Episode 61: Coaching Kids Through Anger. A Conversation with Samantha Snowden.

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
When I see children suffering from shyness or
perfectionism or anxiety orsadness or whatever the
suffering is, my heart justbursts open and I'm my best self
in those moments.
Yeah, and so that's the workthat I do.
I just bring you know theseemotion regulation tools and

(00:22):
being able to, like, sit with achild and say we can bring
compassion to what we're feeling.
Like let's put a hand on ourheart and go, wow, this is hard,
this is hard.
And they know, when you look atthem, they know that you've
felt what they're feeling Like.
They know you get it.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Hi and welcome to the Kindle podcast where we dig
into the art and science behindkindling the motivation,
curiosity and mental wellbeingof the young humans in our lives
.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Together, we'll discover practical tools and
strategies you can use to helpkids unlock their full potential
and become the strongestversion.
Welcome to the Kindle podcast.

(01:09):
Today I'm here with Katie, myname is Adrienne and we are
talking about anger.
Katie, how do you feel aboutanger?
Do any fun, fun stories?
I'm down on anger.
I don't like it.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
That's emotion.
I prefer to not feel it, but Ido sometimes and so do my kids.
Uh, yes, um, I have beenfeeling angry the last 24 hours
because my air conditioning wentout.
Um, but guess what my kids likeit's, it's my our upstairs air

(01:42):
conditioning, where all of thekids' bedrooms are, and so
they're like coming down andthey're like it's so hot up
there you know like they'redying.
And then, um, my 10 year old.
I hadn't been hearing anycomplaints from him.
And then I walk, I watch himwalk over to the freezer and
open our freezer and he justgets out all of his blankets.
And he literally taken mattersinto his own hands in the middle

(02:02):
of the night and he was like Ijust was really hot, so I just
put all my blankets in thefreezer and then I just came and
got, came back and got them.
He's like just been taking hisblankets in and out of the
freezer.
So that's.

Speaker 3 (02:17):
Yeah, I went to summer camp with a bunch of
4,000 high schoolers in NorthernArizona, and Northern Arizona
is a lot cooler, typically, thanwhere we live in the Valley.
It was not that cool.
It was very hot and we stayedin dorms that did not have air
conditioning, and so I did bringsome fans but, yeah, the kids

(02:38):
were freezing all of theirclothes and then my son had a
fan because I I drove separatelyso I'd have to ride the bus and
he made his own air conditioner.
I don't know exactly what hedid, but because there were
freezers in fridge likerefrigerators inside the dorm
rooms, so he's like everyone washanging out in my room, but

(03:01):
it's a thing to put thingsinside the freezer, I guess.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
I would have never thought of it.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
I feel like they were crispy and not as comfortable.
He's taken matters into his ownhands.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
So I liked the internal locus of control and he
wasn't getting mad, he was justrolling with it.
So I'm excited to talk to ourguest today about emotional
regulation and helping kidsthrough anger and frustration.
So today we're talking toSamantha Snowden.
Samantha has worked with teens,families and adults from all
over the world.
She began her coaching careerwith UCLA, working as a

(03:32):
mindfulness coach and educatorin communities across Los
Angeles.
For the past five years,samantha has been a content
creator and teacher on theHeadspace app and co-host on the
award-winning podcast GoodNight World Dear Headspace and
Radio Headspace.
Samantha holds a bachelor'sdegree in psychology from UCLA
and master's degrees in clinicaland educational psychology from
Columbia University and inemotion science from Mid-Sweden

(03:56):
University.
She's the author of the AngerManagement Workbook for Kids.
Let's go talk to Samantha.
I cannot wait.
Samantha, thank you so much forcoming on the Kindle podcast.
We're super excited to talk toyou today.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, I'm so excited to be here.
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah, so let's get into it.
Can you tell me a little bitmore about your background, like
why is it that you're, what isthe work you're trying to do,
and then why do you do that work?
What's your big, why?

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah.
So my big why goes back to myown childhood and struggling a
lot with anxiety and mostly thatfeeling of loneliness, of being
misunderstood or not understoodat all, because people didn't
have the same kind of baselineanxiety and fret that I just

(04:44):
kind of walked around with.
So I had to kind of struggle tofigure out as a child you know,
what am I going to do with thisnervous system that I've been
given?
And so I journaled a lot.
I remember buying self-helpbooks at like 10 years old.
I would go to Barnes and Nobleand like go buy books.
I remember buying a book thatwas called Women who Think Too

(05:07):
Much and I was only like 12.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
So I was doing the same thing though at a very
young age.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
My self-help mode didn't start until I was like 15
.
So I'm like a little delayed 15.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
A little behind.
A little behind.
So you, so you understand, yeah, like we're trying everything
we can do to to feel resonancewith something when we're
vibrating and that with thisangst or whatever it is that
we've been, the cards we've beendealt you genetically and also

(05:42):
from our family of origin, andso I discovered psychology at a
young age and I knew I wanted topursue it and I've always loved
working with children.
I'm the oldest of four and I'm10 years older than my oldest
sibling, so I was kind of likethe second mom in my house and I

(06:03):
so I've always been like a campcounselor and just around kids
and and loving their energy.
Um, so I started working withkids and youth pretty young I
was.
When I was in college I was atutor and a mentor and I
volunteered as a big sister withthe big brother big sister
organization and from there didyou, yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
We are like totally in alignment.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
I'll just keep my mouth shut.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
No, it's so good to know that.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
I'm not alone in this .
You know that there'scompassion.
We all embody this empathy andcompassion based on what we've
been through, you know, and thenwe want to help others.
So that's like that's my bigwhy, in a nutshell, is just, I
know, you know, when I seechildren suffering from shyness
or perfectionism or anxiety orsadness or whatever the

(06:56):
suffering is I, my heart justbursts open and I'm my best self
in those moments.
Yeah, and so that's the workthat I do.
I just bring you know thesetools that I've found so helpful
and emotion regulation tools,and I've become really educated
in this topic, and so I'm alwaysI mean, there's always more to

(07:18):
learn.
So I'm always reading, I'malways exploring.
But being able to, like, sitwith a child and say we can
bring compassion to what we'refeeling Like, let's put a hand
on our heart and go, wow, thisis hard, this is hard.
And they know when you look atthem, they know that you've felt
what they're feeling Like, theyknow you get it.
So I think to me that's my bigmission and my big, my big

(07:43):
purpose here.

Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah, I love that so much and, like I said I, there's
so much that you said resonateswith me and how I found your
work is your?
Okay, you guys, I'm telling you, if you have a child, you need
to get Samantha's book, thisanchor management workbook for
kids, and I have a lot of bookslike this on my shelf.
I'm telling you the way thisone is written, so one.

(08:11):
So I have three boys andthey're all neurodivergent, all
twice exceptional, and my middlechild.
He is autistic, pda, sosometimes hard for the other
kids to live with because therigidity and black and white
thinking.
And so my youngest child, whenthey were really little, you

(08:34):
know my middle and my youngest,like the middle, could control
everything that the baby didbecause he was five years older,
so everything was great.
Then, soon as the youngeststarted having an opinion and
did not want to do everythingthat you know his older brother
wanted him to do, then thingsstarted to not be as easy
between the two of them.

