Season 2, Episode 3: "Calling" with Stephen G. Butler

Stephen G. Butler has served as a grant writer, community organizer, and is now an Assistant Dean at the Oklahoma City University School of Law. Most importantly, Stephen has been a great friend since our college days at Oklahoma State University.  Through his calling, Stephen has worked to create solutions to solve problems like access to healthcare, the subprime mortgage crisis, and has developed projects to address the challenges facing public schools. To Stephen, your calling isn’t limited to just one vocation. Join us as we talk to Stephen about what it means to be committed to your calling from season to season. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Okay, kinfolk folk.
How are you today, man?
I've got Steven G

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Look with me.
We're going to have aconversation around calling.
Let me let you know a little bitabout Stephen man.
Right now.
He is a fundraiser at theOklahoma city university law
school.
He's been there since 2016.
He supervises law school,fundraising, alumni engagement,
marketing events.

(00:38):
Uh, he was formally the directorof law associates at Pepperdine
university.
Uh, previously he was a grantwriter and organizer.
He was like a real life.
Barack Obama for the industrialareas foundation in Los Angeles
in Dallas, uh, where he workedwith partners, churches, and
other, um, organizations in thecommunity to create solutions to

(01:01):
the lack of healthcare options.
In South Los Angeles, he dealtwith the subprime mortgage
crisis and challenges facingpublic schools.
And as an organizer, he workedwith the leader of the
Massachusetts based algebraproject and Los Angeles unified
school district to create analgebra project cohort cohort at

(01:23):
the Crenshaw high school.
Man, we're going to talk about,uh, all of that, um, as we deal
with Colin, but first let meintroduce to you, uh, introduce
us, um, and, uh, reintroduced toother Steven G.
Butler.
Steven what's up, man.
Good to see you Patrick.
Long time, long time, long time,man.

(01:45):
Um, man, I, we want to set upthis conversation around the
idea of calling Genesis a oneand 28 from the Bible talks
about being fruitful.
Well he tells Adam, Hey man,listen, this is what I want you
to do.
I want you to be fruitful,multiply and fill the earth.
Well, most of us understandbeing fruitful.

(02:06):
Multiply.
If you got two kids, like mybrother, uh, does, and I was
about to let one go, if youmight have one on the way like
myself, I'm blessed.
Hopefully my wife does it editthis, but Hey man, I can't let
us to me right now.
Uh, I feel good about it.

(02:27):
I don't know what the sex is bythe way.
Um, but um, we can talk aboutthat too.
Uh, so, uh, we had so happyabout this vet.
I was like, okay so sorry.
So we know that it Genesis one28, um, be fruitful and
multiply, fill the earth.

(02:48):
We know that being fruitful,multiply beings, having kids,
but we always skip that nextlittle phrase, which is, and
feel the earth.
We know it can't mean have morebabies cause he just told you be
fruitful, multiply.
So that's gotta be about kids,but what's this field, the

(03:09):
earth.
And if you read the context andwe ain't got a bunch of time,
what he's essentially saying istake this raw material of the
garden.
Uh, cause Adam is, uh, is, uh,is a gardener.
He's a husband, uh, you know, inthe classical sense of the word
and in the modern sense of theword, take the raw materials of

(03:32):
this world.
And I want you to cultivate takethis garden and turn it into a
paradise, take this garden andfeel the earth, take this
garden, the raw materials of thegifts and skills and talents
I've given you and make akingdom out of it, Adam.
And so that mandate does it justgo for Adam?

(03:52):
It goes to all Adam'sdescendants through Jesus Christ
and so that we all have callingsand all have a divine gift
responsibility that God hasplaced in us.
And it's not just for the folkwho preach and teach on Sundays.
So we're with my brother and Iwant to examine his calling.

(04:15):
So, um, you know, be itaccounting or Archer, archery or
artistry, these are allimportant because so many people
think that you're just called towork in a church.
And that, um, the other thingsthat people do are just quote
unquote jobs.
And so I want to, uh, go to mybrother and asked him the first

(04:37):
question do you feel called andwhy?
Yes, I do feel called.
Um, it's not necessarilyvocation.
So, you know, I haven't workedwith Catholic parishes in my
organizing days.

(04:58):
You know, I am familiar withvocation and how we've taken
that into a job when it, when itreally means so much more.
But I do feel, uh, called inwhat I do because so much of
what I do is, uh, how God hasbuilt me right in that I am a

(05:19):
social person.
Uh, and fundraising allows me tobe social, allows me to be
strategic.
It allows me to do, uh, the workof helping people, right.
Um, you can have a great projector a great cause.
Um, but without the money, uh,if it falls by the wayside,

(05:42):
right?
Uh, and I'm forgetting the polyline about that in his beautiful
struggle album where he talksabout, you know, great, you know
, you got these greatnon-profits, but they have no
idea about how to raise money.
And so it's done for man.
You can have vision, but youneed provision behind.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
And that, that is

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Good one.
Right.
Um, so yes, first off I do feelcalled, uh, in what I do and I'm
thankful for it because of allthe things that I did before,
uh, law school, um, communityorganizing and, and meeting with

(06:24):
people and doing individualmeetings and learning about
their self-interest are thingsthat I use in, in this, you know
, season right now.
It's funny, as you were talkingabout calling, I was like, man,
part of me is feeling like, dowe take this a whole other
direction?

(06:45):
Because I'm just looking atlistening to what you're talking
about, how God tells us to, to,uh, be fruitful, uh, fill the
earth.
Um, but at that time, the, the,the context was the garden of
Eden and just how, um, mean Godbeing omniscient and existing

(07:13):
outside of time and space, youknow, speaking beyond what that
was existed.
Right.
And okay.
Be, you know, uh, be fruitful,multiply and fill the earth.
Right.
But, but God,

Speaker 3 (07:29):
We, we talking about this garden, I'm looking

Speaker 2 (07:30):
At this.
I can, I mean, we now

Speaker 3 (07:33):
Know how big the earth is

Speaker 2 (07:37):
And not withstanding God's ability.
So was he going to

Speaker 3 (07:40):
Expand the garden of Eden at the fall

Speaker 2 (07:43):
Didn't happen.
And so the gardening,

Speaker 3 (07:46):
It goes beyond Africa and it goes into your Asia and
Alaska and North and SouthKorea,

Speaker 2 (07:53):
Erica, or it's guys saying, yeah, it'd be fruitful,
multiply because y'all gonnamess this up.
Yeah.
And this command then speaks togo forth and make disciples,
which y'all are going to get ina few millennia later.
Right.
You know what I mean?
You see, it just, it builds outitself and it's like, wait, he,

(08:15):
he's not that that commandhasn't stopped happening.
And it doesn't, and it's evenextra Christian, uh, regardless
of Christianity, whether youbelieve in Jesus or not, right.
Every time somebody has a child,every time a scientist comes up
with a new development, everytime a new organization is born

(08:38):
and it's thriving, literallyechoing doing, you know, the
fruitful, multiply and feeling,right.
The only difference is, are yougoing to give them the credit or
not?
But we all do it.
Yeah, no.
I mean, so it was funny.
And then we will go whereveryou, I mean, cause you've got a

(08:58):
vision in the, in the podcastand you're curating and you're,
there are things that you're,that you're seeking to, to lift
up and, and there's a trajectoryfor, but as you were saying,
this, I'm like, man, that's awhole other word right there.
Just the omniscience of God andjust how the pro funder the, of
his wisdom, right.

(09:19):
Like go multiply and fill theearth.
But all you know of earth is thegarden of Eden.
Right.
And you know, in a few years,right, you gonna have these kids
, uh, or not even a few years,like we don't know how long, how
long that period of time wasbetween this command in the
fall.

(09:40):
Right.
And dah, dah, dah, all thesethings that come afterwards.
But right now let's go ahead andfill the earth and I'm gonna
give you some more later onceyou can handle that.
Right.
And that's, that seems to speakto you in a certain way.
I mean, what, what, what are youfeeling when you hear that?

