Episode 64: Trauma-Informed Education. A Conversation with Alex Shevrin Venet.

Alex Shevrin Venet shares how educators can build unconditional positive regard that helps children feel valued regardless of behavior, improving their ability to regulate emotions and engage in learning.

• Trauma affects behavior by triggering stress responses that appear as choices but aren't really choices
• Co-regulation (calm adults helping dysregulated children) precedes self-regulation
• Restraint collapse explains why children often "fall apart" after holding it together at school
• Children behave better when they feel safe, not when they're punished or shamed

More about our guest

Alex Shevrin Venet is an educator, author, and professional development facilitator based in Vermont. She teaches graduate teacher education at Vermont State University. Alex works with educators around the country to strengthen their trauma-informed education practices, with a focus on empowering teachers to create systemic change. 

Connect with Alex

Equity-Centered Trauma-Informed Education

Becoming an Everyday Changemaker

UnconditionalLearning.com

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
When we're under stress, we get dysregulated,
which means our emotions areoverwhelming us, and so I might
look at that kid and say maybethey're dysregulated.
And so this conflict is notabout making a choice to be mean
, but is about I can't handlethe stress that's going on for
me right now.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hi and welcome to the Kindle podcast where we dig
into the art and science behindkindling the motivation,
curiosity and and mentalwell-being of the young humans
in our lives.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Together, we'll discover practical tools and
strategies you can use to helpkids unlock their full potential
and become the strongestversion of their future selves.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Welcome to the Kindled Podcast everybody.
We are talking abouttrauma-informed education today.
Adrienne, what is yourperspective on trauma-based
education?
What do you think?

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Yeah, this is a pretty hot topic.
We just were at a micro schoolretreat and it was like the
number one requested topic washow to handle trauma, how to
recognize it, what do we do?
And then as I startedresearching, I realized, oh, our
micro schools already aretrauma informed environments and

(01:20):
I don't even think these guidesrealize that they're already
helping kids that haveexperienced trauma and, honestly
, those that haven't.
And then when I think abouttrauma, I think about like when
I was younger I did heargunshots a lot, and like in the
neighborhood that I lived in,and so anytime as an adult, a
balloon pops, any kind of reallyloud noise.

(01:41):
My body I have tried so hard toheal this, I've had therapy my
body completely, like starts toshake, I cry, and then the
people that pop the balloon orwhatever feel absolutely
terrible.
But I think it's important forus to understand like it's
nothing that they cause.
It was something that my brainis just telling me that hey,
you're not safe.
So it's just a response that wehave.

(02:02):
Do you have any experience withtrauma or any stories about it
that come?

Speaker 2 (02:06):
to mind.
So I know we've talked a littlebit about this before, but I
think there's a differencebetween like I like the phrase
like capital T trauma and likelowercase T trauma, where it's
like all of these big, intensetraumas like hearing gunshots I
would say it's really intense.
I have not had that sameexperience.
I think that there are.
There are smaller ways that westress the brain, which is

(02:29):
really kind of what traumaequates to, and so I think I've
had lots of opportunities toexperience that Um, but not I
wouldn't say I've experienced alot of capital T trauma, Um, but
it doesn't really matter muchin like the response to either
of those things Right, thingswhich is what we're going to
learn more about today.
Who are we talking to today?

Speaker 3 (02:48):
Yeah, Before I get to that, there are three types of
trauma besides big T and littlet that I would like to address
just before we jump into ourconversation is acute trauma,
and that's what you're talkingabout the sudden intense.
And then we have chronic trauma, and that is just prolonged,
not getting our basic needs met,not getting our psychological,
emotional needs met.
And then there's complex trauma, which is a mix of both and

(03:10):
it's complex, and so it's justreally important, as if you're a
teacher or you're a parent, tobe aware of these things and
then to what we'll learn fromour guest today is that it
really comes down torelationship.
We are talking to AlexChevron-Vernette.
She is an educator, author andprofessional development

(03:33):
facilitator based in Vermont.
She teaches graduate teachereducation at Vermont State
University.
Previously, she was a teacherand leader at an alternative
therapeutic school.
Community college instructorand after-school teacher in the
upper elementary grades.
Alex works with educatorsaround the country to strengthen
their trauma-informed educationpractices, with a focus on

(03:56):
empowering teachers to createsystemic change.
She is the author of thebest-selling book
Equity-Centered, trauma-informedEducation and the new follow-up
Becoming an EverydayChangemaker Justice and Healing
at School.
Let's go talk to Alex.
Welcome Alex to the Kindledpodcast.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
We are so excited to have you here today.
It's great to be here.
Thanks for having me on, ofcourse, so let's dive right in.

(04:36):
Tell us about your backgroundand how you came to the work
that you're doing.
And so in my teaching program Ihad kind of thought, oh, I'm
going to be a public schoolteacher, right, because that's
what they prepare you for, right, that's what they talk about,
that's what my internships werein.
But the job market here inVermont was not super great

(04:58):
during the recession and sopeople weren't retiring to free
up those teaching spots fornewer teachers, and so I started
expanding a little and lookingat some different settings, and
one of the job listings that Ifound the teacher role was
called counseling teacher, andthe job listing said you can

(05:20):
have an education background oryou can have a counseling
background or you can have anontraditional background.
But here's what the job is, andit described a school where
students were there to get theirsocial and emotional needs met,
where teachers werecross-trained in counseling
skills so that they could bepart of that support, where
every student had mental healthsupport, and I thought that

(05:42):
sounded great.
So I ended up working there forclose to a decade and I started
as a teacher.
I later moved into more of aleadership role and I absolutely
loved it.
It was great happenstance thatthat's where I ended up.
It was sort of the small typeof school that is doing a lot of

(06:03):
practices that now we calltrauma-informed education.
But you know, when I startedthat wasn't necessarily a word
for it, it was just this is whatwe're doing.
And so toward the end of mytime there, I was feeling really
invigorated by time that Iwould spend with the teachers at
my school, or if I would go toa conference or, as I did, grad

(06:24):
school, just in teaching otherteachers about some of these
practices.
And I was also interested inwhat are other people doing with
these things?
How are other peopleincorporating these supports
into their settings?
And so from that school Itransitioned into mostly
teaching teachers, which is whatI do now, and really my why
comes down to helping teachersfeel supported in the tools they

(06:47):
need so that students feelunconditional acceptance in
their school environments.
So that's me in a nutshell.
I love it.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Okay, tell us more.
Like how do you definetrauma-informed education?
What does that mean?
Give us a definition.
I know there's lots ofdifferent things floating around
, so, like, what does it mean toyou?

