Episode 76: Excellence in Writing. A Conversation with Andrew Pudewa.

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Kids like to do what they can do.
Right?
Yes.
That that's what they like isbeing able to do stuff.
Like people say, I hate math.
Nobody can hate math.
Math is intrinsically beautiful.
Math is is the order of theuniverse.
You can't hate that.
What you hate is not being ableto do it.

(00:20):
So if your goal is to help thestudent gain skills and improve,
then the byproduct is they willdislike it less and possibly
even start to enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 (00:33):
Welcome to the Kindle Podcast.
I'm Katie, your host for today.
And in this episode, we'retalking to Andrew Pudua about
writing.
I learned so much in thisepisode, and especially about
how important writing is as atool to helping kids and humans
become good thinkers, especiallyabout how like it literally
affects the architecture of thebrain as we write and go through

(00:53):
that process.
We also talk about what to dowhen kids hate writing and how
to help kind of scaffold themout of that, but still have high
expectations and still reallylike teach them how to do it.
So that was super helpful.
And then we also talk about howimportant it is to have a strong
and steady stream of languageand literature going into the
child's brain if we ever expectthem to be able to write and to

(01:15):
produce excellent writing.
We they need to have thevocabulary, the background
knowledge, all of the thingsneed to be going into their
brain before we can get them outof the brain.
So super interestingconversation, and I'm excited to
share it with you today.
Before we jump into it, I'llshare a little bit more about
who Andrew Poudois is.
He's the founder and director ofthe Institute for Excellence in
Writing, which is a verywell-known and like highly

(01:37):
thought-of writing program,especially in the homeschool
world.
It's also used in like classicalcharter schools.
He's presented around the world.
He addresses issues relating toteaching, writing, thinking,
spelling, and music withclarity, insight, practical
experience, and humor, which Iagree with.
His seminars for parents,students, and teachers have
helped transform many areluctant writer and have
equipped educators with powerfultools to dramatically improve

(01:57):
students' skills.
Let's talk to Andrew.
Andrew Pudawa, welcome to theKindle Podcast.
We're super excited to have youon today.

SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
Thank you, Katie.
It's good to be with you.

SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
All right.
So I want to back up and justgive you a chance to kind of
like tell your what's what's theAndrew Pudawa origin story?
You know, like how did you cometo the work you're doing?
And then what is your big why?
What is the change you're tryingto make in the world?

SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Yeah, so I have no training or degrees either in
education or in English.
My actual formal training is inmusic.
And so I was working as a Suzukiviolin teacher and also teaching
kinder music for young children.
And I was connected with aschool in Montana.

(02:40):
And this school had a Canadianteacher who was very excited
about this thing called theBlended Soundsite Program of
Learning.
She said this is the best thingto hit education ever.
And she convinced our wholefaculty to travel up to northern
Alberta and take this 10-dayteacher training course, which

(03:01):
is where I learned the structureand style in composition program
from my mentor, Dr.
James Webster.
And so I came back, I taught inthat school part-time, dabbled
with this writing stuff.
I was still pretty muchfull-time income teaching music.
But what interested me was Isaw, wow, this approach to

(03:24):
teaching English composition isalmost identical in philosophy
to the Suzuki method of teachingmusic.
So there were lots of continentideas there, the clear pathway,
the repetition, the masteryapproach to learning, the mixed
age capacity for it.
So I did that for a few moreyears and then I went and did

(03:45):
something else.
And then I I was finallythought, I've just got to do
something to break out of thispoverty of music teaching.
And so I I did a seminar.
I got 40 people to pay, well, Ithink I got 20 people to pay 40
bucks to listen to me talk forone day, which is more than I

(04:06):
could make in a whole week ofteaching violin as hard as
possible back in, was it 1994?
So for about five years, I didthis IEW thing, Institute for
Excellence and Writing, as apart-time, you know, gig just to
make extra money on theweekends, things like that.
And then by 99, it had becomemore uh profitable than I had

(04:28):
ever expected.
And we had made some videos andcreated a spelling program.
So in 99, I left where I wasliving, moved to a different
city, went full-time, and we'vejust gone uphill from there.
So it is a a rather odd way toget going.
I didn't have any particularambition to start, you know, a
business.

(04:48):
I just wanted something I coulddo on the side to bring in a
couple thousand a month enoughto crack my nut.

SPEAKER_01 (04:53):
Yeah.
Well, and here you are now.
IEW is one of the most like, Imean, I've been in the
homeschool world for a long,long time.
And like it is the thing thateveryone points to as like one
of the most effective.
It's just like the go-to if youwant like a really structured
writing curriculum.

SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
That's what we hope people will believe to be true.
You know, I get letters almostevery day from you know, kids
who's who've had transformedattitudes.
I used to hate writing, but nowit's my favorite thing, or from
older kids who are in college oradults who will write and say,
this was really super valuablething from my, you know,

(05:29):
homeschooling when I was a kidand helped me get A's on all my
papers in college.
And I'm so thankful.
And so you get a lot of ofvalidation.
And so I I think I can be veryconfident that the work we are
doing is making a a bigdifference.
And of course, you know, we'vestarted to grow even faster.
COVID was a huge explosion inalternative education of all

sorts (05:51):
homeschooling, hybrid schools, charter schools, and I
think just yeah, micro schools.
I think that trend is just gonnacontinue very significantly.

SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
Yeah.
Okay, we're gonna get super deepinto the whole writing thing,
but I want to kind of pull backa little bit and just ask like
broadly.
So I I actually have heard youspeak before.
I we homeschooling, this wasmaybe I don't know, like a
decade ago or something.
We were homeschooling and wewere starting this big co-op in
our area, and can't evenremember how I like got invited

(06:22):
to, but you were speaking and Iyou were talking about like the
using literature for like themoral development of our
children, something aroundaround that topic.
And I was just so fascinated,and I had all these little kids,
and you know, they hadn't Ihadn't quite developed so I I've
created a literacy curriculumand I helped do all of the
curriculum at Prenda.
Um, but I was just very early inmy journey, you know.

(06:44):
So it's like one of the one ofthe formative experiences in my
like coming up in in likecurriculum and systems design
and things like that.
So one, thank you.
Um and two, some of the thingsthat you said were like much
more broad than like let's teachkids how to write.
Just take a minute and like tellme what do you think is off in
education.

(07:05):
It seems like the boat's notpointed in the right direction.
We're trying to like, you know,reorient things to um to be more
effective and to be more failfamily oriented and things like
that.
So just like I guess that's myquestion is what do you see as
off and like what what's theworld doing wrong?
Just solve all the problems,please, in the next two minutes.

SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
Yes.
I have a good friend, AndrewKern, who does the Circe
Institute, and he and I willsometimes start a conversation
like when we are co-dictators ofthe world, this is what we will
but well, it you know, it's veryinteresting.
I am a believer in truth, thattruth exists and that it
matters.

(07:44):
And uh I think that, you know,as we kind of go back in
history, we we cease to be, tosteal John Henry Newman's words,
cease to be Protestant, I thinkwe cease to be progressive.
We cease to be enamored with theflashy new ideas that come and
go and come and go.

(08:05):
And we've been, oh, a littleover a hundred years of new wave
education coming in, you know,Deweyism and then the 50s and
60s and the creativity as theGod and the 70s, 80s, 90s,
standardized testing will solveall our problems.
And then we hit the O's, and forthe last couple decades, and
certainly right now, we're inthis belief that somehow

(08:25):
technology is going to solve allof our education problems.
And if we can just, you know,get every kid with a Chromebook
and hook them up to theinternet, they'd have access to
all the knowledge of theuniverse, and that would just
make everybody smarter.
And what we have found,obviously, is that very few
people even approximate a decenteducation of 100, 150 years ago.

