September 15, 2023 • 27 mins
Are you ready for a thought-provoking journey into the world of polyamory? Dr. Miki Anderson, a licensed clinical mental health counselor, discusses the tricky landscape of multiple relationships. As we discuss the benefits and complexities of polyamory, you'll find that it's not all about sex, but also about emotional fulfillment, community, and effective communication. Dr. Miki's insights will open your eyes to how polyamorous relationships fundamentally differ from monogamy, and the impact they have on mental and emotional well-being.
As we continue our explorations, we dive into the deep end of emotional boundaries in polyamorous relationships. You'll learn from Dr. Miki's first-hand experiences in a triad relationship, as she shares invaluable tips to avoid emotional burnout and communicate boundaries with respect. But there's more. We tackle the challenge of external judgment and misconceptions surrounding ethical non-monogamy. You'll also discover the fascinating legal strides made in Massachusetts where multiple partner unions are now recognized. If you're curious about alternative relationship styles or seeking to broaden your understanding of polyamory, this conversation could be a game-changer. Join us on this enlightening journey.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the kinder mind podcast, where we're
devoted to opening upconversations and destigmatizing
mental health.
We'll bring you interviews withpractitioners in the field of
mental health, researchersuncovering new knowledge and
best practices for treatingmental health disorders, and
individuals sharing their mentalhealth journey.
Today, we're talking with DrMickey Anderson, a licensed
(00:28):
clinical mental health counselorin North Carolina, south
Carolina and Florida.
We're exploring polyamorynavigating relationships,
boundaries and love.
Polyamory is a relationshiporientation and philosophy that
involves having multipleconsensual and ethical, romantic
or sexual relationshipssimultaneously.
Hi, dr Mickey, thank you somuch for being our first ever
(00:57):
guest on the kinder mind podcast, where we are talking about
polyamory.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Absolutely so I would say.
Personally, I didn't knowanything about polyamory or what
it even was, until a couple ofyears ago when a client was
talking to me and they weretalking about their
relationships and they just kindof dropped this word that I was
not familiar with and I waslike, oh, I'm going to need to
Google this after our session tofigure out what they are
(01:28):
talking about.
And I was just so amazed atkind of the premise behind
polyamory relationships,learning that it's not a new
thing, it's not a modern thing.
That just kind of happened.
It's actually historical.
Many different cultures haveengaged in polyamory throughout
time.
So I'm so excited to be meetingwith you today to discuss it
(01:51):
and kind of even learn moreabout it and even educate the
world a little bit more aboutpolyamory.
So I'd love it if you couldjust tell us a little bit about
what polyamory is and how itdiffers from traditional
monogamous relationships.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Well, I guess the easiest way to put it is that
it's when someone's involved inone or more romantic or sexual
relationships, and so a lot ofpeople will come in as like a
married couple and would maybewant to find a third partner.
(02:27):
I put it like that because somepeople say like asking for,
like looking for a third, andthere are different viewpoints
on that.
But you can just be like solopoly, you can be married, you
can have relationship anarchy.
But I guess the easiest way toexplain it is just one or more
romantic partners.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
So then you've got more than one partner in the
relationship.
Typically from what we'velearned in like mental health
and you know working withcouples is even having two
people in a relationship can bea challenge and can be really
frustrating at times.
So, given your knowledge onpolyamory, how would you say
(03:08):
that it impacts individuals'mental and emotional well-being?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I mean, it can help, it can hurt.
It's just like with anyrelationship, like there are
boundaries that need to be setin place.
You need to be able to discussyour needs and sometimes
personalities clash, people justdon't get along and other times
, you know, it's amazing.
Just yeah, just like withmonogamous relationships.
(03:36):
It's about communication andtrust, honesty.
There's a lot of jealousy andsecurity that some people might
think doesn't happen inpolyamory.
But jealousy is a valid humanemotion and you know, honestly,
as you as one dives intopolyamory, you know there is a
(03:59):
lot of insecurity that comeswith that for most, for a lot of
people, just because they'rehaving to kind of unlearn a lot
of monogamous rules, for lack ofa better word.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Makes sense that there is, you know, challenges
for polyamory, just like there'schallenges for monogamy, and I
think jealousy is really one ofthose shared challenges.
But tell me about the benefitsof a polyamorous relationship.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
There's a sense of community for a lot of people
and there's this term calledkitchen table polyamory, where
partners will.
It could be partners orpartners, partners are all so
that it could like literally besitting around the kitchen table
just having a conversation.
A lot of people play boardgames.
(04:44):
You know like some people raisetheir kids together, so you get
that sense of community andsupport and there's also just
there's this viewpoint that youknow love is infinite and it's
just like when you have multiplefriends or when you have
multiple children, you know yourlove for those people doesn't
(05:05):
lessen.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Absolutely no.
I think that's a really goodpoint.
So in polyamorous relationships, how do individuals communicate
their emotional needseffectively?
What would be a way thatbecause to me it seems like
communicating your emotionalneeds to one person in a
monogamous relationship cansometimes be a barrier for a lot
(05:31):
of people and feeling thatsense of security and opening up
?
So now add another partner intoa relationship.
What, in your knowledge andwhat you've seen work, is the
best way for people to reallycommunicate their emotional
needs effectively?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
You're going to hear this a lot in the community but
communication and they'll justbrowbeat you with that I feel
like it's a lot of talk ofcommunicate but not a lot of how
to communicate.
