November 19, 2024 • 61 mins
Testimonies offer us a rich insight into the dynamics of the Christian life. Join Apostle Dr. Lee Ann B. Marino and guest Minister Charlie Reep of Sanctuary International Fellowship Tabernacle - SIFT for their story through Evangelical Christianity, to asexual and aromantic insights, to Sanctuary, and ultimately, to ministry. (Intro and Conclusion Track "Ready to Rock" by Yvgeniy Sorokin, https://pixabay.com/users/eugenemyers-40510887/. ACTS Seminary ad back track "Worship" by Ivan Luzin, https://pixabay.com/music/main-title-worship-151061/.)
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
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Apostolic Covenant Theological Seminary, the Revolution starts here.
Welcome to Kingdom Now, the podcast featuring Faith with an Edge,
(00:55):
as we celebrate the Kingdom of God within you.
I am your host, Dr. Lee Ann Marino, apostle, author,
podcaster, professor, and theologian, and founder of Spitfire Apostolic Ministries
and all the works that go along with it.
I am excited to share this program with you,
as we explore the ins and outs of counter-culture Christianity,
(01:18):
present as you live out the Kingdom of God in your everyday life.
Want to learn more? Visit my website at www.kingdompowernow.org
And now, our program, which features a variety of formats here, just for you.
Interviews on a variety of relevant topics, teaching and preaching proclaimed everywhere
(01:39):
from my North Carolina studio to sanctuary and beyond.
And powerful insights here for now as we turn the world upside down everywhere we go.
[Applause]
Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, happy whatever time update is,
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wherever you are, and to our listeners in... name a Country.
Mexico.
Two our listeners in Mexico and all of the other Spanish-speaking countries,
we say, what do the Hola? I was going to say, what do they say?
[Laughter]
Great start.
Okay, this is a great start.
(02:22):
We say, Hola, okay, I should have known that.
Look, I never studied Spanish, so that's still not an excuse.
We hope that whatever time update is when you are listening that you are having a good one.
And I welcome you to this edition of the Kingdom Now podcast,
and I am your host, Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino here as the Spitfire,
serving as the voice of counter-culture Christianity,
where we feature the theme of faith with an edge.
(02:44):
And if you would like to learn more about the World of Counter-Culture Christianity,
feel free to visit my website at kingdompowernow.org.
Testimonies are very important.
They remind us of where we come from, and at the same time they offer hope,
because they let everybody know that what God has done for us he can do for them.
And today, my guest is actually a returning guest who, you know, very frequently on this podcast,
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is minister Charlie Reep, who is our teacher at sanctuary International Fellowship Tabernacle,
and is going to give us their story of how they caught where they are today by God's grace.
And so, minister Charlie, tell everybody a little bit about yourself as an introduction.
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Well, hey, I'm minister Charlie, they/them pronoun user, like
possibly an already said, I'm the minister of, I think my official title is minister of education.
As sanctuary, which is very, very fun and official sounding.
Yeah, run for office with that.
No, thank you.
Hard pass, it was already, it was already a stretch to get me a ministry.
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Here we are. And here we are. I never thought I would be a minister, but here we are.
And I was laughing at something Nik said in their testimony of like, oh, I never thought I would go
back to school, but here I am back in seminary. It happens. It does happen. I am having fun with it.
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Oh, I really enjoy learning. So this is right at my alley. I guess what else to introduce me?
I have a website. Yeah, I've got a blog/website. It started out as,
and I'll probably go into more detail through my testimony, but it started out as like a personal diary
that I just put online because that's what you do as a young millennial.
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And I basically was going through the process of deconstructing my faith, but I wanted to,
instead of like, de-convert from Christianity altogether, my faith was really important to me still.
And so I was like, let me see if I can process through some of the stuff that doesn't really work.
And come to a better understanding of who God is. And so I documented that process on
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Tumblr of all places. And it eventually turned into, yeah, it eventually turned into
enough of a resource that, you know, people would come ask me questions about things. And I'm like,
hey man, I'm just figuring stuff out myself, but this is where I think I'm going with it, or
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I would put in a lot of resources like LGBTQ, and eventually got to the point where
I couldn't organize all my stuff on Tumblr very well. So I was like, let me just put it on WordPress.
What do you mean? I have a domain now. Okay, this is fine. So if you want to go check out my
basically library of resources for queer questioning and deconstructing traditions,
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it is beloved-not-broken.com. So beloved-not-broken.com. The one without dashes was already taken. So
we have dashes. Well, I like dashes. I think it gives it character.
I think it's just easy to read. It is. No, it's a lot easier to read than all these
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websites where all the words are run together, saying that as somebody whose websites are all run
together-but as at least it makes sense. You're so excited. Well, I worked on that, and I also got some of my
domains when we were still able to have variety. Right. It's a lot harder now to find them because a lot
of people already have taken stuff as you fully well experienced, but yeah, I think it makes it very
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clear and very easy to read. And I will also run this up the flag poll that you have a very, very
well-organized and easy to read site. I appreciate it. I'm pleasing to the eye, and I absolutely
recommend that our listeners check it out. I recommend it on my pathos column and in different places.
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And so I think it's absolutely worth checking out. It's got a lot of wonderful resources on it.
I appreciate it. And if I could like, you know, just do a shameless plug here for a minute. If you go
to the website, you- it's basically aimed at queer questioning and deconstructing Christians.
The first thing you'll find on there, it's like, hey, I know what it's like to be in your shoes,
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start with the resources page, and it'll basically take you to all the answers you need. If you keep
scrolling, you'll get to popular topics where I blog a lot about mental health, boundaries,
and injustice. I also have a search bar if you want to search for something else. I've written,
I think it's like 55 posts I've published so far. I have finally outpaced the number of drafts
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that I've published versus drafts, which is fine, or which is wonderful. I have a thing about
spiritual warfare on there and Christian nationalism. Other helpful resources I've organized,
my sermon and podcast episodes that I've been on. So all the kingdom now ones are
located on that page. I've done Sunday school lessons. I have dirty commentaries for all the geeks
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out there. And then at the very bottom is a resource for allies. It's like if you want to be an ally,
here's what you need to know so you can fully support the LGBTQ community. It opens at a PDF,
it's nine pages, free to download. It's got some definitions, common questions, links to some helpful
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stuff. So yeah, I highly recommend checking that out. Also, there's a place to contact me. There's
I think a form that like you can submit directly to my website and my social media is on there.
Wonderful. So that like we say is a real resource. Very easy to use to figure out and so definitely
go on there. Beloved-not-broken.com. So we know this is a testimony episode. And I think that
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they're often difficult to do because we always think no one wants to hear about us.
But given the site that you run and that you so eloquently have stated what you do and why
you do what you do, we want to know about you. And I'm sure that our listeners would like to know more
about you too, as well as everybody who's going to listen once this is up for the first time. So
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I'm going to take a step back. I'll interject questions as they kind of come along.
Okay, tell us a story start from wherever you feel comfortable in your life beginning.
So I'd like to joke that I have queso brain which is my which as as you so eloquently stated,
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my brain is just full of trivia and so I don't remember a lot of things that other people. Yeah,
that other people would find important like I don't have a lot of fun childhood stories that come
up to that come to mind right now. But I mean, I guess if this is a testimony, I'll start with getting
saved as a young kid. So I was very involved in church growing up. My parents were
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evangelical. We went to a Christian and missionary alliance church in a predominantly white suburb.
And so it was I feel like it was a different flavor of what is it? C&MA than it usually would be.
But I mean, I was really plugged in. I was part of AWANA from like, there's pictures of me being in
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cubbies. I don't remember being in cubbies, which is like for the for the tiny tots. And then
all the way up to I believe high school, maybe middle school or high school. I even have one of the
awards called the Timothy award that I still display in my office that has do not let people
look down on you because you're a young Bible verse. I do not remember the references, but all this just
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came up. Yeah, all this to say that I really enjoyed church growing up. I was really plugged in as a kid.
And so it's only fitting that from what I recall, I got saved when I was in Sparks,
so like the elementary school level. I want to say I was seven years old because seven's a good
number, right? And so I, yeah, I got exactly. So I got saved at seven. And I would periodically like
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repeat the sinner's prayer throughout my life at like bedtime or something, just to make sure it's stuck.
I don't I guess I was like terrified of going to hell or something like that. Really don't remember
being that existential, that young, but I definitely was a more serious introspective kid. So I'm like,
I wouldn't put it past me to have those kind of thoughts. And then I stayed evangelical for
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up through college, actually. I went after we went to that Christian and missionary alliance church,
we went to an independent Baptist church and then I went to college and then I basically living
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on college campuses had a very limited choice in where I went to church. So sometimes I would get
rides with friends to go to one of the mega church church plants in the area. Sometimes I would go
to ones that were on campus and I eventually found one that my parents knew the leaders of that
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church from like way back when I think those church leaders were actually influential in getting
my parents saved when they were in college. Oh wow. Yeah. So like basically church runs real deep.
I mean, going back to the reason we were part of that original church, the Christian and missionary
alliance church was because I think my parents knew a lot of people from there, from their
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either college days or from when they first got saved. And so they made friends with a lot of,
I guess the adults there. And so by proxy, all of us kids became friends. And so I had a really good
friend group through church that way. Let's see, moving on. College. Sounds like you guys kind of
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lived around church. Oh, absolutely. I would say that of all my siblings, I have two younger siblings,
I was definitely the most passionate about church couldn't really tell you why. I mean, I guess in
hindsight, it's probably the Holy Spirit moving me in that direction. But I was always just like, yeah,
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church is more than like a building. It's it became my community. Even though I had friends like
through public school and I was in public school my entire life, I felt like church was my home.
And so when I got to college, I did go through like a mini crisis of faith because
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it's college, you're exposed to a lot of different ideas, you're exposed to a lot of different people.
And it was the first time really that I wasn't like quote unquote forced to go to church. I could
decide to sleep in on Sundays if I wanted to. Eventually I got to the point where I was like, yeah,
I'd rather sleep in. I still participated in Bible studies through it used to be called campus
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crusade for Christ. They have rebranded to get away from the horrible history of the Middle Ages
and the crusades at the time. And so now I agree. Yep. And so now it's just cru. See are you?
So that was like the, yeah, so that was the big deal Christian youth organization at the school I
went to. And so that's where my entire friend group basically ended up being from. And then
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that was also the time period where I learned that I was asexual and part of, well, not necessarily
part of the queer community, but I, but that's like the beginnings of it. So in college when I'm
sort of redefining my, my faith identity is also when I was introduced the idea that I might not be
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straight. So that was a fun time. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. What brought you to that? So I, so did you know
that's a story for queer people all by itself. Right. I don't honestly, I really don't recall
what specifically brought me to that place. I just remember that so being essentially at the time
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female, although now I identify as non-binary, the consensus was that when you are a young Christian
woman that you go off to college to get your MRS degree, which means you go off to college to get
married. It doesn't matter what you're studying, you just, you go to college to find a husband. It is
true in, like if it's true in public schools and I went to the biggest public university in North
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Carolina, then it's got to be true, it's got to be true in like the, the tiny colleges too. So that was
just a surprise. Ah ok, the Mrs. Degree. Oh, okay. Yeah. I was like, I thought maybe that stood for
something that that was just too obvious that it's just Mrs. as Ms. No, it's, it's about, yeah, it's,
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you just, basically you get hitched in college. It's like the ring by spring kind of, kind of culture.