(08:49):
In fact, there's an interestinglittle thing.
I don't know if you bumped intoit, it's the Celina, Kansas 1894
eighth grade graduation exam.
You can find it online, I think.
Nobody I know could pass thistest.
Not one of us could havegraduated from eighth grade in
the 1890s because it requiredmathematical thinking,
linguistic thinking, broadgeneral knowledge, logical

(09:12):
faculties, understanding ofgrammar, rhetoric, you know,
before technology started toatrophy all the skills that it
replaced, people used to thinkbetter and speak better and read
better and calculate better andknow more.
So I think we we look at thatand think, well, that is kind of

(09:32):
a distinctly good thing.
I mean, what person would notlike to be able to think better
and know more and do mental mathand have better logical
faculties to filter what comesto us every day?
And so there's this tension andand and this weird paradox

(09:53):
between modern educationsupposedly making things better
because we call it progressive,because progress means better,
only everything's pretty muchworse, and we don't really know
how to do it.
So to look back and say, well,what were they doing hundred
years ago, 200 years ago, youknow, 2000 years ago, what what

(10:16):
were what was education likethen?
Why did people do it?
How did they do it?
What were the goals and whatwere the ends?
That's what really interests meright now.

SPEAKER_01 (10:29):
Yeah, there's that that old timey saying, not all
changes progress, right?
Just because you, you know, wethink we're moving, and here's
this new thing that's gonna makesome huge difference.
And then 20 years later, it'slike, well, that didn't work,
you know?
But we're running these very uhit's we're running experiments
on all of these kids essentiallywith all these new things.

(10:49):
And I I I'm not I'm notanti-progress, and I'm
definitely not anti-technology.
Actually, when I first foundKelly, the founder of Prenda, I
and I've told the story.
Sorry, if you're a longtimelistener, you've heard the story
before.
I just, I was so, I won't say Iwas against technology, but like
I was very technology hesitant,right?
Like our TV lived under our bed.
We did not have toys that hadbatteries in them.

(11:12):
Like we were like way over here,right?
And then I was exploring allthese educational ideas and
principles and reading all thesebooks.
And then Kelly, the founder ofPrenda, he was like reading my
education blog one day, and welike connected.
This is before we, you know,were building Prenda together.
And he's like, I agree witheverything on your blog, but I
like technology.
And I'm like, all right, likehow can we, you know, embrace

(11:32):
technology and use it in a waythat, you know, it's like you
can point to like the book, youknow, like Gutenberg, like that
is a form of technology.
You can point to like thetypewriter, like these things as
these, these things aretechnologies, and we do need to
embrace them and utilize them.
But they definitely, no one waslike, oh, the typewriter, that's
like gonna save education orwhatever.

(11:52):
You know, like I think in a in aunique way, modern technology
and like ed tech has been kindof put on this pedestal of like
this is the thing that's goingto just make it completely just
close the book, like education'sdone, you know, like this is the
savior of of modern education.
And it's just like it's not sosimple.
Like, I don't I don't want tothrow the baby out with the
bathwater, but like youdefinitely have to use the tool.

(12:14):
A computer is like a stapler,right?
It's a tool to get a job done.
And if you're not approachingthat job with like clarity and
purpose and like using your ownagentic, like human like ideas,
like it can definitely and likeespecially with young kids and
like the developing brain.
I know you've done a lot ofresearch into brain development,
things like that, can reallysurprise the brain from like uh

(12:38):
um you know, like for hundredsand hundreds and hundreds of
generations, like the humanbrain hasn't seen a computer.
Something that stimulating,that's something that, you know,
it can be addictive, all thethings we know.
So yeah, talk lean a little bitinto that.
Like tell me more about like Iknow the IEW is not like an app,
right?
But you do use like videos andthings like that.

(12:58):
Sure, yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:59):
You know, every business is a tech business to
some degree now because weconduct all of the exchange
happening through websites andonline.
We deliver video content to ourcustomers.
We also sell paper.
And one of the interestingquestions that was asked of me
when we decided to buy a verylarge, very expensive printing

(13:23):
machine, the finance guy said,Well, you know, with E
everything, you know, do youreally think there people are
going to want to buy paper toeducate children, you know,
increasingly or decreasingly, orwhat's your plan?
And the other thing hementioned, of course, and it's
the hot topic for everyone in myworld, is how is AI going to

(13:45):
affect the teaching of thingslike grammar and composition?
And so I kind of pushed back onhim and I said, well, yes, it's
true that the whole world iscareening into let's go
high-tech classroom, paperlessclassroom, teach kids to you as
AI, do all that.

(14:07):
But there's also a lot of peoplewho realize that if you don't
develop the skills that will bedeveloped through doing
something yourself, then youwon't have those skills, and
that'll be a disadvantage yourwhole life.
So, you know, I think researchis a particularly interesting

(14:28):
thing because you may have, youknow, you're obviously much
younger than I am.
I grew up before there were evencomputers and homes and no
internet.
And to do research, you had togo to the library and get books
and magazines and use littlethree by five cards and go
through this, you know, rathertedious process.
And, you know, as part of whatwe have in our system is a mini

(14:51):
research process that we teachon paper, with paper, read,
copy, handwrite, make outlines,and do all that.
And yeah, okay, so we don'twrite reports on, you know,
Japan or fruit flies becausethat information is going to
enrich our lives so much as thewhole action of searching for,

(15:17):
collecting up, looking forthings to compare, things that
are different, things that youcan put together in a logical
way, that compiling ofinformation, that is what we're
training our brain to do when wegrow up writing reports.
So if we kind of outsource thatand say, yeah, we'll just have

(15:40):
ChatGPT do all the research thatneeds to be done.
Well, first of all, I've seensignificant errors come back in
ChatGPT stocks.
Of course.
And the good news, I I haveenough life experience to look
at that and say, I got to reallyquestion that.
However, you know, a person ofless general knowledge might

(16:00):
just accept it as, okay, well,that's obviously true because it
told me.
But even more so, if we'reoutsourcing the process of doing
it, we're we're kind of likeoutsourcing our thinking in a
way.
And then we don't develop thethinking so that when we have to
do that same thing, butinternally, collect up

(16:21):
information from various areasof our own personal experience
and knowledge, and thenprioritize and organize and
present that, we won't have theskill to do that in the
meaningful, personal, human way.
So this is why, you know, I canam very driven to help teachers

(16:42):
and parents understand why weshould not just default over and
not worry about teaching some ofthese basic skills to kids,
whether it's how to put words onpaper, how to spell, how to
punctuate sentences correctly,what's the difference between a
complete sentence and anincomplete sentence?
Well, we don't need to know thatbecause Chat GPT does it

(17:03):
perfectly already.
So that's that's a hot topicthese days.