(10:00):
Um, I just, I, uh, I've beenthankful.
I've been fortunate and I'mthankful for what God has given
me because yes, I come out ofthe Christian tradition and the
Baptist tradition.
Right.
But I've worked with Catholics,I've worked with other
Protestant denominations.
I've worked with, with, um, with, uh, people, the, of Judaism

(10:26):
and the Abrahamic faith.
Um, my father-in-law and hiswife are, uh, Muslim.
And so I've, I've, I've have allthese things around me.
Right.
Your grandfather was a preachertoo, right?
No SU no, my grandfather wasn't.
Um, my, I have one grandfather,my mother's father who was a

(10:49):
deacon.
And then my father's father, uh,was definitely not a preacher,
but was a man who, um, made somechanges in his life later on.
Um, just you talk about mystubbornness, my son's
stubbornness, uh, my grandfatheron my father's side, who was the

(11:11):
one I was really close to, uh,had cancer, fought cancer a
couple of times and, uh, was asmoker and dropped cold Turkey
back in like 1988 or so, becausehe said he wanted to see me and
my sister grow up to be adults,just, I want to see them live.
Right.
So I'm gonna stop smoking thatain't typically the type of

(11:32):
thing that people just be like,yeah, I'm going to get rid of
these cools or theseCharleston's or whatever it was
back in the day.
Cause I remember going to thestore, walking to the store with
him and Tyler attaches to gettheir cigarette T and my
grandmother.
And he said, you know, the guyget this cancer.
I want to live and, and coldTurkey.
So definitely a man who believedin God and, um, and, and, and

(11:54):
was faithful but not approved.
Uh, uh, cause I want to get intomore into your background and
trying to understand, you know,why you, you know, the different
avenues you went, what was it?
Um, what did you, when, when youfirst, uh, thought about what
you wanted to do with your lifeway back in, you know,

(12:19):
elementary school doing yourhigh, whenever that happened for
you, what did you want to do?
I wanted to be a stockbrokerbecause my father threw that out
there.
So I have the multipleinfluences in my life.
My father and my mother are thebiggest ones parents divorced in
1989, but I remember being, uh,mid eighties.

(12:45):
Um, my father mentioned himbeing a stockbroker.
And so, uh, that was somethingthat stayed with me.
And, uh, you know, later on,it's funny, I want it to be a
standup comedian and I used towatch the Def jam when I
probably shouldn't have beenshouldn't have been like, so
from the very first season withMartin and you know, him blowing

(13:08):
up while he was doing Def comedyjam and having this television
show, uh, I remember watchingSinbad's, uh, brain damage and
son of a preacher, man.
I just loved comedy.
Right.
So these various iterations.
Right.
But graduating high school.
Um, did you ever, before you go,did you ever do stand up?

(13:29):
Did you ever?
No.
No, but every once in a whileI'll think like, man, if I had
to put together a little set,what would I go with?
You know, what I want to jokeon?
Did you ever try set?
No.
No, I haven't.
What was funny is, uh, ourmutual friend, Tim and I talk
about that sometimes.
Right.
And then I listened to thesepodcasts.

(13:50):
Matter of fact, when I wasdriving into Euston yesterday,
um, I was listening to a MarkMirren interview, Eddie Murphy.
Right.
So, uh, I still love, lovecomedians and just, uh, I guess
to some extent I'm still astudent of comedy.
Right.
So, uh, I think we all enjoylaughing.

(14:11):
Right?
So even in my engagement intalking with folks, uh, in
raising money, right.
Um, you know, people give tocauses, they give to vision and
they give to people.
Right.
And uh, if I can give you a goodfeeling about what you're giving

(14:32):
money to, right.
Um, that's worthwhile, that'suseful.
So, uh, thought about that for awhile.
Never acted on it, uh, got to OU M uh, decided to, to, uh, get
a finance degree.
And which is what I eventuallydid.

(14:53):
I'm one of those people whonever changed his major though,
we know, especially with you andyour friends in engineering, the
people who started out in NASBEand then like now, whatever it
is, whatever, um, right.
Just because Thermo or P chem ororganic was hot, whatever it

(15:19):
was.
So the finance was thatconnected to stockbroking or
yeah.
Yeah.
Um, my, my dad, I remember himgiving a book, giving me a book,
which I'm sure somewhere, eitherin my house, my mom's house or,
uh, in a storage unit onfinance.
And, uh, I just never changed mydegree.

(15:39):
You know, a couple of years in,I knew I was going to law school
cause I had a bunch of friendswho were interested in politics
and we did student governmentand, uh, I looked around and
this is the era of Clinton.
And, um, course, you know,Clinton was a lawyer, a lot of
senators and house members werelawyers.

(16:00):
And then of course the, thejudiciary, a lawyer.
So I thought that's where youwant to create change and to
have power right.
Going to law school wasworthwhile, but I just
maintained and got my, uh,finance degree though.
I wish I had gotten more out ofit.
I kind of tuned out after mysophomore year into my junior

(16:21):
year, uh, was much more focusedon extra curricular and, and um,
student organizations.
But no, I can still Lee's knowthat there's a cap M theory and,
and various economic theories,uh, though I, so, uh, they don't
have a huge amount of relevanceto my, my current life.

(16:44):
Interesting.
Because you know, when youtalked about stockbroking and
finding, I was thinking aboutthe fact that you're from Tulsa
and black wall street.
I don't know why that popped upin my mind.
No, it's crazy.
Uh, being from Tulsa, um, and ofcourse Tulsa is getting a lot

(17:04):
more, uh, visibility now, thanksto watch men and this being the
hundredth anniversary in a fewmonths, but you know, the amount
of people who left Halsa, um,that have, that are just
changing the world are doingamazing things out in the world.

(17:27):
Uh, but have roots back in Tulsais crazy, right?
Like John Rogers in Chicago whoruns Ariel investments, Mellody
Hobson CEO, and, you know,married to George Lucas, but
right.
But he, his roots go back toTulsa and his great grandfather
leaving grandfather,great-grandfather leaving as a

(17:49):
result of 1921 and the massacre.
So it's funny.
Dad just wanted me, uh, comingfrom East Texas of limited means
, uh, he was an engineer.
He was a civil who quickly, um,moved into management because he
saw that's where, uh, there wasmoney to be made, not

(18:11):
necessarily in the engineering,but in the management of
engineers, um, later went on toget his MBA.
Um, he figured that would be away that I could have financial
means and financialindependence.
And so I listened to him and,uh, that was my major.

(18:31):
And then, uh, you went to lawschool there, the university of
Oklahoma, uh, automatic.
How was that?
I was good, man.
How did that shift yourperspective about, uh, what you
felt like you would call to doman?
Oh, you was phenomenal from therelationships in the peep.

(18:53):
Right.
And a couple of the professors,I still keep in contact with,
um, a mentor of mine.
Uh, Dr.
[inaudible] was, um, incredible,still prays over my life and my
family and I pray for her.
Um, Jay Tony is one of myclosest friends.

(19:15):
It's funny.
We went to high school together,went to college together, but it
was because we were law schoolclassmates that we really became
close and a number of others,but OU was, was incredible
because he gave me an, aknowledge of the law, um, and a
foundation.
Uh, I wasn't sure what I wantedto do.

(19:36):
I thought I wanted to make moneyand help people.
Those were my two goals.
Right.
So then I had no, not alwayshand in hand and not always hand
in hand, but I was like, youknow, uh, Willie, Gary, Johnnie
Cochran being cropped right here.
I didn't know how it was themale, but there was a way to
make money.
I didn't need Willie Gary's jet,but like, if there was a way I

(19:58):
could make money and helppeople, that's what I wanted to
do.
Uh, and then came out and, uh, Ididn't go to the firm that I had
clerked at, um, just because Ididn't want to be in Tulsa and
make that money.
So I came down to Houston, um,to live with mom and figure it

(20:19):
out where, where, you know,where I'm actually the same
place where I'm taping this now,uh, out in Katy and, uh, had
taking the Oklahoma bar to theTexas bar.
And, um, ultimately decided thatI didn't want to practice law
because I got involved withcommunity organizing through my

(20:39):
church with, I, uh, found theindustrial areas, man, let's
slow down real quick.
What you, okay, so your home,uh, and I remember this time
because you know, that, that wasthe time we were all hanging and
we were all in the same circles.
It was good for man.
It was great fun.

(21:00):
One of the funniest times.
Yeah.
It was just, it was crazy.
You know, it's like you all, youthink, man, once you leave
college, you're never gonna seebe in the same place with most
of these people.
But Houston offered theopportunity for us as young men
Campbell.
It was here.