So that's what I was surrounded with. And of course, it's also the South, the Bible belt. So you got
all of that Christian influence despite being at a very secular school, which I found fascinating.
So I had always, I don't know, I, I guess in middle schools the first time I was introduced to
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dating and I was like, we're too young to be dating. Like, you know, I'm 13 years old having this
thought, like, why are you asking me out? We're too young to be dating our parents would have to drive
us places. And so I was like, I'll just wait, I'll just wait till college to start dating and then
it's college. And I'm like, Oh, I should, I should be, I should be dating, right? And I just wasn't
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really interested in it. Like, I guess I had ideas of, I would have quote, quote, romantic ideas of,
like, being married to a man. But I was like, it's, it just doesn't really, it doesn't seem that
appealing in practice. So my dating life was basically non-existent. There were a couple of,
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of guys who ended up liking me and I just wasn't really, I just wasn't really feeling it. I was like,
I'd rather just be friends with you or, you know, I'd rather just kind of do my own thing. And so,
I guess about that time, I had gotten into Tumblr for the first time because I was really into,
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I don't remember how I got even got on Tumblr, but I was basically on Tumblr for those of you who
are familiar with Tumblr culture. I was on Tumblr when SuWooLock was a big thing. So that was
the three top shows among the fandom community were Supernatural, Doctor Who and BBC Sherlock. And so,
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I was entrenched in that culture. You were in heaven. Yes, I was. And then oddly enough, I decided,
oh no, writing fanfiction, reading fanfiction, being in fandom culture is like,
doletary. And I can't do that because I'm a Christian and I deleted my Tumblr and I'm really sad about it.
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So, went through that whole phase where I was like, oh, I need to be a good Christian girl and just,
you know, I guess try out the dating scene and I didn't like it. I was like, no, no, this is not for me.
I had like, I guess a bad physical reaction to it. I was like, oh, I was really stressed out
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being in this relationship. And I was like, why is that? And so around the time, I was, I guess,
exploring Tumblr, asexuality was like still relatively a new thing. And I'd come across the term and I
was like, huh, this fits. Like the way that I understood asexuality at the time was that I was
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an interested in any sort of relationship. That is not what asexuality means asexuality means,
you experience a lack of sexual attraction towards a particular person. But at the time, I was like,
oh, you know, this sounds just like me. And I think as I went along, I eventually attached to the
label of demisexual, which is the official definition is being able to experience sexual attraction
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only if a strong bond is formed. And so being Christian, I was like, oh, yeah, like that's
what everybody experiences, right? No, spoiler alert. No, that's not a common experience.
So I tried to take my label to be fair, I had it first. This was like 2013.
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Okay, then yeah, you did have it first. Okay. Yes. So now you can have it and you can keep it. But
thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. And ironically enough, that's when I also learned about the term
erromantic. And I was like, there's no way that I'm aromantic. I experienced crushes. And I was
looking, looking back, like, oh, if only I knew. But so at the time, I just attached myself to the
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asexual label. And I was like, okay, so this is who I am. I ended up telling my mom about it. She
didn't quite understand it. But I mean, that's fine. I didn't really come public with that knowledge
to really anyone else. It's like, if I met somebody else who was asexual, then I'd be like, oh, yeah,
that's me too, but I wasn't out about it if that made sense. So then flash forward to the pandemic
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of all places. And, you know, we are locked up in our own spaces with all this time in the world to
think about things. And so that's when I revisit my identity. And I'm like, okay, asexual definitely
describes me. But then all of a sudden, I was like, oh, so these crushes I was experiencing weren't
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really crushes at all. It was intense feelings, sure, but intense feelings doesn't necessarily mean
you were romantically attracted to somebody. And as I was going through, I was like, oh,
I'm not actually romantically attracted to anyone. And so that's when I learned about the aromantic
label. And I started attaching that to myself. No, sorry, I'm getting my labels mixed up. I came out as
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aromatic in 2019, I believe. So it was before the pandemic. Actually, let me look at my story. I have
my story over on beloved, not broken. And so, yeah, wanted to confirm. So 2013 during college, I started
using asexual describe my lack of interest in dating and let alone sex. 2019, when I moved to Charlotte,
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and I will come back to that point in my life a little bit later, I realized I'm aromatic. And I also come
out to my sister who came out to me and yes, that was a fun time. And we both got to tell our parents
within the span of a year that, hey, two of your kids are queer, have fun. And this is right before lockdown.
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So yeah, oh, yeah, oh, and just, oh, just just wait, just wait. So after all that, I come out as aromatic
in 2019, 2020 during lockdown. I had all the time in the world to really examine my thoughts. And I
could no longer run from the fact that I was like, huh, the label, tomboy, isn't just a passing trend.
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I genuinely do not identify myself as female or woman or whatever. And so 2020 is when I came out
finally, because there are times in my journal entries where I'm like, oh, I think I'm this,
and then promptly forgot about it for six months. And then I'm like, oh, I'm this. Oh, wait,
I already said the six months ago. Oops. So finally, except the fact that, hey, I'm non-binary and
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specifically agender, because I don't, I don't feel like I'm either like binary male or binary female.
I'm just kind of like, eh, gender, what's that? So that's the queer, that's the queer coming out story
in a nutshell. Interesting. Yeah. So when you first had this realization, because you pretty
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much set up your background, you were very immersed in church. You were obsessed with church.
It was a very, very big narration for your entire life. And it wasn't just a narration for you.
It sounds like it was one for your whole family. Absolutely. How did you react to all these realizations?
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So like I said, with the asexual thing, I just kind of assumed it was like, oh, it's some, it's,
I didn't consider it part of the queer identity. I did not consider myself part of the LGBTQ community.
And it would remain that way for another five years. So I'm just like, oh, this is just a fun
quirk about me. It's like, it's a, it's a fun term that explains why I don't like something,
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but it's also like, it fit my narration at the time of like, hey, Paul says you should be
celibate. You should be, you know, single till you get married, basically. You shouldn't necessarily
try to force anything. And so I was like, all right, fine, possible. Cool. I can, I can get behind
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the singleness thing. And I guess it was really in 2019, after my sister came out to me,
I had to get real cool with other parts of the LGBTQ community. Because up to that point,
I was like, I would pretty much describe myself as like, a closet homophobic. I wasn't
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as out about it. In high school, I definitely shared stuff that was like, oh, you know,
Miss South Carolina or Miss California or something had said something about, I believe,
marriage is between a man and a woman. I remember sharing that on Facebook. And I was like, yeah,
that's my stance. And now I'm just like, that's pretty much all I did. I, you know, I hadn't met any
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outqueer people in high school. And so I just kind of was like, I, you know, I just tried to make
friends with everybody, I guess. And it wasn't really my scene too. I was a band kid. So like, I was around
all the dweebs. And if there were, there weren't any like openly queer kids in band at the time. I
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guess it was also an era where, you know, it was 2008, 2009, where you didn't really see that a lot.
So I'm pretty sure, you know, however many percentage of people fall in the queer spectrum. It's like
somebody in that room. I mean, I was a queer person in that room. So it's like, multiple of us were
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probably somewhere on the LGBTQ spectrum, but we just weren't vocal about it. So up through college,
I wasn't really vocal against it. I do remember meeting a friend who, like later identified his
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queer. And I was like, Oh, okay, cool. I mean, like, yeah, you need Jesus, but like, so does everybody who
doesn't know God anyway. So like, I guess I remember using their pronouns and using their shows and name,
but like that's, I think as far as it went, which now that I think about it, I guess, despite being,
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you know, despite the views that I had, I was like, Oh, I was at least respectful. So I'm like, okay,
good on you, little, little chuck. Not to pet myself on the back, but I often look back at the times that I
did hold those views that I did hold the Southern Baptist like opinions about queer people and
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was like, Oh, God, please don't tell me I was that bad off. That's a story for another day, though.
I forgot where I was going with this. Oh, yes, how I got to that point. Yeah. So I had to be real
cool with the queer community, all of a sudden when my sister came out to me. And then I had a
mini crisis too because when I realized I'm aromatic, I'm like, Oh, okay, yeah, no, this isn't normal.
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Like, like, okay, yeah, Christians can be asexual in theory because we're told to be celibate. And
I'm like, Okay, fine, asexual, celibate, whatever. But romance is in everything. Romance is
deeply entrenched in church. It is deeply entrenched. It's deeply entrenched in the American dream in
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secular society. And I'm just like, Oh, I don't speak that language. Oh, there's something real
different about me. So it was a process. I think I know I came out to Nik when I realized it because
we had actually been talking about side note, Nik and I first met on the job when I moved to Charlotte
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in 2018. And Nik is how I found out about sanctuary and is pretty much the reason why I'm also
cool with queer stuff now because they were the one who introduced me to like non-binary and
eventually caused me to come out and really reflect on myself. And I can talk about that later if you
want. But in the meantime, yeah, but in the meantime, Nik was like the first person I think I told I was
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aromatic. I think I told my mom about it. I told a few other people about it, but my coming out didn't
really happen until 2020. So like, I think it was November 2020 after I realized, Oh, shoot, okay,
I'm non-binary. And then I was like, I want to go by a different name, which I didn't think I ever would.
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Which I'm rambling there is not a whole lot of organization of this story. It's just kind of coming out.
But the story behind my name is that my parents were originally going to name me Charlie when I was
born because they didn't know what like what sex I was as a kid before I was born. They were like,
Oh, we'll use this name if it's a girl and this name if it's if it's a boy. I ended up like, you know,
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I ended up coming out the womb and was like, Oh, it's a girl. Okay. And so they're like, All right,
we'll use this name. And I think my mom like 10 or 12 years later was like, Yeah, you know, we would have,
if we would have named you Charlie, if if you were born a boy. And I was and I was inwardly thinking like,
Why couldn't you have named me that if I was a girl? That's a cool name. And I just kind of kept that name in
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the back of my head forever until 2020 comes along. And I'm like, Hmm, what if we try out a different name
because we're experimenting with stuff. And so I tried the new name and I was like, Oh, shoot, I really,
really like being called Charlie. Oh, dear. And so it just kind of escalated from that point. I remember
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telling I told you guys you guys were probably the first people to call me Charlie because I had visited
sanctuary literally the week before I decided to change my name. And then I remember what walking
into Bible study, y'all both y'all both shouted like, Hey, Charlie, nice to see you and I about cried.
Because I was like, this is sweet. I told my other community leader, I broke down into
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house crying. I was like, Chris, I can't do this. And he was, he gave me a lot of insight. He was very
supportive. And you know, I told him about my feelings about my sister coming out and stuff like that.
Eventually I did find a therapist who is LGBTQ affirming and helped me process a lot of that stuff out.