(08:54):
So the youngest starteddeveloping anger around.
You know, just being poked andbeing told what to do, and
constantly.
And you know, and being toldwhat to do, and constantly.
And you know my middle childwasn't trying to be hard, it's
just everything.
His lens is just very literaland very black and white, and so
that's hard, especially for myyoungest, who has a really high

(09:17):
EQ and a very sensitive nervoussystem, so he's taking on all of
that intensity.
So I found your book and I haveto share this with you before I
get into more questions.
So right at the beginning ofthe book, you're talking about
anger, and I love cause.
Like at the beginning of eachchapter there it's like okay,
who makes me feel angry?

(09:37):
This is how anger feels, andthere's just a little thing that
you can read, you know, or thechild can read themselves.
And so I, my son, was angry andnot that you typically want to
do these things whenever they'redisconnected from their frontal
lobe, but it was going on forsome time and so I could start
to see it coming down and I wasjust like I don't know what else

(09:58):
to do.
My nervous system is startingto be hijacked.
And so we sat actually in thisroom and, uh, I could pull the
bed down.
I'm sitting on the bed.
He was in this very spot andhe's like flailing, like
dropping down to the ground andin this how anger feels.
You basically like the cluesyour body gives you, that you

(10:21):
are starting to feel upset, andyou'll be able to describe them
Um, you know it's angry.
By speeding up your heartbeat,heating you up and making you
feel like you want to break orsmash something.
Literally two seconds beforethat, he threw something and
tried to smash it.
He stopped, looked at me he'slike the book knows me, me and

(10:50):
he was like it knows what I'mdoing, and so it was how and he
still will still talk about thatmoment, about how his anger got
out of control.
But there's so many other thingsin here that have helped him
just rate how he feels and ratehow different situations make
him feel.
And, like I said, I have somany other workbooks that we've
used, especially because of, youknow, my son being autistic and
we've worked with apsychologist and all the things,
and so this has been such ahelpful tool.

(11:12):
So thank you for the work thatyou've done.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
That's amazing.
Yeah, I think you know, justreading, just saying you know
sometimes you want to smashthings.
There's such relief in thatbecause sometimes it can feel,
especially as a child, likeunspeakable to say I want to hit
, I want to smash, becausethey've been told by adults like

(11:36):
this is totally inappropriate,you can't do it.
But to acknowledge the urge.
I talk to kids a lot abouturges and urge surfing, because
we all have urges.
We have urges to do terriblethings sometimes when our
emotions are really big, andjust hearing that and
normalizing that and seeing thatthey're not alone in that, it's
such a relief.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
Yeah, and Dr Dan Siegel talks about the stairway
between the limbic system andthe downstairs brain to the
upstairs brain, which is theprefrontal cortex where logical
thinking and rational thinkingis.
So as soon as I said that, Icould see the baby gate opening
and the stairs for him to beable to start accessing the
frontal lobe, I'm going to guessit's because his brain was

(12:21):
making sense of all these reallybig feelings that he was having
in his body.
And, like I said, we try tovisit this whenever frontal lobe
is online, but sometimes if Ijust don't know what else to do,
I will pull it out to helpmyself calm down too.
And then you talk about theamygdala a lot, and that has

(12:42):
been helpful.
You talk about the amygdala alot, and that has been helpful.
And so I'm like okay, is youramygdala in charge right now, or
is it your frontal lobe?
And he'll be like my amygdalawants to fight you?
Great, but that helps again thebrain like start to make sense.
So, can you discuss theimportance of helping kids

(13:03):
identify their emotions?
And then, what strategies doyou offer to kids?

Speaker 1 (13:09):
You've already named a few.
Yeah Well, a big part ofemotion regulation is naming.
You know, Dan Siegel.
I trained with Dan Siegel.
I was really lucky to be ableto get like a lot of good
quality time with him.
But he talks, he uses this nicelittle rhyme, name it to tame
it.

(13:32):
And anytime you think of theprefrontal cortex is putting on
the brakes.
And when you're I tell kids,when you have a big emotion,
it's like it feels like afreight train going, you know,
500 miles an hour.
The emotion has so much chargeand so much energy.
And sometimes trying to stopthat train is like, you know,
imagining stopping that kind ofweight and mass with your hands,
Like it's just, it feelsimpossible, Right, so we want to

(13:53):
help slow down the train.
There's so many metaphors, I'llI'll mix them all up, but like
helping that train start to toto slow down, without trying to
stop it right away.
And one way of doing that is toname, try to name what you're
feeling Like okay, this isfrustration, this is annoyance.

(14:15):
You know we can kind of getgranular.
The research literature usesthat word, which I really like
granularity.
And so, as we get more granularwith what we're feeling, or
more specific and nuanced um,we're, it's like our we're
telling our brain, we're tellingour amygdala I got you, I see
you, this is what's happening.

(14:37):
And then that cuts down on someof the intensity of the emotion
itself, because the prefrontal,or with kids, I sometimes call
it the wise owl, and then I callthe amygdala the guard dog,
because it's like the part of usthat's looking out for threats
to our safety or to ourwellbeing, or to looking out for
obstacles to our goals.

(14:57):
And so when we see thatemotions are actually useful and
they're helping us to figureout what's most important to us,
what we value, what in ourlives is crucial, then we
understand why we have these bigalarm systems that go off.
So being able to name, beingable to understand and sense

(15:19):
what's happening in the body andgo okay, anger produces this
tightness in my throat and myheart starts to race and I get
like this headache right here.
It also gives children andadults something to focus on.
That's not the thoughts, that'snot the ruminating kind of
cloud of projection about whythis person did this or they're

(15:43):
such a jerk, or all the thingsare direction.
Right, yeah, it's like, okay,that is happening.
But let's go to the body, let'sdo some like, um, what's the
word?
When you're in a hospital andyou have to triage, that's the
way you're doing triage care onyourself.
Like, first, we gotta name it,we gotta take care of our bodies
, and we have to let thatemotion know that it's okay to

(16:04):
be here, that it's not, um, wedon't, we shouldn't try to name
it.
We got to take care of ourbodies.
And we have to let that emotionknow that it's okay to be here,
that it's not.
We don't, we shouldn't try tosuppress it or push it away or
judge ourselves for having it,but we can really allow it to be
here just as it is.
And then they can start to feel.
Like I use a feeling thermometerso they can tell me before,
during and after where they areon that thermometer.

