June 24, 2024 • 39 mins
Leadership isn’t something you do—it’s who you are.
In this episode of Kick It Open, host Shelby Nicholl sits down with Sheila Bast, a leadership coach with the Cohen Leadership Group, to explore what it truly means to embody leadership in all aspects of life—not just at work.
Sheila shares her personal journey in financial services and her passion for developing real leaders—not just performers. Together, they dive into key leadership traits like influence, executive presence, and empathy, while breaking down the difference between “acting” like a leader in certain moments versus being a leader all the time—whether you're in the boardroom or ordering coffee. Because leadership isn’t situational—it’s a mindset and presence you carry everywhere.
This episode also unpacks:
✅ How to navigate organizational politics and the glass cliff phenomenon
✅ The differences between male and female leadership styles
✅ Practical steps to level up in leadership roles
✅ Why mentorship and sponsorship are critical for career growth
Plus, Sheila shares her favorite leadership reads and the quote that defines her approach: “We convince by our presence.” by Walt Whitman
If you're ready to stop performing leadership and start being a leader in every part of life, this conversation is a must-listen.
Recommended Resources
Sheila suggests a few books during the episode:
· Finding Time to Lead by Leslie Peters: A short, insightful read on the shifts necessary for leveled-up leadership.
· Dare to Lead by Brené Brown: A profound exploration of vulnerability and authentic leadership.
Schedule a discovery call with Shelby Nicholl: Zoom Scheduler
Produced by Shelby Nicholl.
Edited by Aaron Sherman.
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/ra/let-good-times-roll License code: EV5ON7Y3CSESDSEU
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
My personal belief is that leadership is a state of
being.
It's who we are and it isinfluencing through interactions
that we have day to day.
So whether that is the personat Starbucks you go in to pick
up your coffee and how youinteract with them, to somebody
at work.
So the way I think aboutleadership is truly a way of
(00:22):
being and not necessarily atitle by itself or all those
leadership tasks that peopleoften talk about.
This just becomes how you areand how you conduct yourself,
and it's not an overnight switch.
It takes intentionality, butyou get to a point where,
ideally, it's not a switch to beturned on, it's just part of
(00:44):
who you are.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Hi, I'm Shelby Nickel .
Have you ever had a greatconversation with a colleague or
a girlfriend and you leave withan energy, boost of inspiration
, ready to fight another day?
Me too, and that feeling wasthe inspiration for this podcast
.
I'm a 25-year corporate veteranwho climbed the corporate
ladder to reach top levels attwo broker-dealers and often I
(01:12):
found myself being the onlywoman in the room.
I saw women advisors andcorporate leaders burned out,
overlooked and generally wantingto have more impact.
And it's not just about us whowork within the wealth
management industry.
It's about the untappedpotential of women as investors.
In this podcast, we tell thestories of women who are winning
clients, leading organizations,doing things differently and
(01:36):
bringing new energy to theirwork.
There's a quote that inspiresme by Muriel Siebert, the first
woman member of the NYSE.
She said when a door is hard toopen and nothing else works,
sometimes we just have to rearback and kick it open.
Welcome to the Muriel NetworkKick it Open podcast.
(02:04):
Welcome everyone to the Kick itOpen podcast, where we kick the
doors open on women's success.
Today we're talking aboutleadership and what it means to
lead ourselves, our team membersand our clients.
I'm joined today by Sheila Bast, a longtime friend and former
colleague.
We worked together for manyyears at Edward Jones and I have
(02:24):
been so lucky to know her.
People in the St Louis areaknow and love Sheila.
She is known for her leadershipand I'm delighted to have her
on the podcast today.
Sheila, tell us about yourcareer journey and what you're
up to now.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, so good to be here.
Shelby and I am remembering oneof the first times we worked on
a project together when we weretraveling for focus groups.
That feels like forever ago,but oh how much has changed and
it's so exciting.
So a little bit about me.
I, like you, have been infinancial services for gosh
probably up to 18 years, servingin various different business
(03:00):
roles, a lot on the productmanagement side, and continue to
follow my passion for peopledevelopment and leadership
development, which is what I doI get to do now completely is
something that startedformulating really early on,
before I was a people leader.
When I became a people leader,I then applied it through
(03:20):
specific change management work,working on enterprise level
changes and now have theopportunity to be a consultant
and a coach and in the space ofleadership development at the
Cohen Leadership Group.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
That's great and I think I remember that exact trip
.
I remember being at an airportrestaurant was one of the
strongest memories I have fromthat trip.
Restaurant was one of thestrongest memories I have from
that trip, and you were alwaysso dedicated to empowering your
people to achieve their verybest.
Tell us what you think of asleadership.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, so leadership is a topic that I think in the
media and when people like readabout it, hear about it,
sometimes gravitate towards.
It's a title Leadership meansI'm the VP of something, I'm
leading a team of people and ofcourse, in those scenarios,
absolutely you are leadingpeople.
But my personal belief is thatleadership is a state of being,
(04:18):
it's who we are and it isinfluencing through interactions
that we have day to day.
So, whether that is the personat Starbucks you go in and pick
up your coffee and how youinteract with them, to somebody
at work.
So the way I think aboutleadership is truly a way of
being and not necessarily atitle by itself or all those
(04:41):
leadership tasks that peopleoften talk about.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
That's interesting.
We did a podcast recently onexecutive presence with Jackie
Nolhoff.
Executive presence is also away of being.
How do you think aboutexecutive presence versus
leadership?
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah.
So I don't think it's like aneither, or I think it's an, and
so when I think of leadershippresent, it really is, I think,
bringing your fullest bell, tolike how you're showing up, and
that all starts with your belief, right, what you align to, and
then how are you conductingyourself in that way?
(05:17):
Executive present is a part ofthat.
It's then how are youpresenting yourself?
And maybe some of the moretraditional, like how you
present, how you introduceyourself, but to me, leadership
is like that umbrella in thebroadest sense of how you make
people feel.
How do you make people feel andhow do you influence?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
There is that kind of Venn diagram of the traits and
as you just, and you just landedon it in the very last word.
You said it's how do youinfluence?
I think at executive presence,like the goal is to influence
something and the goal as aleader is to influence something
.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
And I think that's where that's something that I
hope people take away too isthat everyone can be a leader.
It's choosing to be a leader,it's recognizing your ability to
influence and doing itintentionally.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, I love that recognizing your ability to
influence, because we do allhave it and we just have to turn
it on, sometimes Absolutely.
You have to choose it.
How did you decide that yourgift to share with the world was
leadership coaching?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I did not know that I wanted to be a leadership coach
.
But as I think about my careerearly on to now, even how I am
with my own circle and myfriends, I've always been
somebody who wants to learnabout people, their lives,
what's going well, what's notgoing well, and I either always
wanted to be there for thesupport system if somebody was
(06:41):
going through a hard time, bothat work and with my friends, but
also their biggest cheerleader.
So anytime somebody I would talkto would talk about oh, I can't
do that or that's never goingto happen, and my instinct, my
gut instinct, is, yes, you cando that.
(07:02):
So I feel like I was doing thatearly on.
And then I actually had acolleague of mine say to me who
I didn't know super well atfirst, and they said you have
this way about you when you talkto people, you make them feel
like they're the most importantperson and to me that was
probably the greatest complimentI've ever received and to me
that is the type of leadership Ilike to embody and, as a result
(07:23):
, have been applying it in a waythat I hope helps others
achieve their greatestleadership potential.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Oh, that's.
That is such a great compliment.
Absolutely, and I can attest tothat as well that you make
people feel that way.
I can only imagine how yourteam members felt that support
and also what you just described.
There was both support for themand cheerleading for them, but
also a very high empathyAbsolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
I think empathy is so key when it comes to being a
leader and don't get me wrong,it's not all one way or the
other.
I'm sure people listening,maybe thinking what about the
results?