SPEAKER_01 (17:07):
Yeah.
Oh, it's for sure a hot topic.
Yeah.
And I still like am reallyexploring like how I feel about
it, right?
Like I can see logic kind oflike in both ways, where it's
like, well, like in 1910,everybody needed to know how to
like operate this tractor, thispiece of technology.
And like to my life, like, Idon't need that.
Like, you know, so there areskills and things that we as

(17:27):
society changes that you canpoint to to say, like, we just
don't need those skills as muchanymore.
But I don't think thinking isone of those skills that we're
not going to need.
And like this is literallychanging the architecture of the
developing brain.
Like, as we do things, as wehand write, as we look at things
in real space instead of on ascreen, like our brain registers

(17:48):
those things and thoseactivities way differently.
Like you just described thisprocess of research where it is
multi-step.
You have to hold on to whatyou're doing through multiple
steps.
You have to, you know, be like,oh, this little bit of
information from this sourcematches this source and
strengthens my argument.
You know, like that's a verycomplicated cognitive pathway
that is being myelinated in thebrain as we, as we do that again

(18:11):
and again.
And it makes our our thinkingmore effective.
It makes it quicker.
But like if you're neverputting, if you're not putting
your brain through those paces,like you're not going to have
that kind of a brain.
And that to me is like likescary.
Like, I don't know if I want tolive in a world that's kind of
like run by people who don'thave those skills.
That sounds bad.

SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
I I suspect that one of the side effects of this kind
of explosion of popular techbrain replacing technology is
there's going to be a greaterdisparity between the educated
and the non-educated.

SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
Totally.

SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
You know, if you look back, like I'll go back to
that late 1800s period.
You know, an eighth-gradeeducation was a pretty darn good
education.
Yes, you could go to university,you could specialize, you could
get higher, but but there wasn'tthis huge gap between the
educated and the general thegeneral public person, right?

(19:08):
Very high levels of literacyamong the white population in
North America in the 1800s.
Um, but but that's been wideningover time.
And I think, particularly in thelast 20 to 30 years, we've seen
basic skills of the generalpublic declining to the point
where now, and this thisfrightened me, Katie, when I

(19:30):
heard this stat, but I've heardit in more than one place, um,
that the national average forproficiency, eighth grade
reading proficiency is in the30%.

SPEAKER_01 (19:44):
Yes.
It's a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_00 (19:45):
And there are there are some school districts that
have 0% of their students atproficient levels for reading
and math.
And, you know, you justextrapolate that out 10, 15
years, these kids are now allgrown up in the workforce.
What does that mean?
Where are we going there?
And I fear then that as ThomasJefferson pointed out, one of

(20:06):
the keys to a successfulcountry, particularly a
democratically oriented country,is the education of its
citizens.
And as that has declined, Ithink we see the potential for a
lot more control over thepublic, control by people who
have the knowledge, the power,the education.

(20:28):
And so I guess part of what Iwant to do in my little corner
of the world is just fight thatand get the best possible
language development educationalimpact that I can have on as
many people as possible,particularly the people who
might not encounter it, youknow, ultimately.

SPEAKER_01 (20:52):
Yeah, totally agree.
I think about uh just thatgrowing discrepancy.
Like the people that arecreating all of this AI, they
have all the skills we'retalking about, right?
Like they have the a a deepthinking brain that understands
how to like process multiplesteps, like all like it's very
complicated, right?
So as soon as we progress like afew decades, it's like, okay,

(21:12):
well, we didn't we forgot tolike raise any kids that had
that level of thinking.
Now who's in charge?
Like it's just the robots aremaking the robots, and it's just
like humanity's done for.
Like, it's scary, Andrew.
I like don't know what to thinkabout it.
But I'm learning and I'm notactually, I'm not actually
scared because I think thatpeople like you and people like
me and people in the alternativeeducation world and especially

(21:35):
people in the system too, likethey're seeing this and we are
going to respond well to it.
Fingers crossed, I hope I haveconfidence and and hope that it
will go well.
Um, okay, I want to dig intowriting real quick, not real
quick, for like a long time,actually.
So just some backstory.
My kids have dysgraphia, andwriting is like so painful for
them.
They have been doing IEW for thelast three years in their

(21:56):
microschool and in a fewdifferent microschools.
We have lots of microschoolguides who use your program.
And some, like, like with anyprogram, it's like some kids are
like, yes, this is it and thisis great and I love it.
And some kids are like, I hatethis, right?
And it's like negativelyimpacting their love of writing.
But it is definitely, I wastalking to my 10-year-old uh who
uses a program yesterday, and Iwas like, I'm interviewing like

(22:17):
the guy that made IEW.
And he's like, that's cool.
And he was like, tell him that Ihate it, but it's making me a
great writer.
And he's like, as a 10-year-old,he like knows that he's
struggling and it's hard andthat like persistent struggle.
Like, he's like, I know that'snot comfortable for me, but like
I can see that my writing is alot better and like I'm able to
communicate better.

(22:37):
So, like, even as a 10-year-old,he has that perspective.
But I'm kind of watching, andlike my oldest is 12, and he's
the one that has dysgraphia.
So I'm watching the writing prothe developmental writing
process kind of unfold in my ownhome and unfold across Prendo.
We have thousands of kids inmicroschools all over the
country.
And I'm just looking for alittle guidance, honestly.
I'm like, this is not my area ofexpertise.

(22:58):
Like, we can talk about literacyall day long.
Writing, I'm like, okay, I'mjust kind of watching this for
the first time.
I'd love what does thatdevelopmental process look like?
You know, what does an earlywriter look and feel like?
What is a like an element, likean upper elementary, like not
that we want to like tie it toage, because I really believe in
like a mastery-based approach,right?
It's like not, oh, you're nine,you should have these skills,

(23:21):
but what skills do you have andwhere can we get to get you to
next?
Um, is kind of the approach Itake.
But walk me through thatdevelopmental process.

SPEAKER_00 (23:28):
Well, gosh, there's so much to say there.
The first thing I would mentionis I will get moms who'll come
up to me at a convention orsomething, and they will say, I
just want my child to enjoybeing able to express himself on
paper.
And I have to push back on thatimmediately because I don't

(23:50):
think those are good goals atall.
I think those are the wronggoals.
First of all, writing is notabout expressing yourself, it's
about expressing ideas.
And when you're a little kid,you know, ideas are just
floating around, bouncing offinside, outside your brain.
They're just scattered, they'reunmanageable.

(24:11):
And the process really has to dowith wrangling ideas, not
expressing what you feel andthink about stuff.
I'm almost certain that I'venever had a completely original
idea in my whole life.
Every idea I've ever had camefrom somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 (24:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (24:28):
And maybe I'll live long enough and I will have an
original idea, but I'm not allthat hopeful because I'm already
pretty old.
So, you know, that's one thingto challenge.
The other thing is I I don'tcare if your kids like it or
not.
That's that's not a good goalbecause if you have that as a
goal, you're gonna fall intothis trap.
And I think a lot of publicschools have fallen to this

(24:50):
trap.
Like somehow we're gonnacheerlead kids into liking this.
And we're gonna tell them thisis fun and you're doing so well,
and this is creative, and I justlove what you're doing.
And it's disingenuous becausethe kids basically know it's not
that good.
They don't like it.
And you're telling them thatthey should like it doesn't help

(25:11):
anything at all.
So I always say, you know, if Iwere talking to your kid, I'd
say, I don't care if you like itor not, you just do it, right?
You don't have to like it, youjust have to do it.
But here's the reallyinteresting thing, Katie, and I
have a whole talk on motivationthat would be, you know, an
interesting uh subject toexplore a little bit.
But one of the laws ofmotivation is that kids like to

(25:35):
do what they can do, right?
Yes.
That that's what they like isbeing able to do stuff.
Like people say, I hate math.
Nobody can hate math.
Math is intrinsically beautiful.
Math is is the order of theuniverse.
You can't hate that.
What you hate is not being ableto do it.

SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
Yeah.
And how you make it makes youfeel, right?
Like it's like, oh, when I domath, I feel like an idiot and I
don't like that feeling.

SPEAKER_00 (26:00):
Right.
So same thing with writing.
So if your goal is to help thestudent gain skills and improve,
then the byproduct is they willdislike it less and possibly
even start to enjoy it.
Although I never guarantee that.
I also talk to, you know,particularly boys around 12 to

(26:21):
14, they're the ones who'll comeat you and say, Well, why do I
have to learn this?
I'm not going to ever use itbecause I'm going to go into the
military or I'm going to be anengineer or I'm going to go into
plumbing or whatever they thinkthey want to do.
And I always point out, yes,that's is interesting.
But if you do go into themilitary or you become an
engineer or a garbage collector,it doesn't matter.

(26:44):
It's the people who can speakand write well that rise up to
positions of influence, right?
The best engineer remains anengineer because he's a good
engineer.
But the good engineer who's goodat communicating engineering
ideas, he becomes the leader.
He becomes the vice president.
He's the one who then has agreater opportunity to serve

(27:08):
because of a greater influence.
And so I think that's animportant thing to consider is
that communication skills arealways at the forefront of every
career's uh, you know, cuttingedge of leadership.
So a few things there.

SPEAKER_01 (27:24):
Yeah, I love all that.

SPEAKER_00 (27:26):
Let's go back to this problem of writing.
So if someone says to you, writesomething, what has to happen in
order for you to do that?
Well, the first thing is youhave to find an idea.
Right?
If there's no idea, there'snothing to write and you're
completely dead in the water,which is why you meet a lot of

(27:47):
parents who's who've had heardtheir kids say things like,
Well, I can't think of anything.
I don't know what to write, Ican't I don't know what to say.
They're stuck there.
So first thing is you have tofind an idea.
Now, ideas can pre-exist indifferent forms.
Ideas can pre-exist inside yourmemory and imagination, or they

(28:10):
can pre-exist in a moreimmediate form.
I'll give you an example.
If I said write about the lasttrip you took with your family,
I'm asking you to go inside yourmemory and imagination and pull
out what you can in terms ofsensory impressions or concrete
thoughts that happened that areconnected with that memory.

(28:34):
So you're searching there.
Whereas if I said, writesomething about the room that
you're in right now, that wouldbe very different, wouldn't it?
You could just look around andsay, well, what it what do I
see?
What's on the wall, what's onthe shelves, what's on the desk,
right?
And you could you could haveideas more immediately
accessible.
So that's one differentiation.
Another differentiation is thatideas can primarily exist in

(28:58):
sensory impressions, or they canprimarily exist uh in words.
So again, an example.
If I said, write something aboutbeing in nature, right?
Being in a forest, being at thebeach, being at the desert, you
know.
Okay, almost all of that youhave to go in, access through

(29:22):
memory and imagination, andthose are mostly sensory
impressions.
You would have to wrestle wordsout of your uh word database and
affix those words to yoursensory impressions in order to
approximate that and communicatesomething vaguely resembling

(29:42):
your experience or yourimagination.
Whereas if I said, please tellme your favorite Bible story or
your favorite um Aesop fable oryour favorite fairy tale, that
would be very different becausethose things came.
into your consciousness uhthrough in words right so what

(30:05):
is the easiest for kids to getstarted with uh right something
that is immediate you don't haveto go find it and get it and
something that pre-exists inwords which is why in our system
as you know we start with sourcetext and keyword outlines we
don't we don't stay thereforever but that's the starting

(30:26):
place and that removes theproblem of I don't know what to
do I can't think of anything Idon't know what to say but let's
say wherever you get your ideayou find an idea now what has to
happen you have to speak thatidea into existence maybe it
pre-existed in words and nowyou're re-speaking it or it

(30:47):
pre-existed in sensoryimpressions and you're you're
affixing words and speaking itbut you have to speak that idea
into existence you do this ifyou're writing an email or you
you like writing so maybe a blogpost or a letter to someone you
have to basically talk toyourself right you you say what
you think you want to write andthen you hear what you heard
yourself say to yourself.

(31:09):
Okay so you speak it intoexistence you have to hear what
you say hear yourself say toyourself and some children
that's not a natural faculty.
In fact if you've hung out withchildren at all you will notice
that very often they can saythings and have no idea what
they just said.
So that learning to hear whatyou're saying to yourself then
you have to hold that idea inyour memory long enough to go

(31:30):
wrestle way over in a differentpart of your brain the technical
information of what are thewords, what sequence do those
words go in to say what you wantto say, how do you spell those
words?
Which ones get capitals wheredoes the punctuation go?
What makes it a completesentence and you have to wrestle
all that technical informationand then you have to read what

(31:52):
you just wrote and decide isthat accurately reflecting the
idea that I was trying tocommunicate and if it does okay
put a period and then go backand get the next idea in the
sequence, speak it intoexistence, hear what you heard
yourself say to yourself,remember what you heard yourself
say to yourself, get all thetechnical information, wrestle
it onto page or a screen orwhatever, and continue that

(32:14):
process.
It's insanely complex in fact itkind of boggles the mind that
anyone can do this, let aloneyou know little kids.

SPEAKER_01 (32:23):
Yeah, for sure.
Like just the cognitive load ofdoing all of that one just gives
me a lot more empathy for thedeveloping writer because to me
it's like you know I'm past thedevelop I mean I'm still
learning obviously but like Ican write with that with all of
that.
It's kind of like learning howto drive when like you're
constantly worried about all ofthese buttons and everything
that you're doing right.
And then like now I don't thinkabout driving it's just kind of
like automated.

(32:44):
The neural pathways that do thathave been myelinated and it
requires a lot less effort.
But when we are going throughthis developmental process, it
is going to feel so effortful.
Yeah.
And the cognitive load alonethat you've just described is
like oh it's hard.
Yeah like I get it.
I get that that doesn't feelgood.

SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
Like it's fantasy for children like you know your
son who's dysgraphic and otherkids, it it's pretty much the
same for whatever problems.
You know, kids will havedyslexia or dysgraphia they'll
have attention issues they mayhave auditory processing issues.
They may have a combinationthereof they may be hypers you
know hyper sensitive to variousthings.

(33:22):
It's really whatever the problemis the solutions are very
similar which is to take thecomplexity of the process and
break it into very smallmanageable steps.
That's really the key.
And I think that's why we havehad such great success, you
know, with kids who have variouslearning differences and

(33:43):
challenges but that's reallytrue for all kids who are trying
to learn something.
And so breaking it into verysmall steps and then being sure
to give them the foundation ofthe basic skills that they need
in order to be successful ateach of those small steps.
And you know an example of thatwould be just being able to copy

(34:05):
a word correctly right and youknow the the again getting back
to kind of the progressivemodern creativity emphasized
educational environment it'svery frequent to find people in
primary education meaning K12who who sneer at the idea of
giving children just copy worklike copy this sentence copy

(34:28):
this proverb copy this poembecause well what does that do?
It does a huge number of thingsfirst first it creates stamina
like okay here's a sentence copythe whole thing don't quit give
up run the whole lap do thewhole 10 reps whatever the
second thing is it it cultivatesan attentiveness to detail okay

(34:51):
so what are the letters in thatword and what order do those
letters come in and yeah you'rea little dysgraphic or dyslexic
well okay so what does thatmean?
You need to work your willpowerover your brain and exercise it
maybe a little more than otherpeople in order to do that.
You can either do that and growand gain the neural muscle or

(35:14):
you can give up and say no noit's too hard I'm never going to
be able to those are those areboth options.
You know then then what do youget you you get this this
confidence that comes out ofbeing able to just put words on
paper and and then it becomes alittle bit faster a little bit
easier a little bit fastermastery learning everybody

(35:35):
working at their own pace attheir own speed you know I think
you and I probably agree one ofthe greatest dysfunctions that
we have in modern education issaying because a child is X
number of years old they shouldbe able to do all of these
things and if they can't nowthey are behind and that's bad.

