunity. So, we began
working on Pimooteewin, which,of course, is the opera work
or the music drama, if you willthat came out of that early
conversation. So, really, it wasLawrence Cherney that turned my
(07:50):
love of opera and choral musicinto something that I began to
tackle as a creative artist.
Robyn Grant-Moran (08:04):
You co-directed with Cole Alvis,
remounting that first Creeopera. I was wondering: how did
you come to be involved with itthe second time around?
Michael Greyeyes (08:14):
Cole is a tremendous collaborator and
emerging director, and I was sopleased to work with Cole as a
co-director, as a co-creator ofTwo Odysseys, which is the work
that emerged. When we createdPimooteewin, I explained to
(08:36):
Lawrence, I said, "There'sinherent staging in the
libretto." At the time, wedidn't know if we'd be using
surtitles, so, I suggested, Isaid, "Why don't we
theatricalize some of thisaction?" and Lawrence was
excited by that idea. Of course,it took off to become, at his
premiere in 2008, a semi-stagedwork with dancers as well as,
(09:00):
you know, singers behind musicstands but also involved in the
action, you know, peripherally.
When we expanded it to tour inNorthern Ontario and Quebec two
years later, we did away withthe music stands altogether and
it emerged as a fully formedmusic drama. Inherent in that
journey of discovery, we beganto really wonder about the world
(09:22):
that Tomson had created throughhis libretto, this land of the
dead the action of Pimooteewintakes place in the land of the
dead and is based on a Tricksterstory about how Trickster and
his friend Misigoo (the Eagle),you know, we're feeling very
lonely for the departed, thepeople who had made their
journey. Trickster decided to goto the land of the dead and
(09:43):
transgressed sort of theseuniversal barriers and bring
back the dead to the land of theliving so he wouldn't miss them.
Of course, that resulted incatastrophe as many stories
often do, and we learn a lessonthe audience, the listener
learns a lesson about why thesetwo worlds can never meet. So,
(10:08):
it was a provocative libretto,beautiful, and we began to
imagine almost from the momentwe staged that second tour
Lawrence and I began talkingabout a companion work because,
at the time, I think the musicis approximately 30 minutes
long, and it doesn't reallysupport a full-evening work. As
(10:31):
a marvelous producer, Lawrencesaid, "Well, what about a
companion work? Something builtalong the same lines using the
same musicians, eight musicians;a chorus of, you know, 12 to 16;
two soloists," and I said, "I'mon board because I think the
idea of this land of the deadand the characters around it
(10:53):
deserve further exploration. So,that began again, another nearly
a decade-long journey to createGllbrtnit, which, of course,
is the first Sami-language operawork as a corollary to
Pimooteewin, and that's where webrought Cole on board to begin
(11:15):
our examination and connection.
Cole and I, really, withLawrence and our cast began this
exploration of how these twoworks, built on the same
foundation, connect and why theymust be seen together. So,
(11:36):
that's where the journey, sortof, ended up when we finally
staged Two Odysseys, which isPimooteewin and Gllbrtnit as
a unified work.
Robyn Grant-Moran (11:46):
I was fortunate enough to play
imposter Rebecca Cuddy for aweek in the Gllbrtnit
workshop period. So, I got toknow that piece of work very
intimately and it was anincredible week of my life,
getting to know the librettistRawdna [Carita Eira], and I got
(12:09):
to work with you one day, andworking with Cole the rest of
the time. And how the twostories really fit so
beautifully together.
Julie McIsaac (12:21):
Yeah, what you were saying has me curious,
Michael, about themultidisciplinary approach that
you take in your work (12:27):
what is it about that multidisciplinary,
combinatory approach that feelsimportant to you or natural to
you?
Michael Greyeyes (12:36):
I've always looked at opera as an integrated
work. You know, it's like theterm you know, when we describe
Wagner's music dramas, you know,"Gesamtkunstwerk," right?
"Gesamtkunstwerk" meaning "alltogether work." So, in
Indigenous art expression, wedon't look at disciplines as
(12:58):
being a sort of a necessarydelineator or descriptive to the
way an artist worked. You know,we have wonderful dancers who
are singers, we have singers whoare storytellers, we have
writers who are actors. So,within the Indigenous arts
context, we've always beenmaking "all together artworks."