And I think there's so manystudies and research that now
show that if you care for peopleand they feel they your result,
(08:08):
they will come in and compoundright.
It's that innovation thathappens as a result.
It's that trust that thenempowers people, that leads to
those really strong results.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
That's great.
So your full-time gig obviouslyis leadership coaching, and
this podcast is all aboutwomen's success specifically.
What are differences betweenmen and women as leaders?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
There's so much on this topic isn't there.
And I love this focus throughthis podcast because, yes, there
are certain characteristicsthat tend to be a little bit
more common with men.
Women, for example.
It is that empathy, it's thatinterpersonal relationships,
it's women's desire to want tocreate a more cooperative,
collaborative environment.
(08:53):
On the flip side, when peoplethink of male leaders, they
often think of the assertiveness, the task orientation, the just
focus on the results.
The other way I think about itis I talked earlier about
leadership as being.
There's being leadership andthere's doing leadership.
And in thinking about thisquestion between men and women,
(09:17):
again I'm going to say there'salways a caveat to this.
Right, you have men that arealso empathetic, but if you just
think about it in this sense,there's being leadership, which
is what we talked about earlier,and there's doing it, and those
are some of the differencesthat I see pretty clearly
through the work that I do nowand how that then leads to, how
(09:38):
they can lead themselves to thenlead others and, ultimately,
the business that they're in.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I love that idea of being leadership and doing
leadership.
So being leadership is I'mshowing up at the Starbucks as a
leader.
It's how I'm interacting allthe time, because I'm just
embodying and really feelingthat leadership within me.
Tell me about doing leadership.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, it's the checklist of to-dos that people
think of doing leadership.
If you ignore the beingleadership and you're just
focused on the task of the doingyou're, you are less likely
able to influence in the waythat you're looking to influence
, whether it's an idea, aninitiative or it's also people.
Just checking the box and doingyour performance review as an
(10:40):
example or making the decision,is not necessarily going to.
It doesn't enable you to embodythe larger leadership presence
that you're probably looking toembody.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, I think this is really interesting something.
I hadn't really thought aboutthose distinctions until now.
When you think about thosedistinctions, I think for many
of us it's really easy to do theactivities of a leader.
I'm going to show up, I'm goingto run this meeting, I'm going
to do the performance reviews,like you mentioned.
I'm going to give the salaryincreases, check all the
assignments and make sureeverybody is doing what they're
(11:10):
supposed to be doing and thatthey've got the support they
need.
Those are the doing activities.
Then there is the trueinfluence.
I wonder if sometimes, whenwomen are being dinged for not
having executive presence, ifthey're really not embodying
full leadership yet.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I wonder about that, and that's something that comes
up when I work with individuals.
As women, I would say noteverybody, but a lot of us are
like we got to get all thethings done.
We got to make sure we're therefor our people.
We're getting our work done.
We're checklisting all over theplace and sometimes the to-dos.
We all talk about our mindracing all the time the to-dos
overtake us, showing up, havinga wider perspective of things,
(11:52):
taking a step back.
It's navigating uncertainty.
There's other things that arein addition to just being.
It's your authentic self plus.
It's embracing thosenon-checklist items that come
with true leadership.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I think it's also that calming force of it, and
then also knowing how to playthe politics a little bit as
well.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
right, it's navigating, not going to exist
as humans, having any hierarchyanywhere.
We know that politics is justsometimes it gets like that ugly
bad word, but it's just like itis what it is when you have a
structure.
So to me and I think about my,what I do now and what I did as
a business leader it's how doyou navigate?
How do you navigaterelationships, how do you
(12:39):
navigate an organizationalstructure?
And for some it can feel reallyenergy draining and depleting,
and so it's easier to do some ofthose other checklist-y items.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yes, absolutely.
I like that reframe of politicsto just navigating
relationships, navigating theorganization.
That really makes it feel a lotless cumbersome and a lot less,
maybe anti-person in some way,I would assume that a lot of
people think of the wordpolitics and they just feel like
(13:10):
icky to them.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I don't want to do that, I don't have time, I don't
have energy.
Now there's other people thatwill lean in and they love it.
For women it becomes.
It can be harder to go againstthe grain when you're already
feeling like in the certaincertainly in the financial
services industry.
You're not one of many incertain realms.
That's right, so we can alreadyfeel difficult and have this
connotation of what politicsrepresents to people who are
(13:33):
like I can't deal with that, Idon't have the energy for that.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, I talk about it on so many podcasts, but
there's this idea of the doublebind, of course, and we all know
that for women, and we can't betoo aggressive, we still have
to have the high empathy, etc.
And so it's interesting becausethere's a technique of framing
where you can reframe yourstatement and present actually a
(13:57):
framing statement around yourpoint.
So things like I feel reallystrongly about this because it's
a matter of integrity.
Therefore, I think we should doABC right, but if you frame up
that statement, you giveyourself permission to speak
more openly in those moments,and to me, that's kind of part
of this navigating theorganizational norms and
navigating the relationships.
(14:19):
It is a little political, butit's playing into this executive
presence, leadership presenceidea.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Absolutely and I think probably somewhere in that
framework.
Right is it's giving yourselfpermission to acknowledging this
, whatever feeling you're having, but then whatever it is that
you're trying to say or contestor whatever, you're saying it in
a pretty objective way, right?
Whatever the thing is from anobjective point of view is not
(14:47):
working and it's not anemotional thing, it just is,
it's an observable thing that'sright and putting it in those
observable terms will remove itfrom your point of view.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
and just to your point something that's happening
, that's great.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
And it takes practice .
Speaker 2 (15:02):
but it does, it does and it tips on that Practice.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I think the same thing with leadership too.
I'll just add that it's not asif you decide you want to become
a leader and you do all thesethings that you think you're
supposed to do as a leader youread books, you take classes,
you talk to people and all of asudden you're there.
I would encourage individualsto think about leadership.
This is a lifelong practice andit will evolve based on the
(15:29):
types of roles you're taking on,and practice is practice.
It's going out there, it'strying a thing.
It's not beating yourself upwhen it's not going as you
thought, figuring out what youcould do differently and going
back at it.
Sofa when it's not going as youthought, figuring out what you
could do differently and goingback at it.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
One of the things that I have seen many of my
colleagues and peers incorporate land do is take on
whole new challenges and theyreally are going to level up
their leadership.
What advice do you have forsomeone who is going through a
kind of level up moment?
Speaker 1 (16:04):
First of all, when it's in those situations where
somebody's raised their hand todo it, congratulations, because
it takes a certain amount ofvulnerability, courage, strength
, all those things to say, hey,I'm going to do this bigger role
here.
And even when it's not righteither way, you're getting into
a situation where you don't knowwhat all you're getting into
and there's high stakes and itfeel chaotic.
(16:28):
I don't know how much some ofthe listeners are thinking about
.
There's also this thing calledthe last cliff phenomenon.
It's the situation where, intimes of crisis, something's
going awry.
Oftentimes women are gettingput into these leadership
positions to navigate through it.
Yes, and so not another versionof what you're saying, whether
(16:49):
you choose it or you don't.
But what I would say is I goback to being versus doing.
Regardless of how big the rolefield, how chaotic things are,
how high stakes it is, giveyourself permission to be
intentional when you get in,recognize the scenario.
What's the environment of thisrole?
The good, the bad, thein-between, if this is even a
(17:10):
possibility.
It's asking what is theexpectation here, and I know
it's hard to do that.
I know it feels hard becausethere may be people who feel
like I should know what I'msupposed to do.
I know what the role is, butespecially when we talk about
women, not maybe getting thatfirst leadership role or
whatever next leadership roleSometimes, was that performance
evaluation criteria even clearerto begin with?
(17:32):
What does good look like?
What does success look like?
It's asking the question,getting really clear.
It's leaning on your supportsystem, if you have one.
So maybe this is a brand newcompany and you can still have a
support system right outside ofthe company you're in, or it's
your existing and it's not beingafraid to ask for help.
