Episode 78: Kids Do Well if They Can. A Conversation with Stuart Ablon.

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Empathy isn't agreeing or disagreeing.
And it's not just sort of tryingto talk a kid out of what
they're feeling.
Empathy is really trying tounderstand what they're feeling.
And there's going to be time forus to work on that cognitive
distortion that that child hasthat affects their self-esteem
so badly.
But right now, I'm just in thebusiness of trying to
understand.

SPEAKER_01 (00:18):
Hi, and welcome to the Kindle Podcast.
I'm Katie, your host for today.
And in this episode, we're goingto talk about the real root
cause of what we commonly referto as behavior issues in kids.
I know this is a hot topic, andI'm super excited to share all
these tips with you today.
I love every conversation thatwe have here on the Kindle
Podcast, but this one reallystands out as one of the most
valuable conversations that I'vehad to date.

(00:40):
You're going to leave betterunderstanding the behaviors that
you're seeing from your kids oryour students, and you'll know
exactly how you can help themimprove that without using fear,
punishments, rewards, anythinglike that.
And that might sound too good tobe true, but I assure you that
it is absolutely real.
We teach all of these strategiesin our advanced guide training
course at Prenda, and I'm superexcited to share with all of you

(01:00):
this amazing approach because Iknow that it works, and I see it
work in all of our microschools,and I see it work with my own
kids, and I'm just super excitedto unpack this for you today.
So we are talking to Dr.
Stuart Ablon, and I'm gonna tellyou a little bit about him, and
then we will get to ourconversation.
So, Stuart Ablon is the founderand director of Think Kids in
the Department of Psychiatry atMassachusetts General Hospital.

(01:23):
An award-winning psychologist,Dr.
Ablon is an associate professorand the Thomas G.
Stemburg Endowed Chair in Childand Adolescent Psychiatry at
Harvard Medical School.
He is the author of three books,Changeable, which was
hand-picked by Malcolm Gladwell,Adam Grant, Dan Pink, and Susan
Kane for their next big ideaclub, which is a huge honor.
His other book is called TheSchool Discipline Fix, and he's

(01:46):
also written Treating ExplosiveKids, The Collaborative Problem
Solving Approach.
So let's get to our conversationwith Dr.
Avalon.
Dr.
Avalon, thank you so much forcoming on the Kindle Podcast.
We are so excited to have youtoday.

SPEAKER_00 (01:58):
It's a pleasure to be here.
I really appreciate you havingme.

SPEAKER_01 (02:02):
All right, so back us up in your story a little
bit.
Tell us who you are.
Like, how did you come into thework that you're doing?
What is like, what would youcall?
We call it at prendo your bigwhy.
Like, why are you doing the workthat you're doing?
What is the change you'reseeking to make in the world?

SPEAKER_00 (02:17):
All right.
Big questions to start.
I'll answer the last one firstso I don't forget it.
The change that I'm hoping tohelp be a part of making in the
world is really helping peopleto better understand why some
kids struggle with theirbehavior and really to
understand that through a muchmore accurate and humane,

(02:38):
compassionate lens.
Because what I've found over theyears is if you really help
people understand why kids arestruggling, the sort of how to
help almost flows naturally fromthere.
And sadly, I think for a long,long time, not just for kids,
but anybody for that matter,we've really misunderstood why
people struggle with theirbehavior.
And as a result, a lot of kidshave been really uh mistreated.

(03:01):
And frankly, we we've lost a lotof opportunities and caused a
lot of damage along the way, noton purpose, but because we've
sort of been guided by the wrongideas.
So that's my why.
How did I come to this?
I was very fortunate to, ingraduate school, have sort of a
split existence where on the onehand, I was working with um guy

(03:22):
who specialized in working withkids with externalizing
difficulties, challengingbehaviors of different kinds.
And on the other side, I wasstudying different types of
therapy intensively.
And we were literally likerecording hours and hours of
therapy.
And I and my classmates werecoding these hours across a
hundred different variables andthen using those variables to

(03:45):
predict when therapy washelpful.
What about it was helpful?
And these two worlds werecolliding for me because, on the
one hand, most of the time whenit comes to challenging
behavior, we were focused ontrying to discipline kids, to
use rewards and consequences tochange their behavior, sort of
using mechanisms of power andcontrol, if you will.
But then what I was finding inmy therapy research is that

(04:07):
there was only one reliablepredictor of helping anybody to
change their behavior, anyways.
And frankly, it's also the mostpowerful one.
And what we were founding, andthis has been found found by
tons of other psychotherapyresearchers, is that that one
reliable predictor, the mostpowerful predictor of helping
somebody to change, is thedegree of helping relationship

(04:28):
that you have with the personyou're trying to help.
And so I was leaving graduateschool thinking, okay, wait a
second, you got to figure outhow to build a helping
relationship.
That's the most important thing.
And yet, with kids withchallenging behavior, we often
blame them for their behaviorand try to use power and control
to correct it.
Like those two things don't gotogether.

(04:49):
And then I was lucky enough tocome back to Mass General
Hospital, where I'd been aresearch assistant before for my
post-doctor, uh predoctoral andpostdoctoral internships and
fellowships, and started workingwith Dr.
Ross Green at the time, who wasworking on the book The
Explosive Child that he wrote,that was positing some of these
original ideas about that, youknow, kids who struggle with

(05:11):
their behavior, that it isn't alack of motivation.
What he was reviewing is decadesof research in neuropsychology
that showed us that what I liketo say is these kids they don't
lack the will to behave well.
What they lack are the skills tobehave well.
And that started what was a morethan decade uh collaboration
with him and the work that I'vebeen doing for 30 years since.

SPEAKER_01 (05:36):
That's amazing.
Yes, I love Dr.
Ross Green and I we werevisiting before the podcast.
I'll just tell a quick story ofhow Prenda came into contact
with your work.
I was writing the very firstPrenda guide training.
This was back in like 2019, andKelly, Prenda's founder, and I
were kind of like intuiting alot of this, treating kids
differently, treating kids morecompassionately, building
relationships first, like doingthis.

