Episode 56: Strengthening Cognition Through Gaming. A Conversation with Anna Vagin

Discover how games can revolutionize the way we support children with social cognitive differences in our engaging conversation with Dr.Anna Vagin. Anna takes us on her journey into the world of social cognition, sharing her expertise in working with children on the autism spectrum, children with ADHD, and other communication challenges. Learn how attachment theory plays a crucial role in understanding these differences and how parents and educators can shift their perspectives to better support unique communication styles. Anna's personal anecdotes highlight the transformative power of empathy, offering insights into creating inclusive environments for diverse learners.

We delve into practical strategies for making game nights an enjoyable and educational experience for the whole family. Discover how games can become powerful tools for teaching emotional intelligence and social growth. We share tips on adapting complex games for neurodivergent children, creating a safe space for emotional learning, and encouraging post-game discussions to enhance children's emotional intelligence. With Anna's wisdom and experience, this episode is packed with valuable tools and strategies to make your next family game night not just fun, but a meaningful learning opportunity for everyone involved.

More About Our Guest
Anna Vagin, PhD, is a licensed speech/language pathologist with over 30 years of experience. In her private practice in Marin County, California, she provides individual sessions and social learning groups to children, young adults, and their families. Her particular interests are using media and gaming, including Therapeutically Applied Role-Playing Games, to support students with social cognition and language differences, and the role of mental processes in communication, relationships, and life satisfaction.

She provides consultation to parents and schools, is a frequent US and International speaker, and a prolific writer/contributor on topics related to social cognition.

Connect with Anna
Website: https://www.socialtime.org/
Instagram: annavagin.sociallearninglabs

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Powered by Prenda Microschools, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle young learners' curiosity, motivation, and well-being.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
that build skills, that build cognitive process,
that support students inthinking and noticing and
realizing, and that vocabularyis so important for life.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hi and welcome to the Kindled podcast where we dig
into the art and science behindkindling, the motivation,
curiosity and mental well-beingof the young humans in our lives
.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
Together, we'll discover practical tools and
strategies you can use to helpkids unlock their full potential
and become the strongestversion of their future selves.
How do you feel about playinggames in your house?

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Board games, oh man, I we've talked about my
relationship with play before,right, so it's not, it's not
great because I'm misproduct,I'm just misproductivity.
It's like is this a?
I just feel like with games youcan be more.
Yeah, so this is why I likeboard games Cause it's like,
okay, I can.
It's like a more discreet taskthat I can feel like with games
you can be more productive.
Yeah, so this is why I likeboard games because it's like,
okay, I can.
It's like a more discreet taskthat I can feel like I'm doing

(01:09):
something instead of like let'splay Cupcake Unicorn Land, where
I get a little bit lost in likea lack of productivity there.
So I really like games and Ilike never like I just want to
buy all of the games, so I loveit.
Our family plays games all thetime, but they can be
contentious.
I have some kids who handlefailure and like losing better.

(01:30):
We get hurt feelings and but Ialso see how much it makes them
grow and builds theirrelationships.
What is gaming like at yourhouse?

Speaker 3 (01:39):
I love buying all the games as well.
However, I have PTSD fromplaying games because I have
children that are very intenseand they really get into it.
So I cannot wait to talk to ourguest today.
Her name is Anna Vagan.
She's a licensed speechlanguage pathologist with over

(02:02):
30 years of experience in herprivate practice in Marin County
, california.
She provides individualsessions and social learning
groups to children, young adultsand their families.
Her particular interests areusing media and gaming,
including therapeuticallyapplied role-playing games,
which I can't wait to figure out.
What that is to supportstudents with social cognition

(02:26):
and language differences and therole of mental processes in
communication, relationships andlife satisfaction.
She provides consultation toparents in schools, is a
frequent US and internationalspeaker and a prolific writer
contributor on topics related tosocial cognition.
Okay, let's go talk to Anna.
Hi Anna, welcome to the Kindledpodcast.

(02:50):
We are so excited to talk toyou today.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
I am very happy to be here and I'm really looking
forward to our conversation.
So thanks for having me.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
Of course, okay, so let's dive right in.
Tell us a little bit about yourbackground.
What is your?
Why in the work that you'redoing in the world?

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Well, just like Katie , I am a speech-language
pathologist and when you startyour training you start broad
and then over the years you kindof find your niche, you find
where you're supposed to be andI was working a lot with kids
and with adults and kind ofdoing a lot of that broad

(03:29):
therapy work and then I decidedto go back and get my doctorate
and that was a real turningpoint for me and I had the real
pleasure of studying with MaryMain over at UC Berkeley, who
was kind of the person whobrought attachment theory from
England here to America, fromJohn Bowlby, so worked a lot on

(03:51):
attachment theory andcraniofacial disfigurement and
child language, and so that waskind of an interesting
compilation wrote mydissertation on mother-child
interaction with babies withcleft lip and palate and as I
then got into my career, part ofwhat I realized was that a good

(04:11):
thing for the world is that theincidence of cleft lip and
palate is not very high.
What that means if you're aspeech language pathologist is
that I started looking for otherareas where I felt I was a good
fit and really with all of thework in attachment theory I was

(04:32):
really diving into relationships.
What made relationships moveforward what made relationships
more challenging to establishthe role of language in that,
and then over the years ended upwith the population of kids who
have social cognitivedifferences, whether they have
autism spectrum or ADHD oranxiety disorder, selective

(04:57):
mutism a real broad range kindof falls under that umbrella and
I have just been so happy thereworking with amazing students
and families and really found myniche right there, and so I've
been so happy there probably nowfor about 25 years.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
That's awesome.
I love that you call it socialcognitive differences instead of
disorder, because it really isa difference in the way that
they communicate.
My home is filled with lots ofthe kids that you work with and
it's sometimes it is challenging, but also I feel like they've
taught me so much aboutcommunication number one

(05:35):
relationship and they just seethe world differently, so I can
see how you are drawn to workingwith kids like that.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
And part of it, I think just picking up on what
you're saying, adrian is thatability.
You know, we often asclinicians and as parents and as
adults, are pretty egocentricourselves.
We don't have that perspectivetaking to think well, wait a
minute, let me look at it fromyour perspective, from your

(06:04):
position, and once we can shiftthat lens, it's really
interesting.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
Yeah, and what for me , it went from this.
I had to really look at my roleas a parent, instead of seeing
myself as someone that'scontrolling or you know, cause?
One of my sons is PDA and so Ican't give him demands in the
way that traditional parentingstyles tell us.
If you're a good parent, yourkid behaves and your child will

(06:34):
do this.
Well, guess what?
That doesn't work for him, soit's really helped me go okay,
have true empathy and look at itfrom his point of view.
And then I go into so manydifferent micro schools and I go
into so many different microschools and I'm around so many
different kids and it's reallyallowed me to have empathy for
all humans really and look at itfrom their perspective, which
is really beautiful.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
And micro schools really give us that opportunity
to individualize more, to bemore empathic, to individualize
more, to be more empathic, tohelp our students self-advocate
as they get older.
So they have the tools to saythis is what I need and this is
how you can help me get there.