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yes.
So to me, trauma-informededucation are the practices we
use to transform the wholeschool environment, so not just
for students but also for theteachers and for the families
that are related to the schooland the community.
And the trauma-informedpractices are about responding
to those who have alreadyexperienced trauma and making it

(07:33):
a better environment, but alsoabout preventing trauma from
happening inside of schools andrelated to schools, and then
also trying to create practicesthat would make our world less
traumatic.
And that part sounds a littlebit more like dreamy, but I
think a lot of teachers get intoeducation because we want to

(07:54):
build the next generation, wewant to have students who are
engaged in our democracy.
All these like big ideas, andso I just add disrupting trauma
to that right.
How can we help shape studentswho are engaged in making things
right when they do harm, inspeaking up when they see
something wrong, in using powerwisely, all those pieces.

(08:17):
So there's really a bunch ofdifferent components to
trauma-informed education, andwhat I often will say to
educators and other peopleinterested is that it's a really
big project and so no oneperson is going to tackle all of
it, but we all just have tofind our way to tap in.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
Yeah, you said some phrases that really jumped out
at me.
So you ended your backgroundstory with how you came into
this work and really wanted toprovide unconditional acceptance
, which I find profound.
And then also you kept usingthe word respond, and that makes
me think of okay, we want to beadults that can respond to

(08:59):
kids' behaviors instead of reactto their behaviors.
And then you also use thephrase disrupting trauma instead
of react to their behaviors.
And then you also use thephrase disrupting trauma.
So the reason why or how Ifound you was you were on the
cult of pedagogy and you weretalking about trauma-informed
education and I was preparing atalk for some of our micro
school guides.
And, katie, what topic did youdo?

(09:22):
So I did trauma-informededucation and you spoke on.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
You're really putting me on the spot here, Adrienne.
I don't remember what I talkedabout.
I talk about a lot of things.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
I can remember your illustrations, but they went
really like hand in handtogether.
That's why I brought that up.
But so I had like searched theinternet for trauma-informed
education, and your interviewwas so profound to me because I
was like, oh, this is how everyclassroom should look.
This is how I feel like everyadult should have this

(09:55):
information, even if they're aparent or they're a coach, an
educator, and so I, just becauseof all these things that you're
talking about unconditionalacceptance, you're being
responsive to the child, and thebiggest thing is, you're
disrupting trauma I just canimagine what a better world we
would have if we can do thesethings, you know, and starting

(10:16):
where most kids spend all oftheir time in their childhood,
which is in school One of thepieces that is really important
to me in my work is this idea ofbeing equity centered and
making sure that, as we'retalking about trauma in the
classroom, that it's reallygrounded in this idea of equity,
which to me means that everyoneis getting what they need in

(10:36):
order to fully engage in theireducational experience in an
affirming and safe way.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
So not everybody's getting the same things, but you
might get something differentthan me because we have
different needs.
And so that equity centeredpiece of it also is looking at
disrupting things, like you know, tropes that minimize the
humanity of some of our students.
And so I bring all this up,because sometimes, when people

(11:03):
talk about trauma in education,they actually use it in this way
that further dehumanizes someof our students, where they say,
oh well, those students fromthat neighborhood in our school
district, they must be bringingall their trauma to school,
those kids from this racialbackground.

(11:23):
Well, of course, they must beexperiencing more trauma.
So we have to be traumainformed, and to me, that's not.
It's not okay, because it's justadding more and more deficit
onto students who are alreadyexperiencing that deficit
narrative, and so what I askpeople to do is make a shift
from how do I figure out whichkids are experiencing trauma and

(11:45):
then try to, you know, use aspecial behavior program or
something just for those kidsand instead, like I said, it's
about the whole community.
It's about recognizing that wecontribute either to worsening
trauma sometimes it gets causedin schools or sometimes we just
ignore the impact.
But we don't have to do that.

(12:05):
We can also create communitiesof support and safety.
We can also increase thatacceptance.
You know, we can do all thesethings to shift the narrative to
a strengths-based perspective,and so it's important to me that
we make that shift from.
It's not about okay, which ofmy students has trauma and how
do I fix it, but instead how doI fix this world and this school

(12:28):
system that has been traumaticfor these kids and take
responsibility for our role inthat.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
That's what drew me to your work, because our micro
schools are really set upalready in a trauma informed way
and it's not about pointing out, like you said, the individual
kids, but the entire environmentis great for all learners and
all kids and it's you know,having that respect for the
child and not, you know takingyour authority and you know

(12:59):
crossing the boundaries of, youknow control and to see the
little child that you areeducating as a unique individual
, a human that deserves, youknow, respect and kindness and
all the things that we'rewanting as adults as well.
So I I really was drawn to thatand as I was going through the

(13:19):
presentation with our guys,they're like oh, I already do
that.
I didn't realize I are, youknow, I'm already implementing
these things, like in myclassroom, so it was really
powerful.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
All right, let's dig into trauma informed education a
little deeper.
You mentioned that there areseveral like core principles of
trauma informed education, and Iwould just love to know what
those are.
Can you take us through, yeah?

Speaker 1 (13:43):
So some of the principles.
Well, let me back up.
There are a bunch of differentschools of thought about
trauma-informed education andthere are some basic agreements
among most of them about thingsthat are important.
So, for example, every schoolof thought around
trauma-informed education saysrelationships are everything
right.
So we have to build strongrelationships, not only between

(14:08):
teachers and students, butbetween the students, between
teachers and families, betweenfamilies and the community.
You know we have to.
I talk about as a web, right,we have to have this really
strong web of relationships.
That's a big piece.
There is the principle ofempowerment or agency.

(14:44):
No-transcript Trauma can makethe world feel really
unpredictable and stressincreases when we feel like we
don't know what's going tohappen and you have to spend all
this energy figuring out am Isafe, rather than being able to
settle in.
So the more that we can makeschool environments predictable

(15:05):
and have routine, it adds tothis feeling of safety.
And then the fourth thing thatI often focus on is flexibility.
So even with thatpredictability, we want to make
sure that we're being responsive, so recognizing that we all
have hard days, we all have easydays, we all have times when we
need more support or lesssupport and building in routines

(15:25):
to be responsive to that,because most schools are very
not flexible.
They're very rigid in what youhave to show up and do, how you
have to act.
You know what support isavailable, and so that
flexibility piece is huge.
So there's these sort of I callthose the four priorities and
those are things I ask people tofocus on, both in their you

(15:47):
know, maybe your classroomdesign, or if you're doing an
activity, or even as a family,if you're taking a trip and
you're thinking about, okay, howcan I, how can I increase the
predictability during this week?
That's going to be reallydifferent.
And the flexibility and theflexibility how do I make sure
everyone feels connected andsafe with each other and how do

(16:10):
I make sure there's still thatsense of agency?
So those are sort of those fourpriorities, but then, outside
of that, I also encourage peopleto be thinking about these
principles connected to if we'rein this equity-centered version
of trauma-informed education,then we have to focus on things
like making sure that we'rebeing anti-racist and
anti-oppression, that we'redisrupting those harmful

(16:30):
narratives, making sure thatwe're being strengths-based,
making sure that we're being youknow, I talk about being
systems-focused, so not just onwe're going to fix everything if
these individual teachers havea professional development
session, but also maybe theschool policy needs to change,
maybe the structure needs tochange, and so there's those

(16:50):
pieces as well that, you know,just can live around those more
day to day things and make surethat we're keeping our focus in
the right direction.