There is more information outthere with the multi-amory
podcast, polysecure and morethan two.
So with communicating, it'simportant to even talk about the
(06:09):
small things before they buildup and become resentments.
So it's important to haveregular check-ins Sometimes some
people do it weekly, somepeople do it monthly and I think
even having regular date nightsthis is kind of an aside, but
as well as date nights foryourself, because just with one
(06:31):
relationship it can be difficultto have that time, that
individual time, but obviouslyit's harder the more people you
put into the equation.
So just making sure you havequality time for everyone
involved, including yourself.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Absolutely.
That's such a good point.
I think self-care and, like yousaid, dating yourself is so
important for even thatcontinued awareness of identity
and your self-confidence, andthat's definitely one of the
things that I share with myclients when they're like you
know, my self-esteem, like Idon't know I'm just, I have
social anxiety, I don't reallyknow who I am, and like part of
(07:06):
that process that can be findingyourself is learning to get
comfortable with you, takingyourself to a movie and
sometimes that can soundexcruciatingly painful to go see
a movie by yourself or to sitat a table and have lunch by
yourself but through doing thosethings you can really get
comfortable with who you are.
And if you're comfortable withyou, as you well know, then you
(07:28):
can absolutely be comfortable ina healthy relationship with
another person, because you'renot going to have those you know
behaviors of low self-esteemand the clinginess and losing
your identity with your partneror partners.
I think that's a really greatcall out to date yourself as
well.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, and in addition to you know, doing a lot of
reading and research on this,like I have, you know, personal
experience, so I like to call itfieldwork experience, because
I'm a nerd and I have, you know,battled in the past with
finding my identity and tryingnot to lose sight of it, and it
was difficult.
In past relationships Iremember one time I wanted to, I
(08:08):
wanted to go to lunch with oneof my partners and at the last
minute they had to cancel.
I don't remember why, but it'snot relevant and so I was just
at lunch by myself and it wasreally uncomfortable at first,
but it turns out nobody caresand it ended up being a
wonderful time.
I was at Mellow Mushroom, hadsome pizza, had a beer and just
(08:32):
treated myself and it was just,you know, like emotionally
nourishing for me to get out ofmy comfort zone and to take care
of myself.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
That's a really great point.
I can empathize with that a lotbecause I too, did like my own
emotional and likeself-awareness journey of
finding my identity.
And what does that look like?
Because for the longest time Iwas that person.
I was terrified to go anywhereby myself or do anything by
myself.
I always needed a person.
I really attributed mine tobeing an only child and just
(09:07):
like I need someone with me.
But I think that you know, likeyou said, is sitting in that
discomfort and then allowing itto go away and see what happens,
like that's the only way you'regoing to learn and grow is
through, you know, like thatdiscomfort.
And Brene Brown I love her somuch, like she's kind of like
(09:29):
the pioneer of discomfort and Itoo had kind of a similar
experience of because I think Iwould get in my own head a lot
of if I do this by myself.
Everyone's going to look at me,everybody's going to feel sorry
for me, everyone's going to belike, why is that poor girl at
lunch by herself?
But, like you said, nobodycares, like nobody's noticing,
(09:50):
like this is a thing that humansthat are well adjusted can do.
They can do things bythemselves.
So I think once I overcame thatfear of what other people are
going to think and say that'swhen I was really able to do
that for myself.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, and then you're fulfilling some of your own
needs and so then you're notreally projecting them on to
other people and so, like yousaid, that takes away that
cleanliness, but also it like itshows you what you need in your
life, what you can do foryourself and what I guess it
kind of holds yourselfaccountable and you're able to
(10:26):
decipher, like what needs needto be met on your own versus
with other relationships, likewhat needs can be met there, and
then you can communicatehealthy boundaries that way,
because you'll know what theyare.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Yes, and I'm so glad you bring up boundaries because,
as we know, boundaries arecrucial in any relationship.
So tell me how polyamorousindividuals can establish and
maintain boundaries withmultiple partners.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Well, again, like first, you have to know what
your boundaries are.
And, starting out, like when Istarted out with polyamory, I
honestly didn't know what myboundaries were because I'd
never done it before.
And I think it's important totalk with potential partners or
current partners If you are acouple who are considering
opening up your relationship, sothat, whether you're dating
(11:19):
together, whether you're datingseparately, ideally it's good to
date separately.
Just because it's so hard, it'snot impossible.
I don't want to give thatimpression.
It's not impossible for acouple to find someone who is
attracted to both of them, butthat's also.
The issue is that you have tofind one person who's attracted
(11:40):
to two different people and so,just kind of knowing that that
may not be probable, it's notuncommon, but it's better to
date separately because on topof that, there's disentanglement
, where it's kind of a growingpain, where you're learning to
separate a little bit from yourpartner, like whether you're
(12:02):
married or just been dating fora while where you're not as
dependent or codependent on them.
You're there because you wantto be with them, not because you
need to be with them.
So, discussing with current orpotential partners what your
expectations are and somewhatflexible on that, because
(12:22):
sometimes it might not berealistic, but just kind of
communicating where you are andhaving a conversation about it
and just kind of going fromthere.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
In a monogamous relationship, finding the way to
communicate boundaries and yourneeds with one partner can be a
challenge.