(21:20):
Tim came in from, from Kansascity and Matt Courtney.
Um, Steven was a, I mean, goodhope was just a launching pad.
We were getting that good wordfrom pastor Coalfield.
And then he had like, uh, passeda cow home, coming off the bench
had Clemons coming off the bench.
I mean, it was that's crazy,bro.

(21:41):
And when, you know, a lot oftimes when we say a bunch of
talent, I think it was more thanthat.
It was like, it was community,right?
Yes.
That happened to be talented andextraordinary guys going off to
do some, some amazing things,but, and people who education or
not.
Right.
Cause you had Mack and Jamilincredibly high educated.

(22:05):
Right.
But then it'd be somebody whojust like grew up in Houston
and, and just wanted to like getdown and, and spread the gospel.
Right?
Yeah.
It was, it was just cool.
There was no like, you know, youknow, as, as you know, being 41,
now that's hard to do to, tobring what we, you know, forget

(22:30):
outside of race.
I think the class thing is hardto bring together.
It's like people eat, you know,we always couch it in.
Well, I really liked to docertain things and they don't
like to do the things I do.
And it's just like, right guys,we all kind of like going in the
same direction.
You know, you try to recapturewhat you, what you've seen and

(22:53):
what you heard and what youknow, could be possible because
you lived it.
Well, think about what we had atODU.
And I, again, I don't mean manyof us who talk about what the
nineties meant at you, right?
Yeah.
But you had the changing of theacademic standards from the 22

(23:19):
to like a 26 or something.
Right?
Like in the midst of that, youhad people that were coming
from, you know, Oakland comingfrom Tulsa, North Tulsa, reseals
, Northeast, Oklahoma city,Morris park, Oklahoma city,
right.
Um, Richardson.

(23:41):
It was Missouri city.
It was, it was the tray, it waswar acres.
It was all that coming to, Oh,you at the same time, little
rock, North little rock,whatever suburb.
And it was a lot of people whohad education and had scores or

(24:01):
right.
May not have had scores underthis new regime under these new
standards, but just all comingtogether to have a good time.
And some of us graduate, most ofus graduated, whether it took us
some time or not some of usdidn't, but it was just good,
fun.
Right.
In what you're describing, likewhat we had in Houston was a lot

(24:24):
of folks under that same type of, uh, situation, but who were
like, you know, wanting to gettogether, find a spouse, hang.
Um, but, uh, education or notjust like was Jesus like brought

(24:46):
a lot of us together, you know,you know it, man, it's crazy.
I reminiscent on all of this.
So, you know, back to the, tothe question, what, in that time
made you shift from looking forthe, the law firm job to I'm

(25:07):
fitting to be the Barack Obama,because literally bro, by the
time you were doing your thing,Barack was doing his, I don't
know if he's ever saw theparallels and similarities.
I always, so a guy namedLawrence tolerber who was my
barber in Los Angeles.
Right.
Who is the man?

(25:29):
Uh, Mr.
Tall over had bill Bratton comethrough his shop, had Charlie
back.
Like it was a right.
It's like a Rite of passage, uh,for you, if you're a political
or official in Los Angeles, Mr.
Todd lover, uh, is somebody youcome to see.

(25:51):
And, um, I met him during myorganizing days, the end of my
organizing days in Los Angeles.
And you know, you're Barbara,you talk and whatnot.
And he was like, Oh, you Obamayou a young Obama.
Right.
Cause this is 2009.
So this is after the election.
And so that's just what, what hedoes.
And I was like, Mr.

(26:12):
Tolerant, no.
So president Obama went toorganizing then went to law
school.
Right.
I went to law school then gotinto community organizing and I
have no desire to go intoelectoral politics.
That's just not what I, what Iwant to do, but that didn't stop
Mr.
Tall.

(26:32):
Right.
So I mean, it just was what itwas, but no, I, um, I loved
politics from an early age man,so right.
Um, I'm this 10 who also be astockbroker, who's reading the
newspaper.
Right.
Uh, in the morning, like eatingbreakfast.

(26:52):
Cause my parents subscribed tothe paper.
I still subscribed to it.
I subscribed to it online.
Um, and that's the challenge,right?
I'm gonna just let you know, howdo you get your kids to love to
read when you read on yourphone?
Right.
So they think you're neglectingthem, but

Speaker 3 (27:09):
No I'm reading the Washington post I'm reading.
Right.
I'm reading it all month.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
I'm just, you know, so same thing just on, on uh,
Instagram.
No, I'm, I'm reading my Bible.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
No, I was on Instagram, you know, 15 minutes
ago.
But right now I'm trying tofigure out, you know, if we're
going to get any of the stimulusmoney or not.
Right.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, uh, no, it, it, I was thekid who loved reading.
Right.
So I was paying attention to theIRA, you know, uh, clashes with,
you know, in the eighties.
And that just, I just lovedpolitics, man.

(27:58):
Uh, in what organizing?
Um, no of no offense to lawschool or any of the other
education that I received.
Right.
I received some of the besteducation that you can get like
my high school.
Right.
I'll put up against any highschool in the country,

(28:20):
particularly when we were therebecause we were the first high
school in the state to have theeight to have the IB program.
We also had a, B uh, AP, andthen at the same time, right.
I've got super bowl champions,uh, and you know, NBA champions
or whatever coming out of myhigh school.

(28:40):
Right.
Um, you could go and for the IBdiploma or you could be shooting
dice.
Right.
You know, whoever, right.
It was, it was a worldlyexperience.
So no one of my good friends Ikeep in contact with is the

(29:02):
grandson of a us Senator.
Right.
Who's quadruple Stanford.
I used to say he was tripleStanford.
He's like, no, no, no, I'mactually quadrupled me.
Not, you know what I mean?
You just joking with me.
Right.
So I got the chance to meetincredible people, um, and, and
have this amazing, uh,experience in organizing it will

(29:23):
.
I was going to say

Speaker 3 (29:24):
In, in high school [inaudible],

Speaker 2 (29:27):
But my organizing experience taught me how the
world works.
Uh, and that, that isincredible.
I will always credit the I a Fuh, being able to work in Dallas
and then, you know, um, Southcentral, um, with just teaching

(29:47):
me things that I would not havelearned.
Otherwise I still take with meto this day, when you say, um,
teach a organizing, taught youhow the world works, what do you
mean by that?
Right.
So, um, in, I F organizing, wetalk about the world as it is

(30:08):
versus the world as it shouldbe.
Right?
So I'm in South central or SouthLA, right.
Seeing the greatest, um,decimation right.
Of black wealth that hopefullywe will ever see in our time in

(30:30):
2000, uh, seven, eight, nine,10, right.
As people who came fromMississippi, um, Georgia,
Alabama, Arkansas, Oklahoma,like my family in the 1940, 50,
60 seventies who, um, boughtinto the American dream or this

(30:54):
idea of the American dream andare living in, uh, South LA or
Inglewood or Hawthorne orCompton, um, Linwood wherever,
and are losing their home.
Right.
Because of, uh, the subprimemortgage prices and the bad

(31:16):
loans that ESA signed up for.
Um, but there were factors that,um, the deck was stacked against
, uh, right.
Um, at the time, you know, 1970wages has essentially stagnated
from like for a 30 year periodfrom the, from the late
seventies, but in, um, you know,Southern California real estate

(31:40):
was a sure bet.
And so if your, you know, 40, 50years old, um, and you got aging
parents and you need to takecare of them, but you've also
got, you know, these kids whoare trying to go to college and
you need money for that.
Um, or you need to pay privateschool tuition because you don't

(32:03):
feel that the school district isthe best bet for your kids.
Um, where are you going to getthe money from that?
And a lot of people took it outof their home, right?
So you would think that, uh, ourgovernment are, um, uh, it's in

(32:26):
the public's interest to helppeople stay in their loans.
So we actually put forward aplan that we brought to the
California housing financeagency and others that said, you
know what?
You can go and have thegovernment taken interest in
these people's homes.
Right.
And once the property, uh, rebounces back, right.

