December 10, 2024 • 71 mins
Often associated with some of the most conservative theology in practice, Pentecostalism is changing...especially among the most dedicated of believers. Join Apostle Dr. Lee Ann B. Marino and guest Pastor Michael Alford of Mt. Pisgah Apostolic Fellowship Church in Nashville, Tennessee for his journey to pastor an inclusive and affirming Apostolic Pentecostal church - and the changes coming - right now. (Intro and Conclusion Track "Ready to Rock" by Yvgeniy Sorokin, https://pixabay.com/users/eugenemyers-40510887/. ACTS Seminary ad back track "Worship" by Ivan Luzin, https://pixabay.com/music/main-title-worship-151061/.)
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Episode Transcript
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Apostolic Covenant Theological Seminary, the Revolution starts here.
Welcome to Kingdom Now, the podcast featuring Faith with an Edge,
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as we celebrate the Kingdom of God within you.
I am your host, Dr. Lee Ann Marino, apostle, author,
podcaster, professor, and theologian, and founder of Spitfire Apostolic Ministries
and all the works that go along with it.
I am excited to share this program with you,
as we explore the ins and outs of counter-culture Christianity,
(01:18):
present as you live out the Kingdom of God in your everyday life.
Want to learn more? Visit my website at www.kingdompowernow.org
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Interviews on a variety of relevant topics, teaching and preaching proclaimed everywhere
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Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
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Happy whatever time update is wherever you are.
And to our listeners in Portugal and Brazil and all of the other Portuguese speaking countries,
we say "Bom Dia".
We hope that whatever time update is when you are listening,
that you are having a good one.
And I welcome you to this edition of the Kingdom Now podcast.
And I am your host, Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino here as the Spitfire serving as the voice of counter-culture Christianity,
(02:24):
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Progressive Pentecostalism doesn't sound like two words that typically go together,
depending on who you ask.
And, in fact, most of us with Pentecostal backgrounds,
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probably at one point in time or another would have raised our eyebrow to such a concept.
But believe it or not, Pentecostalism is moving and transforming with the times,
which given the history of Pentecostalism, I would fully expect.
Sometimes they say I don't know how it got so conservative.
But if we look at the history of the movement,
change is coming and it's moving in all sorts of different ways.
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today, my guest is Pastor Michael Alford, who is senior pastor at Mount.
How do I pronounce that?
Is Mount Pisgah Apostolic Church for all people?
That works.
Okay, I'm going to let you do that.
Pisgah, I thought that's how it was, but I was just like, let's make sure.
Okay?
And we welcome you to this episode.
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And we're very grateful to have you here.
And so please, Pastor, take a moment and introduce yourself.
Well, thank you, thank you, thank you, you're possible for all inviting me.
This is so much fun. I'm so excited.
I, my husband does a podcast.
He's never asked me to be on it.
So I am so thrilled.
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I am this grateful that God has allowed me to live 55 years and see what he is doing.
And like you said, we're considered progressive.
But our roots are still very, very apostolic.
And but we have to change our use or different way to
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present the gospel that never changes.
But we have to go in different directions because we are serving so many different kinds of people.
Tell you more about me.
I am from the Gulf Coast.
I was raised in Mobile, Alabama.
I'm a fifth generation Pentecostal
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I am which humbles me.
I am truly humbled and awe that God chose me.
But it's funny how God does things.
And you know, my family is from Mississippi.
So we, that's where my family got into Pentecostalism was in Mississippi.
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And a little community called Leakesville, Mississippi, my great, great grandmother,
Crocker.
She was a Presbyterian.
And she found the truth reading the Bible herself that her pastor said,
do not read the book of Acts.
It's not for us now.
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And she's, I can only imagine because I know why.
The lights are there.
Yeah.
So like me and my family, like, if he says don't go there, I'm going to go there.
You know, so she went there and read it over and over and says,
this is what I need.
I need to be baptized in Jesus name.
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I need the Holy Ghost, but not knowing what that was.
And the story is that she went to every pastor in that community to be baptized.
Because you know, in the Presbyterian church, they were sprinkled.
Well, she found the Baptist minister that were baptized her in the name of Jesus.
And she was baptized in the name of Jesus.
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So my great, great, great grandmother and my great, great grandfather,
only store in this little community.
And his brother, her brother-in-law, was coming from California.
And he got the Holy Ghost in the late 20s through Azusa Street.
And he got the revelation of Jesus name baptism.
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And his name was William Crocker.
And he drove all the way back to Mississippi and came into the store.
And they began to talk.
And he told her all that was going on and what happened.
And she stopped and said, stop.
Let me, she went grab your Bible.
And she said, this, just right here, Acts 2.38, he said, yes.
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She said, I've been baptized in Jesus name now.
I want that Holy Ghost. And she got the Holy Ghost and they had the first
Pentecostal service in South Mississippi in the late 20s, early 30s.
And they had a brush arbor built in front of the farmhouse.
And they had basically took, had the clothes down in the Presbyterian church
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because everybody got the Holy Ghost and got baptized.
Then they moved from there and came to the Baptist church.
And the Baptist people kicked them out because they were converting all the
Baptist and they went to the other church.
So they finally built their own place of worship in their early 30s.
And it was also called Mount Pisgah Pentecostal.
And so, and of course, the UPC and the other churches joined,
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well, these two organizers joined and made the United Pentecostal Church in 1945.
And so it was called, now it's all Mount Pisgah, United Pentecostal Church at
Leakesville, Mississippi. So I have a long heritage here of a lot of family that are
preachers, missionaries. You name it. You know, my mom and dad were very involved with church.
My mother was the Ladies auxiliary for 100 years, I think.
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And my dad, before he passed, he was still one of the elders of the church, Deacon.
He took care of the church. I was taught, you take care of the church before you take care of your house.
You know, and when I came when I was 14 until my dad said,
that I think of him called into the ministry. He said, great.
Let's get started. So he gives me a bucket and a mop and some cleaners. He said, go clean the bathroom.
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I said, how's that ministry? He said, maybe that is ministry.
You are a servant. You serve.
And so that's my growing up is crazy.
But I am so grateful to have the foundation that I have. And unfortunately, you know,
coming out as gay, it's really really big, damper on relationships and the church. But,
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you know, let me just tell you how good God is. I came out in 1998 in Atlanta, Georgia,
and my pastor at the time. He had a doctorate in counseling and pastor counseling. And he's a
let's talk. Let's go talk. And after a few sessions of just talking, he said, Michael, you're gay.
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And I said, pastor, I can't be. He said, son, if you don't speak it out, you're going to have
a nervous breakdown and you're not going to make it through it. And I stood there and cried. And it
was so hard. But when I said that yes, or I am gay, it was like a mountain came off my shoulders.
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He walked around, hugged my neck. I said, now what I'm going to do. I don't have a job now. He's
yes, you do. Because I was doing the music at this church. He said, don't worry about it. You're who
you are, you're who God created. This is United States. And so my life changed in 1998. And here I am.
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What is 2024 now. And I am the happiest I've ever been. I am the closest to God I've ever been.
God has opened many, many doors for me. And it's just amazing what God does and how God moved me around.
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I'm a cell over the book here. Sorry. But prior to going to Atlanta, Georgia, I went to JCA,
which is Jackson College, a Bible college of the UPC,
of college in Jackson, Mississippi. Awesome, awesome experience. I was so blessed. God opened doors
after doors. He took the shy, backward country kid and helped me blossom into a ministry that I
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remember dreamed of being in. And then he brings me to Nashville, Tennessee. When he told me I was
going to Nashville, Tennessee, I was like, God, how can I? I can't do what you call me to do.
The UPC only allows me to do music and requires and worship. I'm allowed to preach. But even because
everybody knew I was gay. And but as long as I don't, is that ask? It was that say don't ask, don't tell
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kind of thing. And but everybody knew. But God opened doors 15 years ago for me to start a church
here in Nashville, Tennessee, we started in our home. And I knew God was moving in my life. And
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it was very scary. Don't jump into anything. I'm always leery, always procrastinate. You know, I
don't rush into any decisions. And God has to literally push me. So my good friend Shannon, he was doing
music in another church. And he asked me to be his assistant because I was leaving the church,
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UPC church. And I didn't get it. And I have been praying to God. You promised, you know,
that I would start a church, a ministry, how am I going to do this? Well, I was praying for my
husband because my husband was not raised Pentecostal. He was raised Catholic and Jehovah's Witnesses.
Then he meets me. And but he was very careful. He's a very, very prayerful man. And I know
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when God speaks to him, he will not ask questions. Well, Shannon, my friend said, well,
am I going to start us a church? I'm like, okay. And I said, well, I will have to talk to Sean.
So I came home to Sean. I said, I didn't get the position. You know, and I just really don't know
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what to do. I've left the UPC and I don't have more to go. So why don't you just start a church
Michael? I'm like an, oh, dear God. You're you're moving here. And I said, well, do you understand
what that means? He said, no, not, I said, it's not all glam and fabulous and wonderful. It is
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heartbreaking, hard, a lot of sleepless nights, a lot of struggles. And I explained it to him. I said,
do you understand? He said, yeah, get it. And we started 15 years ago in our home. And we don't have
a very large home, but we had grew to nine people in our living room and we had to find somewhere to go.
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And, you know, we've had our ups and downs. And now the funny thing about it about God is
my great, great, grandmother was a Presbyterian. And the place where we are now,
Rinnning is from the Presbyterian church. Full circle.
Full circle. And the thing about these wonderful Presbyterians, first time I met them,
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they say, well, where the frozen chosen? I said, well, not for long.
And I have to fall, to fall y'all out, right? Yes. And God has, God has, and because the
church, they probably have 12 people the most. And they're all age between 80 and 100. And this is a
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very nice big, huge building. They only use the fellowship hall and the kitchen. They basically had
shut down the whole church, but that fellowship room where they have services. And the church hasn't
been used in 15 plus years. So they have let us come in and we have basically taken over the building.
