October 6, 2025 • 45 mins
We explore how Education Savings Accounts move accountability to families, why universal eligibility builds durable coalitions, and what it takes to grow small pilots into statewide “oaks” that actually meet demand. Matt Ladner shares lessons from Arizona, Texas, Florida, and West Virginia on funding design, flexibility, and political strategy.
• ESA as flexible, multi‑use accounts beyond vouchers
• Texas milestone and scale context for a “big acorn”
• Shift from means‑tested to universal eligibility
• Coalition building across income and zip codes
• Special needs origins of choice and lived accountability
• Bullying as top driver for switching schools
• Demand‑driven design: formula funding, no lotteries
• Funding parity and the West Virginia shortfall lesson
• Plural supply: private, public courses, microschools, tutors
• Teacher autonomy and co‑creation with families
• Legal headwinds and why courts often uphold programs
• Optimistic outlook for a more vibrant, plural system
About our guest
Matt Ladner has been writing about education policy for decades and he has been instrumental in the creation of school choice policies all over the country. He blogs at Next Steps and he is a Senior Advisor at Heritage’s Center for Education Policy. Previously, Matt held roles with the Arizona Charter Schools Association, EdChoice, and ReimaginED. Ladner is a graduate of the University of Texas at Austin and received a master’s degree and a Ph.D. in political science from the University of Houston.
Connect with Matt
The Heritage Foundation
Next Steps Blog
Twitter
Got a story to share or question you want us to answer? Send us a message!
About the podcast
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments.
Powered by Prenda Microschools, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle young learners' curiosity, motivation, and well-being.
Got a burning question?
We're all ears! If you have a question or topic you'd love our hosts to tackle, please send it to podcast@prenda.com. Let's dive into the conversation together!
Important links:
• Connect with us on social
• Get our free literacy curriculum
Interested in starting a microschool?
Prenda provides all the tools and support you need to start and run an amazing microschool. Create a free Prenda World account to start designing your future microschool today. More info at ➡️ Prenda.com or if you're ready to get going ➡️ Start My Microschool
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Every single person that provides services to my
child is directly accountable tome.
I hire them and I can fire themand I will, right?
And to me, that's trueaccountability.
And like I'm sitting in theaudience with like this fat tear
joy going down my stair.
It was the most beautiful thingI'd ever seen.
SPEAKER_01 (00:22):
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to the Kindled Podcast.
I'm your host, Kelly Smith.
Today we'll be talking to MattLadner.
Matt's been writing abouteducation policy for decades.
He's been instrumental in thecreation of school choice
policies all over the country,starting in Arizona in 2011.
He blogs at Next Steps, and heis a senior advisor at the
(00:43):
Heritage Foundation's Center forEducation Policy.
Previously, Matt held roles withthe Arizona Charter Schools
Association, Chamber ofCommerce, EdChoice, and
Reimagine Ed.
Matt Ladner is a graduate of theUniversity of Texas at Austin
and received a master's degreeand a PhD in political science
from the University of Houston.
Matt's insightful about allthings ed policy and politics.
(01:07):
He has a really good pulse onhow the system works, what the
ideas are that will push schoolchoice forward.
And he's been on the ground.
So I hope he's able to sharesome great insights as we get
into this discussion.
I hope you'll enjoy looking intohow these policies work and what
some of the objections are andwhat a great ESA program might
(01:27):
actually be.
So with that, let's get into it.
Welcome, Matt Ladner.
Matt, hi, welcome from Texas.
Howdy.
Now you're in Texas, and todayis the day after the Texas
legislature passes a prettysignificant thing.
The univer the ESA program thatcan you just share a little bit
about what you're seeing inTexas?
And then I really want to expandthat to what you're seeing
(01:49):
nationwide.
I just saw a post from you whereyou you put a map with lots of
states colored in.
So let's uh let's talk aboutwhat's going on in Texas and
what's happening with the ESAprograms.
And maybe just quickly to start,give our audience just a quick
reminder of what ESA programsare.
SPEAKER_02 (02:04):
Yeah, so an ESA is an account-based school choice
program, you know, and it'sdifferent than say a voucher.
A voucher is basically a couponyou can use to go to a private
school.
An ESA can do that.
Like you think of it as anaccount.
You can only use it on educationpurposes, but those education
purposes go above and beyond uhprivate school tuition.
(02:26):
You could buy individual publicschool courses, you can uh use
them for college coursework, youcould hire tutors.
Uh, special needs families areusing it for therapists.
Um, and the idea is to givefamilies the maximum amount of
flexibility in order to makesure that the best that we can
that they get the kind ofeducation they need.
We started the first ESA programin the Arizona at Tebbin.
(02:47):
And since 2022, uh they'vespread all over that, you know,
there's been a lot of programsnow, and the latest is Texas.
Texas isn't quite uh all the waypast uh goal line now, but it
they it did pass the housefloor, which has always been the
first time a private choiceprogram has ever passed the
Texas House floor.
(03:08):
Uh it'll be a billion-dollar ayear program, it'll be the
biggest first-year program inthe history of the movement.
Um and so it's a pretty excitingtime for the school choice
movement.
You know, the uh the map's got alot of color on it now.
In 2022, as late as 2022, therewere no states with universal
(03:29):
eligibility for a private choiceprogram.
None.
And now there's I can't I'velost track.
Sixteen, maybe?
SPEAKER_01 (03:36):
Yeah.
unknown (03:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
Well, everything's bigger in Texas, as they say.
So a billion dollars a year isis a big deal.
I know some of the debate on thethe House floor kind of
mentioned that that's stillonly, you know, one percent of
the kids in Texas or somethinglike that.
It's a fraction of the overallspending in the system.
So just to keep that inperspective, it sounds like a
huge number to those of us insmaller states.
Uh Texas is just a really bigstate with a lot of people and
(04:00):
it's growing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:01):
Yeah.
I mean, so for some perspective,to be fair to the Texans, the
first year of the ESA program inArizona, we had 151 kids.
Right.
You know, so the idea is that,you know, these programs tend to
start small, but they, you know,if you design them correctly,
they can flourish and becomebigger.
So that that will be the taskahead.
(04:23):
Texas certainly Texans need anddeserve a program that can grow
with demand.
This current bill is not yetthat, but we've had a lot of
bills that start, you know, youstart and build on it, right?
So that's where we are withTexas.
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
Just a shout out to the Matt's blog and and some of
his writing.
He's really one of theinfluential and and just
thoughtful voices in thisindustry.
So as you listen to thispodcast, you're gonna want more
from Matt Loudner.
Check out his information.
We'll put it in the show notes.
But Matt, you just recently in ain a post kind of talked about
Texas and you use this phrase,you know, acorns and and great
(04:58):
oak trees.
And I think what you're talkingabout here is, you know,
starting with something that ofcourse it looks like an oak tree
to those of us in Arizona.
87,000 kids over here in Arizonathat are doing this program now.
But you know, that number of abillion dollars a year is um,
it's it's big.
I mean, that's a that's a bigstart that will hopefully be
able to grow.
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
It's a very big acorn.
SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
That's the way I would describe it.
Yes, yes, exactly.
A big acorn that's gonna grow inan even bigger tree.
Well, awesome.
Can you give us so you you know,you kind of mentioned a picture
of the United States with theseprograms kind of appearing?
You used a word universal.
I think this is important forlisteners to understand.
Can you kind of just cut talkabout what that even means, what
universal is, and how the 2011start to all of this was not
(05:43):
universal, and then you know,kind of the journey to get to
where we are today?
SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
Yeah.
So for the first 20-somethingyears of the school choice
movement, we were very focusedon means-tested bills, um, or
meaning that like you had tohave a certain be below a
certain family income toqualify.
And we did that for obvious andvery, you know, compelling moral
reasons.
You know, they're they're thelow-income kids tend to be in
(06:08):
the worst schooling situations,have the greatest needs and
whatnot.
But eventually there was a shiftin perspective.
And, you know, the bottom lineis that everyone pays their
school taxes, right?
And while equity concerns arevery important, and we we can
reflect them in things like, forinstance, funding levels, right?
We could give low-income kidsmore money in an ESA account.
(06:32):
We should not, however, berestricting eligibility, right?
And you and in fact, you look atevery other type of education
program you can think of, theidea of means testing it would
be completely outrageous, right?
Like, sorry, Billy, your mom anddad paid too many taxes, so
you're not allowed to go to theUniversity of Arizona is a
(06:54):
sentence that no one is evergoing to speak because it's
really, really profoundly dumb.
Like, you know, if theUniversity of Arizona said that,
they would instantly earnthemselves the animosity of a
lot of people that pay a lot oftaxes, right?
And even people that don't wantto send their kids to the
University of Arizona would bedeeply offended by the notion
(07:16):
that they're not allowed to sendtheir kid to the University of
Arizona after paying Arizonataxes, right?
So this is a very basicprinciple.
The New Dealers figured this outin the in the 30s with Social
Security, right?
The public is always so in thesame piece of legislation, the
United States government createdSocial Security and a program
called AFDC.
(07:36):
AFDC was only for low-incomepeople, and the public grew to
have a deep level of suspicionof hostility towards this
program.
Social Security, everyone paidin, everyone gets, and it's
still the third rail of Americanpolitics, right?
You don't have to be like apolitical super genius to figure
this out, right?
And so one of the big shiftsthat explains the huge uh amount
(08:00):
of research success in thechoice movement is just that.
We're giving this stuff, andit's right there in the polls.
If you poll the American publicand say, Do you support a
program that gives, you know,people below this income level
school choice, you'll get acertain amount of soap support.
If you say, you know, we'regonna give a program that that
gives everybody that wants toapply for it access, the support
(08:23):
goes up.
Well, of course it does, right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
It just it just hits logic in a different way.
It's a di it's a differentsentiment.
Like, yeah, you would make thatavailable to everybody.
SPEAKER_02 (08:33):
Even low-income people support the universal
program more.
Right.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (08:39):
You know, because they know you can see it's
interesting to hear you talkabout this because uh there's
been a lot, I think, especiallyin the last couple of years,
even in the general discussionsabout this kind of um, you know,
political elite.
There's this elitism that kindof comes from a play.
And from that seat, I just wantto sort of empathize with how we
got to means tested eligibilityrequirements.
(08:59):
From that seat, you might havesaid something like, Hey, rich
people already have access toschool choice, right?
They can send their kids to aprivate school, they can afford
that, they can move, which manyof them do.
And I think, you know, one ofthe great ironies of this
movement is some of the loudestvoices that are kind of on the
liberal elite category.
These people are saying we don'twant school choice to exist, and
(09:22):
at the same time moving toexpensive neighborhoods, sending
their kids to private schools.
So they have it, right?