(35:58):
And now what do you do?
Well you do everything they wassupposed to do and what they
can't do all at once whichfurther impacts the whole stress
of the thing.
Completely if we could eliminatethis age grade level idea from
people and that's why I love youknow the micro school approach

(36:18):
which you know is is wheneveryou have mixed age environments
you generally have betteropportunity for all kids to make
progress at the rate at whichthey will best make progress.
This is one of the similaritiesbetween say being a music
teacher and kind of thismulti-age environment.

(36:40):
Like music teachers don't everthink oh well because Johnny is
eight years old and he's on thethird piece in book two and
Sally is also eight years oldbut she's only on the next to
last piece in book one Johnny isahead of Sally you don't think
that way.
You don't think that way at allthat matters is that Johnny and
Sally both play well whateverthey do play and that they make

(37:04):
good progress at whatever ratethey are able to given all the
various circumstances of theirneurology, their background the
amount of help they get at homethe time the priority their
genetics I mean you know soanyway I think our approach to
teaching writing enables ateacher to teach a lesson to a

(37:26):
group of children and thenchallenge them individually at
whatever level of challenge theyare capable of meeting and they
will gain the satisfaction ofhaving done the best that they
can do.

SPEAKER_01 (37:38):
Let's dive into that a little bit I want I want to go
so many different directionshere, but so in IEW, the kids
have, and you can correct me ifI'm wrong, but it's like you
learn a lesson and then when youwrite you are responsible for
performing that skill, right?
So you kind of are building thisyour personal rubric where it's
like okay now I'm gonna do thisdress up dress up is kind of
like how would you describe adress up?

(37:59):
You want to define that?

SPEAKER_00 (38:00):
I won't we have a we have the the program is called
structure and style and so wehave structural models.
So those are ways to collect upand organize and prepare to
write ideas.
And we use outlines in all ofthe units.
Unit one and two is source texttake keywords from every

(38:20):
sentence keyword outline writeit out pretty straightforward.
And then unit three is the storysequence chart.
So now you're going to take anexisting story but not take
keywords from every sentenceinstead say what are the key
elements in this storycharacters and setting conflict
or problem climax resolutionoutcome four topic lyncher

(38:41):
paragraph unit five writing frompictures so those are ways to
that's ways to collect up andorganize ideas.
The style are how to presentthose ideas so those are as you
said kind of a checklist ofgrammatical constructions and
word usages and so we start youknow very simple in fact one

(39:05):
style technique usually it's theL Y adverb dress up because it's
very flexible and all the kidscan relate to motion pretty
easily and so okay now you'vegot your outline when you write
this paragraph somewhere inthere you have to fit in this
thing this LY adverb and ohhere's a nice long list of LY
adverbs to choose from andhopefully you can choose one

(39:26):
that fits and enhances themeaning and makes it work.
And maybe it's a little awkwardbut that's okay.
Awkward is normal for being akid.
Once that becomes easy now we'regoing to add in another style
technique.
Usually in our sequence thesecond would be the who which
clause creates an adjectiveclause grammatically you don't
have to know that you just haveto use the word who or which to

(39:49):
add more detail or connect up toideas.
So now you've got the L Y andthe who which and you do those
in each paragraph of eachassignment until that becomes
easy.
And then you would add in thenext style technique maybe a
strong verb and you would doeach of those until that becomes
easy and then you would add inanother one.

(40:10):
And so that's how the checklistcan be customized for individual
kids or subgroups of kids in aclass is because we only want to
add the new technique when whatyou've been practicing so far
has become easy.
And in my way easy means you cando it without much help and it
doesn't sound too goofy most ofthe time.

(40:33):
And so that's what we call theeasy plus one method and
everything we teach is kind ofbased on that philosophical
idea.

SPEAKER_01 (40:41):
Yeah I love that easy plus one that makes me
think of Lev Vygotsky's zone ofproximal development as exactly
yeah at Prenda we call this thechild's learning frontier you
want to be not bored but notcrying on the floor, right?
So you want it's like thatGoldilocks zone and I love that
easy plus one.
And I think that this is reallyunique in the writing world
because I mean it's veryoverwhelming all the things that

(41:01):
you have to know.
And a lot of us are able to likewrite and do these things
because we're very proficientspeakers, right?
And so like if we just write, Imean I know writing how we write
and writing how we talk is verydifferent, but it helps a whole
heck of a lot to be a goodverbal communicator first.
Um so how like when I'm watchingmy kids do this, I what I love

(41:22):
about this is that it's like youtake an age mix group and you
know they can progress throughlike maybe one kid is like he
does the two dress ups and he'slike I'm really still struggling
with this and I'm gonna I'mgonna practice and I'm gonna
have to practice this for threeweeks.
And another kid does it twiceand he's like all right like
give me the plus one and theycan move at their own pace,
which I think is really uniquein education ever, right?
To see any sort of mastery orpersonalized pacing or

(41:44):
personalized mastery.
But also in writing it justseems like particularly hard to
do that in writing for somereason.
So I think I it's just like areally unique approach that I I
really like.

SPEAKER_00 (41:53):
Yeah.
I would like to you saidsomething that made me think of
something very important.
You said you know you're acompetent speaker and that helps
in your writing and of courseit's a two-way street there.
But one of the things that Ihave been very aware of and
working hard to educate parentsand teachers is kind of an

(42:15):
obvious like duh thing, buttremendously important for what
we're doing here is you reallycan't get something out of a
brain that isn't in there tobegin with.
So if what you want is for achild to produce either spoken
or written reliably correct andappropriately sophisticated
language, you have to have asteady stream of that reliably

(42:40):
correct and appropriatelysophisticated language coming
into their brains on a dailybasis.
You have to build the databasethere.
And unfortunately our modernworld does not do this very
well.
I think the decline mostcommentators today would go and
track it back to television waskind of the beginning of the

(43:03):
dumbing down of the languagethat most people experience.
And I think for many people nowshows we'll just say shows in
general social media being anextension of that has further
dumbed down the language.
People read much less than theyused to in fact the average high
school student that asupermajority so over two-thirds

(43:26):
of high school students in thecountry today have not read one
book in the last year.

SPEAKER_01 (43:33):
Not even for school?

SPEAKER_00 (43:34):
No well teachers don't assign books in school
because kids won't read themthey just go to Clipnotes or
ChatGPT and get their homeworkdone and pretend to read.
But you know even if they didhave to read in school compare
that though to pre you know TVor just pre-internet you know
when I was a kid you would readsimply to not die of boredom.