(32:50):
And they gain the equity backbecause these people don't want
to move.
They're not flippers.
They just want to be able tostay in their homes and know
that they're not going to getforeclosed on.
Let's go ahead, allow thesepeople to stay in their homes.
And then right, whenever the,the house appreciates and it
ever is sold in 10, 15, 20years, we can go and, um, like

(33:13):
sharing the equity of that.
Right.
Um, but let's help out thesehomeowners and government said,
nah, we're not trying to dothat.
We're going to give the money tothese banks.
Um, we're going to put themthrough these stress tests and
yada yada yada.
And so the homeowners, thepeople who needed the help the

(33:34):
most didn't get it.
Right.
Uh, that was a lesson in howpower works, how money works,
how this country works, thatyou're not going to get, uh, in
law school.
Right.
Um, and so we worked on that.
We also worked on, like yousaid, the algebra project, what

(33:57):
is that?
So the algebra project is, isbrilliant, uh, at its core.
It is the idea, uh, the initialconcept came from Bob Moses who,
uh, one of my personal heroeswas organizing in the
Mississippi Delta with FannieLou Hamer, um, uh, Ella Baker

(34:19):
and others who, you know, wetalk about Dr.
King and what he did for thecivil rights movement and it,
and he did great things, but itwas, there were local generals
on the ground, you know,generals, lieutenants that were
doing that hard work, the hardand slow and patient work of
organizing to bring votingrights.

(34:41):
And, uh, and, uh, he was one ofthem, right.
Uh, Bob went down there and lefthis studies in New York and
organized, and in Mississippi,um, later, uh, went to Africa
and spent some time and, um,came back to the States and came

(35:04):
up with something called thealgebra project, which is an
experiential learning model thathelps students who are behind
and in grasping math conceptsand teaches them how to, to, uh,
learn energies and math andalgebra, um, based upon their
lived experience.

(35:24):
Right?
So when we did this withCrenshaw, we created a number
line by going and takingstudents down to, I don't know
if in LA, if it's centralstation, union station, whatever
, uh, and just took a ride ontheir red line and marked out
the different stops.
And then when we went back toclass later, we, we mapped it

(35:47):
out based upon those stops sothat they didn't understand X, Y
coordinates on a theoreticalterms.
It was something that they haddone in living it out, right.
Because, um, every kid,everybody has the ability to
learn the question is, are wewilling to take it to, to where

(36:11):
their, their level ofunderstanding, right.
A good friend of mine, uh,Anthony Madox, uh, is a
professor, just one of thesmartest people I know, know
studied artificial intelligenceright now, his job at USC and
the Rossier school is teachingteachers how to teach.
But he pointed out to me, youknow, we're in the 21st century

(36:35):
using a 19th century educationmodel.
We know every kid doesn't learnthe exact same way.
The problem is, um, ourunwillingness to invest in other
education models that fit kidsand meet them where they are.
Right.
And he told me this like 10, 12years ago, right.

(36:55):
That we're in the 21st centuryusing, uh, a 19th century, uh,
education model.
What's crazy about what yousaid.
And, and that I, um, justpicking up, they basically were
trying to, we teach inabstractions and theory and, and
, and conceptual ideas, which,and it's funny, we measure

(37:19):
intelligence on that too, butI'm like, what do you mean?
We don't teach babies.
Babies.
Don't learn that people don'tactually learn and ideas,
concepts, and extractions.
They learn in country realities.
A baby knows that that notbecause they understand the
representation of work, butbecause she, she or he is looked

(37:41):
at you, you know, your kidslooked at, you heard somebody
say some sounds and then attachthe sound to the concrete
reality of daddy.
Right.
And that's how they learn, man.
That's crazy that we still havethis, this system that only
works for a few and not foreveryone, let, let's take it
even further.
Right.
We say, God is love you.

(38:02):
Don't just sit that on aChristian and be like, all right
, now, go run with that.
Right.
You say, okay, now, how did yourparents love you?
Right.
God teaches us through.
He, we call him father becausethat's something we can grasp
our mind around.
How does a father and a mother,how do your parents, you know,
love you.

(38:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that's not what we do in oureducational system.
No, no, no, no.
And then, and then we hold itagainst those who don't, who
don't grasp, man.
And it's crazy.
And so this project was, uh, Imean, how did w how, how does
organizing tie into thisproject?
So the project is phenomenal,but if you don't have people in

(38:48):
the district who are willing tochampion it, um, like many
programs, it has a limited shelflife or limited ability to get
off his feet.
So we were hired or contractedto, uh, be the organized, to do
the organizing work, to allowit, to gain its foothold in the
district.
And so I was, uh, assigned toCrenshaw high school, to work

(39:13):
with the teachers, uh, and, andfamilies there as well as to
help do some of the politicalwork at Beaudry to make sure
that, uh, LA USD allow the, thesystem to grow and to thrive,
man, I th that's for now.

(39:33):
So, you know, you, you hit onsomething half, the great ideas
that we have, and we come upwith, I'm just kinda tying the
fact that the idea is one thing,but the execution and the
buy-in, well, no, the buy-in asis needed to execute the,

(39:56):
execute, those ideas.
Most of us don't have theability to get the buy-in.
We got the program, we know howto execute it.
Maybe we saw it somewhere else.
And so organizing as a principle, as a reality is something that
man, you know, so, so, so let'stie this back.

(40:17):
Um, Oh, let's talk about blacklives matter movement.
Okay.
Let's let's just talk aboutthis.
Okay.
Uh, we got the ideas there's.
I mean, I can go to the websitethere's platforms.
So some people will say, it'sgood.
These ideas are good.
These ideas are bad, but I'mjust saying, yeah, these are

(40:38):
ideas.
Do you think that organizationslike that and many others have
the ability to take those ideas,get, buy in and get people to
execute potentially.
Yes, but here's the deal.
Are we talking black livesmatter?

(40:58):
Black lives matter movement?
Are we talking black livesmatter?
The organization, two totallydifferent things, right?
Yeah.
Go to the website.
That's the black lives matterorganization.
Black lives matter movement is Ithink much larger than the
organization.
Uh, and so any of us can be likea member of that, right.

(41:23):
Because we believe if youbelieve that black lives matter,
right.
You're part of the black livesmatter movement.
Now there's the actualorganization that has chapters
and has its own.
Um, has it, um, no, I guessmission and whatnot that are,
that are somewhat intertwined.
Right.

(41:44):
And they came from the sameplace, but there are two
different things, right?
Yeah.
So what would you, if someone'scalled you Stephen, the
organizer, when Stephen wasorganized on now and said, Hey,
can you help us?
Somebody from BLM said, Hey, canyou help us?

(42:06):
What would be the first coupleof things you would say to them?
Well, let's sit down and talk,right?
Because, so for the industrialareas foundation and its
affiliates, right.
Our organizations, whether it'sTMO in Houston or Dallas area,
interfaith in Dallas or one LAin Los Angeles or voice in

(42:26):
Oklahoma city, which, um, youknow, my PTA is a member of,
right.
Our goal is to build power andmany of us, right.
Myself included shirt, somewhatfrom the idea of, I want power.
Right.
But that the word power, like inSpanish or there, right.

(42:53):
It just simply means to be ableto, I can, I can act, right.
So why would you not want power?
Right.
You think about the, the, the,someone who completely lacks
power, that's an infant.
They, they can't, they can't doanything for themselves.

(43:13):
They, they literally, as youwill learn soon enough, right?
The only thing you don't have toteach a child to do is cry in
urinate.
They don't have the ability topoop.
They don't have the ability toeat.
They don't have the ability tosleep.
Right.

(43:33):
Who wants to be in that state.
Right.
We want to be able to have powerand to be able to act.
And so what I have organizationsare looking for is the ability
to build power and you get powerin our minds from one or two
forms, organize people andorganize money.
And most of us don't have a lotof money, but we do have the

(43:56):
ability through our networks andour relationships to organize a
ton of people.
And so that's, so if BLM were tocome to me and say a, uh, light
to join or work with you, um,well, let's have a conversation
because these are the things,this is what organizing looks

(44:17):
like for us.
These are our goals.
We focus on the things thatunite us, right?
Quality schools, um, uh, goodjobs, paying jobs that, you
know, support, uh, qualityinfrastructure, right?
Um, safe neighborhoods, um, youknow, uh, the ability to not get

(44:41):
shot in the street by police,you know, so I think there is,
there, there might be somethings we can come together on
and work around right now we candiscuss tactics and all that,
that can come later.
But are these things that areinteresting to you?
Um, are you willing to do thework to find other people within
your organization that wants todo this?

