May 27, 2025 • 70 mins
What does holiness have to do with our relationships with God and others? Everything! Join Apostle Lee Ann Marino and guests Ministers Charlie Reep and Nik Lewis (Sanctuary Charlotte) for a conversation about the way holiness transforms everything in our lives, if we understand what it's about and why it matters. Far beyond a discussion about rules, listen in to hear about the power of divine transformation. (Intro and Conclusion Track "Ready to Rock" by Yvgeniy Sorokin, https://pixabay.com/users/eugenemyers-40510887/. Righteous Pen Publications Track "Inspirational Background" by AudioCoffee, https://pixabay.com/music/corporate-inspirational-background-112290/.)
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Episode Transcript
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Welcome to Kingdom Now, the podcast featuring Faith with an Edge, as we celebrate the Kingdom
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of God within you.
I am your host, Dr. Lee Ann Marino, apostle, author, podcaster, professor and theologian,
and founder of Spitfire Apostolic Ministries and all the works that go along with it.
I am excited to share this program with you as we explore the ins and outs of Counterculture
(01:13):
Christianity Press as you live out the Kingdom of God in your everyday life.
Want to learn more?
Visit my website at www.kingdompowernow.org
and now our program, which features a variety of formats here, just for you.
Interviews on a variety of relative topics, teaching and preaching proclaim everywhere from
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my North Carolina studio to Sanctuary and Beyond, and powerful insights here for now as
we turn the world upside down everywhere we go.
Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, happy whatever time of day this is wherever
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you are and to our listeners in name of country.
Thailand, it's one of our new ones, right?
I did Thailand last time.
When I was on with you actually, hmm?
Right.
Guam
To our listeners in Guam we say hi because most of the people in Guam speak English, so anyway,
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and in all the other English speaking countries, we're going to say hi.
I need to learn how to say hello in new languages because we have a whole bunch of new countries
and I very openly admit I do not know what your native languages are and so I have to learn.
And that will be a wonderful project for our hiatus, which is coming up.
And this is Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino and I welcome you to this edition of the Kingdom now podcast
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and I am your host here as the Spitfire serving as the voice of counter-cultural Christianity
where we feature the theme of faith with an edge.
And if you would like to learn more about the world of counter-cultural Christianity, feel
free to visit my website at kingdompowernow.org and I do encourage you to keep an eye on that
because we're going to be making some updates in the next few months.
So as I just said a moment ago, this is actually our final episode before we go on our summer
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hiatus and we will miss you all terribly.
And what I encourage everybody to do as I usually do is to go back and listen to anything
that you've missed.
So this gives you a chance to catch up and maybe kind of figure out where you're at and what's
going on and when it came time to talk about something that we really wanted to leave with
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our listeners, none of us who are on here had any idea what we wanted to say.
And that's kind of like when somebody asks you where you want to eat and all of a sudden
you can't think of a single restaurant you've ever been to in your entire life or like
hey gee what's your favorite song?
What's a song?
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Okay.
It's like all of a sudden we have no recollection of what to do.
Well that happens with topics for podcasts as well.
And so that happened to us but sometimes inspiration finds itself in an interesting place.
And a conversation that we had yesterday on the holiness of God led into a conversation
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about marriage as a type of that relationship and that really in essence we do kind of have
a marriage with God.
And why it's really important that we see God is more than just father or parent figure
because it gives us more of an idea of the nature of God and who God is and what kind of
a relationship we should have.
So we're going to be talking about all these different things because I think that they
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really do offer some interesting insights into what we need to know more about God.
I feel sometimes it's church that our relationships with God are encouraged to be very monotone
that because it's a lot easier to just talk about God is father and stick that rhythm
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in a song 50,000 times that we forget that God is other things and that other relationships
that we have really do reflect other things with God.
But before we get too much into any of this I want to introduce my returning guests.
We have ministers Nik Lewis and Charlie Reep both from Sanctuary Charlotte and I'm going
to turn this over so that y'all can introduce yourselves so go for it.
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Oh are you pointing to me?
Somebody talk.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
I'm scrolling through my blog post and then I come back and I see Chuck pointing to the
chat so I don't know what's happening.
Well this is I'm pointing to the left.
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It looks like I'm pointing to your screen but I guess not.
You were definitely pointing to the chat I am over.
Or actually to me.
Yeah.
Okay.
Anyway I just went.
All right.
Y'all go.
Okay.
I am minister Nik Lewis.
Pronouns they/them.
Returning guest to this podcast.
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If you've listened for any amount of time you probably heard my voice at some point on
this thing.
I am forgetting how words work.
I'm a professional.
I have nothing on my mind
A website.
I do have a website.
It's NikFits.com.
That's N-I-K-F-I-T-S.com.
It's mostly a blog.
I blog about different things like how fandom culture of any fanfiction can relate to
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Christianity.
I give some other personal, more churchy spiritual insights as well.
If you want to follow me, there is a link to the contact page for that site.
You can find me on TikTok for however much longer we have it.
Instagram, bluesky, wherever else I have on there.
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Cool.
I'm minister Charlie Reep.
Also they/them pronoun user.
Also returning guest.
Also been on a lot of things.
I also have a website with a kind of long URL.
So it is beloved-not-broken.com.
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It is mostly a library of resources for, I would say, mostly queer questioning and deconstructing
Christians.
I also have a blog, but it's a little hard to find.
I've updated the homepage and they get a little bit easier to find.
But I will talk about anything from fandom stuff to the most recent blog post I did was
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the history of Christianity for a seminary assignment.
So it is streamlined all over the place.
Well, I think that that's very interesting and everybody definitely should go check
out your sites and your blogs and all the things that you're talking about over there.
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So I'll start by kind of throwing in here what started the whole conversation as I mentioned
earlier.
For those who are not familiar with the podcast or the history, I actually have a history
in the holiness movement.
Or I guess we could say in the descendants of the holiness movement, I was certainly not
around when the original thing was happening.
And just in case, you know, I'm not like 200 years old.
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But anyway, I actually had a long history and actually a complicated history with the
holiness movement in terms of its descendants, specifically Pentecostal holiness and denominations
that would fall under that heading.
And one of the major things that I've often said is that I might have been quote unquote
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practicing what I was taught was holiness, but I never really understood it.
I didn't have the first clue of what it meant.
I thought that it was about hair and pants and not wearing makeup and using only the King
James Bible.
And you know, not being on the internet too much and not really watching a whole lot of TV
and definitely not smoking or drinking or dancing to a certain extent.
I mean, because most of us danced in church, but as far as the movements pretty much went,
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I had a long list of do's and don'ts.
And I really didn't understand the concept that they were trying to teach us.
And I was at work yesterday.
So I was at work minding my own business, driving between assignments.
And all of a sudden it really kind of dropped on me that we talk about that we're called
to be holy because God is holy.
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And the term holiness literally means separate or different or set apart.
And so in other words, that means a couple of things when it comes to God.
The first thing that it means is that God is separate from all other things in the universe.
So from all idols.
And so it is an anti-idolatory statement that God is separate from creation.
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God is above any other thing that we put in our lives above any other god.
God is God.
And so God is separate from that.
But it also means that God is different.
And so all of a sudden it like dropped that we cannot go to God and find more of what we
find in the world.
If we're going to God and we're truly receiving from God, it's going to be something
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that's different.
It's going to be something that we don't find anywhere else because that is truly what
holiness means is it means something about being different.
And I don't know if we can embrace the idea of holiness for ourselves until we embrace
it for God.
And having started that, I'm going to let somebody else jump in here and talk with some
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of their thoughts about kind of that starting point so we can start to veer off here.
All right, I will talk first, I guess, because I have also thought about kind of how if we
have an individual relationship with God and how our personal relationships with other
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people don't look the same as with someone else, like my relationship with Charlie is different
from my relationship with Lee Ann.
We are both we are all platonic partners, ministers, friends, what have you, but even still our relationship
dynamic is different individually.
And that's something we don't teach when it comes to God.
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For some reason that gets lost in translation, we think that we have to pray a certain way,
like when I was growing up, I heard constantly that I need to be down on my knees to pray.
And I always felt like a bad Christian because it just hurts to be out my knees for like more
than 10 seconds and I'm being generous with that.
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So that kind of left me out there as but and especially people who like can't kneel for
whatever other reason.
And you have to read your Bible every day, you have to pray in the morning, pray at night,
go to church every Sunday, go to all the services.
If you have like two or three, it's very formulaic and that's not how relationships should
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work, but we prescribe that to our relationship with God and it doesn't really work.
Okay, now I have thoughts before it was head empty, but now when you said prescribed and all
this stuff, I kept thinking about the phrase one size fits all and how with a lot of things,
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I think about with my job to any sort of political decision that gets made, we wish that there
was a one size fits all solution because that's easy, but people are very complex.
Like Nik was saying, we have entirely different relationship dynamics between two different
people, like even within our group, our little group of three here, it's, we have completely
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different dynamics from each other and we can't apply a one size fits all approach to
even three of us, much less anything bigger, especially to church, but I feel like somewhere
along the line of church history or whatever, there became a, I guess an obsession with trying
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to find the easy route, trying to find the one thing that would fix all ills and we've
lost sight of the individuality of people.
And then if I can actually kind of piggyback on the church history bit because we are both
in seminary, me and Charlie, taught by the lovely Lee Ann here.
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Tada!
I feel like a lot of it is rooted in fear of losing people because we have definitely seen
throughout church history that one particular group will be in power or have the majority
and all these other little different groups will sprout up.
And so the people who have the most sway are like, oh no, they're preaching something slightly
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different than us, they're heretics, they're going to lead people astray.
And sometimes it's not even that big a deal.
So I get the concern about making sure everyone is being taught correctly, but that also swings
widely into the other direction of losing individuality like Charlie said.
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What I'm thinking of as you both are talking is something that Chuck often says and that's
that many churches try to appeal to the lowest common denominator.
And in other words, they go on the assumption, first of all, that everybody who's there
doesn't know anything, which is a dangerous assumption, particularly in Western society.
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I mean, I can understand that maybe if you're somewhere where Christianity is not so prevalent
or hasn't been prevalent, you know, where if they didn't grow up with veggie tales and,
you know, Jonah riding on the back of a whale, which was a picture in a Sunday school book.
I mean, and I remember when I found that I went, oh my God, that's so inaccurate.
You know, like he's surfing on the back of the whale and the whale was spouting up, you
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know, and it was this old thing.
And Nik is thinking about this.
Because I think I've seen something like that.
You've seen something like it.
I didn't make it up.
I keep telling people, this is not the mandala effect.
I really do remember this.
No, I think it was like in a kid's book or something like that.
It was in like a children's something for children.
Yeah, was the whale yellow.
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I want to say it kind of was like a greenish, yellow, yes.
It kind of had like a yellow tinge to it, but it was had green in it too.
It was ridiculous, whatever the hell it was.
But you know, if you grow up in a world like that, I mean, I'm, I think it's safe to say
you may not have an accurate view of Christianity or you might only know what you've grown up with,
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but to assume that people don't know anything is wrong.
And then you have that they really only take you so far because of the fear that Nick is
talking about.
People are so afraid today.
Preachers, denominations that they are going to lose more people that people are not going
to find them engaging that people are not going to want to stay with them.
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But they're not encouraging people to grow spiritually.
And I mean, if you were that afraid of people growing spiritually, then you need to be doing
some different church because us growing spiritually should be what we go to church to do.
We shouldn't be necessarily always outgrowing the church.
Now are some ministries for different things?
Absolutely.
I'm not questioning that, challenging that, making any sort of problem with that, but it
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can't be that every church only goes so far and then everybody stops and then you're
at the end of the cliff.
We need to have some development somewhere and that starts with expanding people's relationship
and view of God so that they can develop and grow into more of one with him.
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Well, everybody got quiet.