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And then I made an Instagram post about it in November. I think around my birthday, I was like, Hey,
I'm turning this age. It's about time I introduced myself as a new, you know, new name or whatever.
And the reception was really positive overall. There were a couple of people from the church
side have been going to before quarantine, the husband of one of the young women that I was friends
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with decided to come in my my Instagram DMs and like, basically lament how I was so far from God
now because I made this decision and I'm just like, okay, all right. If I was just taken a back bite
because I was like, did you, what? My other poster about Jesus, but okay, okay, okay, sir. We've never
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really had a conversation, but okay, it was a lot more challenging when I came out in person to
my friends from back home because for the most part, I hadn't taught, like I mean, we exchanged
like texts and stuff, but as I had moved from Raleigh to Charlotte, I wasn't making trips as often,
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and then all of a sudden it's like, I come out on Facebook and then I'm like, I have to have this
face-to-face conversation with my friends that I used to be like really close to. And I believe I had,
I, that I recall, I had two face-to-face conversations. The first one did not go well. The second one
(33:44):
went fairly well, but then the person I talked to was like, actually, I don't know if I can support
the gay lifestyle. Like I always love you, but I can't support this. And I'm like, okay, and we haven't
talked since. Yeah, but you don't have a gay life. Right. I'm just like, I think there were more hung
(34:05):
up on the fact that I transged my gender and they're like, I've known you as this name for so long,
and I've known you as like, I don't know, this descriptor for so long. And so like the, I think the
people transitioning from male to female or female to male, so like the binary transitioning,
(34:30):
binary transgender folks are hard enough for people to kind of wrap their minds around.
And then if you throw in, hey, I don't subscribe to either of those things, you just kind of blow
their minds because they think of sexuality as like a light switch. It's either, it's either, you know,
gay or straight. It's either male or female. And then all of a sudden you're just like, no, it's not
(34:55):
actually a light switch. It's one of those like dimmer knobs. And you just, you can kind of turn it,
or it's like, or it's, it's like, hey, maybe, maybe it's like one of those clap-on lights that you can
just, you know, clap-on and it works. Clap-on. Exactly. Clap-on. I wanted. Clap-on. I wanted one of those so bad
(35:16):
in my life, but you know, that's okay. I have a Christmas present. Oh my mind for you now.
I don't know if they still sell those. Oh, I hope they do. But anyway, back to the, back to the point
at hands. My voice is getting a little tired, so I will let you go ahead and ask some more,
thought-provoking questions and just comments on everything I've said for right now.
(35:38):
Definitely. Well, first of all, you know, testimonies don't really go in a line. You know,
a lot of things that we have in our lives overlap. Right. And I think that you really are talking about
an experience that really does overlap. As kind of a question about earlier in time, would you say
(36:00):
that you really had a theology about marriage or against gay people or you were just kind of going
by what everybody else did? I mean, like, were you somebody who was going to go run up and talk
about the Bible about it or did you just assume it was something that was not biblical?
That's a great question because I don't have the recollection either way, which I'm assuming at
(36:28):
this point because it didn't strongly affect me so much that maybe I didn't have such concrete ideas.
I knew that at the time marriage was between a man and a woman. That was just how, quote, unquote,
normal life was. It was normal in the church. It was normal in secular society. And so I'm like,
(36:51):
okay, that's just that's that's what marriage is. I'm fortunate enough that my parents had a really
healthy relationship. They still do. They're still together. And so I got my, I guess, ideas about
marriage from them. And I'm just like, okay, well, when you get married, it was more of a trajectory.
It was like marriage wasn't the end all be all, but it was the stepping stone towards a life that I
(37:16):
really honestly didn't want to live. So I knew from a young age, I did not want kids. And I felt like
as soon as you get married, you have to have kids. That is that's what happens. Like, you know,
forget about the birds in the bees talk. You get married, you have kids, you live this suburban
lifestyle. And I just remember thinking at a young age, I was like, I don't want that for myself.
(37:41):
I couldn't tell you what I wanted instead, but I was like, that ain't it. Okay, that's interesting. And how did
that fit like as somebody who was so engaged in faith and church? And it's like, okay, they're telling
you that's going to be your future. How did that fit for you? Or how did you feel about that? I mean,
(38:07):
did it ever make you not really fit in and church or make you ever feel out of place? Towards the end of
my, like towards college, so like when I was in the Christian & Missionary Alliance, I was there
until I was in seventh grade. I didn't think about boys at that time, really. When I, when my parents
(38:27):
moved us to a different church, that was seventh grade two, we'll say 12th grade. I maybe sort of
thought about it like some of the, some of the kids. So we were, we were in segregated classes in
middle school. So the girls were all in one class, the boys were all in their class. We would go on
girls retreats and they would definitely talk about marriage and all, all like purity culture was
(38:49):
a big thing. That young. Oh, yes. Oh, that's where I, that's where I picked up. So that like eighth grade
is pretty much where I, where I picked up on purity culture. And then we moved on to, yeah, so I wasn't,
I still wasn't really interested in boys all that much. I was just like, okay, they're, they're there,
(39:12):
you know, like my friends maybe date some of them, but for the most part, I had a solid group of
girlfriends and I was like, okay, I mean, I'm all set. I don't need a boy in my life. As we got to
college, I definitely started feeling out of place like just in general, I was like, I'm not interested
in dating. And so that was like a real, that was like a big thing, I guess, at the time. So in crew,
(39:37):
we had formal dances. And I remember one of my friends being like, hey, you should go with this guy,
I'll set you up and I was like, okay, okay, I guess. And that ended up being my first and only boy
friends. And that did not last very long for all the reasons I've said. And from then, I was just,
(39:58):
I was just kind of like, okay, what do I do now? Especially when I am a young adult,
living on my own for the first time, going to my own church. So I was going to a, another
Baptist church different from my parents that was in Raleigh. And at the time, it was very like
(40:19):
the college ministry was all together. And then as I graduated, I moved up to the young adult class
and that's when I was like, oh, okay, this is Christian Mingle, IRL. So like the quote-unquote singles class
is where everybody got to to to go be paired up. And I was like, I guess half of me was like, the half
(40:39):
of me that wanted to fit in, the half of me that was still clinging on to the ideas of header
and normativity, which is basically like, oh, if you're a woman, you should want to be with a man.
And vice versa. So I was still clinging to those ideas. I'm like, yeah, maybe I'll find somebody
eligible here. But then the other half of me was just like, no, this is incredibly uncomfortable.
I don't like how they are basically throwing us into one space to pair us off. And even then, like,
(41:06):
there were, there were married couples in that class. So it wasn't a true singles ministry,
but it was very much like, oh, okay, yeah, they're going to pair us off like, like to quote you in your
book, they're going to pair us off like, no, it's art. Yeah. So as I grew up, I became an adult, yeah,
I definitely started to feel out of place about the whole marriage thing. And especially not wanting to
(41:31):
like do the the married with kids family life.
Would you say that I know like with myself and like listening to a lot of your story in some ways,
there are parts of our own stories that are kind of similar. They're similar for different reasons
at times. Some of them are the same, but some of them are different. And I know that in dealing with
(41:56):
the queer community overall, I would say that I kind of silently judged everybody. I might not have
overtly said anything. I never even got into the whole pronoun thing. That wasn't even a thing.
I was saying, yeah, please see all these years ago, the first time that anything ever really came up
(42:18):
for me was an HIV training when we were doing rapid testing. And we would ask people, what would you
like us to call you today? And the reason for that was not really because of gender identity, but
people used fake names. Or they might go and they might not use their actual name for fear of being
found out that they're getting tested. But I guess we could say, you know, I might not have
(42:42):
overtly said anything to anyone or had an opinion or been really obvious, but I might have
silently judged a lot of people. I probably, yeah, you know, not that she mentioned that. I probably
did too because it was that was like the evangelical calling card. It's just like, oh, you don't let
bygones be guygones. You don't mind your own business. You are vocal about something or you are
(43:08):
judging by neighbor. Yeah, you're just passively doing. Yeah. Hey, that would be a great podcast,
title judge. Hey, there you go. Well, we're gonna have to do that in the second half of this season.
Okay, but that being said, I mean, because that was that was my thing. Was that, you know, it's like
you might have not said anything to anybody's face or you might have done all the stuff on the
(43:30):
surface, but you better believe inside of you, you had an opinion, you just didn't really.
Or it's hate the sin love the center. Yeah, love the center that that whole mess. Yeah.
So you went through this whole period. You went through COVID. You've had all these realizations.
How did your family react when you came out? So they were surprisingly cool with it. Like I said,
(43:53):
my sister had come out first and she tested the waters like really tested the waters. And so at that
point, it was also my mom also says it wasn't really surprising when I came out because she's always like,
yeah, you were never interested in boys. And she was like, honestly, I thought you were a lesbian. And
I'm just like, no, everyone I've ever met. No, it's funny. My old co-workers at my old job,
(44:18):
like whenever we would go out somewhere because I didn't have a partner, they're like, oh, do you
have a partner like trying to figure out like who I was into like what my orientation was? I had
the pixie haircut. I dressed very androgynously. So like it wasn't really a surprise that I came out
as anything. It was only a surprise to me because I'm thinking on the best faker in the world. And I'm
(44:43):
just like, oh, of course I'm, you know, straight and female. Yeah. And it's like, no, you're just the world's
best master, okay? But yeah, my family took it really well. It's just I got a lot of backlash from my
friends. And it's really not surprising looking back because they were all part of that
(45:05):
evangelical lifestyle, the very hate the sin love the center, where queers a lifestyle. It's a choice.
It's something that you can repent from. It's something that's a sin. And so, you know, in hindsight,
looking back, of course, it's not surprising, but you always hope there's that little seed of hope
whenever a queer Christian comes out to their friends, especially if they're conservative,
(45:30):
is that the friend will choose love. They'll choose you over their theology. And a lot of times
that doesn't happen. Right. It's not a thing. Yeah. It's, and it's very difficult to experience, but
ideologies often win. Yeah. In those situations. So, how did you become a minister? I say that like,
(45:56):
I don't know the answer. Right. Like you ordained me. So I actually will, so I know. So I need to
back up all the way to 2018 for this. So my whole reason for leaving Raleigh to come to Charlotte was
for a job, which I, which I still have. I had been looking for another writing position. And I had
(46:19):
interviewed at this one place. I remember having to like take a day off to go to the interview in person
because it was in Charlotte. And I lived in Raleigh. So I took the day off, went in for the interview, and
I remember seeing Nick there because spoiler alert, I got the job and Nik was working there and is
(46:39):
still working there. But at the time we were in the office, Nik was there with all of their
Funko pops and their cubicle. But the one thing that stood out to me is that Nik had a black ring
on their middle finger, which if any of you are going to read the ministering to LGBT book that
Apostle Leanne has written, it explains that that is yes, out soon. It's really good. I've read it.
(47:05):
No spoilers, but there is a passage in there that tells you what some of these
signs of finding quote unquote, "aces in the wild" that exist. And so one of them is you wear a black
ring on, I believe it's your right, your right hand, the middle finger of your right hand. And so I saw
(47:26):
that and I was like, hmm, I wonder. And then I got the job. I started working at the company.