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We have all the same school rooms set up. We have the church sanctuary, clean,
dusted. We it's all set up, ready to, you know, and we, when we moved in, this come in November
the 6th, we'd be there two years. We moved in their place with six people. And this past Sunday,
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we had 23, 40 people watching online and we had like, right at 10 people who are not there because
of sickness or work. This is what's God's doing. This is, I have nothing to do with it. I just passed
her. God grows the church. We love the people. And it's amazing what God is doing. So we've had our
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ups and downs at Mount Pesca and God is places and a place in Nashville. On top of all that was funny.
It's the neighborhood is called the Old Hickory Village, which was created in the late 1800s by DuPont.
They built their homes for their employees. Well, it's called the village. And I was telling a friend
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who is a real estate lady here in Nashville where we're going. She said, oh honey, do you know
understand what's happening here? I might know. She said, do you realize the village is the second
largest gay neighborhood in Nashville? Really? You're joking. She said, no. Honey, when June comes around,
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you see pride legs everywhere, not just by gay people, but allies. This whole community is so
amazing. I was blown out of the water and God is bringing people from the neighborhood. We have
Episcopal people from the Episcopal Church, the Baptist Church, the Methodist Church, the Presbyterian
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Church, the Presbyterian people are coming to our church. The pastor is just so welcoming and so
excited about the worship, about the praise and worship music. You know, everything, he was saying
something the other day and I said, sir, I said, we can't call yourself frozen chosen because y'all
sure I've melted a whole lot. Y'all see it was laughing on me because I'll go to the service of
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once while in the mornings for them. And he said, you know, if you feel like saying, amen, hallelujah,
praise God, etc. He said, you know, it's scripture. You can do that. And it was like a
lease happening in that place and people start laughing and saying, you know, just I see y'all are not
frozen no more. And they're bringing in praise and worship music. All these 80-year-old people
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singing praise and worship. It is just wonderful. And we do come combine services and God moves and
they enjoy the worship people. I mean, one of the Presbyterian men and his wife that come, he has
got the Holy Ghost and baptized in Jesus name. And his wife is 85 and we have Bible studies
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on being filled with the Holy Ghost quite a bit. And so these people are very, very hungry for God.
And the thing about it, I call myself progressive cause I'm getting outside of the walls and I'm not
going around judging people. I am saying, hey, you have a relationship with God, but I've got some
just a little bit more that, you know, entice that relationship with God because you can't tell them
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that they're not saved because they have a, they've had an experience. They have a relationship and
you just give them more and they're so hungry. So my fact, I have a methodist couple that started
coming to our church, him and his wife and they're so hungry. I was able to baptize them in Jesus
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name just a couple of weeks ago and they have transformed and it's funny because he's, he worships
so loud and you couldn't do that in the Methodist church. He said, but I feel free here.
You know, and that's just amazing what God is doing. And then I have another couple, one's
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Episcopal, one's Baptist. And I called him this past Sunday with their hands raised,
worshiping. I'm like, oh my God, that's a breakthrough because they've been coming for years and they
said, please don't be offended if we don't worship. I said, no, I'm not offended. Just keep coming.
You know, worship by the way you know how? And it'll, like I said in the last few weeks, they've
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been raising their hands and like, see, it's just amazing what God is doing.
I would say I've actually noticed and I think that this is an interesting thing kind of going
along with what you're talking about. I've noticed in videos and in clips and in different things I'm
seeing even out of the UPCI for those who are listening, UPCI's United Pentecostal, which you had
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mentioned earlier. Yes. And a lot of apostolic groups, you know, I remember 20 years ago when,
you know, we would have never seen a girl drummer or it was still very controversial about women
preaching. It happened, but it wasn't real common. I am noting a lot of conversations taking place.
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So like, for example, they say that we have to be conscientious of the kind of place we're creating
because this generation wants answers. They don't want us to just blow off their questions.
Right. A lot of conscientious actions about, hey, you know, we have to be mindful of how we're
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treating people in church. Yes. And I'm not going to lie, I'm not seeing that in other communities,
like I'm seeing it among the apostolic community. And I'm wondering why that is. What it is that
God is doing within apostolic communities that is not happening in other places. Because then a lot
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of other churches, they're just kind of pretending like none of this stuff happens. And so I guess I
really am seeing a door for progressive Pentecostalism to move in a much bigger scope than even we're
talking maybe your church, my church, a few other churches that there's really something that's kind
of stirring. And I wonder if you have any insights on what's going on? I think I'm not going to,
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because my husband tells me I'm so UPC that it's not even funny. I, I, you know, that's all I've known.
And I'm not going to throw the baby out with the water, you know, the mouthwater. But I believe,
one day, I was with my friend, I was talking to my dear friends, she's UPC and Louisiana, she helps
teach a teacher class for my church on Bible mapping. And anyway, get like a long story short,
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we were talking about this. And I believe that when the UPC voted in Bishop David Bernard,
who was a growing, growing educated man, that he encouraged the people of the UPC to go to school,
to educate themselves. And I believe when you get an education, you get outside of that bubble of
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the church, and you see that, oh, there is a world outside of the church bubble. And you gain
education and you experience different things and different people. And you realize, oh, they're
not demons. They're not, you know, I just say it that way. But I think, right, you know, Bishop Bernard
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has encouraged the church to grow up. Yeah. And and look outside the walls. Now, it's, it's been,
I mean, UPC has gone through kicking and screaming through this process. Trust me. I have family,
I mean, that's my family, all UPC. And I think it's funny that, you know, that the younger
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preachers that are coming up, they won't say this out loud. But I know, if quite a few, the ones I know,
they have more gay people in their churches. Yeah. And they're not condemning people. You know,
they let them do music, sing small stuff like that, you know, but they can't be totally involved
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because of, you know, the way we were been taught our whole lives. But it's a little bit here, a
little bit there. And you see it gradually coming in. Do you, I believe that the UPC will embrace
the LGBT Christian community? No. But there will be preachers who will. Maybe it won't be everybody,
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but there is a move toward it. Yes. Yes. And, and they're seeing because the, what's happened,
they have learned how to learn. They have learned how to do research. And that's what's changing a lot
of the churches is my say, because they say, wait a minute, you know, we've been told to do this,
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do this, do this, and don't ask questions. We have gone to school to learn how to ask questions.
Right. And so they're asking questions now. Why is this? What's the, what's the context of this
scripture? What is the meaning of this scripture when it was written, the context, the, you know,
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the whole thing? And that's what I think is changing a lot of people. You know, and they're having,
you know, not like I said, the pastor who helped me come out in 1998, you know, I would dare never
say his name because he still pastors. Because I wouldn't want him to get in trouble. Because,
he's, he's stepped out of the norm of the UPC to help me. Right. And he didn't damage me.
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He didn't beat me up. And I, and I also believe that was God's way of God doing that because
I'm not so damaged that I cannot pastor. I'm not so beat up that I can't help heal other people.
Now, I've had my issues, but some other people, but I was not destroyed by the church. So God made it
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where I can help heal those who are coming to my church because I'm not, have, I don't have that
PTSD that I have to battle as a lot of people do. And I believe God and His great mercy and grace
allowed me to be in this, the right place, the right time. And, you know, not be damaged.
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So I can help those now who are coming to my church. And because it is a process, you know, for a lot
of people and you have to be patient, which, which I am not a patient person. And I'm like, God,
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why did you pick me? Because I'm not very patient. But I, you know, his, with his grace, I'm doing
what he's called me to do. I mean, he, he knows. And so I guess maybe we can also say there's the
supernatural element in there. So he knows you're not patient. So he gives it to you. You know, in our
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power, in our weakness, we find power. Yes. So definitely. I mean, I, I think what you said about
the education is interesting because I don't know how much our listeners know I have not talked about
it a ton, but my education was apostolic. I was apostolic Bible college. And one of the things I
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always say that I am most proud of is that I learned to rightly divide there. Yes. That, that
was an emphasis was that we learned to rightly divide that it was not just, all right, here's the
Bible. And it was understood if you could rightly divide, you could wrongly divide. And so there was
a really big focus on that education. And I have often said that I believe it actually is why I'm
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where I am today because I learned a spot bad theology and I learned to spot inconsistent theology.
And I think that that's also going on that we're learning to distinguish the traditions of men
from what's actually what God asks us to do. And that's a real dividing point for groups like the
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UPCI. It's dividing for apostolics like you say it's not 100% anywhere and you know, it's a process.
And once again, like you said, we got to be patient with our parishioners. We also have to be patient
with the bigger process that's going on. And I think very much that foundation is what kind of led me
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to more of a progressive view of a lot of matters. Right. Well, I've learned because I, I, you know,
I've learned that growing up we were, when we were asked questions like you said earlier, we were to
just do what I say. Don't ask questions. You know, so I had to get and come to a place in my life
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where I had a question God. Why I had a question I believe. You know, who I really believe in
Ben baptizing Jesus and I really believe in Ben the whole of the goes. Do I really believe live in a
holy life, you know, inward and outward? You know, how to get to that place. And also I did all this
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because I went to also to the University of Mobile, which is a Southern Baptist.
Christian school. So I, so I went through a lot of questioning in myself in my faith and I broke it
down and just built it back up. So now, you know, I know what I believe. I know where I stand. And I have
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to teach because I do have, I have a lot of people kind of my church or a pentacol, so I have the
pentacol, so holiness. I have the church of God, the P.A.W. U.P.C. I had the A.L.J.C. You know, I had
this in the God. You know, all these pentacol people different, you know, beliefs. And of course, I had the
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U.P.C. ladies who come who are lesbians and they, you know, cut their hair short, wear pants during all
that before they came back to church and pray back through to God. And all of a sudden they started
stop cutting the hair, took off their makeup and started wearing skirts and like, wait, wait, wait, wait,
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let's talk about this. Now, I believe in holiness. I do, I still believe for myself. I, you know, I cannot
you know, go out in public in shorts, you know, so where my long sleeves, cut my hair short, I don't,
you know, that's just me because I am convicted of that. And so I sat down and said,
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why are you doing this? I said, well, we really feel convicted over this. I said, okay,
are you convicted? Are you doing it to please me? It's a no. We feel convicted. That's okay.
