October 13, 2023 • 37 mins
Join us for a thought-provoking conversation as we navigate the often murky waters of faith, abuse, and the role of mental health counseling in this delicate balance. Our esteemed guest, Chris Conley, LPC, brings a wealth of professional expertise to the table as he sheds light on how spiritual or religious abuse can damage a person's relationship with the divine, leading to feelings of depression, anxiety, fear, and trauma. We delve deep into the ethical responsibilities of mental health professionals when addressing faith or spirituality with clients, emphasizing the need to maintain objectivity and refrain from pushing any religious agenda.
Ensuring a positive therapeutic impact involves understanding and respecting a client's personal convictions. We discuss the importance of understanding a client's worldview in the counseling process, touching on how abuse can cause a person's worldview to crumble, leading to significant mental health concerns. But it's not just about the clients' worldviews, we also touch on the importance of recognizing diverse beliefs and practices within faiths.
Navigating faith isn't a journey one needs to embark on alone. We highlight online resources like recoveringfromreligion.org, secularnetwork.org, and Clergyproject.org- virtual spaces that can prove invaluable in the healing process. We also introduce the Spiritual Harm and Abuse Scale, a tool that can facilitate understanding and recovery. Remember, you don’t have to be an expert in faith to provide help. An open mind, an attentive ear, and the ability to ask the right questions can make a world of difference. Tune in for an enlightening discussion on the complex relationship between faith, abuse, and mental health counseling.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Barlow (00:01):
Welcome to the Kinder Mind podcast, where we're
devoted to opening upconversations and destigmatizing
mental health.
We'll bring you interviews withpractitioners in the field of
mental health, researchersuncovering new knowledge and
best practices for treatingmental health disorders, and
individuals sharing their mentalhealth journey.
A big welcome to our KinderMind podcast listeners.
(00:22):
I'm Dr Barlow and today I'mjoined with Chris Conley, LPC,
to talk about exploring abusefaith, spiritual, religious
abuse and counseling and toreally open up this topic and
explore what this means, whatthis looks like, how this is
experienced, and to really haveChris share his professional
(00:44):
expertise on his experiences andwhat he's seen in the field.
Thank you so much for joiningus today, chris.
It's great to have you.
Chris Conley, LPC (00:51):
Yeah, thank you so much.
It's good to be here.
I like taking any opportunity.
I can't talk about this subject.
It's important out there, but Idon't hear a lot of people
talking about it.
Dr. Barlow (01:04):
For sure.
So when I was actually readingthrough your experience and even
this topic of faith andspiritual religious abuse, I was
trying to figure out what anglewe're approaching it from,
because what my brainimmediately went to was being in
kind of a spiritually abusivesituation with maybe a church or
(01:26):
a past religion.
But then I think there's also acontext of where you could work
with a therapist who might havea very hard and fast stance on
oh you should pray about it oryou should do this or that.
Tell me what context we'retalking about it in today.
Chris Conley, LPC (01:45):
Yeah, I think when most at least in the
conversations I have when mostpeople think about spiritual or
religious abuse, they thinkabout the things on the news
where maybe there are scandalsin certain churches with actual
other types of abuse like sexualabuse, physical abuse and those
definitely fit.
But I think of it as more alongthe lines of when that
(02:09):
spiritual or religiousrelationship a person has is
abused or manipulated bysomebody who is maybe in some
sort of position of power orauthority in that structure to
take advantage of a person.
So that could be a therapistwho brings a spiritual lens into
their practice.
That could be a pastor or apriest or a religious leader.
(02:33):
It could also just be somebodyin the family or a mentor who
holds a spiritual yeah, I use aspiritual authority over
somebody.
Dr. Barlow (02:43):
Okay, so like a parent or like a religious
figure and really using faithand spirituality to incorporate
it into the abuse.
Chris Conley, LPC (02:54):
Right, and that might be things where
somebody shames a teenager who'smaybe engaging in, like some,
sexual behavior.
They come from a religiousbackground, or maybe that's not
accepted, and instead oflovingly guiding somebody into
whatever this agreed upon moralstance is, it's using that to
(03:17):
push shame, to push guilt on aperson and then to overtake them
or overpower them, and a lot oftimes, it serves the aggressor
in terms of stroking their ego.
A lot of times, you'll seenarcissistic individuals in that
position.
The best way that I try tothink about it, though, is the
(03:37):
person's relationship with God,the universe, the divine,
however you want to define thatspiritual piece is as
significant a relationship as aromantic relationship or a
family relationship, and when welook at those kinds of
relationships, we're pretty goodat identifying what's abusive,
(03:59):
and that's when something inthat relationship is not
treating the other person well.
So we think about domesticviolence.
That's a trusted relationshipwhere, now, one person is taking
advantage of and manipulatingthat relationship.
We think about neglect withkids, and that's where somebody
in a power authority in thatrelationship is not doing by the
(04:20):
child, and a lot of times it'sserving ego or it is a power
grab, a control grab.
I know, abuse is way morecomplex and there's layers far
beyond that.
That's a good framework forthinking about how spiritual or
religious abuse can work too.
That's a very and just like theother ones that we just
(04:42):
mentioned, it can be manipulatedand bring harm.
Dr. Barlow (04:46):
Absolutely, and you made a really great point about
those types of abuses and thebyproducts of that and the
feelings and emotions that comeinto play, and even the mental
health disorders experienced byclients who have gone through
domestic abuse, sexual abuse,things like that.
How does faith or spiritualityoften intersect with mental
health in the form of abuse?
Chris Conley, LPC (05:09):
Yeah.
So this is where part of mesaid you stick to that framework
of how would you look at abuseand other situations, and then
you apply to the spiritual orreligious lens, and so I'll just
use those two experiences I usethe moment ago.
If you have somebody who's in aromantic relationship and now
domestic violence takes place,there's going to be the
(05:31):
potential for depressivesymptoms, anxious symptoms, fear
, anger, all these things.
Existential crisis, becausethis relationship I thought was
safe is now not safe and all thethings that come along with
that.
And so it's anything.
The kid is going to neglect theparents, who are supposed to
love me, to take care of me,provide for me.
(05:52):
Now they're not safe andthey're not doing their thing.
So it leaves the same kind ofsymptoms, potentially of
depression, anxiety, stress,trauma, all those things.
What's the same withspirituality and religion?
If I have a worldview that saysthe world works this way,
whether that is God protects usor that is Jesus loves me, or
(06:15):
that is the multitude ofdifferent beliefs that are out
there, once an abuse enters intothat relationship, that stuff
starts to be questioned.
Right, okay, so Jesus loves mebecause that's what my pastor
taught me, but now my pastor ismanipulating me, hurting me,
taking advantage of me, thatwhole worldview starts to
crumble.
(06:35):
And if that view crumbles, justlike these other relationships
now I'm having depressivesymptoms, anxious symptoms,
fears, thinking about like mywhole world is changing.
Dr. Barlow (06:48):
I think that's a really interesting concept to
think about, because I know thatwhen we talk with clients,
often our focus, especially inthe beginning of working
together, is to understand theclient's worldview and to have
them really inform us of.
What does your culture looklike?
What does your world look like?
What's your core belief system?
(07:08):
How was that formed?
And I think it's a really greatpoint to incorporate faith,
like faith is a very big part ofa lot of individuals core
belief systems and what makesthem who they are.
So I think that's really notonly interesting but profound
that you put so much faith in ahigher power, as so many do.
(07:30):
What happens when that crumbles?
What happens when that is a bad, negative, abusive relationship
?
What are some common signs orlike red flags for you that
might indicate that a clienteither may have experienced
faith or spiritual abuse, ormight even be in a faith or
spiritually abusive relationshipright now?
Chris Conley, LPC (07:51):
Yeah, it's hard to know with certainty
because when it comes toreligious, spiritual things
there's a bit of subjectivity toit and things that I might hold
in my moral compass of how theworld should work.
We know this as counselors andtherapists.