(45:04):
Because as opposed to the ideaof the charismatic leader
organizing is about peoplerecognizing their own agency and
being able to, um, uh, have somesay in their lives and, and to,
you know, to work, to createchange with other people, um, in

(45:28):
our minds, organizing iscritical to the democratic
traditions because it's, youknow, Patrick and Stephen coming
together and saying, you knowwhat, we don't fully agree on
all of this, but I'm willing towork with you around the safe
drinking water.
If you're willing to work withme on getting some speed, uh,

(45:48):
some road humps to make surethat people don't come flying up
and down our street.
Right.
And through that, you buildpower and you build, um, you
build, um, common cause andpeople working to come together
and to have civil discourse, tohave a common conversation, man,
uh, w we're going to have moreof this conversation offline.

(46:12):
Cause I, I, there's somethingabout this that I feel like, I
feel like, whatever, right nowwe need more, we, the country
needs more organization.
Yeah.
Totally agree.
You know, and you know, and theprocess of organizing would

(46:33):
probably bring some peopletogether.
Yeah, totally agree.
The, the challenge is, um, youknow, particularly in, I won't
say, yeah, I'll say this, what,what I found the challenge to be
in my organizing, um, as anAfrican-American, uh, in so many

(46:54):
churches, right?
Pastors not being willing to onehave allow their leaders like
their lay leaders to have a rolein this work, because, and
again, I come from the Baptisttradition right.
Where you really got a fiefdomthat you can be squeezed to your

(47:15):
child regardless of what theireducational credentials or
whatever, but let's go back toCollin, whatever their calling
may be.
Right.
It's not the ecclesiasticalsystem where the Bishop moves,
whoever, which, you know, hasits own challenges.
Right.
But it's like, Oh yeah, pass thedata to the senior, leaves it to
pass it to the junior right.

(47:37):
In there it is.
And so having other voices cometo the table and say, um, yes,
pastor, this is what we want todo.
And we want the church to investsome dollars.
And us being part of thisorganization where, you know, we
work with other congregationsand other institutions in our

(47:58):
city and in our community tocreate change, unfortunately,
that does, that does not happenas much right.
In the African-American church,but it needs to right.
Because really it hearkens backto that civil rights tradition
that, that we, uh, no of SCLCand Snick and right.

(48:23):
Uh, yeah.
We know John Lewis and we knowDiane Nash and, and Bernard
Lafayette and James bevel andMary and burying.
But there were a number ofleaders that are unsung, right.
That were at, at going to theHighlander school and we're
learning, uh, these traditionsand we're just doing their part.

(48:45):
Right.
And they were all leaders intheir own way, but we S we've
reduced it to Malcolm and, ornot Malcolm Martin and his, his
cabinet when that, and we do itin injustice.
Right.
Yeah.
Well, I, I think that's a lackof, you know, these are easy

(49:06):
categorizations that allowpeople well, allow people who we
don't want to be curious to beable to say, ah, I know about
the civil rights school.
Yeah, man.
It's crazy.
I recommend to anybody who has achance read David Halberstam's
the children, it isn't credible.

(49:28):
Right.
Okay.
I'm going to take, I'm going toread it as well.
I'm going to do some littlelight real quick and then we'll
get back to it.
Uh, just what you hear answer.
All right.
All right.
Scale of one to 10.
How good are you at keepingsecrets?

(49:50):
Um, maybe a five.
Okay.
Ariel or Jasmine?
Um, area.
Okay.
First celebrity crush.
Brandy, maybe Brandy.
Norwood.
Yes.
Okay.
All right.

(50:11):
Down the street from them inCarson, but neither here nor
there.
My family is, my family is huge.
Like, I didn't know it at thetime, but I, yeah.
I've heard I've got Ray Jaystories.
Right.
So, okay.
Okay.
So y'all beat y'all might bekicking y'all are close.
Not though.
Okay.
Donna dusk, Don.

(50:31):
Okay.
Why Don?
Uh, when we were online, uh, itgave me an appreciation for
getting up early man.
And I liked being ahead of theday.
It's one of the things I hatedabout being on the West coast
because you're two to threehours behind the action.
And so I believe it's veryimportant to have a plan and

(50:55):
have an idea of what you want todo for the day, because the day
is going to hit you in the face.
Regardless, you gotta be readyfor it.
It's the, if you could travelback in time, which period would
you go to?
Um, probably the, either thetime we were talking about or,
uh, just, Ooh, man.
It was, I mean, I, I, I see justthe way my mind works.

(51:20):
Right.
So you've got a responsibilityand, um, you've got, uh, not, I
don't want to sayaccountability, but it's, it's,
it's, um, your access right?
To, to, to, I mean, in like 18,19, 20, 21 is like that period

(51:48):
where you've got the ability todo a lot of stuff, but not be
necessarily hold accountable andhave those mistakes follow you,
right.
The rest of your life.
Uh, and so you get to do a lotof things.
While at the same time, youain't paying a whole bunch of
bills, right?
You might, depending on whatyour parents are doing, you may

(52:11):
make you put car, no gas in yourcar, car insurance, all right.
But you know, most of us aren'tresponsible for paying your rent
and putting all the food on ourtable and like 18, 19, or you
just take, you're taking it outof your, your student loan
money.
Right.
So, which, you know, at our peer, we were fortunate enough.

(52:32):
Maybe you can refinance that attwo point, whatever percent, the
idea of unsecured credit at thatlow of a percentage.
You're not getting that right.
You know, at any other point inlife.
And you're not definitely notgetting that at today's rates.
So it was a, it was a, it was agood time.

(52:53):
It was a good time.
Like if we could have gone andno, you know, let me take the
student loan money, put this inGoogle, it's going to become
alphabet.
You know what I mean?
Just man, w with hindsight,there's so much we would have
done differently.
Um, and I remember wanting toinvest in Google at the time,

(53:13):
but reading some, some articlethat was like, that's dumb.
Don't do it, man.
I think sometimes man, thosearticles, or it's just right to
write.
If you feel something, do it, atleast you can say I made the
mistake.
Right.
All right.
Well, again, man, like we were,I don't know what type of

(53:33):
scholarship you had at, um, alaw school, but you know, I had
a good scholarship in law schoolalso too.
Some loan money out for livingexpenses and, you know, say you
just live on ramen and don'tknow by whatever or, or, you
know, eat good.
I mean like exactly the arm.

(53:55):
I mean, being able to refinanceyour student loans, I think 2.7,
5%.
Right.
We just didn't know unsecuredcredit.
Doesn't come at that low of aninterest rate.
The stuff that we could havedone with that.
My money isn't that cheap.

(54:16):
No.
Yeah.
Okay.
Do you snore?
I do have terrible sleep apnea.
Um, my wife has been on me.
I need to go and get the, um,get the test it so I can get a,
C-PAP see that my dad has one.
My, I think my grandparentssnored, I, I, I feel bad for my
parents or from my kids andwhat's coming down the pipe.

(54:38):
Yeah.
I probably need to do the samething bro.
Place.
You most want to travel?
Uh, right now I've got, uh, afriend who runs our kids
preschool and she does aprogram.
She spends her time, you know,nine COVID, uh, in Savannah.

(55:01):
And she's actually friends withthe people who own the gray, uh,
which is a restaurant inSavannah, this guidance some pub
recently.
So Savannah has kind of been onmy mind.
Um, my wife's family, herfather's side goes back to
Charleston, so okay.
Savannah, Georgia Charleston.
South Carolina.
Yeah.
Charleston, South Carolina.
But just getting back and seeingfriends and family in LA.

(55:24):
No.
Okay.
Favorite junk food trader Joe'shas these chocolate, uh, coconut
almonds that are like cinnamon.
Okay.
Okay.
I will try those out.
They remind you, uh, they remindyou of the world's finest
chocolate, uh, almonds, that,that whoever was slaying.

(55:44):
Right.
But yeah, they're good, bro.
What were you gonna say?
No, no, no.
I'll say that my wife probablyright now would definitely
appreciate that.
So I'm going to go to traderJoe's and get a small gift.
She probably hear thisafterwards, but two of them bro,
two of them so I can have one.
Yeah, no, just so you might geta few because if she's pregnant

(56:05):
and she wants some, you're goingto give them up.
Right.
Like just take a handful and belike baby, these yours.
Okay.
All right.
Let me, in fact that we'll dothat today.
Um, favorite childhood TV show?
Uh, man.
So hard to say.
Um, I I've, I've got some greataffinity over the Cosby show and

(56:26):
I was standing.
It means now, but, uh, it wasincredible.
Um, also love the GI Joecartoons, man.
Okay.
All right.
Oh, let me throw this at you.
I'm a, I'm a man, Craig of theCreek on cartoon network is for
me the latch key kids.