(13:20):
So, opera seemed the naturalWestern form to integrate our
performance ontologies, ourapproach to storytelling. So, I
think I was attracted to operafor that because it seemed to
(13:40):
already encompass so much.
Julie McIsaac (13:42):
And it's, many of the folks that we've had on the
podcast have talked about thephysical reactions that they
have listening to opera, orfeeling like they're suspended
in time and talking about thephysiology of that experience
as both a performer or anaudience member and I'm
curious (13:58):
how does opera or any kind of live performance elicit
similar reactions in you? Like,how do you experience it in your
body?
Michael Greyeyes (14:06):
Oh, yeah.
Well, music is a physical artform. I mean, when the bow hits
the string, it creates avibration of air, and that
vibration travels through space,you know, entering your ear,
hitting your skin, hitting yourbody and, you know, your ear
(14:29):
does its magic and then, all ofa sudden, this electrical
impulse is sent to your brainand, you know, your body moves,
you know. Who among us hasn'theard something irresistible and
your body simply moves, so themusic is moving you already. So,
(14:49):
I've always felt music is aphysical act yes, it's aural,
of course, that we listen to it.
Many artists that I truly admiretalk about the visceral
experience of art (15:03):
I look at the painter Francis Bacon and he
said, "I paint so that peoplefeel and see the way I do." So,
there are distortions to thework that he creates, there are
distortions in the human form,so that we experience viscerally
(15:24):
through exaggeration, through atheatricalization of, you know,
something an object, asubject, a representation by
distorting it, it becomessomething that we cannot react
to simply; we can't just absorbit, it becomes something that
(15:44):
arrests us, that provokes us.
So, I look at art that way, Ilook at staging that way. I say,
"How can we stage something sothat the audience understands it
the way we want to understandit?" So, for example, we react
to stillness in a certain way.
So, I think it's important whenwe're staging things that, you
(16:07):
know, that we allow the spacesof a stage work to act upon. We
feel different, we experiencestillness, differently. Silence
is not the absence of sound; itis a sound. And we experienced
silence. So, you know, I'm verycognizant of these sort of
(16:33):
physical signals that weexperience through music, and my
job, you know, as a collaboratorin the work, is to help distort,
provoke, exaggerate what we'reseeing or experiencing in order
for the audience to understandthe work more and more
(16:56):
explicitly. And I think that themanipulations of time and space
are crucial in that work.
Julie McIsaac (17:05):
And I'm curious as to when you watch your
colleagues work or otherdirectors work, are you
conscious of how you approachthings differently due to your
relationship with your physicalbody, as a dancer and as a
choreographer? Are you consciousof ways that you enter into the
work whether that's on a filmset or in a theatre or opera
rehearsal studio, that is uniquedue to that background that you
(17:26):
bring?
Michael Greyeyes (17:28):
I hope so.
When I look at an actor's work,whether it's on stage or on
film, I'm always looking at the
how does that person stand, whatdid they do, what did they
physically do? Because we arewhat we do not what we say
for the most part. You know,when I look at work, I'm always
looking at the physicalmanifestation of it. I'm a big
(17:51):
admirer of the work of RossManson and Kate Alton, and very
often their works you know,she's a choreographer and very
often her works have a beautifulphysical expression, you know,
something tangible that we cansee, that we can feel not only
just what we've heard or whatwe've seen in terms of, you
(18:12):
know, stenography or text oractor movement but there's
something truly physicallytangible about the work that
leaves us with, again, avisceral understanding of what
they're trying to create. Ithink that's essential,
especially as much of our workbecomes more and more visual.
Julie McIsaac (18:34):
Yeah. And do you have a recollection, Michael, of
an experience that you had inwatching a film or being in a
theatre where something impactedyou viscerally in that way?