Our worldviews are alwaysaligned with our clients.
(08:12):
So I think you can get stucksometimes if you see somebody
who's in a religious practicethat you just don't like or that
you don't think is good orbeneficial, and you can be
tempted to fall into thinkinglike maybe that's not good for
them, maybe that's abusive.
So I try to think about it inclinical terms.
If I see somebody who isexperiencing depressive symptoms
(08:36):
, anxious symptoms, and thenwhen the thing of spirituality,
their religion, their faithsystem or lack thereof comes up,
if I notice a correlation there, I might start to explore to
see if there is somethingabusive in that connection.
So if you do intake withsomebody starting to get to know
(08:58):
them and they identify as acertain religion, and then the
more you get to know them intherapy, as they talk about it,
when that topic comes up youhear language of guilt and shame
, a lot that can point you to it.
But you just notice when theytalk about it.
They don't seem to feel greatabout it.
That's an indicator that, evenif it's not abusive, all the way
(09:21):
that there's somethinguncomfortable about that part of
their world.
And again, that's wheresubjectivity makes it hard to,
because a lot of religions doteach there's a tension between
our existence in the world andthe spiritual dimension, and so
tension is not necessarily evena bad thing.
But those are the things youlook for is how does your client
(09:44):
, how does our body languagechange when they're talking
about faith or faith experiencesor relationships within their
faith community?
Do they flat out expressconfusion, or do they express
tension or disbelief or conflict?
And at that point you can digdeeper with them.
Dr. Barlow (10:03):
I was thinking, as you were speaking, about a
client that I worked with over ayear ago who was a college age
student and very faith based,and one of the first
conversations we had she wasfeeling symptoms of depression
and dread and just a lot of selfloathing because she could not
(10:27):
stop having sexual intercoursewith her boyfriend and every
time she would have an orgasmshe would cry and immediately
break down and hate herself forweeks at a time because she felt
that God was mad at her forthat and that was interesting
(10:48):
for me to hear.
But then not really a farstretch, because I know some
religions it's God has vieweddifferent ways.
It's not not every religion isthe same.
So some religions it's verymuch abstinence, fire, brimstone
, like doomsday revelations.
Other religions are much morelike loving and open and maybe
(11:11):
it's not even the religion butthe church you go to the pastor,
the preacher, the reverend.
So for her this was a reallybig life situation when she felt
really stuck and lost and sadabout.
I'm interested to hear if youhappen to have a client that
you've worked with in the pastthat you could share with us
just to help illustrate what itmight look like for someone to
(11:35):
be going through this in reallife.
Chris Conley, LPC (11:38):
Yeah, I have one that really comes to mind.
I worked with years ago camefrom a pretty conservative,
fundamental Christian backgroundand I'd maybe be clear I don't
have anything against anyreligion or faith, but this
young man identified as beinggay and when he came to see me
for counseling he wanted to seeif I could help him not be gay.
(12:01):
And, of course, walking himthrough that conversation in the
intake, I told him I was likethat's not really a thing we
could do.
However, I'm happy to help youexplore why you're having these
tensions, etc.
Etc.
It all ended up boiling down tohis belief that being gay was
wrong in the eyes of God and sohe wanted to not be that.
(12:23):
And this is where it getsreally hard, because if somebody
has a conviction from theirfaith that says this, I have to
not challenge what they believeabout their faith, because you
want to respect somebody's faith, and so it's more like pointing
out what you're hearing andtrying to get down to find a
(12:45):
conclusion about it.
What I ended up doing with thisguy after I don't even know how
long is.
I just asked him how he knowsthat Right.
So how do you know that beinggay is wrong in the eyes of God.
And he shared like I go to thischurch and my preacher preached
this sermon.
Okay, cool.
So that's like one one piece ofevidence and column, a here,
(13:09):
what else?
And he said something aboutmaybe reading an article or
something here or there.
Oh yeah, just reading an articleor seeing something on the
internet, and I didn't just pushback, oh that's silly or
anything.
I was like cool, that's thatstuff you've read that's
convinced you of this, awesome.
What I challenged him to do WasI said you're making a decision
(13:34):
about how you live your lifeBased off of what you told me a
preacher said and some articlesyou've read.
He did you know what your holybook says for yourself?
And he said he had an idea.
So my challenge to him is youare making a decision that has a
huge impact on your life,because if you believe being gay
(13:55):
is wrong in the eyes of God andyou live by that conviction,
then your choices to live in away that you think is harmful to
what you believe about theworld, or You're gonna practice
some version of abstinence orchastity and miss out on what
most of us would considerfundamental human experience
(14:17):
romance, companionship, sexualgratification.
And I just challenged him I'mlike man, I just study that
stuff for yourself.
The Bible is an old book.
It's.
Most people, I think, wouldagree there's wisdom in there,
but there are thousands of waysto interpret that.
And I just challenged or saiddo it for yourself.
(14:38):
I said, if you do the work andyou study it and you still land
on that conviction, cool, I'mnot gonna tell you not to have
it, but then you can at leastfor yourself know you got there
honestly and that's what youreally believe, and it's not
something that you're justTaking from somebody else who
could potentially have an agendaor a misunderstanding of things
.
And and he did that and, to befair, I don't know if he fully
(15:03):
landed- it anywhere before wedischarged.
But I could see that he reallytried to engage that process.
Dr. Barlow (15:09):
I Think that's so great that you were able to Do
what was necessary on your endas a helping professional and
not tell him like, oh, thatsounds messed up or this sounds
right.
Chris Conley, LPC (15:22):
But allow him to Make that choice and help
him to really dig through andask the questions and I'll say
the secret with that is that'swhat we do with a lot of other
areas and counseling right.
If you have a client that'sdating somebody that you think
is bad for them, unless you'retalking about something where
(15:43):
there's imminent danger, youdon't necessarily argue.
I don't know if that's the bestgirlfriend for you or if
somebody's talking about takinga job and you just don't think
it's a great I we don't pushthat.
I think because a lot of ushave our own personal
convictions on these things andthen in some areas, like our
culture is really loud on what'sright and wrong.
(16:04):
But I think it makes it easierfor our therapist to be tempted
to jump in there and be get somesort of answer man, that sounds
really silly, like why wouldyou even think about that?
But without recognizing thisperson is at the place they are
because they've been on a paththat's led them to really
believe and think these thingsand I actually I run the risk of
(16:25):
, if I'm super dismissive ofthat, I'm almost at the risk of
making them feel just reallydumb.
Right, you've been a rust, ifyou've been a wrestling with
this for your whole life, andlike in five minutes I tell you
well, that's really stupid, am Itelling you've been an idiot
your whole life.
And then what does that do forthe therapeutic relationship and
(16:45):
what does that do for themtrying to find peace of mind in
whatever they're battling ortrying to figure out?
Dr. Barlow (16:53):
Absolutely, completely negates any type of
Positive therapeutic impactyou're gonna have with that
client.
If you're immediately just, youshouldn't be thinking that way
or living that way.
We can't come with the answers.
Our clients have the answersand it's our job to help them to
see that they have thoseanswers and get Beyond that.
I can only see my hand in frontof my face.
(17:14):
I can't see 10 feet in front ofmy face.
Absolutely that makes tons ofsense.
I think that brings up a reallygreat kind of next question Can
you tell us about the ethicalresponsibilities that mental
health professionals have whenaddressing faith or spirituality
in therapy with clients?
Chris Conley, LPC (17:32):
Yeah, number one is this is your client's
time, so this is not a time foryou to have an agenda.
Spiritually, religiously and Iknow there are some faith
traditions that in the contextof the house of worship they do
have some pretty strongconvictions about fossilizing or
(17:53):
sharing your faith with peopleand, like, the therapy room is
just not the place for thatbecause it removes.
It just removes the objectiveor, yeah, the objectivity in the
relationship.
But it's just.
It's also it's not over there,for no, that doesn't mean that
if you're a deeply religiousperson, you can't be a good
therapist.
