The MAGA Threat: Defending Democracy with Pat Dennis of American Bridge 21st Century

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi and welcome to the Keystone Reckoning Podcast.
I am Jesse White.
We're going to jump right intoit.
We have a special guest with ustoday, pat Dennis with American
Bridge 21st Century, and we arehere to talk about the
perpetual doom scroll that weare in between now and Election
Day.
So thank you for joining me,pat.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hey, thanks for having me.
So probably would be usefulright up front to tell everybody
what American Bridge is, youknow, kind of where you came

(00:42):
from as an organization and kindof an overview of what we're
most famous for is doingopposition research against
Republicans.
So we dig up dig up the dirt,but also, just like you know,
the votes, the terrible thingsthey've done in their careers,
and make sure to get thatpublicized every election.
But then, starting in 2020, wealso do paid media spending.

(01:04):
In 2020, we were the largestoutside spender in support of
Biden in Pennsylvania.
We spent about $32 million onads in Pennsylvania and I'm
happy to get more into that andwhat those look like, what we're
doing there.
So that's another big part ofit.
So it's the ads and it's theoppo research.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah, and it's really interesting that you're doing
both, because you know so, Ihave this pack and, being former
elected, like one of the thingsI thought about with it was
what's the thing that I wouldn'twant people to like?
What would be the thing thatwould drive me crazy, right, and
I was like, yeah, the opporesearch, because even you see a
lot of candidates when they'rerunning they don't really know,
they don't do a very good job, Ithink, of explaining why the

(01:52):
incumbent or whoever doesn'tdeserve their vote, and because
so much of it is lost in theweeds, and find a way to message
them effectively is really asmart move, because it's a way
to kind of sprinkle some of thatpolicy vegetables in with the
things that people want to eat.
So how did you kind of come onto that formula and kind of what

(02:15):
was the point where you knew itwas going to?

Speaker 2 (02:16):
work.
Yeah, so I personally have doneABBA research for my entire
career.
I started working for campaignsand but, but I've been with
american bridge now for morethan 10 years uh, really focused
on on that strategy.
And it's funny because in thepost trump era, a lot of people
um decided to start to thinkthat like, oh, oppo doesn't

(02:39):
matter anymore because we knowall these terrible things about
Trump and he still got electedin one election, which is just
not true.
Like voters really care aboutcandidates, they really care
about the specifics.
Pennsylvania in particular.
You've had some real dooziesrunning for governor, for
example but also, just like areal problem with the Republican

(03:02):
Party, they're findingcandidates who are from the
state, I mean people thatactually live here.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
I mean to be fair.
It's a small state.
It's hard to find a place likeyeah, you're right, the optics
of who they pick are justabsolutely.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
It's incredible, but it goes to show, like you know,
somebody like McCormick likeit's an incredibly important
part of the case against him,things that are traditionally
Apple research, but like wherehe lives, where he just paid
taxes, the things that his youknow he's done in his business
career, which the specifics arejust terrible.

(03:36):
Somebody needs to sit down andgo through all that stuff.
And you know, read all of youknow Bridgewater Capital's 10K
reports and you know it's, it'sa lot of work but really, like
it's what democracy is about.
It's about understanding yourcandidates, understanding not
just what they say but what theyactually have done and what
they do and how that shows whatthey value.
So that's really what we try tofoster here and you know it's a

(03:58):
lot of, it's a lot of reading,it's a lot of documents, it's a
lot of watching videos ofabsolutely disgusting people at
you know say things that areterrible.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
Pander into their base, right that's.
That's what I love is the ideaof being able to kind of it's
like the inverse of meetingvoters where they are.
It's kind of meeting candidateswhere they are and you know,
especially on the Republicanside, and the way they play to
their base, especially like aguy, like a McCormick right,
who's going to.
He's smart enough to know whatto say, he's cognizant of the

(04:31):
room he's in and you know whatto say and you can't let him get
away with that.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
And yeah, well he's.
He's hired somebody to give himthe memo right before he gets
on stage.
I don't know if you get Well, Idon't know if you get him.
Well, I don't know if you gethim.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, I don't know it's terms of his hiring If his
social media person still has ajob after.
Like the other, I'm fromPittsburgh originally.
I'm out here in Pittsburgh now,but I just had to laugh so hard
about that.
You know he's all out here forthe, I'm out here for the, for
the, for the Steelers.
He's an Eagles game and youknow it was funny.
As someone who does politicalsocial media, I was like I get

(05:06):
what they were doing.
They were like, oh, and goodluck to the Steelers.
Yeah, just so sloppy.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
When you have a preexisting narrative that
you're not from the state, youcan't make it look like you
don't know where the Eagles play.
And I can't believe they didn'tdelete that.
I mean, maybe they did after Igot to to it, but it was up for
at least 24 hours it was.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
and the other one I always love when the the the
litmus test of going to phillyfor a cheesesteak and it always
goes south for republicans and Ithink it was was a mccormick's
group this time out, where theylike they got some like
republican operative and who waslike said it was for like a, a

(05:45):
faith based thing, likebasically they got into the
cheese sink place under falsepretenses and it all went South.
They said it was autismawareness.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah, that was it.
That was it.
Yeah, and then yeah, so they dothis event and the headline
coming out of it is the owner ofthe business being like I can't
believe these guys tricked meLike just utterly uh stepping on
themselves.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, and it is.
You know, I had a.
I had a really enjoyed, likewhen jd vance did the thing at
permante brothers.
Um, yeah, that's yeah that we,we spent more money and time and
and eat more sandwiches than Ican think of and I was just like
, but it's funny because thething that I noticed was a lot
of that is performative in thatand I'd love to get your opinion

(06:26):
on this.
Like, traditional politicalcommunication is about winning
over votes, right Winning, orbuilding an air of perception,
but a lot of this, what I'veseen, especially in this cycle,
is it's more about fueling theoutrage machine.
It's more about fueling theoutrage machine and the
Permanente thing was a greatexample because it felt like I
know I've been watching allthese crazy videos and I know a

(06:49):
lot of people that were in themand I'm like, oh, these are a
bunch of Muppets, like this isridiculous.
And it felt like they knew theydid it poorly on purpose
because they wanted the outrage,so then they could go back to
well, kamala Harris bust peoplein, which wasn't what happened,
but they wanted that.
It was more about, like,fueling the rage machine.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
This.
This is a fundamental problem,I think, where they have a
hermetically sealed mediaenvironment, which is what they
watch.
It's what their core voterswatch, but it's not what any
swing voter watches and it leadsthem to make these weird
decisions that you know feedingthe outrage machine will bite
you like it.
I mean, one of the mostimportant political attacks of

(07:28):
all time I think we can say atthis point, to the extent that
it's stuck in the everydayvoters' brain, is JD Vance
talking about childless catladies.
Right, that has people whodon't care about politics at all
.
That is the one thing they knowabout JD Vance.
And why was he saying that?
Because he was going on rightwing media, where that's just
like a normal thing to say,because those folks make money