(05:58):
And I would kind of try to likeexplain it to moms at the park,
and they were like, no, likethat would never work.
Like, I just like give me thesticker chart, like get the
grades out.
Like, we have to take a superhard line with kids, or like
they'll just play video gamesall day, or they'll just sit
there, they'll do nothing.
And it's just not what we wereseeing as we were like actually
in the trenches, like buildingrelationships with kids and like

(06:19):
inviting them into the learningspace.
We saw them like be very eagerand very curious, and like we
were unlocking a lot ofmotivation in them without any
of these tools, right?
So I was trying to find some,like, you know, I'm not I don't
have your experience or researchor anything like that.
So the moms at the park were notlistening to me.
And so I finally I did a littlebit more digging and found um

(06:42):
your work and Dr.
Ross Green's work and wasfinally, finally able to connect
them with more of like a methodand the research that was like,
this is what I'm feeling, thisis what we're doing.
But here's some actual likemethod behind it.
And we, as soon as we startedapplying the approach, like we
saw night and day changes withkids that were really, really
hard.
A lot of the people that comeinto Prenda, especially early

(07:04):
days Prenda, like their kidsjust school does not work for
their child, right?
Their child is so unhappy.
All of these stories are likekids are crying, holding on to
the car, like, do not drop meoff at this building.
Their anxiety is through theroof or their behaviors are out
of control, right?
Like, so their their parents arein a high degree of pain, I
would say, around the wholeeducation space.

(07:26):
They're looking for a differentoption.
And so a lot of them came intoprend on.
So we had to figure out how arewe going to help these kids who
in a different setting would belike labeled and classified as
very extreme behavior cases.

SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Yes.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (07:38):
And we started applying the approach and it was
just like night and day.
So really appreciate your workand how it's influenced all of
all of our work.

SPEAKER_00 (07:45):
Well, I'm thrilled to hear that.
And it's I mean, it sounds like,you know, like many people, you
had come to some of these ideason your own through a a lot of
experience, as you said, in thetrenches, sort of working in
really challengingcircumstances.
And, you know, I think one ofthe difficulties is you talked
about the sort of the moms atthe park wouldn't listen.
Well, you know, just like welike to say kids do well if they

(08:06):
can, moms do well if they cantoo.
And so do dads like me.
You know, we all do well if wecan.
But when we're equipped with outto out-of-date ideas, you know,
sort of conventional wisdom thathas been disproven, but we're
still hanging on to those ideas,we're doing the best we can, but
we may be missing the boat.
And, you know, when you talkabout, you know, kids who
struggle so much at school andpeople thinking they just need a

(08:28):
hard that people take a hardline with them.
You know, I always remind peoplethe kids who aren't having a
hard time at school, the kidswho are going willingly, the
kids who are participating inthe learning and doing their
homework and stuff like this,it's not because they always
love every aspect of it.
It's not because they're likesupremely motivated at all
moments for this.

(08:49):
It's that they have the skillsto handle what's being thrown at
them.
And that's the thing about ushumans.
We like to meet people'sexpectations.
And when we have the skills todo it, you know, we're quite
willing to do so.
But the other thing youmentioned, Katie, is motivation.
And I'm sure we're gonna delvemore into motivation because of
course there's different typesof motivation, and I think
that's important to clarify forfolks.

SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
Absolutely.
So let's kind of go back alittle bit for listeners who are
not familiar with this approach.
Can you take us through likecollaborative problem solving?
Take us through the start withthe three plans and kind of like
describe, like just frame,compare the three plans kind of
framing with traditionaldiscipline and education framing
for us.

SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Sure.
And first, I think we can justfor a moment back up one step
further back because what wecovered really quickly is
crucial, because the plans andeverything about collaborative
problem solving doesn'tnecessarily make sense unless
you are looking through the lensof kids do well if they can,
students do well if they can,all kids are doing the best they
can to manage what the world isthrowing at them with the skills

(09:50):
they have.
And if they're struggling, it'smuch more about skill, not will.
So, with that mindset in mind,because I think the mindset is
more than half the battle, yes,then with collaborative problem
solving, what we do is we arevery practical with folks.
We say, pick anything that akid's doing you don't want them
to do or not doing that you wantthem to do, anything.
And ultimately, you've only gotthree options, and you know,

(10:13):
refer to those already.
They're the three plans.
And they've existed since thebeginning of time.
You know, we didn't invent theseplants, we just put labels on
them so that folks like yourteams can have a good way of
referring to them with eachother.
We call it plan A when peopletry to impose their will to make
a child do what they want themto do.
Plan A is the runaway favoriteamongst us adults, parents,

(10:34):
teachers, when kids don't dowhat we want.
We try to impose our will.
That's one option.
That's what we call plan A.
We call it plan B when you tryto collaborate with a child to
solve the problem.
And here's an importantqualifier to solve the problem
in a mutually satisfactory way.
So it's not just that you'recollaborating, it's not just
you're inviting the child tosolve this together.

(10:56):
You're inviting the child tosolve it together in a way that
you're both gonna be happy with.
We call that plan B.
And the third option we callplan C.
Plan C is when you decide, youknow, for now, not forever, but
right here in this moment, I'mgonna drop this expectation or
I'm gonna solve the problem theway the child wants it solved.
And just to be clear, that's notgiving in, which most people
fear it is.

(11:17):
Giving in is actually when youtry plan A, you try to impose
your will and you can't pull itoff and you sort of throw up
your hands in frustration andbail.
That's giving in.
Plan C is being strategic.
It's when as a teacher, as aparent, you're saying, you know
what, I can't work on everythingall at once.
I got to put some things on theback burner, this one's not that
important, or this is not theright time to work on it, and

(11:37):
I'm gonna drop it for now, notforever.
And so those are the threeoptions: plan A, plan B, and
plan C.
Impose your will, collaboratewith the child, or drop it.

SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
Why I'm just wondering, like in your
experience, why is plan A soattractive to us?
Why is that the one that we likego to and you have to like talk
people out of?

SPEAKER_00 (11:57):
Well, because uh, you know, first, there's a lot
of conventional wisdom thathangs over all this.
And and part of thatconventional wisdom is kids
should do what they're told.
And adults are the authorityfigures and some outdated
definition of what an authorityfigure is, and that an authority
figure is somebody who bossesother people's around and those
people are just supposed tolisten, which by the way, isn't
great to begin with.

(12:18):
But if a kid doesn't have theskills to be able to meet those
expectations, it doesn't work sowell.
But you know, we're fond ofgetting our own way, us adults.
Um, you know, I've always Ialways laugh when people
describe a kid as like, youknow, he just wants his own way.
I always think to myself, whoprefers other people's ways?
I mean, I haven't met the personwho prefers other people's ways.
We all want our own way.