I mean, if we're using this time to segue, to talk about different relationships again,
I actually did a blog post in, well, 2023, I didn't realize it had been done all called
the, called how relationships teach us to love God.
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And I talk about how different types of relationships can give us different insights
into God's nature and how we can relate to God.
Hmm.
Familiar, found familial, professional, romantic, platonic, queerplatonic and to kind of
time I'll do the--
Which this blog?
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Yeah.
This was a great blog.
Okay, go on.
Awesome.
Well, thank you.
I think I also put it on LinkedIn if I remember right.
One of the few I posted there, but anyway.
And to kind of piggyback off what you were saying, we had, it's, it doesn't really make sense
to have a relationship with, with somebody and then just kind of plateau.
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Like you don't go into a professional career, develop a certain set of skills and then
just be like, all right, I'm cool.
And you don't try to learn anything to advance or move to a different job path if that's
what you want to do.
You don't just make one friend and be like, okay, I'm good at master friendship.
Like you don't just get--
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Yeah, I'll be out.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, some people, I will say in rare instances, may date one person, marry them and then that's
the only relationship they have in their entire life in which case, great.
Love that for you.
That was not me.
And it's not a lot of people.
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So you don't just date one person and be like, ah, yes, I have mastered the romantic relationships.
Yay.
I have gotten an A-plus and this is normal and good to achieve.
Like that's not-- it's not how relationships work.
You need to--
[LAUGHTER]
I quoted that in my therapist yesterday.
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Oh, okay.
Yeah.
We need to have different types of relationships and different people within those relationships
who learn things about others, about ourselves.
And we need to spend more time with God, learning about God's nature, the things that God does
and how that relates to us and humanity in general.
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We can't just-- I don't know.
We can't just like read the Bible once and be like, ah, yes, I understand God perfectly.
[LAUGHTER]
I have to tell this story now.
Okay.
Please, though.
And then you can go back to what you're saying.
Oh, no, I was done.
Yeah.
I lead a group with somebody else.
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I helped them out with a moderation on Facebook and one day someone came in the group and said,
oh, why I read the whole Bible like three years ago and I have it pretty much memorized now?
And I screen shot it and sent it to the owner of the group and he said, oh, I said, I said,
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how many times have you been through the Bible?
How many times am I still going through the Bible?
But I have the whole thing memorized.
Oh, okay.
You know, that was right.
That made me think of--
As well as say, how often do we be like, oh, yeah, there's that one person, Paul.
It's like somewhere in the Old Testament.
It's in one of the prophets.
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Shut up.
And, okay, but--
Or I love those times when we go, oh, it's in the New Testament and then it's like, you
know, in Second Kings 27 or--
I don't think there's a Second Kings 27.
It's in some-- I don't want to be that guy who said Ephesians 22.
Okay.
So it's in Second Kings 2.
There we go.
I know there's a 2 in there.
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You know, verse 4.
And, you know, we're like, oh, right.
Okay.
Yeah.
I guess that's not the New Testament.
Okay.
I think this is one of the Corinthians and it's in like Hebrews.
Yeah, right.
Okay, but that's still funny.
That's what--
Actually, that made me think of that and we're all laughing and we're hysterical because,
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you know, we go through the Bible over and over again.
I mean, and I know that we've even admitted that certain parts of the Bible are harder
for us to get through.
We often have questions about passages.
It leads us to do a lot of deep dives, but this relates to what you're saying about your
relationship thing.
Okay.
First of all, not everybody is into reading the Bible every day like it's a novel.
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And I'm saying that very sincerely as someone who does read the Bible every day.
So, I'm doing that because that really helps me.
And in addition to doing the Bible reading every day, I also have a whole thing where my
entire Bible is that I preach from and I often study from are highlighted and underlined
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in a bunch of different colors and I even use a straight edge.
And as Chuck pointed out to me, that is not how normal people spend their time.
And I just kind of looked at Chuck like, you know, that I was just, you know, what the hell?
You know, because to me, I've been doing it for years.
And I've even started doing it every day.
Now, I don't sit down and do the whole book every day.
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I think I better clarify that.
I'm not doing 27 or 46 or, you know, 66 chapters at once.
But what happened was I would sit and I would do a book in the afternoon on a Saturday.
And I started to find that my body was really hurting when I went to get up because I'd
be sitting like that for so many hours.
So I said, okay, I'm going to try doing five chapters a night and actually that's really
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been working well for me.
So not only am I reading the Bible, now I'm highlighting and underlining it in another Bible.
And it's a totally different passage than often where I'm working.
But that works for me.
Now that may not work for somebody else.
I get a lot out of doing the Bible reading in the chronological order.
And I print that out on blueletterbible.org.
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And I read it in different translations every year in order to get different things out
of it.
This year, I'm in the message Bible.
That works really good for me.
Not so much so for the other two that are on this podcast.
I do remember this is a podcast.
I almost said this call.
Okay.
This podcast.
Look, it's Thursday and it's 8.30.
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Okay.
Podcast.
Maybe one gets more revelatory in sight.
Maybe one gets a lot out of, hey, I'm going to read a couple of chapters and do a deep dive
on everything that I notice in it.
And I want to go learn all the culture and all the history and all the context.
And each one of us does it a little bit differently, but we get a lot out of it the way that we're
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doing it.
And that's what makes our relationship kind of work with God in a different way is we
have to find what's going to keep us engaged.
The next thing I'm going to say is that just like you talk about very, very few people just
say, oh, hey, I dated somebody once when I was 14 and I'm done now, I mastered it.
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I'm not going to do any better with anything else.
If you approach your personal relationships that same way, whether it's marriage, which
marriage is most likely going to come up again because of what we're talking about
today.
It's marriage, whether it's friendships, whether it's your church relationship with your
leader, with God, with your participation in your church community.
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If you're just kind of sitting back and saying, all right, I got saved.
I'm done now.
Come to me, papa kind of thing.
And you just sit back and wait for everybody to just everything to fall at your feet.
You're not going to ever get anywhere with God.
I'm being looked at very badly right now.
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It was the come to me, papa.
I'm sorry.
Because that's what people do.
It's like come and find me now.
Yeah, you're going to rickroll.
It was just the phrase.
Are we all okay now?
(26:03):
We can take another 20 seconds.
Everybody just got Rick Roll, but I have to edit it out.
Okay.
You successfully rickrolled me.
Congratulations.
Okay.
I feel very good about myself now.
Okay.
Anyway.
Okay.
One podcast.
I have a good time.
Are you having a good time?
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Aren't you having a good time?
I was going to say, this is something we can do.
We can all lose the game.
There we go.
That's something that's not copy-written.
Okay.
Anyway, back to more serious things about God and Bible and it's in Paul.
Okay.
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So saying that about relationship mastery and things of that nature.
So people are going to say to us, how can I do what you're talking about?
So how do people start with this?
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Well, I will jump in and say that by the time this airs, we will have done a super Sunday
school Sunday.
Yes, we will.
Yeah, that will be recorded and live streamed on Facebook and eventually uploaded to YouTube.
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So that is something that you can watch.
I know one thing I'm going to, or what I'm going to be talking about as soon as I do more
research on it is the revelation that I kind of parallel play with God.
And if you don't know what parallel play means, kind of think about how if you're in a room
(27:51):
with a cat and like you're sitting on the couch and maybe the cat comes in on the couch with
you and then just does nothing to really interact with you, but still just does their own
thing in the same space that you are, that's parallel play.
It's like two people being in a room on their phones, maybe saying words every 10 minutes
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or something like that, but it's not super engaging, super direct.
And I say I kind of do that with God because, and I joke about this a lot, that's I watch
a lot of anime, YouTube, things of that nature, K-pop.
And I'll be watching something because I want to turn my brain off.
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I don't want to think about things because I think all the words at work and I do the thinking
at work.
I don't want to think of work.
And then one time I'm watching Attack on Titan and God drops us like, hey, this is kind of
like spiritual warfare and I'm just like, why?
Why would you do this to me?
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And I did.
Why not doing a whole Sunday school about Attack on Titan spiritual warfare that made sense?
But for me, it's not me actively going to watch a thing and being like, oh yes, let's
see the spiritual insights I can get from this today.
Wow.
It just kind of happens.
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But for me, that works and Lee Ann shut up in advance.
It especially works for things like one of my current obsessions at the moment,
where I told you shut up in advance.
I have done Sunday school sermons and many blog posts based off of Epic the musical, which
(29:41):
on the one hand, yes, I should probably stop.
It should probably stop yapping about it at some point.
But at the same time, it helps me a little bit.
I think you shouldn't.
Okay, fine.
Nik will remember this for the record.
I think that you should keep talking about it because you're getting a lot out of it.
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And I really enjoy giving you a hard time.
So go on.
Okay, fair.
I guess I shouldn't have thought of that.
But also because I listened to the soundtrack and on Godly amount of times, the revelations
that I've gotten from certain songs stick with me.
Like I've done a sermon and blog post on ruthlessness, one of the songs in the musical as
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boundaries.
So whenever I listen to that song, I'm reminded that, hey, you do need to set boundaries.
Sometimes you're going to be viewed as a jerk, but they are necessary and in some instances,
it is mercy upon yourself to do that instead of continuing in psychosome patterns and relationships.
That ultimately hurts you.
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And they're also biblical.
So.
Well, and I think that that's a good thing.
But in other words, finding God in everything that you do.
Hey, it's like my guy, brother Lawrence.
Okay, expound.
He, okay, let me refer back to the blog post because I do not remember exactly.
(31:12):
Okay, so he was a monk who lived from 1610 to 1691 and was originally from, I'm probably
going to butcher this pronunciation.
Hériménil, near Lunéville in Lorraine, a Frenchman.
He was from France, just saying France.
He was from France.
Basically.
And there is a book called The Practice of the Presence of God that I loved, which kind
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of contains some of the letters he wrote.
And he talks about how he's going about his daily duties and like praying and thinking
about God while doing the dishes.
And I really appreciated that because it made the relationship with God so much more attainable
and practical like you don't have to, you can't, you don't just have to go to church to
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find God.
You can find God wherever and whenever, including watching a piece of media that's one of the
most depressing and the elistic things I've ever seen.
So, I just have a ruthlessness stuck in my head, but you know, she is so to stand.
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Well, it's better than Rick Astley's never going to give you up.
So, I'll just go back and forth in my brain for a bit.
But now I figured I was actually kind of pondering my relationship with God like as you're
talking, Nik, about like how yours looks like.
So I've been thinking of God as a friend, but it's more recently I've been realizing it's
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more of like a long distance friendship because there's an intangibility that comes with
like having faith.
Like God isn't a person who can stand in your living room.
Like God can't necessarily give you a hug like your best friend on the street can.
You hear from God differently than somebody who's like, "Talking on the phone or something,
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but there's enough of a presence and then there's enough of I guess spiritual insight that
comes that reminds me of like, okay, if I have like, for instance, I've got a best friend
who lives across the state.
We unfortunately haven't talked in a while, but you know, we're still friends, everything's
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so good.
It's like how it is with God.
It's like we have more of a like we can go almost maybe like a few days without necessarily
talking.
I mean, shoot, I pretty much like I journal every day and it's basically like I'm sending
long emails to God where I'm just like, "Hey, my job sucks.
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Can you get us out of here?"
Or I'll be like, "Hey, I'm just really grateful for stuff.
Thank you."
And all that stuff.
So it's not necessarily like that back and forth conversation, but it is still communication.
It's still an exchange.
So that's, yeah, so that's, I mean, I'm still working out with it.
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So oh, God's your pen pal.
Yeah, God is my pen pal.
That's a great, that's a great suggestion, Nik.
Yeah, I did have a pen pal way back in the day, but yeah.
I loved pen pals and people who say that they don't really become real friendships are
wrong.
I think that's a wonderful analogy to say that it's like, oh, it's your pen pal.