(07:49):
by selling ads, because theypeople listen to it and they're
mad and they're super engagedwith it.
That has nothing to do withwinning elections.
That's everything to do with amedia business that mostly just
scams its own listeners and yousee it just backfiring on the
Republican Party constantlybecause they have to pander to
these outrage mongers just toget to a primary.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
It's so funny you mentioned that I was thinking I
was just talking to a friend ofmine right before we got on here
that worked in state governmentwith me and we were going back
and kind of doing like a reversetimeline of how did we get here
right?
And to me the inflection pointwas 2010.
Because you know, the Tea Partycomes on and you start at first

(08:30):
they weren't taken seriously,but you saw the seeds of like
going into a Bob Casey town hallmeeting about Obamacare and,
you know, disrupting it and youstart to see these things.
But the other piece of thatthen comes into the
redistricting parts, especiallyPennsylvania, because we were
talking about how we used toactually do bipartisan things.
We saw like block parties arein the budget and part of it is

(08:51):
the rise of cell phones, cameraphones, Right.
But the other part of it was,after redistricting, so many
moderate or reasonableRepublicans lost primaries.
And I think that if you got theRepublican leaders from back
then drunk and ask them did yougo too far with the
redistricting?
I think they would tell you yes, because they created a monster

(09:14):
and that they created so manydeep red districts because they
thought that would let them keepa majority and it largely has,
but it fundamentally made theirparty ungovernable.
Because all the moderates aregone, because it doesn't matter
about offending the Democratsanymore, because they could
never win.
Have you seen that kind ofevolution?

Speaker 2 (09:32):
I mean, I've seen that and it's funny.
I never know if I shouldattribute it to 2010 or it's
just like that was my secondcycle in politics and everything
.
No, it was.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
It was my second I got elected in 2006 and 2010 is
they came after me and they cameafter everybody and so many of
my colleagues at Western PA lostand I managed to beat it by
kind of going against the grainand doing some of the things
you're talking about and weactually had like operatives and
events and stuff.
But yeah, I mean, it was atotal sea change total, it was a

(10:07):
total sea change.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah for sure.
And you know these folks.
I remember being out there in2009, 2010 and, like my first
jobs as an oppo researcher was,I would go to, I was a tracker,
I would go to the opposingcandidates events and I would
talk to all these tea partypeople.
And this is really where yousee the politics of like
confrontation.
That's not done to like becauseyou want to confront them, but
it's done for the cameras.
Like you know these folks, theyall had their own cameras there

(10:29):
back then.
They weren't even cell phones,they were flip cameras and they
were doing these.
You know this confrontation, butthose folks were legitimate
extremists, like seriousextremists, and in a lot of
these districts they became, youknow, the kingmakers because
they ran the local Tea Partygroup.
You know, if you wanted to dosmall dollar fundraising, like
the pathway went through themand it has backfired

(10:52):
extraordinarily.
And you know people will say,oh, but Pat, like you know,
trump has been remarkablysuccessful capitalizing off this
, but he hasn't.
He won one election and then helost 2018.
He lost 2020.
He lost 2022.
And I think it's just doneincredible damage to the
Republican Party.
Now it's also done incredibledamage to America, so that's not
good.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
Well, yeah, right, I mean, that's the thing.
It's like, boy, there's notgoing to be a Republican Party
left after Trump.
You're like, what is theregoing to be a country after
Trump?
Like, is it going to matter?
And the fact that we're havingthose conversations now like
seriously is alarming.
But, yeah, I agree with you.
I think that they, they youknow you want to talk about
selling your soul to the devilright, because you're right what

(11:34):
happened was then andRepublicans have always been
better at this at the statelevel, I think, and they're very
good at building a benchthere's not as much of a wait,
your turn mentality, right,they're like're like, oh yeah,
come on in.
And so they bring these peopleinto local government positions
or whatever, and they just and Ithink a lot of it is they did
in their own party.
What you're seeing now, whichis it just becomes a war of
attrition.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
We're going to make you so miserable and we're going
to be so in your face abouteverything that you're just
going to walk away yeah, I meanI think it's interesting
bringing this back toPennsylvania, like Scott Perry
right, like there's somebody wholike really went off the right
wing, deep end, full MAGA fulllike January 6th, like full, you

(12:17):
know, extraordinarily extremeon abortion, and now you see
that district is like I live in.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
I'm sitting in right now.
I live in Carmel County, yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
Oh nice, yeah, I live in Canton and you know, you see
, the vulnerabilities from whatthey've done, like the extremism
has just really, really harmedthings.
Oh, you tell me You're therehow?

Speaker 1 (12:36):
are things on the ground.
It's really interesting in thatand I knew Scott, I served with
Scott in the state house and Iwatched him go to Congress and
be great.
He was never this bad Right.
He just.
You know, I always have atheory that, like usually, the
higher up the ladder you go kindof the.
You become almost like acaricature of who you are, right
, but like, yeah, he just wentall in.
But the fascinating thing to meis that's not part of the

(12:59):
narrative around here, right?
So when you have these figuresthat are like national figures
and you're like how doesMarjorie Taylor Greene get
elected in her district?
How's Laura?
Well, laura Mobert moves toanother district, but yeah like,
how do you, how do these peopleget elected?
Part of it is the well, youknow they had a veterans dinner
for us, or there's always thatconstituent part of it.
But I think the nationalizedissues don't often find their

(13:21):
way onto the ground and I thinkthat what I see in the messaging
and your messaging guy is theyalmost use it in their favor,
right, like they're all comingafter me.
You know, basically they'recoming after us, so I'm going to
run in and slam the door shuton them and thank God we made it
right.
Yeah, that's kind of the vibe Iget because you don't like, I
was at a local, uh, we local, uh, we went our kids a local

(13:42):
halloween parade last week andyou know perry was actually when
he was doing his debate, so hewasn't there, but he usually is,
but they had a truck orwhatever for him and you would
think that if they take, if youtook, a scott perry truck down a
street at a parade, like halfthe people at least would be
throwing the candy back rightand tell them to go off.
You didn't really see that andyou don't hear the vitriol or

(14:05):
you don't hear people talking ina casual way about it.
I do think it's not a lot forparty building out here,
absolutely.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
But I mean, what about, like you know, the Life
Conception Act, stuff Like thisis a guy who would vote for,
like essentially, a nationalabortion ban.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
Well, it's really interesting because I moved from
Washington County, which was a,you know, a blue collar, blue
area that then immediately, likea Democrat, can kind of like a
dog catcher there, yeah, toCumberland County and like,
right, as we moved here fiveyears ago, it was like that week
there was an article that ithad reached the point where D's
and I's combined to outnumberRepublicans for the first time

(14:42):
ever, right eyes combined tooutnumber Republicans for the
first time ever, right, so it'sstarting to trend.
But I was worked withProgressive Turnout Project out
here in 2020.
I ran their central PAoperation and it was not hard to
see.
There's that thing where againit's.
There's a lot of pressure putout there.
The Democrats believe they'realone.
Right, you knock on a door andthey say, well, I'm a Democrat,