Because what I believe is if God convicts you of something and you don't do it, it's a sin.
But if you do it and not being convicted by God and you're doing it to please the pastor or man,
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it is a sin also. So, you know, I had to make that, I'll put that out there because I don't want them to
do it for the pastor like we always did growing up. I wanted them to do it because they were truly
convicted in their heart and they're doing it unto God, not man. And I've teach this in my church.
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And I hate to say, we are a conservative church, but yet still we're progressive. You know, I teach
modesty. You know, we teach, you know, moderation. You know, people have come to back to church
that they smoked and drink and all that. And I'd have preached against it. I just preached Jesus
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and told them get a relationship with God. Let me help you build a relationship. And within months,
they stop smoking, they start drinking and I didn't tell them to do this. And I said, why are you doing
this? He said, they were like, we feel convicted over this. So it's educating people on the word of God,
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educating people how to build a relationship with God and allowing the Holy Ghost to change you to
correct you, to clean you up. Not the pastor is not the pastor's job is not the saint's job.
The job of the pastor is to lead you to God. Lead you like that. I'll say lead you to the water. Either
you drink or you don't drink. I'm to love you. Pray for you. Teach you. But now I'm not here there to
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condemn you. So how would you define because we keep throwing the term progressive around?
And we did mention that as a major theme. How would you define progressive pentecostalism?
Progressive in the sense that we just don't do churchy things. We get out into the community.
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We work with policies of our government. You know, we get involved.
Do some of the totally different from the UPC. You know, we feed the hungry. We support churches,
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we're small, but we combine with other churches to feed the hungry. To have the homeless.
We have a severe problem here in Nashville. We have youth homeless youth so bad.
And the last time I've talked to them about this, I was say 80% of the homeless boys,
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not counting the other groups, or LGBT kids who were kicked out by Christian homes.
And the last count was 700 boys. That's not counting the girls. That's not counting the transgender
are the by. And they're living on the streets. They're having to do things they shouldn't have to do to survive.
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We have great places here for our young people for the daytime to take care of them. But
at night they only have so many beds. And then they have to go back on the streets the next day.
But we have different churches. The Methodist Church here in Nashville are amazing. And I really have built a
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lot of relationships with the Methodist ministers here. And of course, Pentecostalism comes out of the
a Westland holiness movement. If you really do study John Wesley, he preached on receiving the Holy
Ghosts. He preached on let and the gifts of the spirit be used in the church. So we are a branch of
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that. And I laugh about Methodist brothers and sisters and siblings about this. I said,
see John Wesley taught this and we're still teaching it. Why aren't you guys doing it? You know,
but they believe in receiving the Holy Ghost, but they don't they don't believe in pressuring
anybody into it, which I get it. I understand it. But they have taught me more about
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being progressive in the sense of doing what God told us to do, taking care of the homeless, the
widows, the orphans, you know, all these things that is part of the gospel that we've never taught
in the UPC. To me, that's progressive. And when I left, that went back to the secular school
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and were taking political science, they brought up this book, Dr. Martin Luther King. And I've heard
about the man, you know, we had the holiday background as kids, but we I never really understood the
impact this man had on our country. And as big I began to read all about him, I was born in
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Mississippi, I grew up in the deep south segregation is still there. It's like driving back when you
drive back to mobiles, like going into another world, you know, especially Mississippi. And so I started
reading and seeing this is part, this is part of what we need to be part doing. And that's, you know,
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and having a multicultural church, I'm having to really stay on my toes and learn and read and
educate myself on policies that are put out, not just for LGBT community, but also the Black community,
Hispanic community, you know, we have to fight for our freedom still. And that's part of being
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progressive. That's totally non-UPC. No, the only time they got political was four years ago, or
whenever it was when the last president was put in, no names mentioned, I'm trying to be political.
That's when, because everything I've been taught my whole life was thrown at the back door,
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voting for the certain person. And I'm never seen the UPC get so behind a political person until the
end, you know, and so I thought you mentioned that. I thought it was just me because I remember I don't,
we actually back in the day, they didn't touch politics. No, it was like every now and then
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something might have been a little bit implied. Right. But we didn't talk about politics. And very much
like you're saying, there really was no social interaction. There was no social outreach. No,
it was very much about getting everybody baptized in Jesus name, getting everybody speaking in tongues. And
kind of that was going to resolve everything else. And while I will say the church is that I went
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to were more diverse than you experienced. Right. And different part of the country is pretty much
what that is. I mean, you know, they were a little bit more diverse than what you experienced.
It really wasn't there, it's almost like there was no world outside of the church. It was like,
we were in the church and we were a part of this and back in those days. And I'm still sure that
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it's like this in a lot of the churches back in the day. We did not socialize with anybody else. We
did that fellowship with anybody else because they were wrong. They were heretical. They really didn't
have the true faith. And so we were almost kind of like unto ourselves. And there was no social
practicality. There was no dealing with what was going on in greater society. There was no real
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interest in anything outside of what went on often very much in our immediate little church,
which typically they really weren't very big. Right. Well, what really got me
what convicted me is for this way. I was teaching last year in Bible study. And
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I was talking about these things. And God revealed to me, I guess it was just for me. I don't
know who it is. You know, I'm just saying God showed me something. He said, Michael, how can you
win a soul or bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to a soul who is starving physically?
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It's better. And I'm like, what do you mean God? He's like, you first need to feed them physically so
they can receive the gospel of spiritually feeding. Meaning he took me back. He said, you know,
when Jesus teaching on amount of the be attitudes and he had to stop because people get hungry.
And they broke the, you know, and they found a little boy with the lunch and he gave it out to the
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people. They ate because he had the reason they did this and God's showing me this. They could not
listen anymore. They could not learn anymore. They couldn't grasp what Jesus was teaching because
they were physically hungry. So their brain just turned off. But once he, if you go back to the
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Bible and once they fed these people again, he went back to teaching. If you ever noticed that and
it got, I'm like, I get it. We can't just shove down the gospel down their throes and expect them to
get it because they're physically hungry and their minds cannot process what we're trying to give them
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because they're hungry. So if I need to give them a sandwich of bag of chips and a soda to help
bring them where they need to be so I can tell them about Jesus, that's what needs to be done.
And that's, to me, is very progressive thinking compared to what we came out of.
Very much. Well, and I would say I like your use of the term progressive. I'm going to openly very
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much admit that it's a term that I have tended to try and avoid simply because progressive is
often associated with theology and it's often associated with very, very liberal theology.
And by liberal theology, I mean a universalist outlook, a lot of them do not even see the divinity in
Christ. They might reject things like communion and baptism and they often reject swaths of the
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Bible. You know, the Bible's kind of talked about as allegorical or metaphorical rather than having
any actual relevance. And the thing that I like about what you're talking about progressive is it's an
action that it's getting out and it's doing. And it is actually in the instance you're talking about
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motivated by the Bible. Everything that you're talking about doing there is biblical. You know,
it is biblical to feed people who are hungry. It is biblical to work with other people to find
solutions for kids that are homeless or for the issues of the day. And that some things, I don't
want to say that they're not spiritual answers. They're practical answers, but they're practically
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spiritual answers. It's a spiritual action to feed somebody who's hungry because like you say,
that's the opening point for a lot of other things in their lives. And given what you're talking about
because a lot of people don't feel that you can have a safe space and a conservative theology.
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Now I would actually say my church, we're like, we're a moderate theology. We are not totally one way,
we're not really totally the other way. We're very much though, hey, let's learn about context of
the Bible. Let's really get to the center of what this is teaching us. And so what would you say in
reaction to that? Having a theology that still does make people make a choice. How do you reconcile that
(43:11):
with safe space? Oh wow. That's such a big question. And a sense, I guess when I say "cursor" to,
I mean, we got to go back to understand that we are the body of Christ, we the temple of the Holy
(43:35):
Ghost. We were created in the image of God. We believe in holiness. You have to be holy in the heart.
Because holiness is such much, so much more than our outward clothing. It's how we
attitude toward other people, that's holiness. Is our attitude toward ourselves? Is the attitude toward
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the word of God and who God is? And this is something else God revealed to me is that, you know,
the word of God says in the beginning, we were created in the image of God. So if you're tearing down
your brother or sister, you're not just tearing down your brother, you're tearing down the image of
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God. You're tearing down worship. You're, you're, you're, you're saying God's creation is not good enough,
even though we're created in his image. Right. So when I could say, "cursor" to serve, I'm still teaching
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the basic foundation of doctrine of salvation, the basic foundation of holiness, you know,
of our attitude toward everybody around us, teaching, oh another hard thing is for a lot of people
is teaching love your enemies and pray for them. That's holy. Very much so. Yeah. And, you know,
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this is what I can sort of conservative still because a lot of people don't do this. You know,
we've got to recognize that we are the billboard of Christ. And if they see you doing something,
you shouldn't be doing because you consider yourself a Christian, your calls and, you know,
Paul says, "I become all things to all men and certain things I cannot do because I make my brother
(45:34):
stumble." You know, but then you have to bring in the progressive thought of what I've been talking about.
And then you got to teach your congregation how to love. Then you got to teach your congregation how
to have mercy and grace. Then you got to teach your congregation how to grow the fruit of this spirit
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and use the gift of the spirits. So to create a safe space within all this, what I've just talked about,
starts with prayer and fasting. And that's humbling in ourselves before God and recognizing who we are
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before God because how can you love those who are coming in if you don't love yourself? The reason
I say this is people don't like that. But if I don't love the image of God in me, how can I love the
image in God and someone else coming? And you got to recognize where God has brought us from. God has
(46:46):
put us in situations to learn things that we can turn around and use to help someone else who's coming.