Yeah, because it's like you had an encounter at one point in time with God and you're like,
I don't want to lose that experience.
I want to keep like the dynamic we had going.
You just can't necessarily do it in the same way that you did in the past with that experience.
Like you can't necessarily repeat that same experience, but you know, the praying and
the worship and the spiritual insights and stuff.
It's, yeah, pretty much like a modern pen pal type of situation because I do more than
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just like journal.
I sometimes get like Nik, I get the spiritual insights mostly from work occasionally.
I'll get them from stuff I'm interested in like some video games or movies or something like
that, but a lot of the times it is through situations happening in my life and then I'll
also get insight from reading the chronological Bible at Lee Ann's suggestion, which I'm very
grateful for because the chronological Bible is boom, mind blowing, changing for me because
I'm like, Hey, now I can actually do it.
I can't read the order in which stuff happens and it makes a lot more sense in my brain instead
of going from like the end of Genesis or no, maybe even like maybe the first few books
of the Bible are a bad example because they are all kind of connected.
But like going from when I eventually get to the prophets, like going from I think Isaiah
to Jeremiah, I'm thinking like they're all successive and they are not.
Right.
Learning in seminary that some prophets came before all of them and I was like, wait, wait,
are they not in chronological order?
They're not in chronological order and I was like, Oh no, I can't comprehend.
So that was just a long day tribe of, Hey, chronological Bible really helps me engage with
scripture and through that God speaks to me.
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That's cool
That's very cool.
I'm kind of, I would say in the middle of the two of you in the vein of what you're
talking about for inspiration, I get a lot out of my daily Bible reading and out of my chronological
study Bibles and out of all that kind of work.
I really do get a lot out of it and I love it and I also love doing the deep dives and
I would also say that I also get the inspiration.
Now I'm going to openly admit that my fandoms are a little bit more limited than y'alls.
Some of that I'm actually coming to see some of that was how I was raised because it was
very much understood that when we reached a certain age, we didn't have fandoms anymore.
That, you know, the major thing it was okay to kind of be interested in more music groups,
but like, you know, we didn't watch Disney movies and we didn't do certain things and you
weren't supposed to like cartoons and this is nothing saying people can't like animae.
I'm not saying that I'm just saying this was how I was pretty much brought up.
And so getting into stuff is actually really, really difficult for me.
I will often rely back on the same shows I've watched 20,000 billion times and I've also
learned that's very neurodivergent of me because there is a comfort I take in the fact that
I pretty much know what's going to happen, but at the same time that also makes it so I
(35:23):
kind of pick up on stuff I didn't pick up on before.
An example of this would be in my chronological study Bible, I'm doing for Samuel and I am
not going to lie.
When I get to the historical books, I tend to skim them because it's not always the most
interesting reading for me as maybe somebody who had this big, deep prophetic revelation, but
I actually really took some time to read the story of David and Saul and I'm still in
that now and recognizing stuff I didn't notice before.
For example, that David's brothers were the ones who were not able to slay Elias and that
when it came time to call up on David, they didn't want him around and even David at one
point says, "Can I not even talk about it?"
You know that they kind of really brushed him aside and kind of really acted the whole
entire time like they didn't want him there and given my own situation with my siblings,
which I'm not going to get into, and the way I've seen a lot of people with their siblings,
that dismissiveness, that I'm going to say very human experience really spoke to me and
I not gone over the same thing 50 billion times, I probably wouldn't have picked up on it.
And relationships being that being said are not just about doing new things all the time.
And what I'm going to throw in here as somebody who has been married not once but twice, that
marriage is not all about new and different things.
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If anything, it's about a lot of repeated things and kind of in our concept of holiness,
really learning somebody that up close and personal and that differently in a way that
other people do.
Yeah, I guess I have a thought to piggyback off that I was waiting for it to fully formulate.
I've seen posts they typically talk about romantic relationships, but I think they can apply to
any that basically once you get into a relationship, you don't stop doing the things that you did
to get your partner to begin with.
Like if they were, I don't know, if you guys like wrote each other cute sticking notes to
leave in each other's lunch containers or whatever throughout the day, and that really meant
a lot to you, you don't stop doing that.
And one thing that my partner and I have been doing even since before we got together
is basically sending kind of good morning messages like, hey, hope you slept, well, hope
your day goes well, hope you're feeling okay, things like that.
And that is something that we have not stopped doing in over the two years.
We've known each other.
So that being said, it's not always kind of repeating what Lee Ann said, you don't always
have to do something new.
(36:12):
You need a mix, but you definitely don't neglect kind of the quote unquote mundane boring
aspects of it.
Like even though I do get revelations from things outside of the Bible, I still have to read
the Bible every now and then to give revelation from something.
And I need to be able to, if I'm going to preach, I can't just be like, oh, yeah, here are
the things.
And then for lack of a better way to put it, not side my sources.
So you got to still do the basics of Christianity, I would say, but also don't get so bored
with the routine things that you kind of lose sight of how important they are to begin with.
Wow.
It's kind of like, yeah, I would relate it to singing because I am tentatively getting back
into vocal practice.
I need to work a system with it
But anyway, there is a lot of basics that you need to keep in mind for advancing your
technique, but if you're so focused on advancing your technique, it can be easy to forget about
the little stuff.
Or if you're trying to figure out what's going wrong with the more advanced technique, some
of the things you would need to think of is, okay, did I have enough breath support?
(36:40):
Was I singing for my diaphragm?
Was my throat open enough?
Did I have enough space in my mouth?
Like things like that.
And a lot of the times it's something as simple as forgetting one of the basics.
From other times, it's more complicated than that, but I know definitely if I've been doing
a vocal practice or whatever, sometimes it's just like, okay, I didn't breathe enough
there.
Let's rewind and try that again.
I think that's fair.
And I love how you talked about you and your partner and about that particular facet
of things because one of the things the Bible does compare us to in our relationship with
God is as a marriage.
And whether married or not, good principles for marriage start before people ever get to
the altar.
They start before we ever really take that leap.
And if we really want to be serious about our relationship with God, we can learn a lot
from that type of illustration simply because our relationships with other people teach us
about our relationship with God and the issue of God as sovereign, God as our superior,
God as our Lord, God as the God above all other gods is an idolatry issue.
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And when you do with marriage or when you do with things, if you're having the same exact
type of relationship with everybody else that you have with your spouse, something's not
right there.
Now, I'm on a very carefully say that as somebody who is my spouse and I, we are friends with
everybody else.
And there is actually, I'm going to say a queerplatonic element with everybody involves
that it's definitely a thing, but there is still an aspect to it or still ways that he
knows me that everybody else does not.
And we need to be willing to enter into that kind of place with God if we want to know
God for ourselves.
And we don't get there if we don't take some of these steps to try and know him better.
If I can sort of butt in because I think he brought up a really good point about how there's
a reason why we compare our relationship to God with a marriage and like that's what,
that is the analogy that's been used in Scripture, that's been used from pulpits and stuff like
that.
It clearly has a place and it's generally applies, but I will say like as somebody who does
(37:27):
not have a partner and isn't interested in getting married, there are some of us on
the fringes who can't necessarily relate to that.
And so this is why it's important for us to have different perspectives of God.
So like, yes, this is why we have the God as a parent so we can, so we can have the caretaking
relationship that we may, we would have gotten an a marriage, but we like experience it
from, you know, growing up with parents, we've already ends, what have you.
I mean, personally, I vibe with the fact that God is a friend and ever since I learned that
I can like go through Scripture and be like, oh wow, God was really petty right here.
Yeah, I definitely hear the exasperation in this interaction and I can see the fierce
advocacy, but I also see like he's very fed up with, you know, the other people in this relationship
and he's, you know, letting them know that he's fed up.
So I'm actually shameless plug for the, the super Sunday school Sunday that we're doing.
I'm doing a D&D theme like, the exploration of different perspectives of God and calling
it like role for understanding, but basically the principle is, so, suppose we're doing
spoilers for it, but you, if you've ever had a 20-sided dice, if you've ever seen it, you
can even just try it with like a six-sided dice that comes with a lot of board games.
You can only ever see like maybe half of the sides at one time from one vantage point.
If you wanted to see all the sides, you have to go around like sit, like sit, or stand
(37:48):
somewhere different, but then there's always going to be that one facet that you can't
see because it's like it's facing the ground.
And so in that instance, that's just part of God that we just can't fathom because we
have tiny little limited human brains and can't possibly comprehend the eternity and
immensity of all that.
So yeah, I mean the, the, all this to say that it's important to have multiple perspectives,
there is a reason why some analogies are used so often, but we also have to remember that
again, one size does not fit all.
And so multiple perspectives are needed to sort of get the whole picture.
And what I would also say in addition to that is like in your instance, the way that you
are with your friends and the very serious commitments that you make to your friends and
to the dedication that you have to your friends.
And there is no romantic pretext, which doesn't have to be in marriage anyway, but it would
absolutely parallel to what you're talking about in the relationship with God.
And I would also say God is friend is very overlooked that we often talk about God in marriage
as part of God with family.
And I think that that's misleading because not every marriage leads to biological offspring.
And even in that vein, God wanted people to get off the idolatry of biology because the
(38:15):
idolatry of biology was a very, very real thing.
They thought they had to have sons and they were going to have lineage just through their
children.
And then you have all of the sex rights and the pagan aspects of it that really did idolize
body parts and reproductive power.
So there is absolutely a place and it is more than just a suggestion.
We need to know God is friend.
And I feel that we don't look at God as friend once again because we are often so overshadowing
God as parent.
And there is nothing wrong with seeing God as a parent.
There is nothing wrong with seeing God as a marriage.
There is nothing wrong with seeing God as a friend.
The problem is when we are shutting everything else down and we are only looking at God through
that one thing.
We are not using that dice that you got.
Yeah.
And at the risk of potentially derailing, and this is definitely going to be a conversation
for maybe another podcast.
(38:36):
But I feel like the reason that we overlook God as friend is that in the US at least it is
my experience that we don't value friendship period.
It is pretty much like friends are a temporary thing.
They are placeholders where you learn how to socialize but then as soon as you find your
romantic partner it is like okay I don't need friends anymore.
And that is not.
There is a really long term for it called amatonormativity that is talked about a lot
in the queer spaces especially among people who identify as aromatic.
So like me I don't experience any romantic attraction whatsoever.
It is just like that switch just never flipped in my brain.
And so I take issue with the fact that society places so much emphasis on romantic relationships
because it is like I don't see them as the end all be all.
I need a support system and friends are definitely part of that support system.
But yeah that is definitely going to be like a different topic for another day.
But like I would highly suggest let's talk about more friendship from the pulpit kind
of thing.
Absolutely.
And I mean I can say this that I think and it is actually come from you Chuck that looking
(39:03):
at God is friend is something that I even really will openly admit to not thinking a whole lot
about until this point in my life.
I thought about God as husband a few different times and I will admit to even thinking about
that now and it is something I kind of go through phases where I think about it.
And I would say the major image is God is father is God is an authority figure as God is
the parent in the sky and that is waiting to just kind of throw the lightning bolt your
way.
And we don't when we talk about God is father and then we want to say that God is loving
or God is this or God is that.
I think that we often forget that a lot of the images that we have of our parents roll
over into how we feel about the divine.
And that often means like you had pointed out once that you don't tell your parents everything
good God I don't tell my parents everything
We don't want to tell them everything but I will go when I will talk to God.
And looking at God is friend I mean it's like you talk about even from getting married
the last time.
Damn it I need my friends I don't know about nobody else I mean you know sometimes I think
I need y'all more now than I did before.
And he needs friends and we need to have people in our lives.
(39:25):
And I remember he went through something a couple years ago when I remember sitting back
and saying you know because he didn't really want to talk to me about it but he went and
he talked to his guy friends.
And it occurred to me maybe that's who he wants to talk about with it.
