September 29, 2023 • 64 mins
Imagine you're handed a puzzle, and as you start piecing it together, realize some key pieces are missing. Frustrating, isn't it? That's how it feels to confront complex conditions like conversion disorder and functional neurological system disorders (FND). Thankfully, we're unraveling this intricate puzzle with our special guest, Amy Terrio, a licensed clinical mental health counselor and registered nurse. Amy brings both a professional and personal perspective as she shares her own journey with FND. Together, we'll dissect potential triggers, delve into the human body and brain, and understand the impact of our reactions to life's hurdles.
Step deeper into the labyrinth of human cognition as we explore the unsettling realm of dissociation, a potential precursor to FND. Uncover how an overstimulated brain can shift into a self-preservation mode, resulting in profound effects for those with FND. In addition, we navigate the uncharted territories of cognitive behavioral therapy and psychoeducation to address negative cognitions, which could be the lingering ghosts of past experiences.
Finally, we shine a spotlight on the profound impact of stress and trauma on our mental and physical health. Revealing the hidden ways past trauma can resurface and how perpetual panic and fear can manifest physical symptoms, we also discuss the possibility of spiraling into a mental health crisis. Amy brings her experiences in assisting clients with conversion disorder and FND to the fore, emphasizing the significance of emotional acceptance, self-healing, and the power of advocacy. Don't miss out on this enlightening exploration into these complex disorders, understanding them, and seeking the right support. Let's piece together this puzzle, one insight at a time.
Resources:
FND Hope International: https://fndhope.org/
Functional Neurological Disorder Society: https://www.fndsociety.org/
Amy Therriault, MA, LCMHCA, NCC, BSN, RN: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/amy-g-therriault-dunn-nc/1007063
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (00:01):
Welcome to the Kindermind podcast, where
we're devoted to opening upconversations and destigmatizing
mental health.
We'll bring you interviews withpractitioners in the field of
mental health, researchersuncovering new knowledge and
best practices for treatingmental health disorders, and
individuals sharing their mentalhealth journey.
Thank you so much for joiningus today for the Kindermind
(00:22):
podcast.
Today we are speaking with AmyTerrio, a licensed clinical
mental health counselor andregistered nurse.
We're going to be exploringconversion disorder functional
neurological system disorders.
Thank you so much for joiningus today, amy.
Thank you, thank you for havingme.
(00:42):
So I am not going to lie.
I'm going to be supertransparent.
I had no idea what neurologicalsystem disorders were, what
conversion disorder was, so Ihad to do some Googling.
I had to educate myself alittle bit.
I definitely think there is waymore out there that I don't
know about this disorder.
So I'm very excited to betalking to you today to really
(01:04):
unpack what this is, what itlooks like and what it means.
So could you start out for usby just explaining what
conversion disorder is and howit differs from other mental
health or neurologicalconditions?
Amy Therriault (01:18):
To start with, conversion disorder is what is
listed in our traditional DSM-5.
But in the more recent DSM-5text revision they actually
reversed the way functionalneurological disorders and
(01:39):
conversion disorders aredisplayed.
So instead of being conversiondisorder parentheses functional
neurological, now it is, or atleast in the text revision it is
referred to as the functionalneurological disorder,
parentheses conversion.
(02:00):
So conversion disorder itselfstarted out as, I guess, brain
freeze haunts, it happens.
Yeah, conversion disorder isreally best described as like
the electrical and chemicalsignaling between groups of
(02:25):
neurons, larger brain structuresand regions.
They're not working togetherfor some reason and most people
from the medical community lookat that conversion as, oh my
goodness, this person is justmaking random complaints or they
(02:53):
are drug seeking, and these arethe stigmas that go with,
specifically, conversion butbrain freeze.
(03:56):
So if you want to just tell uswhat it is and how it's
different from other mentalhealth things, so the actual
term conversion was more fromcreated, more in the belief that
traumatic stresses areconverted into functional
neurological symptoms throughpsychological mechanisms that
(04:23):
certainly there it was eitherall brain or all body, and now
we know that the two are sointerconnected that any stressor
can actually propel a feelingof dysfunctional neurological
disorder, pardon me, to manifestitself and become present.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (04:48):
Okay.
Does that have anything to doalong the lines of the thinking
of the body keeps the score?
I'm not sure.
Absolutely Okay.
Absolutely, that makes a lot ofsense.
So what are some commonsymptoms and manifestations of
conversion disorder?
What are some things you wouldsee in a client or someone who
(05:09):
has this disorder?
Amy Therriault (05:12):
The clients that I have worked with, and then,
once I've read about forresearch, typically it begins at
the doctor's office, not in thetherapy room.
So you go to the doctor andyou're having headaches, muscle
weakness, you're having somenumbness and walking becomes
(05:35):
unsteady, or maybe navigatingspares becomes more difficult.
And so a lot of people head tothe doctor and of course they
already asked Dr Google what mydiagnosis is, and so that tends
to lead them down a rabbit trailof multiple sclerosis,
(06:02):
parkinson's disease, epilepsy,naming a few, and then
physicians do their thing andthere is no real underlying
(06:25):
structural cause.
So then this typically leads tothe referral to a mental health
clinician or counselor, becausein the past it's been so
interlinked with emotional orpsychological crises.
So if someone comes in and saysI haven't been walking that
(06:47):
great lately or something ofthat nature, speech flow changes
in tones, or that a person mayspeak with, some people have
vision problems, but therereally is no cookie cutter of
(07:10):
functional neurologicaldisorders.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (07:14):
That sounds like a nightmare of a
situation as a patient andreally as a physician.
Oh, yeah, Because I think wecan probably all what's the word
I'm looking for empathize,sympathize with when you've got
something medically going on andyou're scared.
You don't know what it is, youdon't know what's wrong.
(07:35):
Oh, you know, as you have thesesymptoms and, like you said, Dr
, Google what is wrong with meand you get that, the gambit of
all the things that could be.
Amy Therriault (07:45):
Which that only precipitates even more anxiety.
Absolutely absolutely.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (07:52):
And then you're taking all of these tests
and they've got you going forlike imaging and blood work and
hopefully you have goodinsurance.
Amy Therriault (07:59):
Absolutely, because some of these tests and
diagnostics are even like in thecase of multiple sclerosis or a
lot of the inflammatory problemdisorders require things like
lumbar punctures, also known asthe spinal tap.
(08:19):
Sometimes they require tissuebiopsies.
And so you're not only going toyour primary care physician,
but now you're seeingrheumatologist, neurologist,
dermatologist the whole gambitphysicians and trying to nail
(08:43):
down why you can't seem to walkstraight or why you can't use
both hands or write steadily onyour paper anymore, and there's
nothing to shut.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (09:00):
So it sounds like the patient goes
through all of this kind ofwhat's the word I'm looking for.
Medical scrutiny, right,medical scrutiny, and just like
a laundry list of it's been aday.
I can't think of my wordseither.
What am I trying to say?
It's when you go down that listof things and you cancel them
(09:25):
out.
Amy Therriault (09:26):
Yes, you're trying to exclude that, you're
trying to pull out the things,but isn't so.
Every doctor, like aneurologist, may be looking for
areas of ischemia in the brainor where perhaps there's been a
(09:46):
stroke, or looking for otherblood clots.
You have numbness in your hands.
The doctor may look at you andsay, oh, you need to go see a
hand specialist, you might havecarpal tunnel, and all of that's
very true.
You just might.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (10:07):
Right.
Cross-sectional eliminationthat's the word I was looking
for.
Yes, there we go.
So then.
So knowing that these differentaspects of conversion disorder
can really present in like amultitude of ways and diagnosing
like what is actually going oncan be a really big challenge.
It sounds like, after theclient and the doctor, or the
(10:30):
patient and the doctor, havegone through all of these things
, if things are still likeinconclusive or things show that
there's actually nothingmedically wrong with them, is
that when you would see adiagnosis of conversion disorder
?
Amy Therriault (10:46):
Conversion typically has been.
It's more of a psychiatric,psychological diagnosis code.
However, neurology has beenable to step in and they too now
are using some of these DSMcodes for complications that
(11:16):
some of their patients may behaving.
And then at that point, thediscussions based on research
are getting more patientsensitive from doctors' offices
or from neurology departmentsand realizing that you're not
(11:39):
always gonna have a neat, nicediagnosis in a box and it's
gonna have a bow on it andhere's what you got and go forth
.
And so those discussions lookokay, all of your test results
are negative, and then it'sblank stare and the patient is
(12:01):
on the other side going.
How can my visual disturbancesor my inability to speak in
complete sentences withoutmultiple pauses, how are you
telling me that is something Ineed to see a counselor for?
That's ridiculous.
(12:23):
And so then, when they come tous, they're not only disgruntled
with the medical system, butthey're also just at their wits
end.
They just want someone tobelieve that it's happening with
them and it is a very realdisorder.
(12:45):
Even though maybe the seizures,the seizure activity, may not be
epilepsy, it doesn't mean thatthere's not a disconnection
somewhere in the brain,momentarily causing a person to
faint or even have muscle ticks.
(13:08):
We see a lot of times peoplewho are on the computer for long
hours tend to get the eyeticking and stuff like those
nerves that run around our eyeswill start twitching.
And yes, it's from eye strain.
(13:28):
But the second half of thatstatement, it's the strain, it's
the stress that is causing thatspecific nerve area to twitch
and act up and be bothersome.
That's not a problem per se,but it is if you say drive a
(13:50):
forklift Right, or you're right.
So now we've got this huge.
Now it involves work, now itinvolves these daily activities
of living.
And so how do I do this?
What?
How can there not be somethingwrong?