So that's how we create a safe space. You know, I don't come in screaming, hell of fire and brimstone.
I preach, I believe in hell, I believe in heaven and I preach hell, but I preach heaven and Jesus more
(47:09):
because I want you to follow the love of Jesus. And if I can get you to follow the love of Jesus,
I won't have to preach on hell as much.
You know, yes. So when I do say something about hell and sin and hell, it is so much easier to do.
You know how people cringing in their pews because they're in love with Jesus and they say,
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oh, you know, they're not worried about it. They know where they're going.
You know, so it's just trying to balance and you know, getting your, find your lane, balance it,
you know, and I look like Dr. King, Dr. King. He, I know the black church has taught me a lot
(47:54):
in studying. They had to teach their members at the church. They had to educate their members
at the church because there was nowhere else they could go and have a large congregation of people,
you know, back in the Jim Crow laws and all, you know, all the craziness that they had to go through.
(48:14):
So yes, they had to teach politics at the church. Yes, they had to educate their people, you know,
teach them how to read and write and all these other things. But that's what the church needs to do now.
Now do I believe in preaching politics from the pulpit? No. The only thing that comes across the pulpit
should become the cross on pulpit is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now, in other times of the week,
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you know, Bible study or whatever, yes, we need to educate ourselves on what's going on in a world
to protect us, these laws that are coming out, you know, we need to educate ourselves. We got to
figure out what we need to do to help keep that law from going into effect. And it's not just for
the LGBT community is for our other brothers and sisters and siblings, our black communities,
(49:04):
where they're trying to keep people from voting, the Hispanic community, you know, just on and on and on.
We have to help each other. And I guess go back, I'm trying to hope I'm and I hope I answered what you
asked me to do. No, you did. You did. Okay. Good. I'll tell you how you did it. Okay. Because I think the way
(49:25):
you did it is important. You're basically saying that it's a reconciliation that if you do it right,
it's just made. Right. I think that it's incorrect to say that liberal communities are always
welcoming and conservative communities are not. I fundamentally feel that I have been in both.
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And I have been unwelcome in both. Right. I have been welcome in both. And I think that sometimes
we associate exclusion with conservatism because it's easier. Yeah. It eliminates us from having
(50:13):
the really accepting deal with doctrinal truth. I'm in a group on Facebook. I moderated actually
you're in the same group. And I don't even know if you would remember any of it, but there have been
a couple of times where people come in and it seems like every time they start talking about hell,
there's an argument. And people say, well, that's a traumatic doctrine that you're hurting people with
the LGBTQ community saying you believe in hell. That's not true. Maybe what you were taught about it
(50:39):
was hurtful, but to say that nobody can ever again, as long as you live, talk about hell is wrong.
And I feel that that's wrong in any of these contexts. And so I think that we should not ever
believe that the exclusion of doctrine is automatically accepting or safe.
Right. Any more than we assume that the absence of doctrine is safety. And so you did answer it
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that in other words, safety is about more than just what we believe. And it's also about more than
just what we do. It's about both. Right. And that's very much what I got from what you were talking about.
Thank you. I try. I do listen. Now one thing I know that you had wanted me to bring up in this because
(51:29):
where getting later in the episode is about the importance of fellowship with parishioners. Now
because you are talking about fellowship with different churches, you are talking about fellowship
with different people in the community and about different involvements. I know growing up in every
church I went to because I did not just go to Appstalk churches in my history. That was one thing that
(51:53):
nobody really did, particularly the leaders. It was kind of like the leaders were over here and maybe
the leaders hung out with other leaders. But you really didn't see the leaders fellowshiping with
their congregations. And so I would love to hear you talk about that. Oh wow. You know, that's the
same way with me. Very rare to see our pastors fellowship with us. And so I prayed about it and I
(52:21):
think I tell Sean I said, I know how it raised you PC. So I do the total opposite of what they did.
In a sense, I mean, I'm not to disrespect, but everything that I felt that did not work for me
as grown up that I needed. I'm going to do in my ministry. So the reason we chose to do
(52:45):
fellowshiping after our services on Sunday is that how does a shepherd get to know his sheep?
He sits down. He talks and listens. How does the sheep get to know their shepherd? They sit down and
listen to the pastor. And you know, my thing is my congregation, I, I would say 80% of more, 80 to 85%
(53:10):
of the people who come to my church drive over an hour to come to church. Very few people live here
in Nashville. So also that is, you know, give that because I don't get to go spend time with them because
they're hour so away. Now we tried to meet up with everybody ever so often outside of church,
(53:31):
you know, a fellowship. But the reason we do it is because it gives us time to fellowship, to eat,
to laugh, to get to learn each other plus it's a safe place for us. You know, it's not, you know,
we all go to a restaurant and you can't sit there long. First thing, then you get some of us
(53:55):
who are more flamboyant than others. And then you have all these people in the restaurant staring at us
and talking and malking. So it's, it's like a safe space to eat in be ourselves and enjoy the company
of one another plus. It gives the visitors who come to our church and insight to who we are.
(54:19):
And it gives me time to sit with that visitor and talk and get to know them and then get to know me
because we break in bread. And that's what they did in the book of Acts. They broke bread with one
another. They taught. They got to learn. And it's proved to be amazing. My effect is past weekend,
(54:42):
one of the young ladies that come to our church, her mother drove from Memphis. And
she said, Pastor, my daughter is called and begged, please come. Comes to our church. Come see who I
worship with. Come eat my pastor. Come eat the saints. And she said they heard her wife just talk
(55:04):
about us all the time constantly. And she came and she said, I see now why they love this church so
much. She said, I'm blown away by your hospitality, by your love for the people. Everybody in this
(55:24):
congregation came to me and spoke to me, told me their name, got my name. We had dinner together.
And she said, you guys, you or our family. And she said, I don't feel scared no more about my daughter
being here away from me. She said, you guys will take care of them. And she said, I don't see that.
(55:49):
And so that's what we, that's what happens when we have these things going on, you know,
the fellowshiping, the eating, it builds a connection, a strong connection within the church. And
it's not to condemn one another is to help one another. You know, if sister so and so needs prayer,
(56:10):
the whole church knows in their praying, you know, that's what happens. And, you know, we're,
we all people, we have our issues, we have our problems, we have our hiccups, you know, but the
bottom line is we're still family. Family fights, family argues, you know, I'm not saying that's
what happens here. I'm just saying we all are different, but yet still we're family.
(56:37):
Well, and even if that did happen there as you're pointing out, it's not that I normal, it's not that
abnormal. Right. You know, people like you say, don't always agree about everything. And we're,
you're talking about family, right? And family, you're creating family. And that's very, very
essential. I need you to church these days. And I think it's something that's often missing.
(56:58):
If you look at whether the churches are very, very big or very, very small, the one thing they have
in common is it's almost like it's a country club. Yes. You don't really have family. And I really
am inspired that you are making the effort, whether it's creating food, whether it's going out to a
restaurant, whether it's meeting and fellow shipping or having a day or doing something else. Right.
(57:22):
That you are really trying to bridge that gap that exists in order to create community.
Well, in a way, we have to because so many of our members have been kicked out of their homes,
their families don't ever talk to them. You know, they don't have family. And it's the same way of
shot on I with it in the same boat. You know, it's just I don't have family to go home to.
(57:46):
You know, I talked to my mom. My dad passed away three years ago with COVID. We talked every day.
He was more open to me and the church than my mom is. And you know, it's just to keep the peace,
you know, we have to do things that we don't like to do. But I, this is my chosen family. I choose
(58:11):
these people to be my family. And you know, it's just amazing how God worked these things out. And I
want to also say, fellowshiping outside the church. There's a minister alliance here, you know,
amongst the Presbyterian, the Methodist. And I think the Lutheran, well, here comes be bopinian,
(58:32):
this pinnacle, stolegay guy. And pastor Ray, the pastor of the church where we rent, because these people
want them to reach out, learn how to he say you doing everything wrong. Let me bring you somebody to
teach you how to do outreach. And he said, Michael, you need, I need you to come. You need to talk to
these people and help them understand. And, you know, and I go in and I talk to these people. And when
(58:57):
the Presbyterian minister said, you're, you have no problem with your people going to his services.
He's like, no, because I trust him. And he feeds my people. He loves my people. He takes care of my
people. And, in fact, he probably preaching all of our funerals. You know,
at the past, the past or the Presbyterian church in Donaldson was like, wow, he said, I'm still trying
(59:25):
to figure out the Presbyterian and the Pentecostals working together in the first place. And I said,
we're just Presbykostals. I said, because he's like, you're taking on more what, you know,
they believe, you know, worship and everything. And as soon as you can understand, he has taught me,
(59:49):
past or raised taught me some of the most amazing things about the word of God that I will never
had learned prior. Because I had been praying God. I want to go back to school to educate myself. And
he opened this door to this man on Wednesday mornings. I'll go to
Bible study with a whole bunch of people who are from Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Methodist,
(01:00:12):
you name it. And I have learned, it's like going back to school. I have learned so much about the
gospel of Jesus Christ and Jesus that is my emblem. But on the other hand, he tells me, you have taught
me so much more about God that I'm having to go back and rethink everything I have ever learned.
(01:00:34):
About the Holy Ghost, about worship, about, you know, your worship is so raw. He said, I, he said,
I'm pure. So, but I'm learning all these wonderful new ways of worship and, you know, things that
the Methodists do, the Presbyterian do, it kind of a high church thing, I guess you want to say.
(01:01:00):
And it's amazing. Oh, the symbolism of everything, you know, and I'm in awe of that. And that's God
working in our midst. And yes, I get to privilege to work with the Methodist people with, because
they, they're opening their churches up here and creating homeless shelters where they bring
(01:01:26):
the homeless in up the street. They give them a place to sleep, they educate them, they bring doctors in,
they give them mental health, their medication, they help them get back into society, they help them
get jobs and places to live. This is what the Methodist churches are doing, because they have all this
space and their abilities, because, you know, they're, they're current, the young people are leaving
(01:01:49):
going to these mega churches, you know, and not coming back. And so, they're turning the space into
all these things to help the homeless and the homeless youth, you know, that they bring them in,
you know, get them back to where they need to be mentally and physically and spiritually, helps
(01:02:10):
get jobs, help them educate themselves and get their own place to live. You know, it's just amazing.