I know that is hard to do, butwe are all human and taking on
(17:55):
these really big roles is not ofthe faint of heart.
It takes a lot of mental andphysical energy.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
That's right.
I think of a couple of things.
Come to my mind with it, too,is when the negotiation podcasts
that we recently launched.
There was a lot of talk therearound the academic research for
women as we negotiate and whatwas interesting about it is that
, as long as we framed it up andmade it part of the bigger
picture, that we were reallysuccessful.
(18:22):
But the other thing was that wecould and we should make our
best performance level and theconditions that enable us to
best perform part of thenegotiation.
So we are negotiating for theitems or the resources or the
whatever that will enable us tobe performing at our highest
(18:45):
level with the lowest stress,absolutely.
Which I just never thought of inthat terminology.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
And I don't want to speak for everyone out there,
but I can speak for myself.
Whenever I was put into a newand different role which
happened often my naturalinstinct was to get in and start
doing.
When I reflect back, I wantednothing more than to get in
there and immediately startadding value, without taking
that pause to recognize thescenario and to your point.
(19:15):
It's negotiating for what youknow you need, because what
happens when you don't have theresources?
It's negotiating for what youknow you need, because what
happens when you don't have theresources?
Now you start doing things yes,because it's needed that you
probably shouldn't be doing.
That is not necessarilyforwarding your level of
leadership right and whateverinitiative or team that needs to
be propelled forward there yeah, and it can be really to your
(19:39):
point earlier about asking forhelp.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It can be difficult to ask for help.
To your point earlier aboutasking for help it can be
difficult to ask for help, butthe point is you're asking for
help in order to do somethingbigger for the organization.
That's for the organization'sbenefit, not your own.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, and if we can remind ourselves that is what
that is, maybe it'll be easierfor everyone to be able to ask
that question more freely.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I do think, as we continue to go up the ladder, we
see these jumps in ourleadership, and a jump might be,
for example, leading a team of,say, 10 to then leading a team
of 100 or 400.
And we have to make significantchanges in, maybe, how we
manage.
Maybe it's not how we lead, butit's how we manage.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (20:19):
It's funny the word manage, like when we were
talking earlier about being anddoing.
I also think a synonym to doingis managing and leading are two
different things.
They're related.
They do need to go together insome way.
Given your role, you might havebeen somebody who was what you
call a player coach.
You're engaged in some parts ofthe work and you're leading a
(20:42):
team, inherent in that you'redoing some of the stuff.
When you're then leading from10 to you said, 500, whatever it
is, that really has to bethought about in a totally
different way.
Some other shifts that I thinkabout with leadership is if we
go from doing to being.
Another shift would be fromknowing to understanding, from
(21:06):
knowing to understanding.
Oftentimes, individuals whocontinue to get promoted into
leadership because they're goodat something right, they've
demonstrated success butcontinuing to be the doer and
then also being able to level upleadership can become at odds
with each other.
So how can you go from likeknowing all the things all the
(21:28):
time to understanding what's theamount that you need to know in
order to help, enable and guideyour large organization?
So that's another shift, andthen the other one that comes to
mind and, by the way, thiscomes from this book called
Finding Time to Lead.
It's by Ludley Peters shortbook and so many good nuggets in
(21:50):
it and they talk about thesethree shifts, and the third one
is from being reactive to beingresponsive.
And so, in this context and thereason why I love these shifts
so much is it is that, leveledup leader, you are at a much
higher level.
You're a CEO, you're overseeinghundreds of people.
(22:12):
Whatever it may be, you have toget comfortable.
What does that look like?
How are you being different?
What are you doing?
That's different.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
So I want to go back to what you were saying a moment
ago about managing and leading,because I know in my corporate
career I did get dinged on thisat one point and it was
incredibly frustrating to mebecause my leader at the time
was asking me really detailedquestions about the work that
was underway by the team and Iwas expected to have an answer
(22:44):
Right, and so I was.
I made care to know everythingthat was happening.
I was meeting with people oncea week to just make sure I was
up to date.
It's not like I was in theirdetails every day, but when it
came time for reviews and such,I was dinged for managing and
being too in the weeds versusleading and not being out of the
(23:07):
weeds, and so I was on thiscusp of that next level up, that
next jump up, but I was beingjudged against the future
standard while also having todeliver on the current standard
of knowing everything that wasgoing on.
Any advice for people navigatingthat middle shift.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
So it's tough.
First of all, let me justacknowledge that it's very tough
and there isn't any one way tojust eliminate it, because, at
the end of the day, there isthis we talk about FOMO fear of
missing out which, when youapply that to the professional
setting, it's like this feelingthat, no matter how high up a
leader is, they always like needto know the information.
(23:46):
But that can be at thedetriment of progress and
enabling individuals to feelempowered.
So how can we again, going backto that second shift, go from
knowing to understanding shift,go from knowing to understanding
?
How can we go from theday-to-day every nit and nat
detail to, if we know what theexpected results are, the
(24:08):
outcomes we're trying to achieve?
How is that going at a higherlevel, as opposed to did we do
this XYZ thing last week, Interms of how to navigate it, and
this can be really tough.
I think it's some of it is amatter of how comfortable can
you be having a difficultconversation with your leader
and, to your point, it canactually come back and affect
(24:31):
you in a way that your team issaying, oh my gosh, so-and-so is
just always asking me exactlywhat I'm doing.
I don't feel like they trust me.
So it has that negative effectthat we don't want to have on
our people, and so I think thebiggest thing that I would
recommend and I know it's notthe easy route is having the
courage to have a difficultconversation.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah, you have to go back to that leader and I didn't
do this at the time and say hey, you're asking me for all these
details over here.
I know you also want me and myteam to step up in leadership.
How do you want us to navigatethese two things that?
Speaker 1 (25:09):
are really at odds.
Yes, and it's a little bit, andthis is where the coaching side
is going to come out of me.
It's helped me understand.
Say more about whatever thedetail is.
What is it about that that youfeel like you need to know?
And so, who knows?
Maybe that person's leader isasking Maybe there's some type
of like distrust somewhere,maybe that there's all kinds of
(25:33):
reasons as to why thattranspires.
But even asking the question ofhelp me understand what
information you're needing thatyou're not getting, and then
let's figure out a way to do itin a way that still makes the
teams, the team of people, feelenabled and empowered to do that
.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, I like that, those lines, those very specific
questions that you just shared.
So let's talk a little bitabout advisors too, because
advisors, I think, have a reallyinteresting leadership place
right.
They are leading themselvesbecause they are usually tasked
(26:11):
with growing a business.
They might be leading big teamsof people as well, depending on
how their practice isstructured, and they're
certainly leading clients.
Their practice is structuredand they're certainly leading
clients.
What do you think of when youthink about those different
types or maybe manifestations ofleadership?
Speaker 1 (26:28):
All leading, as we talked about before, and it is
wearing different hats.
However, I think the goal hereis to show up as a leader in a
way that not all of these thingsfeel additive, if you will.
It's just a way of being that,regardless of what interaction
you're in whether it's sittingdown with a client to talk about
(26:49):
their account, or it's a teammember, or it's yourself it
doesn't feel like okay, I haveto shift gears.
I think, with leadership,connecting with people,
regardless of who that is yourpeers, your clients, those who
you're responsible to is alwaysgoing to be something that's
important as a leader.
So if you're someone who grows,develops and how you can
(27:13):
connect with people, you canapply that in most settings.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, I think of leadership a little bit as this.
Like armor I'm putting on,though, and what you're really
saying is it's not armor, it'sjust who you are and how you
show up every day, all the time.
So it's a growth orientation,it's this you've grown into a
leader and now, therefore, youare leader lead and that is that
(27:44):
of how you're showing up.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
and when you talked about armor, actually it
reminded me of Brene Brown'sDare to Lead book, and there's
that whole conversation aboutarmored and unarmored, which is
so interesting.