We had a buddy system, so Nik was basically helping me learn the ropes, introducing me to the entire
group. I just remember I was like, Nik is like the coolest person ever and I got like a real like,
I would call it a friendship crush, honestly, because like the way that I attached myself to them
(47:51):
was really quick. Like we became besties within a week and I was like, this doesn't usually happen.
But it happened. And so I remember going to their house one time and I was like, oh,
you have an ace pride flag in your apartment. I know what that is. And they were really surprised
that I knew what it was. And I was like, hey, I'm asexual. Woohoo. Yeah. So we got to bond over that.
(48:18):
And then I told them, yeah, like I figured you were asexual from, you know, that ring, but I just
wanted to make sure we got really, really close. We went to actually I blame, I think and I blame Nik
because my entire community revolves around them. So they introduced me to a community group,
which I got really involved with. Eventually, became a leader for before I had to step down
(48:41):
for just life reasons. And then obviously Nik introduced me to sanctuary. They even before they
started going to sanctuary, they had done the whole rigmaru of like figuring out who they were,
figuring out that they could be queer and a Christian. They were going to a queer affirming church.
(49:02):
I at this time was still very like still evangelical going to a big mega church in Charlotte. And then
I was like, oh, it's too far away from me. Let me try the one that's across the street from me,
which ended up being a church plant from my parents church in Kerry of all places. I was like, oh,
okay, I know a small world. And so I reconnected with all like some of my old church friends and some
(49:26):
new ones as well. And that was my community for a while. And then COVID hit. And that all stopped.
And I basically, I never went back to that church again because that's also about the time I came
out. And I was like, yeah, the they're not going to be accepting of me. And in fact, somebody from the
person who ended up coming into my Instagram dns and telling me off was from that church. And so
(49:51):
I was like, all right. So I probably won't be welcome back there. Probably. Yeah, probably not. But
before that, when we were still like pre-COVID, Nik had invited me to their church to MCC. I was
hesitant to go at first because this is still a little evangelical me. I was just like, oh, they're
backsliders. Like they don't believe in in Jesus. They're like, they believe a false gospel or whatever.
(50:15):
But I went and I was just like, okay, maybe this wasn't that bad. And it sort of opens my mind to
the possibility that, hey, you can be a queer and Christian. You can be connected to God and embracing
your queer identity at the same time. And so eventually after COVID hit, after I was tired of watching
(50:40):
my pastor talk on on Facebook for like, you know, the fifth month in a row, I was just like, I want
community again. And so I took Nick up on their offer to go to Bible study at their apartment. And
so I was like, Oh, okay, like, let's try this. And I went and it was like, there were a handful of
(51:01):
people there, but I remember getting prayed for and like really feeling the spirit move in my life.
Like, what? Lee Ann, I think you had given me like a word of wisdom or a word of knowledge,
like inadvertently. And I was just like, Oh, shoot, this is like the real deal. And I remember
(51:21):
being so profoundly affected by that. That I was like, Okay, I want to come back here. And so I just
kept coming back. And then eventually they're like, Hey, hey, we think you're a teacher. Hey,
we should put you on the leadership team. And I'm like, Oh, hold up, hold up. What? Hold up. What?
And I kept being like, No, I was content with just sitting in the pews, taking notes on every sermon
(51:43):
that I would never read again. You know, I'm just like, just let me let me be in a casual observer.
Don't make me a leader. You know, and Nick, Nik went into this in their testimony about how the people
who perpetuate church hurt our leaders ministers for the most part. And so I was like, I don't want to
(52:04):
perpetuate that cycle of abuse. And I also am like, I am still pretty new to this faith that I've
discovered for myself. Like, what if I get stuff wrong, especially if I'm going to be this
in this teacher position where you got to be like really knowledgeable about theology and stuff.
And I was like, I don't know a whole lot, but by the grace of God, I am somehow interested in all
(52:30):
the subjects I never liked in school. Somehow as an adult, in seminary, there are a lot more enjoyable.
Look at God. Look at God being like, Hey, there's a there's a $10 history textbook at the bookstore.
You should get that for a sermon purposes. I was like, Okay, so
you know, look, I didn't like school until I was in college. Yeah, I mean, I always was a really good
(52:55):
student. It was just so stressful because I'm a perfectionist. That's like, Oh, I mean, I was in okay
student, but I didn't really like the subjects there. And that's I very much believe it's the way
that they were taught. I think that we were kind of taught and I can bear about when. Oh, yeah.
I'm going to take a sip of my water, say hydrated. Yeah, hydrated. Yeah, that's actually on the water bottle
(53:22):
that I'm drinking. Yes. So while you're taking your sip, we're actually, you didn't know what you were
going to talk about. We're just about out of time. Okay, cool. And given you told your story and you
kind of went from very early and you kind of took yourself pretty much to now where you're a minister
and you know who you are. And the most part, you know, you're living life for the most part. What would
(53:45):
you like to leave our listeners with as a final thought from your journey? I guess be flexible
because I look back and I like, I don't really think I had any concrete plans. I did not know what,
(54:06):
like if somebody asked me to create a five-year plan for my life in school, I was like, I don't know
what you want from me. It was like, I never, I mean, I wanted to be an author and I sort of am. Really?
Yeah, I mean, because I've always loved writing. So it made sense. And ironically enough, I
(54:26):
went to school to be an engineer because it was part, hey, you need to get a good job right out of
college. Another part, hey, my parents were like kind of kind of nudging me like, hey, you're really,
really good at like the math and science and stuff. You should go into engineering, like your dad's
an engineer, like a lot of your great uncles or engineers, you should do that. And I was like, sure.
(54:47):
And then I get countered physics and I was like, oh, no, no, we're going back to back to the drawing
board. We're going back to writing. And so yeah, I think the moral of the story is to like, as much as
it sucks, as much as it you might want to have your own plans for your life. It's like ultimately,
God is going to put you somewhere where you're going to carry out his will because like, you know,
(55:11):
I wanted to be an engineer. I ended up being in English. And if I hadn't changed my major,
I would not be here today. If I hadn't moved to Charlotte from Raleigh, if I hadn't left my comfort zone
being at home, I would never have met Nik. I would have never been involved in sanctuary. I would
never have been a minister. So yeah, just be flexible. I say with Gritted Teeth knowing that God is
(55:38):
going to force me to be more flexible. Of course, if you brought it up, yeah, there's that. And I guess
don't be afraid to like lean on your community. Just community is very important.
Absolutely. Well, I thank you for coming on here and sharing your story with everybody.
(56:01):
Yeah, thanks for that. We talk. How can how can everybody get in contact with you if they would like to?
Yeah, like I said, there is a contact forum on my website. So again, it's beloved-not-broken.com.
There is a it's under questions, but feel free to just like reach out and say, hey,
I also have my social media. So you can find me on TikTok. You can find me on Tumblr. I am most
(56:28):
active on Tumblr. You can also find me on X, but I maybe check that once every two months. So the
best way to get in contact with me is either through the website or through Tumblr.
Well, very good. And I thank you for being on and you know that she'll be back. Well, have you back
even before the season's out? Cool. We'll work all that out. And I thank all of you for listening
(56:51):
today. And if you would like a resource while you're waiting for ministering to LGBTQ and those
who love them to come out, that is an update from the original book that I did many years ago,
about 10 years ago. I think it is now 10, 11 years ago. And it very much needed a refresher,
needed some new thoughts, needed some new ideas. So I've been spending time working on that.
(57:14):
You can get how from a foundation answering what and why we believe that's how from a foundation,
answering what and why we believe. Now, this is actually a little book that we give out to visitors
at sanctuary. So if you want to copy and you don't want to order it, you can come visit us. Yeah.
But if you are kind of far away or not able to visit, it is available, very, very inexpensive on Amazon
(57:39):
.com and any profit that we receive from it, any royalty, we do donate to sanctuary. So how from a
foundation is actually basically answering questions based on our statement of faith, why we believe
what we do, supplementing scriptures and a little bit of assessment and discussion about why. And so
(58:00):
that little book is a nice little resource about affirming church. So if you're interested in that
while you wait for the release of the other book, check that out. Look me up, Dr. Lee Ann B.
Marino on Amazon.com or wherever books are sold and all my titles will come up both paperback
and ebook available, something for everyone. We will have hard cover later this year. Look that up,
(58:23):
check me out today. Also connect with me across social media @Kingdompowernow. I am on Facebook,
Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, etc. @Kingdompowernow. I would love to hear from you. Let's have that
conversation. Let's learn what you'd like to hear on this program, what you think, what you like,
(58:44):
what you don't like, reach out once again, @Kingdompowernow and let's talk. Also check out my
patheos column, which is a leader guide. It is not just four leaders, but anybody who's interested in
leadership. So you want to learn about leadership, you want to learn more about leadership, you just
want to learn general principles of it, you are a leader. Check out leadership on fire at patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire.
(59:10):
That's patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire. Check that out today. And one of the nice things is you can
sign up just for my column if you don't want everybody else's. So go ahead. New columns are released
every Wednesday. Also, if you would like to learn more about the world of counterculture Christianity,
feel free to visit my website at Kingdompowernow.org. That's kingdompowernow.org. If you are looking for
(59:35):
seminary that is entirely affordable because it is donation based. And that includes most of your
books, not all but most. And when you do have to cover your own books, they are low cost. Check out
Apostolic Covenant Theological Seminary, Acts for Short at Acts176.org. That's Acts176.org. And if
you're in the Charlotte, North Carolina area and you are looking for your found family because we
(59:59):
know that family means nobody gets left behind. Check out the work of sanctuary at
welcomeinthisplace.org. That's welcomeinthisplace.org. And if you have a question that's not answered on the
website, feel free to reach out to us and we will be more than happy to get back to you. And this is
Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you in closing that knowing who we are brings us closer to God.
(01:00:22):
And we serve God best when we understand who we are. So as minister Reep said, flexibility is key.
Until next time, be blessed.
Thank you for joining us on the Kingdom Now podcast today. I pray it is proven to be a blessing
(01:00:44):
in your life. To learn more about this work, ask a question, submit feedback, advertise with us,
be a guest, or donate to support this work. As our podcast is sponsored by listeners like you,
visit my website which contains essential information, projects and looks for other points
(01:01:06):
of contact around the web at kingdompowernow.org. Also, if you are in our area and would like to visit
sanctuary international fellowship tabernacle, visit welcomeinthisplace.org.
Until next time, this is Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you that the Kingdom of God
(01:01:28):
is within you. And that means the Kingdom is now.
Are you called to ministry but not sure where to start?
(00:04):
Apostolic Covenant theological seminary, is here for you.
Not your average seminary.
Acts is a seminary experience designed for leadership in our modern world.
Merge ancient faith with modern times, with online classes designed to inspire a love of scripture,
educate in ministry, form, and protocol, and prepare you to serve God and God's people today.
(00:30):
Tuition is offering based, and most books are included in your monthly tuition payment.