I'm learning, and so our church is not big enough, but we can go and help.
You know, financial we can give so much, you know, we do what we can. And, you know, I didn't
grow it like you said, we didn't grow it that way. We did not talk to the, we didn't talk to the
(01:02:33):
Baptist. You know, we only talked to the UPC and then we definitely didn't talk to the independent
pentecostals, because, you know, and, you know, it's just like you said, it was just crazy. But I'm like,
no, I'm not going to do this because the thing is, when I sit in that Bible study on Wednesday mornings,
I get 10 different versions of Jesus that's 10 more things to know about God. You know,
(01:03:03):
and it is just amazing and I'm learned how to, I'm able to talk more about my, my beliefs,
I'm being filled with the Holy Ghost more now than I was before because we're not cramming it down
their throats. We're not being a whole other than that on a suffrage righteous. We're not
(01:03:25):
sitting here worshiping our holiness instead of worshiping God. So I meant to that, you know,
it's just, and they're more receptive, even from a gay preacher, they're more receptive now because they
know I am and what I am and what I stand for that they will sit and listen to me teach them
(01:03:48):
on Jesus name baptism, the Oneness of God and then feel the Holy Ghost because, you know, because
on Trinity Sunday, you know, we, they was trying to teach on the Trinitarian viewpoint and he said,
you know, really can't do it. It's just a mystery. I said, no, it's not. Let me tell you.
And so I went and talked about the Oneness of God and Trinitarianism. I said, really, we believe the
(01:04:14):
same thing. We just use different terminology because we believe in the Father and Son of the
Holy Ghost. It's a different approach. I said, 'cause we all believe in one God, we just have different
approach. You get the different terminology to get to God. So yes, I can explain what you're trying
to explain through the Oneness of God and I brought out the scriptures and they sat there and like,
(01:04:35):
wow, we've never heard of that way. So I am preaching the gospel. So in the Methodist and the
Prespirean, you know, so it's wonderful. Well, we are about out of time. Yes. And what I typically do is I
(01:04:58):
turn it over to my guest for a few moments and in summary, what is something you would like to leave
our listeners with as a closing thought? Well, I would like to say above all things.
We're all human beings and we all make mistakes. We all screw up. But I can promise you this.
(01:05:23):
God is not man that he will lie. God is not man that he will disown you. Yes, he gives us a free will.
But he loves us so much that he sent his son to down the cross. And there's hope. There's
(01:05:45):
always hope. Never give up. All you have to do is say the name of Jesus and he is there.
At the mention of his name, he is there. And I am so honored to be called. I'm so in awe of God's grace
and mercy. And I'm very grateful to be the pastor of this church where I'm at Mount Pisgah Apostolic
(01:06:11):
Church. It humbles me. I'm very blessed. But also God loves you. God loves you. And if you want to
reach out to us here in Nashville and you're coming through the visit or you're here in Nashville,
you can always reach us at mpftn.com. You can go there and get all the information about the church,
(01:06:35):
how to connect. We have prayer service on Tuesday night at 6. We have bible study on Thursday nights 6 30. And
we have services at 3 o'clock on Sundays. So thank you, thank you, thank you, apostle,
Lee Ann for allowing me to come on this show. I am so excited and so grateful and so thankful.
(01:07:01):
Hopefully we can touch someone's help heal their hearts today.
Absolutely. And amen to that. And if people would like to get in contact with you, how can they do that?
Same. Just go to mpftn.com. My emails there, my phone numbers there,
in each connection you go through there. Also our church is Mount Pisgah Fellowship on Facebook. We
(01:07:26):
can watch our services. And it's mt period, P-i-s-g-a-h fellowship. And you can find us that way
and watch us and connect to us that way also. Well, that's absolutely wonderful. And we would definitely
love to have you back on. Thank you for coming and for sharing with us. And it's really been a blessing
(01:07:50):
and I believe that it will be a blessing to everybody who listens. I hope so. That's the whole goal of
everything is just to reach one soul and help heal them. Amen. And amen to that. And I thank all of you
for listening today. And if you would like a resource to kind of help you with some questions,
maybe that you have, because we addressed a lot of things on here when we talked about education
(01:08:12):
and we talked about issues relating to that today. I recommend my book, "Just Between Us Christians,
Real Answers to Real Questions" submitted by real Christians. Try saying that five times fast.
That's just between us. Christians, real answers to real questions submitted by real Christians.
It is available in paperback and ebook format. I will also have art cover books that later this year.
(01:08:35):
And so look me up, Dr. Lee Ann B. Marino on amazon.com or wherever books are sold and all of my titles
will come up. There is plenty on there for everybody who is interested. Also follow me on social media.
@kingdompowernow. Add me across the lines Facebook Twitter, TikTok, Instagram and beyond that's
@kingdompowernow. Let's have a conversation. Let's have a discussion. Learn what you like. Learn what you
(01:08:58):
don't like. Maybe you want to ask something or clarification on something. Feel free to reach out once
again. That's @kingdompowernow. Also follow my patheos column leadership on fire. It is about leadership.
So it's for leaders. It's for people interested in leadership. It's for people that want to learn
more about leadership anywhere you're at with that that's at patheos.com/blogsleadershiponfire
(01:09:21):
One of the nice things about pathos is if you don't want to follow every single
author on there, you can just follow me and you'll get updates about that every week in your email
that comes out Wednesday at noon every week. And so that is patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire
Also if you'd like to learn more about the world of counter culture Christianity,
(01:09:43):
feel free to visit my website at kingdompowernow.org. That's kingdompowernow.org. And if you are looking for
a seminary that will expand your horizons education and faith meeting in a practical form by which you
will use everything that you learn. Check out apostolic covenant theological seminary that's acts for
short at acts176.org. That's acts17 6.org. It can be done from a distance and is entirely affordable because
(01:10:11):
we are donation based. So once again, check that out today. Also if you're in the Charlotte, North Carolina
area and you are looking for your community, your found family, feel free to check out the work of
sanctuary, international fellowship tabernacle at welcomeinthisplace.org. That's welcomeinthisplace.org
And if you have any questions that are not answered on the site, feel free to reach out
(01:10:33):
and we will get back to you. And this is Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you in closing.
That progression is about action. And if you claim to be progressive, make sure that you are living
your faith in all things. Until next time, be blessed.
Thank you for joining us on the Kingdom Now podcast today. I pray it is proven to be a blessing
(01:11:00):
in your life. To learn more about this work, ask a question, submit feedback, advertise with us,
be a guest or donate to support this work. As our podcast is sponsored by listeners like you,
visit my website which contains essential information, projects and looks for other points
(01:11:22):
of contact around the web at kingdompowernow.org. Also if you are in our area and would like to
visit sanctuary international Fellowship Tabernacle, visit welcomeinthisplace.org. Until next
time. This is Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you that the Kingdom of God is within you.
(01:11:46):
And that means the Kingdom is now.
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Apostolic Covenant Theological Seminary, the Revolution starts here.
Welcome to Kingdom Now, the podcast featuring Faith with an Edge,
(00:55):
as we celebrate the Kingdom of God within you.
I am your host, Dr. Lee Ann Marino, apostle, author,
podcaster, professor, and theologian, and founder of Spitfire Apostolic Ministries
and all the works that go along with it.
I am excited to share this program with you,
as we explore the ins and outs of counter-culture Christianity,
(01:18):
present as you live out the Kingdom of God in your everyday life.
Want to learn more? Visit my website at www.kingdompowernow.org
And now, our program, which features a variety of formats here, just for you.
Interviews on a variety of relevant topics, teaching and preaching proclaimed everywhere
(01:39):
from my North Carolina studio to sanctuary and beyond.
And powerful insights here for now as we turn the world upside down everywhere we go.
[Applause]
Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
(02:00):
Happy whatever time update is wherever you are.
And to our listeners in Portugal and Brazil and all of the other Portuguese speaking countries,
we say "Bom Dia".
We hope that whatever time update is when you are listening,
that you are having a good one.
And I welcome you to this edition of the Kingdom Now podcast.
And I am your host, Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino here as the Spitfire serving as the voice of counter-culture Christianity,
(02:24):
where we feature the theme of faith with an edge.
And if you would like to learn more about the world of counter-culture Christianity,
feel free to visit my website at www.kingdompowernow.org
Progressive Pentecostalism doesn't sound like two words that typically go together,
depending on who you ask.
And, in fact, most of us with Pentecostal backgrounds,
(02:45):
probably at one point in time or another would have raised our eyebrow to such a concept.
But believe it or not, Pentecostalism is moving and transforming with the times,
which given the history of Pentecostalism, I would fully expect.
Sometimes they say I don't know how it got so conservative.
But if we look at the history of the movement,
change is coming and it's moving in all sorts of different ways.
(03:09):
today, my guest is Pastor Michael Alford, who is senior pastor at Mount.
How do I pronounce that?
Is Mount Pisgah Apostolic Church for all people?
That works.
Okay, I'm going to let you do that.
Pisgah, I thought that's how it was, but I was just like, let's make sure.
Okay?
And we welcome you to this episode.
(03:31):
And we're very grateful to have you here.
And so please, Pastor, take a moment and introduce yourself.
Well, thank you, thank you, thank you, you're possible for all inviting me.
This is so much fun. I'm so excited.
I, my husband does a podcast.
He's never asked me to be on it.
So I am so thrilled.
(03:52):
I am this grateful that God has allowed me to live 55 years and see what he is doing.
And like you said, we're considered progressive.
But our roots are still very, very apostolic.
And but we have to change our use or different way to
(04:14):
present the gospel that never changes.