To take a step back and even asan individual as that, how am I
showing up?
And is the way that I'm showingup through either the tasks I'm
doing, how I'm addressingpeople, whatever it may be, the
(28:06):
characteristics that I'm showing?
Is that me?
Is that actually who I am?
Or am I putting on a quote,unquote armor and you're right,
that is how I think of that isit's unarmored.
You're an unarmored leaderregardless of the setting that
you're in.
Sometimes it's hard to puttactical tangibility to it, but
(28:29):
just think about anyone, anythink about any leader out there
, public figure, somebody youworked with.
What was it about them that,like, really made them stand out
to you as a leader?
Putting a title aside, thosecharacteristics, how they showed
up, how they responded versusreacted, this just becomes how
(28:51):
you are and how you conductyourself, and it's not an
overnight switch.
It takes intentionality, butyou get to a point where,
ideally, it's not a switch to beturned on, it's just part of
who you are.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I like that a lot and I think that if we can get to a
place of unarmored leadership,it also means that you have that
confidence and worthiness towhere you are comfortable with
that role.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yes, confidence is a big one that comes up a lot,
doesn't it?
I think it's really easy foranyone whether it's a new
leadership role, you're insomething different you're
taking on to all of a suddenstart questioning your own
competence, your ability to dosomething, and that all impacts
how you show up.
(29:39):
So confidence is such a bigfactor in your present.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
I've been reading the Jamie Kern Lima's book Worthy
and she was the creator of itCosmetics he talks about, and
there's many sort of publicfigures that feel this way,
where they may have highconfidence but low self-worth,
and so I think being able toturn up that self-worth and to
get past some of that baggagethat you have and then also then
(30:05):
bring that confidence furtherforward and really help you
embody I think this embodimentis something that I struggled
with for a long time of justembodying whatever it was that I
felt.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Myself included and it.
Also I have not read that book,although I'll add it to my list
.
When I think of worthiness, too, I wonder.
I think you were alluding tothis.
It's like I'm questioning if Ideserve this.
Yeah, I'm questioning if thiscontentment or happiness that I
feel is going to stay, or isthis like a fleeting thing and I
shouldn't get too attached tothings going?
Well, right, it's this.
(30:37):
We do that as humans.
We catastrophize a lot ofthings and we always are like
what's the worst?
This can't last, it's too good,that's right, or it can't be
this good for me and absolutelythat is going to take a toll on
confidence I talk a lot about itand that I had a career I could
never have dreamt of as a child.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
And I think many of us have because, as children,
our dreams are relatively benignas well and we don't realize,
sort of the scope of the worldand the scope of our own
competence and where our hardwork might take us.
We have the audacious goal ofclosing the gap, or helping to
close the gap, on women andsenior leadership in the wealth
(31:28):
management industry.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
What do women need to do differently to make it
inside of the corporate ranks ifthat's where they choose to
stay.
I would say first ask yourselfwhat you really want.
What is it that you really wantand why and I know that seems
really simple, but at least inmy case, I was so busy in the
doing.
I was so busy in the doing ontop of having, like many of us,
a very busy household and lifethat I didn't create the space
(32:00):
and time to reflect on what isit that I want and why do I want
it.
So then, what happened in mycase was I got to a point where
my North Star what I thought wasmy North Star became very fuzzy
and everything became startedto feel very draining.
So that's my very first thing.
Take a minute.
You may be feeling frustrated.
(32:22):
Whatever it is that you'refeeling is valid.
Ask yourself why and askyourself what you really want.
If it is to continue toprogress in the organization,
that's great.
And so then, how do you goabout doing that?
In sponsorship and alsomentorship, and those two are
different things, right?
So who is it that really cansponsor you?
(32:43):
And sponsoring means they'retalking about you when you don't
even know it in a real positiveway.
They're figuring out ways togive you stretch opportunities,
to give you roles or toinfluence that.
They're also in your corner.
They're folks that are maybespending their time with you,
giving you advice on what workedfor them, what didn't, but also
(33:06):
leaning into your story.
There's also sometimes whatgets in the way too is when you
have individuals, women, whomight be so status driven.
When I say status means liketitle right, Like you're going
for a certain role.
That's okay.
(33:26):
But when a status driven, itinherently comes this feeling of
but there's only so many rolesfor that, there's only this one
role, there's only this, so muchspace.
Then what starts to happen isthis growing competitiveness and
the way you start showing up,and is this growing
competitiveness and the way youstart showing up?
It takes away from yourleadership.
It takes away from the result.
(33:47):
But if you're focused on more,I'll say wealth, and wealth
isn't necessarily compensation,but it's like the whole package.
What am I doing all this for?
What is this affording me to do?
All through other parts of mylife, I think it starts to help
tilt people towards maybe morethat abundant mindset.
What are these winopportunities?
And I also think that lendsitself to women lifting up other
(34:10):
women.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
And I agree fully with what you've just said.
You mentioned sponsorship andmentorship, and the story that
popped into my head as youtalked about that was that when
Muriel Siebert went to get herseat on the New York Stock
Exchange, you had to literallybe sponsored by another member,
and so she had to go ask forsponsorship, and she had to ask
(34:33):
nine people before somebody saidyes.
But what I think is interestingis I remember being in
corporate that we at timesweren't supposed to ask for what
we wanted, and so I think yourfirst point of being really
clear about what you want, andthen the second point around
sponsorship, I think we reallyhave to find the right line
(34:54):
inside of our organizations, butat times we have to be more
bold than we think we should beor can be and ask for that help
too.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
We got to figure out a way to do it.
Yeah, we're going to.
Yeah, and in some organizationsthat may not be as welcome,
like you said, but we have topush on that because we won't
see the difference that we'retrying to like affect with
having more women in leadershiproles.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yeah, if we continue the way where we are right now.
Exactly and the numbers haven'tmoved in like a decade.
They're just not changing andthere's some data that's saying
that in the next coming yearswe're going to see C-suite even
decline because the next levelisn't there currently and I
think some of it is a little bitof blowback on asking it's some
folks dropping out of corporateranks just feeling like it's
too hard now.
The last point I wanted tomention was that and you alluded
(35:51):
to it as well is that I thinkwe have an opportunity to stop
the competition with each other.
We have an opportunity to getloud for each other too, to
really support and promote womenand let's celebrate each other.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
And just because we are acknowledging and
celebrating somebody elsedoesn't mean that takes away
opportunity for us.
And how much stronger could webe when we are going at it
together as opposed to againsteach other.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah, I think the last thing, and related to that,
is noticing our ownaccomplishments and saying that
one person said when you'rerunning into someone in the
hallway, right, you could be atan advisor office and or you
could be in a corporate ranks.
If somebody asks you how you'redoing, you should have a line
that says some bigaccomplishment that you've just
done, oh I'm doing great.
(36:40):
Did you hear I won that 20million dollar client?
Oh, I'm doing great.
Did you hear I won that $20million client?
Oh, I'm doing great.
Kelsey on our team got fundingfor a new tool, whatever it
might be.
So I think, maybe normalizing alittle bit of that
bragging-ness too Women don'ttend to do that we're never
going to be over the line onthis stuff.
People.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
We're just never.
We brag a little more than wehave been and we'll still be
open.
Acknowledgement and celebrating.
Celebrating accomplishmenthelps fuel progression.
It helps you show up as aleader.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
This has been such a greatconversation.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
What would you identify as some really key
resources for people to learnabout leadership and perhaps to
get to that embodied state yeah,there's so many leadership
books out there the one that Ireferenced earlier about the
shifts, especially for those whoare leveling up in leaders.
They're going from being theplayer coach, leader to now they
(37:37):
need to level up even more.
I definitely recommend theFinding Time to Lead book that I
mentioned.
I also love Dare to Lead forBrene Brown.
I think there's a lot thatcomes from being vulnerable,
which I know feels hard.
That then leads you to a placewhere you're okay.