And and I think that discrepancymay be part of like why we got
to this.
But it is, I think what you'repointing out, it's fundamentally
elitist and it's patronizing alittle bit to people to say,
hey, we're gonna do, you know,create these programs that are
(09:43):
just for you all, and the restof us can, you know, do the
somehow better way or somethinglike that.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (09:49):
The the school choice movement should should
absolutely view itself as as uhin part a constituency building
exercise.
And no social movement worth itssalt starts off with the premise
like, oh, we don't want thosepeople.
Right?
Like if if you're you know, andwe used to say this, I used to
(10:10):
say this, oh, what you justsaid, like, oh, it, you know,
those those Scottsdale people,they already have school choice,
right?
They bought their way intoScottsdale, they could afford
private school tuition.
If the question is, do you wantScottsdale soccer mom in your
coalition?
Let me tell everyone in thecountry very clearly right now
the answer is yes, you do.
You want everybody in yourcoalition, but you also want
(10:32):
her, right?
Uh that that woman is a fiercecreature.
I've seen Scottsdale soccer momswalk into committee hearings and
there is the Arizona legislatureand have the entire committee
melt.
She has a lot of social andpolitical capital.
She pays a lot of taxes.
So, like, what's the case forlike completely discriminating
against her and forcing her topay for a program that she's not
(10:53):
allowed to participate in?
But we finally got over that,right?
But we've made a lot of progresssince then.
SPEAKER_01 (10:59):
So there's a second wave of eligibility requirements
that was heavily involved inArizona's history.
And I've kind of lived thissince I started my first micro
school in 2018 in my house overhere in Mesa, Arizona.
And since that time, but evenbefore that, I was kind of
monitoring discussions in thelegislature.
There was a, as you know,universal ESA expansion that was
(11:20):
passed and then went toreferendum through kind of a
petition and then it lost in theballots.
And so we were kind of insteadworking in and around a district
and charter schools and doingthings differently to make the
program accessible.
At the same time, you know,we're watching this ESA program
and thinking, okay, so who getswho actually in reality gets to
do it?
(11:40):
And this is, you know, it's aninteresting discussion.
You're bringing up constituencybuilding and some of these
things that, you know, I'm not apolitical activist, I don't
think this way, but I thinkyou're right to, you know,
recognize that's what's goingon.
So maybe this is anotherconstituency conversation, but
there's a there was another setof criteria around basically
special needs.
You know, it was if you have anindividualized education plan,
(12:03):
an IEP, which is what the schoolsystem at large has put in place
to phenomenally help kids withspecial learning challenges.
I think in practice it's becomemuch more of a protect against
litigation in the realm of so ifyou have that piece of paper,
that then qualified you toparticipate in these ESA
programs.
Or if your brother had one, youcould, the sibling could go as
(12:25):
well.
Talk a little bit about thatfrom the same lens.
So that that was a anotherschool of thought in terms of
limiting eligibility.
And you still see this inprograms across the country.
Only special needs kids can doit.
SPEAKER_02 (12:37):
Yeah.
The first special needs choiceprogram passed in Florida in
1999.
Uh it was called the McKayScholarship Program.
It passed the Florida Senateunanimously because John McKay
uh was the Florida Senatepresident, sponsored the bill,
and a special needs dad.
Just for some background, thefederal legislation on special
needs education passed in 1975.
(12:59):
It's now called the IDEA.
It was important civil rightslegislation.
Before it passed, public schoolscould just flat out exclude
children from disabilities fromeven attending public schools,
but it has not been smoothsailing.
And in fact, while a lot ofpeople get what they need from
the public school system, Iwould say that in general, the
(13:23):
most dissatisfied and deeplydissatisfied group of people in
the public school system are theparents of special needs
children.
It is very difficult.
And some of these are due to theflaws and IDA, and some of it is
just practicality, right?
Can can every school hire thestaff they need to deal with
students with a very wide, anyschool of any size is going to
(13:48):
have a wide diverging set ofneeds that's difficult for the
school system to deal with,quite frankly.
I'm not saying it's impossibleor that they do as well as they
should necessarily.
Some do, some don't, right?
So when John McKay passed theMcKay Scholarship Program, it
grew very quickly in Florida.
And it basically just said, youknow, we're gonna give the state
(14:12):
money that would have gone tothe child's public school into a
voucher, and they could use thatto go to a private school.
Interestingly enough, the JohnMcKay Scholarship Program in
Florida led to the ESA inArizona.
As we passed a similar bill,voucher bill in Arizona when
Janet Napolitano was governor.
The Supreme Court struck itdown, okay, but left us a trail
(14:36):
of breadcrumbs that kind ofsaid, look, if there was more
than one way to spend this moneyother than just going to private
school, it might be okay.
And we were like, we shouldfollow that breadcrumb trail,
right?
And so I would say that some ofour most enthusiastic supporters
of the SA program are specialneeds families because it gives
them so many more options,right?
Um, this is not just going toabout going to private schools.
(15:00):
You can literally hire your owntherapists, right?
We have examples where familieskind of like join up together
and hire their own teacher,right?
If you you have, you know, a fewnumber, you know, I was like,
there are people that can makethat math work, right?
So it expands the universe ofoptions.
That's not to say thateverything is perfect, that
every every child is able tofind a good solution.
(15:24):
We also, at least in Arizona,remain with a very serious
problem where the biggest formof school choice is actually
open enrollment between districtschools.
And special needs students arecategorically excluded from that
in the public school system.
Um, you know, because federallaw only guarantees you access
to your zone district school ifit's a child with uh special
(15:48):
needs.
And the the district schools inArizona made it perfectly clear
like they are not interested intaking kids with disabilities.
So it's a very difficultsituation for a lot of families.
The ESA program is a tool thatsome families are using and that
special needs students areoverrepresented in the ESA
program.
We have a higher percentage ofspecial needs kids than the than
(16:10):
the than the district schoolsystem.
SPEAKER_01 (16:13):
Which says something, right?
That says something about what'sgoing on.
SPEAKER_02 (16:16):
Yeah.
I mean, in fact, I would argue,Kelly, that you know, the the
basis of the federal legislationis that a child with special
needs has an individualeducation plan, you know, air
quotes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I would argue that you can'treally have an individual
education plan unless you havecontrol over who is providing
services to your child.
Right.
(16:37):
Yeah, you can have a now that'snot to say that every IEP is
hollow or whatever, but a lot ofthem are.
And it's not that's not myopinion.
That's the opinion of thefamilies, right?
And you know, to be actually incontrol of this, right, is to be
able to like there was a greatone of our ESA moms, one of the
first year special needs mom,she was at a hearing in Arizona
(16:58):
where some of the opponents ofthe ESA program were were
grousing, right?
And she um she said, she got upto testify and she said, Well,
you gentlemen keep complainingabout there's no accountability.
There's no accountability inthis program.
She said, What I wanted to tellyou is that every single person
that provides services to mychild is directly accountable to
(17:21):
me.
I hire them and I can fire themand I will, right?
And to me, that's trueaccountability.
And like I'm sitting in the inthe audience with like this fat
tear joy going down my it wasthe most beautiful thing I'd
ever seen.
SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
Well, it's incredibly empowering for
somebody who has probably feltfor many years powerless, right?
I it's interesting you'retalking about IEPs.
So my experience with IEPs, Iknew nothing getting into when I
started my microschool.
Turns out I did have somespecial needs in my very first
class.
In 2019, Prendus started to kindof explode across Arizona.
And so I was meeting lots ofpeople from all parts of the
(18:01):
state and from all income levelsand backgrounds and rural and
urban.
And I'm I'm starting to justlisten and get to know these
people.
And very quickly, because wewere partnering with charter
schools, IEPs became uh, youknow, part of the lifeblood of
what we were doing.
So I was in these IEP meetingsand and what I realized is
there's basically two halves ofIEPs.
I don't know if they're equal inparts, but you know, one of the
(18:23):
halves is what you're talkingabout is extra services.
I've got a, you know, a kid witha speech deficiency, and they do
need someone to help themstructure, you know, the the
mouth in a way to perform andand pronounce the syllables of
the words.
And that's real.
That's there's real services,services around dyslexia,
services around autism andtherapies and things like that.
(18:45):
I will say there's a there's awhole other part that I wasn't
aware of.
And what it basically is, is acorrection against, they call it
accommodations or it's basicallya correction against a structure
that's too rigid, that'sdesigned for kind of big batches
and moving large groups throughat everybody at the same time.
(19:06):
And and it's things like letthem have more decisions in
their day, give them some moretime uh to finish an assignment
or a test, let them, you know,maybe you know, rearrange, like
there's some flexibility.
And it was interesting because Iwould look at these things and I
would see these requirements inthe IEP.
And I'm thinking, that's a funnything to require.
Like, why wouldn't you just givethat to everyone if possible?
(19:26):
And the microschool, of course,allowed me to do that.
So we had these really funnyconversations where they would
say, Well, you have to do this.
And I said, We do that for everykid.
Well, you have to do this, we dothat for every kid.
You have to do this.
You know what I mean?
And and I was like, Oh, this isthis is just it's fascinating
because it's a relic of, youknow, a system, a structure.
And again, this is never, it'snever like some teacher just
saying, I just want to punishyou.
(19:48):
It's it's like I have to becauseof this, this, and this.
And there's this federal law andstate interpretation, all these
things have piled up.
So, you know, I think everybodyfeels a little trapped by this
whole thing, but just the thefreedom of of that.
You know, I think the question,I've heard this as a criticism,
and we'll talk a little bitabout objections to ESA, that
somehow this would exclude.
You know, we got some articlesabout this, this would exclude
(20:08):
the special needs kids becausenow you're in this private world
and no one's gonna want to servethem or or take them.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:14):
People are like, oh, you're gonna you're gonna
surrender your your your federalIEP rights, you know, and some
people go peak.
And other people go, they'rethey're worthless anyway.
Maybe there's there's diversityof opinion amongst this, amongst
special needs kids uh families,so I don't want to represent
(20:36):
otherwise.
But you know, there are a lot ofpeople that those rights aren't
really, you know, they're notrights unless anyone's gonna
enforce them, right?
Right.
And then like, you know, there'sresearch that shows, Kelly, that
the number one reason thatparents want to switch schools
by a wide margin is bullying.
Okay.
And bullying is something thatcan happen to any kid in any
(20:59):
school, right?
But it happens to special needskids more than the general
population.
Okay.
And, you know, a lot of schoolchoice debates, you know, wind
up getting into like, you know,ridiculous discussions about
regression coefficients andaverage test scores and blah,
blah, blah.
Right.
(21:19):
But the reality is that thereare people who need an exit, and
they need it right now.