But we have to go in different directions because we are serving so many different kinds of people.
Tell you more about me.
I am from the Gulf Coast.
I was raised in Mobile, Alabama.
I'm a fifth generation Pentecostal
(04:34):
I am which humbles me.
I am truly humbled and awe that God chose me.
But it's funny how God does things.
And you know, my family is from Mississippi.
So we, that's where my family got into Pentecostalism was in Mississippi.
(04:59):
And a little community called Leakesville, Mississippi, my great, great grandmother,
Crocker.
She was a Presbyterian.
And she found the truth reading the Bible herself that her pastor said,
do not read the book of Acts.
It's not for us now.
(05:19):
And she's, I can only imagine because I know why.
The lights are there.
Yeah.
So like me and my family, like, if he says don't go there, I'm going to go there.
You know, so she went there and read it over and over and says,
this is what I need.
I need to be baptized in Jesus name.
(05:40):
I need the Holy Ghost, but not knowing what that was.
And the story is that she went to every pastor in that community to be baptized.
Because you know, in the Presbyterian church, they were sprinkled.
Well, she found the Baptist minister that were baptized her in the name of Jesus.
And she was baptized in the name of Jesus.
(06:00):
So my great, great, great grandmother and my great, great grandfather,
only store in this little community.
And his brother, her brother-in-law, was coming from California.
And he got the Holy Ghost in the late 20s through Azusa Street.
And he got the revelation of Jesus name baptism.
(06:23):
And his name was William Crocker.
And he drove all the way back to Mississippi and came into the store.
And they began to talk.
And he told her all that was going on and what happened.
And she stopped and said, stop.
Let me, she went grab your Bible.
And she said, this, just right here, Acts 2.38, he said, yes.
(06:44):
She said, I've been baptized in Jesus name now.
I want that Holy Ghost. And she got the Holy Ghost and they had the first
Pentecostal service in South Mississippi in the late 20s, early 30s.
And they had a brush arbor built in front of the farmhouse.
And they had basically took, had the clothes down in the Presbyterian church
(07:07):
because everybody got the Holy Ghost and got baptized.
Then they moved from there and came to the Baptist church.
And the Baptist people kicked them out because they were converting all the
Baptist and they went to the other church.
So they finally built their own place of worship in their early 30s.
And it was also called Mount Pisgah Pentecostal.
And so, and of course, the UPC and the other churches joined,
(07:31):
well, these two organizers joined and made the United Pentecostal Church in 1945.
And so it was called, now it's all Mount Pisgah, United Pentecostal Church at
Leakesville, Mississippi. So I have a long heritage here of a lot of family that are
preachers, missionaries. You name it. You know, my mom and dad were very involved with church.
My mother was the Ladies auxiliary for 100 years, I think.
(07:55):
And my dad, before he passed, he was still one of the elders of the church, Deacon.
He took care of the church. I was taught, you take care of the church before you take care of your house.
You know, and when I came when I was 14 until my dad said,
that I think of him called into the ministry. He said, great.
Let's get started. So he gives me a bucket and a mop and some cleaners. He said, go clean the bathroom.
(08:21):
I said, how's that ministry? He said, maybe that is ministry.
You are a servant. You serve.
And so that's my growing up is crazy.
But I am so grateful to have the foundation that I have. And unfortunately, you know,
coming out as gay, it's really really big, damper on relationships and the church. But,
(08:52):
you know, let me just tell you how good God is. I came out in 1998 in Atlanta, Georgia,
and my pastor at the time. He had a doctorate in counseling and pastor counseling. And he's a
let's talk. Let's go talk. And after a few sessions of just talking, he said, Michael, you're gay.
(09:15):
And I said, pastor, I can't be. He said, son, if you don't speak it out, you're going to have
a nervous breakdown and you're not going to make it through it. And I stood there and cried. And it
was so hard. But when I said that yes, or I am gay, it was like a mountain came off my shoulders.
(09:38):
He walked around, hugged my neck. I said, now what I'm going to do. I don't have a job now. He's
yes, you do. Because I was doing the music at this church. He said, don't worry about it. You're who
you are, you're who God created. This is United States. And so my life changed in 1998. And here I am.
(09:59):
What is 2024 now. And I am the happiest I've ever been. I am the closest to God I've ever been.
God has opened many, many doors for me. And it's just amazing what God does and how God moved me around.
(10:20):
I'm a cell over the book here. Sorry. But prior to going to Atlanta, Georgia, I went to JCA,
which is Jackson College, a Bible college of the UPC,
of college in Jackson, Mississippi. Awesome, awesome experience. I was so blessed. God opened doors
after doors. He took the shy, backward country kid and helped me blossom into a ministry that I
(10:46):
remember dreamed of being in. And then he brings me to Nashville, Tennessee. When he told me I was
going to Nashville, Tennessee, I was like, God, how can I? I can't do what you call me to do.
The UPC only allows me to do music and requires and worship. I'm allowed to preach. But even because
everybody knew I was gay. And but as long as I don't, is that ask? It was that say don't ask, don't tell
(11:12):
kind of thing. And but everybody knew. But God opened doors 15 years ago for me to start a church
here in Nashville, Tennessee, we started in our home. And I knew God was moving in my life. And
(11:33):
it was very scary. Don't jump into anything. I'm always leery, always procrastinate. You know, I
don't rush into any decisions. And God has to literally push me. So my good friend Shannon, he was doing
music in another church. And he asked me to be his assistant because I was leaving the church,
(11:57):
UPC church. And I didn't get it. And I have been praying to God. You promised, you know,
that I would start a church, a ministry, how am I going to do this? Well, I was praying for my
husband because my husband was not raised Pentecostal. He was raised Catholic and Jehovah's Witnesses.
Then he meets me. And but he was very careful. He's a very, very prayerful man. And I know
(12:27):
when God speaks to him, he will not ask questions. Well, Shannon, my friend said, well,
am I going to start us a church? I'm like, okay. And I said, well, I will have to talk to Sean.
So I came home to Sean. I said, I didn't get the position. You know, and I just really don't know
(12:49):
what to do. I've left the UPC and I don't have more to go. So why don't you just start a church
Michael? I'm like an, oh, dear God. You're you're moving here. And I said, well, do you understand
what that means? He said, no, not, I said, it's not all glam and fabulous and wonderful. It is
(13:10):
heartbreaking, hard, a lot of sleepless nights, a lot of struggles. And I explained it to him. I said,
do you understand? He said, yeah, get it. And we started 15 years ago in our home. And we don't have
a very large home, but we had grew to nine people in our living room and we had to find somewhere to go.
(13:33):
And, you know, we've had our ups and downs. And now the funny thing about it about God is
my great, great, grandmother was a Presbyterian. And the place where we are now,
Rinnning is from the Presbyterian church. Full circle.
Full circle. And the thing about these wonderful Presbyterians, first time I met them,
(13:57):
they say, well, where the frozen chosen? I said, well, not for long.
And I have to fall, to fall y'all out, right? Yes. And God has, God has, and because the
church, they probably have 12 people the most. And they're all age between 80 and 100. And this is a
(14:22):
very nice big, huge building. They only use the fellowship hall and the kitchen. They basically had
shut down the whole church, but that fellowship room where they have services. And the church hasn't
been used in 15 plus years. So they have let us come in and we have basically taken over the building.
(14:43):
We have all the same school rooms set up. We have the church sanctuary, clean,
dusted. We it's all set up, ready to, you know, and we, when we moved in, this come in November
the 6th, we'd be there two years. We moved in their place with six people. And this past Sunday,
(15:06):
we had 23, 40 people watching online and we had like, right at 10 people who are not there because
of sickness or work. This is what's God's doing. This is, I have nothing to do with it. I just passed
her. God grows the church. We love the people. And it's amazing what God is doing. So we've had our
(15:28):
ups and downs at Mount Pesca and God is places and a place in Nashville. On top of all that was funny.
It's the neighborhood is called the Old Hickory Village, which was created in the late 1800s by DuPont.
They built their homes for their employees. Well, it's called the village. And I was telling a friend
(15:48):
who is a real estate lady here in Nashville where we're going. She said, oh honey, do you know
understand what's happening here? I might know. She said, do you realize the village is the second
largest gay neighborhood in Nashville? Really? You're joking. She said, no. Honey, when June comes around,
(16:08):
you see pride legs everywhere, not just by gay people, but allies. This whole community is so
amazing. I was blown out of the water and God is bringing people from the neighborhood. We have
Episcopal people from the Episcopal Church, the Baptist Church, the Methodist Church, the Presbyterian
(16:31):
Church, the Presbyterian people are coming to our church. The pastor is just so welcoming and so
excited about the worship, about the praise and worship music. You know, everything, he was saying
something the other day and I said, sir, I said, we can't call yourself frozen chosen because y'all
sure I've melted a whole lot. Y'all see it was laughing on me because I'll go to the service of
(16:57):
once while in the mornings for them. And he said, you know, if you feel like saying, amen, hallelujah,
praise God, etc. He said, you know, it's scripture. You can do that. And it was like a
lease happening in that place and people start laughing and saying, you know, just I see y'all are not
frozen no more. And they're bringing in praise and worship music. All these 80-year-old people
(17:22):
singing praise and worship. It is just wonderful. And we do come combine services and God moves and
they enjoy the worship people. I mean, one of the Presbyterian men and his wife that come, he has
got the Holy Ghost and baptized in Jesus name. And his wife is 85 and we have Bible studies
(17:48):
on being filled with the Holy Ghost quite a bit. And so these people are very, very hungry for God.
And the thing about it, I call myself progressive cause I'm getting outside of the walls and I'm not
going around judging people. I am saying, hey, you have a relationship with God, but I've got some
just a little bit more that, you know, entice that relationship with God because you can't tell them
(18:12):
that they're not saved because they have a, they've had an experience. They have a relationship and
you just give them more and they're so hungry. So my fact, I have a methodist couple that started
coming to our church, him and his wife and they're so hungry. I was able to baptize them in Jesus
(18:33):
name just a couple of weeks ago and they have transformed and it's funny because he's, he worships
so loud and you couldn't do that in the Methodist church. He said, but I feel free here.