(16:24):
Like when you first came in andyou started doing all these
things we talked about, you wereat a 10 maybe.
Then you started to name thefeeling.
Notice, sensations allow thefeeling to be there.
And now you're at a five.
Look at that.
You came from a 10 to a fivejust by using those tools, um,
and then helping them to see thelike associate the sensations

(16:47):
of ease in their body, how theyknow that they're back to
equilibrium or back to normal,where the emotion has subsided.
How do they recognize thosesymptoms in their bodies and
minds, so empowering them withthat self-awareness so that
they're able to sense clues.
That's why I use the word cluesin the book, because it's clues

(17:08):
that your body's giving you,that let you know where you are
in that intensity and that canbe really, really helpful in
regulating.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yeah, this is kind of reminding me of Mark Beckett's
work Permission to Feel Bracket.
Okay, Bracket, Bracket.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah, and he has an app called how we Feel.
It's so good.
Oh, I don't know about that,because you can get very
granular with the feelings.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
He brought like mood charts to like.
The app is kind of like a moodchart and at every I I did not
grow up with permission to feel,I will say so all of this is
kind of new to me.
I'm like, oh, feelings are okayand I can feel them and they
don't hurt me.
I'm in my late thirties and I'mjust learning this just in time
to give that gift of knowledgeto my kids hopefully, um, but

(17:55):
yeah, just under like takingtime to sit with your feelings
and like really trying to thinklike am I angry or am I
disappointed or am I afraid?
Like to like really getgranular and it really does kind
of put you in this kind of likemeditative state and helps you
get to know yourself.
I will say a little bit better,so that you can really be more
metacognitive of like think, youcan think about your thinking,

(18:16):
think about your feeling, wouldwe say.
Metacognitive means likethinking about your thoughts,
but is there a different wordfor thinking about your feelings
, like meta emotional orsomething I don't know?

Speaker 3 (18:27):
I'm just coining new psychology terms here, don't
mind me, but yeah, it's, yeah,but it's exciting.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
Well, that's why, too , we have kids draw, because
sometimes you can't, dependingon their age, they can't put a
word to it.
Because in the researchliterature I always think about
this U curve that describeshuman development and how our
emotions, the complexity of ouremotions, change as we get older
.
So when children are reallyyoung, the emotions tend to be

(19:04):
pretty concrete, right, it'slike sad, mad, happy, worried.
And then, as they approachpuberty, the emotions start to
get more complex and that's atime of a lot of confusion,
identity formation, like who amI, what am I good at?
How do I navigate the socialmilieu of my school, my groups,

(19:26):
and then on top.
So there's pressure, but on topof it they have the pressure to
self-regulate as their emotionsare becoming more complex and
nuanced.
So, yeah, so, and then it risesagain as they go through
adolescence and, like intoadulthood, their ability to
emotionally regulate gets easierbecause they are more familiar.
They've had more time withnuance now and now it's more

(19:47):
familiar and they can like, oh,okay, that's what that is.
I'm with nuance now and nowit's more familiar and they can
like, oh, okay, that's what thatis.
So, um, yeah, I don't know howold your children are, but you
might see that curve happening.
Um, and that's a big reason whya lot of teens like I have a
stepdaughter who's 16 and shewent through this period.
I think she's just coming outof it.

(20:08):
But every time we asked her, howare you doing, how are you
feeling, what do you want, howdo you, what do you want to do,
she would say I don't know.
That was her blanket answer toeverything.
And we would get so frustrated,my husband and I, because we're
just so.
We're just like we love to digand we're trying to figure
things out.
We talk about our feelings allthe time, and she and she'd just

(20:28):
be like very nonchalant, like Idon't know, I don't know, and
yeah.
And then I learned that I mean Istarted applying everything I
teach, but I'm I realized, likeif we talk about our feelings.
So I would, example, forexample, ask her do your friends
, do you, ever do anything thatannoys you?
And I could see her thinking.
And then she would a fewseconds later say I don't know.

(20:51):
And I'd say, yeah, sometimesit's hard to talk about things
that annoy you about yourfriends, because you don't want
to speak badly of them.
Sometimes, if you think aboutit too much, you you suddenly
don't know what to do about it.
So it's scary to think about it.
And I just kind of explored whythere might be hesitation based
on my own experience.

(21:11):
And as I did that, she openedup, she started talking about it
because it was just anacknowledgement that talking
about difficult things isdifficult, you know and these
are the reasons why I am seeingthis, you and my kids.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
So I have a five-year-old, a seven-year-old,
a 10-year-old and an11-year-old and I can see them
all in these different phaseswhere, like my five-year-old, a
10-year-old and an 11-year-oldand, uh, I can see them all in
these different phases where,like my five-year-old is just
like ticked, like she doesn'tget what she wants.
She was just like I want thatthing Right.
Like clearly obvious she'sangry, right.
And then my 11-year-old, he'llseem kind of like, yeah, off put

(21:49):
.
Or you know, he'll be like kindof like gloomy, sometimes
starting to go through, you know, getting into the teen years,
and I'll kind of read that oneway.
I'll be like oh no, like he'sannoyed, or he's like I'll label
it and then I'll be like howare you doing?
And he'll think about, you know, we've been practicing kind of
talking about feelings more andmore and he'll say things like I

(22:11):
think I'm feeling a little bitmelancholy and I'm just like,
okay, like you're putting your.
He really likes to read, so,like his vocabulary is, is his
literature vocabulary is meetinghis like feeling internal world
now and I'm like, oh, this isso interesting to have you like
have more words, to be moregranular about this and to know
that, like, oh, I really need toget curious about this as a

(22:32):
parent, because I'm misreading,I'm mislabeling and like it's it
.
We really have to have thisdialogue, this, this, uh,
collaborative conversation aboutthis stuff.
Have you heard of the book um,I was just looking it up over
here how emotions are made.
It's by Lisa Barrett.
When I when I read this, I waslike, oh, this kind of like

(22:52):
flies in the face, a little bitof like how these things are
normally talked about.
So I'd be.
If you've heard of her work,I'd love to hear, like, what
your take is on her work.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
Okay, yeah, no, I haven't read the book, but yeah,
if you what?

Speaker 2 (23:07):
is what's explored.
It was a while ago, but it wasreally like.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
That caught your interest.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
The idea that anger lives in a certain place in our
brain and like, or the anger isa certain like combination of
like physical feelings Likewe've talked about, like heart,
like you know, like those things, that that is anger.
She talks about more like howthat is kind of like a social
construct that we give to kids.

(23:32):
It's like, oh, you're feelingthese things.
That's anger, right, because weall agree.
So we think that, like this iswhat's going on.
I guess she's just kind ofswitching it.
It's like, actually, yeah,that's what's happening in the
body and then we name it andthat's what causes that to be an
emotion.
And like she does this reallyinteresting cultural study where
, like you know other there andemotion.

(23:54):
And like she does this reallyinteresting cultural study where
, like you know other, there'sanother culture who has like a
specific word that describes theshame you feel after getting a
bad haircut or something.
It's like we don't have thatfeeling, right.
So it's like it just shows thatlike our language is really
tied to the like our emotionalconstructs as we age.
And I'm just like I don't knowhow I feel about all that or
what I feel, like I'm not aneuroscientist, I'm not a
psychologist, I'm just, like youknow, watching people that know
about all this stuff talk toeach other and, kind of like

(24:16):
push ideas around.
So I just thought it wasinteresting, kind of like not
not the norm, not what I'vetypically read.
So, anyways, somethinginteresting to think about.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
Right?
Well, yeah, and there arecultural differences when it
comes to emotions, how peopletalk about, different cultures
talk about emotions, and then,of course, that has an effect on
how we our relationship withour own emotions.
Like, I remember reading aboutJapan and their relationship to
shame is very different than theAmerican relationship to shame.

