Season 1 Top 10 | #3 Rest. Play. Grow. A Conversation with Dr. Deborah MacNamara - KindlED

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone, Welcome to the Kindled podcast
with me, Katie, and my lovelyco-host, Adrienne.
Adrienne, what episode are were-releasing today for our
summertime highlights?

Speaker 2 (00:12):
This was another favorite.
I seriously I say that everyweek of our summer re-release
party or whatever we want tocall this.
This is episode seven rest,play, grow a conversation with
Dr Debra McNamara of theNewfield Institute.
It was such a greatconversation with her to really

(00:35):
help parents, educators, anyadults that has interactions
with a young child, tounderstand what their attachment
needs are.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, absolutely, and like their brain development
too, I feel like when I readthis book this was one of the
most life-changing books I'veever read.
It's completely flipped myparenting style on its head and
probably like saved my childrenfrom years of future therapy.
So thank you, debra McNamara,and the Neufeld Institute for
getting this information out toparents, and I seriously don't

(01:11):
know what I would be doing rightnow if I had never read this
book.
It has been so amazing and Ilove the Neufeld Institute.
I feel like every other thingthat comes out of my mouth is
something I've learned from them.
So big fan and so grateful forthem.
What was your favorite partabout this episode?

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, just understanding the difference
between a developmental approachto children versus a
behaviorism approach to childrenand, kind of foundationally,
why we still treat children inways that, now that I've had the
paradigm shift, it makes nosense to me.
However, it does make sense ifyou look into the history of it

(01:49):
and our culture, and so I lovethat we dove into that a little
bit and again, just to helpunderstand the developmental
needs of kids.
Yep, for sure.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
All right, let's get to it.
Episode seven Rest, play Growwith Dr Debra McNamara.
Hi and welcome to the Kindlepodcast where we dig into the
art and science behind kindlingthe motivation, curiosity and
mental wellbeing of the younghumans in our lives.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Together, we'll discover practical tools and
strategies you can use to helpkids unlock their full potential
and become the strongestversion of their future selves.
Welcome to today's episode.

(02:37):
We are so excited we have DrDeborah McNamara on, and she
wrote this incredible bookcalled Rest, Play, grow.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
So, Katie, have you read this book?
This is like my favorite book.
I'm so excited.
I'm like I feel like I'm goingto like a concert.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
And I was.
I was totally kidding with thatquestion, Cause I knew that you
love this book.
But why do you love this book?

Speaker 1 (03:01):
I had such an incredible experience with this
book because when my kiddos wereyoung I didn't understand any
of this whole relationship,brain development stuff.
I just had read books that saylike be super strict and be
consistent with consequences.
And you know, your job as aparent is to discipline and like
draw these really hard lines.

(03:21):
And I was doing that.
I'm like man.
It's just a lot of contentionin my house and I don't like who
I'm becoming as a person andI'm not seeing that it's very
effective.
And so I, you know, stumbledinto all of these books, one of
which was rest, play, grow, andit just went through all of the
developmental stages and likewhat we should expect to see,
and that helped me kind of putto rest all of my like my kids

(03:45):
should be doing this or this ismy job.
It just helped me reframe allof that and my, my second son
was just going through thisphase where he could.
He was not attaching to me.
He was like two or three yearold and he was just not having
it, and so reading this made meunderstand what was happening
and helped me totally reframehow I was parenting him.
So we are super excited tointerview Debra McNamara.

(04:09):
She is a clinical counselor anddevelopmentalist.
She's the author, like we said,of Rest, play, grow, making
Sense of Preschoolers or anyonewho acts like one, and the Story
Plane, a children's picturebook.
She's on the faculty at theNeufeld Institute.
She's the director of Kids BestVet Counseling and she presents

(04:29):
on child and adolescentdevelopment to parents and
professionals internationally,and we cannot wait for this
conversation.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Let's do it.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Dr McNamara, welcome to the Kindled podcast.
We're so happy to have you.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm delighted to be here.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
So, before we get started, I know we read your
biography, but I would love foryou to tell us a little bit
about yourself and your personal.
Why for the work that you do inthe world?

Speaker 3 (04:58):
Well, I think there's many whys, but perhaps the most
important is I came to this asa parent.
But perhaps the most importantis I came to this as a parent
when I had children.
I was already a counselor andteaching, but there was
something you know and embeddedin attachment and developmental
material.
But there's something abouthaving your own children and

(05:18):
faced with a temper tantrum orresistance or discipline and
really having to translatetheory into practice.
So that's what brought me to mywork and I think the underlying
mission or purpose I have is totry to make the world as good a
place as possible for mychildren and future generations.
It's just that's my reason fordoing this work.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
I can really resonate to that and that's why I do
this work as well, because Ifeel like a weekend start with
the kids, especially that zeroto six years age.
Think about how the world trulywill change by the time those
children become adults.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Okay, we're going to dive rightin.
At the very beginning of yourbook, you explain why it's

(06:02):
understandable that parents seekout tools and techniques to
deal with children's immaturebehavior.
As a parenting coach, that'swhat I get a lot of questions
about.
People come to me oh, what toolcan I use, what strategy can I
use?
But then you say the problem isinstruction won't help a parent
make sense of a child.
Instead, we need to understandthat the child.

(06:23):
We need to understand thatchild from the inside out.
This was incredibly profound tome because it describes my own
parenting journey of needing theright tools.
So now I just have learned tobe with my kids and really
embrace their behaviors as partof their development at all the
different ages and stages.
So can you please define thedifference between behaviorism

(06:45):
and developmental theory anddiscuss why behaviorism is still
kind of the norm?

Speaker 3 (06:51):
Yeah, well, thanks, this is well.
This really underlies, I guess,the whole book and our approach
to parenting in our culturetoday, right?
So we inherited a very strongbehavioral approach, which is,
you know, we grow up having theright lessons or consequences,
rewards or punishments that ifwe could somehow teach a child

(07:12):
how to be mature, that isultimately what we need to do as
parents is to be responsiblethis way.
So it comes from the best ofintentions and we inherited
parenting practices that arebased on this belief that you
teach maturity.
But the reality is is we allknow people who had lots of
wonderful lessons, ourselvesincluded.

(07:34):
We often know better than we cando, and the reason for this is
a fundamental shift inunderstanding human development
and the human being, how wefunction, how we operate, how we
grow, and that is inbehaviorism, which is a couple
hundred years old at least.
There was an eclipse.
There was a key ingredient thatwent missing that underlies

(07:59):
human development, and that isthe role of emotion and the role
of instinct.
We go hardwired with emotion,emotions to scream when
frustrated that push us toscream when we are frustrated.
Frustrated is a hardwiredemotion.
It's, in all species, an alarmresponse when we feel separation
or scared or there's somethreat, you'll have a huge alarm

(08:21):
response, a response to connectand to pursue and to care about
other people and other thingsand ourselves.
So we come hardwired with theseincredible emotions and these
instincts that move us and in abehavioral framework there is no
room for that.
It's all about what we see onthe surface and how do we change

(08:43):
what we see on the surface.
However, a developmentalistsays well, what's driving that,
what's going on and how do wetake that performance or emotion
or development and move ittowards maturity?
What is it that we have toprovide?
That only really we can providethat helps move that child

(09:07):
towards better.
You know, responsible, sharing,impulse, control, empathy,
consideration, having courage,being resilient.
What is it that we must do tosupport the child developing
that way?
Because there's an inherentbelief in a developmentalist
that these things are not taught, but they're grown.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Grown.
I love that.
So why do you think inbehaviorism that there's not
room for these emotions, thatwe're trying to stop those
emotions?