Michael Greyeyes (18:44):
Hmm, yeah, I was watching a clip Well, I'm a
tremendous fan of [Tanztheater]Wuppertal and the work of Pina
Bausch. You know, her works aredurational, right? So, there's a
willingness on the part of theaudience to participate in the
(19:06):
durational experience of theselonger dance dramas. You know,
the Italian director cataloocheecreated this incredible work and
there were two, sort of, like,early humans, like, Neanderthals
or early Homo sapiens and theywere behind a scrim, and we
(19:27):
could just see them in thebackground, sort of, in this dim
light. And the male came backinto their cave or whatever,
wherever they were resting, andthey had sex you know, we
could see them in thebackground, sort of, dimly lit
and they were clearly having sexand then he kind of just
(19:51):
rolled away and stopped movingand she stood up and she moved
downstage towards this scrim,and I don't know what she was
working with but there was somekind of mud or it was blood or
something, and she startedpainting on the scrim. I'll
never forget that moment (20:15):
it's because it's the birth of
painting to me, that was thebirth of painting, cave painting
and it came out of a woman'sresponse to, you know, this
momentary, you know, connectionwith this man, whether he was
part of her community or thatwas her partner or whatever. But
(20:36):
painting was born out of thatintimate moment. And, so, yeah,
when things like that happen,you know, I'll never forget that
moment.
Robyn Grant-Moran (20:49):
The idea of feeling things as an audience
member feeling the airwaves,the pressure of the vibrations
of the sound has me veryreminiscent for theatre and
opera, and I hope we get to goback soon. But when we do, I'm
wondering (21:09):
what do you hope audience members take with them
when they leave after one ofyour productions?
Michael Greyeyes (21:17):
Yeah, I think as we sit here at the God, is
it the middle of the pandemic?
I'm afraid that it is, actuallyand we've lost the capacity to
gather and to have meaningfulexchanges as groups, I long for,
you know, that summer and thefall when we mounted that work.
(21:39):
It will return, people gatherand we've always gathered
we've gathered from timeimmemorial I hardly think this
will count as anything otherthan a blip in our collective
history of performing for eachother in space, [the] same
(22:00):
space. So, I'm hopeful that aswe walk out of this global
pandemic, we'll recognize theveracity of the theatrical
expression, that there's anephemerality to this moment, we
(22:24):
are here on this night, in thisspace, in this city, and this
thing only can exist now itcan only exist between us and
then the performance will end,and we'll walk away, we'll get
into the cabs, we'll get intoour Ubers, we'll take the
(22:45):
subway, we'll leave. There maybe no recording, we'll never be
able to Zoom it, we'll never beable to watch it on, you know,
the streaming channels; it willonly exist for us for that small
group of humans gathering. And,so, that's where I recognize the
(23:06):
power; the power is "How do wefeel? How do we physically
feel?" I think after nearly, youknow, eight months of Zoom
meetings, I am excited to sit ata table with other people and
drink that bad coffee, and eatthe stale danishes, and have
that awful light, you knowit's all something I can feel
(23:32):
and I miss desperately. And, youknow, the uncomfortable chairs
and, you know, falling asleep,you know, at the four-hour mark.
You know, it's all something Ithink we'll really appreciate
when we get back to it.
Julie McIsaac (23:49):
Well, and in this in-between time that we're in
right now, what projects do youfind yourself working on, and
where might our listeners seeyou or hear you next?
Michael Greyeyes (23:59):
Well, at the moment Signal Theatre is
developing a small project I'mnot directly involved with it;
we're acting more as producerswith some wonderful artists. But
currently my focus is inperformance and it has been for
the past year. I was veryfortunate during COVID to be
working in Los Angeles for aboutalmost five months, working on a
(24:22):
new television series calledRutherford Falls. Rutherford
Falls is a new half-hour comedyfrom Sierra Teller Ornelas, a
Navajo writer and producer, EdHelms and Mike Schur from The
Office, and The Good Place,Parks and Recreation. So, this
is a you know, really high levelnew series. I'm one of the
(24:48):
principal actors in the work,[it] will be coming to Peacock,
which is NBC's streaming servicein late March/early April
please watch for it, I thinkit's a landmark work. We've had
the largest writers room in thehistory of network television
that was Native. So, we were 50%Native writers on the show,
(25:10):
which is an industry first. AndI've also got Wild Indian coming
out very soon. It's a featurefilm that I lead that is in
competition at this year'sSundance Film Festival.
Julie McIsaac (25:22):
Fantastic. And we'll put some information in
the show notes for listeners,and we'll be keeping an eye and
ear out for all of that.
I'm very excited, really lookingforward to all those projects
that Michael has in the works.
They all sound fascinating andI'm just really hungry for that
content. I can't wait!