(15:03):
but nobody else on the street is.
And you're like, well, actually, like four of your neighbors
are, and they're like no, no, no, this is all Republican around
here.
So it forces everybody to bekind of insular and that that is
a huge impediment to partybuilding and to building a
narrative.
Right, it's kind of keepingeverybody isolated because they
think they're the only ones, andI think this.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
I've really seen that play out here and it does take.
It takes strong local partybuilding, it takes good
candidates and it takes a lot tokind of get to that point, and
I think Perry has really been abeneficiary of that.
I think publicly people aren'tsaying much from.
Privately they are normal likewe'll have like a swing voter
focus group, but like rightleaning and folks who voted for
trump, and it is very normal forus to see folks in those groups
basically be like you know,reading each other and but then
if you get them one-on-one,they're like look, I am a

(15:58):
republican, I believe in thisstuff, but like my daughter,
like if she got pregnant, likeit's just too serious, like I
can't, and it's like, well, whydidn pregnant?
Like it's just too serious,like I can't, and it's like,
well, why didn't you say that toeverybody?
And well, I couldn't say it.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
so I wonder if there's really like a quiet and
this is kind of what we saw in2022 just like a quiet majority
there, that's really going todrop the hammer on these people
that is literally the argument Iwas just making to my friend a
little while ago and I agree 100, because I actually just done a
podcast on this that normallywe're like yard size, don't vote
, right, who cares?
You know, especially when youwork on a campaign like yard

(16:29):
size or the bane of yourexistence, right, yeah, but to
me, you know, and you know this,yard size in public areas don't
matter.
Yard size in yards at leastmeans something, and this is one
of those times.
I've seen it play out in mystreet where it's like and my
wife and I've had thisconversation, you know like do
we put a yard sign out becausedo you want to raise the ire of
people?
And it's like, but the problemis the crazy Trumpers are so in

(16:53):
your face and if they don't seethat other people are supporting
the other side, it goes back to, like you said, they're so
insular that they're like well,everybody must agree with me.
So if the election doesn't goour way, then it must've been
rigged.
Now let's go burn the Capitoldown, right?
So like it actually does it.
There's that social psychologyto it that I think a lot of

(17:13):
people don't get, because oneside is a political party and
the other side's a cult Rightand you're playing different
games and you don't want to dealwith the cultist next door.
Sometimes you don't want toknow that the person next door
is in.
A cult Makes life easier.
Because now I'm at the pointwhere, if you're a Trump
supporter and you're not, eithera billionaire or a white
supremacist not that they'remutually exclusive I don't know

(17:35):
who you are Right, and maybe Idon't want to know you and I
never thought I'd say that, butI just can't.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
But you know, it's so interesting, so the focus
groups are kind of bearing thatout.
Then, yeah, and look, we'vebeen on the same journey.
I've always been anti-yard signand we've been on the same
journey.
I put one out for the firsttime this year because, yeah, I
think they matter and I thinkthey're an important
counterweight to like internetconversations like anything from
and counterweight to likeinternet conversations like

(18:08):
anything from.
Uh, you know, facebook isground zero for this
neighborhood list serves likepeople are just meaner to each
other on the internet andthey're polarized and they these
conversations break down.
But if your neighbor down thestreet, who you like because you
borrowed his lawnmower, has alawn side up, like that is like
a real like foot in the door, umfor like communicating and I
think, especially now,especially with the national

(18:28):
stuff, because it's a valuestatement, right, it's like I
care enough about this or I Ihave enough to me as a candidate
.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
When I would knock on a door, having them say they'd
vote for me is great.
Having them say, having justmet me, right, they'll give me a
yard sign, that means I reallyclosed the deal.
You know they're giving youthat personal endorsement.
That matters immensely and yeah, I think that.
And but I think that's part ofthe tactic right intimidation,
you know, keep everybody insularso you can't build that sense

(18:58):
of community which can then helpyou know how to drive the drive
participation.
But I agree that I think thesilent majority thing, now more
than ever, is I think you'regoing to see it in this
election- yeah, and thisactually drives a lot of our
advertising strategy, Right?

Speaker 2 (19:12):
So, like a lot of people assume that we're going
to be up with ads that are like,oh you know, like big bad, like
voice, like Donald Trump is theworst person you've ever seen.
But like what we found honestly, Donald Trump is the worst
person you've ever seen.
But like what we found honestlyis like we recruit people from
inside the media markets wherewe're going to be advertising
like real people on the groundPennsylvania, we also do

(19:34):
Michigan and Wisconsin and wedon't script anything.
We just sit down like we'llliterally go to their house talk
about like, hey, what issuesare important to you?
Like you voted for Trump, howdid he disappoint you?
Like, what are you worriedabout?
You know, and we sit down andwe just fill them in their own
words and that's what we put onTV.
It's just everyday peoplelooking directly at the camera

(19:56):
talking about.
You know, I'm worried that mydaughter won't be able to get an
abortion if she needs one.
You know we have a nurse namedLori who is up in Pennsylvania
and you know she just talksabout what she's seen her
patients have to deal with sinceRoe fell down and that that has
been.
We find just extremely,extremely effective, especially

(20:18):
with women.
But, like you know, reallyoutside of like the most extreme
Trump partisans, like thosemessages really go, really get
driven home.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, and what I'm going to do is I have some stuff
from your YouTube page andeverything.
I'll probably just drop someaudio from one of your ads and
so people can actually hear thatand I'll put the link in the,
in the notes and everything, sopeople can actually go and check
it out.
Because, so this is what Ithink is super interesting, you
know as, because we've actuallybeen sitting here talking about
retail politics and on theground politics, right, but what

(20:48):
you do is almost the exactopposite.
Right, you're there on theground, you're flying at 50,000
feet and I think that in recentcycles, having worked, consulted
and worked in numerous races atvarious up and down the ballot,
I think that democrats havealmost over relied on field.
Um, you know, we gotta knockdoors, we have to knock doors.

(21:09):
I think there's a segment of theparty that they feel they put
an outsized influence on fieldand it's kind of really
permeated a lot of it, becauseknocking doors is great, but
I've always said, like, above astate house race, you're never
gonna win by knocking on doors.
It's just too big and you knowthat's also time.
It's very time consuming.
Right, there are other thingsto do and I've always seen, and

(21:33):
it always seems to be gettingmore and more.
So how do you, in crafting yourmessage, how do you kind of see
your role in kind of like thebroader messaging scope of like
you know how, what are youtrying to accomplish that that
may not be getting accomplishedany other way?

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Totally so.
It's important to know like weare part of an ecosystem Right,
and like we do not do field nowbecause, like I do, like there
is absolutely a place for fieldand the Kamala campaign has that
handled, I don't know.
They have like three to 10times as many staffers on the
ground in Pennsylvania as Trumpdoes and it's like you know,
they know what they need, theyknow what numbers they need to
hit.
There there's we're not goingto add anything to that and then

(22:15):
there's the other super PACsthere's like Future Forward.
They're really big, they're upin the huge media markets.
You know your Pittsburgh's andyour Philadelphia's.
Where we fit into this is wereally focused in on a core
demographic of swing voters.
We've done this.
We did it in 2020.
We're doing it now is largelywomen.