Ready to enroll? Visit acts176.org.
Apostolic Covenant Theological Seminary, the Revolution starts here.
Welcome to Kingdom Now, the podcast featuring Faith with an Edge,
(00:55):
as we celebrate the Kingdom of God within you.
I am your host, Dr. Lee Ann Marino, apostle, author,
podcaster, professor, and theologian, and founder of Spitfire Apostolic Ministries
and all the works that go along with it.
I am excited to share this program with you,
as we explore the ins and outs of counter-culture Christianity,
(01:18):
present as you live out the Kingdom of God in your everyday life.
Want to learn more? Visit my website at www.kingdompowernow.org
And now, our program, which features a variety of formats here, just for you.
Interviews on a variety of relevant topics, teaching and preaching proclaimed everywhere
(01:39):
from my North Carolina studio to sanctuary and beyond.
And powerful insights here for now as we turn the world upside down everywhere we go.
[Applause]
Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, happy whatever time update is,
(02:02):
wherever you are, and to our listeners in... name a Country.
Mexico.
Two our listeners in Mexico and all of the other Spanish-speaking countries,
we say, what do the Hola? I was going to say, what do they say?
[Laughter]
Great start.
Okay, this is a great start.
(02:22):
We say, Hola, okay, I should have known that.
Look, I never studied Spanish, so that's still not an excuse.
We hope that whatever time update is when you are listening that you are having a good one.
And I welcome you to this edition of the Kingdom Now podcast,
and I am your host, Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino here as the Spitfire,
serving as the voice of counter-culture Christianity,
where we feature the theme of faith with an edge.
(02:44):
And if you would like to learn more about the World of Counter-Culture Christianity,
feel free to visit my website at kingdompowernow.org.
Testimonies are very important.
They remind us of where we come from, and at the same time they offer hope,
because they let everybody know that what God has done for us he can do for them.
And today, my guest is actually a returning guest who, you know, very frequently on this podcast,
(03:10):
is minister Charlie Reep, who is our teacher at sanctuary International Fellowship Tabernacle,
and is going to give us their story of how they caught where they are today by God's grace.
And so, minister Charlie, tell everybody a little bit about yourself as an introduction.
(03:30):
Well, hey, I'm minister Charlie, they/them pronoun user, like
possibly an already said, I'm the minister of, I think my official title is minister of education.
As sanctuary, which is very, very fun and official sounding.
Yeah, run for office with that.
No, thank you.
Hard pass, it was already, it was already a stretch to get me a ministry.
(03:56):
Here we are. And here we are. I never thought I would be a minister, but here we are.
And I was laughing at something Nik said in their testimony of like, oh, I never thought I would go
back to school, but here I am back in seminary. It happens. It does happen. I am having fun with it.
(04:18):
Oh, I really enjoy learning. So this is right at my alley. I guess what else to introduce me?
I have a website. Yeah, I've got a blog/website. It started out as,
and I'll probably go into more detail through my testimony, but it started out as like a personal diary
that I just put online because that's what you do as a young millennial.
(04:42):
And I basically was going through the process of deconstructing my faith, but I wanted to,
instead of like, de-convert from Christianity altogether, my faith was really important to me still.
And so I was like, let me see if I can process through some of the stuff that doesn't really work.
And come to a better understanding of who God is. And so I documented that process on
(05:05):
Tumblr of all places. And it eventually turned into, yeah, it eventually turned into
enough of a resource that, you know, people would come ask me questions about things. And I'm like,
hey man, I'm just figuring stuff out myself, but this is where I think I'm going with it, or
(05:26):
I would put in a lot of resources like LGBTQ, and eventually got to the point where
I couldn't organize all my stuff on Tumblr very well. So I was like, let me just put it on WordPress.
What do you mean? I have a domain now. Okay, this is fine. So if you want to go check out my
basically library of resources for queer questioning and deconstructing traditions,
(05:51):
it is beloved-not-broken.com. So beloved-not-broken.com. The one without dashes was already taken. So
we have dashes. Well, I like dashes. I think it gives it character.
I think it's just easy to read. It is. No, it's a lot easier to read than all these
(06:18):
websites where all the words are run together, saying that as somebody whose websites are all run
together-but as at least it makes sense. You're so excited. Well, I worked on that, and I also got some of my
domains when we were still able to have variety. Right. It's a lot harder now to find them because a lot
of people already have taken stuff as you fully well experienced, but yeah, I think it makes it very
(06:41):
clear and very easy to read. And I will also run this up the flag poll that you have a very, very
well-organized and easy to read site. I appreciate it. I'm pleasing to the eye, and I absolutely
recommend that our listeners check it out. I recommend it on my pathos column and in different places.
(07:03):
And so I think it's absolutely worth checking out. It's got a lot of wonderful resources on it.
I appreciate it. And if I could like, you know, just do a shameless plug here for a minute. If you go
to the website, you- it's basically aimed at queer questioning and deconstructing Christians.
The first thing you'll find on there, it's like, hey, I know what it's like to be in your shoes,
(07:25):
start with the resources page, and it'll basically take you to all the answers you need. If you keep
scrolling, you'll get to popular topics where I blog a lot about mental health, boundaries,
and injustice. I also have a search bar if you want to search for something else. I've written,
I think it's like 55 posts I've published so far. I have finally outpaced the number of drafts
(07:50):
that I've published versus drafts, which is fine, or which is wonderful. I have a thing about
spiritual warfare on there and Christian nationalism. Other helpful resources I've organized,
my sermon and podcast episodes that I've been on. So all the kingdom now ones are
located on that page. I've done Sunday school lessons. I have dirty commentaries for all the geeks
(08:13):
out there. And then at the very bottom is a resource for allies. It's like if you want to be an ally,
here's what you need to know so you can fully support the LGBTQ community. It opens at a PDF,
it's nine pages, free to download. It's got some definitions, common questions, links to some helpful
(08:35):
stuff. So yeah, I highly recommend checking that out. Also, there's a place to contact me. There's
I think a form that like you can submit directly to my website and my social media is on there.
Wonderful. So that like we say is a real resource. Very easy to use to figure out and so definitely
go on there. Beloved-not-broken.com. So we know this is a testimony episode. And I think that
(09:05):
they're often difficult to do because we always think no one wants to hear about us.
But given the site that you run and that you so eloquently have stated what you do and why
you do what you do, we want to know about you. And I'm sure that our listeners would like to know more
about you too, as well as everybody who's going to listen once this is up for the first time. So
(09:28):
I'm going to take a step back. I'll interject questions as they kind of come along.
Okay, tell us a story start from wherever you feel comfortable in your life beginning.
So I'd like to joke that I have queso brain which is my which as as you so eloquently stated,
(09:51):
my brain is just full of trivia and so I don't remember a lot of things that other people. Yeah,
that other people would find important like I don't have a lot of fun childhood stories that come
up to that come to mind right now. But I mean, I guess if this is a testimony, I'll start with getting
saved as a young kid. So I was very involved in church growing up. My parents were
(10:15):
evangelical. We went to a Christian and missionary alliance church in a predominantly white suburb.
And so it was I feel like it was a different flavor of what is it? C&MA than it usually would be.
But I mean, I was really plugged in. I was part of AWANA from like, there's pictures of me being in
(10:42):
cubbies. I don't remember being in cubbies, which is like for the for the tiny tots. And then
all the way up to I believe high school, maybe middle school or high school. I even have one of the
awards called the Timothy award that I still display in my office that has do not let people
look down on you because you're a young Bible verse. I do not remember the references, but all this just
(11:06):
came up. Yeah, all this to say that I really enjoyed church growing up. I was really plugged in as a kid.
And so it's only fitting that from what I recall, I got saved when I was in Sparks,
so like the elementary school level. I want to say I was seven years old because seven's a good
number, right? And so I, yeah, I got exactly. So I got saved at seven. And I would periodically like
(11:38):
repeat the sinner's prayer throughout my life at like bedtime or something, just to make sure it's stuck.
I don't I guess I was like terrified of going to hell or something like that. Really don't remember
being that existential, that young, but I definitely was a more serious introspective kid. So I'm like,
I wouldn't put it past me to have those kind of thoughts. And then I stayed evangelical for
(12:04):
up through college, actually. I went after we went to that Christian and missionary alliance church,
we went to an independent Baptist church and then I went to college and then I basically living
(12:24):
on college campuses had a very limited choice in where I went to church. So sometimes I would get
rides with friends to go to one of the mega church church plants in the area. Sometimes I would go
to ones that were on campus and I eventually found one that my parents knew the leaders of that
(12:47):
church from like way back when I think those church leaders were actually influential in getting
my parents saved when they were in college. Oh wow. Yeah. So like basically church runs real deep.
I mean, going back to the reason we were part of that original church, the Christian and missionary
alliance church was because I think my parents knew a lot of people from there, from their
(13:12):
either college days or from when they first got saved. And so they made friends with a lot of,
I guess the adults there. And so by proxy, all of us kids became friends. And so I had a really good
friend group through church that way. Let's see, moving on. College. Sounds like you guys kind of
(13:34):
lived around church. Oh, absolutely. I would say that of all my siblings, I have two younger siblings,
I was definitely the most passionate about church couldn't really tell you why. I mean, I guess in
hindsight, it's probably the Holy Spirit moving me in that direction. But I was always just like, yeah,
(13:56):
church is more than like a building. It's it became my community. Even though I had friends like
through public school and I was in public school my entire life, I felt like church was my home.
And so when I got to college, I did go through like a mini crisis of faith because
(14:18):
it's college, you're exposed to a lot of different ideas, you're exposed to a lot of different people.
And it was the first time really that I wasn't like quote unquote forced to go to church. I could
decide to sleep in on Sundays if I wanted to. Eventually I got to the point where I was like, yeah,
I'd rather sleep in. I still participated in Bible studies through it used to be called campus
(14:38):
crusade for Christ. They have rebranded to get away from the horrible history of the Middle Ages
and the crusades at the time. And so now I agree. Yep. And so now it's just cru. See are you?
So that was like the, yeah, so that was the big deal Christian youth organization at the school I
went to. And so that's where my entire friend group basically ended up being from. And then
(15:04):
that was also the time period where I learned that I was asexual and part of, well, not necessarily
part of the queer community, but I, but that's like the beginnings of it. So in college when I'm
sort of redefining my, my faith identity is also when I was introduced the idea that I might not be
(15:29):
straight. So that was a fun time. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. What brought you to that? So I, so did you know
that's a story for queer people all by itself. Right. I don't honestly, I really don't recall
what specifically brought me to that place. I just remember that so being essentially at the time
(15:58):
female, although now I identify as non-binary, the consensus was that when you are a young Christian
woman that you go off to college to get your MRS degree, which means you go off to college to get
married. It doesn't matter what you're studying, you just, you go to college to find a husband. It is
true in, like if it's true in public schools and I went to the biggest public university in North
(16:23):
Carolina, then it's got to be true, it's got to be true in like the, the tiny colleges too. So that was
just a surprise. Ah ok, the Mrs. Degree. Oh, okay. Yeah. I was like, I thought maybe that stood for
something that that was just too obvious that it's just Mrs. as Ms. No, it's, it's about, yeah, it's,
(16:43):
you just, basically you get hitched in college. It's like the ring by spring kind of, kind of culture.