It is okay.
(37:58):
It's normalizing, asking forthings and showing up in a
certain way, and that not onlyhelps you, but it's going to
help empower many people thatyou're going to be leading in
some way if you can embrace that.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Oh, I love those as well.
To wrap us up, one question Iwant to start asking all my
podcast guests is to share withus a favorite quote.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Oh, I love this one.
There's so many quotes that,when I think about the topic at
hand and leadership, there's aquote that Walt Whitman said we
convinced by our presence.
If there's one theme thatpeople hopefully heard
throughout our conversation isthat leadership is being, and by
(38:43):
being we're convincing and withthat we're leading, and so to
me, that quote really hits homeand speaks to leadership present
oh, I love that, sheila.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Thank you again so much for joining us today yeah,
so fun.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Thank you for having me All right, bye.
My personal belief is that leadership is a state of
being.
It's who we are and it isinfluencing through interactions
that we have day to day.
So whether that is the personat Starbucks you go in to pick
up your coffee and how youinteract with them, to somebody
at work.
So the way I think aboutleadership is truly a way of
(00:22):
being and not necessarily atitle by itself or all those
leadership tasks that peopleoften talk about.
This just becomes how you areand how you conduct yourself,
and it's not an overnight switch.
It takes intentionality, butyou get to a point where,
ideally, it's not a switch to beturned on, it's just part of
(00:44):
who you are.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Hi, I'm Shelby Nickel .
Have you ever had a greatconversation with a colleague or
a girlfriend and you leave withan energy, boost of inspiration
, ready to fight another day?
Me too, and that feeling wasthe inspiration for this podcast
.
I'm a 25-year corporate veteranwho climbed the corporate
ladder to reach top levels attwo broker-dealers and often I
(01:12):
found myself being the onlywoman in the room.
I saw women advisors andcorporate leaders burned out,
overlooked and generally wantingto have more impact.
And it's not just about us whowork within the wealth
management industry.
It's about the untappedpotential of women as investors.
In this podcast, we tell thestories of women who are winning
clients, leading organizations,doing things differently and
(01:36):
bringing new energy to theirwork.
There's a quote that inspiresme by Muriel Siebert, the first
woman member of the NYSE.
She said when a door is hard toopen and nothing else works,
sometimes we just have to rearback and kick it open.
Welcome to the Muriel NetworkKick it Open podcast.
(02:04):
Welcome everyone to the Kick itOpen podcast, where we kick the
doors open on women's success.
Today we're talking aboutleadership and what it means to
lead ourselves, our team membersand our clients.
I'm joined today by Sheila Bast, a longtime friend and former
colleague.
We worked together for manyyears at Edward Jones and I have
(02:24):
been so lucky to know her.
People in the St Louis areaknow and love Sheila.
She is known for her leadershipand I'm delighted to have her
on the podcast today.
Sheila, tell us about yourcareer journey and what you're
up to now.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, so good to be here.
Shelby and I am remembering oneof the first times we worked on
a project together when we weretraveling for focus groups.
That feels like forever ago,but oh how much has changed and
it's so exciting.
So a little bit about me.
I, like you, have been infinancial services for gosh
probably up to 18 years, servingin various different business
(03:00):
roles, a lot on the productmanagement side, and continue to
follow my passion for peopledevelopment and leadership
development, which is what I doI get to do now completely is
something that startedformulating really early on,
before I was a people leader.
When I became a people leader,I then applied it through
(03:20):
specific change management work,working on enterprise level
changes and now have theopportunity to be a consultant
and a coach and in the space ofleadership development at the
Cohen Leadership Group.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
That's great and I think I remember that exact trip
.
I remember being at an airportrestaurant was one of the
strongest memories I have fromthat trip.
Restaurant was one of thestrongest memories I have from
that trip, and you were alwaysso dedicated to empowering your
people to achieve their verybest.
Tell us what you think of asleadership.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, so leadership is a topic that I think in the
media and when people like readabout it, hear about it,
sometimes gravitate towards.
It's a title Leadership meansI'm the VP of something, I'm
leading a team of people and ofcourse, in those scenarios,
absolutely you are leadingpeople.
But my personal belief is thatleadership is a state of being,
(04:18):
it's who we are and it isinfluencing through interactions
that we have day to day.
So, whether that is the personat Starbucks you go in and pick
up your coffee and how youinteract with them, to somebody
at work.
So the way I think aboutleadership is truly a way of
being and not necessarily atitle by itself or all those
(04:41):
leadership tasks that peopleoften talk about.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
That's interesting.
We did a podcast recently onexecutive presence with Jackie
Nolhoff.
Executive presence is also away of being.
How do you think aboutexecutive presence versus
leadership?
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah.
So I don't think it's like aneither, or I think it's an, and
so when I think of leadershippresent, it really is, I think,
bringing your fullest bell, tolike how you're showing up, and
that all starts with your belief, right, what you align to, and
then how are you conductingyourself in that way?
(05:17):
Executive present is a part ofthat.
It's then how are youpresenting yourself?
And maybe some of the moretraditional, like how you
present, how you introduceyourself, but to me, leadership
is like that umbrella in thebroadest sense of how you make
people feel.
How do you make people feel andhow do you influence?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
There is that kind of Venn diagram of the traits and
as you just, and you just landedon it in the very last word.
You said it's how do youinfluence?
I think at executive presence,like the goal is to influence
something and the goal as aleader is to influence something
.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
And I think that's where that's something that I
hope people take away too isthat everyone can be a leader.
It's choosing to be a leader,it's recognizing your ability to
influence and doing itintentionally.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, I love that recognizing your ability to
influence, because we do allhave it and we just have to turn
it on, sometimes Absolutely.
You have to choose it.
How did you decide that yourgift to share with the world was
leadership coaching?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I did not know that I wanted to be a leadership coach
.
But as I think about my careerearly on to now, even how I am
with my own circle and myfriends, I've always been
somebody who wants to learnabout people, their lives,
what's going well, what's notgoing well, and I either always
wanted to be there for thesupport system if somebody was
(06:41):
going through a hard time, bothat work and with my friends, but
also their biggest cheerleader.
So anytime somebody I would talkto would talk about oh, I can't
do that or that's never goingto happen, and my instinct, my
gut instinct, is, yes, you cando that.
(07:02):
So I feel like I was doing thatearly on.
And then I actually had acolleague of mine say to me who
I didn't know super well atfirst, and they said you have
this way about you when you talkto people, you make them feel
like they're the most importantperson and to me that was
probably the greatest complimentI've ever received and to me
that is the type of leadership Ilike to embody and, as a result
(07:23):
, have been applying it in a waythat I hope helps others
achieve their greatestleadership potential.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Oh, that's.
That is such a great compliment.
Absolutely, and I can attest tothat as well that you make
people feel that way.
I can only imagine how yourteam members felt that support
and also what you just described.
There was both support for themand cheerleading for them, but
also a very high empathyAbsolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
I think empathy is so key when it comes to being a
leader and don't get me wrong,it's not all one way or the
other.
I'm sure people listening,maybe thinking what about the
results?
And I think there's so manystudies and research that now
show that if you care for peopleand they feel they your result,
(08:08):
they will come in and compoundright.
It's that innovation thathappens as a result.
It's that trust that thenempowers people, that leads to
those really strong results.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
That's great.
So your full-time gig obviouslyis leadership coaching, and
this podcast is all aboutwomen's success specifically.
What are differences betweenmen and women as leaders?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
There's so much on this topic isn't there.
And I love this focus throughthis podcast because, yes, there
are certain characteristicsthat tend to be a little bit
more common with men.
Women, for example.
It is that empathy, it's thatinterpersonal relationships,
it's women's desire to want tocreate a more cooperative,
collaborative environment.
(08:53):
On the flip side, when peoplethink of male leaders, they
often think of the assertiveness, the task orientation, the just
focus on the results.
The other way I think about itis I talked earlier about
leadership as being.