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (14:13):
Is right, yeah, no, that makes a lot of
sense.
And not to go into the weeds,but self disclosure.
Another reason I was so excitedto learn more and talk about
this topic today is my daughter.
Actually, she's nine years oldand ever since she had, like
just turned eight, she has beenhaving ticks.
(14:34):
She's developed these ticks.
Some have gone away, but thenwe've noticed that as one leaves
, another one comes.
And I was recalling back towhen I was about eight years old
.
I had a tick and it lasted forabout a year.
It's where I would, so I got acut in my mouth.
And like when you cut the cornerof your mouth with a potato
(14:56):
chip.
The cut never really healed,well cause I would continuously
open my mouth overly wide, and Iwas so when I was researching
these ticks.
It seemed like the process andthe behavior of doing the tick
releases a lot of energy fromyour body and if you don't do it
(15:17):
then you feel like you'reliterally going to explode like
restless leg syndrome.
Amy Therriault (15:22):
Yes.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (15:23):
So I was.
So what are the potentialcauses and triggers for these?
Is it something that just somepeople have and they don't?
Or is it something with age?
Amy Therriault (15:32):
maybe In full disclosure of myself, I have
been diagnosed with functionalneurological disorder.
In 2018, I had been a nurse for12 years was at the top of my
game professionally was I wasworking for the state.
(15:54):
Great, secure job, goodbenefits, 401, yay, we're there
and I started noticing that Iwas.
My hair was thinning and, as anurse, I go down my own list of
what do I need to pay.
So we go through all theproducts and we look at our
(16:15):
shampoos and stuff like that,and then I thought, okay, let me
go to my doctor and make suremy thyroid isn't out of whack,
because that, too, can't causeit.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (16:26):
Okay, so you had to start your own
journey of the process ofelimination.
Amy Therriault (16:31):
Right, yeah, and it was just about a one year
long stroke over the course oftime.
So I came out of nursingbecause it was different.
Well, the brain fog was soprofound it was like my body was
(16:54):
so focused on, from the neckdown, trying to coordinate
muscle movement and justnavigating life that six
functions that I had done foryears in my profession became
increasingly difficult and Istarted just like losing blocks
of time.
And so I just happened to knowa psychiatrist through family
(17:25):
connections and I had.
I got home one afternoon andleft my car running overnight in
the driveway and the next day Iwent in and I said I don't know
what's wrong with me, but I'mlosing my mind.
(17:46):
And from the period of my life Iwas in a state of depression,
from the period of time that Ihad spoken to this person last
to the time I showed up in theiroffice, my speech had become
very choppy, very slurred Infact.
(18:07):
I remember he looked at me andhe said when did you begin
stuttering?
And I was like, what are youtalking about?
But and so it.
I went through the gamut MRIsthey looked for multiple
sclerosis, they looked forLyme's disease, they looked for
(18:30):
all these different things,ended up losing all of my hair
and just was unable to navigate,walking up and down stairs,
bilateral carpal tunnel surgeryfor nerve pain in my hands, all
(18:50):
trying to get to what it wasalmost like an inflammatory
storm in my body and I couldn'tpinpoint where.
Why is this happening?
And when conversion was firstmentioned to me, I was honestly,
I was like I was honestly, Iwas appalled because that's
(19:14):
something that other people dealwith.
Right, I'm a healthcareprovider, I know what stress is,
I know what all the other stuffis and I don't have it.
So rule that out, find outwhat's medically wrong, and went
in and they did more lumbarpunctures and functional PET
(19:39):
scans and all kinds of stuff andit was like you're getting
older but you don't haveAlzheimer's and we don't know.
Maybe we need to see acounselor and I just so that led
me to pursue my master's degreein mental health counseling.
(20:01):
What better way to pull yourselfout of the place of despair
than educating yourself?
I've got to learn how to dealwith this.
I'm gonna have to work.
What can I do that I cancontrol some of these things
(20:25):
that seem so big, that seem tobe stumping me?
So Vanderkalk's book was veryinstrumental in not only my
healing but just the greaterunderstanding of the human body,
(20:47):
the brain, and how they are sointertwined with trauma, and
just the everyday stresses oflife.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (20:59):
Right, and as you were talking not to
bring up a completely randomconnection story, but it really
did.
I was thinking about my journeywith dismissing, there being
anything wrong with mentalstress or anything like that
Cause, like you mentioned, whenyou went through your journey,
your reaction was I'm a nurse.
(21:19):
No, like, I know stress.
I know what that looks like.
It can't be that, and I think Ihave suffered from the same
thing in my past.
Of no, I am a strong person.
I can control my reaction tothings.
I am in charge of my mind.
And I think one of the biggestturning points for me actually
(21:41):
was when I was in the hospitalin labor with my first child, my
son, and I was not in pain.
I physically was feeling nopain.
And my OBGYN came into the roomand she said your body is not
having this baby because of yourpain.
(22:02):
And I was like I'm not feelingpain, there's some mistakes you
don't understand and she's no,your body has shut down from
life and is not having this baby.
And it was interesting cause mybrain wasn't processing pain.
I was feeling no discomfort,but my body was in such pain
(22:22):
that it wasn't doing what it wassupposed to do.
That's when, I think, I reallyfirst took it serious that your
brain and body aren't alwaysconnected.
They can act independent ofeach other and wires do get
crossed.
So if that can be true, thenwhy can't it be true that this
thing that you're stressed can'tnegatively impact you and you
(22:46):
maybe not be aware of it?
Amy Therriault (22:48):
Absolutely, and that's a lot of what, as I
traced my steps back, whatthrough the course of my life,
where I went to school, they dida wonderful job of and I would
imagine that most graduatecounseling programs are similar
(23:09):
to this but not only are youlearning how to help others, but
you're also learning a lotabout yourself, and so I started
having to do research invarious types of trauma and
stuff like that, and when Ireally thought about it, being
(23:33):
even just being a nurse initself set my physical body up
to.
It was like cartwashed towhatever, and I had break.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (23:54):
Yes, no, and that's such a great point
because you're right.
I remember in my graduateprogram that it was talked about
how, if you're gonna helpothers, you need to get to know
yourself.
But really I am completelyobsessed with Renee Brown, love
that woman and I remember in oneof her speeches she was talking
(24:14):
about her experience as aresearcher and how, before she
could get into like otherpeople's mess and sort through
it, she needed to get to knowher own mess.
Amy Therriault (24:26):
Oh yeah.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (24:27):
That just made so much sense to me and I
feel like it's one of thehardest things that some
individuals live their wholelife and they never really get
to know themselves.
And that's why I just love andappreciate every single mental
health client I ever meet oranybody that ever comes into my
therapy group, because theyshowed up and they took that
(24:50):
scary first step of oh God, Idon't know what I'm gonna find
out about me.
Yes, it's scary, but I showedup and I'm gonna do it, because
you don't know how you're gonnahandle those things and really
being honest with yourself is ahard thing to do.
Amy Therriault (25:07):
It really is, and especially in the case of
functional neurologicaldisorders, you have to be
willing to accept yeah, I mightbe in the grocery store line and
actually dissociate, and that'snot, that is okay.
(25:27):
So what's leading up to that?
There's a lot of noise in thestore.
You hear all the shopping carts, the wheels going, the kids
screaming, four aisles away theloudspeakers, everybody's
talking, and it's sensoryoverload, absolutely.
And then for a momenteverything's clear.
(25:51):
And then, when you leave, you'relike what was I thinking back
there?
And then you realize I just wasstanding up by I don't know,
just because I was holding theshopping cart.
I wasn't present in my body,though.
And so when we look at thatfrom a functional neurological
(26:13):
standpoint, that is, the humanbody and brain actually
providing like self preservation, now that too can become a
problem, and that's where yougotta really be careful, because
dissociation is one thing ifyou're not thinking about it and
(26:40):
you're like, okay, I justwhatever.
But if someone is so profoundlyaffected by an FND, then their
dissociation, the brains oh wait, I get to rest if I do this and
then that in itself becomes apsychological problem instead of
(27:07):
just the rescue mode, so tospeak.
That reminds me of something Iheard one time.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (27:12):
I can't remember where I can't remember
if it was like a leadershipsummit or a community meeting.
I don't remember if it was likea leadership summit or where it
was, but the person that wasspeaking was talking about
burnout they were talking aboutbeing overstimulated and they
basically I think the wholetenant of the conversation was
(27:33):
multitasking can be a really badthing, oh, my.
They had us all think abouttimes when we have been driving
on our way home from work and itfelt like we got home too fast.
And we didn't.
You don't even remember it.
Yes, you don't remember whenyou turned, you don't remember
(27:54):
taking that exit, you don'tremember that lane change, you
don't remember putting on yourblinker and then all of a sudden
, you're home and is that kindof what we're talking about here
?
Things that can happen likethat?
Amy Therriault (28:06):
Absolutely.
And now that kind ofdissociation is, that is, a
muscle memory type of thing,where you know your way.
It's a past.
You've gone down multiple timesand just by muscle memory you
(28:27):
get there.
However, where your thoughtsare during that time is really
interesting to go back and thinkabout.
Oftentimes we can't evenremember what we were thinking
about as we were driving, thatwe dissociated from as we're
pulling out of the parking lot,and those kind of events happen
(28:54):
regularly, especially if it'srepetitive.
All the time you're doing thesame thing.
You can leave and come backbecause if somebody in front of
you as you pulled out, ifsomebody in front of you slams
on brakes, that moment when yousee those brake lights and all
(29:18):
those thousands of neuronsmillions of them in your backs,
there behind your retina and allthat stuff they begin
processing the fact that thebrake lights are in front of you
and we step on the brake.