(07:16):
And we can also supply ourstudents with tools that might
say you is where you are now andyou're happy there, but maybe
there are options when you'reready, to look beyond where you

(07:37):
are now, to map that outvisually so they can see
alternatives, and to see themvisually rather than being told
and talked to about it.
One of the things I talk about alot in my writing and in my
trainings is the need to provideso many of these students with
visual information that justtalking it is not enough.

(07:59):
It's easier for them to see it.
It's easier for them to see it.
They can keep it in workingmemory, whether it's a sketch or
a list or a write-up of somesort or a continuum that shows
them options.
Those visual supports are soimportant, maybe especially for
those kiddos who have a lot oflanguage, because so often I get

(08:20):
the pushback of but they don'tneed visual.
They're so chatty, they talkall the time.
And yes, they might talk allthe time, but that doesn't mean
that they can keep complicated,abstract social information in
working memory while they thinkabout it and learn about it.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
Yeah, modeling is really important too.
So seeing it in visually, butthen also having people around
them modeling those behaviors isreally huge as well.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
So I want to kind of pull us back a little bit.
I think some of our listenersmaybe aren't quite sure where
they're not so familiar withthis world as we are.
So can you just like go back alittle bit and talk about the
type of kids that you work withand how, how, like bridge the

(09:07):
gap?
But so often so, as a speechlanguage pathologist, I find you
know therapeutic or like whatam I trying to say Methods of
practice and interacting withkids that are really helpful.
And then, nine times out of 10,I think this is good for all
kids, this isn't just for kidswho are neurotypical or anything

(09:29):
like that.
So kind of bridge that gap forus.
How can we, as adults andparents, start to think about
helping kids with this socialinteraction piece?

Speaker 1 (09:45):
I think one of the things that I always try to keep
in mind is that whenever we'reworking with kids, it doesn't
matter how old they are.
We want them engaged in thelearning and most of the time
that means it needs to beinteresting and fun, especially
as kids get older and when we'reworking with students who have

(10:08):
maybe perspective-takingdifferences or challenges,
identifying you know how thebehavior of one affects the
behavior and feelings of other,what we want to do is to make
sure that they're interested inthe material, that they're
interested in the material andin my work.
You know I'm kind of known for,you know the woman who watches

(10:29):
animated videos and usesanimated videos to make the
point, to make the lesson, tosay let's talk about, if we're
talking about something likeflexibility, which is a big
issue for lots of kids and lotsof grownups, I know too.
You know we can say wow,flexibility is really

(10:50):
complicated, depends on whereyou are, who you're with, what's
happening.
It's so abstract.
Let's talk about it as we watchexamples of interesting, cute
characters in a wonderful storydemonstrating flexibility.
Let's talk about what'shappening that's working, maybe

(11:10):
some little glitches that comeup in their interaction.
Let's just talk about it in afun and relaxed way, rather than
saying I heard you weren't veryflexible yesterday.
No one's going to want to havethat discussion.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
I've never said that before.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
So when we can find the back door the back door
being more fun, more engaging,where we want our students
sitting up and taking notice andlaughing, but then also saying,
oh, you know what?
That kind of happened to me.
I kind of felt like that.
Then we've had the discussiondevelop organically and we're

(11:51):
off to the races because theyfeel safe, they feel like
they're not alone, they feellike they're relating to the
characters.
And then we could take the nextstep when we're talking about
tools and strategies.
And then we could take the nextstep when we're talking about
tools and strategies, findingexamples of strategies being
used in an animated video andsaying, well, that worked for
that character, do you think itwould work for us?

(12:13):
I think that's a reallypractical way of making the
learning fun.
You know what happens asstudents get older.
They've seen a lot of thematerials they come in and they,
you know, they might say inSeptember I know that program, I

(12:34):
do that all the time.
Oh, I've done all thoseworksheets, I did that in
kindergarten.
We have to show them somethingnew, something exciting, and
that's why I think in one of ourfirst conversations we talked
about the power of games,because games, you know I don't
know if you feel like this,katie, but when I was going
through my training, games werethe break from the learning

(12:55):
totally, and now games are thelearning, because we can channel
a fabulous game to work on somuch that's involved in social
engagement.
We can work on regulation.
We can work on flexibility andcooperation and managing
feelings and conversation,tolerating mistakes in ourselves

(13:17):
and in others.
We can work on levels ofcompetitiveness how do we handle
and manage competitiveness?
How can we be more resilient?
It's all wrapped up in so manyengaging and fun activities that
we can harness in our work.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah, so in your work you call this therapeutically
applied role playing games, isthat?
I mean there's lots ofdifferent games, but can you
kind of tell us about theseapplied role playing games that
you use in your work a littlebit more?

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Sure.
Therapeutically appliedrole-playing games are a very
specific format of games.
The most commonly knownrole-playing game is D&D
Dungeons Dragons.
However, about 10 years ago Imet Adam Davis and Adam Johns up
at Game2Groworg up in Seattle.

(14:10):
I met them when I waspresenting at the PAX convention
on gaming and students withsocial learning differences and
they have developed atherapeutically applied
role-playing game calledCritical Core and for any of
your listeners who areinterested in RPGs and
role-playing games possibly theyare dungeon masters they need

(14:33):
to look into Critical Core.
It is an amazing, a powerfulway to work with our students.
I was able to go through theirmental health training program
and get certified.
Critical core works on fivecore capacities.
Here's your quiz.
Let's see if I know them all offthe top of my head.

(14:55):
I have to use my fingersRegulation, collaboration,
planning or executive functionperspective taking and pretend
play.
And when I heard those corecapacities I was like, wait a
minute, that's exactly what I do.
I need to learn about this.
So critical core is a quest,unlike D&D.