Speaker 3 (16:59):
Absolutely.
And so how would you say traumaaffects student behaviors,
their engagement, their academicperformance?
Like, how can and and I know wedon't want to point out the
individuals that necessarilyhave gone through trauma, but it
is important to understand thatsome behaviors have you know
they're not in control of,because there could be, they
could have experienced somethingthat is causing those behaviors

(17:21):
.
So are there certain signs thatyou know teachers can look out?

Speaker 1 (17:26):
for yeah.
So one of the things I reallytry to drive home whenever I'm
training like trauma 101 withpeople is that there are so many
different impacts of trauma andyou could be looking at it
right in the face and notrealize it at all.
So you know, of course we mightthink like, okay, a student

(17:47):
who's always crying or is reallydepressed or anxious, maybe
they've experienced something.
Maybe a student who's reallyangry.
But you also could be workingwith a student who is working
really hard to be absolutelyperfect.
They are doing all of theirwork.
They are the most polite kidever in the whole world.
They always are friendly andhelp all their classmates, and

(18:08):
that child could be experiencingtrauma and kids are actually
surviving by doing their best tohide it, and so that can feel a

(18:30):
little frustrating to hearbecause it's like OK, but I want
to help these kids.
How am I supposed to do that ifI don't know?
But what that leaves us with isa couple of things.
One is this idea that traumainformed practices are universal
, right, that we want to makesure everybody is receiving this
sense of care and empowermentand predictability and all these
things.

(18:50):
So another piece to this is thatif we can't actually know
what's going on behind astudent's behavior, then we have
to think differently abouteverybody's behavior.
And there's this question thatI really like.
I picked this up from a reallygreat book called Trauma
Responsive Schooling I think isthe title, but you can fact

(19:12):
check me on it.
It's about trauma-informededucation in rural elementary
schools.
It's really great.
And in that book they talkabout this coach in one of the
schools and this coach had aquestion for when she was
working with teachers where shewould ask them how would you
respond differently if you knewthis behavior wasn't a choice?
How would you responddifferently if you knew this

(19:34):
behavior wasn't a choice?
And I love that because itreally asks us to reflect on
what are the assumptions thatwe're making about any behavior
and then what are our actionsfrom that.
So if I see a kid kick hisclassmate and say you're a poop
head right, like just classic,you know fighting with your

(19:56):
class or something or lots ofthings worse.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
You never know.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
So I have a couple of choices, right?
If I say that student ischoosing to be, mean, that
student is choosing to, you know, violate his classmates,
personal bubble, all thesethings, then how am I going to
respond?
My response might be well, ifhe's making that choice, then
I'm going to ask him to make adifferent choice.
Maybe I'm going to punish himor take away a privilege because

(20:25):
I don't like the choice that hemade.
I'm assuming that he was kindof in control of making that
choice and therefore when I dropdown a consequence, he's going
to connect that to the choicethat he made.
But if I reframe and I say well, what if that behavior wasn't a
choice, then I have to look atit and go well, if it wasn't a
choice, then what was it about?

(20:45):
And so then I might connect itto something like okay, I know
from learning about, you know,trauma-informed education and
child development that a bigstruggle for a lot of kids going
through stress is stayingemotionally regulated right, and
so when we're under stress weget dysregulated, which means
our emotions are overwhelming us.

(21:06):
And so I might look at that kidand say maybe they're
dysregulated and so thisconflict is not about making a
choice to be mean, but is aboutI can't handle the stress that's
going on for me right now.
And so if I give a consequence,that consequence is kind of
going to glance right off of mebecause, like it, there's just
no connection between I feel sooverwhelmed I can't even think

(21:30):
right now, and then all of asudden I can't go out to recess.
What's that about?

Speaker 3 (21:34):
Right Like there's, there's no logical connection
for that student, and so, andespecially can I interject there
, especially if the brain isseeking safety, and then you say
, okay, you can't go to recessand the reason why the child was
behaving in that way is becauseyou know they're again.
We're constantly seeking forsafety and then we take

(21:55):
something away, even more thanguess what.
It makes sense why thosebehaviors are bigger and this
reminds me of Dr Ross Green iskids do well if they can and
there's a difference between acan and a won't.
I have to tell myself that allthe time, because I have a child
with challenging behaviors andlots of dysregulation challenges
, and so I'll just say it tomyself like he would do well if

(22:17):
he can.
He could do well if he can.
He needs you to stay calm rightnow, and that just helps calm
my own nervous system.
Instead of, okay, I'm going totake everything away, I'm going
to you know you no longer haveany toys, because that's not
going to help the situation,because he's not doing it on
purpose.
It's because his brain is notfeeling safe in that moment.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
Exactly so when we have that lens, then I look at
the kid and I say my firstpriority is to help this kid get
regulated and to help them feelsafe again.
And so that might look likelet's take a walk together real
quick.
It might look like, hey, youwant to go cool down for a
second.
It might look like you know, Istill want to say something in
regards to the safety and likehitting your classmate, and so I

(23:01):
might make one sentence in themoment.
But when kids are dysregulatedthey're not processing a lot of
language in that moment.
So you regulate first and then,when you're back in a state
where the kid is sort of feelingsafe, feeling connected,
feeling regulated, then you canfollow through on hey, you
really hurt your classmatesfeelings, that wasn't OK what
you did.
Then you can process it.

(23:23):
So the next question that Ialways get when I talk about
this is well, okay if I knewthat it wasn't a choice.
But what if I picked the wrongthing?
What if actually it was achoice and he was just being
mean and kicking on purpose andjust being a jerk on purpose?
And here's my thing If you getthat thing wrong, if you get

(23:44):
your response wrong and you sayit was a choice and I'm going to
respond as such.
But actually it wasn't.
You're going to make thingsworse because you're going to
make a kid who is alreadyfeeling dysregulated and unsafe
probably feel more dysregulatedand unsafe through your response
of being harsh, dropping downconsequences, whatever it is.
If you get it wrong and youcome in with hey, is everything

(24:08):
okay with you right now.
Do we need to take a break?
Let's all take a minute andcalm down.
Let's come back to this whenwe're in a better space.
You haven't really done anyharm, right?
If it was a choice, that justmeans you're giving the kid a
few extra minutes and you'regoing to come back to it anyway.
And so that's what I encouragepeople to think about is try to
guess on the side of more care,more support, more grace, right,

(24:33):
because that, to me, is alwaysgoing to go better than guessing
on the side of more harshness,more consequences, more you know
, yeah and what you said at thebeginning was relationship.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
Everything should be rooted in relationships.
So if we're throwingpunishments and consequences and
, you know, a harsh tone even,which can be a consequence to
kids, we are just destroyingthat relationship.
So even if you know it's achoice or not a choice and this
reminds me of Dr Mona Delahookwho wrote Beyond Behaviors, and
she talks about top downbehaviors and bottom up

(25:10):
behaviors so bottom up behaviorsare out of the limbic system.
It is that fight, flight,freeze.
You know that's your stressresponse.
And then top down is when thefrontal lobe is, you know,
engaged.
There is some choice there,there is some logical thinking.
But we know for top-downbehaviors that happen, the brain
really is not developed in thatway until a lot later.