That's that moment where youcome back into yourself and
(29:39):
you're like, okay, I need tostay present in my car, not
think about who's gonna babysitFriday night.
Right, snap out of that moment,right, right.
And that's something that mosteveryone can relate to in some
way or another cooking dinner,washing laundry we all dream of
(30:03):
other things and just somehowget these menial tasks done.
If you're pulling away fromyourself, though, in moments
where it's any sort of stressfultime, if somebody has
difficulty being in hospitals, alot of people have a fear of
(30:25):
hospitals and stuff, and whenthey go into them, they just
blank out Right, that's whatever.
And this is where it all startscircling around.
Whatever it was that thatperson attached to being in a
hospital, it could have beenfive minutes ago, it could have
(30:48):
been 30 years ago, but it'scausing you not to be present.
What is that?
And then that's wherecounseling.
We go back and we look at okay,so why is it when you're
walking through the doors atWalmart?
Why is it?
(31:09):
Do you?
Does your heart start racing,do you?
When, then asking people toreally tune into that, when they
feel themselves beginning todissociate because of anxiety or
because of just hearing a song?
(31:30):
Maybe that brought back amemory and it's just too much.
So somehow you move on tosomething else.
You've got to get to the rootof that and discover where did I
attach something painful towhat is happening in my present?
(31:52):
Because I'm not in the pastanymore.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (31:56):
Right, so it sounds like cognitive
behavioral therapy is reallythat, like first go to for
treatment.
Amy Therriault (32:01):
And it is.
Some of it is.
It's Unfortunately there hasn'tbeen an immense amount of
studies done on what therapeuticmodality works best.
Cbt is incorporated a whole lot, because what do we have
(32:29):
attached to all of thesenegative events or whatever?
We like to carry aroundnegative cognitions as well, and
so when I take an experiencethat I may have had with a
family member and I attach allthis pain to it, then in the
(32:52):
future, if I encounter somethinglike that, my past tells me I'm
not good enough, I'm not goingto be successful at that,
because that's a negativecognition you've carried, maybe
since childhood, and so, okay,we got to work out that negative
cognition too.
(33:12):
So you're using a lot of CBTand a lot of psychoeducation.
I have my clients, actually, ifthey are able to pick up Vander
Colt's book and there are acouple of great workbooks out
(33:32):
there and I actually read thebook with them and we go from
one chapter to the next, and sothey're getting the anatomy
lesson and they're getting allthis knowledge with someone that
is able to say, okay, this iswhat that word means, because
(33:54):
it's a very dense material, butbeing able to go through that
and it is unbelievable, theclients that have been able to
extrapolate from their childsome of where a lot of this
comes from, because they nowunderstand how it got put in
(34:18):
there anyway, along with lookingat developmentally.
For instance, your daughter iseight years old, nine years old,
and there may have been justsomething inocuous happened and
at that moment perhaps sheblinked her eyes really hard and
(34:40):
so and that kind of reset,whatever that moment was for her
, and then okay, so two weekslater she's still blinking her
eyes really hard whenever she'sgot to maybe critically think or
whatever the activity is.
Finding a way to explain thebrain, obviously to a pediatric
(35:10):
aged client is a littledifferent, but it's still the
same system.
We can draw pictures to helplink the dots until,
content-wise, someone's older tounderstand them.
But it's still being able tounderstand how the brain works.
(35:36):
It enables and empowers myclients.
That's the word I was lookingfor empowers.
So as they read through thisbook, I may ask the question how
, in what ways do you relate towhatever person you may be
talking to, or a client when wemeet in a session?
(36:00):
Perhaps has been journaling andthe pieces start clicking in
what their body is feeling.
They're able to use thatmindfulness of why am I
clenching my jaw so tight?
Breathing Isn't a huge thing.
(36:23):
Why am I holding my breath?
That's the first thing I alwayswhen I do my checks.
If I'm starting to feelstressed, the first thing I do
is ask myself are you breathing?
Breathe because your brain'snot going to work without oxygen
, so quit holding your breath.
Use simple strategies.
(36:46):
When a person knows that takingthat breath will actually make
a difference and the sciencebehind it, then it means a
little bit more than just aclinician going.
We'll just take some deepbreaths.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (37:04):
No, that makes a lot of sense, and not to
throw a curveball at you, but Iknow so you mentioned like CBT
can be helpful.
Do you know of any instanceswhere EMDR has been used, if
this disorder is related to anypast trauma or anything?
Amy Therriault (37:22):
Absolutely.
It is the eclectic therapist'skind of ball of wax, so to speak
, because there's not.
Every person is different.
Every person's journey to thispoint is different.
They may not be beneficial.
(37:43):
It may be that they are looking, you may have to incorporate or
help them getting in touch withtranscranial magnetic
stimulation.
But the T has only shown to bebeneficial in those with the
(38:04):
motor types of functionalneurological disorders.
T has become a big thing nowwith working with past stresses
or working with major depressivedisorder, and it too is right
(38:25):
there, linking together our bodyand mind, in that it allows the
person to actually be to facethe fear in enough of a euphoric
state that they're not fearfulof it and they're able to begin
(38:47):
processing it.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (38:49):
Can you tell us what TMS is for any
listeners who maybe have neverheard that before?
Amy Therriault (38:56):
Magnetic stimulation is the use of
magnets to stimulate areas ofthe brain that may not, that may
be under functioning and quietdown some of the others.
So if you think for all of uswho have seen one flu over the
(39:21):
coopus ness electro convulsivestherapy we think of that being
so barbaric.
But the reset on the brain isactually really helpful in
getting people out of adangerous state.
(39:44):
The trans-magnetic stimulationit's like going into the CAT
scan machine and I think that'sright.
The CAT scan machine andthey're running these magnets
(40:09):
uses that magnetic field tostimulate the brain into
improving the electricalimpulses running through the
brain.
So it's really bizarre.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (40:30):
I think yeah, and it makes a lot of
sense because our body has a lotof electricity in it.
We know that we get a lot ofenergy which is created by
electricity built up anytimewe're reactive because we're
angry or we're stressed orletting that out.
So it sounds to me like drawingthe correlation of this
(40:51):
disorder when thosecommunications get crosswired
and things with your body andyour brain and how you're
feeling and how you'reoverwhelmed aren't processing
correctly.
It sounds like a tool that youwould use to reset that process
Exactly.
Amy Therriault (41:08):
And that's really where collaborating with
other healthcare professionalsbecomes really critical, my
being like a clinical mentalhealth counselor.
I don't necessarily case managein the traditional sense.
(41:29):
I'm more the social worker role, so to speak.
But you find yourself when youget really embroiled into
functional neurologicaldisorders.
There's no possible way that I,singularly, can diagnose
(41:53):
functional neurologicaldisorders without the
collaboration of other treatmentand physicians that look at
other things.
There are certain tests thathave to be done, and so it opens
up the door for counselors toperhaps become a little closer
(42:22):
to case managers at the sametime.
Obviously, if people cliniciansand comfortable addressing these
kinds of things, then that's.
I'm obviously looking at thiswith two lenses, one being the
(42:42):
nursing and the other being thehealthcare system that I've
accessed in my previousprofession that work for me now.
So I ask the questions aboutmedications and stuff like that,
because I've got thepharmacological background and
(43:08):
can be in touch withpsychiatrists, physical
therapists and stuff to be ableto weigh out whether treatments
are effective or not, becausethey may see the client once
every three months.
I may have to see them twice aweek to a certain level of, just
(43:35):
for the client to be able tosee some relief and most of that
at the beginning is just beingpresent.
That's it.
That's all you're doing.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (43:48):
Right, and that validation piece it sounds
.
I believe you.
Like you said, you're not alonein thinking this is a problem
that you're experiencing.
I believe you.
Amy Therriault (43:58):
Yes, absolutely.
And now that newer research iscoming out daily just about on
this and the additional, theeasiest or one of the ways that
I've I have my clients reallytune into themselves is going
(44:26):
through your body sense, goingthrough your five senses.
What are you seeing?
What are you hearing Smelling?
Can you taste anything?
How does your do you feel thatyour heart's racing?
Or like when we look at someoneand we say, are you okay?
And they're like why, what do Ilook like?
(44:47):
And you're like, look, you looka little nervous.
Right now I'm not, but thenwhen you get back, when you get
him in your relaxed, you're like, wow, my shoulders are killing
me.
I must have been holding themup to my ears the whole day.
Right, that's just your bodycompensating in some way in a
(45:12):
more critical way.
Our fight or flight, that kindof that triggered moment, where
is there?
Am I going to be attacked?
Am I at risk for something?
The brain doesn't differentiatebetween the bully and the polar
(45:33):
bear, for instance.
We have reason to fear both, butthe chances of me running into
a polar bear in North Carolinaare slim than none, and so I
know it can be a polar bear butit may be the bully that's
causing that surge of adrenalineand cortisol and it just dumps
(45:58):
out all throughout your body andit leaves especially in
healthcare providers leaves yourunning in a perpetual state of
fight or flight.
So if you can imagine, like atone point in time when I was
(46:19):
going through my masters and I'mthinking about all the years I
spent in nursing and there wassomewhat of a nursing shortage,
not like during COVID, but therehave been times where, my
goodness, I stayed working inthe emergency room.
(46:41):
I stayed in fight or flight for12 solid hours because we were
just that busy and everything'scritical.
So you're always running andyou're multitasking, which we
know now really isn't the bestthing for your body.
But what do all these hormonesdo?
(47:01):
As they're forcing through ourbloodstream, they're depleting,
they're interrupting your normalbalance in your own body, and
then we have GI upset, we havepeople now that you're going to
(47:22):
get a cold or you're not goingto sleep good or your lists of
just all these random symptoms,and it's almost.