(12:39):
So when we have there's a powerdifferential between us and kids
and we want our way, we oftendefault to trying to impose it.
I think the other reason we dothat is we get frustrated.
And, you know, we we don't talkabout this enough, but we talk
about kids, for instance,getting dysregulated and losing
their ability to think straight.
Guess what?
It happens to us too.

(13:00):
So if you have a kid who's notdoing something you want them to
do or is doing something youdon't want them to do, and you
feel frustrated or you feelineffective as an authority
figure, or even worse, you feelscared or you feel disrespected,
that dysregulates you.
And when we humans getdysregulated, we don't use the
smart part of our brain anymore.
And we reach for power andcontrol to try to regain our

(13:24):
footing.
And I think that's one of thereasons that plan A is so
popular.
Even though when I travel theworld asking people about plan
A, everybody says to me, Oh,it's the most popular one, and
it's super popular because welike to have our expectations
met, but it doesn't do a greatjob at getting those
expectations met.
If it does, it's temporary.
It doesn't solve problems in anydurable way.

(13:45):
They'll be back to greet you.
It's not great at building thatimportant helping relationship I
talked about earlier.
And there's nothing aboutimposing your will upon a kid
that helps that kid build theskills that they're struggling
with that are leading to thedifficulties in the first place.
So, in other words, plan A issuper popular, but super
limited.

SPEAKER_01 (14:04):
Yeah, it's really easy to do this with very small
children because part of thepower differential is a size
differential, right?
Like you are bigger than them,you are stronger than them, you
control all of these screens,all of the sugar, all of the
things that they want.
You control them, right?
So then you can control thatchild.
And it's like, wow, you're atyrant.
Relations.
If you can't like that'sliterally the definition of

(14:25):
like, we would never want to beruled like that by an authority
figure, yet we like apply that.
And then I see my kids gettingolder.
My 12-year-old, he weighs almostas much as I do, and he's like
two inches taller or likeshorter than me.
I'm like, we are very like, I wewrestle all the time, and I
cannot beat him.
Wrestling, like this powerdifferential is very limited.

(14:46):
You only have a few years whereyou really can lean into that as
an adult if you want to.
And so it's really importantthat you spend those early years
building the relationship thatyou're talking about so that you
can have long-term influenceinstead of using plan A to get
short-term compliance.

SPEAKER_00 (15:02):
And absolutely, because as you're pointing out,
what what are you going to dowhen they get bigger and
stronger than you?

SPEAKER_01 (15:06):
Yeah, if that's all you've ever used, then you're
done.
You're cooked.

SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (15:10):
So there has to be another way.

SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
Not to mention, as I think we're, you know, dancing
around a little bit here too,even if you could impose your
will to get a kid to do what youwant them to do, there are
downsides to that.
And and I'm not saying, by theway, that you should never
impose your will.
It's evil to do that ever.
No, of course not.
There are times and places.
But if that's your defaultparenting strategy.

(15:34):
And I think we should clarifyfor something for folks, because
when people hear impose yourwill and they hear me, for
instance, saying, hey, youshould try to avoid that, they
think that you can't ask yourkid to do anything.
And that like asking them to dosomething is off limits in
collaborative problem solving.
Not at all.
There's a huge differencebetween setting an expectation,

(15:56):
asking your child to dosomething, a student to do
something, and when they don'tdo it, imposing your will.
And I think it's reallyimportant to clarify for folks
these three plans are onlyneeded when you have a problem.
In other words, an expectationthat's not being met.
And you can't have anexpectation that isn't being met
until you have an expectation.
So this is not about avoidingasking kids to do things.

(16:17):
No, absolutely.
Set your expectations.
But when they're not gettingmet, you got three options.
And plan A is not the only one.

SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
Yeah, I think it's really helpful to define that.
Like, I don't like to use likethe term like bad behavior or
something.
It's like there is anexpectation that's at work in
this environment, and the childis unable to meet that
expectation, and that's anunsolved problem.
And I think that that's it justneutralizes.
It helps me stay regulated toknow, like, oh, this isn't a
problem.
I'm just like observing thesituation like a scientist would

(16:47):
and knowing that we have anunmet expectation and that the
key to solving that iscollaborating with the kid and
figuring out a plan.
It's not a sticker chart, it'snot time out, it's not me
yelling at them.
It's not, you know, like thosethings, like you said, don't
help them.
If the root cause of theirbehavior was that they were like
manipulating me, I think I hearthat a lot from parents.
It's like, oh, like they're justtrying to get attention or like

(17:10):
they're manipulating you orsomething like that.
It's just like, wow,manipulation.
So I think something that you'vesaid is like manipulation is a
very like impressive skill tohave.
Like it's very, like, you know,it's a difficult thing to do to
manipulate someone.
And most four-year-olds don'thave that ability to actually
like intentionally manipulatesomeone, right?
Like they're probably just doingthe best that they can in the

(17:31):
situation to either have theirneeds met or to express their
their will, right?
Which is puts them in the campof completely normal human, not
degenerate behavior issue.

SPEAKER_00 (17:42):
Yeah, you know, the word when we say people, you
know, kids are sort of a mastermanipulator or something, you
know, manipulation gets a uhsort of a bad name.
The reality is a lot of timesmanipulation is just trying
people trying to get what theyneed and what they want.
Where we get upset is whenpeople do that in sort of less
than adaptive ways.
And I always say to myself, whywould somebody try to go in the

(18:04):
back door to get a need met ifthey didn't think the front door
was closed?
Like there's something awrythere.
And and as you pointed out, alot of the kids I work with too
that people think are mastermanipulators, uh, they struggle
with all the kinds of skillsthat if I were picking a
manipulation team, I would neverpick a kid for my manipulation

(18:24):
team who struggled with thoseskills.

SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
Yeah, totally, totally.
Okay, so let's dig into plan B.
Can you just kind of take usthrough like if there's a
three-step plan in plan B, canyou like maybe we can even
roleplay or you could like kindof give us, tell us some
stories, even um of how to applythis.