There's being leadership andthere's doing leadership.
And in thinking about thisquestion between men and women,
(09:17):
again I'm going to say there'salways a caveat to this.
Right, you have men that arealso empathetic, but if you just
think about it in this sense,there's being leadership, which
is what we talked about earlier,and there's doing it, and those
are some of the differencesthat I see pretty clearly
through the work that I do nowand how that then leads to, how
(09:38):
they can lead themselves to thenlead others and, ultimately,
the business that they're in.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I love that idea of being leadership and doing
leadership.
So being leadership is I'mshowing up at the Starbucks as a
leader.
It's how I'm interacting allthe time, because I'm just
embodying and really feelingthat leadership within me.
Tell me about doing leadership.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, it's the checklist of to-dos that people
think of doing leadership.
If you ignore the beingleadership and you're just
focused on the task of the doingyou're, you are less likely
able to influence in the waythat you're looking to influence
, whether it's an idea, aninitiative or it's also people.
Just checking the box and doingyour performance review as an
(10:40):
example or making the decision,is not necessarily going to.
It doesn't enable you to embodythe larger leadership presence
that you're probably looking toembody.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, I think this is really interesting something.
I hadn't really thought aboutthose distinctions until now.
When you think about thosedistinctions, I think for many
of us it's really easy to do theactivities of a leader.
I'm going to show up, I'm goingto run this meeting, I'm going
to do the performance reviews,like you mentioned.
I'm going to give the salaryincreases, check all the
assignments and make sureeverybody is doing what they're
(11:10):
supposed to be doing and thatthey've got the support they
need.
Those are the doing activities.
Then there is the trueinfluence.
I wonder if sometimes, whenwomen are being dinged for not
having executive presence, ifthey're really not embodying
full leadership yet.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I wonder about that, and that's something that comes
up when I work with individuals.
As women, I would say noteverybody, but a lot of us are
like we got to get all thethings done.
We got to make sure we're therefor our people.
We're getting our work done.
We're checklisting all over theplace and sometimes the to-dos.
We all talk about our mindracing all the time the to-dos
overtake us, showing up, havinga wider perspective of things,
(11:52):
taking a step back.
It's navigating uncertainty.
There's other things that arein addition to just being.
It's your authentic self plus.
It's embracing thosenon-checklist items that come
with true leadership.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I think it's also that calming force of it, and
then also knowing how to playthe politics a little bit as
well.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
right, it's navigating, not going to exist
as humans, having any hierarchyanywhere.
We know that politics is justsometimes it gets like that ugly
bad word, but it's just like itis what it is when you have a
structure.
So to me and I think about my,what I do now and what I did as
a business leader it's how doyou navigate?
How do you navigaterelationships, how do you
(12:39):
navigate an organizationalstructure?
And for some it can feel reallyenergy draining and depleting,
and so it's easier to do some ofthose other checklist-y items.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yes, absolutely.
I like that reframe of politicsto just navigating
relationships, navigating theorganization.
That really makes it feel a lotless cumbersome and a lot less,
maybe anti-person in some way,I would assume that a lot of
people think of the wordpolitics and they just feel like
(13:10):
icky to them.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I don't want to do that, I don't have time, I don't
have energy.
Now there's other people thatwill lean in and they love it.
For women it becomes.
It can be harder to go againstthe grain when you're already
feeling like in the certaincertainly in the financial
services industry.
You're not one of many incertain realms.
That's right, so we can alreadyfeel difficult and have this
connotation of what politicsrepresents to people who are
(13:33):
like I can't deal with that, Idon't have the energy for that.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, I talk about it on so many podcasts, but
there's this idea of the doublebind, of course, and we all know
that for women, and we can't betoo aggressive, we still have
to have the high empathy, etc.
And so it's interesting becausethere's a technique of framing
where you can reframe yourstatement and present actually a
(13:57):
framing statement around yourpoint.
So things like I feel reallystrongly about this because it's
a matter of integrity.
Therefore, I think we should doABC right, but if you frame up
that statement, you giveyourself permission to speak
more openly in those moments,and to me, that's kind of part
of this navigating theorganizational norms and
navigating the relationships.
(14:19):
It is a little political, butit's playing into this executive
presence, leadership presenceidea.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Absolutely and I think probably somewhere in that
framework.
Right is it's giving yourselfpermission to acknowledging this
, whatever feeling you're having, but then whatever it is that
you're trying to say or contestor whatever, you're saying it in
a pretty objective way, right?
Whatever the thing is from anobjective point of view is not
(14:47):
working and it's not anemotional thing, it just is,
it's an observable thing that'sright and putting it in those
observable terms will remove itfrom your point of view.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
and just to your point something that's happening
, that's great.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
And it takes practice .
Speaker 2 (15:02):
but it does, it does and it tips on that Practice.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I think the same thing with leadership too.
I'll just add that it's not asif you decide you want to become
a leader and you do all thesethings that you think you're
supposed to do as a leader youread books, you take classes,
you talk to people and all of asudden you're there.
I would encourage individualsto think about leadership.
This is a lifelong practice andit will evolve based on the
(15:29):
types of roles you're taking on,and practice is practice.
It's going out there, it'strying a thing.
It's not beating yourself upwhen it's not going as you
thought, figuring out what youcould do differently and going
back at it.
Sofa when it's not going as youthought, figuring out what you
could do differently and goingback at it.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
One of the things that I have seen many of my
colleagues and peers incorporate land do is take on
whole new challenges and theyreally are going to level up
their leadership.
What advice do you have forsomeone who is going through a
kind of level up moment?
Speaker 1 (16:04):
First of all, when it's in those situations where
somebody's raised their hand todo it, congratulations, because
it takes a certain amount ofvulnerability, courage, strength
, all those things to say, hey,I'm going to do this bigger role
here.
And even when it's not righteither way, you're getting into
a situation where you don't knowwhat all you're getting into
and there's high stakes and itfeel chaotic.
(16:28):
I don't know how much some ofthe listeners are thinking about
.
There's also this thing calledthe last cliff phenomenon.
It's the situation where, intimes of crisis, something's
going awry.
Oftentimes women are gettingput into these leadership
positions to navigate through it.
Yes, and so not another versionof what you're saying, whether
(16:49):
you choose it or you don't.
But what I would say is I goback to being versus doing.
Regardless of how big the rolefield, how chaotic things are,
how high stakes it is, giveyourself permission to be
intentional when you get in,recognize the scenario.
What's the environment of thisrole?
The good, the bad, thein-between, if this is even a
(17:10):
possibility.
It's asking what is theexpectation here, and I know
it's hard to do that.
I know it feels hard becausethere may be people who feel
like I should know what I'msupposed to do.
I know what the role is, butespecially when we talk about
women, not maybe getting thatfirst leadership role or
whatever next leadership roleSometimes, was that performance
evaluation criteria even clearerto begin with?
(17:32):
What does good look like?
What does success look like?
It's asking the question,getting really clear.
It's leaning on your supportsystem, if you have one.
So maybe this is a brand newcompany and you can still have a
support system right outside ofthe company you're in, or it's
your existing and it's not beingafraid to ask for help.
I know that is hard to do, butwe are all human and taking on
(17:55):
these really big roles is not ofthe faint of heart.
It takes a lot of mental andphysical energy.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
That's right.
I think of a couple of things.
Come to my mind with it, too,is when the negotiation podcasts
that we recently launched.
There was a lot of talk therearound the academic research for
women as we negotiate and whatwas interesting about it is that
, as long as we framed it up andmade it part of the bigger
picture, that we were reallysuccessful.
(18:22):
But the other thing was that wecould and we should make our
best performance level and theconditions that enable us to
best perform part of thenegotiation.
So we are negotiating for theitems or the resources or the
whatever that will enable us tobe performing at our highest
(18:45):
level with the lowest stress,absolutely.
Which I just never thought of inthat terminology.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
And I don't want to speak for everyone out there,
but I can speak for myself.