(15:19):
There are pre-made characters,so you take on a character.
There are pre-made characters,so you take on a character.
So I might be an elf wizard ora half orc barbarian and I can
give my character a name.
I can create their backstory,but they have certain strengths
and weaknesses and the clinician, as the dungeon master, takes
the group through a quest.

(15:43):
And I have seen I was a betatester for Critical Core during
Shelter-in-Place and boy did itsave me clinically.
Because it was a wonderfulprogram to test during
Shelter-in-Place because we wereall stuck at home with our
families and this allowed thekids I was seeing in group to go
.
It was like we went on avacation for an hour and it was

(16:05):
fabulous.
But the game itself I've seenit really change students in how
they think about themselves.
It allows them the opportunityto experiment, being a little
different and getting thefeedback from the group in wow,
we really wow.
You're not just throwing bombsanymore, you're starting to you
know, talk to people we meetalong the.
You're not just throwing bombsanymore, you're starting to talk

(16:26):
to people we meet along the way, instead of assuming everybody
is an enemy.
It was such a powerful influenceon my clinical work, not just
when I'm playing critical core,it applies to all of my clinical
work now.
It's made me a much betterclinician because I think it's

(16:47):
opened me up a little bit moreto how can I be even more fun?
Because, again, especially asour students get older, they
really need to be engaged andfeel safe and respected and
supported, but also like doingthe work is fun, because what we
want them to experience is thatsense of wow.

(17:14):
I really am connected tosomebody right now.
I'm part of this group rightnow and it feels really great.
I want more of this and itlooks like I'm actually kind of
okay at it, that I'm beingsuccessful.
I'm doing something different.
It might be challenging me, butwow, I'm kind of hanging in

(17:38):
there.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, that's that's like we talk a lot about self
determination theory, where I'mjust like you're creating the
perfect little recipe here, Likethey're feeling this feeling of
belonging and relatedness,community, they're feeling
competence and then they'remaking, you know, independent,
creative choices and that'sgiving them a sense of autonomy
and like that's going to bereally, really healthy for the
brain to sit in that state, inthat state of flow, with all of

(17:59):
those things present.
So that's we've.
We've been talking about theirrole-playing.
What other like categories of?

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Oh my gosh, they're all useful.
This is a very exciting time ingames Because I'm in private
practice, I'm able to use videogames in my practice and I
really lean toward the XboxKinect, which, if you don't know
your gaming systems, the Kinectis the one where you move your

(18:30):
body and the avatar on thescreen moves, and so that means
that my kids can play beachvolleyball, they can play soccer
, they can do all kinds ofsports.
Pixar has a wonderful PixarRush Connect game where you're
the Incredibles and you have tosolve these problems and work
together.
So I love using video gamesagain because it builds

(18:53):
resilience, it builds theability to interact while you're
doing something.
I love card games and tabletopgames and penguin flicking games
, and I have lists of penguinflicking games.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
Hold on.
What is that?

Speaker 1 (19:11):
It's wonderful.
It won all the awards.
Maybe now, maybe it was evenbefore covid ice cool or cool
ice I always get the two words.
I'm not sure which one comesfirst.
Uh, there's ice cool and icecool two.
This is a penguin flicking gamekatie are you?

Speaker 2 (19:28):
familiar with this?
No, I'm not, but my, mynine-year-old, loves penguins
and games, so I'm very intrigued.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
This is a great game.
It's a box in a box in a boxgame.
So you put together all theseboxes with clips and you make a
school that has doorways and youhave to flick penguins through
doorways to collect fish and thechore is not to get caught by
the principal, so one personplays the principal who's trying

(19:58):
to catch the other penguins.
This is a fabulous, fabulousgame.
You know, part of what happensis one of my pet peeves, I have
to confess, is when I see highschool students who still only
play Uno.
They started playing Unokindergarten, first grade, and

(20:20):
they are still playing Uno.
They're still playing Uno.
I'm not saying Uno is not agreat game.
Uno is a fabulous game, butthere are dozens of schools that
build skills, that buildcognitive process, that support
students in thinking andnoticing and realizing, and that

(20:44):
vocabulary is so important forlife.
Mental state verbs we have tomake sure that our students have
facility with them, becausethose are the words that bind
anxiety.
If we think about when we'reworried about something, what
helps us often it is rememberingthat we've gotten through

(21:08):
something like this in the pastpast or knowing that tomorrow
will be a better day.
So those mental state verbsreally are feathered into a lot
of games.
One of the things that I'velearned in 40 plus years of
being a clinician is that nomatter how we as adults and

(21:32):
parents want to protect ourstudents, we can't.
Things will happen to them thatwe have no control over Parents
will get sick, moms will getcancer, grandparents will die,
kids will have accidents.

(21:52):
The more that we arm ourstudents with maximum resilience
, maximum understanding ofmental process, maximum ability
to think about the future andthe past, the better equipped
they will be.
And I have had so manyexperiences now that a lot of
the kids who I worked with whenthey were three are now in their

(22:15):
20s and I see this happen tothem and the ones who are more
facile at everything we justtalked about, do better, and the
challenge there is that thereare a number of those students
who I had misjudged and I hadnot thought they could get there

(22:37):
.
I had not thought that theycould understand complicated
words like imagine, and I waswrong, because when presented
with the material in a way thatthey could understand, they got
it and it helped them in theiryoung adulthood when things

(22:58):
happened to them.
Some terrible things havehappened.
It's just how life is, and so,even though we're coming at it
from a fun angle of games, it'sactually a very serious business
.
Yeah, you know our children,especially right now.

Speaker 3 (23:16):
Absolutely so.
Can you explain a little moreof the connection between mental
processes, communication andrelationships?

Speaker 1 (23:24):
That's a very big connection and it's very super
complicated and part of thechallenge is that they are all
interconnected, they all buildon each other.
But we can also watch thesestrands and think about these
strands separately.
So if we're working on mentalprocesses, we can build mental

(23:51):
state verb vocabulary, becausestudies have shown us that we
can build it in students.
We just have to give them thatstimulation of the vocabulary.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
Can you just define what a mental process is for our
listeners?
Just give us some examples.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
Well, you can think of it as mental state verbs, and
so a mental state verb is averb.
First of all, that is abstract,that you can't see.
So you can see me drinking.
First of all, that is abstractthat you can't see.
So you can see me drinking, butyou can't see me remembering.
So mental state processes aremental state verbs, like

(24:31):
remember, know, understand,think, decide, plan, hope, miss,
love, forget all of of those.
They are so important.
We're often wanting our olderstudents to collaborate in
writing goals.
To do that, you have to knowwhat you want and what you hope
and what you wish.
Oh, I wish I could move out ofmy parents house.