Speaker 3 (09:40):
I think there's many reasons for that.
Part of it is the founders.
I think their own relationshipwith their emotions likely drove
this.
It's a very masculine way oflooking at the world through the
head and through logic.
It's like something got missedhere in terms of emotions being
invisible, more associated withfemale, weaker, those kind of

(10:04):
beliefs, I think, surroundingemotions really eclipsed it.
We fell in love with the head.
You know, descartes came alongand I think, therefore I am, and
you know this separates us.
And then what do we find?
You know, 20 years later, youknow, antonio Damasio, a well
known neuros, neuroscientist,wrote Descartes' error.

(10:25):
We don't think, therefore weare, we actually feel.
And then the whole place goesaround feelings.
And so it pushed science.
This finding with technologyand understanding the brain and
development pushed science tolook at emotion, things they
couldn't see and measure easily,consciousness and this role in

(10:45):
development.
And what they found is that, ohmy goodness, it is the
birthplace of development.
And so why was there an eclipseof the heart?
Because it's invisible and hardto talk about and not valued.
I think those are some of thebiggest.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
And I think along the way, we've become afraid of
these emotions because they'reuncomfortable, um, and if we
don't have a good relationshipwith their emotions, it does not
feel good.
I mean, just the other day, mysix year old, he was happy as a
clam, totally fine.
And then he wanted to dosomething and I said, okay,
before we clean up or before wedo what you want, what do you

(11:29):
think we need to do?
And he looks on the floor andthere's magnet tiles all over
the floor and immediately he wasjust like no, like an angry and
upset, and I just stopped.
So I got down to this level andI said hey.
I said does this feel good to beyelling and screaming?
And and he was like yeah, and Isaid doesn't he goes?
No, can we make this into agame?
I said yes, and then we turnedinto play and we were.

(11:51):
We were I mean I don't know weshould be throwing the magnet
tiles, but we were throwing theminto the box and immediately he
had a shift right back out ofthat.
You know, uh, that really upset.
But I wasn't afraid of hisemotions and I feel like so many
parents become afraid of theseemotions.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yeah, I think so.
I think that's really well said.
I think the fear is thatthey're never going to stop.
They're never going to stopbeing grumpy, frustrated, the
tears, oh my goodness.
They're never going to want toactually go to bed, brush their
teeth, eat their food, and Ithink we get panicky inside and
we get alarmed because we feelwe're not responsible if we
can't do all those things.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
Right.

Speaker 3 (12:29):
I think you're right.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
It seems like there's kind of a societal pressure to
have your kids, you know, beobedient and do all the things
and be able to controlthemselves and and have this
strong sense of inhibition andand it's just not
developmentally appropriate.
It's not developmentallydevelopmentally normal to see
that in young childrenespecially.
And then I think the thing thathas been so mind blowing to me

(12:53):
about your work and all of theresearch in this area is that it
is actually feeling, thosefeelings, that leads to
development.
Right, the society is kind ofobsessed with independence and
confidence and pushing your kidsout into the world and we're
actually kind of creating thisproblem by doing that instead of
really focusing on the rootcause.
That leads me to our nextquestion.

(13:15):
Here In your book you talkabout attachment seeking
behavior as like, or just thebrain's need for relationship,
really as a type of hunger, andI'd love for you to go into that
idea.
How is the brain's need forrelationship and connection a
hunger, and what is happening inthe child's brain when they're
seeking that?

Speaker 3 (13:37):
Beautiful question and reframe.
I was just going to say yourpoint about if we can get to our
feelings, we can grow.
So well said.
And if you get that and youunderstand that and that
translates to your parenting, itshifts everything.
It becomes the axis whicheverything shifts in your
actions to the child, how yousee a child and how you focus.

(13:59):
So no, it's beautiful.
When it comes to hunger, we havemany kinds of hunger, but the
greatest task of a parent is toinvite our children to rest in
our care, where our greatesthungers are obviously for food
but also for relationship.
And the hunger for relationshipis actually more significant

(14:19):
and more important fordevelopment than that of food.
Food was actually meant to fallinto that caring relationship
and my new book called Nourishedwill address that whole
relationship between food andhunger for food and hunger for
relationship.
And so, in the context ofcaring relationships, we're
meant to have our needsdelivered, whether that's for

(14:42):
food or safety, a sense ofmeaning, a purpose.
So the hunger for connection isa hardwired emotion.
Above all else, we are primedto pursue and to seek proximity
from those that we are attachedto, whether that's a teddy bear
at night or a parent or agrandparent, your teacher, your
brother, your sister.
You know protecting, protecting, um.

(15:04):
You know the insects on thesidewalk, as my kids used to do
no, don't step here, this is anant, or they'd have funeral
services, dead bugs on the onthe sidewalks and stuff.
They were very attached.
There's a hunger forrelationship.
It's not just to it's, it'syoung children see the world is
full of living things and sothey are very attached to that

(15:24):
and the brain is primed to keepthat in the topmost place of
attention.
So it essentially is seekingcontact and closeness all the
time, unless there is a delivery, a generous delivery, where a
child can rest in the care ofthose that are responsible for

(15:45):
them, and there's a fundamentalshift that happens in the brain.
A still point, a resting point.
It's kind of like having yourbucket of attachment.
You can take it for granted,it's like a buffet, it's like,
oh, I'm full, I can't take itanymore.
And then what happens is thebrain shifts gears.
It shifts attention out ofattachment and food seeking and

(16:05):
all that kind of stuff and itmoves into exploration, into
being able to feel vulnerably.
It moves into a relationshipwith the child, with themselves,
into play, and so you can'tgrow unless you are released
from your hunger for connection,because it frees your attention
up to pay attention, to focuson things that actually grow.

(16:28):
You like play or understandingyour inner emotional world.
So that's why relationshipreally matters.
It's what it brings to thebrain.
It brings that resting statefrom where growth comes.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yeah, when we're withholding or like demanding
independence from kids insteadof overwhelming them with our
support, like our attachment,there's a great.
How do you guys say this at theNewfield Institute?
It's something like the pursuitneeds to be.
You need to provide moreattachment than is pursued.
How do you tell me that?

Speaker 3 (16:59):
That's exactly it.
The pursuit must be greaterthan the, the oh, you had it, no
, no, no.
It's a beautiful quote.
It's Gordon's quote.
It's um, you want to providemore than is being pursued First
of all.
That's part of it.
And the faith must be in theprovider and not in your pursuit
of connection.
So there's two separate things.

(17:20):
There is that we must be verygenerous, or, if we can't
provide, be generous in invitingthe tears of upset or sadness
that might come with a promiseto connect, and that the faith
in the provision of care andattachment must be in us, not in
the child's pursuit of us, notin their commands, their demands
, their constant questions orconstant queuing us up to take

(17:41):
care of them.
Their pursuit must be answeredin a generous way, with us in
the lead.
That's really the key point.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
I've heard lots of people say that you should never
do something for a child thatthey can do for themselves.
Can you kind of address that?

Speaker 3 (17:56):
That's a behaviorist coming back from God knows where
right.
That's a long time ago.
That might be ahundred-year-old sentiment.
To be honest with you, that's abehavioral route.
So the idea, of course, wasthat we push independence.
That didn't understand the rootsof development being based in
relationships.
There was this feeling oftoxicity around dependence

(18:19):
because it looks so differentfrom the final product that
people wanted to get to thisgrown individual.
It's the same as I love whenGordon Neufeld says you know,
it's like the apple seed looksnothing like the apple tree, and
yet we're not barking at theapple seed to grow up and hurry
up and stand straight, andthat's not OK and we're going to

(18:41):
, you know, tie you back or youknow.
There's an inherent belief thatif you create the conditions,
if you provide for what isneeded for growth, that seed
knows its potential and where itcan go, but it can't get there
on its own.
There's something inherent tothe individual that nature
provides.
There's the individualthemselves, as they grow into
teenage years and become moreresponsible for themselves.