I predict this alone will createits own issues in healthcare,
(47:44):
because so many of ourhealthcare providers are so
burned out and they are just sotired that any kind of trauma
they've experienced prior tohaving to run do their jobs.
(48:05):
Law enforcement, caredepartments, all these they're
constantly in a state of goodand that can destroy parts of
your body that you aren't evenaware of.
And I joke with a colleague ifI ever decide to get my PhD, my
(48:33):
area of interest with researchis in first responders.
How many of those are actuallyhaving to leave the workforce on
short term disability or justleave it all together because of
the stress alone causing orbeing linked to other parts of
(49:00):
their bodies just breaking down,and that's going to create a
problem.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (49:06):
Oh, absolutely.
And as you were talking, I wasthinking of a personal
experience and I've never been afirst responder, but I was
thinking about so.
I was bullied really bad inhigh school, and so I remember
going to see agastroenterologist one time when
(49:27):
I was a young adult and I wasvery caught off guard because
the gastroenterologist said oh,we typically see this in people
who have a past history oftrauma or are currently being
abused.
Do you feel safe at home?
And I was just like that's themost ridiculous thing I've ever
heard.
I didn't say that out loud,obviously, but I saw it because
(49:47):
I was like no, I've never beenabused, like I'm not being heard
at home, like why would theythink that this could be a thing
?
And it wasn't until I became amental health provider that I
really started to think abouthow that affects me now.
So I don't do well withconflict.
The fear of the potential forconflict or being mistreated
(50:09):
scares me so much that now,before I leave the house to
travel, or I leave the house fora really important reason, I
get sick at my stomach and Ifeel well ahead of leaving the
house because I've alreadyworked myself up into thinking
what kind of conflict is goingto come my way, like how are
people going to perceive me andtreat me?
And I literally have beenworking on that for years and
(50:33):
sometimes you never come backfrom it, like with
gastrointestinal issues, likeonce it's there, it can be a
lifelong thing.
Once the trauma's gone, onceyou've worked through things,
you still may never recover fromthat.
Amy Therriault (50:46):
Oh yeah, you may always have motility problems
or people who talk about havingchronic constipation or chronic
diarrhea.
Or I can't eat this becauseit'll just work my nerves and
I'll end up in the bathroom forthe rest of the day.
And so what you find yourselfdoing is you're compromising
(51:09):
every other aspect of your lifeto avoid triggers, that
irritable bowel.
Now you're not living lifeanymore, right?
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (51:20):
Taking the lights, going to the airport,
driving the long car rides forvacation, like the things that
you have to think about andworry about because something
has happened either in your lifeor your career that you chose.
Like you mentioned firstresponders and they're always on
go, always in the realm oftrauma and now that's impacting
(51:41):
so many other facets of yourlife.
And that leads me to the nextquestion On the spot question.
So we recently talked in aprevious podcast about clients
in crisis, so clients actuallyexperiencing a mental health
crisis.
Would you say that clients withthis disorder are likely to
(52:03):
experience a crisis situationwhere they're mentally not safe
or physically unsafe becausethey've been going through these
physical and mental challenges?
Amy Therriault (52:15):
Right.
So and I would say, yes,anything is possible, but most,
and that's typically why, if I'mseeing somebody that has been
diagnosed with a functionalneurological disorder, I
typically see them at leasttwice a week.
(52:36):
And the reason I do that andinsurance may or may not like
that but the reason I do isbecause, having been in that
position as a patient andknowing that the doctor's gonna
see you for 15 minutes, bill youfor 20 and not give you any
(52:58):
answers, these specific, thispopulation is tired.
They just wanna be heard.
And can you please just standhere with me at the edge of the
cliff and we can back downtogether, because I can't drive
(53:23):
anymore, because I have theseevents or episodes and they're
not seizures, it's not epilepsybut I can't drive.
If you tell that to a 21 yearold, that's really gonna hamper
their lifestyle.
In fact, it's gonna disrupt allsocial interaction.
And so now you've got somebodystill developing their
(53:46):
pre-pharmal cortex being toldyou're not gonna be able to do
this and they're missing out ona big block of social
interaction, training, gettingthe mental calluses that you
need for when you're 30.
They're missing that becausethey're spending all of their
(54:07):
time trying to figure out what'swrong with them.
It is so.
So when someone does call andsay this particular office
referred me over to you for I'vebeen having these symptoms and
they just don't care.
And I do my intake with themand we go through all of this,
(54:31):
just all of this stuff they'vebeen told.
Sometimes I do request themedical documentation from their
neurologist or primary carephysician so that way I can have
a better understanding of howit presented to them.
(54:51):
But it's not always a functionalneurological disorder.
That's part of what we have todo is differentiate between a
somatic disorder or is it aconversion, and a lot of what I
look at with that is how is itaffecting their activities of
(55:14):
daily living?
Is this preventing them frombeing the provider they wanna be
?
And if they call me in crisis,then and heck, yes, I'm not
gonna be the one that's justgonna say don't know what.
It is rather okay.
So this is how I do mycounseling for this disorder and
(55:40):
I explain that to the client.
And, okay, are you willing toset the time aside?
That's needed so that you canheal, because this isn't in
every other week visit.
This isn't basic anxiety.
It's somebody who can't,they're paralyzed in their lives
(56:05):
and that in and of itself is acrisis, maybe not to the point
of suicidal ideation, but to abreadwinner that can't drive to
work and is missing hundreds ofdollars a day, that's a crisis
in itself.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (56:24):
Absolutely that, just oh yes, even
thinking through someone goingthrough that you can't provide
for your family anymore and thestress that could come from that
.
What advice would you give toindividuals who suspect that
they may have conversiondisorder but they have not yet
(56:45):
reached out for help?
Amy Therriault (56:47):
I would first say biggest piece of advice is
speak up, advocate for yourself,because right now the state of
healthcare is just in shambles.
It is unbelievable how long ittakes to get in with a mental
health clinician and then to tryand find someone that is, like,
(57:10):
specialized in specific thingsis even more difficult.
So advocate for yourself,scream it out loud to your
doctor.
I need you to look at me, andif you don't find anything great
, that's okay.
(57:31):
But at least I know that it'snot a brain tumor.
That's a beautiful thing.
But now what do I do with myspeech?
That's slurring.
And what do I do with my brainfog?
How do I deal with that?
And then that's where I wouldcome in and say, okay, I'm gonna
(57:52):
, we're gonna work on this acouple of days a week to start,
and then slowly you're.
Maybe, if they're showingpositive outcomes and great
strides, then we can back downto once a week.
(58:13):
But this is over an enormousamount of time, like a year.
The client that I have now I'veseen actually just almost a
year, and they have madeenormous strides in their
ability to even leave the houseand being able to utilize tools
(58:37):
from CBT, the mindfulnesstechniques, just using them all.
And then next would be solidifyyour support.
If a specific person is gonna beyour go-to for help in moments
(59:00):
that you're feeling really downabout the things that you are
not in control of, thatparticular person being a part
of the treatment, so that thedoor is open for me to
(59:21):
communicate, maybe with thedriver of this client or the
aunt who's taking care of themright now, because they can't be
left alone.
And don't be afraid to ask forhelp, especially to first
responders, to people who workin healthcare, to even each
(59:47):
other.
As mental health clinicians wehear a lot, and if you think
that you're not gonna beaffected in some way vicariously
in learning of other people'straumas, I would I don't know, I
(01:00:10):
would just about guarantee thatat some point in time of your
life, all of that, all of it Icry on a weekly basis and it is
I have come to embrace that notas something that I'm sad about,
but rather that is my physicalbody releasing all of the pain
(01:00:37):
and the disappointment and thefeelings of betrayal and disgust
and panic that my clients feelthat they bring in to therapy.
It's gotta go somewhere and ifyou're empathic in any kind of
way, then, even throughtechnology, it passes right
(01:01:02):
through the screens and I findmyself maybe at the end of a
week and I'm just so tired andsaddened for the people that are
having to go through the thingsthey are that I make sure I
spend time and just cry and beokay with that.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (01:01:25):
It's okay to let that emotion out and you
walk away a lot healthierAbsolutely so it sounds like
advocating for yourself, findinga really reliable support
person, being okay with crying,being okay with letting out what
(01:01:48):
you're feeling Because it'sholding it all in.
Amy Therriault (01:01:52):
That's what's causing all the upset to begin
with.
The first time a client looksat you and goes I'll just put it
all back together, it'll beokay, I'm all right, I'm fine.
But I'm like no, you're not.
Here's a box of tissues.
Do we have to play stillmagnolias or something for you
(01:02:14):
to feel comfortable with yourfeelings?
Is that the only no dad didthis?
Oh, okay, now we're gonna dig alittle in further and find out
where the tears are from andwhen we can accept ourselves, as
I think there's a healthybalance between what is
(01:02:35):
considered emotional regulationand allowing yourself to feel it
.
I could not agree more withthat statement.
That is not a powerfulstatement.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (01:02:46):
On that note, this was so educational
and I know a lot of listenersout there got some really great
information from this, whetherthey're going to be able to do
it or not, and I think that's agreat information from this,
whether they're going throughsomething like this or they have
a loved one or friend goingthrough this.
Thank you so much again, amy,for joining us today and talking
(01:03:11):
through this disorder with us.
Certainly, is there anythingyou'd like to say, any closing
words Let our listeners know,like where they can find you, or
anything else you wanna share.
Amy Therriault (01:03:22):
I am located in North Carolina.
I'm from the College ofPsychology to day profile that
they can find me on and infinding support.