(25:33):
So we're talking like four,five, six-year-olds.
The chances are that it's atop-down and it's an actual
choice is very, very slim.
And so what we can do,regardless if it's a choice or
not, is to really attune to thatchild and help their nervous
system get to a place ofregulation and again all rooted

(25:54):
in connection and relationship,and that will then turn out to
help them with their behaviorsas they get older and as their
brains develop more, and so doyou have any more to like?
speak on that, Like the top downversus the bottom up behaviors
yeah, Especially in trauma,because I'm wondering if trauma
disrupts that too and being ableto engage in those.

(26:17):
You know the frontal lobe.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yes, trauma absolutely does disrupt that,
especially very early childhood.
Trauma in that sort of zero tofive range can really impact
brain development.
And then you know, as you growand go through school, trauma
that happens at any age.
It just puts you in thispersistent state of when there

(26:40):
is a threat of danger.
I'm going to go into mysurvival mode, which can look
like those fight, flight danger.
I'm going to go into mysurvival mode, which can look
like those fight, flight orfreeze behaviors.
But for the person who hasn'texperienced trauma recently or
has processed through it,they're not as attuned to those
signs of danger, whereas if youare more sensitive to those

(27:01):
signs of danger, you're justgoing to go into that way more
easily.
So, for example, if you've everbeen in a room and there's all
of a sudden a really loud soundthat happens very suddenly, you
might notice that most of thepeople in the room kind of you
know, just like look over theirshoulder, kind of like what was
that?
And you might notice that a fewpeople in the room jump out of
their skin right.
And it's not because thosefirst group of people were

(27:26):
stronger or better or anythinglike that.
It's because the second groupis just more sensitized in their
brain to protect themselvesagainst a possible threat.
The day is going and it seemsfine, and then all of a sudden
they have booked it out of theroom or they have crawled under

(27:47):
a table or they're yelling atyou for no apparent reason.
It might be that something'shappened that has just sort of
triggered that survival brain,and so that's where this piece
about flexibility comes in tojust recognize that we just have
to meet kids where they are inthose moments and recognize that
it's not that they are pullingus off track or that they have

(28:09):
destroyed our agenda or anythinglike that.
It's just that this is theresponse they're having right
now.
So what do they need in thismoment?
And all of this really bringsme back to this idea of the
structure piece, and what makesme so interested in something
like a micro school is becausetraditional schools are not set

(28:29):
up to allow teachers to actuallymeet students where they are
when they are in survival mode.
If you have one teacher and 30kids right, you are going to
really struggle to meet a kidwhere they are when they need
that extra support, and soalternative structures can be
really powerful for actuallymeeting students' needs.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Oh, it's really hard as an adult that maybe doesn't
have complete control over ourown nervous systems, like we're
experiencing these unprocessedtriggers as well, to like be
able to sit in these as well, tolike be able to sit in these,
especially in a classroom of 30kids, to be able to show up to
these situations as a regulatedindividual.

(29:12):
Do you have any strategies ortechniques you give teachers to
help them stay regulated?

Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah, it's so important because you know it
sounds like you both mightalready be familiar with the
idea of co-regulation, but foranyone listening who isn't, the
idea of co-regulation is thatwhen a kid is dysregulated, they
actually don't magically havethe skills to bring themselves
back into regulation bythemselves.

(29:42):
The way that they learn that isby co-regulating with a
grounded adult.
So the classic example is rightwhen a baby is crying, their
parent picks them up and rocksthem and maybe talks to them or
sings or hums and sort of usestheir soothing to soothe the kid
.
And we have to remember thatthat skill building actually

(30:05):
needs to go all the way throughtill your brain is developed in
your 20s, right?
So the high schooler who isreally upset and can't seem to
calm down, at the end of the dayyou know, as a parent you're
co-regulating with them If yougo outside and you throw the
basketball around together andyou sort of bring in some rhythm
and you're talking in a gentletone and you are sort of just

(30:29):
getting in a space where they'repicking up some calm from you.
And so the thing aboutco-regulation is that it also
works the other way, where ifand you know, I think most
people have experienced thiswhere if you are keyed up, then
the calm person around you isgoing to join you in being keyed
up.
Keyed up, then the calm personaround you is going to join you
in being keyed up.

(30:49):
And so what's difficult as aneducator and, I imagine, as a
parent, is that you have toreally reach deeply so that you
are not joining them.
They are joining you in calm,they are joining you in
regulation.
And so, for educators, the thingI think is most important is
that it's a process and you haveto be gentle with yourself,
because there are going to betimes where you can't make it

(31:11):
happen.
Right, like you're going to besnippy, you're going to have a
bad day, it's OK, you can tryagain.
But to really think aboutwhat's in your toolbox Right Are
there, and it's different foreverybody.
Right, and it's different foreverybody right.
Like some people really likebreathing exercises, some people
really like yoga stretches thatare really quick and I can just
do them while I'm standing infront of the room.

(31:32):
Some people have a littlephrase they say to themselves,
like you were saying with thelike okay, kids do well if they
can.
That's part of your regulationstrategy is I'm going to keep
myself from flying off thehandle by grounding in this
thing I know to be true, and soto build that toolbox, I
encourage educators to.
You know there's so many waysright now, right, podcasts,

(31:54):
instagram, going to therapy,talking with your other teacher
friends about what works forthem, looking at there's a ton
of stuff online, you know.
Go to Edutopia, go to.
You know different educationstuff.
So I think just this it's moreabout keep it as a task that's
important and really think whatcan I do this year to build out

(32:17):
that toolbox?

Speaker 3 (32:18):
Yeah, I was going to mention real quick on episode 13
with Andy Martineau, connectMethod Parenting.
We talk a lot about this andshe gives a lot of great
illustrations to help you accessthat higher sense of self.
Is kind of like what you'retalking about and in my family
my kids are used to me sayingyour amygdala is starting to
hijack my amygdala, like youknow.

(32:41):
They know what that means.
And then that just saying thatit helps their brain start to
calm down helps my brain startto calm down, and then we really
can get to a place ofco-regulation.
What do?

Speaker 2 (32:50):
you say to parents who like there's a big push
towards like independence andsometimes people think that like
attachment or co-regulation orthis like need to provide this
calm nervous system so that thechild can like kind of borrow
your nervous system.
Essentially is like almostcreating a like codependence or
weakness in the child and thechild needs to like toughen up

(33:13):
and like do it by themselves andlike control themselves and
like you know that kind ofrhetoric around that.
But like that's how I wasraised and like before I had my
kind of like parenting shift.
Like that's how I was parentingtoo.
So what do you think about that?