(19:03):
That also dictates growth andwe have an incredible role to
play, especially in those earlyyears, in creating the
foundation and the roots fromwhich the growth comes.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, I think a lot of people look at kids and we
have this problem quote unquoteof delayed adolescence where we
see a lot of people in theirtwenties still very dependent
and still very they haven'treally um they're, they haven't
stepped into their individuallike responsibility, and I think
a lot of people find that to bea large problem and I would

(19:35):
agree.
But that that kind of puts usinto this reactionary, forceful
mindset where we have to forceindependence earlier, cause you
can't let that happen to yourkids, right?
And what we miss is that thepathway, like the goal, is not
the problem.
Of course we want independent,confident, capable kids.
Like the goal hasn't changed.
It's just that the researchshows that that's not the path

(19:58):
to get there essentially.
Is that accurate?
Yeah, that's not the path toget there essentially.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
Is that accurate?
Yeah, that's exactly it.
I remember doing research forRest, play, grow and finding
that piece of research done bythe Pew Research Center in the
US Number one I think it waslike 95, 96% of parents
interviewed said independencewas the primary goal and most
important factor in raising achild.
So it's with good intentions.

(20:22):
We want our children to realizetheir maturity and their
potential.
However, we inherited abehavioral viewpoint on how we
get there and we don't have adevelopmental one, and that's
where the confusion is comingfrom.
You have to teach.
The belief in behavior is youhave to teach, you have to
sculpt, you have to push, cajole, reward, force, and that's

(20:44):
usually a knee-jerk reactionthat gets escalated when kids
are perceived to not bedeveloping or failing to mature.
They can get stuck.
We can all get stuck.
However, it comes back to whatare the conditions?
We need to feel vulnerablefeelings, we need to be anchored
in strong, caring relationships, we need to play and we need to

(21:07):
find that relational rest, thatanswer for our deepest hunger,
so that all of these otherthings are possible.
But it seems so simple, itseems so invisible.
You know, the more you push,well, at least you get some.
If, if you say you know, make achild have manners or do
worksheets, at least you have anoutcome there.
Right, but where's the?
Where do you get your outcomesin play or in building

(21:29):
relationship?
This can take time.
This can take a lot of time tosee the fruits of it, a lot of
patience.
If you're a gardener, you knowand you grow, grow things.
You have a relationship withdevelopment.
You have a relationship withthe patients.
That's required to grow things.
But we don't even live on theland anymore.

(21:49):
We don't even have arelationship.
Our kids don't even know wheretheir vegetables come from half
the time, and so we've reallylost this developmental
framework that used to shape ourculture and how we saw each
other and what we used to do.
It wouldn't feel normal to push, uh, you know, 100 years ago it
just in many ways, I think.
But today it's really, reallyramped up and it's everywhere.

(22:13):
We've become huge pushers whenit comes to children's
development and it's backfiring.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
And we live in such an instant culture.
It's just like we went instantand that's why I think
behaviorism is still prevalentin today's society.
Can we shift a little bit intothe brain development and how we
help with this with ourchildren?
So we know the prefrontalcortex, you know it's slower to
develop, takes a pretty longtime, and in the prefrontal

(22:41):
cortex we have the executivefunction which is responsible
for helping us, you know, payattention, organize, plan,
prioritize, do all these thingsthat we expect a two or
three-year-old to do, eventhough they don't have the
developmental capacity to dothat yet.
So can you tell us a littlemore about the prefrontal cortex
development and the role itplays in allowing feelings, and
then also what effects it has onthings like executive function

(23:06):
and inhibition, and maybeexplain a little more about what
inhibition is as well?

Speaker 3 (23:10):
sure, yeah, I think if we got this as parents first
of all, it would transform ourdance, you know, our caretaking
with our younger kids.
In fact, that was a lot of thefeedback that I got from Rest
Play Grow when I wrote aboutthis in the chat in early on in
the chapter is that they're justnot like us.
Preschoolers have a distinctpersonality.
They don't think twice, theydon't have a pause button, they

(23:32):
have no impulse control,self-control.
The consequences are lost onthem.
They might tell you well, Iknew better, but I just forgot.
If they have a particularfeeling, it comes right out of
them and that feeling couldchange within 30 seconds and it
would be another one.
They don't really tell a lie.
They live in the moment.
And so what is this a functionof?

(23:52):
It's a function of a brain thatcan only experience one feeling
, one thought, at a time.
The prefrontal cortex is notfully developed.
It takes five to seven yearsfor the frontal parts of our
brain to come online, whichgives us the capacity to think
twice.
Pause, have a filter before youspeak.
They start to be able to tell alie and keep a secret.

(24:15):
No preschooler keeps a secret.
You tell a preschooler secret,it's out their mouth in another
minute.
But this capacity for impulsecontrol is an incredible
developmental miracle.
That happens when the brain andthe child, the brain, has
sufficient rest, when it hassufficient support for growth,
it will start to wire up theconnections so a child can have

(24:37):
mixed feelings and mixedthoughts and you'll start to see
it in the.
In this threshold of five toseven, sometimes even at four
and a half, you see littleglimpses of it where they might
just go.
Oh, I'm so frustrated and wejust shake and shudder and
there's kind of this paralysisand you see that they're not
lashing out, they use theirwords.

(24:57):
It's like a miracles happenedand they've remembered
everything you've said up untilthis point.
But it's not developmentallypossible until, uh, this, this
um integration in the brain fromtop to bottom, left to right
hemisphere, comes into fruition.
And you can't teach it, youcan't force it.
The more sensitive your childmeaning, the more reactive and

(25:20):
stirred up that they are throughthe senses to their outside
world, will probably require alittle bit longer period of time
for brain development, becausethe brain has to wire around the
sensory signals it receives andso, again, you know it's, it's,
it's, it's a miracle.
When it happens.
You're just like, wow, theyjust seem to be less reactive,

(25:42):
they seem to be a little bitmore, they seem to remember, and
it's like what happened.
There's that poem by you know,robert Fulgram everything I
learned in kindergarten, um, andit's not Gordon you follow.
He says you know, it's not inkindergarten that taught you all
these things.
You know how to share, how tobe a good friend.
It's actually the fact thatyour brain develops so you're
more fit to be around otherpeople without them lashing out,

(26:04):
being mean or preoccupied withyourself, self-absorbed, I mean.
Preschoolers are hilarious.
They would fit thecharacteristics of most of our,
um, you know, personalitydisorders, behavior, but it's
got nothing to do with thisorder.
Their brain is just notdeveloped.

(26:25):
They don't have any impulsecontrol.
I just oh, my goodness, itwould change our dance.
It doesn't mean, though, and Ireally want to just emphasize,
that we don't say to him, them,him or her, um, you know, use
your words.
Uh, you know, brothers aren'tfor hitting.
You know, I know you'refrustrated, right, we can

(26:47):
acknowledge where they're at.
We can, you know, take the leadthrough difficult circumstances
doesn't mean it's a free forall by any means.
It just means that, while we'relaying the foundation for what
is civilized conduct.
There isn't an expectation thatthey can actually meet those
outcomes until five to seven, orseven to nine for more
sensitive kids.

(27:08):
It's the age when readingstarts to take off.
Why?
Because the brain is integrated.
You get lying, you get secrecy.
They're ready for school.
They're capable of work.
It's not always about play.
Chores are much more likely tobe received and appropriate
because they're built for work.
Then they can delaygratification.
They're ready for morework-based stuff at school.