(43:56):
Yeah because that that was whyyou would have a book with you.
And then you know for some of usreading became a valuable part
of the experience of growing upand we were also read too my
parents read bedtime stories andpoetry and my mom read me books
when I was young that we're alsolosing in the modern world the

(44:18):
bedtime story culture.
So kids aren't getting books inthrough their eyes they're not
getting books in through theirears.
The quality of language thatthey are exposed to throughout
the day on an accidental basisis busy adults and internet
based, screen based, socialmedia based or peers.
And none of that is going tobuild a high vocabulary none of

(44:41):
that is going to build ingrammatical patterns of more
complexity of beautiful use oflanguage of poetry um memorizing
poetry used to be a normal thingkids in the 18 early 1900s
everybody memorized poetry andand excerpts of of documents and

(45:02):
speeches every eighth grade kidin 1890 would have been able to
recite the preamble of theConstitution the first sentence
of the Declaration ofIndependence the Gettysburg
Address and probably the lastparagraph or two of Patrick
Henry's Give Me Liberty or GiveMe Death speech that was like
normal discipline along with awhole slew of famous poems.

(45:27):
Now it is a rare thing to gointo a public school unless it's
like a you know a classicalcharter school or something and
find anybody having memorizedanything other than the stupid
lyrics to the newest pop songthat everybody is listening to,
which I don't think wouldqualify as reliably correct and

(45:47):
appropriately sophisticatedEnglish.

SPEAKER_01 (45:50):
No, I don't think so.
I think that's something thatstops us as adults from like
leaning into this is that wethink like the kids will hate
it, the kids will be bored likethe kids will push back and like
one, that's just not true.
Like I've like if you raise yourkids when you you're reading out
loud to them high qualityliterature and you're
introducing poems, if you'resetting the model of like poems

(46:11):
are cool and I'm gonna memorizethis poem and at dinner time I'm
gonna be like hey I memorizethis poem and I want to say it
to everyone like your six yearold sees that as like oh adults
in their free time memorizepoems and like my mom loves this
and like I'm looking to herexample in the model and like
what's a poem that I can youknow memorize.
And our our microschool guidehas been doing poetry
memorization with my kids thisyear.

(46:32):
And every few every few weeksthey come home and both of them,
both my boys 10 and 12, they'relike got a new one and it's like
some beautiful Edward Guest poemabout like hard work and like
diligence.
And I'm like, yes, this isawesome.
And then they actually two weeksago they came home and they were
like well we memorized all herpoems.
Like she doesn't have any morepoems for us to memorize.
And I was like great like let'sget on the internet and find and

(46:55):
like instead of being like okayit's bedtime, it was like 1130
at night like very we were upvery late.
They were like I went and gotall of the poetry books in the
house and like put them all ontheir floor and they were all
just like combing through thesepoetry books.
A 10 and 12 year old boy whoshould be like playing Minecraft
or like doing something you knowstupid are like up late with
their mom researching poems andthey're like oh this is a great
one.

(47:15):
We find it my son who's verylike technology oriented like
figures out how to get it on myphone and then prints it from my
phone is I'm like I don't knowhow to do that.
Prints out two copies and tapesit to their wall like this
they're now they're memorizingthe oak tree poem.
I'm I don't remember who that'sfrom but uh maybe I'll put it in
the show notes.
It's a great one.

SPEAKER_00 (47:34):
Golden moments from parenting there.

SPEAKER_01 (47:36):
Yeah right it's like it is possible.

SPEAKER_00 (47:39):
I'm just trying to inspire all parents and all
teachers read to your kids outloud minimize the screens help
them you help build thatlanguage database because those
are the words that they're goingto have available to affix to
the ideas when they go to writestuff.
And so many kids that I meetlike in the public school world

(48:01):
they they don't write quotecreatively because they just
don't have the vocabulary to doit.
And so let's look at the thefundamental building of the
language database in the bestway possible.
And we can use technology likebeing able to find poems and
print them and get them rightthere.
And then we go back to thedistinctly human aspect of

(48:24):
learning it by heart, bringingit into your mind, into your
soul and owning it.

SPEAKER_01 (48:29):
We even found an app, maybe I don't know how
you'll feel about this, but wefound an app where you put in a
quote and then you there's likea little slider that deletes the
words it's like this deletesevery other word this deletes
every third word.
So gradually it's likescaffolding you to so there's an
example how technology can beused to promote this.

SPEAKER_00 (48:46):
Yeah no we're actually working on a memory
development app right now calledThat's awesome.
Yeah it's called Memory Mentor.
Oh it's it's also got thisunique feature where you can put
in the audio and then you canset it for how long you want it
how often you want it to play.
So you can set it for every dayor every other day or every

(49:07):
third day or once a week or oncea month.
That way you can schedule areview because if you spend a
bunch of time memorizing a poemor you know some scripture or
something you don't want to thenforget it.
You want to be reminded topractice it often enough that
you maintain as you love one ofmy favorite words the
myelinization of the neuralconnections that make you

(49:30):
smarter.

SPEAKER_01 (49:31):
Yep totally we have a little in prenda world in our
software we have a little cornercalled memory challenge where we
have math things and geographythings and I'm working on a
spelling thing and poems andthings like that.
So it is so important and I hatethe whole concept that's like we
don't need to memorize anythingwe can just Google it.
I'm like, oh if there was a moredestructive idea than that
that's going around like let meknow because I think that's a

(49:52):
pretty bad one.
I do I get I get where it comesfrom but it's like nope, I want
the wisdom of the ages stored upin the hearts and minds of my
kids and the kids that they'replaying with in their
neighborhoods too.
So we're all you know justliving an inspired meaningful
life.
I think that it's likesomething's lost when you're
like well if I ever need thatI'll just Google it.
Like I don't know.
It's just not a very likeinspiring, edifying way to live.

(50:14):
Okay.
So I have actually somequestions and maybe we've
covered some of these I havespecific questions that guides
have sent in for you.
I told everyone that I wasinterviewing you.
They were all very excited andso we've talked a little bit
about IEW in a mix mixed agegroup but in a micro school
you'll have like kids come inand they're they'll do a year
with you and then you'll haveanother batch of kids that come
in in the next year and they'reall at different ages.

(50:36):
They're all at differentdifferent stages of the writing
development how how can guidesmaybe I don't know I don't know
if you'd see this in in ahomeschool setting or in a
classroom really maybe it'sunique to microschools but like
what should you do if you'redoing IAW and like these kids
are all on year three and thisthese kids are now fresh and
assume these microschools havelike 10 kids in them.
Right.
And usually an age range likesixth to eighth or third through

(50:58):
fifth, you know they're kind oflike ballpark age grouped but
like how would you just likesome quick tips for that
situation.

SPEAKER_00 (51:05):
Our approach I think is uniquely suited to this
because we have our nine unitsand we recommend that you start
you know at the beginning of theschool year, August or whenever
and work through those nineunits over the course of the
school year.
With the primary grades you knowthree through five we would
probably say up to unit sevenbut then middle school and

(51:28):
beyond up through unit nine andwe even have some extensions off
unit eight and nine for moreacademic upper level writing.
But you work through all thosenine units and you're using
stories and articles and ifyou're using one of our
theme-based writing lesson booksthose are connected around a
theme like you know medievalhistory or Narnia or something

(51:53):
and and you're introducing thestylistic techniques according
to the easy plus one method thatwe have used, being able to
customize the checklists fordifferent kids in your group.
Okay, so you've done that.
Now you've got a new wave ofkids coming in.
They haven't done it before.
So you go back and you startagain at unit one and two in the

(52:15):
fall.
And I have found that kids ifthey take kind of take off the
summer and they have two monthsof not doing something they
actually forget quite a lot.
I've been often amazed at whatthey say no I don't remember
that from last year.
Okay well fine let's presumelet's assume that everybody
forgot everything and now we'vegot new kids and they didn't

(52:38):
know it to begin with.
So okay we're all in the sameboat.
Let's learn it together and youwalk through those nine units.
Now some of the kids are gonnabe like oh I remember this
excellent good then theirwriting becomes a better example
of how to do it for the kids whoeither don't remember or never
learned it which is one thing Ireally like about teaching

(52:59):
groups of kids is that you canread something that somebody
wrote, read it aloud,acknowledge what you like about
it and then even showcasecertain little things.
Wow listen to that sentencewasn't that a nicely balanced
sentence or what a greatvocabulary word you put in there
or that was really a fun way youdid that.
And so then you're pointing outthat what you like to the whole

(53:22):
group and so you've always gotsome kids who are more likely to
give you that kind of grist foryour mill but the whole group is
benefiting because then they getideas of oh that's how you would
use that word that way or asimilar word or that's how you
would use that you know sentenceopener or dress up technique,
whatever.
So then the second year though,you're using different articles.