And it's not, you can be, youcould be a kid that is at a
school with super high averagetest scores, and it could be not
working for you socially, andyou could be bullying, and it is
and you are not personallyflourishing, right?
And you need an exit, right?
(21:41):
So, I mean, it's a wonderfulthing that in Arizona, every
single kid has ESA as an exitoption, whether they use it or
not.
It's there.
Okay.
It is it is a tool, you know,break glass in case of
emergency.
We have that in Arizona, andwe're really blessed to have it,
(22:02):
in my view.
SPEAKER_01 (22:03):
It's powerful.
Okay.
So we've talked about sort ofthe demographics initially
looking at, you know, reasonswhy eligibility was less than
universal.
One of them kind of focused onspecial needs, one of them
focused on income levels andpoverty and things like that.
So are there any other, youknow, as as we sort of try to
give our listeners a, you know,a picture of school choice in
(22:23):
America right now?
I recently did one too, a kindof infographic where you see the
map and you see it over timecoloring in.
And just like you say, it's, youknow, one state, Arizona, and it
and it was light-colored becauseonly certain kids could get it
back then.
Right.
And then over time that becomesmore light-colored states, and
now a couple dark-colored stateswhere you're really truly
universal.
(22:43):
But can you share, you know, Iuh let's try to give people a
paint a picture for them of likewhat is the current status and
and then where do we see thatgoing?
SPEAKER_02 (22:52):
Boy, okay.
So there are like 82 differentprivate choice programs in the
country last time I checked.
It's a lot.
Most of them are small, youknow, they're you know, some of
them are focused on individualschool districts like the
Cleveland Voucher Program, theMilwaukee voucher program.
(23:15):
In reality, there's a very smallhandful of states that have
choice programs that are willgrow with demand.
So this is a this is a crew, wewe we won the battle over should
everyone have a chance at ascholarship, right?
Universal.
But there are other issues thatare also very important, right?
If your child applies for theprogram, is there going to be
(23:38):
funding for them, or do they gointo a lottery and creating a
wait list?
Okay.
Arizona's ESA program does nothave a wait list, right?
It is funded on a formula basis.
However many eligible kids applyis how many are going to get
funded.
That is also true in Florida andin West Virginia and in Arkansas
(24:02):
for ESA programs.
There's also a a couple offormula funded, you know, sort
of voucher programs around thecountry.
So the number of states thatreally have a demand-driven
choice program that, you know,that operates in that way, and
that's really what you need tohave something that has the
potential to drive systemicchange.
Most of the 82 programs areniche programs that don't have
(24:27):
the, you know, like it's notthat they they aren't acorns.
They could be improved, theycould be fixed, but you know,
the reality is is at this point,I would say we have a lot of
acorns, we don't have very manyoaks, right?
And so I think the which is notto say that we shouldn't help
people plant acorns in new innew states, right?
(24:47):
But at this point, I think thereturn on investment would be
much larger for actually, youknow, for instance, if Texas's
giant acorn actually turned intoan oak, you know, there's
there's twice as many kids inTexas as in Florida.
And Florida has about fortypercent of the total private
choice students in the entirecountry.
(25:09):
And it's because they havewell-designed programs, very
high-functioning advocacy over asp you know, a span of decades,
right?
We're talking about a task forHercules and a large student
population.
We we've kind of been JohnnyAppleseed in the choice
movement, and we might want tothink about turning into
arborists where it's can youlet's let's talk about the
(25:31):
perfect oak tree.
SPEAKER_01 (25:32):
I mean, what what would uh or the program rules
that would allow I've heard yousay already universal, so every
kid in the state can get it.
Yeah.
I've heard you just introduceformula funded or
algorithmically funded, whichmeans you know, I think there
are states where it's like,yeah, we're gonna allow anybody
to apply, but there's only Idon't know, pick a number,$10
million available for thisprogram, and that that
(25:52):
corresponds to, you know, somenumber of kids that get it, some
fraction of kids.
So, you know, those two I thinkhave landed.
Give us like the full picture ofwhat what as a botanist here,
what creates the conditions fora great tree to grow?
SPEAKER_02 (26:06):
So um Ed Choice, Robert Imlo from Ed Choice wrote
a piece about this a few monthsago, and I I wholeheartedly
agree with what he wrote.
The key the crucial elementswould be number one, universal
eligibility, so everyoneeveryone can apply, and number
two, formula funding, soeveryone who applies and wants
to participate can participate.
(26:27):
No wait lists, no lotteries.
And then the third would bemultiple uses, right?
SPEAKER_01 (26:34):
Okay.
What you can use the money on.
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
What you can use the money on.
Like I love private schools,private schools play this super
vital role in the choicemovement.
They're great, we want tosupport them, we don't want to
support them exclusively, right?
One way to think about this isthat uh a voucher program can
give you an opt-out of thepublic school system.
(26:57):
An ESA program just gives you anopt-out of the public school and
the private school system,right?
SPEAKER_01 (27:02):
Like, well, it this is interesting you say this
because we talk to parents allthe time, right?
And and microschools, of course,are this is a new format.
This is things are possiblehere, and there's pluralism.
So lots of each microschoollooks different, and that's like
part of the beauty of all ofthis.
We hear people say things like,I went to this public school, my
parents script, you know, we wescrimped and saved to put our
kids in, you know, whatever.
(27:24):
We move into this neighborhood,we went to this school.
We moved here for the school.
So that's kind of chapter one.
We didn't like the school, so wescrimped and saved, and we moved
our kid to this private school.
That's chapter two.
And unfortunately, the privateschool wasn't that different
from the public school.
I mean, it was like a lot of thesame types of structural things.
And this, of course, is notgovernment mandated in many
(27:44):
states.
Like in Arizona, private schoolsdon't have the government
telling them you have to dothings exactly the same way.
It's it's just kind of a thenature of the beast.
I think, you know, you there'slimited scope and vision.
And, you know, I think peopleare at a moment in time where
they're ready for moreinnovation.
We think about how we do, youknow, I I just witnessed in the
last three years everybody goingto Google first and now
(28:07):
everybody going to ChatGPTfirst.
I mean, that's a massive swingin the way we do things, but
that type of swing is nothappening when you think of like
where does your kid, what isyour kid getting in the day?
SPEAKER_02 (28:17):
Yeah.
There's not very many peoplearound the country that really
grasp like the potential of whatit is we're really up to here.
A demand-driven education systemwith co-creation between
families and educators.
Okay.
So one of the analogies I liketo use on this is like imagine a
(28:39):
potter at a pottery wheel.
There are two hands that aregoing to shape this creation.
And the one hand are theeducators, right?
And I'm sure Prinda has had it'slike experienced this story
firsthand because I know I hearit all around the country.
People go in education for theright reasons, right?
Nobody wakes up one day andsays, you know what, I really
(29:01):
want to do is be a cog in somekind of giant bureaucratic
system where I systematicallylet, for instance, young
elementary kids down and don'tteach them how to read properly
and set them on a course to afailure in life.
No one.
No one wakes up in the morningwanting to do that.
Happens every day in thiscountry, but no one wants it,
right?
It's not why you go intoeducation.
(29:22):
Okay.
How many times, Kelly, have youcome across someone that wants
to be one of your guides thatused to be a public school
teacher, was actually quite goodat it, but got treated very
badly, got very frustrated bythe bureaucracy, and and was
just like dying to go out and dotheir own thing and be in
control of an authenticeducation community where they
(29:45):
can build relationships withtheir kids.
So the the one hand of thepotter solder the pottery
analogy Are the teachers, okay?
And the other are the families,right?
And together they shape whatbecomes the K-12 system.
(30:09):
And we have been doing this inArizona gradually, not suddenly,
not not radically, notovernight, but since 1994,
right?
When Arizona families took ashine to classical education,
they wind up getting moreclassical education schools and
not just great hearts, but nowthere are other CMOs that do
(30:30):
that.
But when they want less ofsomething, they wind up getting
less of something, right?
There's approximately the CommonSense Institute of Arizona has
measured this, there'sapproximately 450,000 extra
spaces for kids in Arizonadistrict schools right now.
Market is telling themsomething, right?
(30:51):
And we have some really gooddistrict schools in Arizona, and
part of those 450,000 arebecause kids are in different
district schools, right?
This isn't just like districtversus charter, district versus
private, right?
It's actually district versusdistrict more than anything
else.
It's the biggest form of schoolchoice in Arizona.
Because there's actually thedivide in Arizona is between
high-demand schools and lowdemand schools, right?
(31:13):
Right.
And so, like the idea that wecan get more of what we want, we
can change our minds, we canhave new types of schools.
People have to experience this.
They they choose schools throughsocial networks, right?
They they get recommendationsfrom friends and families and
church members and things likethat, right?
It's really a an amazing thing.
(31:33):
And I think the biggest possiblewinners could be the teachers,
right?
In a in a fully realized systemlike this, I the teachers will
be in a lot more control, right?
And they don't have to be cogsin this machine that we know is
not working for a lot of kids.
SPEAKER_01 (31:51):
Well, we've definitely seen that the
educators that, you know, reallygo from that story of just I
felt trapped, I felt frustrated,I felt burnt out, to I'm free
and I can create what I want tocreate.
Uh and their passion isincredible and their ability to
contribute.
I mean, I don't mean tochallenge the the statement of
the the greatest winner, but youknow, I I would put a small
third hand on that pot, which isthe child themselves.
(32:14):
And um, you know, and I meet Imeet these kids and I just get
to see, I mean, I hear itdirectly from them, I hear it
from their parents, just goingfrom a world of for some reason
or another, just hating it, justreally suffering through uh what
we this institution we callschool, again, for no one's
fault.
In many cases, it's not like oneperson was just antagonizing
(32:35):
them.
It's just a combination ofthings.
And and now I can get to adifferent situation, a different
environment, and love it.
And you see what's possible thenin making that change, what that
means for them and their wholelives.
And yeah, this is the this iswhat I wake up in the morning
for every day.
And so I appreciate you know,you guys thinking about these
structural questions so that itallows allows for these types of
(32:57):
innovations to flourish.
SPEAKER_02 (32:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:58):
Okay, so we've got universal, anybody can get it.
We've got algorithmicallyfunded, meaning there's not just
arbitrary caps in in budget orallocation.
We've got use the money inflexible ways.
So it doesn't have to be justprivate school that you can go
to.
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:15):
I mean, what else would you add to that?
SPEAKER_02 (33:17):
Those those are the big ones.
I would also add, like basicallythe independent of uh, you know,
non-state options.
So like the what we don't wantto happen is like Henry Ford
said, you can have a Model T inany color you want as long as
it's black.
As long as it's black.
It's like, you know, there thereis a huge urge that we have
(33:38):
yielded to over many decades totry to standardize schools.