(27:31):
Although we shouldn't reallythrow too much at them, they
really benefit more from play.
So it's a wonderful, miraculousdevelopment in the brain.
The prefrontal cortex kicks in.
Finally, just the last thing.
The reason why the brain, theprefrontal cortex, um, kicks in
it.
Finally, just the last thing.
The reason why the braindevelops this way is because it
allows the child to see theworld one piece at a time.

(27:51):
They pick up a rock, they lickthe rock, they throw the rock,
they do a million things with arock and you'll see them just
blast through that rock and theyjust they're absorbed in it and
then, when their brain has saidI got it, that's a rock, the
rock is gone.
Then they're on to grass andthey're exploring the ground,
the brain come and the worldcomes into view, one person at a

(28:15):
time.
That's why you know they do.
They don't do threesomes, theyonly do one person at a time.
They have one parent.
The other parent comes in,they're like you go away.
I'm locked into my relationshipwith this one singular person.
The world comes in one view ata time, one thing at a time, and
the brain says thank you verymuch, I've got it.

(28:37):
Let us work Locked in when thebrain is capable of mixing
things together so that they'renot they there's because they're
separate enough.
Then the brain says, okay, nowwe can bring them together, now

(29:01):
they can conflict, now it's.
It's a beautiful developmentaluh uh, you know um pathway, but
we just don't, we don't haveinsight into it.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
So pulling that, that beautiful nature example into
behavior, then they, a child,can feel frustration, and that's
one thing that they're feeling,and they can also feel
compassion and love, like I lovemy brother, I don't want to
hurt him, but then they can'thold these two things at the
same time.
So if they're feeling love,then that's what happens, and if

(29:34):
they feel the frustration, thenthey get.
The brother gets a hit maybe,but then as we allow these
feelings and we have thisintegration, that's where we get
inhibition, where the secondthought I love my brother slows
down the hits right and then wecan.
We can get some better control.
But before that, thatdevelopmental phase putting a
kid in timeout or punish like aconsequencing them talk about

(29:57):
that a little bit.
How do you handle thosesituations before they're
developmentally appropriate?

Speaker 3 (30:02):
You touched on it a little bit either get more
alarmed because there's moreseparation, they now feel a

(30:23):
sense of a lack of invitationfor who they are, and so that
that creates a huge alarmresponse which then basically
serves like a straight jacket onall of their emotions so that
just paralyzes them, like alarmcan just paralyze you, so it
exacerbates those emotions.
But I mean, you know and itcomes back to what you said
earlier is is, if we see thechild as being immature, then we

(30:45):
use our relationship to resolvethe issue of immaturity.
I can't let you do that.
I'm going to hold on to that.
We're going to do somethingdifferent.
We'll talk about it later.
Brothers aren't for hitting.
No, I can't.
You know this is not going towork.
You know this is not going towork.
You know the consequences.
Yes, there's oftentimesconsequences to maturity, but
they're usually for us.
I'm not going to bring out 1000piece puzzle and expect my

(31:09):
child to do it with me and notthrow it everywhere.
Okay, that's the last 1000piece puzzle we do together.
You keep that little nugget toyourself, but oftentimes
consequences for us.
Or you know, I took my child tothe supermarket on an empty
stomach and, wow, that was not a.
You keep that little nugget toyourself, but oftentimes
consequences for us.
Or you know, I took my child tothe supermarket on an empty
stomach and, wow, that was not agreat idea, you know.

(31:29):
Or I should have maybeforewarned my child and got some
good intentions before we wentto the park and said listen,
we're going to go to the park.
Here's the deal.
When we're leaving the park,I'm going to come, let you know,
and then we're going to go, butthere's no fussing and fart
when we go.
That's just the way it is inthe park.
We come, we go.
Can I count on you right,because I'm not chasing you
around the park to go.
This is what comes with thepark.
Can I count on you?

(31:51):
Okay, all right, and thenyou've already got ahead of the
problem, so you're not usingconsequences and adversarial
approaches.
Do we have to take the lead onproblematic behavior?
Oh, yes, we do.
But how do we remain in a placeof relationship while being
caring and firm, taking the leadto compensate for what is a

(32:15):
very immature and aggressivetime of life without impulse
control?

Speaker 1 (32:22):
So let's talk about aggression a little bit.
I'd love we've touched onfutility and how kids just
experience so much futility, noanswers in their life and that's
naturally logically frustratingfor them.
In your book you talk about theroundabout or traffic circle of
futility.
Can you take us through thatidea and kind of describe what

(32:43):
the parent or educators likerole in guiding that process is?

Speaker 3 (32:50):
So number one children aren't born with a
brain that is shaped by futility, so they don't know stop and
start, they don't know rules,they don't have limits, like.
The brain is mostly open-ended,and the reason for that is so
that we shape it so when theyare met with something that they
don't like or they getfrustrated by that, they want,

(33:10):
they have an agenda.
No, you know babies.
A baby will scream.
You know holler for milk.
A three-year-old Whoa.
They want their toast cut aparticular way.
They've got their favoritepants.
You see, this agenda increases.
So, by three or four, a childstarts to really feel the
futilities, the limits andrestrictions.
So what is the emotion thatgets stirred up?
Frustration.

(33:30):
Frustration has three outcomes.
The first outcome is a childwill try to change it.
They become a telemarketer,they try to negotiate, they try
to talk you out of your own mind.
Simply put, if it's a no, it'sa no.
Just be generous.
It's a no.
And that means that the secondalternative, the second pathway
in this roundabout, would openup, which is adaptation.

(33:52):
They have to adapt to thethings they can't change.
If they're not going to changeit, and it can't change, then
they have to change and that'show they learn limits and
restrictions.
It can't change, then we, thenthey have to change, and that's
what they, how they learn limitsand restrictions, and that's
usually a pathway of tears.
Usually we just it's a no, youcan be upset, you can be
frustrated, whatever you want.
It doesn't mean you can gopunch your brother.
It just means you know you'rewelcoming and inviting the
frustration.

(34:14):
Young child will often have veryphysical forms and older child,
for three, four and up, willoftentimes have verbal forms
poopoo face, I hate you.
Whatever, you're not myfavorite person.
And then, five to seven, we getthis tempering.
So oftentimes they'll eithertry to change your mind, change
the circumstances, change therules.
Again, it's for us to say no,caring, but firm, invite the

(34:36):
child to cry or feel sad,frustrated, disappointed, just
to land in that place where it'sa no With young children.
Oftentimes they just don't goand dissolve into tears.
They often go into the thirddoorway, which is aggression,
and that's when the frustrationturns foul and that's where you
get a physical or verbal form ofattack or self-attack.

(34:57):
And that's usually what happensin the very immature, when
there's no, um, uh, you knowmixed feelings and thoughts.
And so again, usually whathappens in the very immature,
when there's no, you know mixedfeelings and thoughts, and so
again we have to come backaround and focus on frustration
and either change what isn'tworking or help the child to
feel the futility, sadness,upset that comes with it.
You can't say to someone youknow it's okay, you can cry.

(35:17):
Now, I know, I understand, it'sokay.
Nobody cries to that.
It's usually it's going to be ano, I gotcha, yeah, it's upset,
you really wanted a yes.
Whatever, it is some way toinvite and make it safe, to feel
that the frustration is futile.
It will not change and if youalways make something work for a

(35:40):
child, it's going to be harderto get there, but you can get
there.
I just have to make sure thatyour no's mean no and your yes's
mean yes's like yay, you can doit.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
No's mean no, yeah.
So with that, how can, like, ifI'm in that situation, my kid
is crying, what I want as aparent is for the crying to stop
right.
Like I, my ears just cannothandle this.
And then my brain, the nextstep of my brain, my processing
of this, is they are ungratefulor they are.