Speaker 3 (33:28):
How do you coach people who are in that space and
, alex, would you say that thatcauses trauma in the brain too,
having that disconnect with theadults?

Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah.
So I think what's important forparents to know is that stress
is a spectrum and there aretypes of stress that are healthy
and help us grow.
And then there are types ofstress that in the research they
call it toxic stress, which cancause trauma and is basically
when the amount of stressoverwhelms the tools that you
have to cope with it.

(34:01):
And so healthy stress mightlook like I'm going to let my
kids struggle with something for20 minutes before they ask me
about it, and I'm going to saywhy don't you try to figure it
out yourself first?
And we all can think of timeswhen we've grown that way.
Right, you have to fall downwhen you're riding your bike, to

(34:22):
learn to keep your balance, allthese things, but you don't
want to have a bike crash thatreally hurts you, right?
And so, as a parent and as aneducator, what you have to do is
, again with this word,attunement, which really is
about knowing and being presentwith the kids be attuned to when

(34:44):
that line is crossing over intothat toxic stress and you can
tell, because you can see kidsnot handling it right when it's
overwhelming the tools they haveto deal with it, when they are
feeling that like survivalresponse and self protectiveness
when they are feeling unsafe.
That's not a helpful kind ofstress.

(35:04):
And I would say that you know,reading up on this idea of this
stress spectrum and reallythinking about how can I just
try to do this balance and again, you're not always going to get
it right, sometimes we're goingto rescue kids too early and
sometimes we're going to let itgo for too long but to just try
to notice and reflect with kidsright like are hey, are you

(35:24):
proud of yourself that youfigured that out, or do you wish
I had helped sooner?
Right, when kids, when kids getold enough to talk about this
stuff, bring them into theprocess.
So I would say that that that'show I would respond to that
concern that you know we, wedon't want to do things just for
you know, this idea thatthrowing you out to the sharks

(35:46):
by yourself is going to build upyour strength is not really
rooted in the science behindstress.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, like not rooted in science.
I think that's been my biggestlike converting factor and like
accepting this, cause my brainis just like so, so focused on
like personal accountability andchoice and like all of this.
So it's like been a big shiftfor me personally to be like,
okay, that wasn't maybe a choiceof the child made, they weren't
, weren't trying to beintentionally mean, like doing
the mental work for me torelabel those things has been

(36:15):
the thing that like enables meto maintain a regulated nervous
system in those moments and Ijust think that's like a really
important shift.
And I think a lot of people outthere like just don't know how
to make that shift happen, causewe're still thinking about our
own behavior and I it soundslike we don't believe in free
will or choice.

(36:35):
Sometimes, when we say this likethat's a little bit of an
extreme.
It's like what we're saying is,when you're in your survival,
like stress response isactivated, like you don't have
access to your best self right,like I can't if you have just
almost been hit by a car, andthen you have to make like a
life, a life altering decision,like you're going to make a poor

(36:57):
decision in that brain state,and that's what we're saying,
like let's understand where thechild is in their body.
So it's hard as an adultbecause it's hard, it's hard to
have empathy for a child who'sin their stress response system
a lot, because as an adult, likeI, have control over my
environment.
I get to choose what I do everyday Like I can.
If there's too much like sensory, like, I can usually change

(37:20):
that you know where, as kidsdon't have a lot of access to
that level of control and sothey're really being thrown into
whatever experiences they'regetting dropped off into and
although we do our best to makethose situations kid-friendly
and things like that, they'restill going to have these
moments where, like, they'rejust in their stress response

(37:41):
system and it's given me so muchmore empathy for them when it's
like, oh, I can feel this in myown body and I know that I'm
not my best person and I cangive myself.
I love how you said um uh, airon the side of grace.
What was, what were your exactwords?
I was so much better than that.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Um, that sounded good , but what you're saying reminds
me of, like the thing I wouldinvite, if you want to build
that empathy even further, isthink of going to the airport
where you have very littleagency and control.
You have to walk through theTSA line.
You don't get to change howslow and fast it is.

(38:18):
You have to follow exactlywhere to go.
If your flight gets delayed,sorry, there is literally
nothing you can do about itbesides just sit there.
I don't know about you, butwhen I walk into the airport,
before I even check in oranything, I'm already in my
stress response.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Yes, and so what you're?

Speaker 1 (38:35):
saying is right.
So for kids it's like being atthe airport all the time,
sometimes, right, they don't getto choose where they're going.
They don't get to choose wherethey're going.
They don't get to choose if theflight's delayed, you just have
to sit there, right.
And so if we think about itthat way of like, okay, am I my
best self when I'm waiting forthis flight and I am going to

(38:56):
miss my connection?
No, right, so just likebuilding that.
Okay, that's where kids are at.
And that ties back to this ideaof agency and empowerment.
You know, the less that we canmake everyday life or school
feel like you're waiting at theairport, right, the more choices
you have, the more that you'reallowed to say no, I don't want
to do that, or yes, I do want totry this thing.

(39:18):
You know, the more control thatwe provide and really build in,
the more we're going to helpdraw out of that survival state
so often.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
I would love to get your take on this, because we're
talking about the stressspectrum.
You talked about disruptingtrauma and kind of attunement
and noticing like how muchstress is too much stress.
So I have a friend she justreturned to the workforce last
week as a preschool teacher.
So she's been at home with herkids for six years and she had a
parent send her this articleand she sent it to me yesterday

(39:51):
and it's called After SchoolRestraint Collapse.
Oh yeah, it's an actual coinedphrase of whenever kids get home
from school and they're losingtheir minds, having big
meltdowns.
So I would just love to pickyour brain on this, especially
in the context of trauma and thecontext of how we can help
disrupt that.

(40:11):
Like, is that okay if everysingle day a child is coming
home?
I mean, it had really greattips.
It had tips about how toconnect and keep yourself calm
and work on yourself first, kindof like what we're talking
about.
But then it did say somethingabout set a plan and have the
child set a timer and they'reallowed to go lose it by
themselves in their room for 20minutes, and I was like I don't

(40:32):
know if that you know, cause Idon't know, I just struggle with
this a little bit.
Cause cause you speak on thatand have you heard of this
before this restraint collapse,even that term.
I'm like, oh my gosh, we'veeven called it this.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
So I would love to you know, pick your brain on
this while we have.
You know, I've heard the termbefore.
I haven't done a lot of readinginto it, but I'm familiar with
the basics of it and it remindsme as well of in the
neurodivergent world.
So autism, adhd, there's thisconcept called masking, which is
when neurodivergent people,including kids, will spend a lot
of energy trying to follow thesocial norms and it takes a lot

(41:11):
of energy and it's veryexhausting.
But the restraint collapsepiece.
I mean, if we follow thisairport metaphor, I'm just
thinking about when I get homefrom the airport, like well,
what, let me ask you, like whatdo you want to?
If you didn't have to take careof anybody when you got home
from the airport, what would youdo with, like, your three hours
when you first got home from ahard airplane journey?