Robyn Grant-Moran (25:42):
Yeah, the reviews for a Wild Indian at the
Sundance Film Festival arebangin'. He's everywhere right
now. Yeah, I actually haven'tgonna be completely transparent
here I haven't read any of thereviews, I just have read that
they've been positive, because Idon't want to be tainted by
(26:06):
other critics' ideas of whatthey're seeing. Like, I don't
want that colouring myexperience with it.
Julie McIsaac (26:13):
What really struck you, Robyn? What are some
of your takeaways or things thatyou're left pondering after our
conversation with him?
Robyn Grant-Moran (26:21):
The visceral nature of art and how it's not
just "I'm seeing this thing onstage and I'm hearing this
thing, but I'm physically beingimpacted by the vibrations of
the sound coming from theinstruments, the sound coming
from the singers." And I can'tremember if he mentioned this or
(26:46):
I just went there in my head,but the natural extension of the
movement of the performers. Likethat is shifting airspace and it
might not be anything like,when you hear an orchestra, you
feel the orchestra. But I feel,like, in live performance, even
just having people movingonstage impacts your physicality
(27:09):
while you're sitting andwatching.
Julie McIsaac (27:11):
And, likewise, what he was telling us about
stillness, because if you usemovement mindfully or to create
a certain impact or to elicit acertain reaction, then,
likewise, that stillness can beequally compelling, and, I
think, physically in our bodies,we register stillness, or as
humans as animals, thatstillness means something to us.
So, if there's been a lot ofmovement and then suddenly
(27:32):
there's stillness, that, like,"animal-self" in you goes, "Huh,
what's happening?" You're, like,on alert or you're aware that
something's shifting, somethingexciting is happening. It pulls
your focus in a good way.
Robyn Grant-Moran (27:43):
Yeah, like, not everything has to be filled
with movement and with sound,and the spaces in between.
Julie McIsaac (27:52):
Now I'm thinking about composers who use silence
really meaningfully or there'sbeen like a wall of sound
throughout almost the entireopera, and then near that end of
Act Four, there's this momentwhere it's completely silent,
and then the character speakssomething instead of singing
something like the very end of[La] Bohme, where Mim has died.
(28:44):
Sorry, spoiler alert I shouldhave said that first!
Robyn Grant-Moran (28:48):
I don't know if our audiences can handle
that, Julie. I mean, it onlycame out how many years ago?
Julie McIsaac (29:00):
But I do find, like, the fact that he was
drawing these corollaries orlike you said, I don't know if
he said it or if it's someconnection I started to make in
my head, but about what'shappening physically and then
for us to think about what doesthat mean musically, or what are
the musical equivalent to themusical sonic corollaries of
what he's talking about?
Robyn Grant-Moran (29:16):
His allusions to Francis Bacon and that quote,
"I paint so people see and feelthe way I do," was, like, we get
on stage to share ideas, toshare feelings. I don't know it
just all oh, it was sodelicious!
Julie McIsaac (29:35):
Yeah. And two things that came to the fore for
me there was one being as adirector or creator, how you
feel like you're on this questtoward wanting to invite the
audience into this experience ofseeing the world or experiencing
the world, or the moment, thestory, the character's dilemma
in the way that you feel it, orthe way that you see it. So,
it's this constant questthroughout that creation and
(29:55):
rehearsal process that can berewarding or really frustrating
depending on how close you feellike you're getting to that
goal. And the other thing beingthat when Michael was
describing, you know, themovement of the strings of an
instrument and through air andhow it first I love that he
mentioned your skin like,sound hitting your skin
because I think particularly in,like, Western European operatic
(30:16):
tradition, we can get verycerebral like, on a level of
musical analysis, for example,very intellectual and very up in
our heads in terms of how we'renavigating the material and
it's so good to be reminded,like, "Be in your body. What is
your skin telling you? What isyour skin experiencing?" Because
that is as important, as centralto the experience as anything
else. And, back in October, wewere able to gather together:
(30:38):
[COC] Composer-in-Residence IanCusson hosted this conversation
called MindBodyMusic, and we hadthese scientists, these
neuroscientists, these peoplewho specialized in physiology
and the workings of the innerear and how that connects with
your brain, and they were ableto talk us through some really
cool stuff. So for anyone who'sinterested in hearing more about
MindBodyMusic on coc.ca. I loveall the threads of connections,
(31:00):
is basically what I'm saying!