Maybe that's what he feels comfortable doing and maybe there's nothing wrong with that.
And it's the same type of thing that we're talking about with God.
We can take stuff to God that we can't necessarily take to our parents.
And like you say we don't really value friendship we value parents we value spouses we value
family roles but we often don't value friendship.
And about why it's so important in seeing all these different aspects of God we can find
something that we recognize and we see that holiness in that we don't find in some other
area of our life and that's why God is so multifaceted.
I keep in just really I kind of have a thought I'd go for it.
Okay, you pointed to the chat again that's really gonna throw me off.
But I had a thought well you were talking me in about how basically friends or like you
and your husband are kind of friends with all of us.
I platonically ship people and by that I mean it Charlie knows what I mean because in
(39:52):
getting to know my partner I noticed that a lot of their fandoms and interest overlap
with Chuck's.
So I kind of suddenly not so suddenly just be like oh hey you should send and Chuck this
thing.
Oh hey you might want to talk about this hey Chuck like this thing too because I feel like
they would hit it off really well and to my delight and detriment they both they had.
Underline detriment.
Yeah because it's like oh great they get along and then it's like oh great they get along.
And then we gang up on you.
Yeah.
Oh great Chuck get along and y'all talking about stuff and we want to go to the damn restaurant.
And we're leaving the room.
Right.
We're like the other night Joe was teasing me about how much I write and Charlie was like
you know they're right.
I'm like great so my partner and my group is on a partner are both ganging up on me
(40:19):
here.
I have no allies great.
I'll be your ally Nik.
I mean although I've made fun of you for that too so anyway moving on.
You'll be my ally for right now.
(40:40):
Okay I'll be your ally too.
That's is one of the signs of the of a healthy relationship if you and your partner can
be friends with everyone else then that's a stable relationship and that shows that's
because I can't be everything that my partner needs and no one person can be everything
one individual needs.
(41:08):
Fair.
That's idolatry that's unreasonable standards.
We need different types of people different types of relationships with each other but like
with that in a relationship with God we should want other people to have a relationship
with God too.
There is definitely this underlying gate keepyness of if you don't believe XYZ you're
not a Christian or you can't be a part of our denomination what have you.
Once if your relationship with God is that exclusive you just say it but it's kind of mimicking
(41:31):
an abusive relationship where let's say partner A the abuser is trying to isolate you from
your support system your family your friends basically everyone who means something to
you because they're going to know that something's up and they don't want you to catch
that.
So yeah we need we need that individual relationship with God but we also need that
communal relationship with others because that's just honestly just going to make everything
better and that's how we also get other things out of our individual relationship with God.
Does anybody else feel like they need to say ow to that?
(41:52):
Because having been someone who has been in those relationships.
I also never thought about it but we can kind of be abusive in our relationship with
God and gatekeeping and that it's like okay I have my relationship with God I can't have
anybody else involved in it and they might want people to be around or they might want
to tell people about it but it only goes so far and it's always pretty much to say oh
look how wonderful I am or you know look how wonderful God loves me or you know it still
has I guess we could say kind of a gatekeeping heir to it.
Well this was a very fast hour and I'm glad that we picked this topic.
I'm glad that we picked this topic because I think it really brought out the multifaceted
nature of God I think it really brought out a lot of things that we kind of wanted to
talk about and that we wanted to dive into in different ways and so you'll know how this
(42:14):
works.
I typically turn over final thought to the guests so what is something that you guys would
like to leave everybody with?
I will go first because Chuck is giving a head empty no thoughts look but I would
just say find what works for you.
I definitely felt like a bad Christian growing up because I didn't read my Bible every day
I didn't enjoy reading my Bible every day but then lo and behold I discovered you don't
have to.
That's not to say until like never read your Bible again let's not what I'm saying but if
that's not what works for you that's fine if going for a run, bless your heart if you
(42:35):
do run for fun it could never be me.
If running exercising being in nature helps you connect with God more go for it if listening
to worship music or even just music in general for an hour helps you go for it.
Find whatever works and then find ways to cultivate whatever works so that they can keep
working.
But at the same time don't feel like everything is lost if you don't connect in the same
way because that could just mean your relationship is maturing so much that you need something
(42:57):
else.
I think I'm just going to piggyback off of what makes that in closing.
So in the blog post I just wrote about the history of Christianity in India I basically
point out that we have like a one size fits all like we want there to be like a one size
fits all church we don't like the idea of there being different denominations you know
there's disputes about who is the like the one true church and all that which I think
misses the that misses the entire point that God values diversity if you like read the
first chapter or I think it's like the second chapter whichever creation stories like God
(43:20):
made stuff according to their kinds it's like God didn't make just one type of flower He
didn't make just one type of tree God didn't make just one type of human being and so with
the diversity of all that there's got to be a diversity of both relationship types and
then just as an individual you're going to be so different from the next person.
So like what Nik was saying I also wasn't on board with reading my Bible every single day
I was a night owl and it was always oh reach your Bible in the morning couldn't be me I was
(43:42):
always hitting snooze on the alarm clock and like trying to you know there's this the checklist
of things that good Christian should do it's like I was able to like do some things but
most of the others I wasn't and I was always holding myself against this invisible standard
but that's not the checklist is something that we can definitely use to be like hey this
is what works for me some of this doesn't we don't need to use it as a comparison trap
(44:07):
we definitely don't need to shame ourselves for not being able to complete certain tasks
on it it's just guidelines and so in that vein basically like yeah use the checklist
as a starting point but maybe one of the first things that you should do is like detach
the shame that comes from hmm you know like not not reading your Bible every day like it is
(44:30):
still important but you know God's everywhere and if we really believe in the power of the Holy
Spirit and God can reach us through anything wow I don't even know what to say to that because
I was going to add something I don't typically do this but I was going to add in here in
addition to kind of what you both said is to also be open to reflections of God in different
(44:51):
ways and different relationships with God maybe let your light chuck and marriage just
doesn't do it for you and there's nothing wrong with that and I think it's important that
we say that there is nothing wrong with that different people we are all different maybe
God is friend is going to speak to you maybe if you really want a parental guidance in your
life maybe God as a parent is going to work for you and there are more reflections of God
(45:16):
as different forms of parents than just Father in Scripture now you do have to look and you
do have to kind of be open to seeing it but there are other images in there there is God
as Mother there is God kind of is just a general parent without a specification of gender they
do exist in Scripture maybe you know God as the Spirit which we don't often talk about the
(45:40):
Spirit you know basically is kind of female if we're really going to do the grammar and the
It clearly has a place and it's, and it's, it generally applies.
words and then you get into the New Testament it's more non-binary maybe the Spirit speaks
to you more that image then some of these other more traditional figures or you know understanding
God is provider or understanding God as the God who sees you opening up to more than just
(46:05):
one version of God will really help you to understand God more diversely and more intimately
Now I thank you all for being on here and how can everybody get in contact with you all?
Words wouldn't come my goodness through my website I've got a nifty little contact thing
I'm not very active on other social media platforms so you go to beloved - not - broken.com
(46:28):
the questions tab that's my contact form you don't have to submit a question it's mostly just
there that if you do have a question you can find a place to ask it but yeah hit me up and we can
talk in there.
And for me again my website is nikfits.com that's nikfits.com there's a contact form on there where you can
(46:52):
message me there's also only to my link tree which has only to my other socials I am admittedly
not super active on Instagram right now I'm more active from like take talking to this guy so if you
want to you know chat with me on either of those platforms feel free.
(47:13):
Well I thank you both for being on here and really do appreciate you guys being a really big part
of season six as we said when we started we're going to be getting into season seven soon we're
going to start recording for that and we know that y'all will be back for that and we already have a
(47:37):
lot of very exciting things planned for that and so no as we say this this is not goodbye this is
just until we get back for season seven which will return in September so as I said when we started
go catch up on some of the things you missed maybe listen to some other episodes from past seasons
(48:00):
we've got over 200 episodes up I think that as of the recording of this we have 204 episodes released
and that is an incredible body over these six years and we're really really excited that we're
starting to move into different territories so definitely check that out and let's just start
(48:24):
here I'd like to give you some information for some resources that might really help you out with
some of what we're talking about today so I'm actually going to recommend three books of mine the
first two go together the last one is kind of something that also might help out so I'm recommending
(48:51):
my book ministering to LGBTQ+ and those who love them a primer for queer theology that's ministering
to LGBTQ+ a primer for queer theology which ministers Nik and Charlie also wrote the forward for
(49:13):
and so we really do encourage you to get that now the reason why I'm recommending that for this
podcast is because in the book I look at different expressions of God now I don't necessarily look at
(49:41):
as diverse as we might have talked today like provider and all that sort of stuff but I do look at God
from different perspectives of gender and that there are actually a lot of different expressions of
the divine everything from the traditional image of father or God is male to female to non-binary to
(50:15):
even a little bit of gender queer if we really start to study the grammar and the words involved
and along with that book there's also a workbook so it's the ministering to LGBTQ+ and those who love
(50:40):
them a primer for queer theology workbook you can get both on amazon.com look me up dr. Lee Ann B Marino
and all my titles come up now the other one I'm going to recommend because we kind of
(51:15):
got into some of the wordplay is my book the divine feminine a treatise on the female in Christian
spirituality and the reason I mentioned that book is because that started out as a very innocent word
(51:45):
study that turned into something else entirely and so if you are looking for something that really
kind of expands your mind on different aspects of God definitely check that book out as I said before
(52:14):
look me up on amazon wherever books are sold all my titles come up there's definitely something
for everybody go out there and check it out today also check out my patheos column leadership on fire
(52:47):
at patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire that's patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire and the reason I
recommend that is because that is a blog for all things leadership so there's a lot of resources on
(53:24):
there whether you're interested in leadership or in leadership want to learn more about it that is
your go-to do all kinds of different educational things on there to help people learn and grow and
(54:00):
develop in their relationship with God and leadership and as leaders so go and check that out today
(54:26):
also if you're interested in connecting with me @kingdompowernow across social media feel
free to do it feel free to add me on facebook, tiktok, twitter for however much longer we have tiktok
instagram i'm going to admit much like the others i'm not really active everywhere but you can reach
(54:51):
out we can have a conversation let's find out what you want to talk about in season seven let's
find out what you want to hear more of on this program connect with me @kingdompowernow also
if you are interested in the world of counterculture Christianity feel free to visit my website at
kingdompowernow.org that's kingdompowernow.org interested in seminary that's entirely affordable and
(55:13):
you can do it from home and it's actually applicable to what you might do in ministry feel free to
(55:37):
visit acts176.org that's acts176.org for apostolic covenant theological seminary and if you are in the
Charlotte North Carolina area and want to continue the conversation we had today want to learn more
(56:04):
about God want to learn more about different aspects of God want to learn about developing those
(56:28):
different principles in order to help you grow in your relationship with God then join us at sanctuary
at welcomeinthisplace.org that's welcomeinthisplace.org and if you have questions that are
(56:52):
not answered on the site feel free to reach out we will be happy to get back to you and this is
(57:21):
Apostle dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you and closing that we can be gay key to with our relationship with
God even in our own minds even before we ever mention anything to anybody else we can have walls and
(58:02):
blockages in that based on what we think we know but we really don't know so let's let down those
walls today so that we can learn more about God and can become deeper in our relationship with him
(58:26):
until next time be blessed
thank you for joining us on the kingdom now podcast today i pray it is proven to be a
(58:53):
blessing in your life to learn more about this work ask a question submit feedback advertise with
us be a guest or donate to support this work as our podcast is sponsored by listeners like you
visit my website which contains essential information projects and looks for other points of
(59:19):
contact around the web at kingdompowernow.org also if you are in our area and would like
to visit sanctuary international fellowship tabernacle visit welcomeinthisplace.org
until next time this is Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you that the kingdom of God is
(59:44):
within you and that means the kingdom is now
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Welcome to Kingdom Now, the podcast featuring Faith with an Edge, as we celebrate the Kingdom
(00:53):
of God within you.