So that's what I was surrounded with. And of course, it's also the South, the Bible belt. So you got
all of that Christian influence despite being at a very secular school, which I found fascinating.
So I had always, I don't know, I, I guess in middle schools the first time I was introduced to
(17:09):
dating and I was like, we're too young to be dating. Like, you know, I'm 13 years old having this
thought, like, why are you asking me out? We're too young to be dating our parents would have to drive
us places. And so I was like, I'll just wait, I'll just wait till college to start dating and then
it's college. And I'm like, Oh, I should, I should be, I should be dating, right? And I just wasn't
(17:30):
really interested in it. Like, I guess I had ideas of, I would have quote, quote, romantic ideas of,
like, being married to a man. But I was like, it's, it just doesn't really, it doesn't seem that
appealing in practice. So my dating life was basically non-existent. There were a couple of,
(17:51):
of guys who ended up liking me and I just wasn't really, I just wasn't really feeling it. I was like,
I'd rather just be friends with you or, you know, I'd rather just kind of do my own thing. And so,
I guess about that time, I had gotten into Tumblr for the first time because I was really into,
(18:13):
I don't remember how I got even got on Tumblr, but I was basically on Tumblr for those of you who
are familiar with Tumblr culture. I was on Tumblr when SuWooLock was a big thing. So that was
the three top shows among the fandom community were Supernatural, Doctor Who and BBC Sherlock. And so,
(18:33):
I was entrenched in that culture. You were in heaven. Yes, I was. And then oddly enough, I decided,
oh no, writing fanfiction, reading fanfiction, being in fandom culture is like,
doletary. And I can't do that because I'm a Christian and I deleted my Tumblr and I'm really sad about it.
(18:58):
So, went through that whole phase where I was like, oh, I need to be a good Christian girl and just,
you know, I guess try out the dating scene and I didn't like it. I was like, no, no, this is not for me.
I had like, I guess a bad physical reaction to it. I was like, oh, I was really stressed out
(19:19):
being in this relationship. And I was like, why is that? And so around the time, I was, I guess,
exploring Tumblr, asexuality was like still relatively a new thing. And I'd come across the term and I
was like, huh, this fits. Like the way that I understood asexuality at the time was that I was
(19:41):
an interested in any sort of relationship. That is not what asexuality means asexuality means,
you experience a lack of sexual attraction towards a particular person. But at the time, I was like,
oh, you know, this sounds just like me. And I think as I went along, I eventually attached to the
label of demisexual, which is the official definition is being able to experience sexual attraction
(20:08):
only if a strong bond is formed. And so being Christian, I was like, oh, yeah, like that's
what everybody experiences, right? No, spoiler alert. No, that's not a common experience.
So I tried to take my label to be fair, I had it first. This was like 2013.
(20:29):
Okay, then yeah, you did have it first. Okay. Yes. So now you can have it and you can keep it. But
thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. And ironically enough, that's when I also learned about the term
erromantic. And I was like, there's no way that I'm aromantic. I experienced crushes. And I was
looking, looking back, like, oh, if only I knew. But so at the time, I just attached myself to the
(20:54):
asexual label. And I was like, okay, so this is who I am. I ended up telling my mom about it. She
didn't quite understand it. But I mean, that's fine. I didn't really come public with that knowledge
to really anyone else. It's like, if I met somebody else who was asexual, then I'd be like, oh, yeah,
that's me too, but I wasn't out about it if that made sense. So then flash forward to the pandemic
(21:20):
of all places. And, you know, we are locked up in our own spaces with all this time in the world to
think about things. And so that's when I revisit my identity. And I'm like, okay, asexual definitely
describes me. But then all of a sudden, I was like, oh, so these crushes I was experiencing weren't
(21:50):
really crushes at all. It was intense feelings, sure, but intense feelings doesn't necessarily mean
you were romantically attracted to somebody. And as I was going through, I was like, oh,
I'm not actually romantically attracted to anyone. And so that's when I learned about the aromantic
label. And I started attaching that to myself. No, sorry, I'm getting my labels mixed up. I came out as
(22:13):
aromatic in 2019, I believe. So it was before the pandemic. Actually, let me look at my story. I have
my story over on beloved, not broken. And so, yeah, wanted to confirm. So 2013 during college, I started
using asexual describe my lack of interest in dating and let alone sex. 2019, when I moved to Charlotte,
(22:36):
and I will come back to that point in my life a little bit later, I realized I'm aromatic. And I also come
out to my sister who came out to me and yes, that was a fun time. And we both got to tell our parents
within the span of a year that, hey, two of your kids are queer, have fun. And this is right before lockdown.
(23:00):
So yeah, oh, yeah, oh, and just, oh, just just wait, just wait. So after all that, I come out as aromatic
in 2019, 2020 during lockdown. I had all the time in the world to really examine my thoughts. And I
could no longer run from the fact that I was like, huh, the label, tomboy, isn't just a passing trend.
(23:28):
I genuinely do not identify myself as female or woman or whatever. And so 2020 is when I came out
finally, because there are times in my journal entries where I'm like, oh, I think I'm this,
and then promptly forgot about it for six months. And then I'm like, oh, I'm this. Oh, wait,
I already said the six months ago. Oops. So finally, except the fact that, hey, I'm non-binary and
(23:55):
specifically agender, because I don't, I don't feel like I'm either like binary male or binary female.
I'm just kind of like, eh, gender, what's that? So that's the queer, that's the queer coming out story
in a nutshell. Interesting. Yeah. So when you first had this realization, because you pretty
(24:24):
much set up your background, you were very immersed in church. You were obsessed with church.
It was a very, very big narration for your entire life. And it wasn't just a narration for you.
It sounds like it was one for your whole family. Absolutely. How did you react to all these realizations?
(24:45):
So like I said, with the asexual thing, I just kind of assumed it was like, oh, it's some, it's,
I didn't consider it part of the queer identity. I did not consider myself part of the LGBTQ community.
And it would remain that way for another five years. So I'm just like, oh, this is just a fun
quirk about me. It's like, it's a, it's a fun term that explains why I don't like something,
(25:08):
but it's also like, it fit my narration at the time of like, hey, Paul says you should be
celibate. You should be, you know, single till you get married, basically. You shouldn't necessarily
try to force anything. And so I was like, all right, fine, possible. Cool. I can, I can get behind
(25:29):
the singleness thing. And I guess it was really in 2019, after my sister came out to me,
I had to get real cool with other parts of the LGBTQ community. Because up to that point,
I was like, I would pretty much describe myself as like, a closet homophobic. I wasn't
(25:53):
as out about it. In high school, I definitely shared stuff that was like, oh, you know,
Miss South Carolina or Miss California or something had said something about, I believe,
marriage is between a man and a woman. I remember sharing that on Facebook. And I was like, yeah,
that's my stance. And now I'm just like, that's pretty much all I did. I, you know, I hadn't met any
(26:19):
outqueer people in high school. And so I just kind of was like, I, you know, I just tried to make
friends with everybody, I guess. And it wasn't really my scene too. I was a band kid. So like, I was around
all the dweebs. And if there were, there weren't any like openly queer kids in band at the time. I
(26:47):
guess it was also an era where, you know, it was 2008, 2009, where you didn't really see that a lot.
So I'm pretty sure, you know, however many percentage of people fall in the queer spectrum. It's like
somebody in that room. I mean, I was a queer person in that room. So it's like, multiple of us were
(27:11):
probably somewhere on the LGBTQ spectrum, but we just weren't vocal about it. So up through college,
I wasn't really vocal against it. I do remember meeting a friend who, like later identified his
(27:32):
queer. And I was like, Oh, okay, cool. I mean, like, yeah, you need Jesus, but like, so does everybody who
doesn't know God anyway. So like, I guess I remember using their pronouns and using their shows and name,
but like that's, I think as far as it went, which now that I think about it, I guess, despite being,
(27:53):
you know, despite the views that I had, I was like, Oh, I was at least respectful. So I'm like, okay,
good on you, little, little chuck. Not to pet myself on the back, but I often look back at the times that I
did hold those views that I did hold the Southern Baptist like opinions about queer people and
(28:14):
was like, Oh, God, please don't tell me I was that bad off. That's a story for another day, though.
I forgot where I was going with this. Oh, yes, how I got to that point. Yeah. So I had to be real
cool with the queer community, all of a sudden when my sister came out to me. And then I had a
mini crisis too because when I realized I'm aromatic, I'm like, Oh, okay, yeah, no, this isn't normal.
(28:37):
Like, like, okay, yeah, Christians can be asexual in theory because we're told to be celibate. And
I'm like, Okay, fine, asexual, celibate, whatever. But romance is in everything. Romance is
deeply entrenched in church. It is deeply entrenched. It's deeply entrenched in the American dream in
(29:02):
secular society. And I'm just like, Oh, I don't speak that language. Oh, there's something real
different about me. So it was a process. I think I know I came out to Nik when I realized it because
we had actually been talking about side note, Nik and I first met on the job when I moved to Charlotte
(29:25):
in 2018. And Nik is how I found out about sanctuary and is pretty much the reason why I'm also
cool with queer stuff now because they were the one who introduced me to like non-binary and
eventually caused me to come out and really reflect on myself. And I can talk about that later if you
want. But in the meantime, yeah, but in the meantime, Nik was like the first person I think I told I was
(29:48):
aromatic. I think I told my mom about it. I told a few other people about it, but my coming out didn't
really happen until 2020. So like, I think it was November 2020 after I realized, Oh, shoot, okay,
I'm non-binary. And then I was like, I want to go by a different name, which I didn't think I ever would.
(30:11):
Which I'm rambling there is not a whole lot of organization of this story. It's just kind of coming out.
But the story behind my name is that my parents were originally going to name me Charlie when I was
born because they didn't know what like what sex I was as a kid before I was born. They were like,
Oh, we'll use this name if it's a girl and this name if it's if it's a boy. I ended up like, you know,
(30:37):
I ended up coming out the womb and was like, Oh, it's a girl. Okay. And so they're like, All right,
we'll use this name. And I think my mom like 10 or 12 years later was like, Yeah, you know, we would have,
if we would have named you Charlie, if if you were born a boy. And I was and I was inwardly thinking like,
Why couldn't you have named me that if I was a girl? That's a cool name. And I just kind of kept that name in
(30:58):
the back of my head forever until 2020 comes along. And I'm like, Hmm, what if we try out a different name
because we're experimenting with stuff. And so I tried the new name and I was like, Oh, shoot, I really,
really like being called Charlie. Oh, dear. And so it just kind of escalated from that point. I remember
(31:25):
telling I told you guys you guys were probably the first people to call me Charlie because I had visited
sanctuary literally the week before I decided to change my name. And then I remember what walking
into Bible study, y'all both y'all both shouted like, Hey, Charlie, nice to see you and I about cried.