It didn't work out for us,right?
You know?
Right.
So we definitely like and andquite frankly, I think the best
way to secure this in the longrun is to deregulate the
district schools, right?
SPEAKER_01 (33:56):
Like you know, because that's the argument is
like, well, we have to play byall of these rules that are
ridiculous and they're hamperingour ability to help kids.
It's like, have you just stopand think, like, what if we took
those away instead of addingthose same rules to everyone
else?
SPEAKER_02 (34:08):
And and unfortunately, a lot of times
the people that say that sort ofthings will have been involved
in writing the rules in thefirst place.
The district justice system wasnot broken accidentally, it is
largely operating in the waythat serves its major
shareholders.
So the same people often thatwould complain about all the
rules and regulation when youwhen you propose getting rid of
(34:29):
them, they're the same peoplewho stand up.
We couldn't possibly do that.
SPEAKER_01 (34:33):
I see.
I see.
Yeah.
Well, but that that I it's aninteresting idea.
Can I can I jump a little bit?
You you've brought up WestVirginia, and um, it's
interesting as you list thesestates that have the types of
ESA programs that kind of checkthese boxes.
You you said Arizona, obviously.
I started in Arizona, still ourbiggest state for prend to
microschools.
Florida, we we had one microschool in Florida, a really
(34:53):
dedicated person that was justhaving parents kind of pay a
little bit out of pocket and shewas making all kinds of
sacrifices for years.
And then all of a sudden, thethe you know, Universal opens
up, the the Pep Scholarship andsome of these new new programs.
And um, you know, we went fromone to 50 microschools in
Florida kind of overnight.
And so you see the marketresponding to the right policies
(35:15):
being created.
Arkansas right now is ourcurrent.
I mean, we're just getting everyday, we're getting people from
Arkansas that are learning aboutthis and they're recognizing the
policy exists.
You said West Virginia, and Iwill say we we had that in West
Virginia.
They they've done universal forquite a while.
What we ran into was the guidescouldn't make it work
financially.
And the reason is the fundinglevel.
(35:36):
So let's talk a little bit aboutthat as a potential criteria in
a good, you know, I know theEdChoice rankings basically just
says how much of the total ofwhat districts get do you get
under ESA and Arizona?
All right, Matt.
So this has been great.
We've been talking all about ESAprograms, the ideal criteria
specifications, what we'd liketo see in a well-designed school
(35:58):
choice program.
One of the things I wanted toget back to, I think you had
mentioned West Virginia, and Iwant to talk about our
experience there when WestVirginia was actually the first
state to pass universal schoolchoice.
I think it was way back in 2020.
So they were ahead of Arizona,ahead of Florida.
They passed this thing andeveryone's excited.
We've tried to open microschoolsin West Virginia and it has not
(36:19):
worked.
And here's why it's the fundinglevel.
So they they set the number atsomething like$4,000 per
student, which is just afraction of what the state might
spend on education.
But you know, as they did thatnumber, that works to buy some
textbooks or for a family to puttogether resources, but to
actually coordinate amicroschool and to have as part
(36:39):
of that microschool a paidlearning guide that is earning
income as part of running thisthing, the numbers just didn't
work out.
I I I wondered if we could addthat to our list of ideal
program criteria.
If you have any thoughts onfunding levels in education, in
school choice specifically.
SPEAKER_02 (36:56):
Yeah, we we really shouldn't be making second-class
citizens out of uh people basedon where they go to school,
right?
You know, I mean if uh if ifgoing to a microschool or
homeschooling or going to aprivate school um satisfies the
mandatory attendance requirementof whatever state we're talking
(37:17):
about, then the funding levelshould be equal.
Right.
Yeah, we shouldn't bediscriminating against classes
of students based on how theywant to satisfy that
requirement.
So there's a tricky process hereof you know sort of balancing
supply and demand.
And we don't always get it rightand we learn lessons over time
(37:39):
and hopefully we makecorrections, right?
But yeah, I think that thatwe've seen an unfortunate trend
around the country of a a lot ofstates that'll, you know, say
for instance includehomeschoolers, but say, Yeah,
we're just gonna give you liketwo thousand dollars or
something like that, right?
I I really don't think like inyou know, we both live in
(38:00):
Arizona, Kelly.
You know, our constitution hassomething called the Equal
Privileges and ImmunitiesClause, right?
Which is, you know, kind ofbased on the um equal protection
clause in the federalconstitution.
You know, saying that thesestudents are worth, you know,
X10, X14 sometimes more moneythan these students over here
(38:20):
probably doesn't square withthat as a principle.
SPEAKER_01 (38:24):
That's such a common sense way to look at it,
although I'm I'm shocked thatI've never heard it anywhere
talked about in terms of justfundamental access to this
education, and and we all arepaying taxes.
I think the thought is maybe,well, those people are fine not
getting any of that tax moneyback, you know, paying taxes for
the rest of the kids to go toschool, but for their own kids,
(38:44):
if they choose to homeschool,they're fine with zero.
So giving them$2,000 is great,you know, or$4,000 in the case
of West Virginia.
I think it's interesting to say,yeah, well, if this is education
for them, if we believe that,and maybe that's a question,
maybe not everybody believesthat, but it's uh I think worth
it's worth having thatdiscussion.
You you talked about aconstitution.
(39:05):
I think that's an interestingpoint.
So um I think you're probablyaware of this.
There have been challenges inthe courts to some of these
programs.
And I think most recently theUtah program was held up by an
appeals judge in the statesaying this program's
unconstitutional.
The Constitution of Utah sayssomething about every kid gets
an education.
And I think the interpretationwas by doing this, somehow that
(39:28):
doesn't meet that criteria.
I I'm thoughts on any of this,or if you've followed the the
court cases.
I know there was a big federalone in Ohio years ago, and and
since then it's been a tactic bypeople, I think, trying to stop
these programs from from goingforward.
But any any thoughts on this?
Is this a discussion we shouldbe having?
SPEAKER_02 (39:47):
Most most states have some sort of language with
their state constitutions thatrequire the creation of a
basically a public educationsystem.
But then they they don'ttypically prohibit you from
doing other things besides that,right?
So it's you know, we we've had anumber of programs over the
years that would lose at somestage of the game and then
(40:08):
ultimately prevail on what itreally mattered.
I'm hopeful that's what will bethe case in in Utah.
You know, it was after the uhgosh, early on in the days of
the school voucher movement,there was a there was an
attorney for the NEA, and itwas, I guess it was after they
lost um the the federal bigfederal voucher decision in
(40:29):
2002.
And he he very famously said,Well, I guess we're just gonna
have to go litigate these MickeyMouse provisions and state
constitutions.
And that's that's kind of whatthey've been doing since that's
the strategy, litigate MickeyMouse provisions.
SPEAKER_01 (40:46):
I love it.
I I learn from you every time Italk, and I appreciate you just
taking a minute to share with meand our listeners what this
landscape looks like as you sortof zoom out and just you know, I
know you write about this,you've been thinking about this
for a long time.
You kind of consider the moment,consider what the next five to
ten years might look like.
Paint us a picture for for whereyou see all of this going, and
(41:06):
and then let's close on why thatmatters.
Why we do this work in the firstplace.
I know we've hit on thatalready.
SPEAKER_02 (41:13):
Yeah, I mean, like I I think I've mentioned before
the the Wired magazine articlein 2015 about the techies who
hacked school, right?
It was basically about the riseof home school co-ops and
Silicon Valley.
And when I read that article, Imean we were maybe like four
years into the ESA program inArizona, and it was shocking to
(41:34):
me because what I was reading islike, oh, these people are
already doing it, right?
They're just doing it with theirown money, right?
And there was there's a wholerich academic literature on on
what is called enrichmentspending, right?
And upper income people havebeen spending more and more on
this over time, up to like in2006 it was like$9,000 per kid,
(41:57):
right, amongst high incomepeople, right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:00):
9,000 just on enrichment.
SPEAKER_02 (42:02):
What started to happen just on enrichment per
kid.
Wow.
Right.
Now uh lower income people alsodo some of this, but their their
trend is flat.
Yeah.
So what started to happen beforeCOVID-19 is that enrichment
started to disrupt custodialschooling, right?
And uh COVID-19 accelerated thattrend, right?
(42:26):
And starting a great deal ofexperimentation in school
models, including Printa.
And I don't think that's goingto stop.
I really think the genie is outof the bottle on that.
And we have kind of moved intoan era of education
self-reliance.
Like people, the this is the bigtakeaway from the COVID-19
(42:48):
pandemic is that you need to be,as a as a parent, you need to be
prepared to take care of yourfamily yourself, right?
You cannot necessarily rely uponthe system, despite the fact
that it's a sunk cost and youhave to pay for it.
You know, you don't want to relyupon it.
In fact, that's exactly whatthat enrichment trend, you know,
(43:08):
this was telling us beforehand,right?
It was most of those people werestill enrolling their kid in a
custodial school, but theyweren't totally relying on that
school, right?
They were also doing mathnesium,they were also doing coupon,
they were doing summer camps andwhatnot.
And that process, the SiliconValley families had basically
(43:30):
decided, well, what if thatbecame school, right?
The project-based learning andall that kind of stuff.
So it's a very fascinating timeto be involved in K-12.
I think we're going to come outof the other end of this with a
with a much more pluralistic andsort of vibrant system that gets
away from the kind of 19thcentury factory model.
(43:52):
And uh I look forward to it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:54):
It's amazing.
Well, Matt Ladner, I appreciateyou.
Thanks again for being here onthe podcast and just sharing
your insights and wisdom.
I know you've put a lot intobuilding these positions and all
this knowledge that you have,both about how the process works
and the policy design, but alsowhat's going on in the market
and what and what the worldlooks like right now.
I think both of us would sayit's a good time to be
(44:14):
optimistic and just to seefamilies stepping up and taking
the keys to the car and saying,let's uh let's expect more.
What what could humans be if weall took learning more
seriously?
And it wasn't just thisperfunctory thing, you know,
that that we go through.
So I'm excited to be part ofthat and appreciate you again.
Thanks, thanks for taking thetime.
And I guess just as we wrap up,one question I'll just bring on
(44:36):
you is somebody in your lifewho's kindled the love of
learning for you.
Can you think back to somebodylike that?
SPEAKER_02 (44:42):
Well, I could think of a lot of people like that.
Uh Kate, you know, teachers frommy high school, professors I've
had along the way.
Yeah.
My parents.
Yeah.
No, it's but there's there'sbeen a lot of people.
But uh, I've had one Englishteacher in high school that
really had a very profoundpositive effect on me.
I was, you know, kind of amiscreant uh ne'er do well high
(45:03):
school student, and I think shehelped straighten me out and put
me on the right path.