(36:15):
I go into judgment and thenthat becomes a bigger problem
for me as a parent, Right?
And then I'm like I can'tbelieve you're upset about this
and you have no right.
Like we, I pushed back on theirfeelings.
Can you talk about what goes onfor the child when that happens
?
Well, what's going on?

Speaker 3 (36:31):
for us, I mean we're highly frustrated, can't change
the child's feelings, we can'tmake them learn fast enough.
We're tired and exhausted fromour own days and our millions of
responsibilities and the stresswe have, like you know,
throwing in a pandemic for goodmeasure, right?
So one of the greatestchallenges of parenting is our
own emotions that are stirred upin the face of trying to be our

(36:54):
child's answer.
What I can say is that I knowwhen I'm in that position, where
it's about my emotions, I can'ttake care of my children very
well.
It's only by focusing on what'sgoing on for my child and
having my caring being greaterthan my own frustration.
So my own mixed feelings it'snot to say my frustration goes
away, no, it's still there veryloud but my caring.

(37:17):
I have to try to find a way tomake my caring bigger, and
that's why this work gives meaccess to that, because it gives
me greater insight.
I can understand, you know, ifyou see your child is frustrated
because they can't get whatthey want and their child, their
brain is immature, they don'tcome programmed that way.
That changes my lens.

(37:37):
If I see my child is ungrateful, I've told them a hundred times
this is on purpose they're outto get me, then, wow, that
reaction is going to be a lotdifferent.
You know, if I see my child issomehow, you know, flawed,
resistant and oppositional, thenI'm going to maybe push.
If I see my child is having aninstinct to oppose, um coercion,

(38:00):
because that serves theirhealthy growth and development
and helps them become their ownperson one day, and that I went
in too fast, too hard towhatever, then it changes what I
do.
So insight if we don't haveculture to guide us, we're going
to have to have consciousnessand we're going to have to have
insight.
And that's why insight thatthey're immature, don't take it

(38:20):
personally.
It's likely developmental.
It is developmental and it'sprobably never.
I don't know.
I can't say never because Idon't know what it was like to
parent 100 years ago.
Our parents are working reallyhard to change tracks from a
behavioral to a developmentalpoint of view.
They're trying to survive in aclimate that isn't always

(38:42):
friendly to parents andsupportive.
And so be patient with yourselfand be patient with your
feelings.
It's okay that you have them,but try to let your caring be
bigger and try not to interactwith a child unless your caring
is, because oftentimes you'rereally going to mess it up.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
I mean, you know, I'm just speaking from personal
experience and for me I had,like, no other choice.
So my kids are neurodivergentand my middle son is, you know,
I know PDA is not technically adiagnosis but pathological
demand avoidance technically adiagnosis, but pathological

(39:24):
demand avoidance and so hismeltdowns, even at 10, are big
and his anxiety manifests asanger.
So I literally had no otherchoice, because some of his
meltdowns when he was seven,eight, nine, would last over an
hour and if I picked up thatrope or if I would allow my
frustration to come out, itwould be another hour.
So I got to the point where Ihad no other choice but to

(39:45):
parent this way and I'm sothankful because I see that the
neural connections are finallydeveloping and he's starting to
have some ability to regulateand be mindful.
Just the other day we weretalking about it and there's
certain things that trigger himand he's like and he calls them
tantrums.
You know I call them meltdowns,but he's like, you know, when I

(40:08):
have a tantrum, this is what'shappening for me.
It's like, you know, when you'reriding a bike.
I mean, he's totally giving methis analogy, which was so
amazing.
He's like, it's like whenyou're riding a bike and you
know you're going pretty slow.
You can put your foot down, youhave brakes right, you can just
stop the bike.
He was like but then if you'regoing on a hill and you're going
really, really fast and that'swhat's happening for me, and

(40:30):
then you're you know, if youstart getting frustrated with me
and I try to put my foot down,I can't, I have no access to
brakes and I'm just like keepgoing.
And I was like that is sobeautiful for him to start
realizing what's happening fromthe inside.
It's still hard and I have todo a lot of things to heal my
own nervous system.
Um, but yeah, what you'redescribing is it really is
beautiful and leads itself to areally strong attachment, um

(40:51):
with our kids and just helpstheir development.
So much, yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:54):
And what you said is so beautiful your son's
attachment and his relationshipto himself and his own feelings,
right Like as he grows andmatures.
That's the way through is he'sgot to govern himself.
He's got to understand thosereactions inside of him.
I mean, can you imagine being10?
Like, think back to when wewere 10.
I might have a few years on you, but not many.

(41:14):
Can you imagine back to 10 andsaying that, like nobody talks
like that, your parents don'teven understand?
So it would allow you and youdon't even have to say it
publicly out loud he's sayingthat to you because he feels
safe to say it but to be able tohave that inner conversation,
to sort it through, reflect onit, think about and feel what

(41:36):
you want to do and how you wantto show up.
I don't want to hurt the people.
When I'm going 100 miles anhour down the hill on my bike
and I have this feeling insideof frustration, I actually want
to be able to deal with thosefeelings and not hurt the people
I love.
Like that's the essence ofmaturity, that's the conflict
and that reflection that'srequired.
But so it's incredible that ourchildren have this invitation

(41:58):
to their inner world of emotion.
It's remarkable and I can't waitto see what this is going to
look like in 20 years for thosekids who have it.
I think it's.
I think we're going to be verypleased.
I know with my kids, who are 19and 17,.
It's incredible to watch theirrelationships with people now
outside of the house, in theircommunity, how people look at

(42:20):
them, how they're responsible,how they're caring and I think,
wow, you know, be a patientgardener, be a patient gardener.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
So while we're talking about this, I have a few
other little questions.
So can you talk aboutcounterwill?
What is counterwill?
And I mean this kind of goesalong with just the frustration
roundabout and everything.
But how can we give kids moreautonomy and just kind of talk
about their relationship withneeding to be their own person

(42:51):
and getting this direction fromus all the time?

Speaker 3 (43:04):
is probably responsible for a lot of trouble
Parent and child, childrelationship and marriages,
families.
Oh my goodness, if weunderstood this emotion and
instinct that goes hand in hand.
So the emotion is resistanceand opposition and the instinct
is counter will, which we callit, which is basically an
instinctive reaction to do theopposite or to preserve one's

(43:29):
own thinking and to basicallypush back against any types of
coercion.
So you feel resistance andopposition.
So it might be simple as let'sbrush your teeth?
No, okay, let's not brush yourteeth.
No, okay, let's not brush yourteeth, I'm gonna brush my teeth.
And what is going on here?
Let's just use reversepsychology.

(43:51):
Well, what's at play here is iscounter will.
You know, you get a ticket, Idon't want to pay that ticket,
even though you know you have topay the ticket.
Like we have reactions all overthe place when we feel pushed.
You will, you know, believethis, you will learn this, you
will do this.
It's like no, I won't.
So counter will is tricky.
We are meant to develop astrong will.

(44:13):
We're meant to have our ownminds, because this is what
serves ultimate maturity andindependence.
You've got to know where, whereyou begin and end.
You have to chart your own life.
You have to emerge as aseparate person.
So the whole path likepreschoolers and teenagers have
tons of counter will uh, veryeasy to trigger, press into it.

(44:37):
You won't get away with notdoing it, but that is helping
them, the preschooler becomemore independent and functioning
as a separate self, able to goout into the world, go to school
, whatever.
And then the teenager has toemerge from these teenagers as
an adult and be viable as aseparate being.
So, my goodness, you know if Ihad a couple.
I mean, I wrote a whole chapteron this and you could write a

(44:59):
whole book on counter will.
To be really honest with you, Iwrote a whole chapter on this
and you could write a whole bookon counter will.
To be really honest with you,it's everywhere.
Once you see it, it's humorous.
Just turn on TikTok or any ofthose little videos and stuff.
It's all over the place.
It makes me laugh so hard whenI see it often because it's like
well, you know what's coming.
You gave the direct request.
What do you think?