I am your host, Dr. Lee Ann Marino, apostle, author, podcaster, professor and theologian,
and founder of Spitfire Apostolic Ministries and all the works that go along with it.
I am excited to share this program with you as we explore the ins and outs of Counterculture
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my North Carolina studio to Sanctuary and Beyond, and powerful insights here for now as
we turn the world upside down everywhere we go.
Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, happy whatever time of day this is wherever
(01:58):
you are and to our listeners in name of country.
Thailand, it's one of our new ones, right?
I did Thailand last time.
When I was on with you actually, hmm?
Right.
Guam
To our listeners in Guam we say hi because most of the people in Guam speak English, so anyway,
(02:20):
and in all the other English speaking countries, we're going to say hi.
I need to learn how to say hello in new languages because we have a whole bunch of new countries
and I very openly admit I do not know what your native languages are and so I have to learn.
And that will be a wonderful project for our hiatus, which is coming up.
And this is Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino and I welcome you to this edition of the Kingdom now podcast
(02:43):
and I am your host here as the Spitfire serving as the voice of counter-cultural Christianity
where we feature the theme of faith with an edge.
And if you would like to learn more about the world of counter-cultural Christianity, feel
free to visit my website at kingdompowernow.org and I do encourage you to keep an eye on that
because we're going to be making some updates in the next few months.
So as I just said a moment ago, this is actually our final episode before we go on our summer
(03:07):
hiatus and we will miss you all terribly.
And what I encourage everybody to do as I usually do is to go back and listen to anything
that you've missed.
So this gives you a chance to catch up and maybe kind of figure out where you're at and what's
going on and when it came time to talk about something that we really wanted to leave with
(03:27):
our listeners, none of us who are on here had any idea what we wanted to say.
And that's kind of like when somebody asks you where you want to eat and all of a sudden
you can't think of a single restaurant you've ever been to in your entire life or like
hey gee what's your favorite song?
What's a song?
(03:48):
Okay.
It's like all of a sudden we have no recollection of what to do.
Well that happens with topics for podcasts as well.
And so that happened to us but sometimes inspiration finds itself in an interesting place.
And a conversation that we had yesterday on the holiness of God led into a conversation
(04:09):
about marriage as a type of that relationship and that really in essence we do kind of have
a marriage with God.
And why it's really important that we see God is more than just father or parent figure
because it gives us more of an idea of the nature of God and who God is and what kind of
a relationship we should have.
So we're going to be talking about all these different things because I think that they
(04:32):
really do offer some interesting insights into what we need to know more about God.
I feel sometimes it's church that our relationships with God are encouraged to be very monotone
that because it's a lot easier to just talk about God is father and stick that rhythm
(04:53):
in a song 50,000 times that we forget that God is other things and that other relationships
that we have really do reflect other things with God.
But before we get too much into any of this I want to introduce my returning guests.
We have ministers Nik Lewis and Charlie Reep both from Sanctuary Charlotte and I'm going
to turn this over so that y'all can introduce yourselves so go for it.
(05:18):
Oh are you pointing to me?
Somebody talk.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
I'm scrolling through my blog post and then I come back and I see Chuck pointing to the
chat so I don't know what's happening.
Well this is I'm pointing to the left.
(05:41):
It looks like I'm pointing to your screen but I guess not.
You were definitely pointing to the chat I am over.
Or actually to me.
Yeah.
Okay.
Anyway I just went.
All right.
Y'all go.
Okay.
I am minister Nik Lewis.
Pronouns they/them.
Returning guest to this podcast.
(06:02):
If you've listened for any amount of time you probably heard my voice at some point on
this thing.
I am forgetting how words work.
I'm a professional.
I have nothing on my mind
A website.
I do have a website.
It's NikFits.com.
That's N-I-K-F-I-T-S.com.
It's mostly a blog.
I blog about different things like how fandom culture of any fanfiction can relate to
(06:31):
Christianity.
I give some other personal, more churchy spiritual insights as well.
If you want to follow me, there is a link to the contact page for that site.
You can find me on TikTok for however much longer we have it.
Instagram, bluesky, wherever else I have on there.
(06:54):
Cool.
I'm minister Charlie Reep.
Also they/them pronoun user.
Also returning guest.
Also been on a lot of things.
I also have a website with a kind of long URL.
So it is beloved-not-broken.com.
(07:15):
It is mostly a library of resources for, I would say, mostly queer questioning and deconstructing
Christians.
I also have a blog, but it's a little hard to find.
I've updated the homepage and they get a little bit easier to find.
But I will talk about anything from fandom stuff to the most recent blog post I did was
(07:35):
the history of Christianity for a seminary assignment.
So it is streamlined all over the place.
Well, I think that that's very interesting and everybody definitely should go check
out your sites and your blogs and all the things that you're talking about over there.
(07:56):
So I'll start by kind of throwing in here what started the whole conversation as I mentioned
earlier.
For those who are not familiar with the podcast or the history, I actually have a history
in the holiness movement.
Or I guess we could say in the descendants of the holiness movement, I was certainly not
around when the original thing was happening.
And just in case, you know, I'm not like 200 years old.
(08:18):
But anyway, I actually had a long history and actually a complicated history with the
holiness movement in terms of its descendants, specifically Pentecostal holiness and denominations
that would fall under that heading.
And one of the major things that I've often said is that I might have been quote unquote
(08:41):
practicing what I was taught was holiness, but I never really understood it.
I didn't have the first clue of what it meant.
I thought that it was about hair and pants and not wearing makeup and using only the King
James Bible.
And you know, not being on the internet too much and not really watching a whole lot of TV
and definitely not smoking or drinking or dancing to a certain extent.
I mean, because most of us danced in church, but as far as the movements pretty much went,
(09:07):
I had a long list of do's and don'ts.
And I really didn't understand the concept that they were trying to teach us.
And I was at work yesterday.
So I was at work minding my own business, driving between assignments.
And all of a sudden it really kind of dropped on me that we talk about that we're called
to be holy because God is holy.
(09:29):
And the term holiness literally means separate or different or set apart.
And so in other words, that means a couple of things when it comes to God.
The first thing that it means is that God is separate from all other things in the universe.
So from all idols.
And so it is an anti-idolatory statement that God is separate from creation.
(09:52):
God is above any other thing that we put in our lives above any other god.
God is God.
And so God is separate from that.
But it also means that God is different.
And so all of a sudden it like dropped that we cannot go to God and find more of what we
find in the world.
If we're going to God and we're truly receiving from God, it's going to be something
(10:16):
that's different.
It's going to be something that we don't find anywhere else because that is truly what
holiness means is it means something about being different.
And I don't know if we can embrace the idea of holiness for ourselves until we embrace
it for God.
And having started that, I'm going to let somebody else jump in here and talk with some
(10:39):
of their thoughts about kind of that starting point so we can start to veer off here.
All right, I will talk first, I guess, because I have also thought about kind of how if we
have an individual relationship with God and how our personal relationships with other
(11:03):
people don't look the same as with someone else, like my relationship with Charlie is different
from my relationship with Lee Ann.
We are both we are all platonic partners, ministers, friends, what have you, but even still our relationship
dynamic is different individually.
And that's something we don't teach when it comes to God.
(11:25):
For some reason that gets lost in translation, we think that we have to pray a certain way,
like when I was growing up, I heard constantly that I need to be down on my knees to pray.
And I always felt like a bad Christian because it just hurts to be out my knees for like more
than 10 seconds and I'm being generous with that.
(11:46):
So that kind of left me out there as but and especially people who like can't kneel for
whatever other reason.
And you have to read your Bible every day, you have to pray in the morning, pray at night,
go to church every Sunday, go to all the services.
If you have like two or three, it's very formulaic and that's not how relationships should
(12:11):
work, but we prescribe that to our relationship with God and it doesn't really work.
Okay, now I have thoughts before it was head empty, but now when you said prescribed and all
this stuff, I kept thinking about the phrase one size fits all and how with a lot of things,
(12:33):
I think about with my job to any sort of political decision that gets made, we wish that there
was a one size fits all solution because that's easy, but people are very complex.
Like Nik was saying, we have entirely different relationship dynamics between two different
people, like even within our group, our little group of three here, it's, we have completely
(13:00):
different dynamics from each other and we can't apply a one size fits all approach to
even three of us, much less anything bigger, especially to church, but I feel like somewhere
along the line of church history or whatever, there became a, I guess an obsession with trying
(13:27):
to find the easy route, trying to find the one thing that would fix all ills and we've
lost sight of the individuality of people.
And then if I can actually kind of piggyback on the church history bit because we are both
in seminary, me and Charlie, taught by the lovely Lee Ann here.
(13:50):
Tada!
I feel like a lot of it is rooted in fear of losing people because we have definitely seen
throughout church history that one particular group will be in power or have the majority
and all these other little different groups will sprout up.
And so the people who have the most sway are like, oh no, they're preaching something slightly
(14:16):
different than us, they're heretics, they're going to lead people astray.
And sometimes it's not even that big a deal.
So I get the concern about making sure everyone is being taught correctly, but that also swings
widely into the other direction of losing individuality like Charlie said.
(14:40):
What I'm thinking of as you both are talking is something that Chuck often says and that's
that many churches try to appeal to the lowest common denominator.
And in other words, they go on the assumption, first of all, that everybody who's there
doesn't know anything, which is a dangerous assumption, particularly in Western society.
(15:02):
I mean, I can understand that maybe if you're somewhere where Christianity is not so prevalent
or hasn't been prevalent, you know, where if they didn't grow up with veggie tales and,
you know, Jonah riding on the back of a whale, which was a picture in a Sunday school book.
I mean, and I remember when I found that I went, oh my God, that's so inaccurate.
You know, like he's surfing on the back of the whale and the whale was spouting up, you
(15:26):
know, and it was this old thing.
And Nik is thinking about this.
Because I think I've seen something like that.
You've seen something like it.
I didn't make it up.
I keep telling people, this is not the mandala effect.
I really do remember this.
No, I think it was like in a kid's book or something like that.
It was in like a children's something for children.
Yeah, was the whale yellow.
(15:50):
I want to say it kind of was like a greenish, yellow, yes.
It kind of had like a yellow tinge to it, but it was had green in it too.
It was ridiculous, whatever the hell it was.
But you know, if you grow up in a world like that, I mean, I'm, I think it's safe to say
you may not have an accurate view of Christianity or you might only know what you've grown up with,
(16:13):
but to assume that people don't know anything is wrong.
And then you have that they really only take you so far because of the fear that Nick is
talking about.
People are so afraid today.
Preachers, denominations that they are going to lose more people that people are not going
to find them engaging that people are not going to want to stay with them.
(16:37):
But they're not encouraging people to grow spiritually.
And I mean, if you were that afraid of people growing spiritually, then you need to be doing
some different church because us growing spiritually should be what we go to church to do.
We shouldn't be necessarily always outgrowing the church.
Now are some ministries for different things?
Absolutely.
I'm not questioning that, challenging that, making any sort of problem with that, but it
(17:03):
can't be that every church only goes so far and then everybody stops and then you're
at the end of the cliff.
We need to have some development somewhere and that starts with expanding people's relationship
and view of God so that they can develop and grow into more of one with him.
(17:27):
Well, everybody got quiet.
I mean, if we're using this time to segue, to talk about different relationships again,
I actually did a blog post in, well, 2023, I didn't realize it had been done all called
the, called how relationships teach us to love God.
(17:50):
And I talk about how different types of relationships can give us different insights
into God's nature and how we can relate to God.
Hmm.
Familiar, found familial, professional, romantic, platonic, queerplatonic and to kind of
time I'll do the--
Which this blog?
(18:10):
Yeah.