And even that thing that we dowhen we notice that our partner
is sad or frustrated or upset,and finding ways to really
(12:51):
manage emotions in a way likeokay, I notice they're upset, I
need to talk to them about it.
I want to make sure I'm thereto support them as much as
possible.
Now you're taking that andyou're multiplying it by two.
What would you say would be agood best practice for avoiding
any type of emotional burnoutfrom trying to juggle that?
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Okay, so I will answer this question by using
some of my field work experience.
What didn't go?
Well?
I was in a triad and well, itwas kind of on and off with the
triad.
Sometimes I was with one of thepartners, sometimes I was with
both of the partners, and soit's a little.
But regardless, in eithersituation configuration, I guess
(13:37):
I would get the drama from bothpartners about each other, in
addition to any drama that I maybe involved in, you know.
But regardless, I was involvedin all of it and while I think,
on some level, of course, Ineeded to know about these
things, I gave 100% to both ofthem and nothing to myself.
(14:03):
And eventually there was thispoint where I said I need a
break, where I don't talk toeither of you for a few days,
and I didn't like doing that.
But it ended up being kind of amutual decision, so I didn't
feel too bad about that.
I mean, I felt, yeah, I feltappropriately bad, but I guess
(14:25):
what I would do in the future is, you know, taking more time for
myself and not answering everymessage as it came in, not just
saying I'm not available for Xamount of time, that I need to
meditate or go for a walk orwhatever I would be doing in
that time and then revisit itwhen I was in a clearer
(14:47):
headspace.
That's so yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
That's such a great point and I think a lot of
people can really connect withthat, because, whether it's your
friends or your children oryour partners or partner being
on all the time and immediatelyresponding like, oh, someone
needs something, let me meettheir needs, and oh, this person
does too, let me meet theirneeds it can get emotionally
(15:12):
exhausting and, like you said,if we're not setting those
boundaries in, the hardest partis then enforcing those
boundaries, like OK, I have aboundary.
Oh no, I have to tell peopleabout it and hopefully I don't
hurt their feelings, and that'sthe part that kind of feels icky
.
But then again there's thatdiscomfort piece.
There's a space for us to grow,and having that communication
(15:33):
about I'm feeling overstimulated, I'm feeling emotionally
overwhelmed it's no one's fault,but I need to recharge and I
need to take some time for me todo that, like meditate or go
for a walk or just have adisconnected couple of days
where maybe I'm laying on thecouch watching Netflix and just
letting my mind wander inimagination land.
No, I think that's a reallygreat point about if you start
(15:57):
to notice that you are on callall the time for no matter who
it is, but especially in arelationship where you have
other partners that you'retrying to stay connected to
taking that break, givingyourself that time to recharge.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah, and something you said about communicating
boundaries and being concernedabout hurting the other person's
feelings, like that's such anormal, valid feeling, I think.
But what I tend to say to myclients is, so long as you're
respectful and the way youcommunicate it, you can't really
(16:33):
control how they respond and Iknow that's a hard truth because
I struggle with it too, whichis how I can tell them it's a
hard truth.
But so long as you'rerespectful about it, that's
pretty much all you can do.
And, depending on the situation, it's normal to expect some
pushback, because if aboundary's never been placed
(16:54):
before, then people kind ofassume that everything's always
going to be status quo untilit's not, and people don't like
change.
And so I think so long asthey're not out and out assholes
, then it's okay for them tohave whatever reaction they're
having, and then they canrevisit later like hey, now that
(17:14):
I've thought about it a littlemore, that's actually a
reasonable boundary and I'msorry for acting that way.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
No, that makes tons of sense because, like you said,
people don't like change,people don't like feedback,
people don't like hearing thatsomething they are doing is not
perfect and pleasing everyone,because a lot of people are
pleasers and so as soon as theirego receives that feedback, it
is very easy to then getreactive.
Also, like one of the things Italk to my clients about,
(17:42):
because I get it like not beinga pushover is hard, setting
boundaries is it's crucially.
I, too, get those butterfliesand pits in my stomach when I
have to do it.
It doesn't feel good.
Another thing I talk to myclients about is the power of
prefacing.
So think about your fears thatyou have about communicating a
boundary to your mom or yourpartner or your child, and what
(18:07):
do you not want them to think?
What do you not want them tofeel?
Okay, there's no guarantee thatthey're not going to think or
feel that, but if you prefaceyour conversation by letting
them know that you hope thatthey don't think, that, you hope
that they don't feel that way,and then you tell them your
boundary, maybe it makes it blowa little bit easier.
(18:28):
Maybe it goes ahead and puts intheir mind like, well, she
truthfully doesn't want me tofeel like she is bullying me or
ganging up on me or criticizingme and intentionally hurting me.
She's just giving me feedback,again, not completely
bulletproof and foolproof, butsometimes prefacing can be
(18:50):
helpful, especially if you'vealready got a pretty good
resemblance of open and clearcommunication with that person.
It could be a nice safety netin place.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
And using those I statements saying like I feel
this way when X happens, andtherefore blah, blah, blah.
The boundary.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Absolutely Avoiding those attacking you, you this,
you that.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, because if they're going to be on the, if
you're going to use defensivelanguage, then you know that
ego's like that, ego's gonnalike the walls are gonna come up
.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Absolutely, absolutely, and so in another
way or another thing kind ofsegue into my next question
People don't like change.