(24:48):
So in Japan they'll, they'llteach um, starting in preschool
they start, they teach kids thatshame is an important clue that
we did something you know, notwrong, but we did something that
we don't feel good about orthat might have had a negative
effect on our friends and our um, our society.
And so they talk about shame ata young age and then, when it

(25:11):
happens, it's more of like it'san expectation that this is part
of the human experience.
It's not something I have topush away or I can't talk about
it, right, but in America shameis such a kind of like
horrifying emotion for a lot ofus to feel that we do all kinds

(25:33):
of things to get ourselves outof it.
There's a suppression numbingbehaviors, exactly so I don't
hear a lot of people talkingabout shame or even being able
to say in a conversation wow, Ifeel really ashamed, especially
at work, like in the workplaceor in your family, being able to
pause and go, cause the feelingof shame, the, the, the actual

(25:56):
sensations and the thoughts thatcome with it can be really,
really, um, devastating in thatmoment because it makes us feel
completely worthless.
Um, but if we know in Japan, ifyou know that it's just a
signal letting you know that, oh, I signal letting you know that
, oh, I did something.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
This is information.
Might have been the other umexactly linguistic thing that
I've heard is that, like I think, in french they don't say I'm
angry or I'm frustrated.

Speaker 3 (26:24):
They say I have anger in me, I have frustration in me
, and I think that that's areally helpful, like little
tweak to make it's like youaren't anger you know, just a
little language tweak can helpthem change their relationship
with that exactly in Spanish too, yeah, the Latin languages yeah
we had Richard Russick on fromthe art of problem solving and I

(26:44):
don't remember if we talkedabout this on the podcast or off
the podcast, but we weretalking about the Kumon logo and
it's a face and it just has a,just has a line, and he gave a
really interesting story andsaid that you know, he had a
friend from that culture andthey were no, I think this was
after it was after it was likeoffline, but it's funny, yeah.

(27:08):
And so he was at a chesstournament and he was like I
can't read like that, it wasJapanese, right, I can't read
their um their faces.
And then his Japanese friendwas like, well, the Americans
just like, have all of their,you know everything like right
on their face.
And he said, oh, I can readtheir faces really well, Even
though they all looked like thisyou know, to us because

(27:28):
culturally we're not used tobeing able to.
They're not as expressive.
So he said he was able toidentify and so we were talking
and like laughing or like well,maybe that is a really joyful
maybe we're misreading the kumonlogo.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
I have always wondered about the kumon face.
I've taken photos of it andshowed it to people because I
went to kumon as a little kidyeah, it was like a pre-logo.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Why is it so sad?
And then I went to Kumon andI'm like oh, it's actually very
accurate.
I do feel sad.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yes, yes, it's torture, but maybe helpful.
I don't know, they try toincrease the speed of your
arithmetic, but it's torturousOkay.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
So what are we've?

Speaker 2 (28:12):
been circling around in these things.
But can you think of any otherthings from the workbook that
help kids understand how theirbrains work?
You've talked about the owl andthe wolf.
Like talk through that a littlebit more.
I think that's reallyinteresting.
And then any other likeanalogies or like kind of ways
that you talk to kids abouttheir brain.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, I use a lot of Dan Siegel's tools as well, like
he always uses the hand modelof the brain and talks about the
amygdala and the prefrontalcortex and how we flip our lid
when we have big emotions andthen we need to do certain
things to help bridge thatcommunication again.
So that one I think is isreally helpful for kids.

(28:50):
And then again the guard dogand the wise owl.
So I'll have kids talk about,like, how do you know your wise
owl is online?
What do you?
What does your wise owl sayabout this situation?
And that works really well withyoung kids too, because it's
these are animals that they knowvery well and they're familiar
with.
And yeah, talking about how ourguard dog or our sometimes I'll

(29:15):
talk about the reptilian brainand how reptiles are very
reactive, right, they either gotowards something, away from
something they don't reallythink about what they're going
to do, they're just reactive andhow.
We have that as part of ourbrain, that tendency, and it
kept us alive for many thousandsof years.
So it sometimes gets overactive, you know, or we perceive a

(29:39):
threat that's not necessarily areal threat, like if someone
gives us a look, or they have acertain tone of voice that we
misinterpret.
You know, our guard dog couldget poised to attack because
it's misinterpreting what peopleare really feeling.
So we can start to notice thatand again notice the signs that

(30:01):
that's happening and take a deepbreath, do all the tools we
talked about and then use toolslike reframing, like I use the
question what else could be true?
Just as a simple question, whatelse?
Ask yourself what else could betrue?
My immediate assumption was thatthey don't like me because they
sat with another group ofpeople, another group of friends

(30:21):
.
But what else could be true?
Maybe someone brought gummyworms today and they really want
to get some of those gummyworms.
That was my candy of choice inmiddle school.
But, yeah, you start to likeask them, have them ask
themselves what other possibleinterpretations they can make
and then notice how that affectstheir emotions, because if you

(30:44):
realize oh, it might not be me,you know, we know that kids and
adults with mood disorders tendto over blame themselves for
things that aren't necessarilytheir fault, right, so having
them imagine other scenarios canbe really helpful.
And then relating that to thatbeing the wise owl, and they're

(31:06):
strengthening their inner owland their ability to think
flexibly and not get stuck in.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
I like how that helps them kind of like identify with
the value or characteristic ofbeing wise, because I think that
that's something that they.
That's a really healthy labelto be like.
Oh yeah, I have a deep wisdomin me that I can tap into when I
choose to.
And like feeling that aboutyourself as a little kid is
really powerful, instead of kindof like, oh, you're a little,

(31:33):
you don't know anything liketeaching someone.
Teaching a little kid that theyare very wise is just so
empowering to me.
So I really love that.
And also the guard dog.
I like that because it's like,oh, this feeling feels yucky and
hard and I want this feeling togo away, right, but it's like,
oh, it's actually just trying toprotect me.
And when I realized like thatit's actually a really good,

(31:58):
healthy part of my brain, I canstop like numbing or distracting
myself or just like tellinglike a lot of kids, a lot of my
kids, not other people's kidsI'm sure my kids will come up to
me and they'll be, they'll beinjured and they'll be like can
I watch a show or can I have atreat?
And I'm like no, because we'rejust going to sit here and feel
sad that you hurt your fingerand we're not going to use sugar
screens to teach you this earlyto go numb your feelings with
that so.

(32:20):
I love the caveat.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
You'll learn that eventually Go for it.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Well cause Katie said that this is how she rewards
herself.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
Is she'll like?

Speaker 2 (32:29):
have little pieces of candy.
I've done that to myself.
Yes, it's different.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
So, you're allowed to do it.
I mean, we do that all the time, right.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
I certainly do that for sure.
I think it's fine.
I think it's like the locus ofcontrol, right, is it someone?