SPEAKER_00 (18:40):
Yeah, sure.
And so we just talked about thedownsides of plan A, right?
Uh, we should just mentionquickly plan C has its places,
right?
Plan C is a you pick your spotsto decide to drop something that
can reduce challenging behavior.
It's not uh, you know, it's nota solution to a problem, but it
has its place strategically.
And as a parent, as a teacher,you're still in charge if you're

(19:02):
using plan C because you'redeciding to do it.
It's your choice strategically.

SPEAKER_01 (19:07):
It's almost just a quick analogy that's coming to
my mind right now.
It's almost like when you'regoing to the gym, it's like,
okay, today at the gym is a legday.
Like I'm not saying like I don'tcare about my arm muscles or my
back muscles.
It's like I'm just focusing onlegs today, right?
We do this as adults all thetime.
We're prioritizing, we'recurating like what we're going
to work on in that situation, inthat setting.
And that's what we're justdoing.

(19:28):
We're we maybe, maybe there's ahundred expectations on this
kid's shoulder and he's meeting90 of them.
And there's a remaining 10 thatare causing some issues.
And we have to look at that listof 10 and be like, what's the
biggest issue?
Like, let's we can only reallywork on one or two things.
We can't, we can't go to the gymand work on everything every
day.

SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
Exactly.
So you have to prioritize,right?
So some things are going to beon the back burner for now or
for Monday or what have you.
Yes.
Now, this I think the thing thatwe as adults get stuck in
sometimes is just alternatingbetween plans A and C.
So imposing our will or tryingto when it matters to us enough,
dropping it when it doesn't.
The problem with that is neitherof those end up really solving

(20:06):
the problem.
It lives on.
Neither of those are great atbuilding relationship or
building skills.
And I always like to remindpeople, you don't get plan B by
the average of A and C.
You actually have to dosomething different if you
really want to buildrelationship and build skills
and solve a problem in a durableway.
And that, you know, that bringsyou to what you wanted to walk
through here, which is theprocess of doing collaborative

(20:28):
problem solving.
And I always tell people itseems easy on the face of it.
And what's important to say isit's not easy, but it is simple.
It's simple in the sense thatthere's only three ingredients
to this process, but there's alot packed into them.
So first ingredient we call theempathy ingredient.
It is the hardest, far and awaythe hardest.
We adults have a lot of we havea hard time with empathy.

(20:51):
We often think we're beingempathic when really we're just
like saying something to a kidlike, I can see you're really
upset, but that's not empathy.
The the word empathy means tounderstand.
So in the first ingredient, whatyou're really trying to do is
you're trying to understandspecifically the child's
concern, their perspective,their point of view, what they

(21:14):
care about, or what's hard forthem about whatever situation
you're talking about, whateverproblem you're trying to solve.
And I always tell people it'snot until you really understand
the child's perspective, theirconcern, that you can move to
the second ingredient, which iswhere you get to share your
perspective or your concern,what you're worried about, your
point of view, not yoursolution.

(21:37):
Okay, this is a big misstep forus adults.
We often, even when we do a goodjob of hearing the kid out, we
usually then say, okay, I hearyou, but and then we tell them
our solution.
No, which we need to do is justshare our concern, why we're
talking about this in the firstplace, why this is an issue in
our mind.
And only once you have two setsof concerns on the table, first

(21:58):
ingredient's getting theirconcern on the table, second
ingredient's sharing yours, doyou move to the third
ingredient, which is where youinvite the child to collaborate
with you to try to solve theproblem.
And solve it how?
In a mutually satisfactory way.
Because you just spend a gooddeal of time figuring out each
party's perspective or point ofview or concerns.
Now what you do is you say,okay, so how can we solve this

(22:20):
together so that both of us arehappy?
So it addresses both of ourconcerns.
And um, I always tell people,give the kid first crack at it.
Always give the first kid firstcrack at generating solutions
for multiple reasons, really.
I mean, it's a way to increaseinvestment for the child.
That's a way for the kid topractice, it's a way for you to

(22:42):
see what skills that the childstruggles with.
But if they are having a hardtime coming up with solutions,
you jump in and you can help asmuch or as little as is needed.
But the goal is not to alreadyhave a preordained solution in
the back of your mind thatyou're just trying to get them
to.
The goal is any solution that ismutually satisfactory,
realistic, and doable.

SPEAKER_01 (23:04):
So let's walk through one.
Let's pretend that I'm a kid whois having a really hard time not
talking to my neighbor duringlike math time, where the
expectation is sit quietly andwork independently.
And I'm talking to my neighborall the time and you're my
teacher.
Like, how do we, how do westart?

SPEAKER_00 (23:20):
Yeah, well, so the first thing you do is you
realize that the worst possibletime to do problem solving with
this is when you're talking toyour neighbor during math.
If this is a predictableproblem, it should be on your
list of problems to be solved.
And you can, in a quiet moment,when you're not frustrated, say,
how do I want to handle this?
I've got three options A, B, andC.
And if this is one you want totry to start working on, you

(23:42):
catch the student when they'recalm, when they're accessible,
and when you've had some time tothink about this a little bit.
So for instance, if you were theteacher, I would say to you,
what are you worried about?
Tell me your concern, yourperspective.
Let's be clear about that at theoutset so that when it comes
time to share it, you'll have itnice and short and sweet and
ready to share.

(24:02):
And I could guess what it is.
But what for example, what doyou think the teacher's concern
here would be?

SPEAKER_01 (24:08):
I feel like my role, like what I'm my main worry as a
teacher is is everyone havingthe opportunity to learn.
And to me, that maybe means inlike not being distracted.
And so I'm worried, I'm actuallyas a teacher judged based on the
academic performance of all ofmy students, right?
And so if someone's distractingone of my students, one, they're
not working, so that's gonnaaffect me.

(24:29):
And then the the other studentthat's being distracted is not
making progress, so that's gonnaaffect them.
So it's it's not good for theirlong-term future selves.
And it like is going to, in aselfish kind of way, like make
me look bad as a teacher whenthey when they don't have like
good outcomes.
I'm being like super real rightnow.

SPEAKER_00 (24:48):
No, no, I appreciate the honesty.
And this is what I try to dowith folks is drill down with
the adults.
What do we care about?
And I I'm hearing you care aboutthree things.

SPEAKER_01 (24:57):
Yeah, I I'm gonna add one actually.
Like it's also like maybedisrespectful to me, right?
Like the expectation is that wesit quietly.