There are some organizationsFND Hope International or FND
(01:03:43):
Hope USA, the FunctionalNeurological Disorder Society.
Those are great places thatpeople can link up and find
support groups as well asstaying on top of the absolute
latest research.
And being able to print thatout and put it in your doctor's
(01:04:05):
hand and say and go back toschool is a very empowering
thing for someone who doesn'tfeel like they've got it
together.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (01:04:15):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for sharingthat.
I will make sure that both yourpsychology today links and
those helpful resources that youshared can get linked in the
description for this podcast.
You are very welcome.
Thanks all of our listeners forjoining us on this episode of
the Kindermind podcast, where wediscuss exploring conversion
(01:04:36):
disorder, and stay tuned for ournext episode that will be
dropping in one week.
The Kindermind podcast isproduced by Dr Elizabeth Barlow,
edited by Marco Antonio, withmusic by Pax Minerva.
Thank you,
Welcome to the Kindermind podcast, where
we're devoted to opening upconversations and destigmatizing
mental health.
We'll bring you interviews withpractitioners in the field of
mental health, researchersuncovering new knowledge and
best practices for treatingmental health disorders, and
individuals sharing their mentalhealth journey.
Thank you so much for joiningus today for the Kindermind
(00:22):
podcast.
Today we are speaking with AmyTerrio, a licensed clinical
mental health counselor andregistered nurse.
We're going to be exploringconversion disorder functional
neurological system disorders.
Thank you so much for joiningus today, amy.
Thank you, thank you for havingme.
(00:42):
So I am not going to lie.
I'm going to be supertransparent.
I had no idea what neurologicalsystem disorders were, what
conversion disorder was, so Ihad to do some Googling.
I had to educate myself alittle bit.
I definitely think there is waymore out there that I don't
know about this disorder.
So I'm very excited to betalking to you today to really
(01:04):
unpack what this is, what itlooks like and what it means.
So could you start out for usby just explaining what
conversion disorder is and howit differs from other mental
health or neurologicalconditions?
Amy Therriault (01:18):
To start with, conversion disorder is what is
listed in our traditional DSM-5.
But in the more recent DSM-5text revision they actually
reversed the way functionalneurological disorders and
(01:39):
conversion disorders aredisplayed.
So instead of being conversiondisorder parentheses functional
neurological, now it is, or atleast in the text revision it is
referred to as the functionalneurological disorder,
parentheses conversion.
(02:00):
So conversion disorder itselfstarted out as, I guess, brain
freeze haunts, it happens.
Yeah, conversion disorder isreally best described as like
the electrical and chemicalsignaling between groups of
(02:25):
neurons, larger brain structuresand regions.
They're not working togetherfor some reason and most people
from the medical community lookat that conversion as, oh my
goodness, this person is justmaking random complaints or they
(02:53):
are drug seeking, and these arethe stigmas that go with,
specifically, conversion butbrain freeze.
(03:56):
So if you want to just tell uswhat it is and how it's
different from other mentalhealth things, so the actual
term conversion was more fromcreated, more in the belief that
traumatic stresses areconverted into functional
neurological symptoms throughpsychological mechanisms that
(04:23):
certainly there it was eitherall brain or all body, and now
we know that the two are sointerconnected that any stressor
can actually propel a feelingof dysfunctional neurological
disorder, pardon me, to manifestitself and become present.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (04:48):
Okay.
Does that have anything to doalong the lines of the thinking
of the body keeps the score?
I'm not sure.
Absolutely Okay.
Absolutely, that makes a lot ofsense.
So what are some commonsymptoms and manifestations of
conversion disorder?
What are some things you wouldsee in a client or someone who
(05:09):
has this disorder?
Amy Therriault (05:12):
The clients that I have worked with, and then,
once I've read about forresearch, typically it begins at
the doctor's office, not in thetherapy room.
So you go to the doctor andyou're having headaches, muscle
weakness, you're having somenumbness and walking becomes
(05:35):
unsteady, or maybe navigatingspares becomes more difficult.
And so a lot of people head tothe doctor and of course they
already asked Dr Google what mydiagnosis is, and so that tends
to lead them down a rabbit trailof multiple sclerosis,
(06:02):
parkinson's disease, epilepsy,naming a few, and then
physicians do their thing andthere is no real underlying
(06:25):
structural cause.
So then this typically leads tothe referral to a mental health
clinician or counselor, becausein the past it's been so
interlinked with emotional orpsychological crises.
So if someone comes in and saysI haven't been walking that
(06:47):
great lately or something ofthat nature, speech flow changes
in tones, or that a person mayspeak with, some people have
vision problems, but therereally is no cookie cutter of
(07:10):
functional neurologicaldisorders.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (07:14):
That sounds like a nightmare of a
situation as a patient andreally as a physician.
Oh, yeah, Because I think wecan probably all what's the word
I'm looking for empathize,sympathize with when you've got
something medically going on andyou're scared.
You don't know what it is, youdon't know what's wrong.
(07:35):
Oh, you know, as you have thesesymptoms and, like you said, Dr
, Google what is wrong with meand you get that, the gambit of
all the things that could be.
Amy Therriault (07:45):
Which that only precipitates even more anxiety.
Absolutely absolutely.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (07:52):
And then you're taking all of these tests
and they've got you going forlike imaging and blood work and
hopefully you have goodinsurance.
Amy Therriault (07:59):
Absolutely, because some of these tests and
diagnostics are even like in thecase of multiple sclerosis or a
lot of the inflammatory problemdisorders require things like
lumbar punctures, also known asthe spinal tap.
(08:19):
Sometimes they require tissuebiopsies.
And so you're not only going toyour primary care physician,
but now you're seeingrheumatologist, neurologist,
dermatologist the whole gambitphysicians and trying to nail
(08:43):
down why you can't seem to walkstraight or why you can't use
both hands or write steadily onyour paper anymore, and there's
nothing to shut.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (09:00):
So it sounds like the patient goes
through all of this kind ofwhat's the word I'm looking for.
Medical scrutiny, right,medical scrutiny, and just like
a laundry list of it's been aday.
I can't think of my wordseither.
What am I trying to say?
It's when you go down that listof things and you cancel them
(09:25):
out.
Amy Therriault (09:26):
Yes, you're trying to exclude that, you're
trying to pull out the things,but isn't so.
Every doctor, like aneurologist, may be looking for
areas of ischemia in the brainor where perhaps there's been a
(09:46):
stroke, or looking for otherblood clots.
You have numbness in your hands.
The doctor may look at you andsay, oh, you need to go see a
hand specialist, you might havecarpal tunnel, and all of that's
very true.
You just might.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (10:07):
Right.
Cross-sectional eliminationthat's the word I was looking
for.
Yes, there we go.
So then.
So knowing that these differentaspects of conversion disorder
can really present in like amultitude of ways and diagnosing
like what is actually going oncan be a really big challenge.
It sounds like, after theclient and the doctor, or the
(10:30):
patient and the doctor, havegone through all of these things
, if things are still likeinconclusive or things show that
there's actually nothingmedically wrong with them, is
that when you would see adiagnosis of conversion disorder
?
Amy Therriault (10:46):
Conversion typically has been.
It's more of a psychiatric,psychological diagnosis code.
However, neurology has beenable to step in and they too now
are using some of these DSMcodes for complications that
(11:16):
some of their patients may behaving.
And then at that point, thediscussions based on research
are getting more patientsensitive from doctors' offices
or from neurology departmentsand realizing that you're not
(11:39):
always gonna have a neat, nicediagnosis in a box and it's
gonna have a bow on it andhere's what you got and go forth
.
And so those discussions lookokay, all of your test results
are negative, and then it'sblank stare and the patient is
(12:01):
on the other side going.
How can my visual disturbancesor my inability to speak in
complete sentences withoutmultiple pauses, how are you
telling me that is something Ineed to see a counselor for?
That's ridiculous.
(12:23):
And so then, when they come tous, they're not only disgruntled
with the medical system, butthey're also just at their wits
end.
They just want someone tobelieve that it's happening with
them and it is a very realdisorder.
(12:45):
Even though maybe the seizures,the seizure activity, may not be
epilepsy, it doesn't mean thatthere's not a disconnection
somewhere in the brain,momentarily causing a person to
faint or even have muscle ticks.
(13:08):
We see a lot of times peoplewho are on the computer for long
hours tend to get the eyeticking and stuff like those
nerves that run around our eyeswill start twitching.
And yes, it's from eye strain.
(13:28):
But the second half of thatstatement, it's the strain, it's
the stress that is causing thatspecific nerve area to twitch
and act up and be bothersome.
That's not a problem per se,but it is if you say drive a
(13:50):
forklift Right, or you're right.
So now we've got this huge.
Now it involves work, now itinvolves these daily activities
of living.
And so how do I do this?
What?
How can there not be somethingwrong?
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (14:13):
Is right, yeah, no, that makes a lot of
sense.
And not to go into the weeds,but self disclosure.
Another reason I was so excitedto learn more and talk about
this topic today is my daughter.
Actually, she's nine years oldand ever since she had, like
just turned eight, she has beenhaving ticks.
(14:34):
She's developed these ticks.
Some have gone away, but thenwe've noticed that as one leaves
, another one comes.
And I was recalling back towhen I was about eight years old
.
I had a tick and it lasted forabout a year.
It's where I would, so I got acut in my mouth.
And like when you cut the cornerof your mouth with a potato
(14:56):
chip.
The cut never really healed,well cause I would continuously
open my mouth overly wide, and Iwas so when I was researching
these ticks.
It seemed like the process andthe behavior of doing the tick
releases a lot of energy fromyour body and if you don't do it
(15:17):
then you feel like you'reliterally going to explode like
restless leg syndrome.