(24:51):
Okay, well, let's anchor thatwith some goals, because what do
you need to do to get to thatpoint?
And so those are mentalprocesses.
We can work on them separately,but they have this huge ripple
effect into everything else.
If we're talking aboutcommunication, we can work on
communication from aconversational perspective.

(25:11):
How are you doing with your youknow?
Do you add comments?
How are you at asking questions?
Do you ask follow-up questions?
How are you at expressing youropinion?
Do you feel confident or do younot really want to take the
risk of maybe everybody willhave a different opinion.
How can we support you inbroadening your conversational

(25:33):
abilities so we can work on itin isolation, but again it has
ripple effects into everythingelse.
Similarly we can work onattachment and relationships
kind of, you know, in a littlecapsule, but of course that
works within the largerconstruct of our humanity which
encompasses kind of thattrifecta, with a lot of other

(25:56):
factors also obviously cominginto play.
But that's what we want is tokind of juggle all of those
balls and watch them allflourish together.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, this is a good reminder that sometimes as
adults with fully I'll put fullyin quotation marks here
developed prefrontal cortexes,because we know that the
prefrontal cortexes, because weknow that the prefrontal cortex
does not always naturallydevelop um, needs certain,
certain uh experiences andthings to help uh, help its um
development.
But um, it's.

(26:26):
It's sometimes easy for us asadults, with with um, with our
adult brains, to think like,well, it's obvious and natural
to decide something, to remembersomething, to wish something,
to do all these things, and sowe kind of project that, that
skill and we assume like, oh,this nine-year-old should be
able to do that, that's not hard, right, but we need to really

(26:51):
just take a minute and reflecton the fact that those are
actual cognitive skills that arenot just.
We should not assume that kidshave them, even typically
developing kids, neurotypicalkids, um, because it really it
creates this, this break wherethe where there's the student is
suddenly lacking, like theyshould be able to do something

(27:13):
and they can't, and then there'sfrustration and that actually
makes it more difficult to haverelationships and to be playful
and all these things.
So I think when we sit in aplace of like observation and
curiosity around, like, oh,that's so interesting.
You know, I can naturally dothese things and plan and stay
focused and things like that.
And this child seems tostruggle and that's not wrong,

(27:34):
and that's like that.
And this child seems tostruggle and that's not wrong,
and that's not bad, and they'renot deficient, it's just where
they're at, on their like.
You know, if you imagine likethe brain on like a little
conveyor belts of like, you know, getting all of its things put
on, it's just like, oh, they'rejust here and you know, tomorrow
they'll be here and my job intheir life is to interact with
them in a way that helps supportthe development of, you know, x
, y or Z, and I can do thatthrough a game, I can do that

(27:54):
through the way that Icommunicate, I can do that
through our relationship.
There's so many different wayswe can do that, but I think it's
just really important to sit ina state of curiosity and
observation instead of judgmentand like lack, like judging that
they lack something.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
Yes, and part of it is, I think, I think, the reason
.
You know, if we think about,well, why are some students not
picking up, not seeming to bepicking up, these mental state
verbs?
And my personal theory is thatoften, when we have a student
with learning and languagedifferences, parents are given
the feedback, the kind ofinstruction to simplify your

(28:31):
language to your child, and Ithink that has certainly has
validity.
However, the way that we oftendo that is by removing the
mental state verbs.
We know that kids learn mentalstate verbs by hearing them, and
so if I've been told, as aparent, to simplify my language,
that means that instead ofsaying, oh my gosh, I just

(28:55):
realized I forgot to take thechicken out of the freezer.
We have to stop at the store.
I will say we have to stop atthe store.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
You stop narrating all of that rich cognitive
language Interesting.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
Exactly exactly, and so I have removed my child's
opportunity to hear those words.
And so, conversely, what thestudies show is that when we
encourage parents to startfeathering in this vocabulary,
the magical part is that thestudent will begin to develop

(29:32):
use of that vocabulary beyondthe words we've been stimulating
.
So I was working with a youngadult on this and his mother was
working on mental state verbswith him because he really
didn't use them.
And he came into session oneday and he said I really enjoyed
my weekend.
And I was like you know, I haveall these alerts that go off

(29:54):
when I hear a mental state verb.
And I texted his mom and I saidhave you been using enjoyed?
And she's a very reliablesource.
And she texted back right awayno, did he say it?
And I was like he sure did.
He sure did say enjoyed.
And he was glowing when he saidit.
It wasn't that he just said it,he had stepped into his life in

(30:18):
a whole different way, with notjust the word but the
experiential knowledge of Ienjoy my life.
It was just, it was beautiful.
And so we get that rippleeffect.
It won't just be the words thatwe're using that they will.

(30:38):
It like opens the door.
It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
This is kind of reminding me I'm very into
literacy I guess that's my likespeech, language pathology niche
and we do this to children'sliterature.
If we want to simplify a bookor like make make something
easily readable or something,we'll take words out.
So when we look at the pagethere are very few words on it.
So we'll take a complicatedsentence and we'll reduce it to

(31:04):
three or four words so it's easyto read.
But then what we do is thatwe've taken out a lot of the
information in the text.
So then that leaves the childto need to infer a lot about
what's going on, which isactually a way more difficult
cognitive skill to infersomething.
It's like, oh, like yourexample of going to the store.