People don't like things thatdon't feel normal, and so I know
we've mentioned before that.
You know non monogamousRelationships ethical non
monogamous relationships havebeen around throughout history,
(19:47):
but that's not a norm for oursociety.
It can sometimes lead to stigmaor misunderstanding about
polyamory and people who makethose choices to be in those
relationships getting mistreated, treated poorly and judged by
people they know and love andcomplete strangers.
How would you say thatIndividuals in polyamorous
(20:11):
relationships can cope withexternal judgment and continue
to prioritize their relationshipand mental health?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I would suggest going online to find local
communities and if you can'tfind local, then you know, maybe
a Facebook group unless I'mdating myself by saying that
there's probably a Reddit group.
So I'm still cool, honestly.
It's okay not to be out ifyou're like, if you're not
comfortable, or if you have, youknow family that you know you
(20:40):
fear judgment over, or maybe youhave a teaching job or a mill
or you're in the military orsomething you know you might
need to Keep it a secret andthat's okay.
But having that support,finding that community, however
you can, I think is important tomental health and knowing that
you're not alone in it.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
What are some common misconceptions about polyamory
that you've heard or witnessed,or experience that you'd like to
address?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
When I told my mom that I was Polly she she said,
yes, she'll be fine with mesaying this.
She said, oh yeah, back in myday we just called that a key
party and I'm like, well, notthat's, that's more swinging,
but but that's under theethically non monogamous
umbrella.
So you're in the ballpark.
I was one of the funnier thingsthat I heard, but mostly that
(21:32):
it's.
It's just a way to get awaywith.
Cheating is the big one I hear.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Tell me some advice that you could give to.
You know individuals whosefriends or family members just
don't understand and might evenbe on the fence about ending
their relationship with theirfriend or family member after
you know finding out theirpolyamorous like.
Give me some advice, maybe forthe individual that's going
(21:59):
through that.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
So what I would say to the person is to At some
point, if they're ready for it,talk to the friend and explain
what polyamory means you know tothem and maybe that would.
Maybe there would be someunderstanding there.
If that conversations notpossible for whatever reason,
then writing a letter to thatperson that they do not send and
(22:24):
it can be unfiltered.
You know, like if there's anyanger, resentment, whatever, it
can go in there and Then theycan read it over and burn it,
and if they still want tosomehow have a conversation,
then writing a second draft andmaybe sending an email, mailing
the letter or even a textmessage.
(22:45):
I guess, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I'm a big fan of the written communication and hard
situations where it seems likehaving verbal communication
would just blow up and be adisaster.
So I think that's a really greatidea.
Sounds like that could work fora family member as well.
Would you say yeah?
So, thinking about the stigma,that absolutely does exist.
(23:09):
I know there have been strideshappening in reducing that
stigma and making alternativerelationship styles to monogamy
more accepted.
It's definitely still in itsinfancy and kind of based on
where you're located in thecountry and community, but I
know in Massachusetts there'sactually two towns who have
(23:32):
legalized multiple partnerunions and marriages.
I want to say Somerville,massachusetts, and Medford,
massachusetts, where you canlegally be married to more than
one person and kind of celebrateyour polyamory that way.
So, thinking about that advance, is there anything else you
(23:55):
think that we could do as asociety working to reduce the
stigma around this?
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I think people who are comfortable being out keep
doing that.
Yeah, just talk to your friendsabout it, talk to your family
about it, if you are comfortableand safe and able to do so, of
course, but just making it likea normal conversation.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Absolutely.
I mean, I think we all dream ofthe day where we can just openly
be who we are and love who welove and live our lives in a
kind of open way, as long aswe're not harming other people.
But maybe that's a utopian dream, maybe it never happens, but I
think that's a really great callout to you know, if you are
comfortable being out and you'recomfortable living your life
(24:48):
like that, that is helping tochallenge the norms and the what
is accepted, because whenthere's, you know, 15 people
lined up who are going to passjudgment and hate you for your
choices, there's also going tobe other people, like that
community you mentioned, whosupport you and are there for
you and your choices.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me today, dr Mickey, to
(25:10):
talk about polyamory.
Before we go, I did want toshare that Dr Mickey is our new
state director for our mentalhealth counselor program out of
North Carolina.
So she is building her kindermind North Carolina mental
health counselor group right nowand I just wanted to check in
with you to see if you wanted toshare with the world what your
(25:33):
goals are for being the statedirector for North Carolina
kinder mind.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I mean I just want to increase access to mental
health care in the state and Imean I find it.
It can be so difficult nownowadays because so many
therapists are backed up.
They have three, four monthwait list and some people lack
transportation.
(26:00):
On top of that, you know, a lotof people work from home and
it's just on top of that.
It's just more convenient foreven the people who aren't
working from home, people who dohave transportation but maybe
they have an hour lunch break.
You know well most people thatthey have that or less, but you
know, but they don't have timeto drive to an office, go to
(26:21):
therapy and then drive back towork.
But they may have time to, youknow, eat during a therapy
session.
So just having moreavailability for mental health.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I love that.
That's so great, absolutely,and this mental health crisis
that we're in it's kind of beenhere even before COVID.
I think COVID just reallyshines light on the fact that we
need more therapy options, weneed more providers.
So it's so great and we're soexcited that you're joining us
to help us increase access tothe folks in North Carolina.