Speaker 2 (41:33):
Sleep, or like eat some yummy food, or just like go
exercise.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
So, like that's your restraint collapse, right, you
just spent all this time notbeing in control, having to nod
politely at the agent while theytold you that it was going to
be another three hours, whateverit is.
And then those times you knowI'm thinking of when it's like
that for me if I'm traveling forwork, I get to the hotel, I
order the Uber Eats and I turnon the TV and I just want to,

(42:04):
like, lay on my back for threehours.
Right, that's the same idea asrestraint collapse, right it's?
You've spent all this energykeeping it together and then you
need to fall apart a little bit.
So this idea of letting the kidgo and just sort of be whatever
that looks like, I think that'sa great strategy, because the
idea is, when other people'sexpectations are on you, when

(42:24):
you're trying to follow thesocial norms, when you're trying
so hard to stay regulated andremember, as a kid you don't
have the same skills as an adultto do that it's exhausting.
And so for a kid to be able tojust exist in whatever way and
not have someone saying, youknow, don't make such a mess
with your toys, not havesomebody saying, you know,

(42:45):
directing what your play lookslike, but what about the
co-regulation piece, you know,and that's where I struggle, of
just having them go experiencethis by themselves?

Speaker 3 (42:55):
Yeah, that's where I struggle, but then also it's
like they're not making a choiceto go be in this environment
all day long.
If I'm booking a flight, I am Iknow that that's coming up,
whereas a child it's otherpeople saying you have to be in
this environment all day long.
So I'm just curious what youthink about that.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
I mean, I think the co-regulation piece versus
having time on your own.
It would again just be anattunement thing, right, like?
Does my particular kid seem tobe helped in their regulation
when they have time alone?
Or is my kid one where we'regoing to snuggle up and watch
Bluey for half an hour before weget into chores and homework or
whatever it is, and so yeah,but I think it's a great concept

(43:36):
for people to be looking at andto be thinking about.
What is that transition fromhome to school?
Thinking about what is thattransition from home to school?
And as a teacher, I think thatsomething we can do from our end
is how can I add in momentswhere kids don't have to be on
so much, right, like?
Are there times of quiet?
Are there times of choice, play?

(43:56):
Are there times where you knowif a kid does want some space
and not having to be navigatingall the social relationships?
Are there times where they canbe, you know, playing on their
own a little bit and you don'thave to share the toy or
whatever it might be?

Speaker 3 (44:11):
So adjust the environment during the day, so
they're not in this state ofchronic stress all day long.
And then they're coming homeand exploding is what I'm
hearing.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
It's like those places in the airport where you
can go and it's quiet and theyhave like comfortable chairs.
It's like we need to createthose spaces.
But I think, um, what I'mhearing you say is like make
sure home doesn't also feel likean airport.
You know, like if you have tobe at the airport all day like,
I'm hearing a few differentthings, like let's change it, so
the airport or school is maybenot so much like an airport, um,

(44:43):
and then when they get home,like let's allow, let's realize
like they need some time.
Oh, I think it's important tohave like high expectations of
kids and, um, but like if theexpectation is that you never
lose your patience or never makea mess, or never get loud, or
like like those are unrealisticexpectations, right, it's like
being the person at the airportwho's like do, like saying all

(45:06):
the things and like deliveringall of those boundaries
constantly, and then like thosepeople are trained to handle
people losing it on them, right,because that's a stressful
environment.
And like it's like we, weexpect that there are going to
be some people who can't handlethat, and not that that's right
or wrong or anything, but likethat's just how it is.
So that's like teachers don'tget that.
Yes, same like training of like.

(45:28):
Here's how to handle, you know,a really upset child.
Like that's not in teacherschool.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
Yes, that's what.
I come in and train them on.
Right, I'm glad you brought upthis word.
I'm glad you brought up thisword expectations, because I
want to circle back to a word Iused at the start which was
unconditional.
So this phrase unconditionalcomes from this phrase
unconditional positive regard,which I didn't make up.
It comes from Carl Rogers, whowas psyched.

Speaker 3 (45:56):
Yes, Okay, beautiful.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
So unconditional positive regard to me is the
foundation of all of this thatwe're doing in trauma-informed
education.
I wrote a definition oftrauma-informed or, sorry, I
wrote a definition ofunconditional positive regard
which goes like this it meansthat your stance towards someone
else is I care about you, youhave value, you don't have to do
anything to prove it to me andnothing is going to change my

(46:21):
mind.
I care about you.
Right?
So that foundation of rightaway, like and I think this is
especially important forteachers and students right,
just starting from a place of,it's a given that I care about
you.
Then, also, moving to, it's agiven that you have value.
Every person in this classroom,every person in this school,
they are valuable, they havestrengths.

(46:43):
You don't have to prove it tome.
This is much harder because ina lot of schools, we're
constantly asking kids to provetheir value Totally.
You know, if you come to class,you have value.
If you do well on thestandardized test, if you are a
good collaborator, you havevalue.
So the shift here is even ifyou mess everything up, even if

(47:04):
you have a terrible day, even ifyou never do your homework,
even if you are mean to people,I am not going to change my mind
, that you are valuable and I'mnot going to stop caring about
you.
Okay, that all sounds nice, butwhat about expectations?
What about consequences?
And, to me, unconditionalpositive regard is actually how

(47:32):
you have high expectations andmeaningful consequences.
Because if a kid feels safeenough to know that nothing I do
is going to change the factthat you care about me, then
they are safe enough to trystuff and to mess up and to keep
trying it, as opposed to goinginto that toxic stress of if I
mess this up, everything isruined.

(47:53):
Right, so that kid who kickstheir classmate and is having a
hard time, if they know that Ihold them in this unconditional
care, then they're going to bemore willing to work with me and
to try out some regulation andto get in a better space and
then to talk about how can wemake this work, whereas if they
think that I am going to kickthem out of the classroom for

(48:16):
the rest of the year or that I'mgoing to stop liking them as a
person, that might then spiralthem out.
Right, everything is over,everything is the worst.
I'm terrible because I had thishard time and my teacher hates
me now right, it just escalatesthings, and so that, to me, is
the root of all of this is thatwhen we have that unconditional

(48:37):
care, it actually allows us tohave higher expectations.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Yes, and it's not.
What I hear you saying is thatit's not that those things, it's
not that we're cool withviolence in the classroom.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
The way I put it is unconditional positive regard
doesn't mean you can just dowhatever you want Like there are
still expectations and thingsbut it means that if you harm
other people, if you're having ahard time, I'm not going to
dispose of you.
You're still valuable, You'restill part of this community and
there's nothing that's going tochange that.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
Which satiates the brain's need for safety, which
allows the prefrontal cortex tostay online, which enables that
child to make a better choiceand to like listen to logic and
reason, whereas, if you like,make them.
There's nothing scarier to achild than feeling like they're
in trouble or they're in thedoghouse or there's distance
between them and a primarycaregiver, because that is where

(49:27):
they get all their needs metand that's something that puts
them immediately into theirstress response system.
I was just teaching a class toa bunch of teens and I was like
what's stressful to you?
It's about stress.
And they were like meetingexpectations.
And I just kept asking why ismeeting expectations stressful?