SPEAKER_01 (45:08):
Do you remember her name?
Let's let's give her JanetMcDonald.
Shout out if you're listening.
That's amazing.
And then where can our listenersgo to learn more about you and
your work?
SPEAKER_02 (45:17):
Um, you can follow me on Twitter or X now, it's at
Matthew Ladner, or you can go tothe Next Steps blog, which I
edit and write for, or you cango to the Heritage Foundation,
where we have a whole section oneducation uh right there too.
SPEAKER_01 (45:32):
Thanks, Matt.
Have a great day, and and thankseverybody for listening.
Cheer.
SPEAKER_00 (45:37):
The Kindled Podcast is brought to you by Prenda.
Prenda makes it easy to startand run an amazing microschool
based on all the ideas we talkabout here on the Kindled
Podcast.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media at PrendaLearn.
And if you'd like moreinformation about starting a
microschool, just go toPrenda.com.
Thanks for listening, andremember to keep Kindling.
Every single person that provides services to my
child is directly accountable tome.
I hire them and I can fire themand I will, right?
And to me, that's trueaccountability.
And like I'm sitting in theaudience with like this fat tear
joy going down my stair.
It was the most beautiful thingI'd ever seen.
SPEAKER_01 (00:22):
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to the Kindled Podcast.
I'm your host, Kelly Smith.
Today we'll be talking to MattLadner.
Matt's been writing abouteducation policy for decades.
He's been instrumental in thecreation of school choice
policies all over the country,starting in Arizona in 2011.
He blogs at Next Steps, and heis a senior advisor at the
(00:43):
Heritage Foundation's Center forEducation Policy.
Previously, Matt held roles withthe Arizona Charter Schools
Association, Chamber ofCommerce, EdChoice, and
Reimagine Ed.
Matt Ladner is a graduate of theUniversity of Texas at Austin
and received a master's degreeand a PhD in political science
from the University of Houston.
Matt's insightful about allthings ed policy and politics.
(01:07):
He has a really good pulse onhow the system works, what the
ideas are that will push schoolchoice forward.
And he's been on the ground.
So I hope he's able to sharesome great insights as we get
into this discussion.
I hope you'll enjoy looking intohow these policies work and what
some of the objections are andwhat a great ESA program might
(01:27):
actually be.
So with that, let's get into it.
Welcome, Matt Ladner.
Matt, hi, welcome from Texas.
Howdy.
Now you're in Texas, and todayis the day after the Texas
legislature passes a prettysignificant thing.
The univer the ESA program thatcan you just share a little bit
about what you're seeing inTexas?
And then I really want to expandthat to what you're seeing
(01:49):
nationwide.
I just saw a post from you whereyou you put a map with lots of
states colored in.
So let's uh let's talk aboutwhat's going on in Texas and
what's happening with the ESAprograms.
And maybe just quickly to start,give our audience just a quick
reminder of what ESA programsare.
SPEAKER_02 (02:04):
Yeah, so an ESA is an account-based school choice
program, you know, and it'sdifferent than say a voucher.
A voucher is basically a couponyou can use to go to a private
school.
An ESA can do that.
Like you think of it as anaccount.
You can only use it on educationpurposes, but those education
purposes go above and beyond uhprivate school tuition.
(02:26):
You could buy individual publicschool courses, you can uh use
them for college coursework, youcould hire tutors.
Uh, special needs families areusing it for therapists.
Um, and the idea is to givefamilies the maximum amount of
flexibility in order to makesure that the best that we can
that they get the kind ofeducation they need.
We started the first ESA programin the Arizona at Tebbin.
(02:47):
And since 2022, uh they'vespread all over that, you know,
there's been a lot of programsnow, and the latest is Texas.
Texas isn't quite uh all the waypast uh goal line now, but it
they it did pass the housefloor, which has always been the
first time a private choiceprogram has ever passed the
Texas House floor.
(03:08):
Uh it'll be a billion-dollar ayear program, it'll be the
biggest first-year program inthe history of the movement.
Um and so it's a pretty excitingtime for the school choice
movement.
You know, the uh the map's got alot of color on it now.
In 2022, as late as 2022, therewere no states with universal
(03:29):
eligibility for a private choiceprogram.
None.
And now there's I can't I'velost track.
Sixteen, maybe?
SPEAKER_01 (03:36):
Yeah.
unknown (03:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
Well, everything's bigger in Texas, as they say.
So a billion dollars a year isis a big deal.
I know some of the debate on thethe House floor kind of
mentioned that that's stillonly, you know, one percent of
the kids in Texas or somethinglike that.
It's a fraction of the overallspending in the system.
So just to keep that inperspective, it sounds like a
huge number to those of us insmaller states.
Uh Texas is just a really bigstate with a lot of people and
(04:00):
it's growing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:01):
Yeah.
I mean, so for some perspective,to be fair to the Texans, the
first year of the ESA program inArizona, we had 151 kids.
Right.
You know, so the idea is that,you know, these programs tend to
start small, but they, you know,if you design them correctly,
they can flourish and becomebigger.
So that that will be the taskahead.
(04:23):
Texas certainly Texans need anddeserve a program that can grow
with demand.
This current bill is not yetthat, but we've had a lot of
bills that start, you know, youstart and build on it, right?
So that's where we are withTexas.
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
Just a shout out to the Matt's blog and and some of
his writing.
He's really one of theinfluential and and just
thoughtful voices in thisindustry.
So as you listen to thispodcast, you're gonna want more
from Matt Loudner.
Check out his information.
We'll put it in the show notes.
But Matt, you just recently in ain a post kind of talked about
Texas and you use this phrase,you know, acorns and and great
(04:58):
oak trees.
And I think what you're talkingabout here is, you know,
starting with something that ofcourse it looks like an oak tree
to those of us in Arizona.
87,000 kids over here in Arizonathat are doing this program now.
But you know, that number of abillion dollars a year is um,
it's it's big.
I mean, that's a that's a bigstart that will hopefully be
able to grow.
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
It's a very big acorn.
SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
That's the way I would describe it.
Yes, yes, exactly.
A big acorn that's gonna grow inan even bigger tree.
Well, awesome.
Can you give us so you you know,you kind of mentioned a picture
of the United States with theseprograms kind of appearing?
You used a word universal.
I think this is important forlisteners to understand.
Can you kind of just cut talkabout what that even means, what
universal is, and how the 2011start to all of this was not
(05:43):
universal, and then you know,kind of the journey to get to
where we are today?
SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
Yeah.
So for the first 20-somethingyears of the school choice
movement, we were very focusedon means-tested bills, um, or
meaning that like you had tohave a certain be below a
certain family income toqualify.
And we did that for obvious andvery, you know, compelling moral
reasons.
You know, they're they're thelow-income kids tend to be in
(06:08):
the worst schooling situations,have the greatest needs and
whatnot.
But eventually there was a shiftin perspective.
And, you know, the bottom lineis that everyone pays their
school taxes, right?
And while equity concerns arevery important, and we we can
reflect them in things like, forinstance, funding levels, right?
We could give low-income kidsmore money in an ESA account.
(06:32):
We should not, however, berestricting eligibility, right?
And you and in fact, you look atevery other type of education
program you can think of, theidea of means testing it would
be completely outrageous, right?
Like, sorry, Billy, your mom anddad paid too many taxes, so
you're not allowed to go to theUniversity of Arizona is a
(06:54):
sentence that no one is evergoing to speak because it's
really, really profoundly dumb.
Like, you know, if theUniversity of Arizona said that,
they would instantly earnthemselves the animosity of a
lot of people that pay a lot oftaxes, right?
And even people that don't wantto send their kids to the
University of Arizona would bedeeply offended by the notion
(07:16):
that they're not allowed to sendtheir kid to the University of
Arizona after paying Arizonataxes, right?
So this is a very basicprinciple.
The New Dealers figured this outin the in the 30s with Social
Security, right?
The public is always so in thesame piece of legislation, the
United States government createdSocial Security and a program
called AFDC.
(07:36):
AFDC was only for low-incomepeople, and the public grew to
have a deep level of suspicionof hostility towards this
program.
Social Security, everyone paidin, everyone gets, and it's
still the third rail of Americanpolitics, right?
You don't have to be like apolitical super genius to figure
this out, right?
And so one of the big shiftsthat explains the huge uh amount
(08:00):
of research success in thechoice movement is just that.
We're giving this stuff, andit's right there in the polls.
If you poll the American publicand say, Do you support a
program that gives, you know,people below this income level
school choice, you'll get acertain amount of soap support.
If you say, you know, we'regonna give a program that that
gives everybody that wants toapply for it access, the support
(08:23):
goes up.
Well, of course it does, right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
It just it just hits logic in a different way.
It's a di it's a differentsentiment.
Like, yeah, you would make thatavailable to everybody.
SPEAKER_02 (08:33):
Even low-income people support the universal
program more.
Right.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (08:39):
You know, because they know you can see it's
interesting to hear you talkabout this because uh there's
been a lot, I think, especiallyin the last couple of years,
even in the general discussionsabout this kind of um, you know,
political elite.
There's this elitism that kindof comes from a play.
And from that seat, I just wantto sort of empathize with how we
got to means tested eligibilityrequirements.
(08:59):
From that seat, you might havesaid something like, Hey, rich
people already have access toschool choice, right?
They can send their kids to aprivate school, they can afford
that, they can move, which manyof them do.
And I think, you know, one ofthe great ironies of this
movement is some of the loudestvoices that are kind of on the
liberal elite category.
These people are saying we don'twant school choice to exist, and
(09:22):
at the same time moving toexpensive neighborhoods, sending
their kids to private schools.
So they have it, right?
And and I think that discrepancymay be part of like why we got
to this.
But it is, I think what you'repointing out, it's fundamentally
elitist and it's patronizing alittle bit to people to say,
hey, we're gonna do, you know,create these programs that are
(09:43):
just for you all, and the restof us can, you know, do the
somehow better way or somethinglike that.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (09:49):
The the school choice movement should should
absolutely view itself as as uhin part a constituency building
exercise.
And no social movement worth itssalt starts off with the premise
like, oh, we don't want thosepeople.
Right?
Like if if you're you know, andwe used to say this, I used to
(10:10):
say this, oh, what you justsaid, like, oh, it, you know,
those those Scottsdale people,they already have school choice,
right?
They bought their way intoScottsdale, they could afford
private school tuition.
If the question is, do you wantScottsdale soccer mom in your
coalition?
Let me tell everyone in thecountry very clearly right now
the answer is yes, you do.
You want everybody in yourcoalition, but you also want
(10:32):
her, right?
Uh that that woman is a fiercecreature.