(26:54):
If there's anyone who has anyquestions about what we talked
about today with Polly Amary orquestions about Kindermine North
Carolina, would you becomfortable sharing your email
address with Kindermine?
Speaker 2 (27:09):
It's drmicky D-R-M-I-K-I at kinderminecom
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Well, thanks so much again, Dr Mickey.
It was a pleasure speaking withyou and we will be back with
episode two on the Kinderminepodcast in about one week.
The Kindermine podcast isproduced and edited by Dr
Elizabeth Barlow, with music byPax Minerva.
Welcome to the kinder mind podcast, where we're
devoted to opening upconversations and destigmatizing
mental health.
We'll bring you interviews withpractitioners in the field of
mental health, researchersuncovering new knowledge and
best practices for treatingmental health disorders, and
individuals sharing their mentalhealth journey.
Today, we're talking with DrMickey Anderson, a licensed
(00:28):
clinical mental health counselorin North Carolina, south
Carolina and Florida.
We're exploring polyamorynavigating relationships,
boundaries and love.
Polyamory is a relationshiporientation and philosophy that
involves having multipleconsensual and ethical, romantic
or sexual relationshipssimultaneously.
Hi, dr Mickey, thank you somuch for being our first ever
(00:57):
guest on the kinder mind podcast, where we are talking about
polyamory.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Absolutely so I would say.
Personally, I didn't knowanything about polyamory or what
it even was, until a couple ofyears ago when a client was
talking to me and they weretalking about their
relationships and they just kindof dropped this word that I was
not familiar with and I waslike, oh, I'm going to need to
Google this after our session tofigure out what they are
(01:28):
talking about.
And I was just so amazed atkind of the premise behind
polyamory relationships,learning that it's not a new
thing, it's not a modern thing.
That just kind of happened.
It's actually historical.
Many different cultures haveengaged in polyamory throughout
time.
So I'm so excited to be meetingwith you today to discuss it
(01:51):
and kind of even learn moreabout it and even educate the
world a little bit more aboutpolyamory.
So I'd love it if you couldjust tell us a little bit about
what polyamory is and how itdiffers from traditional
monogamous relationships.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Well, I guess the easiest way to put it is that
it's when someone's involved inone or more romantic or sexual
relationships, and so a lot ofpeople will come in as like a
married couple and would maybewant to find a third partner.
(02:27):
I put it like that because somepeople say like asking for,
like looking for a third, andthere are different viewpoints
on that.
But you can just be like solopoly, you can be married, you
can have relationship anarchy.
But I guess the easiest way toexplain it is just one or more
romantic partners.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
So then you've got more than one partner in the
relationship.
Typically from what we'velearned in like mental health
and you know working withcouples is even having two
people in a relationship can bea challenge and can be really
frustrating at times.
So, given your knowledge onpolyamory, how would you say
(03:08):
that it impacts individuals'mental and emotional well-being?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I mean, it can help, it can hurt.
It's just like with anyrelationship, like there are
boundaries that need to be setin place.
You need to be able to discussyour needs and sometimes
personalities clash, people justdon't get along and other times
, you know, it's amazing.
Just yeah, just like withmonogamous relationships.
(03:36):
It's about communication andtrust, honesty.
There's a lot of jealousy andsecurity that some people might
think doesn't happen inpolyamory.
But jealousy is a valid humanemotion and you know, honestly,
as you as one dives intopolyamory, you know there is a
(03:59):
lot of insecurity that comeswith that for most, for a lot of
people, just because they'rehaving to kind of unlearn a lot
of monogamous rules, for lack ofa better word.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Makes sense that there is, you know, challenges
for polyamory, just like there'schallenges for monogamy, and I
think jealousy is really one ofthose shared challenges.
But tell me about the benefitsof a polyamorous relationship.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
There's a sense of community for a lot of people
and there's this term calledkitchen table polyamory, where
partners will.
It could be partners orpartners, partners are all so
that it could like literally besitting around the kitchen table
just having a conversation.
A lot of people play boardgames.
(04:44):
You know like some people raisetheir kids together, so you get
that sense of community andsupport and there's also just
there's this viewpoint that youknow love is infinite and it's
just like when you have multiplefriends or when you have
multiple children, you know yourlove for those people doesn't
(05:05):
lessen.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Absolutely no.
I think that's a really goodpoint.
So in polyamorous relationships, how do individuals communicate
their emotional needseffectively?
What would be a way thatbecause to me it seems like
communicating your emotionalneeds to one person in a
monogamous relationship cansometimes be a barrier for a lot
(05:31):
of people and feeling thatsense of security and opening up
?
So now add another partner intoa relationship.
What, in your knowledge andwhat you've seen work, is the
best way for people to reallycommunicate their emotional
needs effectively?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
You're going to hear this a lot in the community but
communication and they'll justbrowbeat you with that I feel
like it's a lot of talk ofcommunicate but not a lot of how
to communicate.
There is more information outthere with the multi-amory
podcast, polysecure and morethan two.
So with communicating, it'simportant to even talk about the
(06:09):
small things before they buildup and become resentments.
So it's important to haveregular check-ins Sometimes some
people do it weekly, somepeople do it monthly and I think
even having regular date nightsthis is kind of an aside, but
as well as date nights foryourself, because just with one
(06:31):
relationship it can be difficultto have that time, that
individual time, but obviouslyit's harder the more people you
put into the equation.