This was a great blog.
Okay, go on.
Awesome.
Well, thank you.
I think I also put it on LinkedIn if I remember right.
One of the few I posted there, but anyway.
And to kind of piggyback off what you were saying, we had, it's, it doesn't really make sense
to have a relationship with, with somebody and then just kind of plateau.
(18:34):
Like you don't go into a professional career, develop a certain set of skills and then
just be like, all right, I'm cool.
And you don't try to learn anything to advance or move to a different job path if that's
what you want to do.
You don't just make one friend and be like, okay, I'm good at master friendship.
Like you don't just get--
(18:56):
Yeah, I'll be out.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, some people, I will say in rare instances, may date one person, marry them and then that's
the only relationship they have in their entire life in which case, great.
Love that for you.
That was not me.
And it's not a lot of people.
(19:16):
So you don't just date one person and be like, ah, yes, I have mastered the romantic relationships.
Yay.
I have gotten an A-plus and this is normal and good to achieve.
Like that's not-- it's not how relationships work.
You need to--
[LAUGHTER]
I quoted that in my therapist yesterday.
(19:36):
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
We need to have different types of relationships and different people within those relationships
who learn things about others, about ourselves.
And we need to spend more time with God, learning about God's nature, the things that God does
and how that relates to us and humanity in general.
(19:58):
We can't just-- I don't know.
We can't just like read the Bible once and be like, ah, yes, I understand God perfectly.
[LAUGHTER]
I have to tell this story now.
Okay.
Please, though.
And then you can go back to what you're saying.
Oh, no, I was done.
Yeah.
I lead a group with somebody else.
(20:20):
I helped them out with a moderation on Facebook and one day someone came in the group and said,
oh, why I read the whole Bible like three years ago and I have it pretty much memorized now?
And I screen shot it and sent it to the owner of the group and he said, oh, I said, I said,
(20:42):
how many times have you been through the Bible?
How many times am I still going through the Bible?
But I have the whole thing memorized.
Oh, okay.
You know, that was right.
That made me think of--
As well as say, how often do we be like, oh, yeah, there's that one person, Paul.
It's like somewhere in the Old Testament.
It's in one of the prophets.
(21:03):
Shut up.
And, okay, but--
Or I love those times when we go, oh, it's in the New Testament and then it's like, you
know, in Second Kings 27 or--
I don't think there's a Second Kings 27.
It's in some-- I don't want to be that guy who said Ephesians 22.
Okay.
So it's in Second Kings 2.
There we go.
I know there's a 2 in there.
(21:23):
You know, verse 4.
And, you know, we're like, oh, right.
Okay.
Yeah.
I guess that's not the New Testament.
Okay.
I think this is one of the Corinthians and it's in like Hebrews.
Yeah, right.
Okay, but that's still funny.
That's what--
Actually, that made me think of that and we're all laughing and we're hysterical because,
(21:46):
you know, we go through the Bible over and over again.
I mean, and I know that we've even admitted that certain parts of the Bible are harder
for us to get through.
We often have questions about passages.
It leads us to do a lot of deep dives, but this relates to what you're saying about your
relationship thing.
Okay.
First of all, not everybody is into reading the Bible every day like it's a novel.
(22:11):
And I'm saying that very sincerely as someone who does read the Bible every day.
So, I'm doing that because that really helps me.
And in addition to doing the Bible reading every day, I also have a whole thing where my
entire Bible is that I preach from and I often study from are highlighted and underlined
(22:34):
in a bunch of different colors and I even use a straight edge.
And as Chuck pointed out to me, that is not how normal people spend their time.
And I just kind of looked at Chuck like, you know, that I was just, you know, what the hell?
You know, because to me, I've been doing it for years.
And I've even started doing it every day.
Now, I don't sit down and do the whole book every day.
(22:56):
I think I better clarify that.
I'm not doing 27 or 46 or, you know, 66 chapters at once.
But what happened was I would sit and I would do a book in the afternoon on a Saturday.
And I started to find that my body was really hurting when I went to get up because I'd
be sitting like that for so many hours.
So I said, okay, I'm going to try doing five chapters a night and actually that's really
(23:19):
been working well for me.
So not only am I reading the Bible, now I'm highlighting and underlining it in another Bible.
And it's a totally different passage than often where I'm working.
But that works for me.
Now that may not work for somebody else.
I get a lot out of doing the Bible reading in the chronological order.
And I print that out on blueletterbible.org.
(23:40):
And I read it in different translations every year in order to get different things out
of it.
This year, I'm in the message Bible.
That works really good for me.
Not so much so for the other two that are on this podcast.
I do remember this is a podcast.
I almost said this call.
Okay.
This podcast.
Look, it's Thursday and it's 8.30.
(24:01):
Okay.
Podcast.
Maybe one gets more revelatory in sight.
Maybe one gets a lot out of, hey, I'm going to read a couple of chapters and do a deep dive
on everything that I notice in it.
And I want to go learn all the culture and all the history and all the context.
And each one of us does it a little bit differently, but we get a lot out of it the way that we're
(24:24):
doing it.
And that's what makes our relationship kind of work with God in a different way is we
have to find what's going to keep us engaged.
The next thing I'm going to say is that just like you talk about very, very few people just
say, oh, hey, I dated somebody once when I was 14 and I'm done now, I mastered it.
(24:47):
I'm not going to do any better with anything else.
If you approach your personal relationships that same way, whether it's marriage, which
marriage is most likely going to come up again because of what we're talking about
today.
It's marriage, whether it's friendships, whether it's your church relationship with your
leader, with God, with your participation in your church community.
(25:11):
If you're just kind of sitting back and saying, all right, I got saved.
I'm done now.
Come to me, papa kind of thing.
And you just sit back and wait for everybody to just everything to fall at your feet.
You're not going to ever get anywhere with God.
I'm being looked at very badly right now.
(25:39):
It was the come to me, papa.
I'm sorry.
Because that's what people do.
It's like come and find me now.
Yeah, you're going to rickroll.
It was just the phrase.
Are we all okay now?
(26:03):
We can take another 20 seconds.
Everybody just got Rick Roll, but I have to edit it out.
Okay.
You successfully rickrolled me.
Congratulations.
Okay.
I feel very good about myself now.
Okay.
Anyway.
Okay.
One podcast.
I have a good time.
Are you having a good time?
(26:24):
Aren't you having a good time?
I was going to say, this is something we can do.
We can all lose the game.
There we go.
That's something that's not copy-written.
Okay.
Anyway, back to more serious things about God and Bible and it's in Paul.
Okay.
(26:46):
So saying that about relationship mastery and things of that nature.
So people are going to say to us, how can I do what you're talking about?
So how do people start with this?
(27:06):
Well, I will jump in and say that by the time this airs, we will have done a super Sunday
school Sunday.
Yes, we will.
Yeah, that will be recorded and live streamed on Facebook and eventually uploaded to YouTube.
(27:28):
So that is something that you can watch.
I know one thing I'm going to, or what I'm going to be talking about as soon as I do more
research on it is the revelation that I kind of parallel play with God.
And if you don't know what parallel play means, kind of think about how if you're in a room
(27:51):
with a cat and like you're sitting on the couch and maybe the cat comes in on the couch with
you and then just does nothing to really interact with you, but still just does their own
thing in the same space that you are, that's parallel play.
It's like two people being in a room on their phones, maybe saying words every 10 minutes
(28:11):
or something like that, but it's not super engaging, super direct.
And I say I kind of do that with God because, and I joke about this a lot, that's I watch
a lot of anime, YouTube, things of that nature, K-pop.
And I'll be watching something because I want to turn my brain off.
(28:33):
I don't want to think about things because I think all the words at work and I do the thinking
at work.
I don't want to think of work.
And then one time I'm watching Attack on Titan and God drops us like, hey, this is kind of
like spiritual warfare and I'm just like, why?
Why would you do this to me?
(28:55):
And I did.
Why not doing a whole Sunday school about Attack on Titan spiritual warfare that made sense?
But for me, it's not me actively going to watch a thing and being like, oh yes, let's
see the spiritual insights I can get from this today.
Wow.
It just kind of happens.
(29:16):
But for me, that works and Lee Ann shut up in advance.
It especially works for things like one of my current obsessions at the moment,
where I told you shut up in advance.
I have done Sunday school sermons and many blog posts based off of Epic the musical, which
(29:41):
on the one hand, yes, I should probably stop.
It should probably stop yapping about it at some point.
But at the same time, it helps me a little bit.
I think you shouldn't.
Okay, fine.
Nik will remember this for the record.
I think that you should keep talking about it because you're getting a lot out of it.
(30:02):
And I really enjoy giving you a hard time.
So go on.
Okay, fair.
I guess I shouldn't have thought of that.
But also because I listened to the soundtrack and on Godly amount of times, the revelations
that I've gotten from certain songs stick with me.
Like I've done a sermon and blog post on ruthlessness, one of the songs in the musical as
(30:24):
boundaries.
So whenever I listen to that song, I'm reminded that, hey, you do need to set boundaries.
Sometimes you're going to be viewed as a jerk, but they are necessary and in some instances,
it is mercy upon yourself to do that instead of continuing in psychosome patterns and relationships.
That ultimately hurts you.
(30:46):
And they're also biblical.
So.
Well, and I think that that's a good thing.
But in other words, finding God in everything that you do.
Hey, it's like my guy, brother Lawrence.
Okay, expound.
He, okay, let me refer back to the blog post because I do not remember exactly.
(31:12):
Okay, so he was a monk who lived from 1610 to 1691 and was originally from, I'm probably
going to butcher this pronunciation.
Hériménil, near Lunéville in Lorraine, a Frenchman.
He was from France, just saying France.
He was from France.
Basically.
And there is a book called The Practice of the Presence of God that I loved, which kind
(31:36):
of contains some of the letters he wrote.
And he talks about how he's going about his daily duties and like praying and thinking
about God while doing the dishes.
And I really appreciated that because it made the relationship with God so much more attainable
and practical like you don't have to, you can't, you don't just have to go to church to
(31:58):
find God.
You can find God wherever and whenever, including watching a piece of media that's one of the
most depressing and the elistic things I've ever seen.
So, I just have a ruthlessness stuck in my head, but you know, she is so to stand.
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Well, it's better than Rick Astley's never going to give you up.
So, I'll just go back and forth in my brain for a bit.
But now I figured I was actually kind of pondering my relationship with God like as you're
talking, Nik, about like how yours looks like.
So I've been thinking of God as a friend, but it's more recently I've been realizing it's
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more of like a long distance friendship because there's an intangibility that comes with
like having faith.
Like God isn't a person who can stand in your living room.
Like God can't necessarily give you a hug like your best friend on the street can.
You hear from God differently than somebody who's like, "Talking on the phone or something,
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but there's enough of a presence and then there's enough of I guess spiritual insight that
comes that reminds me of like, okay, if I have like, for instance, I've got a best friend
who lives across the state.
We unfortunately haven't talked in a while, but you know, we're still friends, everything's
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so good.
It's like how it is with God.
It's like we have more of a like we can go almost maybe like a few days without necessarily
talking.
I mean, shoot, I pretty much like I journal every day and it's basically like I'm sending
long emails to God where I'm just like, "Hey, my job sucks.
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Can you get us out of here?"
Or I'll be like, "Hey, I'm just really grateful for stuff.
Thank you."
And all that stuff.
So it's not necessarily like that back and forth conversation, but it is still communication.
It's still an exchange.
So that's, yeah, so that's, I mean, I'm still working out with it.
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So oh, God's your pen pal.
Yeah, God is my pen pal.
That's a great, that's a great suggestion, Nik.
Yeah, I did have a pen pal way back in the day, but yeah.
I loved pen pals and people who say that they don't really become real friendships are
wrong.
I think that's a wonderful analogy to say that it's like, oh, it's your pen pal.