(22:36):
It is more rural, rural,suburban, exurban, you know,
outside of like the majorpopulation centers.
But folks who are, you know,many of them haven't gotten to
college.
These are folks where they arecross pressured when it comes to
supporting Trump.
Like a lot of them, theirhusband will be a big Trump
supporter.

(22:57):
They are very much on the fence.
A lot of these voters voted for, for Trump in 16, some of them
in 20.
And they have like major doubts.
You know Roe was the catalystfor that, but like January 6th,
very much like a close secondthere and driving these voters
away.
And just the third thing islike just Trump's temperament,

(23:19):
like the number one thing youhear in these groups is the
guy's just a huge jerk um, whichyou can't you know you can't um
, drive a feature or a bug,though, right, we've never been
able to figure that out.
You know well, with thesevoters it's a bug.
So those are the folks we'retargeting.
And yeah, as I mentioned before, like the way to do it is not
to put a dc like voiceover inthe ad, it's to have like those

(23:41):
actual voters explaining it toeach other so you kind of view
yourself as kind of like thetipping point.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
Right Like you're, you want to be the thing that
pushes them over the edge intheir decision making over the
edge, maybe the thing that helpsthem make that, you know, make
that final determination, yeah,yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
So we're like a lot of other spenders.
They have to spend a lot oftheir time and money getting out
the base Right and that isimportant.
We are not focused on the base,we are focused on swing voters,
on folks who could go eitherway, folks who maybe we want in
the past but they aren't surethey want to stay with Democrats
.
So, as I like to say, we makeour lives as hard as possible.
We like don't do studio ads, we, we do real people, um, which

(24:24):
is just, you know, veryeffective but logistically very
hard.
And we target but you know,some of the hardest voters to
swing.
What it's important.
That's what we got to do.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, I've.
I've always been a targetingguy and even back before we had
all the tech that would make iteasier.
Yeah, it's just so importantbecause you know you have such
little time to actuallycommunicate with somebody and if
you're not talking to themabout the not that they what
they want to hear, but the thingthey care about it's wasted
energy.
And especially on thedemocratic side, because we're

(24:55):
we're not monolithic and youknow, even within the same house
, and that's why things likegeofencing and things like that
are amazing tools.
I could literally talk to fivedifferent family members about
five different issues andthey're all sitting around their
tablets, right?
It's insane, yeah, but knowinghow to do that and how to be
effective with it is, and itsounds like you use I'm curious

(25:17):
a little bit, you know, withoutgiving up your secret sauce like
what does that process looklike in terms of like figuring
out the who's, when's andwhere's, and how does that all
kind of come together?

Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, so we work with some real smart data firms who
sort of have the entire voterfile that's mixed together with
all kinds of differentdemographic data.
But really the core of it is Imentioned the focus groups it's
like actually talking to peoplewho fit into the various
demographic profiles, reallygetting a feel for them as

(25:48):
individuals.
We do our own polling.
We do a lot of.
One of the things that wereally focus on is what we call
like media consumption studies,which is like it's kind of naive
to assume that people are justgoing to be watching like the
nightly news on broadcast.
Like you know, it's like it's1982.
So we spend a lot of time likehow much time do you spend on

(26:11):
Facebook?
How much time do you spendconsuming TikTok?
How much time do you spendreading paper newspaper?
It's very little.
How much time do you spend, youknow, reading different online
publications, watchingtelevision news, everything
conceivable.
And we try to get a real.
You know a lot of these folks.
You know most of our targetsare not political junkies at all

(26:33):
, but they spend a lot of timelistening to, you know, true,
true crime podcasts, things likethat.
So we really try to get a feelfor how they consume the media,
so that we're not just likedumping our money into broadcast
ads that are that nobody'swatching, and making sure we can
, you know, meet them where theyare, meet them, you know the
places where they're actuallygoing to hear these messages.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, I could tell you, you know, at least you guys
have the funding to do thedifferent things.
I can't tell you what anightmare it has become to try
to do a media buy in a campaignwhere you have no money.
It's almost impossible becausethere's no good options anymore.
Right, it's just you know liketo do that.
You know I could understand,you know I can understand that
process, but then being able tocarry it out in terms of not

(27:18):
only the ability to buy the adtime but to produce enough
creative to meet all of it.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
And, quite frankly, trying to get candidates and
organizations to understand thatis really hard, yeah, and,
quite frankly, try to getcandidates and organizations to
understand, that is really hard,yeah, yeah.
So it's to have the ability toand the resources to actually
kind of see that process throughfrom beginning to end is really
, really effective.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, I mean, look, it's a luxury.
I've worked on much smallercampaigns where we don't have
that kind of thing.
You know I was around in somecases for these tools existed.
Don't have that kind of thing.
You know, I was around in somecases before these tools existed
.
But this is also kind of why wedo the oppo as well, because,
like, if something we reallybelieve in here is like you can
buy as much media as you wantbut like it's not going to,

(27:59):
generally speaking, like be aperson opening up a trusted
media source and seeing some keypiece of information, so like
you know, dave McCormickscrewing up the teacher's
pensions in Pennsylvania, likethat's something that was like
on local TV, in local newspapersall over the state, and like
that.
You know, that kind of earnedmedia stuff is also something

(28:23):
we're really focused on.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, and I think you know a really good example of
that because I'm a big believer.
One of the old timers that Ifirst dealt with, you know he
told me, you know, defineyourself and define your
opponent Right, there's the mostimportant two things you can do
.
And it's amazing, yeah, rightit's.
You know, candidates just don'tdo that as much.
And I think a lot of that iskind of what we're talking about

(28:45):
here.
You know those little thingsyou know, like, for example,
dave McCormick not knowing hewas at a Steelers, not knowing
he was in Eagles game except forSteelers game.
For a lot of people that waskind of all they need to know.
But that wouldn't have workedhad the narrative not been made
and the groundwork hadn't beenlaid that he doesn't live here

(29:05):
If you don't have that firstpiece of information hadn't been
laid that he doesn't live hereif you don't have that first
piece of information, the secondpiece doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, and it all got a boost from the fact that it
worked on dr oz last time.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Well, that was it.
That was my whole point.
They're like this is a place itbuilds on itself right.
I mean I remember when fettermandid the.
I mean they just trolled him sohard with the, uh, the
billboard or the, the theflyover with yeah, and they got
snooki to do a cameo or whateverand he was like come back to
New Jersey.
And it was funny because I wasrunning a campaign at the time.

(29:35):
So I was with a lot ofpolitical people in Lancaster
County and it was very mixedreviews about how that was
playing and you could kind ofsee who got it and who didn't,
because it was like they'regoing to get to defining who
Fetterman is, but they've got todefine who Oz is first.
And it played out beautifully.
And what's your opinion?

(29:55):
Do the Republicans do this ordo they do it well?
Or I mean, what's thecomparison?

Speaker 2 (30:01):
It depends Like.
You can definitely findexamples of them doing a good
job.
Still, the Republicans over thepast like five years, have
purged a lot of their, like,actual talent.
Um, some of some of their bestfolks on this have actually,
like, since, uh, gone to theprivate sector or um, some of
them even became democrats,somebody like tim miller, uh.