(31:28):
If you just suddenly say we needto go to the store and the
child doesn't have all of thatrich context, they're going to
be confused and maybe frustratedbecause they thought they were
going straight home and nowwe're stopping and they're not
brought along in that thinking,that narration.
So it definitely happens in ourconversation.
It also happens in literatureand I think sometimes when we
are talking about vocabularyexposure and developing

(31:52):
someone's like languagecomprehension and you know their
semantics and syntax and allthat.
We tend to think, oh, thisstudent is struggling with
reading, so I'm going to read.
When I read out loud, I'm goingto read very simple texts and
I'm going to really like stay,you know, if they're reading at
a first grade level, I'm goingto.
I'm going to just read othertexts at a first grade level to
them, when really we need to gofar above their decoding,

(32:15):
comprehension, right and talkand and and build out their
whole linguistic world, and Ithink that's what you're calling
us to.
It's like, yeah, they're notdoing these things.
That doesn't mean we shouldlike come to their level and
simplify.
We need to hold that.
We need to create a model thatthat asks more of them and
demonstrates and models that,and I think that's that's just a
thing that I'm taking home fromwhat you're saying right now.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
Yeah, I was just.
I was just listening to apodcast and they were talking
about reading stories at nightand before bedtime.
And it's not so much about thestory that you're reading and
the words on the page, but it'sthe the relationship and the
story that you're reading andthe words on the page, but it's
the relationship and thequestions that are evoked from
the story that you could reallydive into instead of going,

(33:02):
because oftentimes us adults,especially if we were
traditionally educated it's likewe have a task.
The task here is to read thisstory and to read these words on
the page to my child.
They start asking questions.
We're like, nope, we got to getpage to my child.
They start asking questions.
We're like, nope, we gotta getback to the story.
No, but the beauty of when we'reusing games or books or stories
with our kids is to allow, liketo invite them in or allow them

(33:26):
to invite us into their world.
And especially this podcast inparticular is about like, right
before bedtime and right beforethe brain is going to rest and
process all the things from theday.
It's a really good time to doit at night, but I'm seeing that
too.
So when you said this child orthis young adult enjoyed like.

(33:47):
Where is he getting that from?
Like, just relationships, justworking on these things,
becoming familiar with what thatword is, because the mom didn't
use that word.
So where do you think he wasgetting that from?

Speaker 1 (34:00):
That's kind of.
The big question is doesworking on mental state verbs in
a discrete form open the mindto more recognition of
experiential process?
And that's kind of what I thinkis that because the way that

(34:21):
the vocabulary grows and it'skind of you're opening the door
on self-agency with words likedecide, you know, I decided,
like when another student youknow would say I decided to have
a pink lollipop last night fordessert, and it's with this like
, and nobody was going to keepthat lollipop away from me.
You know that sense ofawakening, almost.

(34:46):
And I think your point isreally well taken, Adrienne,
about not assuming a limit inknowledge, and I think part of
it is slowing down from our end.
You know that desire to checkthe box, like you're saying book

(35:09):
read, check.
But allow for organicengagement to grow out of
whatever the activity is.
And that's what's so importantwhen you're talking about social
learning and kids working onsocial engagement is if you're
too focused on what yourparticular plan or goal is for

(35:32):
the session or for the class orfor whatever you've got blinders
on, Because what you reallywant is to see the little spark
of organic engagement and letthat grow, because that's what
you want In a social group.

(35:53):
I don't want to be in charge,because it's what I want is to
do just enough so that thestudents kind of start taking
off on their own.
And I'm there to support and tostep in when needed, and driven

(36:15):
engagement, because so much ofwhat a lot of the kids who I see
get is adult driven engagement.
I remember I had this highschool group that at the
beginning of last year I wouldleave them alone in the room.
I'd go to the other room and Iwould say, okay, you guys are
going to have conversation, andI would be listening and they

(36:39):
would talk a little bit and thenthere would be that awkward
silence and I did not go in andrescue them and they're like you
know, do you think Anna's goingto come in?
No, I don't think she's comingin.
Oh, wow, Well, did you see anymovie?
You know I saw you knowwhatever movie, and then they
would be off again.
It's that, knowing that thingsmay feel awkward, I'm not sure

(37:03):
what to do.
But give me a minute to figureit out.
Yeah, Because so often kidswill figure it out.
Kids will give us a little bitmore If we ask a follow-up
question.
Challenge them, because oursilence can send the message of
I believe you know somethingthat you're going to tell me,

(37:24):
and I want to hear what thestudent has to say.
I don't want to hear what Iwant to hear.
I want to hear what they think,not what I think they could
think.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah, I think that's such an important point and I
just want, like every singlePrenda MicroSchool guide, to
listen to what you just said forthe last five minutes.
Like your job really is to doas little as possible, to like
really let them sit in their ownagency and their own
self-efficacy.
Because when we go in and werescue kids and I'm not saying
we should never help or assistor guide, but, um, as much as

(37:56):
you can really let them act andsolve that, solve their own
problems, because that you'renot always there with them and
you're you're when you'reshowing them like look, I was
here but I didn't do anything.
You solved that problem, youfigured that out.
Then, when you're not there,they have such a greater sense
of self-efficacy and confidenceand that's going to bring their
anxiety levels down, that'sgoing to help their brain

(38:17):
development so much.
So, really, it's sometimes likewhat Adrian you're talking
about, like that traditionaleducation drive to like get the
right answer, finish the task,like do the do the right thing.
I think that makes those momentsmore difficult for us, right?
Like when you're watching achild tie their shoe and they're
struggling.
It's like you're like I can tiethe shoe, I can do the task, I

(38:38):
can get the gold star, likethat's the program we're running
, right, you know.
And so it's like it really hasto not be about that in that
moment and the script that Ilike to run that helps me kind
of like talk myself off thatledge.
When I feel that is, I justthink about, like, where the
cognitive load is landing, likeif I go in and rescue, the

(38:59):
cognitive load has come to me,right, and so I, my brain, is
going to be, I'm using my skillsand things like that.
And when I watch a childstruggle or when I watch a group
of kids be awkward, and I couldeasily go in and like, like you
know, prompt a conversation orget up and get some, get some
language going in there, thatwould be not awkward.
Um, I, I'm, I'm holding thecognitive load and whoever's

(39:23):
holding.
It's like if we go to the gymand I'm like, and you're lifting
weights and I'm like, oh, thatlooks heavy for you, let me, let
me lift it for you, it's likeyou're not at the gym, right, so
we have to have this, this, um,when we're, when we're the
coach at the gym, like the coachspots sometimes, yes, um, but
the coach is not the one likelifting the weights, so it's

(39:44):
just a really important mentalshift.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
Yeah, and we've been talking about games a lot and I
made me think about this pastyear.
My son goes to a learning podand they do a lot of game time.
They have about two differenthours where they're just playing
board games.
And so the I had gone in andthe coach had told me I had to
put Monopoly away.
I just, I just couldn't handleit, because a lot of the kids

(40:06):
are neurodivergent and sowatching them argue and
especially role rules, can bereally hard with kids with
cognitive flexibility challenges, and so because we have to
stick directly to the rules andmonopoly is one of those games
that are really really long andthere's lots of rules, and so
she put it in the closet and soI challenged her.