(45:19):
But the parent isn't wrong forhaving an agenda.
So usually when our kids arepushing back, I'll give just
three things, three ways to lookat it?
Number one did you collect themand harness their attachment
instincts and their attentionbefore you gave them direction?
If they're not yours andthey're not in connection to you
especially the immature they'renot inclined to follow you, not

(45:41):
like they're holding on to you.
The preschooler feels likeyou've, just if they're in the
middle of play, it's like you'vecome out of nowhere and now
you're telling them what to do.
Come to dinner.
They might be hungry but it'slike yeah, that just hit me
upside the head.
You got to have a hello first.
You have to collect it in theirface in a friendly way.
We're not meant to followpeople.
We're not attached toPreschoolers, only attached to

(46:01):
one thing and like in focus.
And if it's not you, it'ssomebody else or their play.
So collect them before youdirect them.
Collect them before you have to.
You know, direct them to play.
You know anything that you needthere or not.
Play um, dinner time, washinghands, any kind of tasks that
you need their cooperation on.
Collect, collect, do everythingin the context of connection Um

(46:24):
, and, by the way, structuresand routines are a form of
collecting.
So if a child just gets used todoing something every morning,
it doesn't mean you have to bein their face every morning, get
dressed If they have their ownroutine.
That's a form of moving alongin a particular agenda.
The second thing is is when youhave provoked counter will
recognize it.
Try not to take it personallyand try not to push back.

(46:47):
Try not to push back.
If you push back it increasesthe resistance and opposition
tenfold.
You have to, you have to dothis, you should, you ought to,
you must or else.
And you can just feel anyspunky child with any sense of
will is just going to push backand go and before you know it

(47:09):
you're taking away their collegeeducation and you can't go free
and look what I'll take away.
And you're upping the ante andyou have pushed yourself so far
out of relationship, that childwanting to follow you now or
seeing you as safe.
You have lost more thanwhatever it was you're arguing
about.
You've lost a bigger picture.
You've lost the capacity tolead that child.

(47:29):
But guess what?
We have very strong counterwill responses as well as
parents, because we're matureand we have an agenda and we do
know, like 99% of the time weknow better.
So of course we get triggeredby it, but it's just the more
mature you are, the more you'regoing to step on it.
So try not to take itpersonally.
Try not to push back.

(47:50):
It will test every ounce ofpatience and maturity inside of
you.
I can promise you I still gettested on it daily with
teenagers.
Sometimes they're better thanothers.
But yeah, try to have arelationship with it.
And the third thing is todiffuse counter will very
quickly.
You can't seem impotent and atthe same time you don't want to

(48:11):
seem adversarial.
So try to lead through it.
I'm going to have thisconversation later with you.
I can see it's not a great timeto have it.
It's really hard to hear whatI'm saying right now.
You're really not happy withwhat I'm saying right now.
We'll get that bathroom cleanedup.
It doesn't have to happen rightaway.
We'll come back around to talkabout it.
Just give it some breathingroom.
Don't force down the channellike I gotta get this done.

(48:34):
Give yourself a littlebreathing room.
Keep the lead.
Doesn't mean you have to dropyour agenda, but preserve some
dignity, integrity between thetwo of you.
I found just letting some of thesteam out and acknowledging the
resistance and oftentimes justturning my eyes.
Your eyes, our eyes as parents,are so powerful.
It's got all of that right here.

(48:56):
Yeah, and you're just looking.
They're like oh, I can see thatthey're watching.
Am I doing it?
Sometimes, just shifting, Iknow it'll get done, and having
just a bit of arrogance rightand just moving on to something
else just can diffuse some ofthat resistance and opposition.
It gives the child a little bit, or the teenager some room to,
you know, find their own waythere.
Just, you know we can be alittle less explicit.

(49:20):
You know that bathroom.
What's the plan for thebathroom this weekend, which is
cute to my kids, I think itneeds a little, you know, love
and attention from a spraybottle and a paper towel
attention from spray bottle anda paper towel.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
We use a lot of declarative language in this
house.
I see messy bathroom.
I see it.

Speaker 3 (49:42):
So anyway.
So those would be some ways tolook at counter will.
But oh, if you feel it'sprovocative, it should be if you
feel you're in charge.
But diffuse the resistance.
Don't take it personally.
Collect the child before youmove in.
Recollect them.
If you have to use play todiffuse it, personally, collect
the child before you move in.
Recollect them.
If you have to Use play todiffuse it, the more mature they
are, the less there might be.
You know, the more mature youget, the more you realize that

(50:03):
resistance is futile.
Sometimes it's futile to resistpaying not paying your parking
tickets.
It's futile to resist the callof your body and going to sleep,
or, you know, self-care.
Like you realize, some thingsbecome futile.
So don't worry, there is apathway here to more maturity.
But I believe, outside of yourchild's frustration and big

(50:24):
emotions like that, counter willis the most trickiest dynamic
in caring for an immature being.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
I mean, when you read any parenting book, they always
talk about power struggles andthat's essentially what a power
struggle is right.
You have a counter will eachchild and then you have your
counter will pushing backagainst that.
And what's helped me, um, is toknow that my job as a parent is
not to push my will and, likemy agenda, it's to maintain

(50:51):
influence with that childlong-term.
And if turning away from thattricky counter-wheel pushback
moment and trying to defuse that, that's not losing a battle, my
battle's not in that moment.
My battle is a long-terminfluence like developmental
growth goal and yeah, and justlet those things go.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
And understanding our kids have a different timeline
than we do too.
It's like I don't know why wefeel that things have to get
done right now.
I don't know how many times Ihave come out of my mouth and
I'm like why does it have to bedone right now?
And I realized my kids havetotally different timelines than
I do.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
Yeah, cause we're in a hurry and we have a lot of
things on our plate and we don'thave a lot of support
oftentimes.
So we are in a hurry and it'shard.
I'm going to enjoy being agrandparent.
I think a lot of not being somuch in a hurry.
That's my goal, yeah, but youknow the point being, you know,
how do we keep in a place ofinfluence in our children's
lives and I would go one stepfarther is that I know I may

(51:50):
back up on something in thatmoment.
We're not back up sidestep.
Let's just be honest.
I'm sidestepping because I'mlike, hmm, that wasn't the right
way and that's okay, I'm goingto think about it, I'll get
there.
I'm just strategizing.
How am I going to get there?
And sometimes it's like Deb, youjust got to let it go.
Like what are you doing?
This isn't for you.

(52:10):
They're like 19.
Let it go, mom, move on.
Like this is for her to carry,not for you anymore.
You've got to let that go.
So I can have that conversationwith myself.
And then sometimes I'm like, no, this is important, I can't be
sidelined.
I have to still have myinfluence and I'll find another
way through.
I'll collect a different way,I'll get to that child's side a
different way.
I went in not knowing and I can.

(52:32):
I can, you know, look forreceptivity in different ways.
I can find receptivity indifferent ways, but if I'm
alienated from the relationship,I don't have any receptivity.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
In your book you described the six stages of
attachment and how it unfolds,what it looks like, over the
first six years of life.
The key here is predictabilityand consistency, right, so if
these stages are not supported,they can be arrested.
Can you give us an overview ofthese stages and some of the
reasons why kids get stuck?