(30:23):
So, but yes, they are stillcapable of doing it and they
have a slightly easier job inthe sense that they have, like a
bought and paid for mediaecosystem where one person
without media standards canreport it, fox News will pick it
up and say so and so alleges,and then it ends up in the mail
piece and then, you know, andthen somebody asks about it in a

(30:43):
debate because it's out there,even though it's like.
So, like, they have their ownways of doing it which are a
little bit more underhanded.
But you know, in a lot of waysthey're swimming against the
tide in the sense that, like,there's just this huge branding
problem they have named DonaldTrump, which, in a lot of places
that they used to win, hasbecome just anathema.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
So yeah, yeah, and you know it's.
I always think that I look at,like you know, project Veritas
and that kind of garbage, youknow, and if you read like the
backstories of those and howlike insane, like when it all
comes tumbling down, it's alwayslike insane.
But it feels to me like I'mlooking at like what you do and
even like when you're not evenlike gotcha stuff, it's to me

(31:26):
it's never considered likegotcha or dirty politics.
I think that democrats a lot oftimes fall into this.
Well, we can't do, just becausethey do what we shouldn't do it
.
You know, when they go low, wego high stuff, which I'm real
glad that we've kind of movedaway from that.
When the obamas were kind oflike, yeah, f that we're done
with that, like I was like, yeah, we go in a variety of
different directions right,right, right.
Hey, you go where the tide takesyou sometimes, yeah, yeah, but

(31:49):
this idea of it's like dirty todo this kind of stuff and it's
like look, especially if it's anelected official who's already
in there talking about therecord and the things they say,
you know, with a lot of what youdo is kind of bringing the
details to light of things aboutpolicy and what's really being
said, which I think a lot oftimes Democrats traditionally

(32:12):
view that they kind of frown onthat and they're like, oh,
that's got your politics.
We need to be better than that.
Yeah, what do you?
What would you say to thosepeople?
Yeah, I don't want to say tothem, but I would like to know
what you would say.

Speaker 2 (32:23):
Would you prefer a world where, like you just don't
know that Dave McCormick fundedmilitary weapons manufacturers
in China, right, like it's good,it's important to know that
stuff Like, or the fact that hewas short selling Hershey,
trying to drive them out ofbusiness, like these are things
that matter, that drive home,like to tell you something about

(32:47):
what this person values, whatthey believe, and you know, you
think back to a world wherethere was like, oh, a
gentleman's agreement where,like, we won't talk about this
stuff.
It's, like that doesn't lead toa more informed electorate.
That just leads to, you know,elite essentially like colluding
with each other to keep peoplein the dark.

(33:08):
So voters deserve to know.
But like you can't just makestuff up, right, and he's got it
.
Virtually everything we do, wehand off, you know we'll do the
investigation and then we'llhand it off to a legitimate
journalist and say, hey, youknow, you can, you know this now
.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
Like you can verify it or you can't, but like this
is information that deserves tobe out there right, yeah, I
always take it from theperspective of you can't govern
if you don't win, and and we'veseen the result of that right,
like it matters, you know, andit's, yeah, I always look at it
like don't break the law, youknow, don't do anything, that's
very important, right, well, andnot only that, like there are

(33:46):
definitely lines.
Right, you don't go after acandidate's family or anything
like, oh, you know, there areclear lines of you know kind of
rules of war that at least Ithink we abide by.
But beyond that, if we'retalking about, like their
professional things they'resaying, or their performance or
whatever, like how is that?
Isn't that kind of like thething we should be judging them
on?

Speaker 2 (34:04):
yeah, and it's such.
I mean not to criticize myfellow democrats too much, but
you know you can.
It is a luxury to be able tosit around and decide not only,
oh, do I want to win, but do Iwant to win, like while wearing
a completely on soiled likewhite cape.
That, uh, you know, it just isentirely perfect and it's no.

(34:27):
Like this is politics, likepeople's lives are at stake here
.
It's like are these kids goingto get Medicaid or not?

Speaker 1 (34:34):
I think you're right and I think one of the
challenges that we run into iswe, you know, as Democrats, I
think we generally overanalyzethings a lot more, and I look at
it like this, like, I feel likeDemocrats a lot of times find
reasons to not support acandidate and Republicans find
any reason to support, yeah,trump's story, yeah, right.

(34:54):
And so, for example, I've youknow my political past dealt
with taking on the frackingindustry to great.
You know it was quite theadventure.
You know that ultimately led tome losing my last election and
to me I got called by somereporters after the Harris-Trump
debate because they knew I wasactive on this issue and they

(35:17):
were like well, what do youthink about what she said about
fracking?
I was like I don't care, Idon't care, my opinion on the
issue hasn't changed.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:25):
But if you think that that is, I'm willing to
acknowledge that.
If that's what you have to sayor if that's what you believe,
if that's the one thing I have aproblem with, I don't care.
Like you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
You're never going to agree with a candidate 100%,
like never, right, it's notpossible.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
And I've seen so many former colleagues.
You know I always say if acandidate tells you everything
you want to hear, you are beinglied to Right.
It's just not possible, and Ifeel like we try to be a little
too perfect.
I think you're wearing thewhite, the white kit.
I think that's a good.
It's a good way of putting it,but it is, and it makes it.
From a messaging point of view,though, does it make your job

(36:05):
harder?

Speaker 2 (36:05):
because your audience is different.
We it is Like.
For us on the paid media, ouraudience is defined largely by
being completely not completelyapolitical, but not political
junkies at all.
So they're, you know, a freshgroup.
Now, on the oppo side, a lot ofthe people who read this kind
of reporting are, you know,seriously into politics and that

(36:26):
only makes it down to thevoters later in the paid media.
Or you know seriously intopolitics and that only makes it
down to the voters later in thepaid media.
Or you know when, you know ifit ends up on the candidate's
Wikipedia page and they'rereading up before they vote and
that kind of thing.
So you know, for us it's prettyeasy, Like we never really hear
pushback number one, becausemost of the time nobody even
knows where stuff came from.

(36:47):
Us, we're just providinginformation out there, uh, but,
and you know, uh, and you're noton the ground, right that's.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
You know that is one of the luxuries of not being.
You know you could do that kindof stuff and you're you're more
worried about getting it outthere than because you don't
have to.
Yeah, you don't have to getthat direct pushback from folks,
but I'm always having to becriticized.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
If people want to criticize me for being too tough
on the republicans, like guiltyas charged, like right, well,
right, it's almost a.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
It's a, it's a lingerie in some ways.
But it's also a responsibilityin the other, because you have
the ability to really shape thenarrative in ways that those
individual door knockers can't.
But there's also aresponsibility there to make
sure that you're not doinganything to to to steer the ship
the wrong way.
Like you've got it, you've gota bigger order than a lot of
people and there's aresponsibility.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
That is important, especially it's funny actually.
So we were always, and stillare, a DC based organization,
post COVID.
Now, like we, our staff is allover the place and that has been
a huge benefit.
Now, like you know, half ourcomms team lives in wisconsin,
we have people in michigan, wehave people in pennsylvania, we
have people in texas and,honestly, like having a remote

(37:59):
staff that's on the ground andlike literally like in these
places really makes us moreeffective.
I believe, um, just, you know,there's only so much you can do
from us in DC.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Right, yeah, I'd be interested.
So do you think, just as aresult of kind of the organ, is
that your organization having akind of a different feel, right,
a different kind of becauseyou're not centralized?
Do you think that then made itsway into the way you
communicated with folks that youwouldn't have had?