(18:14):
You just have to be aware ofthat stuff and it's similar to
almost like political stuff aswell.
I don't know if you saw this,but when the COVID times and the
couple of years leading up toCOVID times, where politics and
issues in our culture were justreally hot and heavy in the news
cycle, I was literally asked byclients who I was voting for
(18:39):
because they were going to makedecisions about if they could
trust me as their therapistbased on that.
Dr. Barlow (18:44):
Oh, wow, yeah.
Chris Conley, LPC (18:46):
I had to walk .
I had to walk them through likewhy we're not talking about
that?
And, of course, if at any pointyou don't think I'm a good
therapist, I want you to seesomebody you feel good about.
But religion is the same wayfor a lot of people.
There's that strong feeling.
It's not uncommon for people towant a therapist who bears that
with them.
So I run a practice here inVirginia Beach, virginia, and a
(19:08):
lot of times we get a questionor request of hey, I want a
Muslim therapist, hey, I want anatheist therapist, hey, I want
a Christian therapist.
Like, when we can, we do ourbest to accommodate that.
But also, that's not the placefor the place for our therapist
to come in with a religiousagenda, even if that therapist
(19:30):
is convinced that there are somegood tools in that.
I think it's clear that healthyreligious practices for the most
part are good for our mentalhealth.
You can say, if you havesomebody who is your client and
they're a Buddhist but they'renot really practicing any of the
Buddhist practices and nowthey're talking to you about
having some stress, depression,existential conflict, there's
(19:54):
benefit to saying, hey, are youmeditating?
Hey, are you doing A, b and C.
That's a worthwhileconversation, but that's because
you identify that as aneffective coping skill or
something in their life that issupposed to bring them some
encouragement or peace.
It's not the same as me sayinghey, actually you sound stressed
(20:15):
like I'm a Buddhist and one ofthe things that we really do is
we take a lot of time formeditation and self-reflection.
You could totally be a Buddhistlike me and find some peace.
That's where there's adifference between welcoming
someone's faith and faithpractices into the relationship
of counseling versus bringingyours in there.
(20:36):
And then, on top of that, it'svery important to be upfront too
, and if you don't knowsomething about your clients'
religion that they've identified, they don't try to pretend you
do ask questions, that you cando so appropriately and
non-judgmentally.
Most people don't mindexplaining that stuff to you if
you seem genuinely curious, butyou can't try to pretend like
(21:00):
you get that stuff if you don'tget that stuff, which is hard
for some therapists, becausethen they might feel like
they're not doing a good job ifthey have to ask those kinds of
questions, because sometimes Ithink we feel the pressure to
know everything and of course,we can't know everything.
That's why we do podcasts likethis, so we can keep learning.
Dr. Barlow (21:20):
Absolutely, and I love that point, and that is one
of those pieces that I amalways shouting from the
rooftops with my supervisees andany interns that I have at our
therapy group is it is not onlyokay to not owe everything, it
is an expectation to not knoweverything, because the second
(21:42):
that you think that, exactlywhat this client is going
through, you just made anassumption and you are
horrifically wrong.
And that is a lot of the clienteducation piece, too, that I
love to have conversations withclients about, because it's not
about finding the right agetherapist, it's not about
(22:03):
finding the therapist that haslived your experience and that's
the only person that's going tobe able to help you.
It's about finding a goodtherapist.
And what does that mean?
What is a good therapist?
A good therapist is someone whois willing to learn and maybe
they have experienced some ofthe same things that you have.
They're not going toimmediately bring that up.
(22:25):
They're only going to have thatself-disclosure if it's
appropriate and it does no harm.
For an example, I have workedwith clients who have been
survivors of date rape.
I myself have never been raped.
That doesn't mean that I can'twork with you and I can't give
you the space to educate meabout what you went through,
(22:45):
because rape victims aren't thesame.
There's no directlycorrelatable experience among
all rape victims and if I'veworked with one, then I've
worked with 50, no, they're allindividuals.
They're all different.
They all have their own story.
So it sounds like that's thesame thing when it comes to
faith is it's not the same faithdenomination.
(23:07):
It might even still beChristianity, but one person's
experience with their faithmight not be the exact same.
And if you are a therapist offaith or a Christian therapist
working with a Christian client,that doesn't necessarily mean
that your client worships theway that you do and that they
believe what you believe.
Chris Conley, LPC (23:25):
So really having that realism and that
yeah, there's two really greatpoints in there.
Like you were just saying, youcould take something as plain as
I'm a Christian, I'm a Muslim,I'm an Hindu, and that doesn't
mean the same thing person toperson.
I know this most intimately inthe Christian circle, like
(23:46):
there's a wide spectrum fromlike super fundamental,
conservative Christians all theway to like very liberal, open
Christians, hundreds ofdifferent denominations, and so
there's a lot of differencesthere.
But the other thing that kindof came to my mind while you
were saying that is, I think thereason those requests are made
(24:08):
by clients is going back to whatwe said towards the beginning,
right, no-transcript orspiritual system as a really big
part of their worldview.
And so there is going to besome comfort.
If I'm going to embrace insomething that's heavy like
counseling therapy, maybe evenscary, because I've never done
it, I'm nervous.
It's nice to know that I sharethat worldview, even if that's
(24:33):
not completely true, it's acomforting factor.
And then there are some faithtraditions or branches of faiths
that are not the mostsupportive of counseling and
therapy, and so to say, hey,this one's okay because they're
an Hindu like me, they're aMuslim like me, so this isn't
just like that secular, terriblecounseling stuff.
(24:54):
So those are, I think, a coupleof reasons why those requests
come in like that, and I dothink there's value to honoring
that where you can.
Dr. Barlow (25:02):
I completely agree and, like you said, and I even
gosh, I have a personalexperience where that's happened
before.
I was raised Catholicself-disclosure and during my
time in grad school I just had ababy my husband's in the
military.
I'm thinking of doing a gradschool and I just felt really
(25:22):
overwhelmed.
I'd never been in therapy.
Chris Conley, LPC (25:24):
I'd never even entertained that idea.
Dr. Barlow (25:26):
So go to my primary care doctor because of my
insurance and I asked for areferral to talk to a
psychiatrist.
I didn't even know that therewere other forms of therapy and
this was 2010.
So not incredibly long ago, andthe doctor looked at me like I
was crazy, immediately left theroom.
The nurse came in and gave methe number, burger pastor, and
(25:50):
said I think you need to callhim, I think he's gonna be able
to help you.
And I was just like don't getme wrong Like I was raised on
faith, like I know the value offaith, but in that moment that
is not what I was needing orasking for.
And it's just.
It's interesting to me how evenothers in the helping fields
can think oh, I have the answerFaith is what you need and I'm
(26:14):
gonna make sure that that's thecourse that you take, or I'm
gonna highly recommend that'sthe course you take, to the
point where I don't even offeryou another option.
So I was never given any typeof referral to a therapist or
any type of education.
And then, as I was leaving,everyone was looking at me like
I was about to just stand thereand slip my wrist or something.
It was insane.
Chris Conley, LPC (26:33):
Yeah, self disclosure myself.
For the reason and I'm verypassionate about this topic is
because I've been enmeshed in it.
Right, I think that's how maybenot for everybody, but a lot of
us find our passions in mentalhealth.
Work is either our ownexperiences or those of people
who are close to us, but I'vespent a lot of time working in
faith communities churches tothe point of even being on staff
(26:55):
at churches and I've alwayswrestled with this tension of I
see a lot of people who get hurtin these systems by these kind
of abusive, manipulativerelationships.
But I also see the value ofsomebody who has a really
genuine, meaningful faith, andso my career has bounced back
and forth between those twoarenas to where now I'm on a
(27:19):
mission to figure it all out andhelp other people figure it out
.
Dr. Barlow (27:23):
I love that.
I love missions of figuring itout for ourselves.
And what can we do then to helpothers figure it out?
That's one of my favoritemissions, so that's so awesome.