Robyn Grant-Moran (31:03):
That was a great conversation and, yeah,
it's exactly what Michael wastalking about. Like, I don't
know about you but one of thereasons I love romantic opera
like, why I love Strauss andWagner so much is because of
that feeling when the orchestrastarts, when the overture
(31:26):
begins, and you just get hit,like, you can physically feel it
in a way that you can't Imean, I don't; I shouldn't say
you can't, it's not for me todecide your experience but I
don't get that from Baroqueopera because the orchestra is
smaller, so, you're not gettingphysically walloped by the
(31:48):
sound.
Julie McIsaac (31:59):
And, speaking of Wagner
impressions of what Michaelshared with us like, comparing
the "gesamtkunstwerk" philosophyand, sort of, Indigenous
ideologies around art andcross-disciplinary creation?
Robyn Grant-Moran (32:12):
Well, it's the thing that we've been doing
forever as Indigenous people,you know. There isn't so much of
a separation between thestoryteller and how the story is
told. So, when Wagner was doingthis revolutionary thing of
(32:32):
having this total artwork where,you know, "the composer is the
librettist is the designer isthe is everything," that's,
kind of, really old; he wasn'tdoing anything new for a portion
(32:53):
of the population. But thingsare just the way cultures
evolve; he was bringing it backtogether when it had never
separated,
Julie McIsaac (33:04):
Right. In the city, or the town, the country,
the community, he was a part of,it was seen as this revelatory,
revolutionary idea, whereas,like you're saying, actually,
there's a lot of pre-existingcommunities and practices,
historically.
Robyn Grant-Moran (33:19):
Yes, so, in this weird way, Wagner was, kind
of and I say this painfullyaware of how he's been used of
his opportunistic tendencies, ofhis anti-Semitism he was, kind
(33:39):
of, bringing everything afractured concept of art back
together, that fragmentation ofart where, you know, you have
your director, and yourlibrettist, and your composer,
and your set designer, andthey're all very different
entities.
Julie McIsaac (33:59):
Mm hmm. What really resonated with me is what
Michael was saying, that ourdifferent disciplines don't
necessarily need to delineateus, like, from each other or
from parts of ourselves like,we don't need to feel that those
things are separate and Ifound that really freeing or
liberating, too, because I'vementioned it a few times, often
on the podcast, but I come fromthis background of theatre, and
(34:21):
I've done a lot of theatre as aperformer, creator, director
and, so, sometimes in the operaworld, I feel, like, a bit,
like, "I don't belong" or that"that is something separate that
I shouldn't mention," like,"it's bad to mention that I come
from theatre" or something likeit's a bad word. But it's just
empowering to be reminded that,like [COC General Director]
Perryn [Leech] said, too, inEpisode Six, like, "No one has
(34:43):
all the skills necessary to be aGeneral Director; some people
are gonna be stronger in thisand then they're gonna have to
bring people on board to helpthem with that, and vice versa."
Other people have differentbalances of skill set, so, some
of us might be really strong interms of our German and Italian
language skills, but be lackingin other areas. And, likewise,
some people might be really goodat character analysis or visual
storytelling on stage and needsupport in terms of musical
(35:05):
analysis. So, it's just great tobe reminded that those
delineations don't need to holdus back.
Robyn Grant-Moran (35:12):
We all have our strengths and choosing a
vocation within that, based onour strengths and maybe not
our strengths, maybe ourinterests, maybe your passion,
maybe we fell into it and thenyou get there and you have this
skill set, but you might haveother things to offer and, if
(35:36):
everything's so carefullyseparated out, it can be really
hard to communicate. Like, as atheatre critic, I, kind of, have
to decide, "Do I want to be acritic or an artist?" because
they're two separate skill sets,where ne'er the twain shall
(35:57):
meet; they're seen asoppositional, adversarial rather
than mutually beneficial. Andyou as a director, you might
have a really great skill setsomewhere else but you can't
employ it because you're adirector, and directors don't do
(36:19):
that and we have everything soclearly boxed off. So you're
only bringing part of yourself.
Maybe I'm putting too much onthe boundaries and the
classifications that we giveourselves and each other.