Yeah, because it's like you had an encounter at one point in time with God and you're like,
I don't want to lose that experience.
I want to keep like the dynamic we had going.
You just can't necessarily do it in the same way that you did in the past with that experience.
Like you can't necessarily repeat that same experience, but you know, the praying and
the worship and the spiritual insights and stuff.
It's, yeah, pretty much like a modern pen pal type of situation because I do more than
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just like journal.
I sometimes get like Nik, I get the spiritual insights mostly from work occasionally.
I'll get them from stuff I'm interested in like some video games or movies or something like
that, but a lot of the times it is through situations happening in my life and then I'll
also get insight from reading the chronological Bible at Lee Ann's suggestion, which I'm very
grateful for because the chronological Bible is boom, mind blowing, changing for me because
I'm like, Hey, now I can actually do it.
I can't read the order in which stuff happens and it makes a lot more sense in my brain instead
of going from like the end of Genesis or no, maybe even like maybe the first few books
of the Bible are a bad example because they are all kind of connected.
But like going from when I eventually get to the prophets, like going from I think Isaiah
to Jeremiah, I'm thinking like they're all successive and they are not.
Right.
Learning in seminary that some prophets came before all of them and I was like, wait, wait,
are they not in chronological order?
They're not in chronological order and I was like, Oh no, I can't comprehend.
So that was just a long day tribe of, Hey, chronological Bible really helps me engage with
scripture and through that God speaks to me.
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That's cool
That's very cool.
I'm kind of, I would say in the middle of the two of you in the vein of what you're
talking about for inspiration, I get a lot out of my daily Bible reading and out of my chronological
study Bibles and out of all that kind of work.
I really do get a lot out of it and I love it and I also love doing the deep dives and
I would also say that I also get the inspiration.
Now I'm going to openly admit that my fandoms are a little bit more limited than y'alls.
Some of that I'm actually coming to see some of that was how I was raised because it was
very much understood that when we reached a certain age, we didn't have fandoms anymore.
That, you know, the major thing it was okay to kind of be interested in more music groups,
but like, you know, we didn't watch Disney movies and we didn't do certain things and you
weren't supposed to like cartoons and this is nothing saying people can't like animae.
I'm not saying that I'm just saying this was how I was pretty much brought up.
And so getting into stuff is actually really, really difficult for me.
I will often rely back on the same shows I've watched 20,000 billion times and I've also
learned that's very neurodivergent of me because there is a comfort I take in the fact that
I pretty much know what's going to happen, but at the same time that also makes it so I
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kind of pick up on stuff I didn't pick up on before.
An example of this would be in my chronological study Bible, I'm doing for Samuel and I am
not going to lie.
When I get to the historical books, I tend to skim them because it's not always the most
interesting reading for me as maybe somebody who had this big, deep prophetic revelation, but
I actually really took some time to read the story of David and Saul and I'm still in
that now and recognizing stuff I didn't notice before.
For example, that David's brothers were the ones who were not able to slay Elias and that
when it came time to call up on David, they didn't want him around and even David at one
point says, "Can I not even talk about it?"
You know that they kind of really brushed him aside and kind of really acted the whole
entire time like they didn't want him there and given my own situation with my siblings,
which I'm not going to get into, and the way I've seen a lot of people with their siblings,
that dismissiveness, that I'm going to say very human experience really spoke to me and
I not gone over the same thing 50 billion times, I probably wouldn't have picked up on it.
And relationships being that being said are not just about doing new things all the time.
And what I'm going to throw in here as somebody who has been married not once but twice, that
marriage is not all about new and different things.
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If anything, it's about a lot of repeated things and kind of in our concept of holiness,
really learning somebody that up close and personal and that differently in a way that
other people do.
Yeah, I guess I have a thought to piggyback off that I was waiting for it to fully formulate.
I've seen posts they typically talk about romantic relationships, but I think they can apply to
any that basically once you get into a relationship, you don't stop doing the things that you did
to get your partner to begin with.
Like if they were, I don't know, if you guys like wrote each other cute sticking notes to
leave in each other's lunch containers or whatever throughout the day, and that really meant
a lot to you, you don't stop doing that.
And one thing that my partner and I have been doing even since before we got together
is basically sending kind of good morning messages like, hey, hope you slept, well, hope
your day goes well, hope you're feeling okay, things like that.
And that is something that we have not stopped doing in over the two years.
We've known each other.
So that being said, it's not always kind of repeating what Lee Ann said, you don't always
have to do something new.
(36:12):
You need a mix, but you definitely don't neglect kind of the quote unquote mundane boring
aspects of it.
Like even though I do get revelations from things outside of the Bible, I still have to read
the Bible every now and then to give revelation from something.
And I need to be able to, if I'm going to preach, I can't just be like, oh, yeah, here are
the things.
And then for lack of a better way to put it, not side my sources.
So you got to still do the basics of Christianity, I would say, but also don't get so bored
with the routine things that you kind of lose sight of how important they are to begin with.
Wow.
It's kind of like, yeah, I would relate it to singing because I am tentatively getting back
into vocal practice.
I need to work a system with it
But anyway, there is a lot of basics that you need to keep in mind for advancing your
technique, but if you're so focused on advancing your technique, it can be easy to forget about
the little stuff.
Or if you're trying to figure out what's going wrong with the more advanced technique, some
of the things you would need to think of is, okay, did I have enough breath support?
(36:40):
Was I singing for my diaphragm?
Was my throat open enough?
Did I have enough space in my mouth?
Like things like that.
And a lot of the times it's something as simple as forgetting one of the basics.
From other times, it's more complicated than that, but I know definitely if I've been doing
a vocal practice or whatever, sometimes it's just like, okay, I didn't breathe enough
there.
Let's rewind and try that again.
I think that's fair.
And I love how you talked about you and your partner and about that particular facet
of things because one of the things the Bible does compare us to in our relationship with
God is as a marriage.
And whether married or not, good principles for marriage start before people ever get to
the altar.
They start before we ever really take that leap.
And if we really want to be serious about our relationship with God, we can learn a lot
from that type of illustration simply because our relationships with other people teach us
about our relationship with God and the issue of God as sovereign, God as our superior,
God as our Lord, God as the God above all other gods is an idolatry issue.
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And when you do with marriage or when you do with things, if you're having the same exact
type of relationship with everybody else that you have with your spouse, something's not
right there.
Now, I'm on a very carefully say that as somebody who is my spouse and I, we are friends with
everybody else.
And there is actually, I'm going to say a queerplatonic element with everybody involves
that it's definitely a thing, but there is still an aspect to it or still ways that he
knows me that everybody else does not.
And we need to be willing to enter into that kind of place with God if we want to know
God for ourselves.
And we don't get there if we don't take some of these steps to try and know him better.
If I can sort of butt in because I think he brought up a really good point about how there's
a reason why we compare our relationship to God with a marriage and like that's what,
that is the analogy that's been used in Scripture, that's been used from pulpits and stuff like
that.
It clearly has a place and it's generally applies, but I will say like as somebody who does
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not have a partner and isn't interested in getting married, there are some of us on
the fringes who can't necessarily relate to that.
And so this is why it's important for us to have different perspectives of God.
So like, yes, this is why we have the God as a parent so we can, so we can have the caretaking
relationship that we may, we would have gotten an a marriage, but we like experience it
from, you know, growing up with parents, we've already ends, what have you.
I mean, personally, I vibe with the fact that God is a friend and ever since I learned that
I can like go through Scripture and be like, oh wow, God was really petty right here.
Yeah, I definitely hear the exasperation in this interaction and I can see the fierce
advocacy, but I also see like he's very fed up with, you know, the other people in this relationship
and he's, you know, letting them know that he's fed up.
So I'm actually shameless plug for the, the super Sunday school Sunday that we're doing.
I'm doing a D&D theme like, the exploration of different perspectives of God and calling
it like role for understanding, but basically the principle is, so, suppose we're doing
spoilers for it, but you, if you've ever had a 20-sided dice, if you've ever seen it, you
can even just try it with like a six-sided dice that comes with a lot of board games.
You can only ever see like maybe half of the sides at one time from one vantage point.
If you wanted to see all the sides, you have to go around like sit, like sit, or stand
(37:48):
somewhere different, but then there's always going to be that one facet that you can't
see because it's like it's facing the ground.
And so in that instance, that's just part of God that we just can't fathom because we
have tiny little limited human brains and can't possibly comprehend the eternity and
immensity of all that.
So yeah, I mean the, the, all this to say that it's important to have multiple perspectives,
there is a reason why some analogies are used so often, but we also have to remember that
again, one size does not fit all.
And so multiple perspectives are needed to sort of get the whole picture.
And what I would also say in addition to that is like in your instance, the way that you
are with your friends and the very serious commitments that you make to your friends and
to the dedication that you have to your friends.
And there is no romantic pretext, which doesn't have to be in marriage anyway, but it would
absolutely parallel to what you're talking about in the relationship with God.
And I would also say God is friend is very overlooked that we often talk about God in marriage
as part of God with family.
And I think that that's misleading because not every marriage leads to biological offspring.
And even in that vein, God wanted people to get off the idolatry of biology because the
(38:15):
idolatry of biology was a very, very real thing.
They thought they had to have sons and they were going to have lineage just through their
children.
And then you have all of the sex rights and the pagan aspects of it that really did idolize
body parts and reproductive power.
So there is absolutely a place and it is more than just a suggestion.
We need to know God is friend.
And I feel that we don't look at God as friend once again because we are often so overshadowing
God as parent.
And there is nothing wrong with seeing God as a parent.
There is nothing wrong with seeing God as a marriage.
There is nothing wrong with seeing God as a friend.
The problem is when we are shutting everything else down and we are only looking at God through
that one thing.
We are not using that dice that you got.
Yeah.
And at the risk of potentially derailing, and this is definitely going to be a conversation
for maybe another podcast.
(38:36):
But I feel like the reason that we overlook God as friend is that in the US at least it is
my experience that we don't value friendship period.
It is pretty much like friends are a temporary thing.
They are placeholders where you learn how to socialize but then as soon as you find your
romantic partner it is like okay I don't need friends anymore.
And that is not.
There is a really long term for it called amatonormativity that is talked about a lot
in the queer spaces especially among people who identify as aromatic.
So like me I don't experience any romantic attraction whatsoever.
It is just like that switch just never flipped in my brain.
And so I take issue with the fact that society places so much emphasis on romantic relationships
because it is like I don't see them as the end all be all.
I need a support system and friends are definitely part of that support system.
But yeah that is definitely going to be like a different topic for another day.
But like I would highly suggest let's talk about more friendship from the pulpit kind
of thing.
Absolutely.
And I mean I can say this that I think and it is actually come from you Chuck that looking
(39:03):
at God is friend is something that I even really will openly admit to not thinking a whole lot
about until this point in my life.
I thought about God as husband a few different times and I will admit to even thinking about
that now and it is something I kind of go through phases where I think about it.
And I would say the major image is God is father is God is an authority figure as God is
the parent in the sky and that is waiting to just kind of throw the lightning bolt your
way.
And we don't when we talk about God is father and then we want to say that God is loving
or God is this or God is that.
I think that we often forget that a lot of the images that we have of our parents roll
over into how we feel about the divine.
And that often means like you had pointed out once that you don't tell your parents everything
good God I don't tell my parents everything
We don't want to tell them everything but I will go when I will talk to God.
And looking at God is friend I mean it's like you talk about even from getting married
the last time.
Damn it I need my friends I don't know about nobody else I mean you know sometimes I think
I need y'all more now than I did before.
And he needs friends and we need to have people in our lives.
(39:25):
And I remember he went through something a couple years ago when I remember sitting back
and saying you know because he didn't really want to talk to me about it but he went and
he talked to his guy friends.
And it occurred to me maybe that's who he wants to talk about with it.