Speaker 2 (32:40):
else trying to control you or like you know, am
I the one saying like, oh,you're hurt and you're crying,
and I don't like you're crying,that's making me uncomfortable.
So here's a, here's a treat,here's like a screen to distract
you.
So I'm more comfortable becauseI want to be.
I want to show my kids likeyour feelings and everything

(33:01):
you're going through I canhandle that.
Like I am here for you and likeyour feelings aren't too big,
no matter what you're goingthrough.
Like I can stay calm throughthat, even though I struggle
sometimes.
Full disclosure.
We all struggle.
I'm not perfect, but when I can, um, just demonstrate that to
them.
Like, no, like we can overcomea bruise knee or whatever, like
without this thing.
We can just feel that and feelsad for a minute and we can

(33:21):
cuddle and you know um get overit, move through it, grow from
it.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
Yeah, powerful, a really.
It's huge, a really powerfulstory.
Lael Stone I don't know ifyou're familiar with her work.
She's in Australia and shewrote a book about resilient
kids and we had her on thepodcast to talk about emotional
regulation and resilience andshe talked about imprinting.
She told a story about herdaughter falling and, you know,
getting hurt, and so she justcame alongside her and just sat

(33:50):
with her and her daughter's body, you know, convulsed and did
all the things to process allthis pain.
And then after about 10, 15minutes she looked up at her mom
and said I think I broke my arm.
And Leo was like, yeah, you did, but she allowed her daughter's
body versus automatically,let's go into triage, let's call
the, you know, just allowed herto process that.

(34:10):
And I found that to be sopowerful, because how many times
as parents or adults, we dothis to ourselves, where we're
just like, oh, you're fine, justget up and go Especially if we
were raised that way, andbecause you know lots of general
pack generational patterns butto also give that as a gift to
our kids and what Katie's saying, I think that's so beautiful,
katie.
No, we're just going to sit hereand feel this feeling and

(34:33):
sadness I can handle.
I can sit with sadness.
I actually prefer sadness, andI know Katie talks about Gordon
Newfield and how to like anger,frustration into sadness and
turn your mind into sad.
So that one I can handle.
It's the anger, especiallybecause I have very, you know,
kids with intense behaviors andit is loud and I'm a highly

(34:57):
sensitive person.
I have a really sensitivenervous system so I take on all
that energy and it's so thesadness I can sit with.
It's the anger.
Do you have any suggestions onlike how to help I mean
obviously working through, likea workbook like yours, but also
any other suggestions forparents that can't handle the
crying or the anger or, you know, intense feelings that their

(35:21):
kids may have?

Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
I think taking time to first ofall developing a mindfulness
practice and it allows youconcentrated time every day to
witness yourself just as you are, which is going to increase
your resilience and your abilityto be with all the intensity

(35:43):
that comes up within your ownnervous system but also then
increases your bandwidth foryour children's emotions.
So that is like a muscle thatyou can grow and get stronger in
just with daily practice 10 to20 minutes a day of just a
mindfulness meditation practice.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
Do you recommend like an app or a program or just
sitting still, and I have OCD,so just being able to do
meditation on my own, I can't doit.
I think I have gotten up tolike a minute, which is really
huge for me.
Do you have any recommendations?
Sorry to interject, I'm justcurious.
No, no.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
That's a great question.
Well, I know I mean, headspaceis a great app for beginners and
actually anywhere you are inyour journey, but I really like
this app, too, called HealthyMinds.
It's not very well known, but afew colleagues of mine started
it and it's really nice becauseyou can choose if you want to do
the meditation while you'rewalking, so you can.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
Actually it's adapted to movement if you find it hard
to sit still Because that's howI do a lot of my meditation.
I walk in the morning and it ishard.
It's like sit still and listento the sounds in the room.
I'm like I'm not in a room andI'm not sitting.
So I love that.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah, yeah.
So walking and when you'reupset too, like if your child's
upset and it's really hard goingfor a walk, um, or even pacing
or moving side to side whilethey're talking to you or while
they're emoting allows you toground your attention in your
feet, which can be really,really grounding and settling

(37:17):
because it's something moretangible.
It's a stronger anchor than,say, your breath sometimes I
also, like Kristen Neff talksabout this where you take in a
breath for you and as you exhale, the breath is for your child
and you can just think of theword compassion or I'm here, I
like the words I'm here, I seeyou, yes, and then you breathe

(37:39):
that out to your child yes, Isee you, you're here and feeling
this, and then you, that'sanother anchor for you as you're
listening, as you're trying tostay present in the midst of
that's helping me right now.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
I just all of a sudden start breathing for me
and breathing for you.
What's his?

Speaker 3 (37:57):
name Adrienne Andrew, With those awesome kids books
we just had.
Andrew Newman.
Oh my gosh, have you heard ofConscious Stories, samantha?
No, I'm going to write thisdown, you have to check them out
.
We had Andrew on the podcast.
His work is so good and he doesa what's his last name Newman
Newman, and he does a snugglebreathing meditation at the

(38:20):
beginning of all of his books,and it's I breathe for me, I
breathe for you, I breathe forus and I breathe for all of
those around us.
And at the end of all of hisbooks he has, you know, like a
just a little thing that kind ofgoes over what the story was
about, but you can do it withyour child, and so this one's
about hugs and the hug factory,and so we didn't even just read

(38:41):
this book last night to my sevenyear old it was two nights ago,
and I could tell he was havinga tough day and with emotional
regulation, and so he pulledthis book out and I said, oh, do
you want to read it?
He said no, I just want to dothe hug meter in the back.
I said, oh.
I said where are you in yourhug meter?
And he said I'm in survival.
I said, oh, so what do you need?
Lots of hugs.
And he's like.

(39:01):
So I gave him a hug and he saidI need two hugs for it to even
go up to one.
And so I think we huggedprobably 25 times, and by the
end, though, he's laughing andhe was making up all different
types of hugs, but his books arereally, really good.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
Oh, I can't wait to get that.
Yeah, I feel like we all need ahug meter in our like, on our
wall, like a poster size hugmeter as soon as I pulled in the
driveway today.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
He runs out because he doesn't start school till
next week and everyone else inArizona has started school and
he runs out and he's like I needa hug right now.
I said, okay, I need to put thecar into park first and then I
can give you a hug.
So just helping our kids havelanguage around like what
they're needing, which is likewhat you know, everyone I feel
like in your space is doing, andI'm just so thankful for the

(39:50):
work.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
Like what you know, everyone I feel like in your
space is doing and I'm just sothankful for the work.
Oh, and how empowering to beable to trust that you'll.
You know you won't push himaway or make fun of him or
ridicule him for that, or youknow that you're there and
responsive, like, yes, hugs, I'mhere.
I'm here for that, and itreminds me of an exercise at the
end of my book about forgivingourselves, because so often when

(40:11):
we've gotten angry and we'vesaid something we've regretted,
I mean I remember stuff I'vesaid at 14 15 that I still feel
guilty about.
I've apologized to my mommultiple times, but it sticks
with us, right and it can canhave a negative effect on on the
formation of our If we think ofourselves as a mean person or