Speaker 2 (38:29):
otherwise, yeah, I think it's definitely helped.
Like just you can't help buthave a better feel for the
election when you're, you know,living in the place, seeing the
same local news as everybodyelse and you know this.
I'd love to take credit forthis as, like a great political
strategy.
But ultimately, like we justwent remote during the pandemic
and a lot of people moved out tothe states where you know

(38:53):
they're from or where they, youknow, worked on previous
elections, and it just happenedto work out really well.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
That's great.
So I want to ask you aboutsomething you mentioned a couple
of times and it's become moreof an issue, I think, in than
I've ever seen before which isthe role of the media.
And you know that we've heardthe term stain washing and all
these different things, and I'dlove to get your, your opinion
on it and not only just kind of,as it is part of the larger,
you know, are things differentnow and maybe why that is?

(39:23):
But then also you you talkedabout working with reporters,
with the media, to bring thesethings out and the challenges
that you may be running into ornot.
You know that would allow us tobelieve.
You know, is the media doingtheir job?
Are they doing it the right way?

Speaker 2 (39:39):
Yeah Well, how much time you got.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
And also we have 14 more minutes, but I mean it's
become a really big deal?

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, it is a big deal, and my answer on this also
changes depending on the timeof day you catch me at,
depending on how mad I am at anygiven reporter.
I think there have beencolossal, world changing
failures of the media.
Donald Trump is number one in alot of ways, like I'm not going
to relitigate the 2016 emailscoverage in the New York times,

(40:11):
but that is the go-to example.
But more so than that, there isjust a general like he gets
graded on a curve, like the guylike we had how many new cycles
about mental fitness in thiscountry?
And then Donald Trump goes,does a town hall abruptly stops
taking questions, has the soundguys start playing his favorite

(40:33):
songs and stands there dancingfor 40 minutes and it's like
barely, barely, a blip.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Like normally that the Wall Street Journal did you
see their headline for it?
No, I don't want to.
Town hall ends in concert.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
What.
So I have an incredible amountof criticism that I believe
needs to get out there.
That is deserved, and a lot ofit is just like an ambient sense
of Trump is graded on adifferent set of rules than
everybody else.
That said, overall I am less ofa media critic overall because
the media is not one thing.

(41:11):
There is incredibly great, likeworld-changing, like some of
the best media that's everexisted uh, out there right now.
Now much of it is behindpaywalls and maybe 0.5 percent
of swing voters ever see it.
There's also some of the worst,most biased Sinclair stuff

(41:33):
being beamed into people's homesfor free, and that is that is a
huge problem.
So, you know, the media is alot of things.
Overall, the individualreporters I know are generally
well-meaning, they're rigorous,they're not biased and there are
obviously exceptions to that,but they are existing within

(41:55):
this system.
That just has, you know, hugeproblems.
That said, I also think it's areal problem if Democrats spend
all their time on Twittercriticizing the New York Times
when the New York Times is notread by swing voters in any of
these states, not that you knowthat's funny.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
I've I've been on Twitter more and I'm like, and
I'm like why?
But then I'm like I, but it'slike you kind of need to know,
right, yeah, yeah, you know it'slike I, but knowing, going in,
that you know like 40 percent ofthe accounts are Russian bots
and you know they're throttlingaccounts, like that part of it's
important, otherwise I'd belosing my mind.

(42:35):
But but knowing hearing whatpeople are saying and seeing
this debate, but then takingcomfort, knowing like I'll be
doom scroll until three in themorning, but I'm like the good
news is, like you know, hardlyany voters are actually on here.
This is such a very niche.
But I'm like the good news is,like you know, hardly any voters
are actually on here.
This is such a very niche group.
I'm sure that that's what letsme probably get to sleep.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, and number one, I will say like I do as I say,
not as I do, like I am onTwitter way more than I should
be.
But number one, I always saylike Twitter is not a voter
focus group.
Right, you're not learning whatthe voters believe on here, but
you are learning the sort ofsoup that a lot of the media
lives in.

(43:13):
And like it's important to knowlike what they're seeing, what
sort of fake, not real vocal,like small groups of vocal
people on Twitter is likeinfluencing people.
And you know, being aware ofthat matters.
Yeah, you know, I aware of thatmatters.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah, you know, I look at going through Twitter
and that kind of stuff is likeit's like raw polling data,
right.
Yeah, it can tell you a lot ifyou know how to read it, and if
you don't, you're going to domore harm than good.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
You know and I guess that's kind of an inside thing
if you've never tried to readpolling data or crosstabs.
But you know, and so let me askone more thing I want to get to
before we're done.
I'm going to save it for aminute, but one question before
that is.
So much talk about polls.
My thought is they're allwithin the margin of error and
we've gotten to this idea wherewe let it become an average of
polls.
So you're seeing so muchgarbage put in.

(44:00):
Is there, from your perspective?
Do you give any credence topolls in general I know there's
some better than others credenceto polls in general?
I know there's some better thanothers.
And do you think there's amethod to the madness of trying
to flood the field with thesepro-Trump polls?

Speaker 2 (44:12):
If you're a voter, don't do what I do.
Don't stay on Twitter untilthree in the morning and then
don't get up at six in themorning and check Pennsylvania
polls every morning.
You'll drive yourself insane.
That said, that's exactly whatI do.
So I will say the flooding.
There's a lot of things that thetrump campaign is doing right

(44:32):
now where they are trying inadvance to create a circumstance
where they can say the electionwas stolen, yes.
Now is how many of these pollsare directly related to that?
How many of them are republicanpollsters just trying to get
their name in the news?
You know how much is this partof his strategy?
How much is just helpful tothem?

(44:54):
It's hard to say, but I thinkthere is a real incentive for
Republicans to kind of, you know, put these bull polls into the
average.
That said, like I am also likeif Democratic voters are more
anxious about the said like I amalso like if Democratic voters
are more anxious about theelection, like I think that
helps us in terms of turnout.
It doesn't help.

(45:15):
It doesn't help anybody, youknow, find the truth of the
matter.
Or like sleep better at night.
But as a practitioner, Ibelieve that poll, that polls
are extremely important, like I,directionally important.
They help you see trends thatare happening, even if the raw
numbers are difficult, you know,difficult to really trust.