Tell me, how can someone who'sexperienced faith or spiritual
abuse and therapy begin theprocess of healing and
overcoming that and even gettingback on a therapeutic journey?
Chris Conley, LPC (27:44):
Yeah, starting is always the hardest
part for stuff like this,especially if you do come from
one of those places we were justtalking about earlier where
maybe therapy is not fullysupported or a little frowned
upon.
But I'll frame it this way man,if this is like somebody who's
listening and they're like Idon't know, I'm in this weird
place, just take some time andreflect on your feelings,
(28:08):
explore the beliefs of yourfaith tradition as objectively
as possible.
But be upfront too when you doget to a counselor, if you're
aware that this is what's goingon, because actually what I find
is a lot of people don't knowthis is a big part of what's
going on, until it's unmaskedafter some therapy.
(28:28):
But if you know, be upfrontwith your therapist.
Say, hey, I'm really strugglingwith my religion and its impact
on my life.
Hey, I'm having a hard timebecause I think God is good, but
my life is terrible right nowand I don't know how to
synthesize those ideas.
Just being honest, and onething I don't think in general
(28:50):
that I don't clients don't knowis it is okay to interview your
therapist a little bit and askhey, I'm really having a hard
time because my family broughtme up to be Muslim, but I don't
really believe those thingsanymore, but I want my parents
to still like me.
Is that something you think youcan handle?
To you understand the Islamicfaith?
(29:11):
You can ask your therapistthose questions.
So if you know that's a part ofwhat you're dealing with, ask.
The other thing I reallyencourage people to do, which is
hard for a lot of us, is leanon social supports if you have
healthy social supports andthat's where it gets tricky,
because sometimes your socialsupports can be enmeshed in that
(29:31):
faith community and so theymight not be helpful.
But if you know you havefriends or family who can be
objective and love you and notpushing agenda on you and are
willing to listen to you even ifthey don't have solutions,
leaning on those kinds of things.
And then the internet is a wildWest frontier of good and bad.
(29:52):
There's actually a lot ofplaces you can go online to find
support, whether it's throughchat groups, reddit, forums.
There's even a handful oforganizations out there that
specifically exist to helppeople navigate faith.
Christ Preparing for this.
I was looking for some groupsto share.
There's groups out there thatare for like are you a pastor
(30:13):
who doesn't have faith anymorebut don't know how to make a
transition in your life.
There's a group for that.
There is a group that sharesresources for finding therapists
who are exclusively secularists, so that if you're so wounded
by faith, you don't have toworry about a therapist doing
(30:35):
anything in that arena, even ifby accident.
But it's hard.
It's hard to get started inthat process.
Dr. Barlow (30:44):
For sure.
So you mentioned some reallygreat options for resources.
Are there specific websites orlinks that you could share with
our listeners in case they wantto go there, and we'll also
include it in the description ofthe transcript for this podcast
as well.
Chris Conley, LPC (30:59):
Yeah, there are three I had here already,
thank you, there's many.
And then there's also placesthat are just general online
chat forums in general, likeReddit, where you can go find a
group.
There is a recovering fromreligion excuse me, recovering
from religionorg which is aresource for people who are
grieving belief, which is hugebecause, again, like at one
(31:22):
point, you believed some of this, maybe, or this faith system or
even this pastoral relationship, contributed to how your world
worked and now it doesn't.
Like that's a grieving processto move on from.
I thought the world worked thisway and now it doesn't.
But that's recovering fromreligionorg.
Org is that secular network Iwas talking about.
(31:45):
And then clergy projectorg isspecifically for clergy who are
grieving a belief system.
And then there is a screenerthat clinicians can use called
the spiritual harm and abusescale S, h A S, and the URL to
get there is really long, but ifyou just Google spiritual harm
(32:08):
and abuse scale, it will come upin your top one or two search
results and it's like most ofour screenings where it has a
bunch of questions and like yourscales and rate this and rate
that to help.
It's obviously not going to beable to give you a full
diagnosis or anything?
Not that there's really aspiritual abuse diagnosis
anyways, but it's definitely agood way to take like an
(32:30):
objective tool the gauge orsomebody's that.
Dr. Barlow (32:35):
That's awesome.
I didn't even know that scaleexisted, so that's really great.
I'll definitely be sure toshare that resource out with my
group as well.
So what are some key takeawaysor messages of hope that you'd
like to leave us, our listeners,with today?
Chris Conley, LPC (32:50):
Yeah, number one is I think if you have a
meaningful faith, it can be verybeneficial to your overall well
being and mental health.
It's easy to talk aboutspiritual abuse, religious abuse
.
It's really easy for that to godown a path of religion.
It could be harmful and bad.
No abusive religion can be bad,but healthy religion is
(33:14):
actually pretty good for people.
Right, it gives us a moralcompass, it gives us purpose, it
gives us meaning and providesan area for us to build social
relationships, all of whichanybody who's worked in mental
health for more than fiveminutes we know that brings life
to people.
So I think the important thingto remember is it's when those
abuse, those relationships areabusive.
(33:36):
There's manipulation, there'spower, and I'm going to go back
to where we started by sayingyou think about it the way you
think of any abuse.
Right, An abuse and abusiverelationship happens because a
relationship that's supposed tobe trusted and safe becomes
unsafe.
But that only happens becausethere is a understanding there
(33:59):
that this is supposed to be atrusted relationship.
Right, the domestic abuse in aromantic relationship is doubly
hurtful because that's supposedto be a trusted relationship.
The kid that's neglected andnot taken care of by his parents
like that's doubly hurtfulbecause that's supposed to be a
trusted relationship.
And I would say it's the samewith our faith or spirituality.
(34:22):
That's supposed to be a healthy, trusting relationship.
And the people who representthat, whether that's pastors,
priests, mentors, family membersall these folks like if those
relationships are healthy,they're great, but if they're
abusive, then they're doublyharmful.
But if you're a therapist, youdon't have to be religious or
(34:46):
have any kind of deep spiritualpractice to be able to help
these folks.
One of the things I always tellmy residents supervises and
turns is when you feel stuck onsomething, you go back to the
basics.
Right, You're active, listening.
Tell me more about that.
How does that make you feel?
How is that impacting you?
And you can throw like aeducation in there about how
(35:08):
trauma works.
You don't have to be like oh, Ijust happen to be the expert on
abusive Hindu practices.
You're in the right place.
You don't have to be thatperson.
So I don't know.
I could talk to you about thisfor hours, so I'm going to stop
now before I do that.
Dr. Barlow (35:27):
No, I appreciate it so much.
I think it's been such a greatconversation and I love that
last note of just reallyreiterating on that.
You don't have to knoweverything.
Be a listener and be curiousLike these people are coming to
you and bearing their soulwhether it's about past abuse
with family or religion orwhatever they're coming to you
(35:48):
for therapy for.
Be a listener, ask questions,don't expect to know everything.
That makes you a greattherapist because you're willing
to get to know this person andwork with them as a team, not
somebody that's going to tellthem what to do.
And I think that was probablyone of my favorite things I
learned early on was you're nothere to give advice Like you are
(36:10):
, not like an advice column,you're not like an article
writer or somebody's coming toyou for you to tell them what to
do.
That's not what a therapist is.
Therapist is having someone onyour team to help you find the
plan that you're going to check.
Whether that plan is going towork or not.
There's no guarantee but theone that you're comfortable
trying, and then we're going togo from there.
We're going to reevaluate.
(36:31):
If it didn't work, we're goingto see why not, and then we're
going to try again.
That's what therapy is.
Chris Conley, LPC (36:37):
Yeah, I've been practicing for a long time
and the longer I practice youcan learn specialties and go get
your continuing ed and all thatand you should.
But I'm surprised at just howeffective the basics are.
To literally look at somebodyand say that sounds hard, tell
me more.
And it's such a healing moment.
Dr. Barlow (36:58):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Like just the value and nottrying to have all the answers,
because I think so many times inlife people like to be
educators, even whether theyhave any business educating you
or not.