(49:50):
It's like, well, if you, if youdon't meet them, then someone
gets mad at you or like isdisappointed in you.
I'm like why is it?
Why is it scary for someone tofeel disappointed in you?
And like we just kept askingwhy and they all kind of agreed
that it was like this questionof value, like I need to feel
valued, because value valuetheir safety and being valued.
Right, if a lion were to showup, like who's the teacher going
to save?
Like definitely the kid in thefront with all the answers that

(50:12):
can behave themselves right,they like that child the most.
So not being that kid, not beingliked by a teacher, is not safe
because the child's brain islooking to that, to that teacher
, for safety cues, right.
So we accidentally get like wewant to hold to personal
accountability and expectationsand all of these things that
actually kind of invite us toact in a very harsh or sharp way

(50:35):
.
And then that kind of starts uson the cycle of creating an
environment where kids can'tactually meet those expectations
Because we're assuming thatit's a want, or like it's a want
to, not a, I mean, we'reassuming that it is a choice,
right, and then that puts us inthis um, automatic state of like
, labeling and judging whichescalates our behavior, makes it

(50:55):
so we can't cover.
It's just like a big ball ofcycle.
I hope that, like I feel likewe've- been through the cycle
like three or four times now I'mlike okay, listeners, are you
getting this?
Like it's not about this thingis right or wrong or like
anything.
It's like it's about notgetting into the cycle so that
you can actually address theproblems, set the expectations
and help kids develop the skillsthat they need to meet those
expectations.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
Yes, and, and a big piece of this is self-awareness,
because, as the adult, if we'renot aware of our own behaviors,
our own thoughts, our ownbeliefs about ourselves, our
beliefs about the kids we talkedabout what we're believing in
that moment then none of it all,it all breaks down.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
So it really starts with our own behavior first, and
then we look at the kids'behaviors and how we can show up
for them in a better way yes,and and related to that
self-awareness piece, you knowthere's not a dichotomy here of
you know, okay, well, if the kidwasn't, you know, in total
control, then well then it's allon the teacher to change the

(52:00):
environment.
And if the kid was in totalcontrol, then the teacher has no
accountability.
You know, it all livessomewhere in the environment.
And if the kid was in totalcontrol, then the teacher has no
accountability.
You know it all lives somewherein the middle.
And even if a kid is in a placewhere they were dysregulated
and that's where their choicesstemmed from, you can still work
with them on reflection.
So, like one really simplething that I've done with kids
who maybe had a blow up duringthe day or something else went
really wrong, is we'll draw atimeline on a piece of paper and

(52:23):
it starts at when I woke upthis morning and it ends at
right now.
We're sitting and making thistimeline and we mark up the
whole day.
You know we put on there okay,here's when you kicked Johnny's
chair.
And then we go from when I wokeup to when I kicked Johnny's
chair through now what are allthe things that happened.
And so they might say, okay,well, when I woke up, you know I

(52:45):
was supposed to have oatmealfor breakfast but I was running
late, so I just grabbed aNutri-Grain bar and I don't
really like Nutri-Grain bars, soI didn't eat the whole thing.
And then I was on the bus andsomeone was annoying to me, and
then we had math and I hate math.
And then when Johnny made aface at me, that's when
everything's fuzzy in my brainand I know that I wasn't

(53:06):
supposed to do that, right.
And so then what we can do issay, okay, now let's go back and
let's circle places that youcould have made a different
choice, but let's also circleplaces where somebody else could
have made a different choice orwhere somebody could have
supported you in a different way.
So then that allows them to go.
Okay, like you know, dependingon their age, maybe it's I

(53:28):
needed to have my alarm earlier,or maybe it's I needed dad to
wake me up 10 minutes earlier,maybe it's hey, I wonder if dad
could buy me different cerealbars so that I want to eat the
whole thing.
Maybe it's, oh, like in thismath part.
I know that I've already talkedabout this with my teacher.
I was supposed to tell herbefore I got overwhelmed Right.

(53:48):
So even though in that momentthe kid was in survival brain,
you can still build out thatreflection and that's really
powerful.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
We could do this as adults, Exactly.
Oh my gosh, when my behaviorsstart to get out of control.
This would be really helpful.
I want to print out time-lapse.
I just put it on my desk sothat I can go okay, this is why
I'm feeling this way and this iswhy I have so much stress on my
body.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
It's also super valuable as an empathy mechanism
here to realize that, like thekid's not losing it over that
one thing One time I know I'vetold this story so sorry, but we
were on the way home and mydaughter was like it was bedtime
, we'd had people out too lateand it would have been a busy
day and someone had given usmilkshakes or something and hers
didn't have a cherry on it,some very little thing, and she

(54:36):
started losing it because shedidn't have a cherry.
And we were starting to getlike like my narration in my
brain sounded like I can'tbelieve she's so entitled or
she's so ungrateful for thewhole milkshake that she's
having, that she's focusing onwhat she doesn't have and I hate
that idea.

(54:57):
I don't want to raise a kidthat's like that.
So I'm going to get super sharpand I have to correct this
behavior right.
And then I didn't, don't worry.
I remembered that she was notcrying about the cherry, but she
was letting out the stress ofevery injustice and stressor
that she had experienced thatday.
And this was just heressentially restraint collapse,

(55:17):
um of her giving it, giving inthat's kind of not, but not a
good phrase, but like it was toomuch, like in that moment it
was too much right and so itwasn't really about the cherry
and it didn't mean anythingabout her moral character
development.
It just meant that she was doneand she needed her mom to wrap
her up into her favorite blanketand put her to bed and not be

(55:38):
mad at her, you know which iswhat happened, but and that's so
related have you all seen theidea of the window of tolerance?

Speaker 3 (55:48):
Yes, adrienne talks about this a lot, dr.
Dan Siegel.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
Yes.
So it's the same idea, right,that on another time your kid
may have had a missing cherryand gone.
Oh well, that's too bad, I wishI, I wish I had the cherry.
But in that moment her windowof tolerance was too small for
the size of that stress.
And so, even though the stressseemed really small, her window
of tolerance was like eency,weency, right, so like it

(56:11):
overwhelmed her.
And it reminds me a lot again.
Whenever we talk about theseconcepts, I'm always thinking
about what's the version of thisfor us as adults, so we can tap
into that.
So the one I always use when Italk about window of tolerance
is if you've ever gotten a nicefresh cup of coffee, you're
walking out of the coffee shop,it slips in your hand and it
drops on the sidewalk.