(40:28):
I was like, why don't we bringit back out?
What?
What for you is souncomfortable?
You're not playing with them?
Why are you so uncomfortable?
They're figuring it out,they're getting loud.
And then you keep mentioningthe phrase social engagement,
and this makes me think of thenervous system and our social
engagement system, and so it'slike also that having them

(40:49):
access that higher sense of selfand that prefrontal cortex and
not get so trapped into thesympathetic, and so I can
imagine watching a bunch ofneurodivergent kids playing
Monopoly.
They're moving in between, youknow, that sympathetic state and
that ventral, vagal state whichis the social engagement, and

(41:09):
it can be really uncomfortablefor the adults to just allow it
to happen.
But why do you think that isLike?
What are some tools thatparents and educators could use
to be okay with their owndiscomfort but then also see
like where you know, likeKatie's saying, not take the
cognitive load and allow thekids to take that on, because

(41:30):
that's where the growth is goingto happen.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
That's a great question and you know, I often
present just on modifying gamesand how to use games, and so I
have a couple of tips specificto Monopoly.
One of them is to try MonopolyDeal, which is a card game of
Monopoly.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
They play that as well.
She replaced it with that.
There's a card game of Monopoly.
They play that as well.
She replaced it with that.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
And what I, what you can.
So here's the thing we do nothave to play a game the way the
directions tell us to.
Well, tell these kids that no.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
So if you know Monopoly deal,what I often will do is we say,
okay, we're going to play forthe first time.
We're taking all the mean cardsout.

(42:15):
So in monopoly deal the meancards are I forget what they're
labeled, but there's.
You know you can steal amonopoly.
Steal a card.
It's my birthday, you owe me $2million, debt collector, all
those questions.
We take them out.
We're not going to play withthe mean cards today.
Show me that you guys can play.
You know we're going to learnthe basic rules and then, bit by

(42:36):
bit, we're going to feather inthe mean cards and talk about
previewing the game and saying,okay, so how are you going to
feel if somebody steals yourboardwalk and park place?
What are you going to do aboutit when it happens?
Here are visual support.
I have feeling fixers that kindof are positive, self-talk,

(42:58):
regulating tools that we put upthat are visible to the students
.
So you have to preview the gameand anticipate what will go
wrong, Anticipate the feelingsof discomfort that you're going
to have and how are the studentsgoing to deal with them.
So previewing is reallyimportant.
Then you can play the game andthen have your you know your

(43:21):
post game.
How did it go?
Well, yeah, he took myboardwalk and I was actually
okay with it.
Great, Good for you.
So, simplifying games.
So we're not going from zero to60 with the game and we're
saying we're going to kind ofinch our way into a game.
Another game you know a lot oftabletop games now the

(43:42):
instructions are 20 pages long.
You don't have to use all thoseinstructions.
You can cut up directions andmake cue cards.
If you don't want to cut up theoriginal directions, you can
copy them and then cut up yourcopy and you make a little cue
sheet.
Or there's a fabulous game,it's pretty new Camel Up.

(44:03):
It's a fabulous game.
It's a camel racing game andtwo camels are racing in the
wrong direction.
It's hysterically funny.
You're betting, but it's a verycomplicated game.
You don't have to play it withall the complicated add-ons and
cards and you can.
Just, we have the power tosimplify a game in whatever way

(44:25):
we think will make it moresuccessful.
That allows students to bechallenged by games, and when
they're challenged by games, andwhen they're challenged by
games, they're going to want tofigure it out, and so then, when
they're playing a game, they'vegot the social component,
they've got the emotionalregulation component, They've
also got the cognitive component, whether it's remembering or

(44:46):
deciding or choosing ornegotiating or noticing.
So they're kind of firing againon that trifecta of mental
process, communication andrelationships.
And so it took me a while torealize I don't have to follow

(45:07):
the rules of the game.
Hello, I guess I'm a littlerule follower, but as soon as I
could let go of that, my kidswere playing much more fun games
.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
Yeah, but how do you get kids that struggle with
flexibility to be okay, to letgo of those rules?
I was listening to a podcastyou were on and you said you
play this game where you changethe rules every one minute.
It gave me so much anxiety, notabout myself, but thinking
about my child, who reallystruggles with flexibility.
I think it would be great, notabout myself, but thinking about
my child who really struggleswith flexibility.
I think it would be great, butI don't know that I again this

(45:39):
discomfort that I have aroundhelping him Is that game called
Flux.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
I think I haven't played Flux actually in quite a
few years.
Flux is a great example.
I think, again, it's in theprep.
Flux is a great example, Ithink, again, it's in the prep.
And so, in addition to thefeeling fixers that are kind of
thought bubbles that say I canhandle this feeling, I'll win
another time, that are visualthey're not me telling the
student that Because often whenkids are upset, to say, oh,

(46:07):
remember, it's just a game, willescalate the upset.
Yes, that does not work.
If we show it to them, thenthey can take it in that
non-interpersonal connection.
So I have and this is all on mywebsite I have the feeling
fixtures and a feeling tracker.
So when kids are playing a game, everybody might have a sheet

(46:27):
that has happy and then mad, sadand worried, one to five scale
with little stickies, andthey're going to show how
they're feeling and we're alldoing it.
So it's not a bad thing, we'reall just like oh.
I might be saying, oh, my gosh,I got boardwalk, now I'm worried
that someone's going to stealit, and they might say, well,
anna, it's okay.

(46:48):
Yeah, you're right, it's okay.
So what you have to do is torecognize all the feelings of
discomfort that are sparked by agood game.
That's what makes a good game agood game is it gives us all
these feelings.
So there's a lot of potentialthere.

(47:08):
But we have to bring in a lotof visual supports that will say
to our students we're going toall handle this together.
We're going to get through thisfeeling of boardwalk and you
know, because you know what, wecan always play again tomorrow.
We can always say do we justwant to trash the game right now
?
If we're playing, I often startkids on cooperative games

(47:28):
rather than competitive games.