(53:46):
So that's why we have uh severalyears worth of these theme-based
writing lesson books is so thatyeah one year you're doing
ancient history next year youcould do medieval history next
year you could do US history orwe have another series we did in
conjunction with HillsdaleCollege Adventures in writing
discoveries in writingexplorations in writing so that
each year the things you'rewriting about are different but

(54:10):
the structural models are beingreinforced.

SPEAKER_02 (54:14):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (54:14):
And then the stylistic techniques are each
year going a little bit fasterbecause they become easier more
quickly because you rememberdoing them before.
So you really can keep a groupof kids, you know, for three or
four years with new kids comingin.
A good example of this and maybesome listeners are familiar with

(54:34):
the way classical conversationsis set up, they have their
essentials program.
And so the kids are in thatessentials program for three
years.
They do the same thing firstyear and then they do it again
the next year and they do itagain the next year.
And if they come in on you knowUS history then the next year
they go back to ancient if theycome in on you know medieval

(54:59):
they do US and then they go backto ancient so so they're getting
all three years worth but not inthe same sequence.
And you can do that with scienceand history is not chronological
anyway.
So that idea of that mixed agegroup and the repetition then
they the first year everybody'skind of like oh this is hard and

(55:19):
difficult and I don't reallyknow what to do and mom's giving
a lot of help.
The second year the kids are Iremember oh yeah I remember
doing this okay that and thenthe third year it's like yep
here let me explain it to you.
Yeah.
And that's where you really loveto see the kids on that mastery
side.
So I think you can work with amixed age group very effectively

(55:42):
and you can can challenge eachstudent at their point of
challenge for the most partthere's always going to be a few
outliers.
But even then letting them dowhat they can do and get better
at that even if it's not whatyou wish they could do or were
doing that's okay too.

SPEAKER_01 (55:58):
Love that.
Okay next question from guidessometimes you know like they'll
do a rough draft and thenthere's some feedback given
based on like the dress uprubric.
And some kids take those editsreally hard and kind of come
away with the idea that like Iam a bad writer and just kind of
reinforces the I don't like thisbecause I'm bad at it.
How can we give feedback andlike not just be like oh it's

(56:19):
fine let's not like sweep thingsunder the rug but how can we
give feedback in a way thatdoesn't make kids feel this way
or do we just not care if theyfeel that way.

SPEAKER_00 (56:26):
Well two thoughts there first one is it's really
important to communicate to themthat learning to write is like
learning anything else learningto cook, learning to play a
musical instrument, learning asport.
You don't you don't just wake upone morning able to do those
things you need a coach you needfeedback you need someone to

(56:49):
show you a slightly better wayto do one of those things you're
trying to do.
Otherwise you just keep doing itthe way you're doing it you
won't improve.
So I always say to kids lookyou're a writer like it or not
you're stuck here every writerhas an editor but your editor is
not telling you you were wrongor bad your editor is trying to

(57:12):
help you be the best version ofyourself.
You know I'd be an idiot towrite something and send it out
to thousands of people withouthaving at least one person,
hopefully several people look atit and give me suggestions or
feedback.
And it doesn't mean that I waswrong or bad.
It means wow there's someonewith an objective eye who could

(57:34):
give me a better way to say thatwell that's good for me.
And then in implementing thatsuggestion I actually learn oh
here's another differentprobably better way to do that.
And kids range fromperfectionistic any kind of
criticism just breaks me intopieces to I couldn't care less
what you think.

(57:54):
I'm gonna do whatever I wantanyway and you can just go edit
yourself.
And and there's that range but Ithink we can work within that
the other thing and I point thisout too is I think the best kind
of editing comes with no lectureattached.
Just get the kid's paper, fixthe spelling put in the period

(58:15):
in the capital cross out theword that doesn't work put in
the word that does work make itinto a complete sentence but I
take the approach make as fewedits as possible to make it
legal.
Don't try to make it good, justtry to make it legal.
Hand it back with no lectureattached don't try to explain
why you made all those changesbecause that's when the kids is

(58:37):
hearing like they don't likethat.
So just give it back hereimplement these changes turn it
in one last time and you're doneand I'm a proponent of the a
slash I grading model.
You can get an A or you can getan I there's no other B.
There's no option there's no Bor C.
So it's A for accepted oraccomplished that means you did

(59:00):
100% of the things on thechecklist or it's an I mean
incomplete you're not finishedyet.
What did you miss?
I will help you figure out howto get that into your paper.
You put it in produce a finalversion you get an A.
You just have to be sure thatall the parents and everybody
involved isn't comparing andsaying well this A is so much

(59:20):
more creative and well writtenthan this other A.
That's not what you're gradingon.
You're grading on accomplisheddid they do the assignment and
you just assume they did to thebest of their creativity or
ability and that's that's thebest way to go.
You know, Plato said that whichis honored will be cultivated.
So if you spend lots of timeletting them know what you like

(59:42):
about what they did and notgiving lectures on what they
should have done better, you'llget more of what you like and
then they can just fix up inthis kind of anonymous non
personal way oh yeah that's thatword is spelled that way and oh
yeah I should have Comma thereand oh yeah, that word didn't
really make sense.
I just couldn't think of abetter one.

(01:00:04):
That's a better one.
Okay, so then you're growing.
It's like modeling.
So I think the best thing is forthe, you know, teachers and
parents and mentors and coachesto remember it's very much like
playing a musical instrument orlearning a sport.
You have to have a coach ifyou're going to improve.
And there's absolutely no stigmaattached to that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:26):
Yeah.
And like even you could get abook and say, like, this
person's a published author, andlet's find the name of their
editor in here.
You know, like they even have aneditor, Michael Phelps, whoever
like their sports idol is.
Like that person has a coach.
And their coach isn't like, likeevery day they're not like
Michael Phelps, you're bad.
Like, swim better.
Like, that's not what coachingis, right?
It's like, I'm giving you actualadvice.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:45):
I just tell the kids too.
You know, and I tell the kids,your editor may make a change,
but you do have the final say.
If you don't like the changethey made, you don't have to
accept it.
And that gives them the finalagency, which I think that's
what they they really appreciatetoo.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:02):
Okay, one quick last question.
Let's talk about spelling forhalf a second.
I'm all for, and maybe you'reagainst this, I'll have to let
me know.
Like early, early days, you'relearning how to read still,
right?
You're like writing in my mindlooks like if you've got all of
the sounds like represented in aword, awesome, we should
celebrate that, right?
Like, when do we make thetransition?
Maybe you disagree.