I've seen Scottsdale soccer momswalk into committee hearings and
there is the Arizona legislatureand have the entire committee
melt.
She has a lot of social andpolitical capital.
She pays a lot of taxes.
So, like, what's the case forlike completely discriminating
against her and forcing her topay for a program that she's not
(10:53):
allowed to participate in?
But we finally got over that,right?
But we've made a lot of progresssince then.
SPEAKER_01 (10:59):
So there's a second wave of eligibility requirements
that was heavily involved inArizona's history.
And I've kind of lived thissince I started my first micro
school in 2018 in my house overhere in Mesa, Arizona.
And since that time, but evenbefore that, I was kind of
monitoring discussions in thelegislature.
There was a, as you know,universal ESA expansion that was
(11:20):
passed and then went toreferendum through kind of a
petition and then it lost in theballots.
And so we were kind of insteadworking in and around a district
and charter schools and doingthings differently to make the
program accessible.
At the same time, you know,we're watching this ESA program
and thinking, okay, so who getswho actually in reality gets to
do it?
(11:40):
And this is, you know, it's aninteresting discussion.
You're bringing up constituencybuilding and some of these
things that, you know, I'm not apolitical activist, I don't
think this way, but I thinkyou're right to, you know,
recognize that's what's goingon.
So maybe this is anotherconstituency conversation, but
there's a there was another setof criteria around basically
special needs.
You know, it was if you have anindividualized education plan,
(12:03):
an IEP, which is what the schoolsystem at large has put in place
to phenomenally help kids withspecial learning challenges.
I think in practice it's becomemuch more of a protect against
litigation in the realm of so ifyou have that piece of paper,
that then qualified you toparticipate in these ESA
programs.
Or if your brother had one, youcould, the sibling could go as
(12:25):
well.
Talk a little bit about thatfrom the same lens.
So that that was a anotherschool of thought in terms of
limiting eligibility.
And you still see this inprograms across the country.
Only special needs kids can doit.
SPEAKER_02 (12:37):
Yeah.
The first special needs choiceprogram passed in Florida in
1999.
Uh it was called the McKayScholarship Program.
It passed the Florida Senateunanimously because John McKay
uh was the Florida Senatepresident, sponsored the bill,
and a special needs dad.
Just for some background, thefederal legislation on special
needs education passed in 1975.
(12:59):
It's now called the IDEA.
It was important civil rightslegislation.
Before it passed, public schoolscould just flat out exclude
children from disabilities fromeven attending public schools,
but it has not been smoothsailing.
And in fact, while a lot ofpeople get what they need from
the public school system, Iwould say that in general, the
(13:23):
most dissatisfied and deeplydissatisfied group of people in
the public school system are theparents of special needs
children.
It is very difficult.
And some of these are due to theflaws and IDA, and some of it is
just practicality, right?
Can can every school hire thestaff they need to deal with
students with a very wide, anyschool of any size is going to
(13:48):
have a wide diverging set ofneeds that's difficult for the
school system to deal with,quite frankly.
I'm not saying it's impossibleor that they do as well as they
should necessarily.
Some do, some don't, right?
So when John McKay passed theMcKay Scholarship Program, it
grew very quickly in Florida.
And it basically just said, youknow, we're gonna give the state
(14:12):
money that would have gone tothe child's public school into a
voucher, and they could use thatto go to a private school.
Interestingly enough, the JohnMcKay Scholarship Program in
Florida led to the ESA inArizona.
As we passed a similar bill,voucher bill in Arizona when
Janet Napolitano was governor.
The Supreme Court struck itdown, okay, but left us a trail
(14:36):
of breadcrumbs that kind ofsaid, look, if there was more
than one way to spend this moneyother than just going to private
school, it might be okay.
And we were like, we shouldfollow that breadcrumb trail,
right?
And so I would say that some ofour most enthusiastic supporters
of the SA program are specialneeds families because it gives
them so many more options,right?
Um, this is not just going toabout going to private schools.
(15:00):
You can literally hire your owntherapists, right?
We have examples where familieskind of like join up together
and hire their own teacher,right?
If you you have, you know, a fewnumber, you know, I was like,
there are people that can makethat math work, right?
So it expands the universe ofoptions.
That's not to say thateverything is perfect, that
every every child is able tofind a good solution.
(15:24):
We also, at least in Arizona,remain with a very serious
problem where the biggest formof school choice is actually
open enrollment between districtschools.
And special needs students arecategorically excluded from that
in the public school system.
Um, you know, because federallaw only guarantees you access
to your zone district school ifit's a child with uh special
(15:48):
needs.
And the the district schools inArizona made it perfectly clear
like they are not interested intaking kids with disabilities.
So it's a very difficultsituation for a lot of families.
The ESA program is a tool thatsome families are using and that
special needs students areoverrepresented in the ESA
program.
We have a higher percentage ofspecial needs kids than the than
(16:10):
the than the district schoolsystem.
SPEAKER_01 (16:13):
Which says something, right?
That says something about what'sgoing on.
SPEAKER_02 (16:16):
Yeah.
I mean, in fact, I would argue,Kelly, that you know, the the
basis of the federal legislationis that a child with special
needs has an individualeducation plan, you know, air
quotes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I would argue that you can'treally have an individual
education plan unless you havecontrol over who is providing
services to your child.
Right.
(16:37):
Yeah, you can have a now that'snot to say that every IEP is
hollow or whatever, but a lot ofthem are.
And it's not that's not myopinion.
That's the opinion of thefamilies, right?
And you know, to be actually incontrol of this, right, is to be
able to like there was a greatone of our ESA moms, one of the
first year special needs mom,she was at a hearing in Arizona
(16:58):
where some of the opponents ofthe ESA program were were
grousing, right?
And she um she said, she got upto testify and she said, Well,
you gentlemen keep complainingabout there's no accountability.
There's no accountability inthis program.
She said, What I wanted to tellyou is that every single person
that provides services to mychild is directly accountable to
(17:21):
me.
I hire them and I can fire themand I will, right?
And to me, that's trueaccountability.
And like I'm sitting in the inthe audience with like this fat
tear joy going down my it wasthe most beautiful thing I'd
ever seen.
SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
Well, it's incredibly empowering for
somebody who has probably feltfor many years powerless, right?
I it's interesting you'retalking about IEPs.
So my experience with IEPs, Iknew nothing getting into when I
started my microschool.
Turns out I did have somespecial needs in my very first
class.
In 2019, Prendus started to kindof explode across Arizona.
And so I was meeting lots ofpeople from all parts of the
(18:01):
state and from all income levelsand backgrounds and rural and
urban.
And I'm I'm starting to justlisten and get to know these
people.
And very quickly, because wewere partnering with charter
schools, IEPs became uh, youknow, part of the lifeblood of
what we were doing.
So I was in these IEP meetingsand and what I realized is
there's basically two halves ofIEPs.
I don't know if they're equal inparts, but you know, one of the
(18:23):
halves is what you're talkingabout is extra services.
I've got a, you know, a kid witha speech deficiency, and they do
need someone to help themstructure, you know, the the
mouth in a way to perform andand pronounce the syllables of
the words.
And that's real.
That's there's real services,services around dyslexia,
services around autism andtherapies and things like that.
(18:45):
I will say there's a there's awhole other part that I wasn't
aware of.
And what it basically is, is acorrection against, they call it
accommodations or it's basicallya correction against a structure
that's too rigid, that'sdesigned for kind of big batches
and moving large groups throughat everybody at the same time.
(19:06):
And and it's things like letthem have more decisions in
their day, give them some moretime uh to finish an assignment
or a test, let them, you know,maybe you know, rearrange, like
there's some flexibility.
And it was interesting because Iwould look at these things and I
would see these requirements inthe IEP.
And I'm thinking, that's a funnything to require.
Like, why wouldn't you just givethat to everyone if possible?
(19:26):
And the microschool, of course,allowed me to do that.
So we had these really funnyconversations where they would
say, Well, you have to do this.
And I said, We do that for everykid.
Well, you have to do this, we dothat for every kid.
You have to do this.
You know what I mean?
And and I was like, Oh, this isthis is just it's fascinating
because it's a relic of, youknow, a system, a structure.
And again, this is never, it'snever like some teacher just
saying, I just want to punishyou.
(19:48):
It's it's like I have to becauseof this, this, and this.
And there's this federal law andstate interpretation, all these
things have piled up.
So, you know, I think everybodyfeels a little trapped by this
whole thing, but just the thefreedom of of that.
You know, I think the question,I've heard this as a criticism,
and we'll talk a little bitabout objections to ESA, that
somehow this would exclude.
You know, we got some articlesabout this, this would exclude
(20:08):
the special needs kids becausenow you're in this private world
and no one's gonna want to servethem or or take them.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:14):
People are like, oh, you're gonna you're gonna
surrender your your your federalIEP rights, you know, and some
people go peak.
And other people go, they'rethey're worthless anyway.
Maybe there's there's diversityof opinion amongst this, amongst
special needs kids uh families,so I don't want to represent
(20:36):
otherwise.
But you know, there are a lot ofpeople that those rights aren't
really, you know, they're notrights unless anyone's gonna
enforce them, right?
Right.
And then like, you know, there'sresearch that shows, Kelly, that
the number one reason thatparents want to switch schools
by a wide margin is bullying.
Okay.
And bullying is something thatcan happen to any kid in any
(20:59):
school, right?
But it happens to special needskids more than the general
population.
Okay.
And, you know, a lot of schoolchoice debates, you know, wind
up getting into like, you know,ridiculous discussions about
regression coefficients andaverage test scores and blah,
blah, blah.
Right.
(21:19):
But the reality is that thereare people who need an exit, and
they need it right now.
And it's not, you can be, youcould be a kid that is at a
school with super high averagetest scores, and it could be not
working for you socially, andyou could be bullying, and it is
and you are not personallyflourishing, right?
And you need an exit, right?
(21:41):
So, I mean, it's a wonderfulthing that in Arizona, every
single kid has ESA as an exitoption, whether they use it or
not.
It's there.
Okay.
It is it is a tool, you know,break glass in case of
emergency.
We have that in Arizona, andwe're really blessed to have it,
(22:02):
in my view.
SPEAKER_01 (22:03):
It's powerful.
Okay.
So we've talked about sort ofthe demographics initially
looking at, you know, reasonswhy eligibility was less than
universal.
One of them kind of focused onspecial needs, one of them
focused on income levels andpoverty and things like that.
So are there any other, youknow, as as we sort of try to
give our listeners a, you know,a picture of school choice in
(22:23):
America right now?
I recently did one too, a kindof infographic where you see the
map and you see it over timecoloring in.