Maybe that's what he feels comfortable doing and maybe there's nothing wrong with that.
And it's the same type of thing that we're talking about with God.
We can take stuff to God that we can't necessarily take to our parents.
And like you say we don't really value friendship we value parents we value spouses we value
family roles but we often don't value friendship.
And about why it's so important in seeing all these different aspects of God we can find
something that we recognize and we see that holiness in that we don't find in some other
area of our life and that's why God is so multifaceted.
I keep in just really I kind of have a thought I'd go for it.
Okay, you pointed to the chat again that's really gonna throw me off.
But I had a thought well you were talking me in about how basically friends or like you
and your husband are kind of friends with all of us.
I platonically ship people and by that I mean it Charlie knows what I mean because in
(39:52):
getting to know my partner I noticed that a lot of their fandoms and interest overlap
with Chuck's.
So I kind of suddenly not so suddenly just be like oh hey you should send and Chuck this
thing.
Oh hey you might want to talk about this hey Chuck like this thing too because I feel like
they would hit it off really well and to my delight and detriment they both they had.
Underline detriment.
Yeah because it's like oh great they get along and then it's like oh great they get along.
And then we gang up on you.
Yeah.
Oh great Chuck get along and y'all talking about stuff and we want to go to the damn restaurant.
And we're leaving the room.
Right.
We're like the other night Joe was teasing me about how much I write and Charlie was like
you know they're right.
I'm like great so my partner and my group is on a partner are both ganging up on me
(40:19):
here.
I have no allies great.
I'll be your ally Nik.
I mean although I've made fun of you for that too so anyway moving on.
You'll be my ally for right now.
(40:40):
Okay I'll be your ally too.
That's is one of the signs of the of a healthy relationship if you and your partner can
be friends with everyone else then that's a stable relationship and that shows that's
because I can't be everything that my partner needs and no one person can be everything
one individual needs.
(41:08):
Fair.
That's idolatry that's unreasonable standards.
We need different types of people different types of relationships with each other but like
with that in a relationship with God we should want other people to have a relationship
with God too.
There is definitely this underlying gate keepyness of if you don't believe XYZ you're
not a Christian or you can't be a part of our denomination what have you.
Once if your relationship with God is that exclusive you just say it but it's kind of mimicking
(41:31):
an abusive relationship where let's say partner A the abuser is trying to isolate you from
your support system your family your friends basically everyone who means something to
you because they're going to know that something's up and they don't want you to catch
that.
So yeah we need we need that individual relationship with God but we also need that
communal relationship with others because that's just honestly just going to make everything
better and that's how we also get other things out of our individual relationship with God.
Does anybody else feel like they need to say ow to that?
(41:52):
Because having been someone who has been in those relationships.
I also never thought about it but we can kind of be abusive in our relationship with
God and gatekeeping and that it's like okay I have my relationship with God I can't have
anybody else involved in it and they might want people to be around or they might want
to tell people about it but it only goes so far and it's always pretty much to say oh
look how wonderful I am or you know look how wonderful God loves me or you know it still
has I guess we could say kind of a gatekeeping heir to it.
Well this was a very fast hour and I'm glad that we picked this topic.
I'm glad that we picked this topic because I think it really brought out the multifaceted
nature of God I think it really brought out a lot of things that we kind of wanted to
talk about and that we wanted to dive into in different ways and so you'll know how this
(42:14):
works.
I typically turn over final thought to the guests so what is something that you guys would
like to leave everybody with?
I will go first because Chuck is giving a head empty no thoughts look but I would
just say find what works for you.
I definitely felt like a bad Christian growing up because I didn't read my Bible every day
I didn't enjoy reading my Bible every day but then lo and behold I discovered you don't
have to.
That's not to say until like never read your Bible again let's not what I'm saying but if
that's not what works for you that's fine if going for a run, bless your heart if you
(42:35):
do run for fun it could never be me.
If running exercising being in nature helps you connect with God more go for it if listening
to worship music or even just music in general for an hour helps you go for it.
Find whatever works and then find ways to cultivate whatever works so that they can keep
working.
But at the same time don't feel like everything is lost if you don't connect in the same
way because that could just mean your relationship is maturing so much that you need something
(42:57):
else.
I think I'm just going to piggyback off of what makes that in closing.
So in the blog post I just wrote about the history of Christianity in India I basically
point out that we have like a one size fits all like we want there to be like a one size
fits all church we don't like the idea of there being different denominations you know
there's disputes about who is the like the one true church and all that which I think
misses the that misses the entire point that God values diversity if you like read the
first chapter or I think it's like the second chapter whichever creation stories like God
(43:20):
made stuff according to their kinds it's like God didn't make just one type of flower He
didn't make just one type of tree God didn't make just one type of human being and so with
the diversity of all that there's got to be a diversity of both relationship types and
then just as an individual you're going to be so different from the next person.
So like what Nik was saying I also wasn't on board with reading my Bible every single day
I was a night owl and it was always oh reach your Bible in the morning couldn't be me I was
(43:42):
always hitting snooze on the alarm clock and like trying to you know there's this the checklist
of things that good Christian should do it's like I was able to like do some things but
most of the others I wasn't and I was always holding myself against this invisible standard
but that's not the checklist is something that we can definitely use to be like hey this
is what works for me some of this doesn't we don't need to use it as a comparison trap
(44:07):
we definitely don't need to shame ourselves for not being able to complete certain tasks
on it it's just guidelines and so in that vein basically like yeah use the checklist
as a starting point but maybe one of the first things that you should do is like detach
the shame that comes from hmm you know like not not reading your Bible every day like it is
(44:30):
still important but you know God's everywhere and if we really believe in the power of the Holy
Spirit and God can reach us through anything wow I don't even know what to say to that because
I was going to add something I don't typically do this but I was going to add in here in
addition to kind of what you both said is to also be open to reflections of God in different
(44:51):
ways and different relationships with God maybe let your light chuck and marriage just
doesn't do it for you and there's nothing wrong with that and I think it's important that
we say that there is nothing wrong with that different people we are all different maybe
God is friend is going to speak to you maybe if you really want a parental guidance in your
life maybe God as a parent is going to work for you and there are more reflections of God
(45:16):
as different forms of parents than just Father in Scripture now you do have to look and you
do have to kind of be open to seeing it but there are other images in there there is God
as Mother there is God kind of is just a general parent without a specification of gender they
do exist in Scripture maybe you know God as the Spirit which we don't often talk about the
(45:40):
Spirit you know basically is kind of female if we're really going to do the grammar and the
It clearly has a place and it's, and it's, it generally applies.
words and then you get into the New Testament it's more non-binary maybe the Spirit speaks
to you more that image then some of these other more traditional figures or you know understanding
God is provider or understanding God as the God who sees you opening up to more than just
(46:05):
one version of God will really help you to understand God more diversely and more intimately
Now I thank you all for being on here and how can everybody get in contact with you all?
Words wouldn't come my goodness through my website I've got a nifty little contact thing
I'm not very active on other social media platforms so you go to beloved - not - broken.com
(46:28):
the questions tab that's my contact form you don't have to submit a question it's mostly just
there that if you do have a question you can find a place to ask it but yeah hit me up and we can
talk in there.
And for me again my website is nikfits.com that's nikfits.com there's a contact form on there where you can
(46:52):
message me there's also only to my link tree which has only to my other socials I am admittedly
not super active on Instagram right now I'm more active from like take talking to this guy so if you
want to you know chat with me on either of those platforms feel free.
(47:13):
Well I thank you both for being on here and really do appreciate you guys being a really big part
of season six as we said when we started we're going to be getting into season seven soon we're
going to start recording for that and we know that y'all will be back for that and we already have a
(47:37):
lot of very exciting things planned for that and so no as we say this this is not goodbye this is
just until we get back for season seven which will return in September so as I said when we started
go catch up on some of the things you missed maybe listen to some other episodes from past seasons
(48:00):
we've got over 200 episodes up I think that as of the recording of this we have 204 episodes released
and that is an incredible body over these six years and we're really really excited that we're
starting to move into different territories so definitely check that out and let's just start
(48:24):
here I'd like to give you some information for some resources that might really help you out with
some of what we're talking about today so I'm actually going to recommend three books of mine the
first two go together the last one is kind of something that also might help out so I'm recommending
(48:51):
my book ministering to LGBTQ+ and those who love them a primer for queer theology that's ministering
to LGBTQ+ a primer for queer theology which ministers Nik and Charlie also wrote the forward for
(49:13):
and so we really do encourage you to get that now the reason why I'm recommending that for this
podcast is because in the book I look at different expressions of God now I don't necessarily look at
(49:41):
as diverse as we might have talked today like provider and all that sort of stuff but I do look at God
from different perspectives of gender and that there are actually a lot of different expressions of
the divine everything from the traditional image of father or God is male to female to non-binary to
(50:15):
even a little bit of gender queer if we really start to study the grammar and the words involved
and along with that book there's also a workbook so it's the ministering to LGBTQ+ and those who love
(50:40):
them a primer for queer theology workbook you can get both on amazon.com look me up dr. Lee Ann B Marino
and all my titles come up now the other one I'm going to recommend because we kind of
(51:15):
got into some of the wordplay is my book the divine feminine a treatise on the female in Christian
spirituality and the reason I mentioned that book is because that started out as a very innocent word
(51:45):
study that turned into something else entirely and so if you are looking for something that really
kind of expands your mind on different aspects of God definitely check that book out as I said before
(52:14):
look me up on amazon wherever books are sold all my titles come up there's definitely something
for everybody go out there and check it out today also check out my patheos column leadership on fire
(52:47):
at patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire that's patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire and the reason I
recommend that is because that is a blog for all things leadership so there's a lot of resources on
(53:24):
there whether you're interested in leadership or in leadership want to learn more about it that is
your go-to do all kinds of different educational things on there to help people learn and grow and
(54:00):
develop in their relationship with God and leadership and as leaders so go and check that out today
(54:26):
also if you're interested in connecting with me @kingdompowernow across social media feel
free to do it feel free to add me on facebook, tiktok, twitter for however much longer we have tiktok
instagram i'm going to admit much like the others i'm not really active everywhere but you can reach
(54:51):
out we can have a conversation let's find out what you want to talk about in season seven let's
find out what you want to hear more of on this program connect with me @kingdompowernow also
if you are interested in the world of counterculture Christianity feel free to visit my website at
kingdompowernow.org that's kingdompowernow.org interested in seminary that's entirely affordable and
(55:13):
you can do it from home and it's actually applicable to what you might do in ministry feel free to
(55:37):
visit acts176.org that's acts176.org for apostolic covenant theological seminary and if you are in the
Charlotte North Carolina area and want to continue the conversation we had today want to learn more
(56:04):
about God want to learn more about different aspects of God want to learn about developing those
(56:28):
different principles in order to help you grow in your relationship with God then join us at sanctuary
at welcomeinthisplace.org that's welcomeinthisplace.org and if you have questions that are
(56:52):
not answered on the site feel free to reach out we will be happy to get back to you and this is
(57:21):
Apostle dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you and closing that we can be gay key to with our relationship with
God even in our own minds even before we ever mention anything to anybody else we can have walls and
(58:02):
blockages in that based on what we think we know but we really don't know so let's let down those
walls today so that we can learn more about God and can become deeper in our relationship with him
(58:26):
until next time be blessed
thank you for joining us on the kingdom now podcast today i pray it is proven to be a
(58:53):
blessing in your life to learn more about this work ask a question submit feedback advertise with
us be a guest or donate to support this work as our podcast is sponsored by listeners like you
visit my website which contains essential information projects and looks for other points of
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contact around the web at kingdompowernow.org also if you are in our area and would like
to visit sanctuary international fellowship tabernacle visit welcomeinthisplace.org
until next time this is Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you that the kingdom of God is
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within you and that means the kingdom is now
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