(40:32):
Ooh, I can, I can be really meansometimes From guilt to shame,
like Brene Brown talks aboutjust from like I did something
wrong to.
I am wrong, yes exactly, so Iput this forgiveness ritual at
the end of the book, and it's sosimple.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
I haven't gotten to that yet.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
Oh it's, it's good.
I do it all the time in silence, just with a hand on my heart,
and it's may I forgive myselffor anything I might have said
or done, intentionally orunintentionally, to hurt this
other person.
And then you think of the otherperson and you say may they
forgive and release themselvesfor anything they might have
said or done.
And then you say may theyforgive and release me, may I

(41:13):
forgive and release them, andmay we forgive and release each
other.
And it's just this ritual.
Sometimes I'll do it 10, 20times in my head until I can
feel the guilt and the shamerelease.
You can actually feel themoment when it's evaporated
because you've truly forgivenyourself.
So I learned this and then Ithought let me try it with kids,

(41:37):
because a lot of people say, oh, you can't teach kids
self-compassion, they don'tunderstand that yet.
And I was like, no, we're goingto teach them all the tools,
I'm just going to adapt it towhere they're at.
And they just like.
It meant so much to them tohave this kind of you know, when
you're in the midst of a bigemotion, having a ritual or like

(41:58):
specific words, almost like ascript in your head that you say
, can be really helpful becauseit kind of interrupts the
intensity of the emotion.
So you don't have to think orstrategize, which is that you
know higher order thinking thatwe don't really have access to
in that moment.
So having a script, having aritual, it gives you something

(42:24):
to focus on while that emotionis in progress, like while it's
downloading and processing, Isay you are safe.

Speaker 3 (42:28):
And I'll say it out loud too, so that my son, who's
extremely I mean frontal lobescompletely disconnected, he
doesn't even sometimes have fullmemory of that's how flooded
his brain becomes, and so I'llsay you are safe, out loud to
myself, but then he's hearing itas well.

(42:49):
So that is kind of my go-to.
If it's really, really intenseand it's starting to cross the
boundaries from just anger toaggression, you know, into
violence is, which we haven'texperienced that in a couple of
years, because we've done a lotof work with biofeedback and
just helping, you know, even hisnutrition and his gut health
and all the things.
So we've done a lot and he'sdone so much work.

(43:12):
I'm so proud of him.
But if it does get to a place,I you know, you are safe.
You are safe, you know and thenthat just helps me go.
Okay, you really are safe, andthen he's hearing that you are
safe as well.
So do you have specific likereflection exercises kids can
use to, you know, understandtheir behaviors like after the

(43:33):
fact, kind of like what we'retalking about right now, and if
they're just so flooded withstress they may not really be
connected in that moment.
Can you kind of talk aboutwhat's happening in flight or
flight as well?

Speaker 1 (43:46):
Yeah, absolutely so, when we've, you know, perceived
a threat or our goal isinterrupted.
This comes from emotion theory.
So Magda Arnold is a greattheorist who talks about the
appraisal theory, how our brainis always making appraisals
about our environment if it'ssafe, unsafe, potentially unsafe

(44:06):
.
And then we get, we have aresponse, so our amygdala fires,
letting us know that somethingis potentially dangerous to us
or interfering with our goalsand objectives, and then, and
then we have this cascade of,you know, the sympathetic
nervous system response, so ourdigestion kind of freezing our,

(44:29):
our tension narrows.
We, you know, we get all the,we all know the symptoms, so we
have that experience.
So I talk to kids about this,just giving them a basic
foundation of understanding thatthis is human.
We all go through this and wehave the parasympathetic and the
sympathetic nervous system, andand then and you're sorry, I'm

(44:52):
Like what your question was Like.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
how is the fight, fight or freeze involved in
helping kids like reflect on,like after they lose regulation,
Like yeah, how do we help themlike learn from it, the
reflection?

Speaker 3 (45:05):
after yeah and help them understand that state that
they, you know, get to.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
Yeah, yeah, that they , you know, get to, yeah, yeah,
so.
So explaining that foundationof what's happening in our
bodies physiologically and thenhelping them to understand that
there's a moment and to againrecognize when they are that's
why I keep referring to thisfeeling thermometer when they're
go from like an eight to a oneor a seven to a two, so they can

(45:33):
start to recognize thosesymptoms and those clues that
their body and mind are givingthem.
And then using that as a goodtime to reflect, like when they
have come back down and whenthey're ready.
So I'll have parents kind ofcheck in.
You know, it might be an hour,it might be another day, you
know that you take to, you comeback to it another day.

(45:57):
But framing it in a way that isall about learning like this,
really hitting home that this ishow we learn about our
tendencies, our habits, ourpatterns, who we are, what we
care about, um, what's mostimportant to us.
This is the way we learn.
We don't learn just by beinghappy all the time.
Right, we learn from witnessingourselves unhappy or fearful or

(46:21):
worried.
So when it's framed that way,there's more of a willingness to
talk about it again instead offeeling like oh, we have to do
this again.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
I'm in trouble.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
Yeah, exactly Exactly so.
I'll often have parentsdescribe times that they felt
angry and what caused it, likewhat prompted it.
So, getting clear on what theaction was, was it?
Did someone cut you off?
You know, for me it's likealways being cut off on the
freeway, or it's all roadrelated, it's all freeway

(46:57):
related as an adult, but yeah,you like name what, what it was,
and then what the emotion wasand then what the need was.
I think explaining to childrenthat every emotion has an
underlying need, an unmet need,and telling your own story of
how you discovered what you needin those situations helps them

(47:19):
to identify the needs that theymight be having, and I love
using the nonviolentcommunication organizations list
.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
Yeah, yeah, we had someone on from NBC, yet we had
Morris Irwin Jr.
We had him on to talk about NVC, oh cool.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Yeah, so I trained in that when I was studying
clinical psych and I love thatmodality.
I often just send akid-friendly list of feelings
and needs over right away when Ifirst meet with families, so
that they have that up like onthe fridge or somewhere where
they can see it and they canstart to expand their feeling.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
I don't think I've seen that.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
Um because.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
I would love to post that for everyone and on my
fridge and as you're.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
As you're talking, I'm like we always we always
talk to the adults about, oh,it's an unmet need, but not
until this very moment.
I'm like, oh, I should betalking about that to the child
too.
I was just like, oh, light bulb, why have I not thought of that
?
I'm always telling myself like,okay, this is his unmet need
and this is how it needs to befilled.
So thank you for that, right.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then it's.
I'm sure after you spoke tosomeone who has expertise in NVC
, they talk about how it's notabout when we're expressing,
when we end up making a requestor asking to get our needs met,
that we're not making a demand,right?
We're not saying you have to becooperative, you have to be

(48:45):
responsible, right?
It's more like I would reallyappreciate if you would be
willing to show respect in thisway next time, or to show or to
cooperate when X, y and Z ishappening and and you make it a
question like are you willing to?
And then allowing a no to takeplace, right, if, if the child,

(49:09):
or if if it's between two adultsand someone says no, I I'm not
willing to do that and saying,okay, how else can we, you know,
get, how can we help me get myneeds met in another way?
And you and you take it as kindof a problem solving
willingness to collaborate on ananswer.