And just like you say, it's, youknow, one state, Arizona, and it
and it was light-colored becauseonly certain kids could get it
back then.
Right.
And then over time that becomesmore light-colored states, and
now a couple dark-colored stateswhere you're really truly
universal.
(22:43):
But can you share, you know, Iuh let's try to give people a
paint a picture for them of likewhat is the current status and
and then where do we see thatgoing?
SPEAKER_02 (22:52):
Boy, okay.
So there are like 82 differentprivate choice programs in the
country last time I checked.
It's a lot.
Most of them are small, youknow, they're you know, some of
them are focused on individualschool districts like the
Cleveland Voucher Program, theMilwaukee voucher program.
(23:15):
In reality, there's a very smallhandful of states that have
choice programs that are willgrow with demand.
So this is a this is a crew, wewe we won the battle over should
everyone have a chance at ascholarship, right?
Universal.
But there are other issues thatare also very important, right?
If your child applies for theprogram, is there going to be
(23:38):
funding for them, or do they gointo a lottery and creating a
wait list?
Okay.
Arizona's ESA program does nothave a wait list, right?
It is funded on a formula basis.
However many eligible kids applyis how many are going to get
funded.
That is also true in Florida andin West Virginia and in Arkansas
(24:02):
for ESA programs.
There's also a a couple offormula funded, you know, sort
of voucher programs around thecountry.
So the number of states thatreally have a demand-driven
choice program that, you know,that operates in that way, and
that's really what you need tohave something that has the
potential to drive systemicchange.
Most of the 82 programs areniche programs that don't have
(24:27):
the, you know, like it's notthat they they aren't acorns.
They could be improved, theycould be fixed, but you know,
the reality is is at this point,I would say we have a lot of
acorns, we don't have very manyoaks, right?
And so I think the which is notto say that we shouldn't help
people plant acorns in new innew states, right?
(24:47):
But at this point, I think thereturn on investment would be
much larger for actually, youknow, for instance, if Texas's
giant acorn actually turned intoan oak, you know, there's
there's twice as many kids inTexas as in Florida.
And Florida has about fortypercent of the total private
choice students in the entirecountry.
(25:09):
And it's because they havewell-designed programs, very
high-functioning advocacy over asp you know, a span of decades,
right?
We're talking about a task forHercules and a large student
population.
We we've kind of been JohnnyAppleseed in the choice
movement, and we might want tothink about turning into
arborists where it's can youlet's let's talk about the
(25:31):
perfect oak tree.
SPEAKER_01 (25:32):
I mean, what what would uh or the program rules
that would allow I've heard yousay already universal, so every
kid in the state can get it.
Yeah.
I've heard you just introduceformula funded or
algorithmically funded, whichmeans you know, I think there
are states where it's like,yeah, we're gonna allow anybody
to apply, but there's only Idon't know, pick a number,$10
million available for thisprogram, and that that
(25:52):
corresponds to, you know, somenumber of kids that get it, some
fraction of kids.
So, you know, those two I thinkhave landed.
Give us like the full picture ofwhat what as a botanist here,
what creates the conditions fora great tree to grow?
SPEAKER_02 (26:06):
So um Ed Choice, Robert Imlo from Ed Choice wrote
a piece about this a few monthsago, and I I wholeheartedly
agree with what he wrote.
The key the crucial elementswould be number one, universal
eligibility, so everyoneeveryone can apply, and number
two, formula funding, soeveryone who applies and wants
to participate can participate.
(26:27):
No wait lists, no lotteries.
And then the third would bemultiple uses, right?
SPEAKER_01 (26:34):
Okay.
What you can use the money on.
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
What you can use the money on.
Like I love private schools,private schools play this super
vital role in the choicemovement.
They're great, we want tosupport them, we don't want to
support them exclusively, right?
One way to think about this isthat uh a voucher program can
give you an opt-out of thepublic school system.
(26:57):
An ESA program just gives you anopt-out of the public school and
the private school system,right?
SPEAKER_01 (27:02):
Like, well, it this is interesting you say this
because we talk to parents allthe time, right?
And and microschools, of course,are this is a new format.
This is things are possiblehere, and there's pluralism.
So lots of each microschoollooks different, and that's like
part of the beauty of all ofthis.
We hear people say things like,I went to this public school, my
parents script, you know, we wescrimped and saved to put our
kids in, you know, whatever.
(27:24):
We move into this neighborhood,we went to this school.
We moved here for the school.
So that's kind of chapter one.
We didn't like the school, so wescrimped and saved, and we moved
our kid to this private school.
That's chapter two.
And unfortunately, the privateschool wasn't that different
from the public school.
I mean, it was like a lot of thesame types of structural things.
And this, of course, is notgovernment mandated in many
(27:44):
states.
Like in Arizona, private schoolsdon't have the government
telling them you have to dothings exactly the same way.
It's it's just kind of a thenature of the beast.
I think, you know, you there'slimited scope and vision.
And, you know, I think peopleare at a moment in time where
they're ready for moreinnovation.
We think about how we do, youknow, I I just witnessed in the
last three years everybody goingto Google first and now
(28:07):
everybody going to ChatGPTfirst.
I mean, that's a massive swingin the way we do things, but
that type of swing is nothappening when you think of like
where does your kid, what isyour kid getting in the day?
SPEAKER_02 (28:17):
Yeah.
There's not very many peoplearound the country that really
grasp like the potential of whatit is we're really up to here.
A demand-driven education systemwith co-creation between
families and educators.
Okay.
So one of the analogies I liketo use on this is like imagine a
(28:39):
potter at a pottery wheel.
There are two hands that aregoing to shape this creation.
And the one hand are theeducators, right?
And I'm sure Prinda has had it'slike experienced this story
firsthand because I know I hearit all around the country.
People go in education for theright reasons, right?
Nobody wakes up one day andsays, you know what, I really
(29:01):
want to do is be a cog in somekind of giant bureaucratic
system where I systematicallylet, for instance, young
elementary kids down and don'tteach them how to read properly
and set them on a course to afailure in life.
No one.
No one wakes up in the morningwanting to do that.
Happens every day in thiscountry, but no one wants it,
right?
It's not why you go intoeducation.
(29:22):
Okay.
How many times, Kelly, have youcome across someone that wants
to be one of your guides thatused to be a public school
teacher, was actually quite goodat it, but got treated very
badly, got very frustrated bythe bureaucracy, and and was
just like dying to go out and dotheir own thing and be in
control of an authenticeducation community where they
(29:45):
can build relationships withtheir kids.
So the the one hand of thepotter solder the pottery
analogy Are the teachers, okay?
And the other are the families,right?
And together they shape whatbecomes the K-12 system.
(30:09):
And we have been doing this inArizona gradually, not suddenly,
not not radically, notovernight, but since 1994,
right?
When Arizona families took ashine to classical education,
they wind up getting moreclassical education schools and
not just great hearts, but nowthere are other CMOs that do
(30:30):
that.
But when they want less ofsomething, they wind up getting
less of something, right?
There's approximately the CommonSense Institute of Arizona has
measured this, there'sapproximately 450,000 extra
spaces for kids in Arizonadistrict schools right now.
Market is telling themsomething, right?
(30:51):
And we have some really gooddistrict schools in Arizona, and
part of those 450,000 arebecause kids are in different
district schools, right?
This isn't just like districtversus charter, district versus
private, right?
It's actually district versusdistrict more than anything
else.
It's the biggest form of schoolchoice in Arizona.
Because there's actually thedivide in Arizona is between
high-demand schools and lowdemand schools, right?
(31:13):
Right.
And so, like the idea that wecan get more of what we want, we
can change our minds, we canhave new types of schools.
People have to experience this.
They they choose schools throughsocial networks, right?
They they get recommendationsfrom friends and families and
church members and things likethat, right?
It's really a an amazing thing.
(31:33):
And I think the biggest possiblewinners could be the teachers,
right?
In a in a fully realized systemlike this, I the teachers will
be in a lot more control, right?
And they don't have to be cogsin this machine that we know is
not working for a lot of kids.
SPEAKER_01 (31:51):
Well, we've definitely seen that the
educators that, you know, reallygo from that story of just I
felt trapped, I felt frustrated,I felt burnt out, to I'm free
and I can create what I want tocreate.
Uh and their passion isincredible and their ability to
contribute.
I mean, I don't mean tochallenge the the statement of
the the greatest winner, but youknow, I I would put a small
third hand on that pot, which isthe child themselves.
(32:14):
And um, you know, and I meet Imeet these kids and I just get
to see, I mean, I hear itdirectly from them, I hear it
from their parents, just goingfrom a world of for some reason
or another, just hating it, justreally suffering through uh what
we this institution we callschool, again, for no one's
fault.
In many cases, it's not like oneperson was just antagonizing
(32:35):
them.
It's just a combination ofthings.
And and now I can get to adifferent situation, a different
environment, and love it.
And you see what's possible thenin making that change, what that
means for them and their wholelives.
And yeah, this is the this iswhat I wake up in the morning
for every day.
And so I appreciate you know,you guys thinking about these
structural questions so that itallows allows for these types of
(32:57):
innovations to flourish.
SPEAKER_02 (32:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:58):
Okay, so we've got universal, anybody can get it.
We've got algorithmicallyfunded, meaning there's not just
arbitrary caps in in budget orallocation.
We've got use the money inflexible ways.
So it doesn't have to be justprivate school that you can go
to.
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:15):
I mean, what else would you add to that?
SPEAKER_02 (33:17):
Those those are the big ones.
I would also add, like basicallythe independent of uh, you know,
non-state options.
So like the what we don't wantto happen is like Henry Ford
said, you can have a Model T inany color you want as long as
it's black.
As long as it's black.
It's like, you know, there thereis a huge urge that we have
(33:38):
yielded to over many decades totry to standardize schools.
It didn't work out for us,right?
You know?
Right.
So we definitely like and andquite frankly, I think the best
way to secure this in the longrun is to deregulate the
district schools, right?
SPEAKER_01 (33:56):
Like you know, because that's the argument is
like, well, we have to play byall of these rules that are
ridiculous and they're hamperingour ability to help kids.
It's like, have you just stopand think, like, what if we took
those away instead of addingthose same rules to everyone
else?
SPEAKER_02 (34:08):
And and unfortunately, a lot of times
the people that say that sort ofthings will have been involved
in writing the rules in thefirst place.
The district justice system wasnot broken accidentally, it is
largely operating in the waythat serves its major
shareholders.
So the same people often thatwould complain about all the
rules and regulation when youwhen you propose getting rid of
(34:29):
them, they're the same peoplewho stand up.
We couldn't possibly do that.
SPEAKER_01 (34:33):
I see.
I see.
Yeah.
Well, but that that I it's aninteresting idea.