So just making sure you havequality time for everyone
involved, including yourself.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Absolutely.
That's such a good point.
I think self-care and, like yousaid, dating yourself is so
important for even thatcontinued awareness of identity
and your self-confidence, andthat's definitely one of the
things that I share with myclients when they're like you
know, my self-esteem, like Idon't know I'm just, I have
social anxiety, I don't reallyknow who I am, and like part of
(07:06):
that process that can be findingyourself is learning to get
comfortable with you, takingyourself to a movie and
sometimes that can soundexcruciatingly painful to go see
a movie by yourself or to sitat a table and have lunch by
yourself but through doing thosethings you can really get
comfortable with who you are.
And if you're comfortable withyou, as you well know, then you
(07:28):
can absolutely be comfortable ina healthy relationship with
another person, because you'renot going to have those you know
behaviors of low self-esteemand the clinginess and losing
your identity with your partneror partners.
I think that's a really greatcall out to date yourself as
well.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, and in addition to you know, doing a lot of
reading and research on this,like I have, you know, personal
experience, so I like to call itfieldwork experience, because
I'm a nerd and I have, you know,battled in the past with
finding my identity and tryingnot to lose sight of it, and it
was difficult.
In past relationships Iremember one time I wanted to, I
(08:08):
wanted to go to lunch with oneof my partners and at the last
minute they had to cancel.
I don't remember why, but it'snot relevant and so I was just
at lunch by myself and it wasreally uncomfortable at first,
but it turns out nobody caresand it ended up being a
wonderful time.
I was at Mellow Mushroom, hadsome pizza, had a beer and just
(08:32):
treated myself and it was just,you know, like emotionally
nourishing for me to get out ofmy comfort zone and to take care
of myself.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
That's a really great point.
I can empathize with that a lotbecause I too, did like my own
emotional and likeself-awareness journey of
finding my identity.
And what does that look like?
Because for the longest time Iwas that person.
I was terrified to go anywhereby myself or do anything by
myself.
I always needed a person.
I really attributed mine tobeing an only child and just
(09:07):
like I need someone with me.
But I think that you know, likeyou said, is sitting in that
discomfort and then allowing itto go away and see what happens,
like that's the only way you'regoing to learn and grow is
through, you know, like thatdiscomfort.
And Brene Brown I love her somuch, like she's kind of like
(09:29):
the pioneer of discomfort and Itoo had kind of a similar
experience of because I think Iwould get in my own head a lot
of if I do this by myself.
Everyone's going to look at me,everybody's going to feel sorry
for me, everyone's going to belike, why is that poor girl at
lunch by herself?
But, like you said, nobodycares, like nobody's noticing,
(09:50):
like this is a thing that humansthat are well adjusted can do.
They can do things bythemselves.
So I think once I overcame thatfear of what other people are
going to think and say that'swhen I was really able to do
that for myself.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, and then you're fulfilling some of your own
needs and so then you're notreally projecting them on to
other people and so, like yousaid, that takes away that
cleanliness, but also it like itshows you what you need in your
life, what you can do foryourself and what I guess it
kind of holds yourselfaccountable and you're able to
(10:26):
decipher, like what needs needto be met on your own versus
with other relationships, likewhat needs can be met there, and
then you can communicatehealthy boundaries that way,
because you'll know what theyare.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Yes, and I'm so glad you bring up boundaries because,
as we know, boundaries arecrucial in any relationship.
So tell me how polyamorousindividuals can establish and
maintain boundaries withmultiple partners.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Well, again, like first, you have to know what
your boundaries are.
And, starting out, like when Istarted out with polyamory, I
honestly didn't know what myboundaries were because I'd
never done it before.
And I think it's important totalk with potential partners or
current partners If you are acouple who are considering
opening up your relationship, sothat, whether you're dating
(11:19):
together, whether you're datingseparately, ideally it's good to
date separately.
Just because it's so hard, it'snot impossible.
I don't want to give thatimpression.
It's not impossible for acouple to find someone who is
attracted to both of them, butthat's also.
The issue is that you have tofind one person who's attracted
(11:40):
to two different people and so,just kind of knowing that that
may not be probable, it's notuncommon, but it's better to
date separately because on topof that, there's disentanglement
, where it's kind of a growingpain, where you're learning to
separate a little bit from yourpartner, like whether you're
(12:02):
married or just been dating fora while where you're not as
dependent or codependent on them.
You're there because you wantto be with them, not because you
need to be with them.
So, discussing with current orpotential partners what your
expectations are and somewhatflexible on that, because
(12:22):
sometimes it might not berealistic, but just kind of
communicating where you are andhaving a conversation about it
and just kind of going fromthere.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
In a monogamous relationship, finding the way to
communicate boundaries and yourneeds with one partner can be a
challenge.
And even that thing that we dowhen we notice that our partner
is sad or frustrated or upset,and finding ways to really
(12:51):
manage emotions in a way likeokay, I notice they're upset, I
need to talk to them about it.
I want to make sure I'm thereto support them as much as
possible.
Now you're taking that andyou're multiplying it by two.
What would you say would be agood best practice for avoiding
any type of emotional burnoutfrom trying to juggle that?
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Okay, so I will answer this question by using
some of my field work experience.
What didn't go?
Well?
I was in a triad and well, itwas kind of on and off with the
triad.