(56:47):
It is a cartoon.
It's one of the best cartoonsthat I've ever seen done.
Okay.
And if you're a kid of theeighties who, you know, we were
just allowed to wrong, likeit'll, it'll hit you.
Exactly, man, these kids now I,you know, sometimes I, I, I I'm
like, you know, parents will belike, I'm like, yo, I can't

(57:10):
really relate because I got todo, man, we got to do three or
four times.
I mean, you can't watch a kidall the time.
Like, well, minor, minor areseven and eight.
Uh, Jean will be, uh, uh, seven,I'm sorry, four and seven gene

(57:30):
will be eight in April.
And um, man, like, I don't knowwhat happened, but we, we, we
put these hedges on him, uh, andyou don't even realize you're
doing it.
Yeah.
Good friend of mine runs abookstore in, uh, Oklahoma city
now.
And admin said that, um, evenmore than paddling sex, we

(57:57):
traffic in fear.
That is the number one thing wetraffic it.
Wow.
That is RO that's what I wouldhave van Steven.
Think about that.
Yeah.
As the, um, last Halloweencostume, we don't celebrate
Halloween.
Okay.
One of those things of, uh, of,uh, you know, going in to Donald

(58:20):
Bell's church, man, and thatjust had us rethink it.
So the last Halloween costume weallowed Ruby, she was maybe two,
um, and two or three and we lether be a lamb.
And that's one of the thingsthat our kids miss out on every
year.
And it's hard cause our kids areincredibly cute.
So one of the things we thoughtis, well, maybe we'll let them

(58:41):
do like dress up birthdayparties and it just hasn't
materialized.
But yeah, our kids are, um, theydon't do Halloween.
Yeah.
Cause you could do dress up onother days.
I have a sugar tooth, like we'vegot a candy drawer.
Like I just told you about myfavorite junk food.
And then I've got like, like,man, this dude is a candy kind
of sore.
He could go back to him everytime.

(59:04):
So Charlotte almonds.
Yeah.
So our kids are not missing outon candy by any stretch of the
mat.
So, so Halloween is candy andcostumes are now.
So over-sexualized particularlyfor adults, so there's no need
for it.
Right.
Exactly.
Cake or pie.
Okay.

(59:24):
Okay.
Uh, do you ever postinspirational posts on social
media?
No.
I'm typically a callingsomething out that I think needs
to be said.
Right?
Like I've had to stop myselffrom posting reminders about,
um, you know, what happenedJanuary six, right.

(59:47):
Because it's gotten lost in theconsciousness or, you know, Jay
Z, um, we're celebrating Jay Z,but he sold out cap and the
cause so that he could sell ACEof spades and make a bunch of
money on title and get a, uh,and have the weekend saying Coke

(01:00:08):
anthems.
Right?
Like these are things at thesuper bowl.
This is, this is what he soldout.
This is what he kept the, the,the, um, the movement for.
But that's the type of thingsI'll do typically.
Would you consider him, uh, didhe, would you consider, did he
give up power or is he gettingpower in your opinion, any money

(01:00:31):
he's getting money, he's losingcredibility with his original
core audience and gaining itwith, uh, those who, uh, believe
that capitalism and money isimportant.
Okay.
So w was he gaining or losingpower to you though as an

(01:00:52):
organizer?
Do you think he's, he'sdefinitely, I would say gaining
power and he's gaininginfluence.
Um, and he's gaining, he'sprobably gaining power because
he has the ability to tap intomoney in other ways.
Right.
So, and then let's be honestwithin our community, uh, the

(01:01:12):
African-American community,there are a lot of people who
look up and just laud him forbeing able to make the, uh, the
transition.
Um, right.
And he, and he's done it on hisown terms.
Right.
I remember a few years back whohe had the hat that said retired
drug dealer.

(01:01:33):
Right.
And that was just like, ha like,no, like almost cursed the
pocket.
That's not funny, bro.
Yeah.
As someone who's, um, no hadmembers of the family who have
suffered and dealt withaddiction, like there's real

(01:01:57):
harm that comes from that at thevery least like, can, can you
not repent and say, man, I didsome awful Louie awfully
terrible things to get to whereI've gotten to.
Um, and uh, I see the error ofthat and I'm gonna spend my time

(01:02:18):
trying to make right.
But you know, every, no netsversus, you know, about those
those days.
And there seems to be noreformation, uh, or no reform
for that.
So it's funny that you say thatbecause I think the 30th
anniversary of new Jack city waslast week and I was listening to

(01:02:41):
the conversation on glove housewith all the original actors,
producers, and directors andmusicians, uh, you know, uh,
what's his name?
Christopher, ChristopherWilliams, Christopher Williams,
and you know, all of them.
Yeah.
Mario van Peebles, Chris rock,all right.
We're all on this clubhouse chatand remembering the movie and

(01:03:05):
you watch the movie, it wasabout drugs, you know, drug
dealing was in the movie, butthose guys were careful to say
this isn't the life.
These people all die or, youknow, yeah.
There's a terrible cost to thisthing.
And you know, that was rightbefore we, you know, that was
like 1990, 91, like where theywould kind of be able to, uh,

(01:03:30):
uh, show the crack era.
And I was just, it was justinteresting.
It was interesting to hear themthink that they had to have a
message in as violent and asvile as a movie, you know,
people could, uh, portray themovie, but then here's Jay Z
ease, ease, ease, saying, look,it doesn't end up like that for

(01:03:55):
everybody look at me.
Right.
Right.
You know, it's funny.
Right.
Uh, NWA, get I for better orworse.
My belief is that of the past30, 35 years, uh, NWA has the
biggest influence on theAfrican-American community.

(01:04:17):
Hmm.
You say that, uh, you gonna haveto elaborate on that.
Unpack that you've got, you'vegot run DMC saying you cheating
on your wife.
You know that ain't right.
NWA comes back a few years laterand says, I ain't the one she

(01:04:38):
swallowed it right.
In the narrative shifts, you'vegot easy.
E the drug dealer turned recordis Zack mogul where we're now
glorifying a gangster lifestyle.
And so, um, when that comes out,you know, the message, uh, East

(01:05:04):
coast rap, you know, takes note.
And even it's not like drugdealing was new.
It was only on the West coast.
It was.
Yes.
But now it's okay to glorify it.
Right.
Um, and so even though there maybe movies like new Jack city
that have the message, um, in itthat that's not the lifestyle,

(01:05:28):
many of us take, but there'sstill, there's still money to be
made.
There are still women to be gotin, in that.
I, I see NWA as that turningpoint.
Yeah.
No, it's interesting that you,you, you would, you know, um,
point that out and, you know, Ithink that, uh, yeah, so I was

(01:05:53):
talking to another artist, uh,well, an artist, um, by the name
of reconcile and he he's in rapspaces, inspirational gospel
music, gospel, uh, art gospel,rap, gospel, um, visuals.
And one of the things he saidwas like, right now, the number

(01:06:15):
one, listen to artists onYouTube is this cat, um, NBA
young boy.
Oh yeah.
And he says, when you listenedto NBA, young boy, like F you
know, it's number one, artists.
And it's been, he's been thenumber one artist for awhile.
And every three months he dropsa project and he says something

(01:06:37):
kind of interesting.
He said, man, listen, you gonnathink I'm crazy, but he's tapped
into a frequency.
And I said, man, you know,helped me understand that I'm
not a musician though.
You know, I don't know whatyou're talking about, bro.
He said, man, now he's tappedinto a frequency.
And, and you know, when peoplesay they're vibing in the
studio, when they, when he'svibing, he catches this

(01:07:00):
frequency.
And they said, what kind offrequency that he's like, it's
the devil's frequency.
And I really didn't.
I said, man, that's a, that's,that's a bold statement.
Helped me understand.
He said, when you listened tothe lyrics, he said, people who
have an untrained ear, hear it.
And think the beat's not thattight, I've heard better beats

(01:07:23):
for way better beats, the lyricsare dead tight.
This sucks.
And they, and they change it.
But people who are tap into thefrequency is murder, kill rape
violence, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
And they just, they just vibe,he said, this music now, or, and

(01:07:44):
um, you know, this is comingfrom, uh, a 30 year old.
Right.
He's you know, and so he's, he'sclose to it.
And so he said, man, this musicnow is, uh, it's all about
frequency and vibe.
You either feel it and thinkit's amazing, or you don't,

(01:08:05):
because it's not about the logicof the flow or, you know, all of
that.
That's that's from thegeneration before where you
think, you know, Oh man, youknow, this flow is tight.
You know, all the lyrics aredeep, intense.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
He's like this music is by music.
You either get it, man.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
Um, but anyway, I wanted to shift gears to family
and calling and uh, want to, Iwanted to ask you what, what
does, when I say family, whatdoes family mean to you?
Well, uh, unfortunate right now.
And it immediately goes toGabrielle and, and our children.