(45:36):
You can see, you know opinionschange, you can see different
demographics move in a way thatis only important if you're
somebody like me who's liketrying to direct 50 million
dollars and spending to theright spot, where it's not going
to be wasted.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
That is not most people, yeah right, but you
think to some extent the tailwags the dog a little bit, so
like if, if you know they'relike oh well, it's, it's.
It's a 50 50 race.
So trump must be, must not beas terrible as everybody's
saying, because if half thepeople in the country are for
him, he must not be too bad.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
So maybe I should be potentially, but would I prefer
a world where Trump and we livedin this world in 2020 to some
extent, where Trump is behindsix or seven points when in
reality, the polls areinaccurate and he's only behind
by one Like that is not alsogreat either.
Like there's, there'sadvantages and disadvantages,
but the fact is we live in aworld where getting a

(46:31):
representative sample for a pollis virtually impossible, like
it is.
Try to get a representativesample of trump voters.
Like they're not answering thephones.
They don't trust you.
Like anybody you do get inthere who is a trump voter is
probably not representative ofother Trump voters.
It is just very difficult andthere are techniques for dealing

(46:51):
with it, but it is.
You know it's difficult andit's difficult to understand the
size of the error bars on thisdata and which parts of the data
are questionable.
So I'd say it's like it'suseful for professionals and you
can drive yourself crazy as avoter looking at this stuff.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
So this gets me into the last thing.
We've kind of gonechronologically the ramp up.
We're at the election.
Let's talk about the end gamehere, and the end game of what I
guess is to be determined.
But you touched on it and therewas a Rolling Stone piece
yesterday that kind of said theout loud part even louder about

(47:28):
Trump's plan.
It's not the four attorneys inhis orbit and the plan is to
immediately declare a victory onelection night.
Yeah, and the pieces that arecoming into place, you know, you
see, in Virginia, where theywaited to purge the voter voter
rolls, so they knew it would bescaled back.
So then they could say, youknow they could be aggrieved,

(47:48):
right, you know they could beaggrieved, right?
You know, oh, they kept 90,000people, they wouldn't let us
take these illegals andwhatever's off the rolls.
Pennsylvania, pre-canvassingyou know Governor Shapiro says
they're not going to be able,we're not going to have these
done on election night becausethe Republicans, they killed the
bill that was sitting in theSenate right now that would
allow for seven-daypre-canvassing.

(48:08):
And then they immediately andthis is where Twitter can be
useful, because you see wherethe reactionaries are going is
well, that's it, right there,because it sounds like Trump's
idea.
He's doing the same thing inWisconsin.
The idea is they're playing tothe lowest common denominator.
I was winning when the pollsclosed.
Yep, and I think this is wherethe polling comes into play, is

(48:30):
I think and this is just?
I have no science to back thisup.
My gut is, if votes were to becounted right now and a winner
is determined on who won the gotthe most votes which I know is
a novel concept, but I think shewins by two and a half to three
points in Pennsylvania Yep, Ireally ends up with what I think

(49:04):
.
And if that happens, but a bulkof those votes are male and
Therefore those are illegitimatevotes.
The polls showed otherwise.
Because people don't realizethat polls aren't the most
accurate thing in the world andthat's going to be their move to
.
You know, there are theseextremists, like in the Michael
Flynn world that are.
The plan is very simple and theRolling Stone article laid it
out.
The plan is to get the statelegislatures to award the

(49:26):
electoral votes on their own, isto get the state legislatures
to award the electoral votes ontheir own.
I mean it's insane, but at thispoint we're at the limits of
insane.
I'd love to get your thoughtson, kind of generally, where I
think November 5th is when thisstarts, not when it ends, kind
of like where you think we'regoing and maybe more importantly
, not that your opinion doesn'tmatter but in talking to folks,

(49:47):
how aware are people in thesefocus groups of where we're at
and how dangerous of a placewe're at?
Like are they like?
Do people get it or not?

Speaker 2 (49:56):
There's a wide mix in how much the average voter gets
it.
Many of them do not, but a lot,like more than many people would
expect saw January 6th forexactly what it was and were
profoundly disturbed by it.
And those people, you know aredisproportionately voters in
this country, like people whoyou know are disproportionately
voters in this country, likepeople who care about democracy

(50:17):
are also people who go out tovote.
So what they're trying to do inmy mind, you can see the way
they're lining this up.
They're lining up rhetoric andthey're lining up an argument
they can make to the public.
They're not lining up really away to like win court cases on
the merits right.
That is not that make to thepublic.
They're not lining up really away to like win court cases on
the merits right.

(50:37):
That is not.
That's not the strategy they'redoing.
What they're trying to do isbuy pr cover for the state,
legislate, state legislators for, you know, maybe, in certain
places, secretaries of state,although they got wiped out in a
lot of these secretary of statechoices to do things that
ultimately, like in a normalenvironment, would not be

(50:58):
accepted.
Now we saw this in 2020 and therule of law helped, in some
cases barely, and there is thereal potential once again, if
they're doing this essentiallyPR strategy, that they will once
again drive people to targetedviolence against Right.

Speaker 1 (51:15):
So I you know one of the guys that I, you know.
I heard this Ivan Rakin.
I you know.
I just stumbled into this videoof him the other night giving a
speech in Pennsylvania in whichhe laid it all out and he said
look, when this, when theelection stolen right foregone
conclusion when the electionstolen, december 1st is a day
that matters because that's whenthe new legislature takes
effect in Pennsylvania, whichisn't exactly true, but whatever

(51:38):
.
And he said we will have to goto the state capitol and
convince them.
And then he elaborated.
He said we need to make thosespineless Republican senators do
the right thing.
Yeah, and I was like they'rebasically making it clear, like
they don't even care about whatthe democrats are gonna do.

(51:58):
Their their whole thing isputting the pressure on the
republicans.
Yep, and I, I think that we areall so exhausted, and voters
obviously not people like you,but voters as well we just want
it all to be over.
Yep, and I think that what Ireally worry about is that when
they think it's over, it's notgoing to be over because the

(52:20):
other side won't let it be, andthat's when we're gonna have to
really kind of dig in our heels.
And this is where I think themedia really is how the media
covers this.
Yeah, what happens next?

Speaker 2 (52:31):
you can't both Like right.
This is about hearts and minds.
That's where they're fightingit, At least.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
Exactly and right who .
You know?
I was looking at it like this.
To me, the thing that brokeTrump's back in 2020 was when
Fox News called Arizona.
Yeah, that was it Right, thatwas the way that, at least.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
And you're like, well , ok, like, and my question is
like I almost feel like I haveto watch Fox on election night
this year.
Right, because that's the,that's the bar.
You look at a place likeNewsmax, which ultimately saw
massive legal repercussions fromthe way they covered the
election.
I think, to some extent, like Ido not want to vouch here for
like the integrity of the peopleat Fox News, but they do care

(53:29):
about dollars and I think theyare chastised by the potential
of losing another billiondollars to a to a court
settlement that goes the wrongway.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
It'll be fascinating with with Kamala Harris agreed
to do an interview on Fox.
Yeah, because you, like, Ireally feel like Trump, anything
less than them getting on thereand like calling her every
horrible name in the book likeslurs like you know what I mean
Like he's got to want to go allthe way.
Anything short of that is goingto be seen as betrayal.
Lures.
You know what I mean.
He's going to want to go allthe way.
Anything short of that is goingto be seen as betrayal and it's
going to be, like I said, thebest funneries the Democrats
could ever or the Republicanscould ever have.