Sometimes I was with one of thepartners, sometimes I was with
both of the partners, and soit's a little.
But regardless, in eithersituation configuration, I guess
(13:37):
I would get the drama from bothpartners about each other, in
addition to any drama that I maybe involved in, you know.
But regardless, I was involvedin all of it and while I think,
on some level, of course, Ineeded to know about these
things, I gave 100% to both ofthem and nothing to myself.
(14:03):
And eventually there was thispoint where I said I need a
break, where I don't talk toeither of you for a few days,
and I didn't like doing that.
But it ended up being kind of amutual decision, so I didn't
feel too bad about that.
I mean, I felt, yeah, I feltappropriately bad, but I guess
(14:25):
what I would do in the future is, you know, taking more time for
myself and not answering everymessage as it came in, not just
saying I'm not available for Xamount of time, that I need to
meditate or go for a walk orwhatever I would be doing in
that time and then revisit itwhen I was in a clearer
(14:47):
headspace.
That's so yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
That's such a great point and I think a lot of
people can really connect withthat, because, whether it's your
friends or your children oryour partners or partner being
on all the time and immediatelyresponding like, oh, someone
needs something, let me meettheir needs, and oh, this person
does too, let me meet theirneeds it can get emotionally
(15:12):
exhausting and, like you said,if we're not setting those
boundaries in, the hardest partis then enforcing those
boundaries, like OK, I have aboundary.
Oh no, I have to tell peopleabout it and hopefully I don't
hurt their feelings, and that'sthe part that kind of feels icky
.
But then again there's thatdiscomfort piece.
There's a space for us to grow,and having that communication
(15:33):
about I'm feeling overstimulated, I'm feeling emotionally
overwhelmed it's no one's fault,but I need to recharge and I
need to take some time for me todo that, like meditate or go
for a walk or just have adisconnected couple of days
where maybe I'm laying on thecouch watching Netflix and just
letting my mind wander inimagination land.
No, I think that's a reallygreat point about if you start
(15:57):
to notice that you are on callall the time for no matter who
it is, but especially in arelationship where you have
other partners that you'retrying to stay connected to
taking that break, givingyourself that time to recharge.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah, and something you said about communicating
boundaries and being concernedabout hurting the other person's
feelings, like that's such anormal, valid feeling, I think.
But what I tend to say to myclients is, so long as you're
respectful and the way youcommunicate it, you can't really
(16:33):
control how they respond and Iknow that's a hard truth because
I struggle with it too, whichis how I can tell them it's a
hard truth.
But so long as you'rerespectful about it, that's
pretty much all you can do.
And, depending on the situation, it's normal to expect some
pushback, because if aboundary's never been placed
(16:54):
before, then people kind ofassume that everything's always
going to be status quo untilit's not, and people don't like
change.
And so I think so long asthey're not out and out assholes
, then it's okay for them tohave whatever reaction they're
having, and then they canrevisit later like hey, now that
(17:14):
I've thought about it a littlemore, that's actually a
reasonable boundary and I'msorry for acting that way.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
No, that makes tons of sense because, like you said,
people don't like change,people don't like feedback,
people don't like hearing thatsomething they are doing is not
perfect and pleasing everyone,because a lot of people are
pleasers and so as soon as theirego receives that feedback, it
is very easy to then getreactive.
Also, like one of the things Italk to my clients about,
(17:42):
because I get it like not beinga pushover is hard, setting
boundaries is it's crucially.
I, too, get those butterfliesand pits in my stomach when I
have to do it.
It doesn't feel good.
Another thing I talk to myclients about is the power of
prefacing.
So think about your fears thatyou have about communicating a
boundary to your mom or yourpartner or your child, and what
(18:07):
do you not want them to think?
What do you not want them tofeel?
Okay, there's no guarantee thatthey're not going to think or
feel that, but if you prefaceyour conversation by letting
them know that you hope thatthey don't think, that, you hope
that they don't feel that way,and then you tell them your
boundary, maybe it makes it blowa little bit easier.
(18:28):
Maybe it goes ahead and puts intheir mind like, well, she
truthfully doesn't want me tofeel like she is bullying me or
ganging up on me or criticizingme and intentionally hurting me.
She's just giving me feedback,again, not completely
bulletproof and foolproof, butsometimes prefacing can be
(18:50):
helpful, especially if you'vealready got a pretty good
resemblance of open and clearcommunication with that person.
It could be a nice safety netin place.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
And using those I statements saying like I feel
this way when X happens, andtherefore blah, blah, blah.
The boundary.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Absolutely Avoiding those attacking you, you this,
you that.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, because if they're going to be on the, if
you're going to use defensivelanguage, then you know that
ego's like that, ego's gonnalike the walls are gonna come up
.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Absolutely, absolutely, and so in another
way or another thing kind ofsegue into my next question
People don't like change.
People don't like things thatdon't feel normal, and so I know
we've mentioned before that.
You know non monogamousRelationships ethical non
monogamous relationships havebeen around throughout history,
(19:47):
but that's not a norm for oursociety.
It can sometimes lead to stigmaor misunderstanding about
polyamory and people who makethose choices to be in those
relationships getting mistreated, treated poorly and judged by
people they know and love andcomplete strangers.