Speaker 2 (49:28):
You really have to set it up before.
It seems like, especially.
It's like my job as an adult isto take care of their needs.
Their job is not to take careof my needs.
Like it's not, oh, two, it'slike that's not how we want to
parent.

Speaker 3 (49:41):
Um, though many try, it's fine, um, but it's like I
can't get my three-year-old tocare about my needs right, like
through conversation and logic.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
um, so I need to get my needs met a different way and
I think it's like in order, butlike I am here to meet the need
of the child.
So it's like, yeah, there is anunmet need and I'm going to
meet that need orcollaboratively discover that
need and brainstorm a way forthem to have that need met.
But holding those I think.
I think that the needs thing iskind of like a social contract
which we like to set up.
In our micro school we have likea needs conversation right.

(50:19):
It's like every one of us hasneeds and wants and all of our
needs and wants are well, atleast all of our needs are
equally as important.
So like we kind of agree thatin this situation we're all
going to care about each other'sneeds, but it doesn't
necessarily naturally occur thatanother, that a child, would

(50:39):
care about someone else's needs,cause kids don't have that
prefrontal cortex developmentyet that that enables them to be
like oh they, I have this need,they're a human, they also
probably have this need into,like project their own, you know
, like the theory of mind, intolike someone else's situation.
So, um, yeah, but all good, allgood concepts, so helpful.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
Yeah, what you were sharing reminds me of um this
activity I've done with familiesto make a mission statement
like a collective missionstatement together, where I have
a pinnacle.
Yeah, yeah, it's really, it'sreally great.
And this I remember my studies.
I came upon this term emotionculture.
I was talking about likereflecting upon the emotion

(51:23):
culture of your early childhood,like what emotions were off
limits, how were emotions dealtwith?
And then looking at patterns inyour family and seeing areas
where you want to grow and andshift the way that you as shift
the way that you as a culture,as a small, intimate culture of
your immediate family, how youtalk about emotions, how you

(51:43):
react to them.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
But it sounds like both of you are doing such a
stellar job at this.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
I love that language though emotion culture.
We have the knowledge.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Yes, trying and failing every day, failing,
failing forward, um, but I lovethat you're doing well.

Speaker 3 (51:59):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Uh, failing forward that word emotion, culture,
because it just makes it moretangible.
It's like, what is all thisstuff that's going on between
people like?
it's like, oh yeah, that's athing and we can talk about it
we can name that to tame that,and you know, we can, um, begin
to be intentional aboutintentional and a lot more.
Like, uh, transparent, right,it's like.

(52:20):
Oh, when you're like all of theways that humans communicate is
just like so subtle, it's like,oh, I said this and then you
responded this way, but yourtone of voice was like a little
bit like this and your eyebrowswent down a little bit.
So now I think you hate me and,like you know, like all of the
deep, like subtle things, likecalling those things out and
just being able to like talkabout that, which is not a

(52:43):
normal thing to talk about.

Speaker 3 (52:45):
Yeah, yeah, this adds a whole different layer,
because you're not seeingnonverbal text with a period
text.
And I'm coaching my game over.
Oh my gosh, it's so true, I amcoaching ninth grade girls at
church and you know, I had onethat came to me and she's just I

(53:07):
could see her going to dorsal,vagal, shut down, and I'm like,
how much time are you spendingon this thing?
And while I'm talking to her,I'm currently anxious generation
and I'm like trying to give herthe data, but I'm like wait,
she doesn't need the data, shejust needs to be seen and heard

(53:27):
and understood in this moment,and I'm like you need to put
this thing away.
But it's so hard though, and Ithink I I remember someone
saying that they had donestudies and, you know, do
functional MRIs or hook peopleup and they can like see
brainwaves.
And if someone says I hate youto your face, it's very
different than if you say, hey,I hate you over words.

(53:49):
Or you can say, or like the way, if I'm the one writing it
versus if I'm saying it to you,I'm still getting that response
from you.
Even I mean the computer screenI talk about this all the time
Like this doesn't have theenergy that I need, but it's
still.
I can still see your faces,whereas with the phone you know
the brainwaves there's not asmuch activity and that's why

(54:09):
people are not very nice on theinternet.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
Yes, Is my conclusion .
I know, I remember, I'm justgoing to write down that book?
I haven't heard of that.
The Anxious Generation.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
What?
Oh my gosh, you gotta listen toit.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
It's really it has all the.

Speaker 3 (54:25):
It came out like just a few months ago.
Oh good yes.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Oh good Good good, good, what was I going to say?
Oh yeah, it reminds me I waswatching some.
I was watching like a lectureon YouTube and I got halfway
through.
It was long, I think it waslike two hours and I got halfway
through and I was instinctivelyabout to just turn it off and I

(54:50):
thought, wait a minute, whatCause?
I was really engaged, but Ithink I got bored for a second.
So my instinct was to turn itoff and I said what if I imagine
that I'm in the room with thislecture, like I'm there in
person?
I wouldn't just walk out.
I would imagine, like that'srude, I wouldn't do it and I

(55:10):
probably would benefit greatlyfrom staying.
I probably will get a nugget ofwisdom or some knowledge that I
really would like.
And so it made me stay and Iand I felt really good about it
and I remember talking to kidsabout it.
I'm like what if you?
You know, have you ever feltthat urge just to shut something
down, open a new tab or openthis?
And they're like, yeah, all thetime I do that without even

(55:32):
thinking about it.
I'm like, yeah, but what if youtry imagining that you're in
the room with a person, likeyou're sitting across from them
and you're and they're talkingto you.
You wouldn't just turn aroundimmediately when you're bored
and leave, would you?
And they were like, no, but butwe're not in person.
And I was like I know it's anexercise to try to imagine and

(55:52):
like there was, there was such adisconnect with that, like they
just couldn't piece thattogether.
They were just like they tothem.
The world online is sodifferent from the world, um, in
real life.
And I was trying to like bridgethe two and try to see, like
say, you can imagine that you'rereally in person with this

(56:14):
other person, but I think, yes,exactly, they're a real person.
They put in real energy tocreate this talk or whatever
they're offering you.
And then, but when I you know, Inever go on to, or rarely go on
to like threads like Redditthreads or look at comments on
posts on Facebook, but recentlyI've heard so many stories about

(56:36):
how mean people are, and so Iwent on just to explore that
world, I was like I'm just goingto go in with an open, curious
mind and I've just been soshocked by what I see Like just
that people talk to other people.
They know people are going toread it.
They know it's, it's going tobe seen and it's going to.

(56:56):
Their words are going to befelt, but it's like there's a
complete disregard.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Something that will make you feel better about that
is that, like maybe 25% of thoseaccounts are actually robots,
so they don't have the humanempathy.
It really is like we have yeah,we have this tool.
So we do a bunch of socialmedia for Prenda and we actually
have a tool where you can putin a, like, an account and it
will tell you how many of theirfollowers are fake.