Amy Therriault (15:22):
Yes.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (15:23):
So I was.
So what are the potentialcauses and triggers for these?
Is it something that just somepeople have and they don't?
Or is it something with age?
Amy Therriault (15:32):
maybe In full disclosure of myself, I have
been diagnosed with functionalneurological disorder.
In 2018, I had been a nurse for12 years was at the top of my
game professionally was I wasworking for the state.
(15:54):
Great, secure job, goodbenefits, 401, yay, we're there
and I started noticing that Iwas.
My hair was thinning and, as anurse, I go down my own list of
what do I need to pay.
So we go through all theproducts and we look at our
(16:15):
shampoos and stuff like that,and then I thought, okay, let me
go to my doctor and make suremy thyroid isn't out of whack,
because that, too, can't causeit.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (16:26):
Okay, so you had to start your own
journey of the process ofelimination.
Amy Therriault (16:31):
Right, yeah, and it was just about a one year
long stroke over the course oftime.
So I came out of nursingbecause it was different.
Well, the brain fog was soprofound it was like my body was
(16:54):
so focused on, from the neckdown, trying to coordinate
muscle movement and justnavigating life that six
functions that I had done foryears in my profession became
increasingly difficult and Istarted just like losing blocks
of time.
And so I just happened to knowa psychiatrist through family
(17:25):
connections and I had.
I got home one afternoon andleft my car running overnight in
the driveway and the next day Iwent in and I said I don't know
what's wrong with me, but I'mlosing my mind.
(17:46):
And from the period of my life Iwas in a state of depression,
from the period of time that Ihad spoken to this person last
to the time I showed up in theiroffice, my speech had become
very choppy, very slurred Infact.
(18:07):
I remember he looked at me andhe said when did you begin
stuttering?
And I was like, what are youtalking about?
But and so it.
I went through the gamut MRIsthey looked for multiple
sclerosis, they looked forLyme's disease, they looked for
(18:30):
all these different things,ended up losing all of my hair
and just was unable to navigate,walking up and down stairs,
bilateral carpal tunnel surgeryfor nerve pain in my hands, all
(18:50):
trying to get to what it wasalmost like an inflammatory
storm in my body and I couldn'tpinpoint where.
Why is this happening?
And when conversion was firstmentioned to me, I was honestly,
I was like I was honestly, Iwas appalled because that's
(19:14):
something that other people dealwith.
Right, I'm a healthcareprovider, I know what stress is,
I know what all the other stuffis and I don't have it.
So rule that out, find outwhat's medically wrong, and went
in and they did more lumbarpunctures and functional PET
(19:39):
scans and all kinds of stuff andit was like you're getting
older but you don't haveAlzheimer's and we don't know.
Maybe we need to see acounselor and I just so that led
me to pursue my master's degreein mental health counseling.
(20:01):
What better way to pull yourselfout of the place of despair
than educating yourself?
I've got to learn how to dealwith this.
I'm gonna have to work.
What can I do that I cancontrol some of these things
(20:25):
that seem so big, that seem tobe stumping me?
So Vanderkalk's book was veryinstrumental in not only my
healing but just the greaterunderstanding of the human body,
(20:47):
the brain, and how they are sointertwined with trauma, and
just the everyday stresses oflife.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (20:59):
Right, and as you were talking not to
bring up a completely randomconnection story, but it really
did.
I was thinking about my journeywith dismissing, there being
anything wrong with mentalstress or anything like that
Cause, like you mentioned, whenyou went through your journey,
your reaction was I'm a nurse.
(21:19):
No, like, I know stress.
I know what that looks like.
It can't be that, and I think Ihave suffered from the same
thing in my past.
Of no, I am a strong person.
I can control my reaction tothings.
I am in charge of my mind.
And I think one of the biggestturning points for me actually
(21:41):
was when I was in the hospitalin labor with my first child, my
son, and I was not in pain.
I physically was feeling nopain.
And my OBGYN came into the roomand she said your body is not
having this baby because of yourpain.
(22:02):
And I was like I'm not feelingpain, there's some mistakes you
don't understand and she's no,your body has shut down from
life and is not having this baby.
And it was interesting cause mybrain wasn't processing pain.
I was feeling no discomfort,but my body was in such pain
(22:22):
that it wasn't doing what it wassupposed to do.
That's when, I think, I reallyfirst took it serious that your
brain and body aren't alwaysconnected.
They can act independent ofeach other and wires do get
crossed.
So if that can be true, thenwhy can't it be true that this
thing that you're stressed can'tnegatively impact you and you
(22:46):
maybe not be aware of it?
Amy Therriault (22:48):
Absolutely, and that's a lot of what, as I
traced my steps back, whatthrough the course of my life,
where I went to school, they dida wonderful job of and I would
imagine that most graduatecounseling programs are similar
(23:09):
to this but not only are youlearning how to help others, but
you're also learning a lotabout yourself, and so I started
having to do research invarious types of trauma and
stuff like that, and when Ireally thought about it, being
(23:33):
even just being a nurse initself set my physical body up
to.
It was like cartwashed towhatever, and I had break.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (23:54):
Yes, no, and that's such a great point
because you're right.
I remember in my graduateprogram that it was talked about
how, if you're gonna helpothers, you need to get to know
yourself.
But really I am completelyobsessed with Renee Brown, love
that woman and I remember in oneof her speeches she was talking
(24:14):
about her experience as aresearcher and how, before she
could get into like otherpeople's mess and sort through
it, she needed to get to knowher own mess.
Amy Therriault (24:26):
Oh yeah.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (24:27):
That just made so much sense to me and I
feel like it's one of thehardest things that some
individuals live their wholelife and they never really get
to know themselves.
And that's why I just love andappreciate every single mental
health client I ever meet oranybody that ever comes into my
therapy group, because theyshowed up and they took that
(24:50):
scary first step of oh God, Idon't know what I'm gonna find
out about me.
Yes, it's scary, but I showedup and I'm gonna do it, because
you don't know how you're gonnahandle those things and really
being honest with yourself is ahard thing to do.
Amy Therriault (25:07):
It really is, and especially in the case of
functional neurologicaldisorders, you have to be
willing to accept yeah, I mightbe in the grocery store line and
actually dissociate, and that'snot, that is okay.
(25:27):
So what's leading up to that?
There's a lot of noise in thestore.
You hear all the shopping carts, the wheels going, the kids
screaming, four aisles away theloudspeakers, everybody's
talking, and it's sensoryoverload, absolutely.
And then for a momenteverything's clear.
(25:51):
And then, when you leave, you'relike what was I thinking back
there?
And then you realize I just wasstanding up by I don't know,
just because I was holding theshopping cart.
I wasn't present in my body,though.
And so when we look at thatfrom a functional neurological
(26:13):
standpoint, that is, the humanbody and brain actually
providing like self preservation, now that too can become a
problem, and that's where yougotta really be careful, because
dissociation is one thing ifyou're not thinking about it and
(26:40):
you're like, okay, I justwhatever.
But if someone is so profoundlyaffected by an FND, then their
dissociation, the brains oh wait, I get to rest if I do this and
then that in itself becomes apsychological problem instead of
(27:07):
just the rescue mode, so tospeak.
That reminds me of something Iheard one time.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (27:12):
I can't remember where I can't remember
if it was like a leadershipsummit or a community meeting.
I don't remember if it was likea leadership summit or where it
was, but the person that wasspeaking was talking about
burnout they were talking aboutbeing overstimulated and they
basically I think the wholetenant of the conversation was
(27:33):
multitasking can be a really badthing, oh, my.
They had us all think abouttimes when we have been driving
on our way home from work and itfelt like we got home too fast.
And we didn't.
You don't even remember it.
Yes, you don't remember whenyou turned, you don't remember
(27:54):
taking that exit, you don'tremember that lane change, you
don't remember putting on yourblinker and then all of a sudden
, you're home and is that kindof what we're talking about here
?
Things that can happen likethat?
Amy Therriault (28:06):
Absolutely.
And now that kind ofdissociation is, that is, a
muscle memory type of thing,where you know your way.
It's a past.
You've gone down multiple timesand just by muscle memory you
(28:27):
get there.
However, where your thoughtsare during that time is really
interesting to go back and thinkabout.
Oftentimes we can't evenremember what we were thinking
about as we were driving, thatwe dissociated from as we're
pulling out of the parking lot,and those kind of events happen
(28:54):
regularly, especially if it'srepetitive.
All the time you're doing thesame thing.
You can leave and come backbecause if somebody in front of
you as you pulled out, ifsomebody in front of you slams
on brakes, that moment when yousee those brake lights and all
(29:18):
those thousands of neuronsmillions of them in your backs,
there behind your retina and allthat stuff they begin
processing the fact that thebrake lights are in front of you
and we step on the brake.
That's that moment where youcome back into yourself and
(29:39):
you're like, okay, I need tostay present in my car, not
think about who's gonna babysitFriday night.
Right, snap out of that moment,right, right.
And that's something that mosteveryone can relate to in some
way or another cooking dinner,washing laundry we all dream of
(30:03):
other things and just somehowget these menial tasks done.
If you're pulling away fromyourself, though, in moments
where it's any sort of stressfultime, if somebody has
difficulty being in hospitals, alot of people have a fear of
(30:25):
hospitals and stuff, and whenthey go into them, they just
blank out Right, that's whatever.
And this is where it all startscircling around.
Whatever it was that thatperson attached to being in a
hospital, it could have beenfive minutes ago, it could have
(30:48):
been 30 years ago, but it'scausing you not to be present.
What is that?
And then that's wherecounseling.
We go back and we look at okay,so why is it when you're
walking through the doors atWalmart?