Whenever I was put into a newand different role which
happened often my naturalinstinct was to get in and start
doing.
When I reflect back, I wantednothing more than to get in
there and immediately startadding value, without taking
that pause to recognize thescenario and to your point.
(19:15):
It's negotiating for what youknow you need, because what
happens when you don't have theresources?
It's negotiating for what youknow you need, because what
happens when you don't have theresources?
Now you start doing things yes,because it's needed that you
probably shouldn't be doing.
That is not necessarilyforwarding your level of
leadership right and whateverinitiative or team that needs to
be propelled forward there yeah, and it can be really to your
(19:39):
point earlier about asking forhelp.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It can be difficult to ask for help.
To your point earlier aboutasking for help it can be
difficult to ask for help, butthe point is you're asking for
help in order to do somethingbigger for the organization.
That's for the organization'sbenefit, not your own.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, and if we can remind ourselves that is what
that is, maybe it'll be easierfor everyone to be able to ask
that question more freely.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I do think, as we continue to go up the ladder, we
see these jumps in ourleadership, and a jump might be,
for example, leading a team of,say, 10 to then leading a team
of 100 or 400.
And we have to make significantchanges in, maybe, how we
manage.
Maybe it's not how we lead, butit's how we manage.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (20:19):
It's funny the word manage, like when we were
talking earlier about being anddoing.
I also think a synonym to doingis managing and leading are two
different things.
They're related.
They do need to go together insome way.
Given your role, you might havebeen somebody who was what you
call a player coach.
You're engaged in some parts ofthe work and you're leading a
(20:42):
team, inherent in that you'redoing some of the stuff.
When you're then leading from10 to you said, 500, whatever it
is, that really has to bethought about in a totally
different way.
Some other shifts that I thinkabout with leadership is if we
go from doing to being.
Another shift would be fromknowing to understanding, from
(21:06):
knowing to understanding.
Oftentimes, individuals whocontinue to get promoted into
leadership because they're goodat something right, they've
demonstrated success butcontinuing to be the doer and
then also being able to level upleadership can become at odds
with each other.
So how can you go from likeknowing all the things all the
(21:28):
time to understanding what's theamount that you need to know in
order to help, enable and guideyour large organization?
So that's another shift, andthen the other one that comes to
mind and, by the way, thiscomes from this book called
Finding Time to Lead.
It's by Ludley Peters shortbook and so many good nuggets in
(21:50):
it and they talk about thesethree shifts, and the third one
is from being reactive to beingresponsive.
And so, in this context and thereason why I love these shifts
so much is it is that, leveledup leader, you are at a much
higher level.
You're a CEO, you're overseeinghundreds of people.
(22:12):
Whatever it may be, you have toget comfortable.
What does that look like?
How are you being different?
What are you doing?
That's different.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
So I want to go back to what you were saying a moment
ago about managing and leading,because I know in my corporate
career I did get dinged on thisat one point and it was
incredibly frustrating to mebecause my leader at the time
was asking me really detailedquestions about the work that
was underway by the team and Iwas expected to have an answer
(22:44):
Right, and so I was.
I made care to know everythingthat was happening.
I was meeting with people oncea week to just make sure I was
up to date.
It's not like I was in theirdetails every day, but when it
came time for reviews and such,I was dinged for managing and
being too in the weeds versusleading and not being out of the
(23:07):
weeds, and so I was on thiscusp of that next level up, that
next jump up, but I was beingjudged against the future
standard while also having todeliver on the current standard
of knowing everything that wasgoing on.
Any advice for people navigatingthat middle shift.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
So it's tough.
First of all, let me justacknowledge that it's very tough
and there isn't any one way tojust eliminate it, because, at
the end of the day, there isthis we talk about FOMO fear of
missing out which, when youapply that to the professional
setting, it's like this feelingthat, no matter how high up a
leader is, they always like needto know the information.
(23:46):
But that can be at thedetriment of progress and
enabling individuals to feelempowered.
So how can we again, going backto that second shift, go from
knowing to understanding shift,go from knowing to understanding
?
How can we go from theday-to-day every nit and nat
detail to, if we know what theexpected results are, the
(24:08):
outcomes we're trying to achieve?
How is that going at a higherlevel, as opposed to did we do
this XYZ thing last week, Interms of how to navigate it, and
this can be really tough.
I think it's some of it is amatter of how comfortable can
you be having a difficultconversation with your leader
and, to your point, it canactually come back and affect
(24:31):
you in a way that your team issaying, oh my gosh, so-and-so is
just always asking me exactlywhat I'm doing.
I don't feel like they trust me.
So it has that negative effectthat we don't want to have on
our people, and so I think thebiggest thing that I would
recommend and I know it's notthe easy route is having the
courage to have a difficultconversation.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah, you have to go back to that leader and I didn't
do this at the time and say hey, you're asking me for all these
details over here.
I know you also want me and myteam to step up in leadership.
How do you want us to navigatethese two things that?
Speaker 1 (25:09):
are really at odds.
Yes, and it's a little bit, andthis is where the coaching side
is going to come out of me.
It's helped me understand.
Say more about whatever thedetail is.
What is it about that that youfeel like you need to know?
And so, who knows?
Maybe that person's leader isasking Maybe there's some type
of like distrust somewhere,maybe that there's all kinds of
(25:33):
reasons as to why thattranspires.
But even asking the question ofhelp me understand what
information you're needing thatyou're not getting, and then
let's figure out a way to do itin a way that still makes the
teams, the team of people, feelenabled and empowered to do that
.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, I like that, those lines, those very specific
questions that you just shared.
So let's talk a little bitabout advisors too, because
advisors, I think, have a reallyinteresting leadership place
right.
They are leading themselvesbecause they are usually tasked
(26:11):
with growing a business.
They might be leading big teamsof people as well, depending on
how their practice isstructured, and they're
certainly leading clients.
Their practice is structuredand they're certainly leading
clients.
What do you think of when youthink about those different
types or maybe manifestations ofleadership?
Speaker 1 (26:28):
All leading, as we talked about before, and it is
wearing different hats.
However, I think the goal hereis to show up as a leader in a
way that not all of these thingsfeel additive, if you will.
It's just a way of being that,regardless of what interaction
you're in whether it's sittingdown with a client to talk about
(26:49):
their account, or it's a teammember, or it's yourself it
doesn't feel like okay, I haveto shift gears.
I think, with leadership,connecting with people,
regardless of who that is yourpeers, your clients, those who
you're responsible to is alwaysgoing to be something that's
important as a leader.
So if you're someone who grows,develops and how you can
(27:13):
connect with people, you canapply that in most settings.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, I think of leadership a little bit as this.
Like armor I'm putting on,though, and what you're really
saying is it's not armor, it'sjust who you are and how you
show up every day, all the time.
So it's a growth orientation,it's this you've grown into a
leader and now, therefore, youare leader lead and that is that
(27:44):
of how you're showing up.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
and when you talked about armor, actually it
reminded me of Brene Brown'sDare to Lead book, and there's
that whole conversation aboutarmored and unarmored, which is
so interesting.
To take a step back and even asan individual as that, how am I
showing up?
And is the way that I'm showingup through either the tasks I'm
doing, how I'm addressingpeople, whatever it may be, the
(28:06):
characteristics that I'm showing?
Is that me?
Is that actually who I am?
Or am I putting on a quote,unquote armor and you're right,
that is how I think of that isit's unarmored.
You're an unarmored leaderregardless of the setting that
you're in.
Sometimes it's hard to puttactical tangibility to it, but
(28:29):
just think about anyone, anythink about any leader out there
, public figure, somebody youworked with.
What was it about them that,like, really made them stand out
to you as a leader?
Putting a title aside, thosecharacteristics, how they showed
up, how they responded versusreacted, this just becomes how
(28:51):
you are and how you conductyourself, and it's not an
overnight switch.