Speaker 3 (53:04):
Well, first of all, a relationship unfolds in six
sequential phases, so oneunfolds after the other when
each one is met, and thesephases can open up at any time
in life.
You could fall in love for thefirst time when you're 40.
They lower you in the grave.
You can be working onrelationship, deepening
relationship, increasing yourcapacity as a relational being.

(53:27):
There's no set agenda here interms of nature, only that we
are constantly pushed to be inrelationship, deep and
cultivated, in the first year oflife, though it's ideal in the
first six years of life that weget six ways of attaching that
increasingly become more deepand more vulnerable, because
it's like a plant the deeperyour attachment roots, the

(53:49):
greater the potential right.
But you can realize that if achild is stuck, you can still
get there at 10 and open these,these channels for connection.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
This is what I think is really interesting is that it
starts at the beginning of life, but it's not like when we're
talking about this.
This isn't just for babies.
Sometimes people think thatattachment oh, I'm going to like
do skin to skin and nurse themand then my attachment is done.
But this is something thatcarries through adolescence and
right something that carriesthrough adolescence.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
and right, If you understand yeah, if you
understand the power ofattachment, you can't not see it
everywhere you go.
I wanted to work in HR andorganizations.
I would use my understanding ofattachment If I wanted to work
in adult development and how wegrow as adults or as parents.
Um, I do work with the parentside.
It would all be aboutattachment.
There's no growth anddevelopment in any living thing

(54:39):
that doesn't rest on attachmentscience.
But I focus on families andkids because I figure if we get
it out of the gate right, we'rebetter off down the road and
we're realizing our humanpotential.
So why I focus here is becauseit's profound.
But we must never forget thatthere's always hope and growth

(55:02):
happens in many different waysand we can get stuck and we may
have to go through grief, butthere is still growth and
potential inside of us once thathappens.
So in the first year of life,kids attach infants.
Attach to the senses touch,taste, smell, seeing, hearing,
feeling.
If you fall in love for thefirst time, you want to hold

(55:23):
hands, kissing.
It's like wow, the senses openup.
It's just like it bonds you,oxytocin pressing you just, and
you're just like it's that rushright Of sensory contact.
In the second year of life,it's about sameness.
This is where kids, if they'reunfolding well here they start

(55:44):
to copy, imitate.
They learn your language.
They want to eat like you, youknow, they walk like you.
They have favorite colors asyou.
It's the very beginning ofidentity.
They're just a collection ofcharacteristics of the people
that they're attached to.
It's so adorable, you know.
You just look at their favoritecolor and you're like orange.
Okay, is that mom or dad'sfavorite?
Oh, dad's, oh yeah.

(56:06):
By the third year of life, achild will attach through
belonging and loyalty.
This is where they become moreterritorial, they become more
possessive.
They want to um claim this ismy mama, my dad, my toys, my
brother.
You see this incredible, uh,possessiveness, because what

(56:27):
it's doing is it's anchoringthem into home in a deeper way.
You can really feel those rootsgoing down.
They have a sense of place,they have a sense of people.
There's security in that base,which then allows a
three-year-old to venture outand you'll see that the
three-year-olds just starts topop into play a little bit more,
15 minutes at a time, andthey're just gone in a play
world.
You're like whoa, yes, becausethey're anchored into possession

(56:50):
and belonging.
It's like you know my mama,anchored into possession and
belonging.
It's like you know my mama, mydada, they do not share.
They'll have fierce battles atthis age, but that's what
attachment looks like.
It's this incrediblepossessiveness around whatever,
whoever they're attached to,that creates the safe base.
Then, by age four, from thereyou see this beautiful movement

(57:12):
into significance, where notonly they want to, you know, be
close to you, they want to soundlike you and act like you and
be the same as you and belongand possess, but they also want
to matter.
They want your eyes to light up, they want to be seen, they
want to be heard, they want tobe special, they want to be held
in high regard.
You know, they want to see youreyes and your smile.

(57:32):
They want to see your delight.
I mean, all kids do.
But this is a deeper, morevulnerable way of delighting,
and if there's a sense that theydon't measure up, this really
stings at this age because it'sit's a lack of significance.
And so the temptation at thisage is to use your significance
to make a child work for love,and I can tell you this really

(57:55):
sets you up in a very differentdevelopmental pathway.
A child do they have to work tobe loved or can they take it
for granted At this age if youcan still convey significance to
a child, even when they blow it.
It's okay, we'll get through it.
Everybody makes mistakes.
You know.
You're just learning.
It's understandable.
You know you can do something.

(58:16):
It's understandable, you know.
You know you can do somethingdifferent next time.
I'm still here.
That conveys an invitation forrelationships and significance
that isn't based on performance.
Significance must be for theperson and not for the behavior.
It's really important by agefour, by age five, if all is
unfolding well, they give theirheart to whoever they are

(58:37):
attached to I love you and it'snot just the simple words that a
two-year-old would say I loveyou, mommy, because they're
echoing and they're copying,they're imitating.
You can actually feel that thelimbic system is like opened up
and you can feel this warmth andyou can feel the vulnerability
I love you Like.
The heart can really be hurtnow and this is really why it's

(58:57):
important, especially in thedifficult times, not to, you
know, be, not to be a sword, youknow, and our actions to be
sword like for the child,because when they give you their
heart, while they can be surewounded by this, but deep caring
, and then, on the heels of that, by age six, the final and
deepest form of connection isnot just emotional intimacy,

(59:20):
it's psychological intimacy,where they want to be known by
you.
They wish to tell you theirsecrets.
They can tell you when they'veblown it.
Sometimes there's trust in therelationship, there's an
invitation for it.
Sometimes there's trust in therelationship, there's an
invitation for you knowpersonhood that isn't based on
just achieving particularperformance measures.

(59:41):
There's an authenticity to it,a genuineness, a real invitation
to exist in their presence andto understand and come to know
them.
And so you know our youngchildren.
This is the antidote to thelying they can now tell and not
wanting to keep secrets from us.
And so if we can get to thisdeep level of relationship, then
we can hold on to their hearts,we can be a source and a guide

(01:00:03):
and influence them and lead themtowards a maturity.
And that's why those six rootsof relationship are really
important.
Roots of relationship arereally important but you know,
the thing is is, once you get tothat, then they just unfold and
they deepen.
When, by the time they moveinto their teenage years,

(01:00:25):
they're going to choosefriendships and partnerships
based on how deep they go inthose relationships.
So it is all about possessionand belonging.
That sets up a very differentkind of relationship than it
does.
If you can share at the heartlevel and you can share your
secrets, there's a deeper levelof intimacy in your
relationships and of course thatcan impact how we then move
into our own parenthood and ourpartnerships and other

(01:00:46):
relationships.
So it's never too late.
But these roots need to bedeveloped in relationship to
other people, so we need aninvitation.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
So if I have a 13 year old and I feel like they
are only connecting at the levelof like sameness, what can I do
to move them along?

Speaker 3 (01:01:06):
Well, I think there's a couple of things.
One is is obviously connect atthe level of sameness.
And I've had those kids in myoffice Um, I've had kids like
that and they'll just say, yeah,I'm sort of the same, but
that's about it, and you cantell there's a real hunger,
there's real anxiety, realfrustration, alarm, self harm
sometimes.
So some of those symptoms getreally scary.
So you're like, okay, but whatdo I do?

(01:01:26):
Well, how can connection help?
Well, going through that dooris sameness.
That's the doorway that they'remost open to.
It's usually the safest interms of it's not very
vulnerable.
So find your doorway in.
You know they like to go dopaintball, you know shooting or
whatever it is.
You know the paintball guns.
Go do that.
They like to hike, they like tomountain climb, whatever it is.
You know.
Find a way to their side andfocus on sameness.