Why is it?
(31:09):
Do you?
Does your heart start racing,do you?
When, then asking people toreally tune into that, when they
feel themselves beginning todissociate because of anxiety or
because of just hearing a song?
(31:30):
Maybe that brought back amemory and it's just too much.
So somehow you move on tosomething else.
You've got to get to the rootof that and discover where did I
attach something painful towhat is happening in my present?
(31:52):
Because I'm not in the pastanymore.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (31:56):
Right, so it sounds like cognitive
behavioral therapy is reallythat, like first go to for
treatment.
Amy Therriault (32:01):
And it is.
Some of it is.
It's Unfortunately there hasn'tbeen an immense amount of
studies done on what therapeuticmodality works best.
Cbt is incorporated a whole lot, because what do we have
(32:29):
attached to all of thesenegative events or whatever?
We like to carry aroundnegative cognitions as well, and
so when I take an experiencethat I may have had with a
family member and I attach allthis pain to it, then in the
(32:52):
future, if I encounter somethinglike that, my past tells me I'm
not good enough, I'm not goingto be successful at that,
because that's a negativecognition you've carried, maybe
since childhood, and so, okay,we got to work out that negative
cognition too.
(33:12):
So you're using a lot of CBTand a lot of psychoeducation.
I have my clients, actually, ifthey are able to pick up Vander
Colt's book and there are acouple of great workbooks out
(33:32):
there and I actually read thebook with them and we go from
one chapter to the next, and sothey're getting the anatomy
lesson and they're getting allthis knowledge with someone that
is able to say, okay, this iswhat that word means, because
(33:54):
it's a very dense material, butbeing able to go through that
and it is unbelievable, theclients that have been able to
extrapolate from their childsome of where a lot of this
comes from, because they nowunderstand how it got put in
(34:18):
there anyway, along with lookingat developmentally.
For instance, your daughter iseight years old, nine years old,
and there may have been justsomething inocuous happened and
at that moment perhaps sheblinked her eyes really hard and
(34:40):
so and that kind of reset,whatever that moment was for her
, and then okay, so two weekslater she's still blinking her
eyes really hard whenever she'sgot to maybe critically think or
whatever the activity is.
Finding a way to explain thebrain, obviously to a pediatric
(35:10):
aged client is a littledifferent, but it's still the
same system.
We can draw pictures to helplink the dots until,
content-wise, someone's older tounderstand them.
But it's still being able tounderstand how the brain works.
(35:36):
It enables and empowers myclients.
That's the word I was lookingfor empowers.
So as they read through thisbook, I may ask the question how
, in what ways do you relate towhatever person you may be
talking to, or a client when wemeet in a session?
(36:00):
Perhaps has been journaling andthe pieces start clicking in
what their body is feeling.
They're able to use thatmindfulness of why am I
clenching my jaw so tight?
Breathing Isn't a huge thing.
(36:23):
Why am I holding my breath?
That's the first thing I alwayswhen I do my checks.
If I'm starting to feelstressed, the first thing I do
is ask myself are you breathing?
Breathe because your brain'snot going to work without oxygen
, so quit holding your breath.
Use simple strategies.
(36:46):
When a person knows that takingthat breath will actually make
a difference and the sciencebehind it, then it means a
little bit more than just aclinician going.
We'll just take some deepbreaths.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (37:04):
No, that makes a lot of sense, and not to
throw a curveball at you, but Iknow so you mentioned like CBT
can be helpful.
Do you know of any instanceswhere EMDR has been used, if
this disorder is related to anypast trauma or anything?
Amy Therriault (37:22):
Absolutely.
It is the eclectic therapist'skind of ball of wax, so to speak
, because there's not.
Every person is different.
Every person's journey to thispoint is different.
They may not be beneficial.
(37:43):
It may be that they are looking, you may have to incorporate or
help them getting in touch withtranscranial magnetic
stimulation.
But the T has only shown to bebeneficial in those with the
(38:04):
motor types of functionalneurological disorders.
T has become a big thing nowwith working with past stresses
or working with major depressivedisorder, and it too is right
(38:25):
there, linking together our bodyand mind, in that it allows the
person to actually be to facethe fear in enough of a euphoric
state that they're not fearfulof it and they're able to begin
(38:47):
processing it.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (38:49):
Can you tell us what TMS is for any
listeners who maybe have neverheard that before?
Amy Therriault (38:56):
Magnetic stimulation is the use of
magnets to stimulate areas ofthe brain that may not, that may
be under functioning and quietdown some of the others.
So if you think for all of uswho have seen one flu over the
(39:21):
coopus ness electro convulsivestherapy we think of that being
so barbaric.
But the reset on the brain isactually really helpful in
getting people out of adangerous state.
(39:44):
The trans-magnetic stimulationit's like going into the CAT
scan machine and I think that'sright.
The CAT scan machine andthey're running these magnets
(40:09):
uses that magnetic field tostimulate the brain into
improving the electricalimpulses running through the
brain.
So it's really bizarre.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (40:30):
I think yeah, and it makes a lot of
sense because our body has a lotof electricity in it.
We know that we get a lot ofenergy which is created by
electricity built up anytimewe're reactive because we're
angry or we're stressed orletting that out.
So it sounds to me like drawingthe correlation of this
(40:51):
disorder when thosecommunications get crosswired
and things with your body andyour brain and how you're
feeling and how you'reoverwhelmed aren't processing
correctly.
It sounds like a tool that youwould use to reset that process
Exactly.
Amy Therriault (41:08):
And that's really where collaborating with
other healthcare professionalsbecomes really critical, my
being like a clinical mentalhealth counselor.
I don't necessarily case managein the traditional sense.
(41:29):
I'm more the social worker role, so to speak.
But you find yourself when youget really embroiled into
functional neurologicaldisorders.
There's no possible way that I,singularly, can diagnose
(41:53):
functional neurologicaldisorders without the
collaboration of other treatmentand physicians that look at
other things.
There are certain tests thathave to be done, and so it opens
up the door for counselors toperhaps become a little closer
(42:22):
to case managers at the sametime.
Obviously, if people cliniciansand comfortable addressing these
kinds of things, then that's.
I'm obviously looking at thiswith two lenses, one being the
(42:42):
nursing and the other being thehealthcare system that I've
accessed in my previousprofession that work for me now.
So I ask the questions aboutmedications and stuff like that,
because I've got thepharmacological background and
(43:08):
can be in touch withpsychiatrists, physical
therapists and stuff to be ableto weigh out whether treatments
are effective or not, becausethey may see the client once
every three months.
I may have to see them twice aweek to a certain level of, just
(43:35):
for the client to be able tosee some relief and most of that
at the beginning is just beingpresent.
That's it.
That's all you're doing.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (43:48):
Right, and that validation piece it sounds
.
I believe you.
Like you said, you're not alonein thinking this is a problem
that you're experiencing.
I believe you.
Amy Therriault (43:58):
Yes, absolutely.
And now that newer research iscoming out daily just about on
this and the additional, theeasiest or one of the ways that
I've I have my clients reallytune into themselves is going
(44:26):
through your body sense, goingthrough your five senses.
What are you seeing?
What are you hearing Smelling?
Can you taste anything?
How does your do you feel thatyour heart's racing?
Or like when we look at someoneand we say, are you okay?
And they're like why, what do Ilook like?
(44:47):
And you're like, look, you looka little nervous.
Right now I'm not, but thenwhen you get back, when you get
him in your relaxed, you're like, wow, my shoulders are killing
me.
I must have been holding themup to my ears the whole day.
Right, that's just your bodycompensating in some way in a
(45:12):
more critical way.
Our fight or flight, that kindof that triggered moment, where
is there?
Am I going to be attacked?
Am I at risk for something?
The brain doesn't differentiatebetween the bully and the polar
(45:33):
bear, for instance.
We have reason to fear both, butthe chances of me running into
a polar bear in North Carolinaare slim than none, and so I
know it can be a polar bear butit may be the bully that's
causing that surge of adrenalineand cortisol and it just dumps
(45:58):
out all throughout your body andit leaves especially in
healthcare providers leaves yourunning in a perpetual state of
fight or flight.
So if you can imagine, like atone point in time when I was
(46:19):
going through my masters and I'mthinking about all the years I
spent in nursing and there wassomewhat of a nursing shortage,
not like during COVID, but therehave been times where, my
goodness, I stayed working inthe emergency room.
(46:41):
I stayed in fight or flight for12 solid hours because we were
just that busy and everything'scritical.
So you're always running andyou're multitasking, which we
know now really isn't the bestthing for your body.
But what do all these hormonesdo?
(47:01):
As they're forcing through ourbloodstream, they're depleting,
they're interrupting your normalbalance in your own body, and
then we have GI upset, we havepeople now that you're going to
(47:22):
get a cold or you're not goingto sleep good or your lists of
just all these random symptoms,and it's almost.
I predict this alone will createits own issues in healthcare,
(47:44):
because so many of ourhealthcare providers are so
burned out and they are just sotired that any kind of trauma
they've experienced prior tohaving to run do their jobs.
(48:05):
Law enforcement, caredepartments, all these they're
constantly in a state of goodand that can destroy parts of
your body that you aren't evenaware of.
And I joke with a colleague ifI ever decide to get my PhD, my
(48:33):
area of interest with researchis in first responders.
How many of those are actuallyhaving to leave the workforce on
short term disability or justleave it all together because of
the stress alone causing orbeing linked to other parts of
(49:00):
their bodies just breaking down,and that's going to create a
problem.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (49:06):
Oh, absolutely.
And as you were talking, I wasthinking of a personal
experience and I've never been afirst responder, but I was
thinking about so.