Julie McIsaac (36:35):
Well, and coming back to your own experiences and
your own identity as anartist/critic, Robyn: what can
you share with us about havingbeen in the rehearsal hall, in
the room with Michael and Cole,when that Soundsstreams project
was being developed, beingrehearsed?
It was a really collaborativeplace to be like, strikingly
(36:56):
collaborative. It felt likeeverybody had a voice and
singers could if there wassomething that seemed weird in
the choreography or that justwasn't working that they had
the space to vocalize that. Orif someone wanted to add some
(37:19):
physicality, that there wasspace to bring that idea
forward, and that we were alltaking care of this creation
together. And I wasn't actuallyin that production; I was
filling in for a week forRebecca Cuddy, who is also a
(37:43):
[COC] Circle of Artists memberhi, Rebecca! They had some other
contract for that week ofrehearsals, and, so, I was
filling in for them. And evenwithin that, I felt like I was a
valued member of the cast by theother cast members by Cole, by
(38:09):
Michael. And my performanceexperience is limited but, from
what I've had, it was a verymeaningful experience. I usually
feel like I'm showing up anddoing a job that I'm not part of
it. The thing that I wasn'tactually a part of, I felt more
(38:32):
a part ofOh, that's interesting!
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:36):
than things that I have been a part of.
Julie McIsaac (38:38):
Hmm.
Robyn Grant-Moran (38:40):
And I think that just really speaks to the
culture and the ethos around howproductions are structured with
Michael and Cole.
Julie McIsaac (38:53):
And so glad you brought that up, because it
reminds us that the idea ofinclusion and someone being
included is much more complexand nuanced than their name
being listed in the program, andbeing credited for a particular
contribution, that there's a lotof other things that go into
someone feeling like they'repart of the collaboration and
that they're included and theirvoice is heard.
Robyn Grant-Moran (39:13):
Yeah! It's no secret that mainstream opera,
mainstream theater is highlyhierarchical, and it makes sense
that it is (39:26):
you have tons of moving parts, you have to have
things organized. Like, I getit! But then we attach things to
hierarchy that maybe doesn'tneed to be there and it felt
(39:46):
like all the weight of ahierarchy was gone.
Julie McIsaac (39:52):
And what was it like with Michael in the room?
Like, given his background as adancer and a choreographer, I'm
curious about how that impacted,like, your interactions with him
or what how that read to you?
Robyn Grant-Moran (40:05):
One day he was directing a scene that had a
fair amount of movement in it,and he came down and went from
we were divided up into groupsand he went to each group, spoke
to everybody, and just the wayhe moved through the space, he
(40:27):
had this way of expressingexactly what he wanted with his
whole being not just hiswords, not just saying, "You
should do this. Try it thisway," he would physically do it.
So, it was very clear what hewanted but it was also
incredibly inviting, and safe,and warm.
(40:48):
Canadian theatre director, KimCollier, who's also worked in
opera as well, I've seen her dothis thing where she'll take on
the emotional reality of thecharacter's situation. So, you
see her, sort of, testing anidea and physically, like,
embodying the idea is one thing,but she'll do this thing where
she, like, emotionally entersthe moment and the character's
perspective, and point of view,and emotional world, and you'll
(41:09):
see her do it like, you'll seeit come over her, you'll see her
sink into it and, so, shetests it, she tries out that
reality, and then she'll comeout of it and, like, then offer
you the direction or offer youthe observation. And it's really
beautiful to witness. I reallylove those directors who go
there, whether that's youremotion alongside you, so they
can, like, report back from thefield and tell you what they
(41:30):
discovered.
It makes it so much easier to get to what
they're looking for, whenthey're auditing it with you.
Julie McIsaac (41:44):
Yeah.
Robyn Grant-Moran (41:45):
Like it makes it easier to get there yourself.
Julie McIsaac (41:48):
Totally, totally.
And of the projects that Michaelshared with us, of the things
he's got upcoming okay, Wild
Indian. Rutherford Falls (41:55):
which one are you most excited to see
and why?
Robyn Grant-Moran (42:02):
Yes, I can't decide. Honestly, I want to see
them both. What about you?