You know, and that's just amazing what God is doing. And then I have another couple, one's
(18:53):
Episcopal, one's Baptist. And I called him this past Sunday with their hands raised,
worshiping. I'm like, oh my God, that's a breakthrough because they've been coming for years and they
said, please don't be offended if we don't worship. I said, no, I'm not offended. Just keep coming.
You know, worship by the way you know how? And it'll, like I said in the last few weeks, they've
(19:17):
been raising their hands and like, see, it's just amazing what God is doing.
I would say I've actually noticed and I think that this is an interesting thing kind of going
along with what you're talking about. I've noticed in videos and in clips and in different things I'm
seeing even out of the UPCI for those who are listening, UPCI's United Pentecostal, which you had
(19:43):
mentioned earlier. Yes. And a lot of apostolic groups, you know, I remember 20 years ago when,
you know, we would have never seen a girl drummer or it was still very controversial about women
preaching. It happened, but it wasn't real common. I am noting a lot of conversations taking place.
(20:05):
So like, for example, they say that we have to be conscientious of the kind of place we're creating
because this generation wants answers. They don't want us to just blow off their questions.
Right. A lot of conscientious actions about, hey, you know, we have to be mindful of how we're
(20:26):
treating people in church. Yes. And I'm not going to lie, I'm not seeing that in other communities,
like I'm seeing it among the apostolic community. And I'm wondering why that is. What it is that
God is doing within apostolic communities that is not happening in other places. Because then a lot
(20:48):
of other churches, they're just kind of pretending like none of this stuff happens. And so I guess I
really am seeing a door for progressive Pentecostalism to move in a much bigger scope than even we're
talking maybe your church, my church, a few other churches that there's really something that's kind
of stirring. And I wonder if you have any insights on what's going on? I think I'm not going to,
(21:12):
because my husband tells me I'm so UPC that it's not even funny. I, I, you know, that's all I've known.
And I'm not going to throw the baby out with the water, you know, the mouthwater. But I believe,
one day, I was with my friend, I was talking to my dear friends, she's UPC and Louisiana, she helps
teach a teacher class for my church on Bible mapping. And anyway, get like a long story short,
(21:39):
we were talking about this. And I believe that when the UPC voted in Bishop David Bernard,
who was a growing, growing educated man, that he encouraged the people of the UPC to go to school,
to educate themselves. And I believe when you get an education, you get outside of that bubble of
(22:04):
the church, and you see that, oh, there is a world outside of the church bubble. And you gain
education and you experience different things and different people. And you realize, oh, they're
not demons. They're not, you know, I just say it that way. But I think, right, you know, Bishop Bernard
(22:28):
has encouraged the church to grow up. Yeah. And and look outside the walls. Now, it's, it's been,
I mean, UPC has gone through kicking and screaming through this process. Trust me. I have family,
I mean, that's my family, all UPC. And I think it's funny that, you know, that the younger
(22:55):
preachers that are coming up, they won't say this out loud. But I know, if quite a few, the ones I know,
they have more gay people in their churches. Yeah. And they're not condemning people. You know,
they let them do music, sing small stuff like that, you know, but they can't be totally involved
(23:21):
because of, you know, the way we were been taught our whole lives. But it's a little bit here, a
little bit there. And you see it gradually coming in. Do you, I believe that the UPC will embrace
the LGBT Christian community? No. But there will be preachers who will. Maybe it won't be everybody,
(23:43):
but there is a move toward it. Yes. Yes. And, and they're seeing because the, what's happened,
they have learned how to learn. They have learned how to do research. And that's what's changing a lot
of the churches is my say, because they say, wait a minute, you know, we've been told to do this,
(24:05):
do this, do this, and don't ask questions. We have gone to school to learn how to ask questions.
Right. And so they're asking questions now. Why is this? What's the, what's the context of this
scripture? What is the meaning of this scripture when it was written, the context, the, you know,
(24:28):
the whole thing? And that's what I think is changing a lot of people. You know, and they're having,
you know, not like I said, the pastor who helped me come out in 1998, you know, I would dare never
say his name because he still pastors. Because I wouldn't want him to get in trouble. Because,
he's, he's stepped out of the norm of the UPC to help me. Right. And he didn't damage me.
(24:59):
He didn't beat me up. And I, and I also believe that was God's way of God doing that because
I'm not so damaged that I cannot pastor. I'm not so beat up that I can't help heal other people.
Now, I've had my issues, but some other people, but I was not destroyed by the church. So God made it
(25:25):
where I can help heal those who are coming to my church because I'm not, have, I don't have that
PTSD that I have to battle as a lot of people do. And I believe God and His great mercy and grace
allowed me to be in this, the right place, the right time. And, you know, not be damaged.
(25:48):
So I can help those now who are coming to my church. And because it is a process, you know, for a lot
of people and you have to be patient, which, which I am not a patient person. And I'm like, God,
(26:08):
why did you pick me? Because I'm not very patient. But I, you know, his, with his grace, I'm doing
what he's called me to do. I mean, he, he knows. And so I guess maybe we can also say there's the
supernatural element in there. So he knows you're not patient. So he gives it to you. You know, in our
(26:29):
power, in our weakness, we find power. Yes. So definitely. I mean, I, I think what you said about
the education is interesting because I don't know how much our listeners know I have not talked about
it a ton, but my education was apostolic. I was apostolic Bible college. And one of the things I
(26:52):
always say that I am most proud of is that I learned to rightly divide there. Yes. That, that
was an emphasis was that we learned to rightly divide that it was not just, all right, here's the
Bible. And it was understood if you could rightly divide, you could wrongly divide. And so there was
a really big focus on that education. And I have often said that I believe it actually is why I'm
(27:19):
where I am today because I learned a spot bad theology and I learned to spot inconsistent theology.
And I think that that's also going on that we're learning to distinguish the traditions of men
from what's actually what God asks us to do. And that's a real dividing point for groups like the
(27:42):
UPCI. It's dividing for apostolics like you say it's not 100% anywhere and you know, it's a process.
And once again, like you said, we got to be patient with our parishioners. We also have to be patient
with the bigger process that's going on. And I think very much that foundation is what kind of led me
(28:03):
to more of a progressive view of a lot of matters. Right. Well, I've learned because I, I, you know,
I've learned that growing up we were, when we were asked questions like you said earlier, we were to
just do what I say. Don't ask questions. You know, so I had to get and come to a place in my life
(28:27):
where I had a question God. Why I had a question I believe. You know, who I really believe in
Ben baptizing Jesus and I really believe in Ben the whole of the goes. Do I really believe live in a
holy life, you know, inward and outward? You know, how to get to that place. And also I did all this
(28:49):
because I went to also to the University of Mobile, which is a Southern Baptist.
Christian school. So I, so I went through a lot of questioning in myself in my faith and I broke it
down and just built it back up. So now, you know, I know what I believe. I know where I stand. And I have
(29:11):
to teach because I do have, I have a lot of people kind of my church or a pentacol, so I have the
pentacol, so holiness. I have the church of God, the P.A.W. U.P.C. I had the A.L.J.C. You know, I had
this in the God. You know, all these pentacol people different, you know, beliefs. And of course, I had the
(29:33):
U.P.C. ladies who come who are lesbians and they, you know, cut their hair short, wear pants during all
that before they came back to church and pray back through to God. And all of a sudden they started
stop cutting the hair, took off their makeup and started wearing skirts and like, wait, wait, wait, wait,
(29:54):
let's talk about this. Now, I believe in holiness. I do, I still believe for myself. I, you know, I cannot
you know, go out in public in shorts, you know, so where my long sleeves, cut my hair short, I don't,
you know, that's just me because I am convicted of that. And so I sat down and said,
(30:14):
why are you doing this? I said, well, we really feel convicted over this. I said, okay,
are you convicted? Are you doing it to please me? It's a no. We feel convicted. That's okay.
Because what I believe is if God convicts you of something and you don't do it, it's a sin.
But if you do it and not being convicted by God and you're doing it to please the pastor or man,
(30:39):
it is a sin also. So, you know, I had to make that, I'll put that out there because I don't want them to
do it for the pastor like we always did growing up. I wanted them to do it because they were truly
convicted in their heart and they're doing it unto God, not man. And I've teach this in my church.
(31:05):
And I hate to say, we are a conservative church, but yet still we're progressive. You know, I teach
modesty. You know, we teach, you know, moderation. You know, people have come to back to church
that they smoked and drink and all that. And I'd have preached against it. I just preached Jesus
(31:30):
and told them get a relationship with God. Let me help you build a relationship. And within months,
they stop smoking, they start drinking and I didn't tell them to do this. And I said, why are you doing
this? He said, they were like, we feel convicted over this. So it's educating people on the word of God,
(31:53):
educating people how to build a relationship with God and allowing the Holy Ghost to change you to
correct you, to clean you up. Not the pastor is not the pastor's job is not the saint's job.
The job of the pastor is to lead you to God. Lead you like that. I'll say lead you to the water. Either
you drink or you don't drink. I'm to love you. Pray for you. Teach you. But now I'm not here there to
(32:19):
condemn you. So how would you define because we keep throwing the term progressive around?
And we did mention that as a major theme. How would you define progressive pentecostalism?
Progressive in the sense that we just don't do churchy things. We get out into the community.
(32:42):
We work with policies of our government. You know, we get involved.
Do some of the totally different from the UPC. You know, we feed the hungry. We support churches,
(33:04):
we're small, but we combine with other churches to feed the hungry. To have the homeless.
We have a severe problem here in Nashville. We have youth homeless youth so bad.
And the last time I've talked to them about this, I was say 80% of the homeless boys,
(33:29):
not counting the other groups, or LGBT kids who were kicked out by Christian homes.