I was bullied really bad inhigh school, and so I remember
going to see agastroenterologist one time when
(49:27):
I was a young adult and I wasvery caught off guard because
the gastroenterologist said oh,we typically see this in people
who have a past history oftrauma or are currently being
abused.
Do you feel safe at home?
And I was just like that's themost ridiculous thing I've ever
heard.
I didn't say that out loud,obviously, but I saw it because
(49:47):
I was like no, I've never beenabused, like I'm not being heard
at home, like why would theythink that this could be a thing
?
And it wasn't until I became amental health provider that I
really started to think abouthow that affects me now.
So I don't do well withconflict.
The fear of the potential forconflict or being mistreated
(50:09):
scares me so much that now,before I leave the house to
travel, or I leave the house fora really important reason, I
get sick at my stomach and Ifeel well ahead of leaving the
house because I've alreadyworked myself up into thinking
what kind of conflict is goingto come my way, like how are
people going to perceive me andtreat me?
And I literally have beenworking on that for years and
(50:33):
sometimes you never come backfrom it, like with
gastrointestinal issues, likeonce it's there, it can be a
lifelong thing.
Once the trauma's gone, onceyou've worked through things,
you still may never recover fromthat.
Amy Therriault (50:46):
Oh yeah, you may always have motility problems
or people who talk about havingchronic constipation or chronic
diarrhea.
Or I can't eat this becauseit'll just work my nerves and
I'll end up in the bathroom forthe rest of the day.
And so what you find yourselfdoing is you're compromising
(51:09):
every other aspect of your lifeto avoid triggers, that
irritable bowel.
Now you're not living lifeanymore, right?
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (51:20):
Taking the lights, going to the airport,
driving the long car rides forvacation, like the things that
you have to think about andworry about because something
has happened either in your lifeor your career that you chose.
Like you mentioned firstresponders and they're always on
go, always in the realm oftrauma and now that's impacting
(51:41):
so many other facets of yourlife.
And that leads me to the nextquestion On the spot question.
So we recently talked in aprevious podcast about clients
in crisis, so clients actuallyexperiencing a mental health
crisis.
Would you say that clients withthis disorder are likely to
(52:03):
experience a crisis situationwhere they're mentally not safe
or physically unsafe becausethey've been going through these
physical and mental challenges?
Amy Therriault (52:15):
Right.
So and I would say, yes,anything is possible, but most,
and that's typically why, if I'mseeing somebody that has been
diagnosed with a functionalneurological disorder, I
typically see them at leasttwice a week.
(52:36):
And the reason I do that andinsurance may or may not like
that but the reason I do isbecause, having been in that
position as a patient andknowing that the doctor's gonna
see you for 15 minutes, bill youfor 20 and not give you any
(52:58):
answers, these specific, thispopulation is tired.
They just wanna be heard.
And can you please just standhere with me at the edge of the
cliff and we can back downtogether, because I can't drive
(53:23):
anymore, because I have theseevents or episodes and they're
not seizures, it's not epilepsybut I can't drive.
If you tell that to a 21 yearold, that's really gonna hamper
their lifestyle.
In fact, it's gonna disrupt allsocial interaction.
And so now you've got somebodystill developing their
(53:46):
pre-pharmal cortex being toldyou're not gonna be able to do
this and they're missing out ona big block of social
interaction, training, gettingthe mental calluses that you
need for when you're 30.
They're missing that becausethey're spending all of their
(54:07):
time trying to figure out what'swrong with them.
It is so.
So when someone does call andsay this particular office
referred me over to you for I'vebeen having these symptoms and
they just don't care.
And I do my intake with themand we go through all of this,
(54:31):
just all of this stuff they'vebeen told.
Sometimes I do request themedical documentation from their
neurologist or primary carephysician so that way I can have
a better understanding of howit presented to them.
(54:51):
But it's not always a functionalneurological disorder.
That's part of what we have todo is differentiate between a
somatic disorder or is it aconversion, and a lot of what I
look at with that is how is itaffecting their activities of
(55:14):
daily living?
Is this preventing them frombeing the provider they wanna be
?
And if they call me in crisis,then and heck, yes, I'm not
gonna be the one that's justgonna say don't know what.
It is rather okay.
So this is how I do mycounseling for this disorder and
(55:40):
I explain that to the client.
And, okay, are you willing toset the time aside?
That's needed so that you canheal, because this isn't in
every other week visit.
This isn't basic anxiety.
It's somebody who can't,they're paralyzed in their lives
(56:05):
and that in and of itself is acrisis, maybe not to the point
of suicidal ideation, but to abreadwinner that can't drive to
work and is missing hundreds ofdollars a day, that's a crisis
in itself.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (56:24):
Absolutely that, just oh yes, even
thinking through someone goingthrough that you can't provide
for your family anymore and thestress that could come from that
.
What advice would you give toindividuals who suspect that
they may have conversiondisorder but they have not yet
(56:45):
reached out for help?
Amy Therriault (56:47):
I would first say biggest piece of advice is
speak up, advocate for yourself,because right now the state of
healthcare is just in shambles.
It is unbelievable how long ittakes to get in with a mental
health clinician and then to tryand find someone that is, like,
(57:10):
specialized in specific thingsis even more difficult.
So advocate for yourself,scream it out loud to your
doctor.
I need you to look at me, andif you don't find anything great
, that's okay.
(57:31):
But at least I know that it'snot a brain tumor.
That's a beautiful thing.
But now what do I do with myspeech?
That's slurring.
And what do I do with my brainfog?
How do I deal with that?
And then that's where I wouldcome in and say, okay, I'm gonna
(57:52):
, we're gonna work on this acouple of days a week to start,
and then slowly you're.
Maybe, if they're showingpositive outcomes and great
strides, then we can back downto once a week.
(58:13):
But this is over an enormousamount of time, like a year.
The client that I have now I'veseen actually just almost a
year, and they have madeenormous strides in their
ability to even leave the houseand being able to utilize tools
(58:37):
from CBT, the mindfulnesstechniques, just using them all.
And then next would be solidifyyour support.
If a specific person is gonna beyour go-to for help in moments
(59:00):
that you're feeling really downabout the things that you are
not in control of, thatparticular person being a part
of the treatment, so that thedoor is open for me to
(59:21):
communicate, maybe with thedriver of this client or the
aunt who's taking care of themright now, because they can't be
left alone.
And don't be afraid to ask forhelp, especially to first
responders, to people who workin healthcare, to even each
(59:47):
other.
As mental health clinicians wehear a lot, and if you think
that you're not gonna beaffected in some way vicariously
in learning of other people'straumas, I would I don't know, I
(01:00:10):
would just about guarantee thatat some point in time of your
life, all of that, all of it Icry on a weekly basis and it is
I have come to embrace that notas something that I'm sad about,
but rather that is my physicalbody releasing all of the pain
(01:00:37):
and the disappointment and thefeelings of betrayal and disgust
and panic that my clients feelthat they bring in to therapy.
It's gotta go somewhere and ifyou're empathic in any kind of
way, then, even throughtechnology, it passes right
(01:01:02):
through the screens and I findmyself maybe at the end of a
week and I'm just so tired andsaddened for the people that are
having to go through the thingsthey are that I make sure I
spend time and just cry and beokay with that.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (01:01:25):
It's okay to let that emotion out and you
walk away a lot healthierAbsolutely so it sounds like
advocating for yourself, findinga really reliable support
person, being okay with crying,being okay with letting out what
(01:01:48):
you're feeling Because it'sholding it all in.
Amy Therriault (01:01:52):
That's what's causing all the upset to begin
with.
The first time a client looksat you and goes I'll just put it
all back together, it'll beokay, I'm all right, I'm fine.
But I'm like no, you're not.
Here's a box of tissues.
Do we have to play stillmagnolias or something for you
(01:02:14):
to feel comfortable with yourfeelings?
Is that the only no dad didthis?
Oh, okay, now we're gonna dig alittle in further and find out
where the tears are from andwhen we can accept ourselves, as
I think there's a healthybalance between what is
(01:02:35):
considered emotional regulationand allowing yourself to feel it
.
I could not agree more withthat statement.
That is not a powerfulstatement.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (01:02:46):
On that note, this was so educational
and I know a lot of listenersout there got some really great
information from this, whetherthey're going to be able to do
it or not, and I think that's agreat information from this,
whether they're going throughsomething like this or they have
a loved one or friend goingthrough this.
Thank you so much again, amy,for joining us today and talking
(01:03:11):
through this disorder with us.
Certainly, is there anythingyou'd like to say, any closing
words Let our listeners know,like where they can find you, or
anything else you wanna share.
Amy Therriault (01:03:22):
I am located in North Carolina.
I'm from the College ofPsychology to day profile that
they can find me on and infinding support.
There are some organizationsFND Hope International or FND
(01:03:43):
Hope USA, the FunctionalNeurological Disorder Society.
Those are great places thatpeople can link up and find
support groups as well asstaying on top of the absolute
latest research.
And being able to print thatout and put it in your doctor's
(01:04:05):
hand and say and go back toschool is a very empowering
thing for someone who doesn'tfeel like they've got it
together.
Dr. Elizabeth Barlow (01:04:15):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for sharingthat.
I will make sure that both yourpsychology today links and
those helpful resources that youshared can get linked in the
description for this podcast.
You are very welcome.
Thanks all of our listeners forjoining us on this episode of
the Kindermind podcast, where wediscuss exploring conversion
(01:04:36):
disorder, and stay tuned for ournext episode that will be
dropping in one week.
The Kindermind podcast isproduced by Dr Elizabeth Barlow,
edited by Marco Antonio, withmusic by Pax Minerva.
Thank you,
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