(01:09:00):
And then I think about, youknow, spawning off of that.
Um, but right now, typicallyevery, I mean, especially in a
pandemic where you're being, uh,well, hopefully being careful
and cautious.
Right.
My, I think about them in thedecisions that I made.

(01:09:20):
Yeah.
No, I think, yeah.
It almost in strengths, youridea of family too, and the
people in my household and yeah.
The household.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Uh, his family, part of thecalling that you feel, or is it

(01:09:41):
separate to you?
It, it is.
Um, and for me, I think about,um, you know, it's part of the
calling, that's what you'resaying.
It is.
I think about what God hascalled me to add, you know, to
the role that God has called meto, within my family, um,

(01:10:05):
husband and father, um, whatdoes that mean?
What are the responsibilitiesthat come with that?
What are the benefits and theblessings that come with that?
Right.
Uh, and then also when I thinkabout professional calling, how
that works to reinforce thecalling that I have in my home,

(01:10:27):
I'm very fortunate.
I've got, uh, a profession in ajob, right.
That did not need to be in theoffice.
I didn't need to, uh, you know,put myself in harm's way, uh,
which thankful for, um, I had asupervisor and a boss whose

(01:10:52):
thought was, if you can get yourjob done, do whatever you need
to do to get your job done.
And I'm, uh, understanding ofthe things that you have going
on at home that affect yourability to get your job done.
Right?
So there wasn't undueunnecessary pressure and I've
really felt during this time,good leadership is become clear

(01:11:18):
and bad leadership has becomeclear, right?
Supervisors who need to havetheir hands on everything.
And, um, no unnecessarily checkin with folks, uh, put people
through the ringer, um, that'sbecome clear, um, and then fall

(01:11:40):
to recognize, just get the workdone, right.
The job is still the job.
Um, but let me be, uh,supportive of you in, in the
things that you have going onto, to, uh, assist you in being
able to, to get that job done onyour term.
Right.
It's not on these prescribedher.

(01:12:02):
And, uh, I just mean this hasbeen, the pandemic has been a
stress tests yeah.
In so many ways.
Right.
Um, do you, um, in the midst ofyour, your calling and in the
midst of all that you've gotgoing, I mean, how do you, you

(01:12:25):
raised two children and, andwhat do you do in light of all
of that?
Um, I, I mean, personally, it'sbeen challenging right?
The past few months, it reallyweighed on me.
Um, I dealt with some depressionback in 2009, 10, and I told

(01:12:45):
myself that I would never allowmyself to go back there again,
if it, you know, so much as itdepended on me, but I started to
feel some creep in.
Uh, and so I've been thinking,okay, what do I need to do to
address this so that it doesn't,you know, uh, come further right

(01:13:05):
now.
I've got a wife and two kidsthat depend on me and now, which
I didn't have back then.
Uh, and so I'm very invested inaddressing it early on.
Whereas back then the idea wouldbe to white, knuckle it, and
know to man up or whatever rightnow as much more, well, let's be

(01:13:28):
vulnerable.
And let's figure this out andlet's talk with some people who
care about you.
And you know, my, one of mygreatest, uh, I've done this
before, so I would say regrets,but also fears.
It's taking out my issues on thepeople around me.
Right.
I just, I don't want that.

(01:13:49):
I don't want people doing it tome.
Right.
When you're in deep relationshipwith people, it happens.
It happens.
It just does.
Right.
That's what you signed up forwhen you sign up to be in
relationship with people.
But let me not make it a normalpractice.
You know, let me where I see ithappening or understand that
it's going to happen.
Let me do what I can to, to cutit out, uh, and to do better.

(01:14:15):
So, um, like I said, it's been achallenge, but, uh, you know,
it's, I wake up and I go tosleep believing that if God's
called you to do something, thenit's possible, right.

(01:14:38):
If God's placed you in asituation, right.
I, I don't believe God tries totrick us.
I don't think God tries to trapus.
Right.
It may not go the way look theway you expected it to be and
go, but it's there it'spossible.

(01:15:01):
And so your role is beingpatient and figuring out what is
it that God would have you to doto get there, right.
And again, or is, is it even,are you focused on the wrong

(01:15:22):
there?
Yeah, man, go ahead.
I'm sorry.
No, that's just kind of where Iland on it, right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, do you feel the tensionsometimes of having to balance,
or have you felt in the pasthaving to balance, what do you

(01:15:43):
feel led to do all to do and,uh, your professional life and
work in general and beingpresent and leading your family,
do you ever felt that tension inthe past?
I have.
Um, I have, and, and in my mind,you know, the, the father or

(01:16:10):
husband provide a role was okay,I need y'all and you to allow me
to do this, because ultimatelythis, this innumerous back to
the home.
Right, right.
But if you ain't got no home,cause you don't push everybody
away.
Right.

(01:16:32):
Let's focus in, that's kind ofwhat, getting back to what I was
saying about, uh, what God'scalled you to do, right.
God ain't called me to be afundraiser, right?
Like this will be your job.
Right.
God, I believe it's called me tobe a husband and a father and
the fundraiser assistant Dean atthe uni at the Oklahoma city

(01:16:54):
university, school of law worksfor that.
When, when it doesn't work forthat, then I got to find a new
role.
Yeah.
And that's been the shift for meover the past.
I don't know, however manyyears.
Um, so do you think that has,that has influenced your

(01:17:15):
decision to look at calling foryou as seasons seems like when a
season is in it's in and when aseason is up for you, it's
again, I try not to be tooattached to the stuff that I
shouldn't be attached to.
Right.
I need to be attached toGabrielle.

(01:17:35):
I need to be attached to thesekids to the point until they
leave and cleave.
Right.
And that's it, you know?
Um, and then there are otherthings that I'm attached to, but
if those attachments are inconflict with my Gabrielle and
kids' attachments and, you know,focusing on your priorities,

(01:17:56):
right.
They can be good things, but youcan't no, even your child,
you're going to love that child,but it can't get in between you
and Erica.
Right.
That's just, it is, it is whatit is.
That's the game love.
Now, let me ask you, when yousee it, just pop in mind when
you see these guys and women whosacrifice everything to be, uh,

(01:18:29):
may see the calling and CEO asthis, as that.
I mean, I don't know.
I just want to know your, yourthought behind.
Is there room for that too?
Or is there something wrong?
I don't know.
I'm always just, there'sdefinitely room conflicted.
There there's definitely roomfor it, but I also think you've

(01:18:50):
got to do it on your terms.
Right.
And when you've not made thoseterms clear early on, people,
people will take advantage ofthat.
Right.
Okay.
All right.
So I was approached about aposition a few months back,

(01:19:14):
right.
Looked at the organization,looked at their, the people they
had in leadership, um, looked attheir board, had a list of
question, right?
One of them was, I noticed thatyou all don't have any or many

(01:19:41):
minorities on your board.
Uh, and I don't see anyAfrican-Americans.
Uh, and I also don't see anyAfrican-American men within
leadership of the organizationor on your board.
Right.
So I want to talk with you.
I, one of the things I'll becurious about is your, you know,
your efforts on diversity,equity and inclusion.

(01:20:01):
Right.
I didn't hear anything back.
They did not move forward withmy candidacy, a little salty.
Right.
But ultimately those are myterms.
I need to know how much, howimportant this is to you.
All right.
Now upfront, because again talksabout my, my education, my

(01:20:23):
childhood, right.
I got a great childhood, but youknow, a great education at
Booker T Washington, but I wasone of a handful of black kids
in the AP and IB program.
Yeah.
Um, I don't need or desire to bethe model minority in, you know,

(01:20:48):
in my forties, particularly whenwe're talking about, uh, an
organization that's located in atop 20 top 10 metropolitan area.
Right.
Um, so those are my terms andI'm comfortable with that.