People want their opinions, andthat's not what therapy is Like.
Therapy is not for your opinion.
Therapy is for theevidence-based practices and you
(37:21):
being a good listener for yourclient and really validating
what they're going through.
So thank you so much again,chris, for joining us today to
have this conversation.
We haven't had thisconversation yet about faith and
spiritual therapy and I reallyappreciate your time today and
all of our listeners.
Stay tuned.
Our next episode drops nextFriday.
Chris Conley, LPC (37:41):
All right, thanks for having me.
Dr. Barlow (37:46):
The Kinder Mind Podcast is produced by Dr
Elizabeth Barlow, edited byMarco.
Antonio with music by PAXMinerva.
Welcome to the Kinder Mind podcast, where we're
devoted to opening upconversations and destigmatizing
mental health.
We'll bring you interviews withpractitioners in the field of
mental health, researchersuncovering new knowledge and
best practices for treatingmental health disorders, and
individuals sharing their mentalhealth journey.
A big welcome to our KinderMind podcast listeners.
(00:22):
I'm Dr Barlow and today I'mjoined with Chris Conley, LPC,
to talk about exploring abusefaith, spiritual, religious
abuse and counseling and toreally open up this topic and
explore what this means, whatthis looks like, how this is
experienced, and to really haveChris share his professional
(00:44):
expertise on his experiences andwhat he's seen in the field.
Thank you so much for joiningus today, chris.
It's great to have you.
Chris Conley, LPC (00:51):
Yeah, thank you so much.
It's good to be here.
I like taking any opportunity.
I can't talk about this subject.
It's important out there, but Idon't hear a lot of people
talking about it.
Dr. Barlow (01:04):
For sure.
So when I was actually readingthrough your experience and even
this topic of faith andspiritual religious abuse, I was
trying to figure out what anglewe're approaching it from,
because what my brainimmediately went to was being in
kind of a spiritually abusivesituation with maybe a church or
(01:26):
a past religion.
But then I think there's also acontext of where you could work
with a therapist who might havea very hard and fast stance on
oh you should pray about it oryou should do this or that.
Tell me what context we'retalking about it in today.
Chris Conley, LPC (01:45):
Yeah, I think when most at least in the
conversations I have when mostpeople think about spiritual or
religious abuse, they thinkabout the things on the news
where maybe there are scandalsin certain churches with actual
other types of abuse like sexualabuse, physical abuse and those
definitely fit.
But I think of it as more alongthe lines of when that
(02:09):
spiritual or religiousrelationship a person has is
abused or manipulated bysomebody who is maybe in some
sort of position of power orauthority in that structure to
take advantage of a person.
So that could be a therapistwho brings a spiritual lens into
their practice.
That could be a pastor or apriest or a religious leader.
(02:33):
It could also just be somebodyin the family or a mentor who
holds a spiritual yeah, I use aspiritual authority over
somebody.
Dr. Barlow (02:43):
Okay, so like a parent or like a religious
figure and really using faithand spirituality to incorporate
it into the abuse.
Chris Conley, LPC (02:54):
Right, and that might be things where
somebody shames a teenager who'smaybe engaging in, like some,
sexual behavior.
They come from a religiousbackground, or maybe that's not
accepted, and instead oflovingly guiding somebody into
whatever this agreed upon moralstance is, it's using that to
(03:17):
push shame, to push guilt on aperson and then to overtake them
or overpower them, and a lot oftimes, it serves the aggressor
in terms of stroking their ego.
A lot of times, you'll seenarcissistic individuals in that
position.
The best way that I try tothink about it, though, is the
(03:37):
person's relationship with God,the universe, the divine,
however you want to define thatspiritual piece is as
significant a relationship as aromantic relationship or a
family relationship, and when welook at those kinds of
relationships, we're pretty goodat identifying what's abusive,
(03:59):
and that's when something inthat relationship is not
treating the other person well.
So we think about domesticviolence.
That's a trusted relationshipwhere, now, one person is taking
advantage of and manipulatingthat relationship.
We think about neglect withkids, and that's where somebody
in a power authority in thatrelationship is not doing by the
(04:20):
child, and a lot of times it'sserving ego or it is a power
grab, a control grab.
I know, abuse is way morecomplex and there's layers far
beyond that.
That's a good framework forthinking about how spiritual or
religious abuse can work too.
That's a very and just like theother ones that we just
(04:42):
mentioned, it can be manipulatedand bring harm.
Dr. Barlow (04:46):
Absolutely, and you made a really great point about
those types of abuses and thebyproducts of that and the
feelings and emotions that comeinto play, and even the mental
health disorders experienced byclients who have gone through
domestic abuse, sexual abuse,things like that.
How does faith or spiritualityoften intersect with mental
health in the form of abuse?
Chris Conley, LPC (05:09):
Yeah.
So this is where part of mesaid you stick to that framework
of how would you look at abuseand other situations, and then
you apply to the spiritual orreligious lens, and so I'll just
use those two experiences I usethe moment ago.
If you have somebody who's in aromantic relationship and now
domestic violence takes place,there's going to be the
(05:31):
potential for depressivesymptoms, anxious symptoms, fear
, anger, all these things.
Existential crisis, becausethis relationship I thought was
safe is now not safe and all thethings that come along with
that.
And so it's anything.
The kid is going to neglect theparents, who are supposed to
love me, to take care of me,provide for me.
(05:52):
Now they're not safe andthey're not doing their thing.
So it leaves the same kind ofsymptoms, potentially of
depression, anxiety, stress,trauma, all those things.
What's the same withspirituality and religion?
If I have a worldview that saysthe world works this way,
whether that is God protects usor that is Jesus loves me, or
(06:15):
that is the multitude ofdifferent beliefs that are out
there, once an abuse enters intothat relationship, that stuff
starts to be questioned.
Right, okay, so Jesus loves mebecause that's what my pastor
taught me, but now my pastor ismanipulating me, hurting me,
taking advantage of me, thatwhole worldview starts to
crumble.
(06:35):
And if that view crumbles, justlike these other relationships
now I'm having depressivesymptoms, anxious symptoms,
fears, thinking about like mywhole world is changing.
Dr. Barlow (06:48):
I think that's a really interesting concept to
think about, because I know thatwhen we talk with clients,
often our focus, especially inthe beginning of working
together, is to understand theclient's worldview and to have
them really inform us of.
What does your culture looklike?
What does your world look like?
What's your core belief system?
(07:08):
How was that formed?
And I think it's a really greatpoint to incorporate faith,
like faith is a very big part ofa lot of individuals core
belief systems and what makesthem who they are.
So I think that's really notonly interesting but profound
that you put so much faith in ahigher power, as so many do.
(07:30):
What happens when that crumbles?
What happens when that is a bad, negative, abusive relationship
?
What are some common signs orlike red flags for you that
might indicate that a clienteither may have experienced
faith or spiritual abuse, ormight even be in a faith or
spiritually abusive relationshipright now?
Chris Conley, LPC (07:51):
Yeah, it's hard to know with certainty
because when it comes toreligious, spiritual things
there's a bit of subjectivity toit and things that I might hold
in my moral compass of how theworld should work.
We know this as counselors andtherapists.
Our worldviews are alwaysaligned with our clients.
(08:12):
So I think you can get stucksometimes if you see somebody
who's in a religious practicethat you just don't like or that
you don't think is good orbeneficial, and you can be
tempted to fall into thinkinglike maybe that's not good for
them, maybe that's abusive.
So I try to think about it inclinical terms.
If I see somebody who isexperiencing depressive symptoms
(08:36):
, anxious symptoms, and thenwhen the thing of spirituality,
their religion, their faithsystem or lack thereof comes up,
if I notice a correlation there, I might start to explore to
see if there is somethingabusive in that connection.
So if you do intake withsomebody starting to get to know
(08:58):
them and they identify as acertain religion, and then the
more you get to know them intherapy, as they talk about it,
when that topic comes up youhear language of guilt and shame
, a lot that can point you to it.