(54:00):
If they charge Democrats towatch a live stream of Trump
watching that interview, they'dmake a billion dollars, because
I'd want to see anything.
Close the money gap right there.
Right, right, and so it isfascinating.
Even in recent interviews, youknow, they it does feel like
there's a higher level ofawareness of like it's almost
like it's like Trump, we'retrying to help you, but he
doesn't even get that, and likeyou've taken as a far like well,

(54:23):
we can't go along with this.
But like I wonder, for example,like if Trump, at some point do
they stop giving him theamplifier of a voice Right, like
at some point do you stop theamplifier of a voice right, like
at some point do you stop andI'm talking about now, but after
the election, if he's justgoing to get up there and incite
violence, at what point doesthe media say maybe we shouldn't
be carrying this to the country?

Speaker 2 (54:43):
It's so he's back on Twitter.
He still has Drew Social, so tosome extent he will have a
megaphone.
Now it is difficult to imagine,like fox news cutting him off.
But no right, it was.
It was difficult to imagine foxnews cutting off tucker carlson
and they did um, which I don'tpretend to understand, what led

(55:06):
to that, but like, look, it'spossible, it could happen again.
I am not counting on it, uh, byany stretch.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
Well, I'm thinking more along the lines of, like
your major deficits right.
At some point today, you knowwe'll run a scroll saying you
know, I think that that's goingto really use it.
You can't both sides of this,because the second you do that
you really kind of lost rightand we've learned you and I'm
assuming you, I know I wasaround long enough to see what
happened where all it took wasthat little bit.
And the thing that made methink about 2000 was watching

(55:35):
Karl Rove today doing aninterview in which he called the
January 6th people a bunch ofson of bitches who need to be
locked up.
And I'm like that's how farwe've come.
I'm like, yeah, you go, karlRove.
Like what, where are we atright now?
So one last question on this.
I know we have to go here in aminute, but yeah, so one last

(55:57):
question on this.
I know we have to go here in aminute, but knowing that we, you
don't want to, you don't wantto get people riled up, but it
seems to me the difference isthat previously it would always
be other people like we'regetting super worried and like
people like you and I like yousaid, practitioners, we were the
ones that would like calmeverybody down.
Right, feels like if thiselection is almost the inverse,
yeah, you know we're like, oh,this is, we've really gone in
some weird places.
We got to be careful yeahknowing that and knowing that

(56:19):
we're going to be one way oranother.
This is not going to be easy.
Like no matter what, it may notbe the end, end of the world,
but like it's not going to beeasy.
Do you envision and do youthink there's a place for, like
your organization, to thencontinue the messaging beyond
election?
Yes, 100% at all.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Yes, and it is important.
That's going to be an all handson deck thing, like.
So the most important thing wedid is, like 2022, we pulled out
all the stops for the firsttime and made sure that you know
all these states arizona w um,it's down the line had
democratic secretaries of statewin to be overseeing these

(57:00):
elections in the first place.
So that's sort of when itstarted.
But, yeah, after, like I work,I work with some of those groups
.
I know exactly what you'retalking about.
Yeah, yeah, uh, after electionday, it's like Trump is playing
this as an earned media.
Hearts and minds.
Like we're going to win themandate of the people and we'll
backfill the law with whateverwe can get Republican

(57:20):
legislators to do.
Like that is a real problemthat's going to be fought out
every day.
Like we need to be making surethat.
Like people understand thathe's lying, that, uh, they're
disenfranchising millions ofvoters, and there will like we
will not have the majority ofthe Republican establishment
backing us on this, but therewill be some of them who will

(57:42):
stand up to Trump.
You know, like I don't want tosay nice things about Brian Kemp
.
He did it in 2020.
There will be others like that.
We need to bring those peopleinto the fold, make sure that we
can stand up for democracy whenit's like under its greatest
attack.

Speaker 1 (57:57):
Right, I, yeah, I don't think there'll ever be a
better uh test than all you know, for you know kind of really
see who's.
You know who's who who everytime I'm being a Patriot.
Right, let's Like for theseRepublicans and I, you know
they're up.
I think they're up late atnight for different reasons than
we are.
Yeah, because they know there'sa reckoning coming for them.

(58:19):
Right, like, you know the, youknow the, the.
The uprising is coming frominside the house and you can
skate along for a long time, butthere's a point where the
rubber is going to meet the roadand I think you and I are kind
of feeling the same way thatthat point is coming.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
Yep, and those folks are afraid of the Trump base,
Like you saw during the Trumpadministration.
You would have on backgroundRepublican legislators saying I
would stand up to him but Iworry for my family.
Like that was a real quote.
That like came out consistently.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
We saw that here in Pennsylvania when Brian Cutler,
who sat in front of me for likefour years on the House floor,
where we were both rank and fileand he's a speaker and he's a
very conservative Republican,but he's like a good human being
, yeah, you get to know thesepeople and you're like, okay,
this is not a, he's a good guyat the end of the day.
And he refused, as we'velearned, he refused to go along

(59:09):
with it and it wasn't widelyreported, but there were people
showing up outside his house andhe has young kids and yeah, um,
as a parent, I don't know howanybody could be I couldn't do
that job today, I don't knowterrified to do it the right way
.
Yeah, right to do it, to be anadvocate for the things you
believe in.
It's it's it's only been 10years and it's such a different

(59:31):
world.
It's.
It's unbelievable, um, but no,I think that I think you nailed
it on the head and it's such adifferent world.
It's unbelievable, but no, Ithink you nailed it on the head.
It's encouraging for me to knowthat the people that are being
have such an important role inshaping the narrative,
especially talking to the people, that when you know, we're
going to be going to some choppywaters here and they may not

(59:51):
know what to think because it'sgoing to be hitting them all at
once from all angles and it'sgoing to be different and to
help provide some clarity in away, like I almost feel like the
water is going to be rising andeverybody's going to be, you
know, finding a way to maybelike quietly slip a lifeline.
Here's a life fest.
I'm going to talk to you in away that you I know you need,

(01:00:11):
you need to you're going tounderstand and and help that.
You know, britain, thatmessaging which will then have a
cumulative impact.
I think that's so incrediblyimportant, and the fact that
people like you and yourorganization are planning for
that and are cognizant of it.
It will actually let me maybeget to bed a little early
tonight, so I thank you for that.

(01:00:32):
Good, I'm hoping I'll be able totake a vacation by january, but
we'll see yeah well, or maybeit'll be taking a forced one
somewhere, right, exactly sowell, excellent, why we catch a
little bit longer?
But, um, I thank you so much.
Um, is there anything you wantto?
You want to send anybody to tolearn more or donate or do
whatever?

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
please, it's, it's all yours american bridge on
twitter americanbridgeAmericanBridgePackorg.
I'm Pat Dennis on Twitter, butif we're doing our jobs, you'll
see our work without having todo anything.
It'll come to you.
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
Pat, thank you so much for everything.
I'll put links to everything inthe notes.
This has been the KeystoneReckoning Podcast.
I'm Jesse White.
Keep it up.
We're almost there and we justgot to.

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