Because I was like, this is sweet. I told my other community leader, I broke down into
(31:51):
house crying. I was like, Chris, I can't do this. And he was, he gave me a lot of insight. He was very
supportive. And you know, I told him about my feelings about my sister coming out and stuff like that.
Eventually I did find a therapist who is LGBTQ affirming and helped me process a lot of that stuff out.
(32:13):
And then I made an Instagram post about it in November. I think around my birthday, I was like, Hey,
I'm turning this age. It's about time I introduced myself as a new, you know, new name or whatever.
And the reception was really positive overall. There were a couple of people from the church
side have been going to before quarantine, the husband of one of the young women that I was friends
(32:39):
with decided to come in my my Instagram DMs and like, basically lament how I was so far from God
now because I made this decision and I'm just like, okay, all right. If I was just taken a back bite
because I was like, did you, what? My other poster about Jesus, but okay, okay, okay, sir. We've never
(33:01):
really had a conversation, but okay, it was a lot more challenging when I came out in person to
my friends from back home because for the most part, I hadn't taught, like I mean, we exchanged
like texts and stuff, but as I had moved from Raleigh to Charlotte, I wasn't making trips as often,
(33:22):
and then all of a sudden it's like, I come out on Facebook and then I'm like, I have to have this
face-to-face conversation with my friends that I used to be like really close to. And I believe I had,
I, that I recall, I had two face-to-face conversations. The first one did not go well. The second one
(33:44):
went fairly well, but then the person I talked to was like, actually, I don't know if I can support
the gay lifestyle. Like I always love you, but I can't support this. And I'm like, okay, and we haven't
talked since. Yeah, but you don't have a gay life. Right. I'm just like, I think there were more hung
(34:05):
up on the fact that I transged my gender and they're like, I've known you as this name for so long,
and I've known you as like, I don't know, this descriptor for so long. And so like the, I think the
people transitioning from male to female or female to male, so like the binary transitioning,
(34:30):
binary transgender folks are hard enough for people to kind of wrap their minds around.
And then if you throw in, hey, I don't subscribe to either of those things, you just kind of blow
their minds because they think of sexuality as like a light switch. It's either, it's either, you know,
gay or straight. It's either male or female. And then all of a sudden you're just like, no, it's not
(34:55):
actually a light switch. It's one of those like dimmer knobs. And you just, you can kind of turn it,
or it's like, or it's, it's like, hey, maybe, maybe it's like one of those clap-on lights that you can
just, you know, clap-on and it works. Clap-on. Exactly. Clap-on. I wanted. Clap-on. I wanted one of those so bad
(35:16):
in my life, but you know, that's okay. I have a Christmas present. Oh my mind for you now.
I don't know if they still sell those. Oh, I hope they do. But anyway, back to the, back to the point
at hands. My voice is getting a little tired, so I will let you go ahead and ask some more,
thought-provoking questions and just comments on everything I've said for right now.
(35:38):
Definitely. Well, first of all, you know, testimonies don't really go in a line. You know,
a lot of things that we have in our lives overlap. Right. And I think that you really are talking about
an experience that really does overlap. As kind of a question about earlier in time, would you say
(36:00):
that you really had a theology about marriage or against gay people or you were just kind of going
by what everybody else did? I mean, like, were you somebody who was going to go run up and talk
about the Bible about it or did you just assume it was something that was not biblical?
That's a great question because I don't have the recollection either way, which I'm assuming at
(36:28):
this point because it didn't strongly affect me so much that maybe I didn't have such concrete ideas.
I knew that at the time marriage was between a man and a woman. That was just how, quote, unquote,
normal life was. It was normal in the church. It was normal in secular society. And so I'm like,
(36:51):
okay, that's just that's that's what marriage is. I'm fortunate enough that my parents had a really
healthy relationship. They still do. They're still together. And so I got my, I guess, ideas about
marriage from them. And I'm just like, okay, well, when you get married, it was more of a trajectory.
It was like marriage wasn't the end all be all, but it was the stepping stone towards a life that I
(37:16):
really honestly didn't want to live. So I knew from a young age, I did not want kids. And I felt like
as soon as you get married, you have to have kids. That is that's what happens. Like, you know,
forget about the birds in the bees talk. You get married, you have kids, you live this suburban
lifestyle. And I just remember thinking at a young age, I was like, I don't want that for myself.
(37:41):
I couldn't tell you what I wanted instead, but I was like, that ain't it. Okay, that's interesting. And how did
that fit like as somebody who was so engaged in faith and church? And it's like, okay, they're telling
you that's going to be your future. How did that fit for you? Or how did you feel about that? I mean,
(38:07):
did it ever make you not really fit in and church or make you ever feel out of place? Towards the end of
my, like towards college, so like when I was in the Christian & Missionary Alliance, I was there
until I was in seventh grade. I didn't think about boys at that time, really. When I, when my parents
(38:27):
moved us to a different church, that was seventh grade two, we'll say 12th grade. I maybe sort of
thought about it like some of the, some of the kids. So we were, we were in segregated classes in
middle school. So the girls were all in one class, the boys were all in their class. We would go on
girls retreats and they would definitely talk about marriage and all, all like purity culture was
(38:49):
a big thing. That young. Oh, yes. Oh, that's where I, that's where I picked up. So that like eighth grade
is pretty much where I, where I picked up on purity culture. And then we moved on to, yeah, so I wasn't,
I still wasn't really interested in boys all that much. I was just like, okay, they're, they're there,
(39:12):
you know, like my friends maybe date some of them, but for the most part, I had a solid group of
girlfriends and I was like, okay, I mean, I'm all set. I don't need a boy in my life. As we got to
college, I definitely started feeling out of place like just in general, I was like, I'm not interested
in dating. And so that was like a real, that was like a big thing, I guess, at the time. So in crew,
(39:37):
we had formal dances. And I remember one of my friends being like, hey, you should go with this guy,
I'll set you up and I was like, okay, okay, I guess. And that ended up being my first and only boy
friends. And that did not last very long for all the reasons I've said. And from then, I was just,
(39:58):
I was just kind of like, okay, what do I do now? Especially when I am a young adult,
living on my own for the first time, going to my own church. So I was going to a, another
Baptist church different from my parents that was in Raleigh. And at the time, it was very like
(40:19):
the college ministry was all together. And then as I graduated, I moved up to the young adult class
and that's when I was like, oh, okay, this is Christian Mingle, IRL. So like the quote-unquote singles class
is where everybody got to to to go be paired up. And I was like, I guess half of me was like, the half
(40:39):
of me that wanted to fit in, the half of me that was still clinging on to the ideas of header
and normativity, which is basically like, oh, if you're a woman, you should want to be with a man.
And vice versa. So I was still clinging to those ideas. I'm like, yeah, maybe I'll find somebody
eligible here. But then the other half of me was just like, no, this is incredibly uncomfortable.
I don't like how they are basically throwing us into one space to pair us off. And even then, like,
(41:06):
there were, there were married couples in that class. So it wasn't a true singles ministry,
but it was very much like, oh, okay, yeah, they're going to pair us off like, like to quote you in your
book, they're going to pair us off like, no, it's art. Yeah. So as I grew up, I became an adult, yeah,
I definitely started to feel out of place about the whole marriage thing. And especially not wanting to
(41:31):
like do the the married with kids family life.
Would you say that I know like with myself and like listening to a lot of your story in some ways,
there are parts of our own stories that are kind of similar. They're similar for different reasons
at times. Some of them are the same, but some of them are different. And I know that in dealing with
(41:56):
the queer community overall, I would say that I kind of silently judged everybody. I might not have
overtly said anything. I never even got into the whole pronoun thing. That wasn't even a thing.
I was saying, yeah, please see all these years ago, the first time that anything ever really came up
(42:18):
for me was an HIV training when we were doing rapid testing. And we would ask people, what would you
like us to call you today? And the reason for that was not really because of gender identity, but
people used fake names. Or they might go and they might not use their actual name for fear of being
found out that they're getting tested. But I guess we could say, you know, I might not have
(42:42):
overtly said anything to anyone or had an opinion or been really obvious, but I might have
silently judged a lot of people. I probably, yeah, you know, not that she mentioned that. I probably
did too because it was that was like the evangelical calling card. It's just like, oh, you don't let
bygones be guygones. You don't mind your own business. You are vocal about something or you are
(43:08):
judging by neighbor. Yeah, you're just passively doing. Yeah. Hey, that would be a great podcast,
title judge. Hey, there you go. Well, we're gonna have to do that in the second half of this season.
Okay, but that being said, I mean, because that was that was my thing. Was that, you know, it's like
you might have not said anything to anybody's face or you might have done all the stuff on the
(43:30):
surface, but you better believe inside of you, you had an opinion, you just didn't really.
Or it's hate the sin love the center. Yeah, love the center that that whole mess. Yeah.
So you went through this whole period. You went through COVID. You've had all these realizations.
How did your family react when you came out? So they were surprisingly cool with it. Like I said,
(43:53):
my sister had come out first and she tested the waters like really tested the waters. And so at that
point, it was also my mom also says it wasn't really surprising when I came out because she's always like,
yeah, you were never interested in boys. And she was like, honestly, I thought you were a lesbian. And
I'm just like, no, everyone I've ever met. No, it's funny. My old co-workers at my old job,
(44:18):
like whenever we would go out somewhere because I didn't have a partner, they're like, oh, do you
have a partner like trying to figure out like who I was into like what my orientation was? I had
the pixie haircut. I dressed very androgynously. So like it wasn't really a surprise that I came out
as anything. It was only a surprise to me because I'm thinking on the best faker in the world. And I'm
(44:43):
just like, oh, of course I'm, you know, straight and female. Yeah. And it's like, no, you're just the world's
best master, okay? But yeah, my family took it really well. It's just I got a lot of backlash from my
friends. And it's really not surprising looking back because they were all part of that
(45:05):
evangelical lifestyle, the very hate the sin love the center, where queers a lifestyle. It's a choice.
It's something that you can repent from. It's something that's a sin. And so, you know, in hindsight,
looking back, of course, it's not surprising, but you always hope there's that little seed of hope
whenever a queer Christian comes out to their friends, especially if they're conservative,
(45:30):
is that the friend will choose love. They'll choose you over their theology. And a lot of times
that doesn't happen. Right. It's not a thing. Yeah. It's, and it's very difficult to experience, but
ideologies often win. Yeah. In those situations. So, how did you become a minister? I say that like,
(45:56):
I don't know the answer. Right. Like you ordained me. So I actually will, so I know. So I need to
back up all the way to 2018 for this. So my whole reason for leaving Raleigh to come to Charlotte was
for a job, which I, which I still have. I had been looking for another writing position. And I had
(46:19):
interviewed at this one place. I remember having to like take a day off to go to the interview in person
because it was in Charlotte. And I lived in Raleigh. So I took the day off, went in for the interview, and
I remember seeing Nick there because spoiler alert, I got the job and Nik was working there and is
(46:39):
still working there. But at the time we were in the office, Nik was there with all of their
Funko pops and their cubicle. But the one thing that stood out to me is that Nik had a black ring
on their middle finger, which if any of you are going to read the ministering to LGBT book that
Apostle Leanne has written, it explains that that is yes, out soon. It's really good. I've read it.