Can I can I jump a little bit?
You you've brought up WestVirginia, and um, it's
interesting as you list thesestates that have the types of
ESA programs that kind of checkthese boxes.
You you said Arizona, obviously.
I started in Arizona, still ourbiggest state for prend to
microschools.
Florida, we we had one microschool in Florida, a really
(34:53):
dedicated person that was justhaving parents kind of pay a
little bit out of pocket and shewas making all kinds of
sacrifices for years.
And then all of a sudden, thethe you know, Universal opens
up, the the Pep Scholarship andsome of these new new programs.
And um, you know, we went fromone to 50 microschools in
Florida kind of overnight.
And so you see the marketresponding to the right policies
(35:15):
being created.
Arkansas right now is ourcurrent.
I mean, we're just getting everyday, we're getting people from
Arkansas that are learning aboutthis and they're recognizing the
policy exists.
You said West Virginia, and Iwill say we we had that in West
Virginia.
They they've done universal forquite a while.
What we ran into was the guidescouldn't make it work
financially.
And the reason is the fundinglevel.
(35:36):
So let's talk a little bit aboutthat as a potential criteria in
a good, you know, I know theEdChoice rankings basically just
says how much of the total ofwhat districts get do you get
under ESA and Arizona?
All right, Matt.
So this has been great.
We've been talking all about ESAprograms, the ideal criteria
specifications, what we'd liketo see in a well-designed school
(35:58):
choice program.
One of the things I wanted toget back to, I think you had
mentioned West Virginia, and Iwant to talk about our
experience there when WestVirginia was actually the first
state to pass universal schoolchoice.
I think it was way back in 2020.
So they were ahead of Arizona,ahead of Florida.
They passed this thing andeveryone's excited.
We've tried to open microschoolsin West Virginia and it has not
(36:19):
worked.
And here's why it's the fundinglevel.
So they they set the number atsomething like$4,000 per
student, which is just afraction of what the state might
spend on education.
But you know, as they did thatnumber, that works to buy some
textbooks or for a family to puttogether resources, but to
actually coordinate amicroschool and to have as part
(36:39):
of that microschool a paidlearning guide that is earning
income as part of running thisthing, the numbers just didn't
work out.
I I I wondered if we could addthat to our list of ideal
program criteria.
If you have any thoughts onfunding levels in education, in
school choice specifically.
SPEAKER_02 (36:56):
Yeah, we we really shouldn't be making second-class
citizens out of uh people basedon where they go to school,
right?
You know, I mean if uh if ifgoing to a microschool or
homeschooling or going to aprivate school um satisfies the
mandatory attendance requirementof whatever state we're talking
(37:17):
about, then the funding levelshould be equal.
Right.
Yeah, we shouldn't bediscriminating against classes
of students based on how theywant to satisfy that
requirement.
So there's a tricky process hereof you know sort of balancing
supply and demand.
And we don't always get it rightand we learn lessons over time
(37:39):
and hopefully we makecorrections, right?
But yeah, I think that thatwe've seen an unfortunate trend
around the country of a a lot ofstates that'll, you know, say
for instance includehomeschoolers, but say, Yeah,
we're just gonna give you liketwo thousand dollars or
something like that, right?
I I really don't think like inyou know, we both live in
(38:00):
Arizona, Kelly.
You know, our constitution hassomething called the Equal
Privileges and ImmunitiesClause, right?
Which is, you know, kind ofbased on the um equal protection
clause in the federalconstitution.
You know, saying that thesestudents are worth, you know,
X10, X14 sometimes more moneythan these students over here
(38:20):
probably doesn't square withthat as a principle.
SPEAKER_01 (38:24):
That's such a common sense way to look at it,
although I'm I'm shocked thatI've never heard it anywhere
talked about in terms of justfundamental access to this
education, and and we all arepaying taxes.
I think the thought is maybe,well, those people are fine not
getting any of that tax moneyback, you know, paying taxes for
the rest of the kids to go toschool, but for their own kids,
(38:44):
if they choose to homeschool,they're fine with zero.
So giving them$2,000 is great,you know, or$4,000 in the case
of West Virginia.
I think it's interesting to say,yeah, well, if this is education
for them, if we believe that,and maybe that's a question,
maybe not everybody believesthat, but it's uh I think worth
it's worth having thatdiscussion.
You you talked about aconstitution.
(39:05):
I think that's an interestingpoint.
So um I think you're probablyaware of this.
There have been challenges inthe courts to some of these
programs.
And I think most recently theUtah program was held up by an
appeals judge in the statesaying this program's
unconstitutional.
The Constitution of Utah sayssomething about every kid gets
an education.
And I think the interpretationwas by doing this, somehow that
(39:28):
doesn't meet that criteria.
I I'm thoughts on any of this,or if you've followed the the
court cases.
I know there was a big federalone in Ohio years ago, and and
since then it's been a tactic bypeople, I think, trying to stop
these programs from from goingforward.
But any any thoughts on this?
Is this a discussion we shouldbe having?
SPEAKER_02 (39:47):
Most most states have some sort of language with
their state constitutions thatrequire the creation of a
basically a public educationsystem.
But then they they don'ttypically prohibit you from
doing other things besides that,right?
So it's you know, we we've had anumber of programs over the
years that would lose at somestage of the game and then
(40:08):
ultimately prevail on what itreally mattered.
I'm hopeful that's what will bethe case in in Utah.
You know, it was after the uhgosh, early on in the days of
the school voucher movement,there was a there was an
attorney for the NEA, and itwas, I guess it was after they
lost um the the federal bigfederal voucher decision in
(40:29):
2002.
And he he very famously said,Well, I guess we're just gonna
have to go litigate these MickeyMouse provisions and state
constitutions.
And that's that's kind of whatthey've been doing since that's
the strategy, litigate MickeyMouse provisions.
SPEAKER_01 (40:46):
I love it.
I I learn from you every time Italk, and I appreciate you just
taking a minute to share with meand our listeners what this
landscape looks like as you sortof zoom out and just you know, I
know you write about this,you've been thinking about this
for a long time.
You kind of consider the moment,consider what the next five to
ten years might look like.
Paint us a picture for for whereyou see all of this going, and
(41:06):
and then let's close on why thatmatters.
Why we do this work in the firstplace.
I know we've hit on thatalready.
SPEAKER_02 (41:13):
Yeah, I mean, like I I think I've mentioned before
the the Wired magazine articlein 2015 about the techies who
hacked school, right?
It was basically about the riseof home school co-ops and
Silicon Valley.
And when I read that article, Imean we were maybe like four
years into the ESA program inArizona, and it was shocking to
(41:34):
me because what I was reading islike, oh, these people are
already doing it, right?
They're just doing it with theirown money, right?
And there was there's a wholerich academic literature on on
what is called enrichmentspending, right?
And upper income people havebeen spending more and more on
this over time, up to like in2006 it was like$9,000 per kid,
(41:57):
right, amongst high incomepeople, right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:00):
9,000 just on enrichment.
SPEAKER_02 (42:02):
What started to happen just on enrichment per
kid.
Wow.
Right.
Now uh lower income people alsodo some of this, but their their
trend is flat.
Yeah.
So what started to happen beforeCOVID-19 is that enrichment
started to disrupt custodialschooling, right?
And uh COVID-19 accelerated thattrend, right?
(42:26):
And starting a great deal ofexperimentation in school
models, including Printa.
And I don't think that's goingto stop.
I really think the genie is outof the bottle on that.
And we have kind of moved intoan era of education
self-reliance.
Like people, the this is the bigtakeaway from the COVID-19
(42:48):
pandemic is that you need to be,as a as a parent, you need to be
prepared to take care of yourfamily yourself, right?
You cannot necessarily rely uponthe system, despite the fact
that it's a sunk cost and youhave to pay for it.
You know, you don't want to relyupon it.
In fact, that's exactly whatthat enrichment trend, you know,
(43:08):
this was telling us beforehand,right?
It was most of those people werestill enrolling their kid in a
custodial school, but theyweren't totally relying on that
school, right?
They were also doing mathnesium,they were also doing coupon,
they were doing summer camps andwhatnot.
And that process, the SiliconValley families had basically
(43:30):
decided, well, what if thatbecame school, right?
The project-based learning andall that kind of stuff.
So it's a very fascinating timeto be involved in K-12.
I think we're going to come outof the other end of this with a
with a much more pluralistic andsort of vibrant system that gets
away from the kind of 19thcentury factory model.
(43:52):
And uh I look forward to it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:54):
It's amazing.
Well, Matt Ladner, I appreciateyou.
Thanks again for being here onthe podcast and just sharing
your insights and wisdom.
I know you've put a lot intobuilding these positions and all
this knowledge that you have,both about how the process works
and the policy design, but alsowhat's going on in the market
and what and what the worldlooks like right now.
I think both of us would sayit's a good time to be
(44:14):
optimistic and just to seefamilies stepping up and taking
the keys to the car and saying,let's uh let's expect more.
What what could humans be if weall took learning more
seriously?
And it wasn't just thisperfunctory thing, you know,
that that we go through.
So I'm excited to be part ofthat and appreciate you again.
Thanks, thanks for taking thetime.
And I guess just as we wrap up,one question I'll just bring on
(44:36):
you is somebody in your lifewho's kindled the love of
learning for you.
Can you think back to somebodylike that?
SPEAKER_02 (44:42):
Well, I could think of a lot of people like that.
Uh Kate, you know, teachers frommy high school, professors I've
had along the way.
Yeah.
My parents.
Yeah.
No, it's but there's there'sbeen a lot of people.
But uh, I've had one Englishteacher in high school that
really had a very profoundpositive effect on me.
I was, you know, kind of amiscreant uh ne'er do well high
(45:03):
school student, and I think shehelped straighten me out and put
me on the right path.
SPEAKER_01 (45:08):
Do you remember her name?
Let's let's give her JanetMcDonald.
Shout out if you're listening.
That's amazing.
And then where can our listenersgo to learn more about you and
your work?
SPEAKER_02 (45:17):
Um, you can follow me on Twitter or X now, it's at
Matthew Ladner, or you can go tothe Next Steps blog, which I
edit and write for, or you cango to the Heritage Foundation,
where we have a whole section oneducation uh right there too.
SPEAKER_01 (45:32):
Thanks, Matt.
Have a great day, and and thankseverybody for listening.
Cheer.
SPEAKER_00 (45:37):
The Kindled Podcast is brought to you by Prenda.
Prenda makes it easy to startand run an amazing microschool
based on all the ideas we talkabout here on the Kindled
Podcast.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media at PrendaLearn.
And if you'd like moreinformation about starting a
microschool, just go toPrenda.com.
Thanks for listening, andremember to keep Kindling.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.