It takes intentionality, butyou get to a point where,
ideally, it's not a switch to beturned on, it's just part of
who you are.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I like that a lot and I think that if we can get to a
place of unarmored leadership,it also means that you have that
confidence and worthiness towhere you are comfortable with
that role.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yes, confidence is a big one that comes up a lot,
doesn't it?
I think it's really easy foranyone whether it's a new
leadership role, you're insomething different you're
taking on to all of a suddenstart questioning your own
competence, your ability to dosomething, and that all impacts
how you show up.
(29:39):
So confidence is such a bigfactor in your present.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
I've been reading the Jamie Kern Lima's book Worthy
and she was the creator of itCosmetics he talks about, and
there's many sort of publicfigures that feel this way,
where they may have highconfidence but low self-worth,
and so I think being able toturn up that self-worth and to
get past some of that baggagethat you have and then also then
(30:05):
bring that confidence furtherforward and really help you
embody I think this embodimentis something that I struggled
with for a long time of justembodying whatever it was that I
felt.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Myself included and it.
Also I have not read that book,although I'll add it to my list
.
When I think of worthiness, too, I wonder.
I think you were alluding tothis.
It's like I'm questioning if Ideserve this.
Yeah, I'm questioning if thiscontentment or happiness that I
feel is going to stay, or isthis like a fleeting thing and I
shouldn't get too attached tothings going?
Well, right, it's this.
(30:37):
We do that as humans.
We catastrophize a lot ofthings and we always are like
what's the worst?
This can't last, it's too good,that's right, or it can't be
this good for me and absolutelythat is going to take a toll on
confidence I talk a lot about itand that I had a career I could
never have dreamt of as a child.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
And I think many of us have because, as children,
our dreams are relatively benignas well and we don't realize,
sort of the scope of the worldand the scope of our own
competence and where our hardwork might take us.
We have the audacious goal ofclosing the gap, or helping to
close the gap, on women andsenior leadership in the wealth
(31:28):
management industry.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
What do women need to do differently to make it
inside of the corporate ranks ifthat's where they choose to
stay.
I would say first ask yourselfwhat you really want.
What is it that you really wantand why and I know that seems
really simple, but at least inmy case, I was so busy in the
doing.
I was so busy in the doing ontop of having, like many of us,
a very busy household and lifethat I didn't create the space
(32:00):
and time to reflect on what isit that I want and why do I want
it.
So then, what happened in mycase was I got to a point where
my North Star what I thought wasmy North Star became very fuzzy
and everything became startedto feel very draining.
So that's my very first thing.
Take a minute.
You may be feeling frustrated.
(32:22):
Whatever it is that you'refeeling is valid.
Ask yourself why and askyourself what you really want.
If it is to continue toprogress in the organization,
that's great.
And so then, how do you goabout doing that?
In sponsorship and alsomentorship, and those two are
different things, right?
So who is it that really cansponsor you?
(32:43):
And sponsoring means they'retalking about you when you don't
even know it in a real positiveway.
They're figuring out ways togive you stretch opportunities,
to give you roles or toinfluence that.
They're also in your corner.
They're folks that are maybespending their time with you,
giving you advice on what workedfor them, what didn't, but also
(33:06):
leaning into your story.
There's also sometimes whatgets in the way too is when you
have individuals, women, whomight be so status driven.
When I say status means liketitle right, Like you're going
for a certain role.
That's okay.
(33:26):
But when a status driven, itinherently comes this feeling of
but there's only so many rolesfor that, there's only this one
role, there's only this, so muchspace.
Then what starts to happen isthis growing competitiveness and
the way you start showing up,and is this growing
competitiveness and the way youstart showing up?
It takes away from yourleadership.
It takes away from the result.
(33:47):
But if you're focused on more,I'll say wealth, and wealth
isn't necessarily compensation,but it's like the whole package.
What am I doing all this for?
What is this affording me to do?
All through other parts of mylife, I think it starts to help
tilt people towards maybe morethat abundant mindset.
What are these winopportunities?
And I also think that lendsitself to women lifting up other
(34:10):
women.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
And I agree fully with what you've just said.
You mentioned sponsorship andmentorship, and the story that
popped into my head as youtalked about that was that when
Muriel Siebert went to get herseat on the New York Stock
Exchange, you had to literallybe sponsored by another member,
and so she had to go ask forsponsorship, and she had to ask
(34:33):
nine people before somebody saidyes.
But what I think is interestingis I remember being in
corporate that we at timesweren't supposed to ask for what
we wanted, and so I think yourfirst point of being really
clear about what you want, andthen the second point around
sponsorship, I think we reallyhave to find the right line
(34:54):
inside of our organizations, butat times we have to be more
bold than we think we should beor can be and ask for that help
too.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
We got to figure out a way to do it.
Yeah, we're going to.
Yeah, and in some organizationsthat may not be as welcome,
like you said, but we have topush on that because we won't
see the difference that we'retrying to like affect with
having more women in leadershiproles.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yeah, if we continue the way where we are right now.
Exactly and the numbers haven'tmoved in like a decade.
They're just not changing andthere's some data that's saying
that in the next coming yearswe're going to see C-suite even
decline because the next levelisn't there currently and I
think some of it is a little bitof blowback on asking it's some
folks dropping out of corporateranks just feeling like it's
too hard now.
The last point I wanted tomention was that and you alluded
(35:51):
to it as well is that I thinkwe have an opportunity to stop
the competition with each other.
We have an opportunity to getloud for each other too, to
really support and promote womenand let's celebrate each other.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
And just because we are acknowledging and
celebrating somebody elsedoesn't mean that takes away
opportunity for us.
And how much stronger could webe when we are going at it
together as opposed to againsteach other.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah, I think the last thing, and related to that,
is noticing our ownaccomplishments and saying that
one person said when you'rerunning into someone in the
hallway, right, you could be atan advisor office and or you
could be in a corporate ranks.
If somebody asks you how you'redoing, you should have a line
that says some bigaccomplishment that you've just
done, oh I'm doing great.
(36:40):
Did you hear I won that 20million dollar client?
Oh, I'm doing great.
Did you hear I won that $20million client?
Oh, I'm doing great.
Kelsey on our team got fundingfor a new tool, whatever it
might be.
So I think, maybe normalizing alittle bit of that
bragging-ness too Women don'ttend to do that we're never
going to be over the line onthis stuff.
People.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
We're just never.
We brag a little more than wehave been and we'll still be
open.
Acknowledgement and celebrating.
Celebrating accomplishmenthelps fuel progression.
It helps you show up as aleader.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
This has been such a greatconversation.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
What would you identify as some really key
resources for people to learnabout leadership and perhaps to
get to that embodied state yeah,there's so many leadership
books out there the one that Ireferenced earlier about the
shifts, especially for those whoare leveling up in leaders.
They're going from being theplayer coach, leader to now they
(37:37):
need to level up even more.
I definitely recommend theFinding Time to Lead book that I
mentioned.
I also love Dare to Lead forBrene Brown.
I think there's a lot thatcomes from being vulnerable,
which I know feels hard.
That then leads you to a placewhere you're okay.
It is okay.
(37:58):
It's normalizing, asking forthings and showing up in a
certain way, and that not onlyhelps you, but it's going to
help empower many people thatyou're going to be leading in
some way if you can embrace that.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Oh, I love those as well.
To wrap us up, one question Iwant to start asking all my
podcast guests is to share withus a favorite quote.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Oh, I love this one.
There's so many quotes that,when I think about the topic at
hand and leadership, there's aquote that Walt Whitman said we
convinced by our presence.
If there's one theme thatpeople hopefully heard
throughout our conversation isthat leadership is being, and by
(38:43):
being we're convincing and withthat we're leading, and so to
me, that quote really hits homeand speaks to leadership present
oh, I love that, sheila.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Thank you again so much for joining us today yeah,
so fun.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Thank you for having me All right, bye.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!