(47:05):
No spoilers, but there is a passage in there that tells you what some of these
signs of finding quote unquote, "aces in the wild" that exist. And so one of them is you wear a black
ring on, I believe it's your right, your right hand, the middle finger of your right hand. And so I saw
(47:26):
that and I was like, hmm, I wonder. And then I got the job. I started working at the company.
We had a buddy system, so Nik was basically helping me learn the ropes, introducing me to the entire
group. I just remember I was like, Nik is like the coolest person ever and I got like a real like,
I would call it a friendship crush, honestly, because like the way that I attached myself to them
(47:51):
was really quick. Like we became besties within a week and I was like, this doesn't usually happen.
But it happened. And so I remember going to their house one time and I was like, oh,
you have an ace pride flag in your apartment. I know what that is. And they were really surprised
that I knew what it was. And I was like, hey, I'm asexual. Woohoo. Yeah. So we got to bond over that.
(48:18):
And then I told them, yeah, like I figured you were asexual from, you know, that ring, but I just
wanted to make sure we got really, really close. We went to actually I blame, I think and I blame Nik
because my entire community revolves around them. So they introduced me to a community group,
which I got really involved with. Eventually, became a leader for before I had to step down
(48:41):
for just life reasons. And then obviously Nik introduced me to sanctuary. They even before they
started going to sanctuary, they had done the whole rigmaru of like figuring out who they were,
figuring out that they could be queer and a Christian. They were going to a queer affirming church.
(49:02):
I at this time was still very like still evangelical going to a big mega church in Charlotte. And then
I was like, oh, it's too far away from me. Let me try the one that's across the street from me,
which ended up being a church plant from my parents church in Kerry of all places. I was like, oh,
okay, I know a small world. And so I reconnected with all like some of my old church friends and some
(49:26):
new ones as well. And that was my community for a while. And then COVID hit. And that all stopped.
And I basically, I never went back to that church again because that's also about the time I came
out. And I was like, yeah, the they're not going to be accepting of me. And in fact, somebody from the
person who ended up coming into my Instagram dns and telling me off was from that church. And so
(49:51):
I was like, all right. So I probably won't be welcome back there. Probably. Yeah, probably not. But
before that, when we were still like pre-COVID, Nik had invited me to their church to MCC. I was
hesitant to go at first because this is still a little evangelical me. I was just like, oh, they're
backsliders. Like they don't believe in in Jesus. They're like, they believe a false gospel or whatever.
(50:15):
But I went and I was just like, okay, maybe this wasn't that bad. And it sort of opens my mind to
the possibility that, hey, you can be a queer and Christian. You can be connected to God and embracing
your queer identity at the same time. And so eventually after COVID hit, after I was tired of watching
(50:40):
my pastor talk on on Facebook for like, you know, the fifth month in a row, I was just like, I want
community again. And so I took Nick up on their offer to go to Bible study at their apartment. And
so I was like, Oh, okay, like, let's try this. And I went and it was like, there were a handful of
(51:01):
people there, but I remember getting prayed for and like really feeling the spirit move in my life.
Like, what? Lee Ann, I think you had given me like a word of wisdom or a word of knowledge,
like inadvertently. And I was just like, Oh, shoot, this is like the real deal. And I remember
(51:21):
being so profoundly affected by that. That I was like, Okay, I want to come back here. And so I just
kept coming back. And then eventually they're like, Hey, hey, we think you're a teacher. Hey,
we should put you on the leadership team. And I'm like, Oh, hold up, hold up. What? Hold up. What?
And I kept being like, No, I was content with just sitting in the pews, taking notes on every sermon
(51:43):
that I would never read again. You know, I'm just like, just let me let me be in a casual observer.
Don't make me a leader. You know, and Nick, Nik went into this in their testimony about how the people
who perpetuate church hurt our leaders ministers for the most part. And so I was like, I don't want to
(52:04):
perpetuate that cycle of abuse. And I also am like, I am still pretty new to this faith that I've
discovered for myself. Like, what if I get stuff wrong, especially if I'm going to be this
in this teacher position where you got to be like really knowledgeable about theology and stuff.
And I was like, I don't know a whole lot, but by the grace of God, I am somehow interested in all
(52:30):
the subjects I never liked in school. Somehow as an adult, in seminary, there are a lot more enjoyable.
Look at God. Look at God being like, Hey, there's a there's a $10 history textbook at the bookstore.
You should get that for a sermon purposes. I was like, Okay, so
you know, look, I didn't like school until I was in college. Yeah, I mean, I always was a really good
(52:55):
student. It was just so stressful because I'm a perfectionist. That's like, Oh, I mean, I was in okay
student, but I didn't really like the subjects there. And that's I very much believe it's the way
that they were taught. I think that we were kind of taught and I can bear about when. Oh, yeah.
I'm going to take a sip of my water, say hydrated. Yeah, hydrated. Yeah, that's actually on the water bottle
(53:22):
that I'm drinking. Yes. So while you're taking your sip, we're actually, you didn't know what you were
going to talk about. We're just about out of time. Okay, cool. And given you told your story and you
kind of went from very early and you kind of took yourself pretty much to now where you're a minister
and you know who you are. And the most part, you know, you're living life for the most part. What would
(53:45):
you like to leave our listeners with as a final thought from your journey? I guess be flexible
because I look back and I like, I don't really think I had any concrete plans. I did not know what,
(54:06):
like if somebody asked me to create a five-year plan for my life in school, I was like, I don't know
what you want from me. It was like, I never, I mean, I wanted to be an author and I sort of am. Really?
Yeah, I mean, because I've always loved writing. So it made sense. And ironically enough, I
(54:26):
went to school to be an engineer because it was part, hey, you need to get a good job right out of
college. Another part, hey, my parents were like kind of kind of nudging me like, hey, you're really,
really good at like the math and science and stuff. You should go into engineering, like your dad's
an engineer, like a lot of your great uncles or engineers, you should do that. And I was like, sure.
(54:47):
And then I get countered physics and I was like, oh, no, no, we're going back to back to the drawing
board. We're going back to writing. And so yeah, I think the moral of the story is to like, as much as
it sucks, as much as it you might want to have your own plans for your life. It's like ultimately,
God is going to put you somewhere where you're going to carry out his will because like, you know,
(55:11):
I wanted to be an engineer. I ended up being in English. And if I hadn't changed my major,
I would not be here today. If I hadn't moved to Charlotte from Raleigh, if I hadn't left my comfort zone
being at home, I would never have met Nik. I would have never been involved in sanctuary. I would
never have been a minister. So yeah, just be flexible. I say with Gritted Teeth knowing that God is
(55:38):
going to force me to be more flexible. Of course, if you brought it up, yeah, there's that. And I guess
don't be afraid to like lean on your community. Just community is very important.
Absolutely. Well, I thank you for coming on here and sharing your story with everybody.
(56:01):
Yeah, thanks for that. We talk. How can how can everybody get in contact with you if they would like to?
Yeah, like I said, there is a contact forum on my website. So again, it's beloved-not-broken.com.
There is a it's under questions, but feel free to just like reach out and say, hey,
I also have my social media. So you can find me on TikTok. You can find me on Tumblr. I am most
(56:28):
active on Tumblr. You can also find me on X, but I maybe check that once every two months. So the
best way to get in contact with me is either through the website or through Tumblr.
Well, very good. And I thank you for being on and you know that she'll be back. Well, have you back
even before the season's out? Cool. We'll work all that out. And I thank all of you for listening
(56:51):
today. And if you would like a resource while you're waiting for ministering to LGBTQ and those
who love them to come out, that is an update from the original book that I did many years ago,
about 10 years ago. I think it is now 10, 11 years ago. And it very much needed a refresher,
needed some new thoughts, needed some new ideas. So I've been spending time working on that.
(57:14):
You can get how from a foundation answering what and why we believe that's how from a foundation,
answering what and why we believe. Now, this is actually a little book that we give out to visitors
at sanctuary. So if you want to copy and you don't want to order it, you can come visit us. Yeah.
But if you are kind of far away or not able to visit, it is available, very, very inexpensive on Amazon
(57:39):
.com and any profit that we receive from it, any royalty, we do donate to sanctuary. So how from a
foundation is actually basically answering questions based on our statement of faith, why we believe
what we do, supplementing scriptures and a little bit of assessment and discussion about why. And so
(58:00):
that little book is a nice little resource about affirming church. So if you're interested in that
while you wait for the release of the other book, check that out. Look me up, Dr. Lee Ann B.
Marino on Amazon.com or wherever books are sold and all my titles will come up both paperback
and ebook available, something for everyone. We will have hard cover later this year. Look that up,
(58:23):
check me out today. Also connect with me across social media @Kingdompowernow. I am on Facebook,
Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, etc. @Kingdompowernow. I would love to hear from you. Let's have that
conversation. Let's learn what you'd like to hear on this program, what you think, what you like,
(58:44):
what you don't like, reach out once again, @Kingdompowernow and let's talk. Also check out my
patheos column, which is a leader guide. It is not just four leaders, but anybody who's interested in
leadership. So you want to learn about leadership, you want to learn more about leadership, you just
want to learn general principles of it, you are a leader. Check out leadership on fire at patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire.
(59:10):
That's patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire. Check that out today. And one of the nice things is you can
sign up just for my column if you don't want everybody else's. So go ahead. New columns are released
every Wednesday. Also, if you would like to learn more about the world of counterculture Christianity,
feel free to visit my website at Kingdompowernow.org. That's kingdompowernow.org. If you are looking for
(59:35):
seminary that is entirely affordable because it is donation based. And that includes most of your
books, not all but most. And when you do have to cover your own books, they are low cost. Check out
Apostolic Covenant Theological Seminary, Acts for Short at Acts176.org. That's Acts176.org. And if
you're in the Charlotte, North Carolina area and you are looking for your found family because we
(59:59):
know that family means nobody gets left behind. Check out the work of sanctuary at
welcomeinthisplace.org. That's welcomeinthisplace.org. And if you have a question that's not answered on the
website, feel free to reach out to us and we will be more than happy to get back to you. And this is
Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you in closing that knowing who we are brings us closer to God.
(01:00:22):
And we serve God best when we understand who we are. So as minister Reep said, flexibility is key.
Until next time, be blessed.
Thank you for joining us on the Kingdom Now podcast today. I pray it is proven to be a blessing
(01:00:44):
in your life. To learn more about this work, ask a question, submit feedback, advertise with us,
be a guest, or donate to support this work. As our podcast is sponsored by listeners like you,
visit my website which contains essential information, projects and looks for other points
(01:01:06):
of contact around the web at kingdompowernow.org. Also, if you are in our area and would like to visit
sanctuary international fellowship tabernacle, visit welcomeinthisplace.org.
Until next time, this is Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you that the Kingdom of God
(01:01:28):
is within you. And that means the Kingdom is now.
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