But you just notice when theytalk about it.
They don't seem to feel greatabout it.
That's an indicator that, evenif it's not abusive, all the way
(09:21):
that there's somethinguncomfortable about that part of
their world.
And again, that's wheresubjectivity makes it hard to,
because a lot of religions doteach there's a tension between
our existence in the world andthe spiritual dimension, and so
tension is not necessarily evena bad thing.
But those are the things youlook for is how does your client
(09:44):
, how does our body languagechange when they're talking
about faith or faith experiencesor relationships within their
faith community?
Do they flat out expressconfusion, or do they express
tension or disbelief or conflict?
And at that point you can digdeeper with them.
Dr. Barlow (10:03):
I was thinking, as you were speaking, about a
client that I worked with over ayear ago who was a college age
student and very faith based,and one of the first
conversations we had she wasfeeling symptoms of depression
and dread and just a lot of selfloathing because she could not
(10:27):
stop having sexual intercoursewith her boyfriend and every
time she would have an orgasmshe would cry and immediately
break down and hate herself forweeks at a time because she felt
that God was mad at her forthat and that was interesting
(10:48):
for me to hear.
But then not really a farstretch, because I know some
religions it's God has vieweddifferent ways.
It's not not every religion isthe same.
So some religions it's verymuch abstinence, fire, brimstone
, like doomsday revelations.
Other religions are much morelike loving and open and maybe
(11:11):
it's not even the religion butthe church you go to the pastor,
the preacher, the reverend.
So for her this was a reallybig life situation when she felt
really stuck and lost and sadabout.
I'm interested to hear if youhappen to have a client that
you've worked with in the pastthat you could share with us
just to help illustrate what itmight look like for someone to
(11:35):
be going through this in reallife.
Chris Conley, LPC (11:38):
Yeah, I have one that really comes to mind.
I worked with years ago camefrom a pretty conservative,
fundamental Christian backgroundand I'd maybe be clear I don't
have anything against anyreligion or faith, but this
young man identified as beinggay and when he came to see me
for counseling he wanted to seeif I could help him not be gay.
(12:01):
And, of course, walking himthrough that conversation in the
intake, I told him I was likethat's not really a thing we
could do.
However, I'm happy to help youexplore why you're having these
tensions, etc.
Etc.
It all ended up boiling down tohis belief that being gay was
wrong in the eyes of God and sohe wanted to not be that.
(12:23):
And this is where it getsreally hard, because if somebody
has a conviction from theirfaith that says this, I have to
not challenge what they believeabout their faith, because you
want to respect somebody's faith, and so it's more like pointing
out what you're hearing andtrying to get down to find a
(12:45):
conclusion about it.
What I ended up doing with thisguy after I don't even know how
long is.
I just asked him how he knowsthat Right.
So how do you know that beinggay is wrong in the eyes of God.
And he shared like I go to thischurch and my preacher preached
this sermon.
Okay, cool.
So that's like one one piece ofevidence and column, a here,
(13:09):
what else?
And he said something aboutmaybe reading an article or
something here or there.
Oh yeah, just reading an articleor seeing something on the
internet, and I didn't just pushback, oh that's silly or
anything.
I was like cool, that's thatstuff you've read that's
convinced you of this, awesome.
What I challenged him to do WasI said you're making a decision
(13:34):
about how you live your lifeBased off of what you told me a
preacher said and some articlesyou've read.
He did you know what your holybook says for yourself?
And he said he had an idea.
So my challenge to him is youare making a decision that has a
huge impact on your life,because if you believe being gay
(13:55):
is wrong in the eyes of God andyou live by that conviction,
then your choices to live in away that you think is harmful to
what you believe about theworld, or You're gonna practice
some version of abstinence orchastity and miss out on what
most of us would considerfundamental human experience
(14:17):
romance, companionship, sexualgratification.
And I just challenged him I'mlike man, I just study that
stuff for yourself.
The Bible is an old book.
It's.
Most people, I think, wouldagree there's wisdom in there,
but there are thousands of waysto interpret that.
And I just challenged or saiddo it for yourself.
(14:38):
I said, if you do the work andyou study it and you still land
on that conviction, cool, I'mnot gonna tell you not to have
it, but then you can at leastfor yourself know you got there
honestly and that's what youreally believe, and it's not
something that you're justTaking from somebody else who
could potentially have an agendaor a misunderstanding of things
.
And and he did that and, to befair, I don't know if he fully
(15:03):
landed- it anywhere before wedischarged.
But I could see that he reallytried to engage that process.
Dr. Barlow (15:09):
I Think that's so great that you were able to Do
what was necessary on your endas a helping professional and
not tell him like, oh, thatsounds messed up or this sounds
right.
Chris Conley, LPC (15:22):
But allow him to Make that choice and help
him to really dig through andask the questions and I'll say
the secret with that is that'swhat we do with a lot of other
areas and counseling right.
If you have a client that'sdating somebody that you think
is bad for them, unless you'retalking about something where
(15:43):
there's imminent danger, youdon't necessarily argue.
I don't know if that's the bestgirlfriend for you or if
somebody's talking about takinga job and you just don't think
it's a great I we don't pushthat.
I think because a lot of ushave our own personal
convictions on these things andthen in some areas, like our
culture is really loud on what'sright and wrong.
(16:04):
But I think it makes it easierfor our therapist to be tempted
to jump in there and be get somesort of answer man, that sounds
really silly, like why wouldyou even think about that?
But without recognizing thisperson is at the place they are
because they've been on a paththat's led them to really
believe and think these thingsand I actually I run the risk of
(16:25):
, if I'm super dismissive ofthat, I'm almost at the risk of
making them feel just reallydumb.
Right, you've been a rust, ifyou've been a wrestling with
this for your whole life, andlike in five minutes I tell you
well, that's really stupid, am Itelling you've been an idiot
your whole life.
And then what does that do forthe therapeutic relationship and
(16:45):
what does that do for themtrying to find peace of mind in
whatever they're battling ortrying to figure out?
Dr. Barlow (16:53):
Absolutely, completely negates any type of
Positive therapeutic impactyou're gonna have with that
client.
If you're immediately just, youshouldn't be thinking that way
or living that way.
We can't come with the answers.
Our clients have the answersand it's our job to help them to
see that they have thoseanswers and get Beyond that.
I can only see my hand in frontof my face.
(17:14):
I can't see 10 feet in front ofmy face.
Absolutely that makes tons ofsense.
I think that brings up a reallygreat kind of next question Can
you tell us about the ethicalresponsibilities that mental
health professionals have whenaddressing faith or spirituality
in therapy with clients?
Chris Conley, LPC (17:32):
Yeah, number one is this is your client's
time, so this is not a time foryou to have an agenda.
Spiritually, religiously and Iknow there are some faith
traditions that in the contextof the house of worship they do
have some pretty strongconvictions about fossilizing or
(17:53):
sharing your faith with peopleand, like, the therapy room is
just not the place for thatbecause it removes.
It just removes the objectiveor, yeah, the objectivity in the
relationship.
But it's just.
It's also it's not over there,for no, that doesn't mean that
if you're a deeply religiousperson, you can't be a good
therapist.
(18:14):
You just have to be aware ofthat stuff and it's similar to
almost like political stuff aswell.
I don't know if you saw this,but when the COVID times and the
couple of years leading up toCOVID times, where politics and
issues in our culture were justreally hot and heavy in the news
cycle, I was literally asked byclients who I was voting for
(18:39):
because they were going to makedecisions about if they could
trust me as their therapistbased on that.
Dr. Barlow (18:44):
Oh, wow, yeah.
Chris Conley, LPC (18:46):
I had to walk .
I had to walk them through likewhy we're not talking about
that?
And, of course, if at any pointyou don't think I'm a good
therapist, I want you to seesomebody you feel good about.
But religion is the same wayfor a lot of people.
There's that strong feeling.