(01:01:48):
Don't focus on all the thingsthat come between you, the
behavior, the problems.
Find a way around that and tohold on to it, to compensate for
it as best as you can Read.
Hold on to your kids would bethe book I would say by Gordon
Neufeld.
If you're in that situation,just keep plugging away at it,
but also do a good analysis ofwhat happened.

(01:02:11):
What's the story of why therelationship not go deeper?
It may be things inside thehome, it could be things outside
the home that have turned thetables on the relationship.
So look around and do a bit ofan assessment to say, okay,
what's getting in the way ofrelationship?
Who's getting in the way ofrelationship?
We can't just simply cut thosethings off.

(01:02:32):
But when you make yourrelationship stronger, when your
invitation is deeper, warmer,more secure and safe, what
happens?
It's like any plant If there'sa source of nourishment, the
roots grow towards thenourishment.
The roots that might have beengoing in a direction that
weren't serving them areatrophied because this is such a

(01:02:55):
strong source of nourishmentthat over time you see these
roots anchoring into thatrelationship, into that
nourishment.
So we have to be patient.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
And do you see that?
Can that happen in both ways,like towards the parent and also
towards like a peer attachmentpathway?
If that talk a little bit aboutpeer attachment.

Speaker 3 (01:03:19):
Yeah Well, peer attachment is probably it's the
greatest phenomena that's takingour children's uh development
offline right now that they mayhave become more oriented
towards their peers as thesource of relationship than
their adults, and so those kidsare really lost because and
screens in the digital world wasbuilt upon peer orientation and

(01:03:40):
delivers them to their peers.
And Gordon Neufeld and GaborMate's book in 2004, hold On To
your Kids, was acknowledgingthat this phenomena, this
attachment phenomena, thisaberration and attachment, had
unfolded.
And we have only seen greaterchallenges as a result of this,

(01:04:02):
Although many parents, I think,were highly influenced by their
work and have done an incrediblejob to hold on to their kids.
So the work has been profound.
I dare say I wonder what wouldhave happened without them
bringing this to consciousness.
So it is very common today thatour children will be lured at
least into peer orientation orbe going to school with kids who

(01:04:23):
are highly peer oriented, ifthey're not, and face challenges
around inclusion, being wounded, exclusion, bullying.
It's hijacking classrooms in aprofound way.
So I'd say get educated,educated.
Understand what peerorientation is.
Don't court the competition.
Friends are wonderful, but itshould be peers and parents, not

(01:04:46):
peers or parents.
There shouldn't be an, or itshould be an and.
And if you feel like your kidsfriends are taking them out of
orbit around you, if you'refeeling this jealous
possessiveness, don't think it'sjust because you're a coddling
parent and you're any of thosekind of.
You know, maybe you need tocorrect your own expectations
and maybe there's somethingreally there that's saying

(01:05:18):
you're losing influence withyour child.
You need to pay attention.
No, teenagers don't need to goit alone.
No, they don't.
Actually, they still need to beanchored.
The world just widens.
Their story starts at home andit just widens as they go into
the world.
But it doesn't mean they losethat base.
It means they venture out intoa wider world.

(01:05:38):
So this idea that our teenagersjust let us go to be with their
friends doesn't understandattachment.
That's a reattachment and adetachment from the roots that
should anchor you in a woundingworld.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
Yeah, one of my favorite quotes here is that
just because something is commondoesn't mean it's normal, right
?
It's like, well, that's whatall of the kids are experiencing
and doing, so that must bewhat's good.
And you add that to ourobsession with independence,
it's like, oh, that's the plan.
But we were never meant to losethis influence and this kind of
core attachment and guidance,this leadership as parents and

(01:06:15):
as educators as well.
And if you're listening and youare an educator, the Neufeld
Institute also has a wonderfulbook called Reclaiming Our
Students, by Hannah Beach andTamara Stryjack Awesome, thank
you.
It's a wonderful book.
All of the Neufeld Institutebooks are wonderful.
It's a wonderful book.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
All of the Neufeld Institute books are wonderful,
great, and this has been amazing.
I have one last question aboutcan this be hard for parents
that didn't get this secureattachment or go through these
stages of attachment themselvesas a child?

Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
I hear that a lot and , of course, not having this as
a child of course impacts yourcapacity to rest.
Although we may have found itin different relationships and
in nature and substitutes thatserved us well, ultimately the
parent we become is therelationship we have with
ourself.
That's beautiful.

(01:07:10):
What happened to us is notreally the story.
It's about how we come to haveour own story and understanding
of our own journey to where weare.
How do we feel about thosethings?
How do we grieve those things?
How do we find our caring inthe faith despite those things?

Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
How do we make sense of how we got to where we are
today?

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
that's beautiful and and I will say this is that
there's no greater reason whyyou rewrite your story,
re-examine it and feel it allover again, and because you care
so deeply for a child that youwant a different story for them.
So it's in the face of our lovefor our children as a parent

(01:07:58):
that we come to rewrite thatstory and feel differently and
yearn to do differently, to findour caring in the face of
frustration, to have aninvitation for their emotions,
even though there were none forours.
Does it mean that you have toheal all your trauma before you
become a parent?
No, you are going to be doingit, trust me.
While you are parenting, justtry to be not let your

(01:08:22):
unfiltered emotions come out onyour children, and remember that
your relationship to yourselfwill guide you here, and your
relationship to your child iswhat makes you want to have a
different relationship withyourself.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
Wow, that's such an incredible place to end.
I could feel all the feels.
That was so good.
So we thank you so much foryour time today, and we have one
last question that we like toask all of our guests who is
someone who helped kindle yourcuriosity, motivation or your
wellbeing when you were young?
Your?

Speaker 3 (01:08:54):
curiosity, motivation or your wellbeing when you were
young.
Well, I think the the it mightnot be a someone I mean I could
easily say my grandfather whointroduced me to his garden and
to play, but I would actuallysay that it was play itself that
delivered me.
Um, it was play, yeah, it wasplay, um that I cherish, and and

(01:09:17):
the people I played with, likemy sisters, and um, they it was.
I can't even put into wordswhat a special place in making
something out of nothing and tofeel what came out of me and
that relationship that I wasable to have with myself in play

(01:09:38):
and with other people in playwhether that was my grandparents
or my sister's play wasincredible.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):
That's awesome.
Yeah, thank you.
That was a beautiful response.
Well, we're so grateful for allthe time that you've spent with
us and we've learned so much,so we'd like to share with all
of our listeners where they canfind your work, what, how, where
can they find what you're doingand connect with you off
offline?

Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
Best place is, I guess, my website and social
media, so just McNamaraca orDeborahMcNamaracom, and, of
course, the NewfeldInstituteorg,where I'm there with many of my
other faculty and people whooffer presentations and seminars
, and it's a beautiful place,yeah, so thank you so much for

(01:10:27):
having me.
It was lovely to be with youboth today.
Yes, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
If this episode was helpful to you, please like,
subscribe and follow us onsocial at Prenda learn.
If you have any questions you'dlike for us to address on the
podcast, all you have to do isemail us at podcast at Prendacom
.
You can also join our Facebookgroup, the Kindled collective,
and subscribe to our weeklynewsletter, the Sunday spark,

(01:10:52):
the.

Speaker 1 (01:10:52):
Kindle podcast is brought to you by Prenda.
Prenda makes it easy for you tostart and run an amazing micro
school based on all the thingsthat we talk about here on the
Kindle podcast.
If you want more informationabout guiding a Prenda micro
school, just go to Prendacom.
Thanks for listening andremember to keep kindling you.

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Season 1 Top 10 | #3 Rest. Play. Grow. A Conversation with Dr. Deborah MacNamara

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Season 1 Top 10 | #3 Rest. Play. Grow. A Conversation with Dr. Deborah MacNamara