SPEAKER_00 (25:04):
And if you're not sitting quietly, like you don't
care about my rules, maybe, orlike you, you know, you Well,
and so the first thing I wouldsay to you, this would be a
great conversation to havebefore you go problem solving
with the student, because thefirst thing I would remind you
of is that that student'sbehavior is about skill, not
will.
And let's be careful not tointerpret that student's talking

(25:25):
as a willful sign of disrespectto you.
My guess is that's not what it'sabout.
And to our earlier point, if yougo into the conversation
thinking that this is adisrespectful kid who, you know,
uh needs to show you morerespect as a teacher, you're not
in a good position to hear them,understand their perspective,
their point of view.

(25:45):
So this is where the mindsetcomes in.
Think skill not will, kids doingthe best they can.
And that will allow you to sortof put that concern aside,
especially if we solve thisproblem, you're no longer going
to be feeling disrespected.
We'll be good.
Which is the same thing I willsay about your concern about
sort of your effectiveness as ateacher and how you're judged as
a teacher.
If we can solve this problem sothat the student isn't

(26:06):
distracting others anddistracting themselves from the
work too, that'll get addressed.
So right now, the sort of mostpressing concerns are you are
worried that this student ismissing out on learning and
getting in the way of thelearning of their classmates.
Those are your concerns.
And the nice thing is you canput that in one sentence because

(26:27):
we adults have a tendency,myself included, to drone on and
kids start to sort of dissociateand tune out.
So we we know what your concernis now?
Great.
Now we're ready to have theconversation with the student.
We're gonna catch them whenthey're calm.
If you were the student, I wouldstart off the conversation by
being very careful not to makethis about your behavior and put

(26:48):
you on the defensive immediatelyby saying something like, I've
noticed that you've been verydisruptive during math and
you're really getting in the wayof everybody's learning.
I mean, what kid is gonna wantto engage in that conversation,
right?
So what I do is I use an oldclinical trick, you know, I'm a
clinical psychologist, we callexternalizing the problem, which
means make the problem theproblem, not the kid or the

(27:09):
behavior the problem.
So I would say to you somethinglike, hey, I wanted to talk to
you about math a little bit,because I've noticed that
there's something that doesn'tseem to be working so great
about the individual time wherewe're supposed to be working on
our math.
What is it about that math timethat isn't working so great for
you?
What do you think?
Fill me in.

SPEAKER_01 (27:27):
Well, it's really hard, and I just feel like I'm
not very smart at math, and so Ijust kind of hate it.

SPEAKER_00 (27:34):
So it's r it's really hard to do for you.

SPEAKER_01 (27:37):
Yeah, the mat I just don't really get it.

SPEAKER_00 (27:40):
You don't get it.
It's really hard and then itmakes you feel badly about
yourself, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_01 (27:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
Okay.
So like when you're supposed tobe sort of focused on it and
doing it by yourself while yourclassmates are doing theirs,
you're having a hard timegetting started with it because
you don't quite get it?
Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 (28:00):
Yeah, I like try a bunch, and then like I just feel
like this voice in my head justthat tells me that like I'm
really stupid and that I likeI'm not a math kid.
And like I just don't know whatto do with that, so I just kind
of like get really panicky.

SPEAKER_00 (28:14):
Wow.
Okay.
So this makes you feel reallybad about yourself.
And you're trying actuallyreally hard to get it.
Actually, it seems to me you'relike trying probably harder than
your classmates because it's notsort of coming to you and makes
you feel really good.

SPEAKER_01 (28:29):
Everyone else just gets it immediately.
It's really easy for them.
So that probably that that Imean, I'm probably just kind of
dumb.

SPEAKER_00 (28:36):
So you're sort of looking around and feeling like
other people are able to do thisreally easily, and because it's
not coming easily to you, you'refeeling really badly and feeling
like you're dumb.

unknown (28:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:48):
Can I interrupt our little role play for a moment
here?

SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
Uh yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
Because I want to say something really important.
It's so tempting as an adultwhen you hear something so
painful that a child says likethat to immediately jump in and
say, you're not dumb at all.
I've seen the brilliant thingsyou do.
Don't worry, this is just maths,everybody's got something
they're working on.
This is just hard for you.
I know how smart you are.
The reason I didn't do that isthat empathy isn't agreeing or

(29:14):
disagreeing.
And it's not just sort of tryingto talk a kid out of what
they're feeling.
Empathy is really trying tounderstand what they're feeling.
And there's going to be time forus to work on that cognitive
distortion that that child hasthat affects their self-esteem
so badly.
But right now, I'm just in thebusiness of trying to
understand.
I'm not supplying myperspective, my point of view.

(29:35):
Remember, that's the secondingredient.
First ingredient is justunderstanding.
And if folks, when they'relistening, are saying, okay, so
if I'm trying this, guide me.
How do you how do you do whatthat that was?
It's not rocket science.
It's asking questions, it'staking guesses if need be.
It's when the child communicatessomething to you, it's repeating

(29:57):
back to them in your own wordsso that you can really check if
you've got.
It and if they're really gettingupset, shutting down, or
escalating, it's reassuring themthat they're not in trouble,
that you really are just tryingto understand and you know there
must be an important reason thatin this case math is hard for
them.
And that's all you want to do inthis first ingredient.
And we would keep this goinguntil I really felt like I had

(30:18):
it and you felt like I had it,because I would summarize it
again.
I would say, so if I'm hearingyou write, you sit down to do
math, you really, really want tobe able to do it well because it
makes you feel so bad when youdon't.
And you look around and you seeother kids doing it pretty easy,
and it makes you feel dumb thatyou can't, but you just don't
get it.
And then you get reallyfrustrated and upset.

(30:40):
And I'm guessing then when I seeyou maybe talking to your
classmates and things like that,and I'm thinking, oh, they're
distracting other kids.
You're not wanting to distractother kids.
You're just stuck and don't knowwhat to do and feel bad about
yourself.
Is it is this sound right?

SPEAKER_01 (30:57):
Yeah, I'm talking to them because maybe they know the
answer.
So like our conversation startsby like me asking them a
question about math, but thenlike we start talking about what
we did at recess, and it justkind of like then I stop feeling
bad about myself because I'm nottalking, I'm not thinking about
math anymore.
And I feel like it helps me feelcalmer to like talk to someone
about something else.

SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
So you start asking one of your classmates about the
math because maybe they can helpyou because you're stuck, but
then you guys sort of starttalking about other things,
which is actually even betterbecause then you don't have to
deal with math, which is makingyou feel like crap.
Okay.
I think I get it.
Wow, this has been really hardon you.
Okay.
So um so it's really hard foryou to get started and get the

(31:39):
math.
You're feeling like crap aboutyourself because of it.
You try to get some help from uha classmate and you end up
talking about other stuff, whichdistracts you from math, and
that feels good because mathfeels so bad.
And then I'm guessing, gosh, ifI or one of your teachers gets
frustrated with you becauseyou're not paying attention to
the math, that just makes youfeel worse about yourself when

(32:00):
we're sort of missing the boatbecause the reason you're not
focusing on the math is you'renot able to get it, right?
And you really want to.

SPEAKER_01 (32:07):
Yeah, it makes sense to speak, like all of my
teachers hate me.
So I'm just kind of like thatkid, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (32:15):
And notice again, folks, if I step out of the role
play for a moment, the tendencyis to say, I don't hate you.
I'm sure that's not true thateverybody hates you.
What I would say is I would say,Whoa.
So you're saying it feels likeevery one of your teachers hates
you because you're that sort ofkid that like causes a problem
in the class.
Well, first I want to thank youfor filling me in about this.

(32:36):
And this has a this is aboutmath and about all kinds of
other stuff that's almost a lotmore important than math, too.
And you know, I guess, and bythe way, if I can pause for the
role play here, you know, Iwould, we were clear about what
our concerns are, but havingheard this student fill you in,
you have other concerns thatcame up, I think, which is
clearly about this kid'sself-esteem, right?

(32:58):
And this is why, you know, youcan have all your ducks in a
row, you think, for aconversation like this, but
until you hear a kid out, younever know where this is gonna
go.
So while I was prepared to justat this point say, well, and you
know, my concern is, not but myconcern, but and my concern is
that I really want to make sureyou're learning and your
classmates are able to learntoo, so nobody's missing out.

(33:21):
If I just shared those as myconcerns, I would be missing the
emotional boat here.
Which means what I would say atthis point is, oh, so thank you
for filling me in about allthis.
And you know, when I came totalk to you about this, I was
worried about that you weremissing out on the learning, and
some of your classmates weretoo, if you were talking about

(33:43):
things during math.
And so I was concerned about youbeing distracted and other
people, but gosh, you've reallyhelped me understand the problem
so much more.
And I guess my concern is justfiguring out a way to help you
with math, so math isn't sotough for you.
And also I guess my otherconcern is that um how you're

(34:06):
feeling about yourself becausethis is making you feel really
bad about yourself.
And you know what?
Every single kid in this classis working on something.
Um, yours just happens to bemath.
You got all kinds of otherthings you're great at.
Everybody's working onsomething.
Me too.
So I guess I guess my concern ishow do we help work on the math
so that it's doesn't make youfeel so terrible about yourself.

(34:27):
That's that's the most importantthing right now.

SPEAKER_01 (34:29):
Yeah, I really want to be good at math.
Everyone's always talking abouthow important math is, like for
our futures and getting jobs andstuff, and I really want to be
good at it.

SPEAKER_00 (34:38):
That's great.

SPEAKER_01 (34:38):
I just don't know how to get how to get there.

SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
And you know, look, being great at math would be
good, right?
It's excellent.
Math's really important.
And I guess I would also say,see, here I'm adding my
perspective yet.
And I guess what I would say isthere are a lot of really smart
people who do all kinds of greatthings in the world that are
great at other things besidemath.
But you know what?
I think we can help you withmath too.

(35:02):
So now I'm going to the thirdingredient.
I wonder what we could do sothat you're not feeling so stuck
in math that you end up sort ofgetting distracted and feeling
terrible about yourself.
So I wonder what we could doabout that so that you would
feel better about yourself andcould feel like you're making

(35:23):
progress in math, and at thesame time, then it wouldn't be
distracting to you and otherpeople.
Do you have any ideas how wecould start working on this
together?

SPEAKER_01 (35:34):
Can I like not sit by James?
James is like, I really want totalk to James a lot, and maybe
if I just sat by someone else,like I wouldn't want to talk to
them so much, maybe?

SPEAKER_00 (35:46):
That's an idea.
So so if you sat next assomebody other than James, you'd
be less interested in or drawnto talking to someone.
So that might help.

SPEAKER_01 (35:57):
Yeah, James is like one of my best friends.
So I like always I know that hewants to talk to me too, and I
know that he'll talk to me.
And if I just maybe sitting bysomeone else, like I would be
able to focus a little bitbetter and stay, even when math
gets hard, that I would be ableto like stay in that in that
mode.

SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
So that sounds like a great idea for this sort of
talking and distraction part.
And I guess I just am thinkingto myself, though, that if James
isn't there to talk to, butyou're still not sure how to
start with math and you'restuck, you may not end up
talking to James, but you'regonna end up feeling real bad
about yourself.
And we need to help you withthat part too.

SPEAKER_01 (36:32):
Yeah, I don't know.
And like here to break the roleplay real quick, like kids often
don't know, right?
Or like I've been in this roleplay, like very vulnerable and
open with you.
A lot of kids are like, I don'tknow.
Yeah, don't know.
Absolutely.
How do like if I had respondedlike less like here's my heart
and soul, like how how do you goabout, like, say if I I would if
I had just said like, I don'tknow, and kind of like about

(36:54):
ideas.

SPEAKER_00 (36:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (36:55):
So the first thing is that you can't do the idea
stage or the empathy, empathystage, right?
Like you kids can put walls upat any one of these.

SPEAKER_00 (37:01):
Absolutely.
And with good reason.
And it's usually either becausethey struggle with the skills
that you were displaying in thisrole play, language and
communication skills, emotionregulation skills, things like
this that helped you put yourconcern on the table.
But many students won't be ableto, right?
So what do you do in that case?
Well, you go back to the fourtools that I listed out in that
first ingredient.