(56:32):
Sometimes that has happened tome and I'm like that's too bad,
I'm going to go get a new one,or I don't have time, whatever,
I'll go to work.
Other times, when I've droppedthat coffee, it is the end of
the universe, right.
It's like this is the laststraw.
I cannot deal with this,everything is wrong.
I can't believe I dropped mycoffee, right, and so it's that

(56:53):
exact same situation.
It doesn't mean that I don'thave skills as an adult, but it
means that my window oftolerance was just too small for
that stress, and so, again,just putting ourselves in those
moments to go.
What I needed when I dropped mycoffee was not for someone to
tell me well, you can affordcoffee.
Why are you so mad about it?
Lots of people don't get tohave coffee like exactly what

(57:14):
you're saying.
What I needed was, in thatmoment, to use my
self-regulation or to havesomebody with me.
Go, hey, it's okay, we can getanother coffee.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
It's fine.
Yeah, and that reminds me, ineighth grade we had a tire fire
right down the hill from ourschool and fire was literally
dropping from the sky.
Kids were running every.
I mean it was insane, and it'sa kindergarten through eighth
grade, so it was a lot ofstudents, a lot of teachers, so
it was a lot of students, a lotof teachers, things like there
was fires just starting all overlike campus.

(57:46):
It was pretty a very traumaticevent.
And I remember I had a brotherin first grade and I was in
eighth grade and I was just likeI need to go with my brother, I
don't want him to go on the bus, like I need to go get him and
I'm running and my backpack wascompletely filled with books and
papers and folders and itmust've been open and I'm like

(58:07):
running down in front of theschool and it opened up and
there were just papers and booksflying everywhere and in that
moment my window of tolerancewas this big and I remember just
like, by the time I got to hisclassroom, his teacher even
though it was chaotic and I'msure it was super chaotic for
her her window of tolerance wasbigger and she was able to just
wrap me in her arms.

(58:33):
It's okay, here's your brother,like everything's going to be
okay.
And so I'm just so thankful toMrs Hinkle for that moment,
because it was a very, verytraumatic event.
And I want to circle back wherewe talked about.
So, with trauma-informedenvironments, we're talking a
lot about the adult and ushaving this mindset.
I mean, we talked about thiswhole conversation, but then you
know so, web of relationships,power and agency, predictability

(58:55):
and flexibility, want to likewrap up this talk about
trauma-informed education andhow teachers can start applying
you know these concepts tocreate a more you know,
accepting environment in theirclassrooms.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
Yeah, so you know there's so many entry points.
You know one teacher might hearall about this and think you
know what I need to really workon communicating that
unconditional acceptance to mykids.
Another might really bethinking about those four areas
and going, okay, I'm really goodat that predictability, but I'm
not so flexible and so let mesee how I can build that more in

(59:34):
.
Another might connect back toyou know what I said about we
want to have trauma not becaused in schools and be
thinking about, okay, some ofthe ways that we cause trauma in
schools are, you know, when welet a bullying dynamic go on too
long, or sometimes even in ourcurriculum, if we're teaching

(59:54):
outdated or biased informationand that is causing a kid to
feel badly about themselves ortheir culture.
And so, because there are somany different entry points,
what I really encourageeducators and parents to do is
to really just reflect on whatis the piece that I just want to
pick up and start with, becauseto make trauma-informed change

(01:00:18):
in our school system it's goingto take everybody.
It's going to take a lot of workat different parts, right.
It's going to take schoolboards making policy.
It's going to take schoolleaders using different hiring
practices to get you knowteachers who want to carry this
forward.
It's going to take curriculumwriters and change in
standardized testing all thesedifferent things and so, because
you are one person with onelife, there is only going to be

(01:00:41):
so much on your plate one life.
There is only going to be somuch on your plate.
So where do you feel excitedand empowered to start?
And so I often just encouragefolks to spend some time with
some of the resources I havebooks you've mentioned some
other really great booksthroughout this conversation and
scholars who are writing aboutthis stuff.
There's YouTube videos, allthese different things.
So spend some time with it, dothat reflection and then just

(01:01:04):
think about where do I want toget started and then just keep
revisiting it and I'll kind ofpull our corner to make a change
together.

Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
This has been such a great, great conversation.
Thank you so much.
You mentioned so many thingsthat were new to me and I'm
excited to go okay, because I dohave a child with big, big, big
emotions and feelings andsometimes it is hard.
I talk about these things allday long, but sometimes it's
hard to actually embody that inmy parenting.
So, thank you, this is going tohelp me be a better parent.

(01:01:35):
So I really appreciate it and Ihope our listeners, you know,
feel value um and feel thatthey're valued too, like we were
talking about.
So this is a question that weask all of our guests who is
someone who has kindled yourlove of learning, curiosity,
motivation or passion?

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
Oh, great question.
My mind just immediately jumpedto my.
I'm going to forget if it waswhich grade in elementary school
, but I want to say it was MissPirelli in maybe second grade
and that was when we starteddoing.

(01:02:13):
Did you ever do bound bookprojects where you would write a
little story, but then reallyit was just like they bought a
fancy little book for you todraw it in and it just really
sparked my excitement aboutwriting and about reading.
And I still have those littlebooks and now that I have
written books of my own I canlike really trace it back to

(01:02:34):
elementary school and having myteachers sort of build up my
identity as a writer.
So that has absolutely sparkedmy love of learning.
I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
How can listeners learn more about your work?

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
So I have a website, unconditionallearningorg, and
the best way to engage with mywork is I have written two books
besides the ones that I wrotein second grade, and so those
two books are Equity-Centered,trauma-informed Education, which
really talks about all theseprinciples and ideas and things
for the classroom.
And then the new one, whichjust came out this year, is

(01:03:09):
called Becoming an EverydayChangemaker, and that was
written because a lot of peopleread the first one and said I
want to get started with all ofthis, but there's so much to do.
How do I really make thesechanges if I feel like I'm just
one person, or maybe in adistrict where this isn't
popular, how do I get started?
And so the second book is moreof a guidebook for making change

(01:03:30):
, so I recommend reading themboth together, but there's also
lots of links on my website forother short articles, podcasts,
episodes and things like that.
And yeah, I would love toconnect with everybody.
Love that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
Thanks so much for coming on the Kindle podcast.
This has been an amazingconversation, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
That's it for today.
This was such I mean, we saythis at the end of every episode
this was a really awesomeepisode.
I learned so much from Alex.
I'm so thankful that she cameon.
What about you, katie?

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
Yeah, that was really cool.
I think she put kind of adifferent look on it, a
different spin than I've usuallyheard, so it's really
interesting to hear herperspective.

Speaker 3 (01:04:12):
Absolutely so.
We hope that you can take thesestrategies and tips and apply
them in your classroom or inyour home or on the field, and
so if this episode was helpfulto you, please like, subscribe
and follow us on social atPrenda Learn.
If you have a question you'dlike us to address, leave a
comment and email us atpodcastprendacom.

(01:04:32):
You can also join or you canalso subscribe to our weekly
newsletter, the Sunday Spark.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
The Kindle podcast is brought to you by Prenda.
Prenda makes it easy for you tostart and run an amazing micro
school based on all the ideasthat we talk about here on the
Kindle podcast.
If you want more informationabout becoming a Prenda guide,
just go to Prendacom.
Thanks for listening andremember to keep kindling.
Thank, you.