(01:21:11):
Does it mean that I may not getto get to certain opportunities
and that's fine.
What I'm thankful for, with whatI have, you know, currently
having my, again, got aphenomenal, uh, boss, um,
phenomenal colleagues.
We are a private law school, uh,in Oklahoma that three of our

(01:21:36):
seventeens are black.
And so you get recruited by ablack woman, you matriculate, uh
, through law school.
Another black woman is the Deanof that.
You become an alumnus alumna and, uh, want to be engaged.

(01:21:58):
There's a black man thatoversees that.
Right.
So, and that's an OklahomaHomer, right?
Yeah.
I'm not regressing.
Particularly if I go intoanother place, uh, go to another
metropolitan area or anothercity that is supposedly more

(01:22:23):
diverse than where I come from.
Right.
So those are my terms.
Now here's the problem, um,where you don't state that
upfront.
Right.
It's hard to address it on thebackend.
Right.

(01:22:43):
So, um, again, when I, if I haveconversations, my family's
important to me, right?
There are certain things thatI'm going to be looking for with
regard to structure, how, howbolts are managed is important
to me, how folks are treated.
I believe that no matter who youare, what you look like, where

(01:23:07):
you come from, what's yoursexual orientation preference.
Gender is you have a fundamentalhuman dignity that deserves to
be respected, right?
If an organization doesn't agreewith that, then we don't need

(01:23:30):
your, your values and my valuesdon't align.
Right?
Yeah.
And so those, again, these aremy terms, I think you can become
CEO or Dean or president orwhatever.
Right.
But you gotta be clear aboutyour terms and what you're
willing to sacrifice and whatyou're not willing to sacrifice.

(01:23:52):
And I think a lot of folks who,um, get to these high level
positions, but their home lifeis terrible.
We're not clear about theirterms or they just weren't clear
about their priorities.
Hey man, that's that rightthere.
I like to have this.

(01:24:14):
That is its own discussion thatI kind of talked through because
I mean, I know I've, I, youknow, we all struggle with it to
various extents.
And I do think man, you know, uh, as, as black men and as black
women who are part of theminority, this, that is a

(01:24:35):
struggle is climb being the end,all be all.
Or man is there, are there somefour principles and core things
we should, we should have and tohold and, and say, even if I
don't, you know, ascend to the,to, to, to that, to the mountain
tops, I'm still good.

(01:24:55):
Cause I'm still me.
But man, that's another, I, well, that's something I want to get
to, I'll throw another one atyou again.
Uh, me having learned underDonald, uh, as long as I did you
go back to Genesis and you know,Eve is called to be a helpmate.
Yeah.

(01:25:16):
And far too many of us as menhave said, okay, my role is to
be a provider.
Um, you know, um, bring in theresources is money.
Well that, but also let me seethe home and the running of that
over to my E.

(01:25:39):
But you know, I'm not in, I'mnot talking about, okay, this is
it's to be my program.
This is to me how I see it.
But no, this is a partnership.
This is, uh, you know, Eve asthe help mate.
So Y right, Christian male, whowants to run a company, are you

(01:26:02):
leaving the household to betotally run by your wife, which
is a company, right.
Which is a company and have noauthority have no idea what your
kids are dealing with, what'sgoing on at home.
But you're, but you're, you'resaying you're professing
Christian principle, right?

(01:26:25):
Th th that, that the, theintelligence of the wisdom of
that eludes me.
Oh, I hit it.
Um, okay.
Last two questions.
And then I'm going to let you goColin and joins flow.
What do you think is missing inthe conversation regarding, um,

(01:26:48):
George Floyd and the situationsthat have occurred around it?
And after, after his passingthem would be clear.
So reading the Washington postreading a headline today, a
little quote underneath, ittalks about how a black Democrat

(01:27:11):
is worried about her sons orher, his son's safety.
Whereas the white Republicansare concerned about the burdens
of, uh, the police.
And that was how they spun it.

(01:27:32):
Right.
But I think that's somewhataccurate, right?
So this idea of safety,wellbeing, life livelihood, life
versus bird.
Yeah.
Think about safety.
Can I, can I live versus what'splaced upon me as I live.

(01:27:53):
Yeah.
The fact that, and, uh, I've hadnumerous discussions with our
friend Donald about this, theidea that, uh, there are a group
, there is a profession thattypically can retire at 50 or

(01:28:14):
55, whatever they just, with apension, um, that has given the
ability to make split seconddecisions that can result in
loss of life and are given thebenefit of the doubt of those
decisions.
Right.

(01:28:35):
Um, yet have not been given anincreased level of
accountability is problematic.
So we need to look structurallyor systematically.
If that that's what I don'tbelieve is happening enough.

(01:28:59):
Um, the idea that someone cansay I was in fear of my life, or
, uh, and so I decided toneutralize a threat when you're
in a job that's inherentlydangerous.

(01:29:21):
Right, right.
Uh, those are part of the risksof the job.
Now, in order to do that again,we provide both the ability to
retire at an earlier age withfull pension.
And I don't have any problemswith that, but there's,
something's got to give at somepoint, right.

(01:29:45):
Um, because you can't have itall and have it every which way.
Right.
So we need to, um, increase thelevel of training.
Right.
We need to, or we need toincrease the level of

(01:30:06):
consequences, or something's gotto give for police again, to be
given.
This aid is incredibly high.
I mean, the ability is a wholelife in your hand.
Right.
But then to say, well, I was infear of my life, right.

(01:30:28):
The reason that we can't, orthat is so hard to convict a
police officer is because,right.
We've got to convince thembeyond a reasonable doubt, but
yet they are already given thebenefit of the doubt.
Right.

(01:30:48):
Police officer shoots someone.
Well, we automatically thinkthat person must have been
committing a crime.
Right.
But then we've got, I mean, thestandard is beyond a reasonable
doubt.
Well, how do you do that?
When you've already said placedin people's minds, right.
Through our culture that, um,they, they, this is what police

(01:31:14):
officers do, right.
This is what they should, theyshould neutralize the threat.
Right.
So it it's, we've got to, we gotto make some real systemic
changes around what's going onwith policing and as that's good
stuff, uh, let, let me, let mealso, because this is Donald's

(01:31:36):
point, you're not able to behere with us.
Right.
But he says, um, and I thinkit's a valid point when we say
that a police officer is allowedto shoot an unarmed person.
Right.
And not be convicted.

(01:31:58):
Now they have usurped, not justthe life and the rights of the
person that was, that waskilled.
We've used, served theconstitution, right?
Because the constitution saysthat you get the right to a jury
trial, right.

(01:32:18):
If I'm dead, I no longer get theright to the jury trial.
Now, of course, if that personposes an imminent threat, right.
Well, there may be reason toneutralize the threat,
particularly in my mind, if theypose a threat to other people
civilians, right.

(01:32:39):
Who don't have the ability likepolice officers to go and, and
to we'll make life or deathdecisions and get the benefit of
the doubt and who are nottrained.
Right.
So if you need to save, um, to,to neutralize the threat, so
this, this person does not killan innocent bystander.

(01:33:02):
I can understand that, but tosay my life was in jeopardy.
So I needed to neutralize thethreat.
Well, again, yes, everybodywants to make it home, you know,
alive, but should that be areasonable request or an

(01:33:22):
assumption in such an inherentlydangerous position when that's
one of the risks of the positionagain.
And I think you're right,because the stunt guy ain't
don't change the risk because Imean, they may pay him more
because he's, uh, uh, you know,a stunt double whatnot, but the

(01:33:47):
job is a job.
If you're going to do it, itcomes with what it comes with.
Now, if you say, man, I needmore pay.
I need a better pension, whichis what they do for police
officers.
Because if you retiring at 50and 55, you're doing pretty
good.
Yeah.
We're, you're, we're about 14years away, right.
Or nine or 14.
No.

(01:34:08):
Right.
Working.
Yeah.
But that's not happening.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, but Steve, StephenG.
Butler, thank you so much for,um, your time, uh, your energy,
your talent, bro.
You really should write this up,do something.
Well, you know what I mean?

(01:34:28):
That was why me, you and Donaldwas bringing us together.
We needed to write that article.
And maybe, maybe that comes outof the conversation.
Right.
Let's do it For sure, man.
Thank you.
Stephen G.
Butler foot, man of your time,your talent, your treasure.
And man, I hope thisconversation

Speaker 4 (01:34:56):
[inaudible].