(37:22):
Questions, which you respondedto really well, so it made my
job easy.
And I was able to just reflectback what I heard from you.
Another student may not be ableto, so I'm gonna have to use
some educated guessing, and I'mgonna put words in your mouth.
And to be honest, it would notbe a big leap for me to suggest
that maybe the math was hard,and that's why you were
struggling.
Now, the part about talking toJames or other kids that starts

(37:45):
as requests for help for math,but then goes on to other
things, I probably wouldn't havebeen able to guess that.
But I'd get started with someeducated guesses.
And if I saw the reason you wereshutting down or were saying, I
don't know, wasn't necessarilyyou didn't know, but you weren't
trusting this interaction justyet, I would use a lot of
reassurance.
I'd be saying, Don't worry, Iknow there's a good reason that

(38:06):
you're not just sitting down anddoing the math.
I I know if it was that easy,you would.
I I think you're really workinghard on this.
And I just want to try tounderstand.
So you're not in trouble at all.
I just want to try to help.
Maybe that would ease it up.
If not, we're gonna go with moreeducated guessing.

SPEAKER_01 (38:20):
And then when we get to just real quick with educated
guessing, sometimes it's like wedon't want to come in and like
overshare our opinion or how weso we want to be careful about
that.
But an educated guess is moresomething to you're like kind of
giving the student something toreact to.
Because if my educated guess isway off, it's way easier for
them to be like, no, that's notwhat it is, right?

(38:41):
And now we're taught, nowthey're talking, at least.
So it's like, even if you'retotally wrong, it still gets the
conversation going.

SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
I mean, with younger kids, I'll play a hot and cold
game, right?
Am I getting any warmer withthis or not?
And yeah, some kids I'll justask them just nod or shake their
head.
Yeah, it's sort of just pointsyou in a direction.

SPEAKER_01 (38:59):
I've seen Dr.
Green use like a one to five.
Like, I'm gonna ask you somequestions.
Like, you just give me like aone if it's I'm like way off a
five if yes.
So like you're taking thecognitive load of like
self-awareness and verbalexpression off of them so that
they can actually take a minute.
Also, kids don't know, like theythey don't like, they need time
to process your questions and tolike actually reflect.

(39:21):
And in adult conversation, thereis zero socially appropriate way
to be like, like, I'm gonna justsit here in silence for 30
seconds, right?
Like, we don't do that socially,so it's like, oh no, you don't
immediately have like a totallygood answer for this.

SPEAKER_00 (39:34):
Like And look, let's let's be clear if the kid knew
exactly what was the issue andwhat to do about it, this
problem wouldn't be happening inthe first place.
So it's not that this process ofcollaborative problem solving is
magic, where it's gonna goingredient one, ingredient two,
ingredient three, solution.
Yeah, no, it's gonna get stuckin the mud because this is hard
and you're gonna run into akid's skills deficits.

(39:57):
You're gonna run into your ownskills deficits as you go
through the process.
But I think it's also importantin that third ingredient where I
invited you in.
What if you had no ideaswhatsoever?
And and you know, I always tellpeople count to 30, give a kid,
which will sound like aneternity or seem like an
eternity, but count to 30.
And if the kid's got no ideas,then you can say tentatively,

(40:17):
would you mind if I if I couldcome up with an idea and we
could try them on for sizetogether?
Because ultimately, whether it'stheir idea, your idea, there's
still the litmus test of wouldthis work for you?
Would this work for my concerns?
Can we do it?
Is it realistic?
And your first idea, forinstance, was a really good one
for the talking issue, butdidn't address at all your

(40:38):
concern about Matt's really hardand you have a hard time getting
started.
So we still have work to do onthat solution.

SPEAKER_01 (40:44):
So in that, in that moment as the adult, you're kind
of like the an advocate for bothpeople's concerns, right?
Like you need to make sure thethe um the put forward solution
meets their needs and also meetsyour needs, and you can calmly
advocate for those needs.
Like, I love that idea.
Here's here's just like you did,like, here are the holes in that

(41:04):
idea.
Like, what about this?
And I think that the idea, andthat that helps kids build
critical thinking, right?
Like this is new for kids.
They don't have this skill.
They're showing us all the timethat they don't have this skill.
So you're scaffolding thatprocess of developing this
skill.
And that's why plan B is so muchmore powerful in the long run.
I think the word you used isdurable, right?
Because not only are we solvingthis problem, but we're

(41:25):
developing the skill of likebeing self-reflective and
wondering how our decisions canaffect the people around us and
things like that, which thoseare the metacognitive prefrontal
cortex skills that the kids whoare sitting quietly probably
already have, right?

SPEAKER_00 (41:40):
Yeah, you're developing the skills and the
relationship.
Because if you have otherproblems to solve, again, what's
one of the biggest predictors ofwhether you're going to be able
to solve that with a student?
The degree of helpingrelationship you have with them.
Those are your two biggestlevers, building relationship
and building skills.
And I think the cool thing aboutthis process of collaborative
problem solving is when you walkthrough it with a student all

(42:02):
the way to completion, even ifyou don't get to completion,
even if you don't get a goodsolution at the end of the day,
you are practicing with them.
You are modeling and scaffoldingthe practice of so many skills,
language and communicationskills, attention skills,
working memory, self-regulation,emotion regulation, cognitive
flexibility, social thinkingskills, all kinds of executive

(42:24):
functioning skills that you'repracticing naturally through
this problem solving process.
And I love, Katie, what you saidabout the adult really wants to
be an advocate for both sets ofconcerns.
Because I cannot tell you howoften when kids are invited to
solve a problem, they are soused to plan A that they think

(42:44):
this is a different creativeway, tricky way of doing plan A.
So when you ask them for asolution, they're trying to come
up with a solution thataddresses the adult concern even
more than their concern.
And so we not only need to be onthe lookout for, okay, is that
going to work for us, but weneed to be on the lookout for,
wait a second, I don't thinkthat's gonna work for part of
what you said.
And and you're an advocate forthat.

(43:05):
It's a beautiful way of saying.

SPEAKER_01 (43:07):
And you're really demonstrating and building trust
that you were listening to themduring the empathy step, right?
Which next time there's anunsolved problem and you want to
meet with them and chat withthem, they're gonna be like,
they're not gonna think, oh no,one of these conversations.
They're gonna be thinking like,great, help us here.
Like, we're going to, this isgonna make life better after you
kind of coach this.
I had an interesting experience.
I do this with my kids all thetime.