Julie McIsaac (42:10):
Yeah, no, ditto! I did a little bit of reading
about Wild Indian and then Istopped myself because typically
if I go see previews in thecinema so before something I'm
seeing if it starts to lookgood, I just close my eyes and,
like, cover my ears and I'mlike, "It already looks so good.
I don't want to know anymore. Ijust want to go and see it and
be surprised and moved." Andthat's how I felt reading about
Wild Indian. So, after a fewsentences I thought, "Julie,
(42:30):
stop reading. Just go see itwhen it comes out because it
sounds phenomenal." Can't wait.
And then Rutherford Falls (42:33):
I was reading a little bit about that
and what really struck me isthat Rena shared something with
us when we chatted with her in aprevious [episode] Rena
Roussin, musicologist we askedher like, "What's your dream
project?" and she said she'dlove to see an Indigenous
comedy. And from the readingI've been doing about Rutherford
Falls is there is comedicelements to it like, some of
(42:53):
the people in the writers roomare comics and, so, it's
exciting to see what that mightyield in terms of themes and a
lot of Indigenous writers andperformers, and yet there's
those comedic elements.
So,really looking forward tothat.
Robyn Grant-Moran (43:08):
Yeah, that's a really good point. We talk a
lot about stuff like traumastories and, like, Indigenous
people (43:17):
were all different, of course; we're not a monolith.
But by and large, we're funnypeople. Like, to survive and
start thriving in this world,you have to be funny, you have
to be able to laugh at stuffthat is really important and, I
(43:41):
think, a thing that gets misseda lot of the time. So, that does
put Rutherford Falls a littlebit maybe not ahead but I'm
thinking about it a little bitdifferently right now
Julie McIsaac (43:54):
Cool.
Robyn Grant-Moran (43:54):
and made prioritizing differently.
Julie McIsaac (43:58):
Well, very exciting to see all these things
in store and to celebrate likewe did when we were chatting
with Ian and Cherie [Dimaline]about these new stories being
told, and the agency of theseIndigenous storytellers and the
wealth of creativity that'shappening.
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:12):
And I'm really excited for everything
coming up and what the futureholds for us, for other BIPOC
artists, for all the storiesthey get to be told on people's
own terms.
Julie McIsaac (44:35):
It was great hearing from Michael about those
artistic experiences that evokesuch a visceral reaction. I know
I've had those moments and,Robyn, you've mentioned some of
yours and, audience, we want tohear from you, we want to know
yours. So, let us know in anemail, send that to
audiences@coc.ca or send us amessage on social media.
Robyn Grant-Moran (44:56):
We also want to hear your questions about
opera for our special episode onMarch 30.
Julie McIsaac (45:02):
One thing I've always wanted to know about was,
I guess, related to thephysiology of voice types like
a countertenor, that very highvoice what is it about them
physically or about the biologyof their vocal folds, maybe,
that makes them suited tosinging in that way?
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:28):
What makes a high bright voice versus a low
voice, or a robust voice versusa reedier voice? Send us your
questions by March 5, and if wecan't answer them, we'll find
someone who can.
Julie McIsaac (45:41):
And if you're a COC subscriber or member, you
have access to exclusive bonuscontent and extended interviews.
Michael talks with us about hisgreatest artistic influences,
who we should be watching for inthe future, and so much more. So
stay tuned.
Robyn Grant-Moran (45:55):
Join us next time. We're getting into a topic
that's very ne (45:58):
opera criticism.
Julie McIsaac (46:01):
There's lots to unpack with that and I can't
wait.
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:04):
Me too.
Thanks for joining us.
Julie McIsaac (46:07):
See you next time.
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:14):
Be the first to find out about free events
and concerts from the COC bysigning up for our monthly
eOpera newsletter atcoc.ca/eOpera.
Julie McIsaac (46:26):
Thank you to all of our supporters for making Key
Change possible. This week, wewant to especially thank every
COC member, subscriber, anddonor for coming on this journey
with us as we explore new waysto share opera's unique power.
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:41):
So to make sure you don't miss an episode,
subscribe to Key Change whereveryou get your podcasts.
Julie McIsaac (46:47):
Key Change is produced by the Canadian Opera
Company and hosted by RobynGrant-Moran and Julie McIsaac.
Robyn Grant-Moran (46:54):
To learn more about today's guests and see the
show notes, please visit ourwebsite at coc.ca/KeyChange
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