It's not uncommon for people towant a therapist who bears that
with them.
So I run a practice here inVirginia Beach, virginia, and a
(19:08):
lot of times we get a questionor request of hey, I want a
Muslim therapist, hey, I want anatheist therapist, hey, I want
a Christian therapist.
Like, when we can, we do ourbest to accommodate that.
But also, that's not the placefor the place for our therapist
to come in with a religiousagenda, even if that therapist
(19:30):
is convinced that there are somegood tools in that.
I think it's clear that healthyreligious practices for the most
part are good for our mentalhealth.
You can say, if you havesomebody who is your client and
they're a Buddhist but they'renot really practicing any of the
Buddhist practices and nowthey're talking to you about
having some stress, depression,existential conflict, there's
(19:54):
benefit to saying, hey, are youmeditating?
Hey, are you doing A, b and C.
That's a worthwhileconversation, but that's because
you identify that as aneffective coping skill or
something in their life that issupposed to bring them some
encouragement or peace.
It's not the same as me sayinghey, actually you sound stressed
(20:15):
like I'm a Buddhist and one ofthe things that we really do is
we take a lot of time formeditation and self-reflection.
You could totally be a Buddhistlike me and find some peace.
That's where there's adifference between welcoming
someone's faith and faithpractices into the relationship
of counseling versus bringingyours in there.
(20:36):
And then, on top of that, it'svery important to be upfront too
, and if you don't knowsomething about your clients'
religion that they've identified, they don't try to pretend you
do ask questions, that you cando so appropriately and
non-judgmentally.
Most people don't mindexplaining that stuff to you if
you seem genuinely curious, butyou can't try to pretend like
(21:00):
you get that stuff if you don'tget that stuff, which is hard
for some therapists, becausethen they might feel like
they're not doing a good job ifthey have to ask those kinds of
questions, because sometimes Ithink we feel the pressure to
know everything and of course,we can't know everything.
That's why we do podcasts likethis, so we can keep learning.
Dr. Barlow (21:20):
Absolutely, and I love that point, and that is one
of those pieces that I amalways shouting from the
rooftops with my supervisees andany interns that I have at our
therapy group is it is not onlyokay to not owe everything, it
is an expectation to not knoweverything, because the second
(21:42):
that you think that, exactlywhat this client is going
through, you just made anassumption and you are
horrifically wrong.
And that is a lot of the clienteducation piece, too, that I
love to have conversations withclients about, because it's not
about finding the right agetherapist, it's not about
(22:03):
finding the therapist that haslived your experience and that's
the only person that's going tobe able to help you.
It's about finding a goodtherapist.
And what does that mean?
What is a good therapist?
A good therapist is someone whois willing to learn and maybe
they have experienced some ofthe same things that you have.
They're not going toimmediately bring that up.
(22:25):
They're only going to have thatself-disclosure if it's
appropriate and it does no harm.
For an example, I have workedwith clients who have been
survivors of date rape.
I myself have never been raped.
That doesn't mean that I can'twork with you and I can't give
you the space to educate meabout what you went through,
(22:45):
because rape victims aren't thesame.
There's no directlycorrelatable experience among
all rape victims and if I'veworked with one, then I've
worked with 50, no, they're allindividuals.
They're all different.
They all have their own story.
So it sounds like that's thesame thing when it comes to
faith is it's not the same faithdenomination.
(23:07):
It might even still beChristianity, but one person's
experience with their faithmight not be the exact same.
And if you are a therapist offaith or a Christian therapist
working with a Christian client,that doesn't necessarily mean
that your client worships theway that you do and that they
believe what you believe.
Chris Conley, LPC (23:25):
So really having that realism and that
yeah, there's two really greatpoints in there.
Like you were just saying, youcould take something as plain as
I'm a Christian, I'm a Muslim,I'm an Hindu, and that doesn't
mean the same thing person toperson.
I know this most intimately inthe Christian circle, like
(23:46):
there's a wide spectrum fromlike super fundamental,
conservative Christians all theway to like very liberal, open
Christians, hundreds ofdifferent denominations, and so
there's a lot of differencesthere.
But the other thing that kindof came to my mind while you
were saying that is, I think thereason those requests are made
(24:08):
by clients is going back to whatwe said towards the beginning,
right, no-transcript orspiritual system as a really big
part of their worldview.
And so there is going to besome comfort.
If I'm going to embrace insomething that's heavy like
counseling therapy, maybe evenscary, because I've never done
it, I'm nervous.
It's nice to know that I sharethat worldview, even if that's
(24:33):
not completely true, it's acomforting factor.
And then there are some faithtraditions or branches of faiths
that are not the mostsupportive of counseling and
therapy, and so to say, hey,this one's okay because they're
an Hindu like me, they're aMuslim like me, so this isn't
just like that secular, terriblecounseling stuff.
(24:54):
So those are, I think, a coupleof reasons why those requests
come in like that, and I dothink there's value to honoring
that where you can.
Dr. Barlow (25:02):
I completely agree and, like you said, and I even
gosh, I have a personalexperience where that's happened
before.
I was raised Catholicself-disclosure and during my
time in grad school I just had ababy my husband's in the
military.
I'm thinking of doing a gradschool and I just felt really
(25:22):
overwhelmed.
I'd never been in therapy.
Chris Conley, LPC (25:24):
I'd never even entertained that idea.
Dr. Barlow (25:26):
So go to my primary care doctor because of my
insurance and I asked for areferral to talk to a
psychiatrist.
I didn't even know that therewere other forms of therapy and
this was 2010.
So not incredibly long ago, andthe doctor looked at me like I
was crazy, immediately left theroom.
The nurse came in and gave methe number, burger pastor, and
(25:50):
said I think you need to callhim, I think he's gonna be able
to help you.
And I was just like don't getme wrong Like I was raised on
faith, like I know the value offaith, but in that moment that
is not what I was needing orasking for.
And it's just.
It's interesting to me how evenothers in the helping fields
can think oh, I have the answerFaith is what you need and I'm
(26:14):
gonna make sure that that's thecourse that you take, or I'm
gonna highly recommend that'sthe course you take, to the
point where I don't even offeryou another option.
So I was never given any typeof referral to a therapist or
any type of education.
And then, as I was leaving,everyone was looking at me like
I was about to just stand thereand slip my wrist or something.
It was insane.
Chris Conley, LPC (26:33):
Yeah, self disclosure myself.
For the reason and I'm verypassionate about this topic is
because I've been enmeshed in it.
Right, I think that's how maybenot for everybody, but a lot of
us find our passions in mentalhealth.
Work is either our ownexperiences or those of people
who are close to us, but I'vespent a lot of time working in
faith communities churches tothe point of even being on staff
(26:55):
at churches and I've alwayswrestled with this tension of I
see a lot of people who get hurtin these systems by these kind
of abusive, manipulativerelationships.
But I also see the value ofsomebody who has a really
genuine, meaningful faith, andso my career has bounced back
and forth between those twoarenas to where now I'm on a
(27:19):
mission to figure it all out andhelp other people figure it out
.
Dr. Barlow (27:23):
I love that.
I love missions of figuring itout for ourselves.
And what can we do then to helpothers figure it out?
That's one of my favoritemissions, so that's so awesome.
Tell me, how can someone who'sexperienced faith or spiritual
abuse and therapy begin theprocess of healing and
overcoming that and even gettingback on a therapeutic journey?
Chris Conley, LPC (27:44):
Yeah, starting is always the hardest
part for stuff like this,especially if you do come from
one of those places we were justtalking about earlier where
maybe therapy is not fullysupported or a little frowned
upon.
But I'll frame it this way man,if this is like somebody who's
listening and they're like Idon't know, I'm in this weird
place, just take some time andreflect on your feelings,
(28:08):
explore the beliefs of yourfaith tradition as objectively
as possible.
But be upfront too when you doget to a counselor, if you're
aware that this is what's goingon, because actually what I find
is a lot of people don't knowthis is a big part of what's
going on, until it's unmaskedafter some therapy.