(43:28):
They're very used to like meinteracting with them in this
way.
And this is what we teach all ofour microschool guides to to do.
But last night, my five year oldwas like just throwing a fit
about something that was, in myopinion, was very silly.
And it was just like literally,it was like 10 o'clock, way past
her bedtime.
And I was so tired.
I did not have the regulationskills left in me to like go

(43:52):
into like a what's makingbedtime rough for you right now
kind of talk.
It was more like it lit, and weI don't do any, we have like
expectations, but we don't dolike rewards or punishments in
our home at all.
And so I literally said to her,my five-year-old seems so weird.
I'm like, Maggie, I don't saythis too often, but do you need
a consequence?
Like, that's where I was.
Like, do you need to like youneed to stop this?

(44:14):
And that's like was like hearingmyself try to do plan A.
And like all of my kids werekind of in the hallway and they
just like looked at me quietlyand they were like, mom's mom's
really tired if she's going todo need a consequence.
Um, but kids definitely can ifyou interact with them in this
way consistently, learn to trustthat you are.

(44:34):
I love this term that you keepusing, a helping relationship.
And I think uh Peter Gray, whowrote Free to Learn and is an
advocate of more agency andautonomy in in education, he
always says, be a helper, not ajudge.
And I think kids are so used toadults in their life as judges
that there is this initialmistrust of like, you're the

(44:58):
judge, you're not the helper,and you have to prove to them
again and again throughrelationship building that you
are a helper.

SPEAKER_00 (45:02):
And I mean, look at what you just said.
You know, you were you were sortof at the end of your rope at,
you know, 10 p.m.
last night, right?
And you were like, she'sMaggie's throwing a fit over
something that, in my opinion,is not a big deal, right?
Like at 10 p.m., you couldn'thelp but judge where, you know,
to her it was a big deal,evidently.
So yeah, you know, I and look,the I think the other thing

(45:23):
that's going on in this kind ofproblem solving is you are
building intrinsic motivationfor students, for kids.
Because, you know, we spend somuch time trying to
extrinsically motivate kids withrewards and consequences, but
the holy grail of motivation isinternal motivation.
Internal drive.

(45:43):
You know, as an educator, it'slike the most important thing if
you can spark internal drive ina student.
And you and I were talking aboutself-determination theory before
we started today.
Self-determination theory tellsus what promotes, what fosters
intrinsic drive.
And it's a sense of mastery,being good at things, skill,
right?
Autonomy, independence, andconnection, okay?

(46:07):
Relatedness.
And I think this is a processthat fosters all of that
mastery, autonomy, andconnectedness.
So it's sort of a recipe forbuilding internal drive.

SPEAKER_01 (46:16):
It absolutely does.
And that's the reason I'm sograteful for it is that it's not
easy to find models, effectivemodels, especially
well-researched models, ofanother way, right?
So it's like it's easy to comeup with a list of like, well,
you shouldn't say this to kidsand you shouldn't treat them the
way you shouldn't and you don't.
But it's like, hey, what are weleft with?
We just created a vacuum, right?
What do you do instead?
And then this is completelyaligned and I've just seen it

(46:38):
like time and time again.
And now my kids and other likekids in our microschools will be
like, hey, I'm noticing thatthere's a problem here during
this time of day.
And I've already generatedseveral solutions.
Can we discuss them?
And I'm like, yes, great,awesome.
Because that's how I would do itas an adult.
Like, hey, I'm noticing thatlike my husband and I are not
getting along about the dishes.
Like, I'm noticing this.

(46:59):
What's up?
You know, that is how we haveeffective relationships.
And I'm just so grateful for allof your work.
Just to wrap up here, we ask allof our guests this question: who
is someone who has helped kindleyour love of learning, your
curiosity, your passion helpedyou become who you are?

SPEAKER_00 (47:14):
Uh great question.
Uh sitting here feeling veryfortunate because a number of
people come to mind for me.
Probably the person that comesto mind the the most right now
is my grandfather, who passedaway a few years ago at uh the
age of 105, which is prettyamazing.
I was very close to him as a kidand had the opportunity to sort

(47:35):
of do a lot of things with himover time.
And he was one of these reallywise people who had all these
great grandfatherly sayings thatjust contained so much wisdom.
But most of all, he was anobserver of the world.
He he always told me to makesure you keep one foot in the
grandstand and one foot on theplaying field, which is in other

(47:56):
words, like be on the fieldenjoying playing, but also, you
know, keep a foot in thegrandstand, just sort of
observing and being mindful andand thinking, thinking and
feeling and experiencing at thesame time.
I learned a tremendous amountfrom him that I uh use, frankly,
on a daily basis in my work andin my life.

SPEAKER_01 (48:17):
I love that.
Thanks for sharing.
The whole point of the KindledPodcast is to help us become
grown-ups who can do that forthe next generation.
So that's why we ask that.
And last question, how canpeople find out more about your
work?

SPEAKER_00 (48:28):
Oh, great.
Yeah, so I have the privilege ofdirecting a program in the
Department of Psychiatry atMassachusetts General Hospital.
It's called Think Kids.
And sort of one-stop shoppingfor a ton of resources there is
to go to thinkkids.org.
That's the word think and thenthe word kids.org.
All kinds of information,training, community for uh
parents, for educators, forclinicians, all organized around

(48:52):
this work.
And, you know, there's alsoseveral books on the approach uh
that I've written or co-written.
And people can find, you know,any of resources of mine uh
there or on my own website,which is just my name, Stuart S
T U A-R-T-Ablon, A-B-L-O-N.com.
And there's also when you goright there, is a chance to take
a little quiz that uh can helpyou assess your own skills

(49:14):
across those five categories ofskill that I mentioned before,
or you can do it for a student,for your child, just to sort of
uh gain a little bit ofbeginning insight.
So I encourage people to gothere and check that out as
well.

SPEAKER_01 (49:27):
That's amazing.
Thank you so much for coming onthe Kindled Podcast.
I've learned so much and enjoyedour conversation immensely.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (49:34):
Well, again, thank you so much for having me.
I've enjoyed the conversation.
Uh, keep up your great work, andum, yeah, I'm thrilled to know
that our work is being shared inmany ways like this uh
throughout your microschools andand elsewhere.
So, really a privilege.
Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_01 (49:48):
The Kindled Podcast is brought to you by Prenda.
Prenda makes it easy to startand run an amazing microschool
based on all the ideas we talkabout here on the Kindled
Podcast.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media at Prenda Learn,
and if you'd like moreinformation about starting a
micro school, just go toPrenda.com.
Thanks for listening andremember to keep Kindling.

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