(57:21):
yeah, so sometimes when I seelike really outrageous behavior,
the thing- that I like findpeace in is like just telling
myself that person's probably arobot, this person's probably a
robot, that person's probably.
No, it's like someone's, justlike they're trying to get
conversations and like um, likemake this account go viral, or

(57:42):
something like.
They're just like gaming thealgorithm because you'll see
yeah, things go viral.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
Yeah, if it's negative versus positive, which
is another thing, but that's whythis work is so.
So, yes, I mean, I just thinkabout my son.
He was in a really bad dirtbike accident a couple months
ago and he was flown to a localchildren's hospital and they
weren't going to let me in thehelicopter.
They ended up letting me on andall these people, because it

(58:08):
was camping.
We were in the middle of thewoods and the helicopter landed
right in a campsite.
There were campers everywhereand they all have their phones
out recording us.
You know, and they're waving tome and you know, and I don't
know if my son he literally hadno idea who he was Um, really,
really, really bad concussion,and so afterwards, um, I was
looking, I was like, does who,uh, does anyone know who was

(58:32):
there?
Because I saw them recording usand I would love be able to see
that footage and see thepictures.
And so I found it on Facebook.
It was a big group of like90,000 people and I found the
post and they had posted itbefore they found us and just a
lot of people were nice andpraying for him and reaching out
and encouraging and support.

(58:53):
And then someone posted oh, weheard it on the scanner that he
didn't have a helmet on.
Oh my gosh, you guys, I cannot.
People were just tearing usapart as parents.
They didn't even know if he wasalive, if he was okay, and
people were just going at itsaying that we're the worst
parents ever.

(59:13):
The details weren't even trueand so it's just.
I had to stop and go.
Okay, they're robots.
No, I did not say that.
But there was one particularguy I mean cuss words, like just
telling us that we were takinghis taxes.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
I have no idea.
Robots love to swear.
That guy is totally a robot.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
Yeah, robot, yeah, so , but it is.
So I'm like, okay, I had tostop and pause.
And then it's like, okay, youknow, find all the things that
we're talking about, emotionalregulation is so important.
And then I don't know how wegot on the topic on like online,
but I think it's because thisis the world that our kids are

(59:51):
growing up in.
It's really, really importantthat we're looking at how it's
affecting them and theiremotions and help.
Like what you said with theexercise trying to bridge, try
to think if you were in personand they couldn't even do that,
it's like, okay, that to me is aclue you talked about clues of
me to do some work here on inperson, because that is how we

(01:00:14):
evolved and how we were createdand wired.
So this is all brand new andthat's what Jonathan Haidt talks
about is that's why we'reseeing such an anxious
generation from 2010 and on.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
Yes, yes, it is, there's.
So what brings me hope isthere's so much we can do around
this as educators, parents,just role models, non-robots.
There's so much we can do.
And, yeah, non-robots, youcould.
You could Even robots.
We could probably program themto teach that.

(01:00:45):
My nickname in high school wasRobot Heart.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Because I was not very empathetic.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
Oh no, I was going to say please explain that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
And I would do this.
I would do this the robot danceand I would say I am only moved
by empirical data.
So I've grown a lot, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
You played with it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
That's good, it's good that you let it like not
offended.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
You took it on and played with it.
Okay, samantha, we can keeptalking.
As you could see, we, we justgeek out on all this stuff.
We love it with it.
Okay, samantha, we can keeptalking.
As you can see, we just geekout on all this stuff.
We love it so much.
Yeah, so, but this is aquestion we ask all of our
guests who is someone who haskindled your love of learning,
curiosity, motivation?

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
or passion.
Oh man, I'm thinking right nowof my husband.
I mean, we're both nerdy and weboth love trivia.
We go to trivia like nights,two or three times a week
sometimes, but he's, he's alwayscurious.
I'm also thinking of teachers,but I'm I'll just go with him

(01:01:46):
because he's a great guy.
No, but he, he's alwayslearning, he's constantly
research.
If there's something he doesn'tknow, he researches it right
away.
He's.
You know, we have really amazingdialogue about philosophy and
history and I just I'm sograteful to have a partner that

(01:02:08):
it just loves learning as muchas I do, so there's not ever a
dull moment.
How can listeners learn moreabout your work?
So there's not ever a dullmoment.
And how can listeners learnmore about your work?
Yeah, so I do a lot these daysvia Instagram, and my Instagram
handle is anchored, like wetalked about mindful anchors
today, so anchored underscoreSam.
And then I have a website,samantha Snowdencom, and yeah,

(01:02:32):
so between the two I offer, Ipost about the events I'm
leading lots of four toeight-week workshops online.
I'm going to be doing a teachertraining for folks who work
with kids, so bringing toolslike all the ones we talked
about into the classroom, intoyour home, and doing it in
person, so we actually get tohold the books and play with the

(01:02:54):
toys that we use.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
And yeah, so I'll be posting that as well, and you
can grab this on Amazon.
I'm sure there's other placesto grab it too, anger.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Management for Kids, yeah, amazon's the main place.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
Oh, here we go.
Workbook for Kids.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
Love it yeah, Anger Management Workbook for Kids,
Samantha Snowden.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Thank you so much for coming on the Kindle podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
This was so much fun.
That's it for today.
We hope you enjoyed thisepisode as much as us.
If you couldn't tell, katie andI were totally able to geek out
on all the emotions and Katie,what did you think?

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
It was great.
I'm so excited that all ofthese things exist in the world
and can help parents andeducators, help kids, make more
sense of their internal world,cause that wasn't really
happening for me and it's been.
It's been a good life sincethat's happened.
So a little less Katie, robotheart, it's good.

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
And more.
What did it turn into then?
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
The hug factory heart .

Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
I still struggle honestly, but I am at least more
aware I still might be a robotinside.
We don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
Only time will tell.
You're the one that's going outon the internet?
No, I would never do that.
There's good robots too, butwhat I yes, what I got from it
was just all of the people thatare doing this work, and we will
make sure we link all of thebooks, all of the resources in
the show notes, because I thinkthis one we definitely name

(01:04:28):
dropped a lot, but there werejust so many people that.
So that tells you right thatthis is really important and,
like Katie said, it just helpsyou live a more joyful life when
you understand what emotionsare, for that they are here to

(01:04:49):
stay and so let's not fight themor stop them in our kids.
And then what a beautiful giftwe are able to give our kids and
our students to develop in avery emotionally healthy way so
that when they become adults,they can then, you know, keep
giving that gift back.
So if this episode was helpfulto you, please like, subscribe
and follow us on social atPrenda Learn.
If you have a question youwould like for us to address,

(01:05:10):
all you need to do is email usat podcastcom.
You can also go to our website,wwwprendacom, and you can sign
up for our weekly newsletter,the Sunday Spark.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
The Kindled Podcast is brought to you by Prenda.
Prenda makes it easy for you tostart and run an amazing micro
school based on all of the ideasand principles that we talk
about here on the KindledPodcast.
If you want more informationabout becoming a Prenda guide,
just go to prendacom.
Thanks for listening andremember to keep kindling.

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Episode 61: Coaching Kids Through Anger. A Conversation with Samantha Snowden.

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