(28:28):
But if you know, be upfrontwith your therapist.
Say, hey, I'm really strugglingwith my religion and its impact
on my life.
Hey, I'm having a hard timebecause I think God is good, but
my life is terrible right nowand I don't know how to
synthesize those ideas.
Just being honest, and onething I don't think in general
(28:50):
that I don't clients don't knowis it is okay to interview your
therapist a little bit and askhey, I'm really having a hard
time because my family broughtme up to be Muslim, but I don't
really believe those thingsanymore, but I want my parents
to still like me.
Is that something you think youcan handle?
To you understand the Islamicfaith?
(29:11):
You can ask your therapistthose questions.
So if you know that's a part ofwhat you're dealing with, ask.
The other thing I reallyencourage people to do, which is
hard for a lot of us, is leanon social supports if you have
healthy social supports andthat's where it gets tricky,
because sometimes your socialsupports can be enmeshed in that
(29:31):
faith community and so theymight not be helpful.
But if you know you havefriends or family who can be
objective and love you and notpushing agenda on you and are
willing to listen to you even ifthey don't have solutions,
leaning on those kinds of things.
And then the internet is a wildWest frontier of good and bad.
(29:52):
There's actually a lot ofplaces you can go online to find
support, whether it's throughchat groups, reddit, forums.
There's even a handful oforganizations out there that
specifically exist to helppeople navigate faith.
Christ Preparing for this.
I was looking for some groupsto share.
There's groups out there thatare for like are you a pastor
(30:13):
who doesn't have faith anymorebut don't know how to make a
transition in your life.
There's a group for that.
There is a group that sharesresources for finding therapists
who are exclusively secularists, so that if you're so wounded
by faith, you don't have toworry about a therapist doing
(30:35):
anything in that arena, even ifby accident.
But it's hard.
It's hard to get started inthat process.
Dr. Barlow (30:44):
For sure.
So you mentioned some reallygreat options for resources.
Are there specific websites orlinks that you could share with
our listeners in case they wantto go there, and we'll also
include it in the description ofthe transcript for this podcast
as well.
Chris Conley, LPC (30:59):
Yeah, there are three I had here already,
thank you, there's many.
And then there's also placesthat are just general online
chat forums in general, likeReddit, where you can go find a
group.
There is a recovering fromreligion excuse me, recovering
from religionorg which is aresource for people who are
grieving belief, which is hugebecause, again, like at one
(31:22):
point, you believed some of this, maybe, or this faith system or
even this pastoral relationship, contributed to how your world
worked and now it doesn't.
Like that's a grieving processto move on from.
I thought the world worked thisway and now it doesn't.
But that's recovering fromreligionorg.
Org is that secular network Iwas talking about.
(31:45):
And then clergy projectorg isspecifically for clergy who are
grieving a belief system.
And then there is a screenerthat clinicians can use called
the spiritual harm and abusescale S, h A S, and the URL to
get there is really long, but ifyou just Google spiritual harm
(32:08):
and abuse scale, it will come upin your top one or two search
results and it's like most ofour screenings where it has a
bunch of questions and like yourscales and rate this and rate
that to help.
It's obviously not going to beable to give you a full
diagnosis or anything?
Not that there's really aspiritual abuse diagnosis
anyways, but it's definitely agood way to take like an
(32:30):
objective tool the gauge orsomebody's that.
Dr. Barlow (32:35):
That's awesome.
I didn't even know that scaleexisted, so that's really great.
I'll definitely be sure toshare that resource out with my
group as well.
So what are some key takeawaysor messages of hope that you'd
like to leave us, our listeners,with today?
Chris Conley, LPC (32:50):
Yeah, number one is I think if you have a
meaningful faith, it can be verybeneficial to your overall well
being and mental health.
It's easy to talk aboutspiritual abuse, religious abuse
.
It's really easy for that to godown a path of religion.
It could be harmful and bad.
No abusive religion can be bad,but healthy religion is
(33:14):
actually pretty good for people.
Right, it gives us a moralcompass, it gives us purpose, it
gives us meaning and providesan area for us to build social
relationships, all of whichanybody who's worked in mental
health for more than fiveminutes we know that brings life
to people.
So I think the important thingto remember is it's when those
abuse, those relationships areabusive.
(33:36):
There's manipulation, there'spower, and I'm going to go back
to where we started by sayingyou think about it the way you
think of any abuse.
Right, An abuse and abusiverelationship happens because a
relationship that's supposed tobe trusted and safe becomes
unsafe.
But that only happens becausethere is a understanding there
(33:59):
that this is supposed to be atrusted relationship.
Right, the domestic abuse in aromantic relationship is doubly
hurtful because that's supposedto be a trusted relationship.
The kid that's neglected andnot taken care of by his parents
like that's doubly hurtfulbecause that's supposed to be a
trusted relationship.
And I would say it's the samewith our faith or spirituality.
(34:22):
That's supposed to be a healthy, trusting relationship.
And the people who representthat, whether that's pastors,
priests, mentors, family membersall these folks like if those
relationships are healthy,they're great, but if they're
abusive, then they're doublyharmful.
But if you're a therapist, youdon't have to be religious or
(34:46):
have any kind of deep spiritualpractice to be able to help
these folks.
One of the things I always tellmy residents supervises and
turns is when you feel stuck onsomething, you go back to the
basics.
Right, You're active, listening.
Tell me more about that.
How does that make you feel?
How is that impacting you?
And you can throw like aeducation in there about how
(35:08):
trauma works.
You don't have to be like oh, Ijust happen to be the expert on
abusive Hindu practices.
You're in the right place.
You don't have to be thatperson.
So I don't know.
I could talk to you about thisfor hours, so I'm going to stop
now before I do that.
Dr. Barlow (35:27):
No, I appreciate it so much.
I think it's been such a greatconversation and I love that
last note of just reallyreiterating on that.
You don't have to knoweverything.
Be a listener and be curiousLike these people are coming to
you and bearing their soulwhether it's about past abuse
with family or religion orwhatever they're coming to you
(35:48):
for therapy for.
Be a listener, ask questions,don't expect to know everything.
That makes you a greattherapist because you're willing
to get to know this person andwork with them as a team, not
somebody that's going to tellthem what to do.
And I think that was probablyone of my favorite things I
learned early on was you're nothere to give advice Like you are
(36:10):
, not like an advice column,you're not like an article
writer or somebody's coming toyou for you to tell them what to
do.
That's not what a therapist is.
Therapist is having someone onyour team to help you find the
plan that you're going to check.
Whether that plan is going towork or not.
There's no guarantee but theone that you're comfortable
trying, and then we're going togo from there.
We're going to reevaluate.
(36:31):
If it didn't work, we're goingto see why not, and then we're
going to try again.
That's what therapy is.
Chris Conley, LPC (36:37):
Yeah, I've been practicing for a long time
and the longer I practice youcan learn specialties and go get
your continuing ed and all thatand you should.
But I'm surprised at just howeffective the basics are.
To literally look at somebodyand say that sounds hard, tell
me more.
And it's such a healing moment.
Dr. Barlow (36:58):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Like just the value and nottrying to have all the answers,
because I think so many times inlife people like to be
educators, even whether theyhave any business educating you
or not.
People want their opinions, andthat's not what therapy is Like.
Therapy is not for your opinion.
Therapy is for theevidence-based practices and you
(37:21):
being a good listener for yourclient and really validating
what they're going through.
So thank you so much again,chris, for joining us today to
have this conversation.
We haven't had thisconversation yet about faith and
spiritual therapy and I reallyappreciate your time today and
all of our listeners.
Stay tuned.
Our next episode drops nextFriday.
Chris Conley, LPC (37:41):
All right, thanks for having me.
Dr. Barlow (37:46):
The Kinder Mind Podcast is produced by Dr
Elizabeth Barlow, edited byMarco.
Antonio with music by PAXMinerva.
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