Speaker 3 (47:30):
Those are my favorite in this house.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
Cauldron Quest is fabulous.
Cauldron Quest is fabulous.
Cauldron Quest is one of thefavorites and so really
recognizing the feelings andmaking sure that you have clear
conversations about the feelingsthat are involved in playing a
game and I love that you saidpost-game to kind of talk about
it, and then you'll find thatkids will reflect back.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
Now I also know in your find that kids will reflect
back.
Now I also know in yourpractice that you will videotape
or film them and they can watchit back.
Is that something that parentsand educators could use, or is
that something that you wouldrecommend just therapists do?
Because I'm just trying tothink if that would be helpful,
like in my own home or the kidsthat I know that you know
struggle to have self-awareness.

(48:15):
Um, could that be a tool, orjust talking about it might be
more helpful.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
it's a it can be a definite mixed bag, because we
don't want students feelingshamed, right or blamed or to
it's, it's.
You have to be very, verycareful in how you do that you
really want.
If you want to film, you wantto show what they did.
That was great.
Love that Rather than the otherend, I think, because I

(48:43):
certainly wouldn't want to seemyself on video doing something
I don't.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
But then that's still really great, because then they
can recognize when they'redoing something well, Because a
lot of these kids too are verydown on themselves or sometimes
getting stuck into negativethinking patterns, and so by
showing them when they didhandle something well, I love
that so much because it's like,oh, look how I handled that.
And then we're building thoseneural pathways of doing that

(49:07):
again.
Instead of focusing on thedeficits, we're focusing on the
strengths, which I really like.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Exactly, exactly.
So I think that video reviewhas to be done very, very
carefully.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
Yeah, something that I just want to call out for a
second is that, while the gameis kind of like, when we play a
game, we enter this like bubbleof like quasi reality, right.
It's like, okay, this isn'treal life, but all of our
feelings within that game arevery real, right, and so we can
get to experience all of thosefeelings, but in kind of this

(49:39):
like safe bubble, where it'slike we're not really having
this conflict about somethingelse outside of the game world,
um, and I think that that'sreally healthy because it's like
you get to practice, but all ofthe feelings are very real.
My husband tells a story allthe time.

(50:01):
We play a lot of games in ourhouse and some of us in our
family handle defeat gracefullyand some of us do not, and it
does end up causing some strifein our family.
But there's this story that Ithink just one of his friends
told him this Uh, he, he grownup playing Monopoly with his
grandma and his grandma alwaysbeat him and um, then, then he
would like get sad, you know,and his grandma would always

(50:22):
just say it all goes back in thebox, and um, that was really
powerful language for him.
And then one day he beat hisgrandma and his grandma said
congratulations, it all goesback in the box.
And and to just like we havethat kind of language in our
family around, like this is agame, like it all goes back in
the box and like ourrelationships and our, you know,
everything is fine here in reallife, even if we can have this

(50:44):
like practice world of, likecontention and competition, like
we don't have to bring thosethings into our real um, into
our real relationships, not thatthat's a fake relationship, but
that it kind of works both ways.
It's like, hey, remember in thegame the other day when you
felt really frustrated and thenyou forgave this person or you
were able to use some positivemental talk to like kind of

(51:05):
deescalate your feelings.
Let's use that now in real life, right?
So it's such a wonderful,wonderful tool.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
I just love this whole concept of using games in
play and that spotlighting thatyou're just describing in a
moment saying oh wow, right now,reminds me of when you were
successful.
I wonder if you could find away to do that again now that
Sarah Ward idea of same butdifferent, you know, to help our

(51:35):
students generalize.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
Love that Okay.
So how can schools andeducational programs integrate
gaming into their curriculumseffectively, and how can we do
this as parents at home?

Speaker 1 (51:46):
Well, I think certainly opening up options to
playing more games and lookingat a game and thinking you know
this is pretty complicated game,how could?
What's the simplest way I canplay this?
How can I experiment with a newgame?
I think you know there arecertain.

(52:07):
There are certain games thatand game makers that really like
Peaceable Kingdom pretty muchalways has a really good game
and to look at the realaward-winning games and
experiment with those.
I think it's super importantwhen schools have a lunch bunch

(52:28):
or whatever they call it andthey have game club or something
like that, to make sure thathow much are they looking at new
games or how much are theystill playing Hiho, cheerio and
Uno, which, again, there'snothing wrong with those games.
But there are games that aremore interesting and a little
bit perhaps more relevant, likePyramid of the Penguin is a

(52:49):
fabulous game.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
We're going to have to get your game list.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
Yes, do you have a game list?

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Yes, I have one on my website people can download.
But also keep in mind topreview games like we were just
talking about a few minutes ago.
Before you play a game, maybeyou historically already know
what the tricky parts of thisgame are going to be.
But again, to say, ok, so arewe going to play for a certain

(53:17):
amount of time?
Do we want to put a time limit?
Do we need to make sure that wehave crunchy food available?
How are we going to set up forsuccess?
Because we want activities tobe successful.
What we don't want is foreverything to just fall apart,

(53:37):
because then everyone's had abad experience and no one's
going to be back to that gamefor a while.
How can we think ahead?
Think about what do we knowabout this game or this
situation?
Let's try and patch some thingsup.
Let's make sure it's not toohot in the family room when
we're playing.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
So thinking about the sensory inputs too, because you
said crunchy food and thetemperature in the room.
I never thought of those thingsand this is really helping me
because we have a ton of gamesand I value them.
However, with the cognitiveinflexibility of one particular
son of mine, it is not funtypically for anyone else in the

(54:18):
family and it's not somethingwhere, oh, it all goes back in
the box again.
It's caused a lot of challengesto the point where I'm just
afraid to play them because ithasn't been fun.
So these tips I thinkpreviewing them, cutting up the
rules and having them visual andhave them out and then talking

(54:39):
about it afterward I think isgoing to be really helpful and
allow me to open up my gamecloset this week and start
pulling some of the games backout and talking about, like,
what has happened in the pastand going, okay, this is
probably going to come up,because it's come up multiple
times, so what are we?
What's our plan?
I think that might be reallyhelpful.

(55:00):
So thank you so much for thosetips.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
Absolutely.
The other thing you might wantto consider is also having
students draw about how the gamewent, like can you draw a good
time in the game and can youdraw not so good time in the
game?
Because, again, that's creatinga visual support and
encouraging kids to showfeelings in these sketches, to

(55:23):
show their truth, because thatmay give you a lot more
information than if they're justtalking about it or if you're
doing the talking, so everybodycan sketch a picture of how did
you think game night went.