(01:01:23):
Feel free to disagree with that.
Um, but when do we make thetransition from like great,
you're like getting your wordsout on paper to like, and now
there's an expectation thatthese words be spelled
correctly?
And like, how do you bridge theminto working on spelling?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:36):
Well, a few things to keep in mind here.
Number one, spelling has nothingto do with the language function
of the brain.
So kids are over in the languagepart of their brain trying to
find the words to attach, putthe words into a logical order
that makes sense into asentence, and then put sentences

(01:01:58):
into a logical sequence.
That's a language function.
So one of the problems thathappens is they want to write a
word and they they know thatmaybe they could spell it, but
what they would have to do isleave the language part of their
brain, go all the way over tothe spelling part of their
brain, search around in thelittle discs there, grab that

(01:02:19):
word and carry it all the wayback.
And by the time they've donethat, they forgot what they even
want to do with that word, andthey have to go back and
reconstruct the idea.
So you'll very often see thatkids will misspell a word that
they might be able to spell ondemand when they're in the
middle of writing.
So, you know, I usually say, youknow, give it your best shot, or

(01:02:39):
I'll be your human dictionary,but we'll fix it up later.
And then, you know, you you havesome kind of spelling program or
something you're using.
Hopefully, you can look at thewords that they are most likely
to want to use and not spellcorrectly and get those into
some spelling lists and allthat.
Really, spelling is a huge, deepconcept.
It's it's a huge, deep questionabout what is spelling and how

(01:03:04):
does the brain do it and what'sthe best ways to learn it or
not.
It deserves more than a coupleminutes.
But you know, I would say forthe most part, I try to keep
those separate until the studenthas got so much faculty with
fun, they can start tointegrate.
You use the analogy of driving,very good analogy.

(01:03:25):
When you first start doing it,it's like, okay, you know, the
wheel, the mirrors, the othercars, these pedals, I can do
this and not kill us.
And then after you've been at it10 years, you can, you know,
drink lattes, check your phone,look for cops, you know, think
about things, play youraudiobook.
You can do all sorts of thingswhile you're driving and not
even notice that you're doingit.

(01:03:46):
So it just does take time.
And for, you know, parents, thatoften translates into patience.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:52):
Yeah.
I think there's also this likesocietal pressure that like uh I
feel the same thing about uhhandwriting.
It's like this signal ofintelligence.
Like if you're a good speller,if you good handwriting, and a
lot of times as parents,especially if you've chosen to
do something like an alternativeeducation choice, you're kind of
like on the hook for like beinga little bit judged.
People are judging your choicebased on like your kids.

(01:04:13):
And I think like that can bereally damaging to the child to
like involve your own, like kindof am I doing the the right
things as a parent?
kind of in there.
So keeping that separate andjust really creating the space
for the kid to learn at theirown pace and giving them the
resources and the feedback thatthey need and the encouragement.
I love how positive you'reencouraging us all to be calling
out what they're doing well andthings like that.

(01:04:33):
I think that's that's reallygonna help kids get the skills.
Like sometimes we just it's wefeel like it's a trade-off,
right?
Like, I want this to be likereally cushy and I want them to
like it and things like that.
So I'm gonna withhold myfeedback and I'm gonna give them
a lower expectation so they havethis good vibe feeling, but
really we're just undercuttingtheir skills, which is not gonna
lead to long-term competence,which is actually what the the

(01:04:55):
child's future self reallywants.
You know, like that's that's thething that is going to actually
allow them to use their agencyand their autonomy to accomplish
what they want is thatcompetency.
So, like we've got to put thesethings together.
Uh, I think that sometimes Ithink I am probably uh a
proponent of like, like Iprobably err on the side of like

(01:05:15):
be more gentle or like want themto like it.
Like when you were just like, Idon't care if if you like it or
not.
I was like, that was actuallykind of freeing for me to hear
because like I do kind of careif they like it.
And I think like we can do a lotmore in education to build
relationships and be gentle withkids and things like that.
But that's not what I'm nothearing you say, like, just be
ruthless with them.
Like that's not what you'resaying at all.

(01:05:35):
Like you can do both things.
Like you can build a goodrelationship, you can have
strong rapport, you can givefeedback, and you don't have to
lower your expectations.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:42):
Well, and if they're getting better, you know, even
slowly, they will start to likeit or at least dislike it less
because they're getting better.
And then one day they may wakeup and say, Hey, this is my
favorite thing about school.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:57):
And then I I've even heard stories of, you know,
10-year-old boys who hatedwriting cried just with the
sight of it, and at 14 werewriting their first novel.
So and kids grow up a lot duringthat time period, too.
So you have to always keep inmind that there's a
developmental change that'sgonna happen as well.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:14):
Love it.
Okay, let's wrap up.
How can people learn more aboutIEW or your work in general?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:19):
Well, we have an easy website, iew.com, and we
have tons of resources.
AndrewPudua.com.
It redirects you to a page thathas a lot of conference talks
and YouTube videos and things,for example, on motivation,
spelling, some of the thingsthat we we didn't have time to
unpack here fully.
Um I also have a podcast calledthe Arts of Language Podcast.

(01:06:42):
We drop one episode once a week.
Short form 20 minutes.
You can listen while you'retaking your walk for the day.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:48):
Love it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:50):
I know.
Tons of information available.
And uh we have a super customerservice team, all of whom of
whom were either homeschool kidsnow grown up who used our
writing stuff or homeschool momswho taught our writing stuff.
And uh, so if you have anyquestions about our materials or
curriculum, just call our teamand they'll love to find out
what your situation is and helpyou figure out the best thing

(01:07:11):
for you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:12):
But yeah, your team is actually super, super
helpful.
I agree with that.
Um, and then last question Whois someone in your upbringing
who has kindled your motivation,your passion, your helped helped
you become who you are?

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:25):
Well, I've been blessed with several great
mentors in my life, but if I hadto choose one, I would probably
choose Dr.
Shinichi Suzuki, who created theSuzuki Music School, or in
Japanese, it would translatemore directly as the talent
education method.
And uh I grew up playing theviolin, one of the early Suzuki

(01:07:48):
kids in Southern California inthe 60s and early 70s, and then
1982, 1985, I lived in Japan,studied with Suzuki, and while
there you could go off and talkabout him for hours.
The one thing that I would putat the pinnacle of his of his
extraordinary self, he believedin people.

(01:08:12):
He believed in me, he believedthat every child could learn and
that we could, as teachers andparents, we could find the right
method, the right circumstance,the right environment, the right
attitudes that we could we couldhelp every child reach high
levels of excellence andlearning.

(01:08:34):
And he just believed ineverybody.
Even people who didn't seem tobe all that talented.
He believed in them.
And he just loved that this thisphenomenal love that he had for
people was truly a a saintlyquality.
And I think he's one of he isprobably the greatest human
being I've had the privilege ofmeeting, probably one of the

(01:08:56):
greatest human beings of hiscentury.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:58):
Amazing.
What an example.
All right.
Well, let's wrap up.
Thank you so much for coming onthe Kindled Podcast.
This has been a veryinformative, exciting
conversation for me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:07):
I've enjoyed it.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:08):
The Kindled Podcast is brought to you by Prenda.
Prenda makes it easy to startand run an amazing microschool
based on all the ideas we talkabout here on the Kindled
Podcast.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media at Prenda Learn.
And if you'd like moreinformation about starting a
microschool, just go toPrenda.com.
Thanks for listening andremember to keep Kindling.

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