How would you say thatIndividuals in polyamorous
(20:11):
relationships can cope withexternal judgment and continue
to prioritize their relationshipand mental health?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I would suggest going online to find local
communities and if you can'tfind local, then you know, maybe
a Facebook group unless I'mdating myself by saying that
there's probably a Reddit group.
So I'm still cool, honestly.
It's okay not to be out ifyou're like, if you're not
comfortable, or if you have, youknow family that you know you
(20:40):
fear judgment over, or maybe youhave a teaching job or a mill
or you're in the military orsomething you know you might
need to Keep it a secret andthat's okay.
But having that support,finding that community, however
you can, I think is important tomental health and knowing that
you're not alone in it.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
What are some common misconceptions about polyamory
that you've heard or witnessed,or experience that you'd like to
address?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
When I told my mom that I was Polly she she said,
yes, she'll be fine with mesaying this.
She said, oh yeah, back in myday we just called that a key
party and I'm like, well, notthat's, that's more swinging,
but but that's under theethically non monogamous
umbrella.
So you're in the ballpark.
I was one of the funnier thingsthat I heard, but mostly that
(21:32):
it's.
It's just a way to get awaywith.
Cheating is the big one I hear.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Tell me some advice that you could give to.
You know individuals whosefriends or family members just
don't understand and might evenbe on the fence about ending
their relationship with theirfriend or family member after
you know finding out theirpolyamorous like.
Give me some advice, maybe forthe individual that's going
(21:59):
through that.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
So what I would say to the person is to At some
point, if they're ready for it,talk to the friend and explain
what polyamory means you know tothem and maybe that would.
Maybe there would be someunderstanding there.
If that conversations notpossible for whatever reason,
then writing a letter to thatperson that they do not send and
(22:24):
it can be unfiltered.
You know, like if there's anyanger, resentment, whatever, it
can go in there and Then theycan read it over and burn it,
and if they still want tosomehow have a conversation,
then writing a second draft andmaybe sending an email, mailing
the letter or even a textmessage.
(22:45):
I guess, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I'm a big fan of the written communication and hard
situations where it seems likehaving verbal communication
would just blow up and be adisaster.
So I think that's a really greatidea.
Sounds like that could work fora family member as well.
Would you say yeah?
So, thinking about the stigma,that absolutely does exist.
(23:09):
I know there have been strideshappening in reducing that
stigma and making alternativerelationship styles to monogamy
more accepted.
It's definitely still in itsinfancy and kind of based on
where you're located in thecountry and community, but I
know in Massachusetts there'sactually two towns who have
(23:32):
legalized multiple partnerunions and marriages.
I want to say Somerville,massachusetts, and Medford,
massachusetts, where you canlegally be married to more than
one person and kind of celebrateyour polyamory that way.
So, thinking about that advance, is there anything else you
(23:55):
think that we could do as asociety working to reduce the
stigma around this?
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I think people who are comfortable being out keep
doing that.
Yeah, just talk to your friendsabout it, talk to your family
about it, if you are comfortableand safe and able to do so, of
course, but just making it likea normal conversation.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Absolutely.
I mean, I think we all dream ofthe day where we can just openly
be who we are and love who welove and live our lives in a
kind of open way, as long aswe're not harming other people.
But maybe that's a utopian dream, maybe it never happens, but I
think that's a really great callout to you know, if you are
comfortable being out and you'recomfortable living your life
(24:48):
like that, that is helping tochallenge the norms and the what
is accepted, because whenthere's, you know, 15 people
lined up who are going to passjudgment and hate you for your
choices, there's also going tobe other people, like that
community you mentioned, whosupport you and are there for
you and your choices.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me today, dr Mickey, to
(25:10):
talk about polyamory.
Before we go, I did want toshare that Dr Mickey is our new
state director for our mentalhealth counselor program out of
North Carolina.
So she is building her kindermind North Carolina mental
health counselor group right nowand I just wanted to check in
with you to see if you wanted toshare with the world what your
(25:33):
goals are for being the statedirector for North Carolina
kinder mind.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I mean I just want to increase access to mental
health care in the state and Imean I find it.
It can be so difficult nownowadays because so many
therapists are backed up.
They have three, four monthwait list and some people lack
transportation.
(26:00):
On top of that, you know, a lotof people work from home and
it's just on top of that.
It's just more convenient foreven the people who aren't
working from home, people who dohave transportation but maybe
they have an hour lunch break.
You know well most people thatthey have that or less, but you
know, but they don't have timeto drive to an office, go to
(26:21):
therapy and then drive back towork.
But they may have time to, youknow, eat during a therapy
session.
So just having moreavailability for mental health.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I love that.
That's so great, absolutely,and this mental health crisis
that we're in it's kind of beenhere even before COVID.
I think COVID just reallyshines light on the fact that we
need more therapy options, weneed more providers.
So it's so great and we're soexcited that you're joining us
to help us increase access tothe folks in North Carolina.
(26:54):
If there's anyone who has anyquestions about what we talked
about today with Polly Amary orquestions about Kindermine North
Carolina, would you becomfortable sharing your email
address with Kindermine?
Speaker 2 (27:09):
It's drmicky D-R-M-I-K-I at kinderminecom
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Well, thanks so much again, Dr Mickey.
It was a pleasure speaking withyou and we will be back with
episode two on the Kinderminepodcast in about one week.
The Kindermine podcast isproduced and edited by Dr
Elizabeth Barlow, with music byPax Minerva.
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