Speaker 3 (55:35):
I love that we are starting to run out of time, but
I also want to ask aboutwinning and losing.
We talked about somecollaborative games, but winning
feels good and our culturetells us that we want to win.
I mean, look around, it's verycompetitive, but losing for some
kids it's really, really hard.
I read a blog post once thathad said you know, ask that,

(55:57):
especially if you're workingwith a young child or playing
with a really young child, youknow four or five, six ask the
child, like do you think you'regonna be able to lose?
If not, like why don't we worktogether and it's okay like we
don't even like call it winningor losing.
So I'm curious about yourstrategies around that.

Speaker 1 (56:14):
Well, one question, one point is if you're playing a
collaborative game, you stillmight lose, right?

Speaker 3 (56:20):
But you're losing together, so that doesn't feel
as you know.
Well, they're losing too, soit's okay.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
Well, and you know, right now I'm developing this
new product called social scales, which are and you know, right
now I'm developing this newproduct called Social Scales
which are continuums, and one ofthe continuums that is in this
product are continuums aboutcompetitiveness.
And so, particularly with olderkids, you know, if you develop
a five-point scale and you couldsay so, where are you right now
going into the game?

(56:48):
How competitive are you feeling?
Knowing this game?
Okay, are you going to feelcomfortable?
Is that where you want to be?
Do you think you could?
Is that?
Or do you think the game wouldgo better if you could be less
competitive and kind of havethat conversation?
No, I want to stay where I am,okay.
So, if you're going to be thatcompetitive, what do you think
could happen?
How are you going to handle it?

(57:09):
You know we can always say tokids if we're playing, just the
two of us, so do you want tostop?
And really, you know, usingthat feeling tracker, how are
you feeling?
I'm really getting worried,okay, so let's manage your worry
.
One time I was playing life witha group and they all had their
feeling trackers and one kid puthis worry up to four and we're

(57:32):
like whoa, let's take a breakbecause Kyler is feeling a four
on his worry.
Kyler, what's going on?
And he said I'm really worriedthat when I grow up someone's
going to sue me for $500,000.
And it's humorous.
I mean, I'm in Marin County soit certainly could happen us.

(57:56):
I mean, I'm in Marin County soit certainly could happen.
But the thing is we talked himdown and we realized that wasn't
a worry for today and so partof it is if you can get students
to really be thinking about,turn by turn, how am I feeling?
Let's take a pause and we'regoing to see if we can get your
worry down from a four to athree, because that's progress.

(58:16):
So really build upping thefeeling meter in the game.
How much are you tracking howeverybody's feeling?

Speaker 3 (58:25):
I love how much we learn from games.
You said life.
A famous story not famous, butin my husband's family is that
he and his brother played lifeall the time when they were
younger and his brother wouldsell him his kids.
My husband wanted like 10 kidsand his brother would like
didn't want kids.

(58:45):
And it's funny because theyhave more kids than we do.
So it's really interesting.
But I love how it really likeopens up for a memories core
memories Like there's.
You know that gets brought up alot and because it's just a
really fond fun memory fromchildhood.
So I love how much games canreally help us learn and grow.
So we are running out of time,so this is a question we ask all

(59:07):
of our guests who is someonewho has kindled your love of
learning, curiosity, motivationor passion?

Speaker 1 (59:15):
That's a great question.
I would have to say my dad mydad had polio as a kid and was
actually in Shriners Hospital inSan Francisco for I think many,
many months and I think as likea six-year-old, and I think

(59:36):
that developed his patience.
So he was an incredibly patientperson and had a physical
disability because of his polio,but he could always get a
workaround.
Always he had straps on strapsand he, you know, he could, he

(59:58):
really no challenge was too bigfor him and he had this Russian
saying and kind of means.
I've translated it to bit bybit, because he always believed
that you could get somewhere ifyou just went bit by bit.
And so I really believe that Ibelieve that learning happens

(01:00:20):
bit by bit and we have torespect that, that we can help
our students get to where theirlives will take them bit by bit.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
I love that my mom always said growing up she said
yard by yard it's hard, inch byinch it's a cinch.
And so that is when we'rehelping kids develop these
mental processes and all theseskills.
Like that is a long harvestgame where you know you really
are looking at helping kids overdecades sometimes, and so

(01:00:49):
keeping that in mind for kids ishelpful and for us as we
progress.
So how can listeners learn moreabout your work?

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
I think the most direct route is probably to go
to my website, socialtimeorg,and I have.
They can sign up for mynewsletter.
I have a weekly newsletter.
Follow me on Instagram.
I think those are the bestchannels.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Great, I love it.
We'll definitely follow you onInstagram.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
Super.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
Okay, awesome.
Well, thanks so much to Annafor coming.
This has been such a greatconversation.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
I've really enjoyed it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you so much.
It was wonderful to meet you.
That's it for today.
We hope you enjoyed thisepisode.
I took so many notes.
Yeah, I'm going to try some ofthese things, katie, when I play
games.
What about you?
Oh, for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
Yeah, I think doing the pre-chat about how we're
going to handle this feelingwhen it comes up, I think that's
going to be a game changer formy kids.

Speaker 3 (01:01:45):
Yeah, I think the post I never, ever thought,
because I'm just so ready forthe game to be done that I don't
think oh, let's circle back andtalk about why this was so
difficult in playing.
So I do think that might help us, though, to get that game out
again.
So I'm so happy that she kindof walked us through that, and I

(01:02:05):
love that this can be appliedreally easily in a micro school
or a learning pod or anywherewhere they can play games, and
hopefully in traditionalclassrooms too, they could pull
out some board games, becausethere's so much learning and
growth that can happen whenplaying.
So if this episode was ashelpful to you or more, please

(01:02:26):
like, subscribe and follow us onsocial at Prenda Learn.
If you have a question youwould like for us to address on
the podcast or on our socialchannels, all you need to do is
email us at podcast at Prendacom.
We would love to hear from you.
You can also subscribe to ournewsletter, the Sunday Spark.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
The Kindle Podcast is brought to you by Prenda.
Prenda is a company that makesit easy for you to start and run
an amazing micro school basedon all the ideas that we talk
about here on the Kindle podcast.
If you want more informationabout becoming a Prenda guide,
just go to Prendacom.
Thanks for listening and don'tforget to keep kindling.