And the last count was 700 boys. That's not counting the girls. That's not counting the transgender
are the by. And they're living on the streets. They're having to do things they shouldn't have to do to survive.
(33:53):
We have great places here for our young people for the daytime to take care of them. But
at night they only have so many beds. And then they have to go back on the streets the next day.
But we have different churches. The Methodist Church here in Nashville are amazing. And I really have built a
(34:18):
lot of relationships with the Methodist ministers here. And of course, Pentecostalism comes out of the
a Westland holiness movement. If you really do study John Wesley, he preached on receiving the Holy
Ghosts. He preached on let and the gifts of the spirit be used in the church. So we are a branch of
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that. And I laugh about Methodist brothers and sisters and siblings about this. I said,
see John Wesley taught this and we're still teaching it. Why aren't you guys doing it? You know,
but they believe in receiving the Holy Ghost, but they don't they don't believe in pressuring
anybody into it, which I get it. I understand it. But they have taught me more about
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being progressive in the sense of doing what God told us to do, taking care of the homeless, the
widows, the orphans, you know, all these things that is part of the gospel that we've never taught
in the UPC. To me, that's progressive. And when I left, that went back to the secular school
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and were taking political science, they brought up this book, Dr. Martin Luther King. And I've heard
about the man, you know, we had the holiday background as kids, but we I never really understood the
impact this man had on our country. And as big I began to read all about him, I was born in
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Mississippi, I grew up in the deep south segregation is still there. It's like driving back when you
drive back to mobiles, like going into another world, you know, especially Mississippi. And so I started
reading and seeing this is part, this is part of what we need to be part doing. And that's, you know,
(36:17):
and having a multicultural church, I'm having to really stay on my toes and learn and read and
educate myself on policies that are put out, not just for LGBT community, but also the Black community,
Hispanic community, you know, we have to fight for our freedom still. And that's part of being
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progressive. That's totally non-UPC. No, the only time they got political was four years ago, or
whenever it was when the last president was put in, no names mentioned, I'm trying to be political.
That's when, because everything I've been taught my whole life was thrown at the back door,
(37:05):
voting for the certain person. And I'm never seen the UPC get so behind a political person until the
end, you know, and so I thought you mentioned that. I thought it was just me because I remember I don't,
we actually back in the day, they didn't touch politics. No, it was like every now and then
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something might have been a little bit implied. Right. But we didn't talk about politics. And very much
like you're saying, there really was no social interaction. There was no social outreach. No,
it was very much about getting everybody baptized in Jesus name, getting everybody speaking in tongues. And
kind of that was going to resolve everything else. And while I will say the church is that I went
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to were more diverse than you experienced. Right. And different part of the country is pretty much
what that is. I mean, you know, they were a little bit more diverse than what you experienced.
It really wasn't there, it's almost like there was no world outside of the church. It was like,
we were in the church and we were a part of this and back in those days. And I'm still sure that
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it's like this in a lot of the churches back in the day. We did not socialize with anybody else. We
did that fellowship with anybody else because they were wrong. They were heretical. They really didn't
have the true faith. And so we were almost kind of like unto ourselves. And there was no social
practicality. There was no dealing with what was going on in greater society. There was no real
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interest in anything outside of what went on often very much in our immediate little church,
which typically they really weren't very big. Right. Well, what really got me
what convicted me is for this way. I was teaching last year in Bible study. And
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I was talking about these things. And God revealed to me, I guess it was just for me. I don't
know who it is. You know, I'm just saying God showed me something. He said, Michael, how can you
win a soul or bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to a soul who is starving physically?
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It's better. And I'm like, what do you mean God? He's like, you first need to feed them physically so
they can receive the gospel of spiritually feeding. Meaning he took me back. He said, you know,
when Jesus teaching on amount of the be attitudes and he had to stop because people get hungry.
And they broke the, you know, and they found a little boy with the lunch and he gave it out to the
(39:55):
people. They ate because he had the reason they did this and God's showing me this. They could not
listen anymore. They could not learn anymore. They couldn't grasp what Jesus was teaching because
they were physically hungry. So their brain just turned off. But once he, if you go back to the
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Bible and once they fed these people again, he went back to teaching. If you ever noticed that and
it got, I'm like, I get it. We can't just shove down the gospel down their throes and expect them to
get it because they're physically hungry and their minds cannot process what we're trying to give them
(40:39):
because they're hungry. So if I need to give them a sandwich of bag of chips and a soda to help
bring them where they need to be so I can tell them about Jesus, that's what needs to be done.
And that's, to me, is very progressive thinking compared to what we came out of.
Very much. Well, and I would say I like your use of the term progressive. I'm going to openly very
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much admit that it's a term that I have tended to try and avoid simply because progressive is
often associated with theology and it's often associated with very, very liberal theology.
And by liberal theology, I mean a universalist outlook, a lot of them do not even see the divinity in
Christ. They might reject things like communion and baptism and they often reject swaths of the
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Bible. You know, the Bible's kind of talked about as allegorical or metaphorical rather than having
any actual relevance. And the thing that I like about what you're talking about progressive is it's an
action that it's getting out and it's doing. And it is actually in the instance you're talking about
(41:55):
motivated by the Bible. Everything that you're talking about doing there is biblical. You know,
it is biblical to feed people who are hungry. It is biblical to work with other people to find
solutions for kids that are homeless or for the issues of the day. And that some things, I don't
want to say that they're not spiritual answers. They're practical answers, but they're practically
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spiritual answers. It's a spiritual action to feed somebody who's hungry because like you say,
that's the opening point for a lot of other things in their lives. And given what you're talking about
because a lot of people don't feel that you can have a safe space and a conservative theology.
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Now I would actually say my church, we're like, we're a moderate theology. We are not totally one way,
we're not really totally the other way. We're very much though, hey, let's learn about context of
the Bible. Let's really get to the center of what this is teaching us. And so what would you say in
reaction to that? Having a theology that still does make people make a choice. How do you reconcile that
(43:11):
with safe space? Oh wow. That's such a big question. And a sense, I guess when I say "cursor" to,
I mean, we got to go back to understand that we are the body of Christ, we the temple of the Holy
(43:35):
Ghost. We were created in the image of God. We believe in holiness. You have to be holy in the heart.
Because holiness is such much, so much more than our outward clothing. It's how we
attitude toward other people, that's holiness. Is our attitude toward ourselves? Is the attitude toward
(44:03):
the word of God and who God is? And this is something else God revealed to me is that, you know,
the word of God says in the beginning, we were created in the image of God. So if you're tearing down
your brother or sister, you're not just tearing down your brother, you're tearing down the image of
(44:24):
God. You're tearing down worship. You're, you're, you're, you're saying God's creation is not good enough,
even though we're created in his image. Right. So when I could say, "cursor" to serve, I'm still teaching
(44:46):
the basic foundation of doctrine of salvation, the basic foundation of holiness, you know,
of our attitude toward everybody around us, teaching, oh another hard thing is for a lot of people
is teaching love your enemies and pray for them. That's holy. Very much so. Yeah. And, you know,
(45:09):
this is what I can sort of conservative still because a lot of people don't do this. You know,
we've got to recognize that we are the billboard of Christ. And if they see you doing something,
you shouldn't be doing because you consider yourself a Christian, your calls and, you know,
Paul says, "I become all things to all men and certain things I cannot do because I make my brother
(45:34):
stumble." You know, but then you have to bring in the progressive thought of what I've been talking about.
And then you got to teach your congregation how to love. Then you got to teach your congregation how
to have mercy and grace. Then you got to teach your congregation how to grow the fruit of this spirit
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and use the gift of the spirits. So to create a safe space within all this, what I've just talked about,
starts with prayer and fasting. And that's humbling in ourselves before God and recognizing who we are
(46:25):
before God because how can you love those who are coming in if you don't love yourself? The reason
I say this is people don't like that. But if I don't love the image of God in me, how can I love the
image in God and someone else coming? And you got to recognize where God has brought us from. God has
(46:46):
put us in situations to learn things that we can turn around and use to help someone else who's coming.
So that's how we create a safe space. You know, I don't come in screaming, hell of fire and brimstone.
I preach, I believe in hell, I believe in heaven and I preach hell, but I preach heaven and Jesus more
(47:09):
because I want you to follow the love of Jesus. And if I can get you to follow the love of Jesus,
I won't have to preach on hell as much.
You know, yes. So when I do say something about hell and sin and hell, it is so much easier to do.
You know how people cringing in their pews because they're in love with Jesus and they say,
(47:33):
oh, you know, they're not worried about it. They know where they're going.
You know, so it's just trying to balance and you know, getting your, find your lane, balance it,
you know, and I look like Dr. King, Dr. King. He, I know the black church has taught me a lot
(47:54):
in studying. They had to teach their members at the church. They had to educate their members
at the church because there was nowhere else they could go and have a large congregation of people,
you know, back in the Jim Crow laws and all, you know, all the craziness that they had to go through.
(48:14):
So yes, they had to teach politics at the church. Yes, they had to educate their people, you know,
teach them how to read and write and all these other things. But that's what the church needs to do now.
Now do I believe in preaching politics from the pulpit? No. The only thing that comes across the pulpit
should become the cross on pulpit is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now, in other times of the week,
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you know, Bible study or whatever, yes, we need to educate ourselves on what's going on in a world
to protect us, these laws that are coming out, you know, we need to educate ourselves. We got to
figure out what we need to do to help keep that law from going into effect. And it's not just for
the LGBT community is for our other brothers and sisters and siblings, our black communities,
(49:04):
where they're trying to keep people from voting, the Hispanic community, you know, just on and on and on.
We have to help each other. And I guess go back, I'm trying to hope I'm and I hope I answered what you
asked me to do. No, you did. You did. Okay. Good. I'll tell you how you did it. Okay. Because I think the way
(49:25):
you did it is important. You're basically saying that it's a reconciliation that if you do it right,
it's just made. Right. I think that it's incorrect to say that liberal communities are always
welcoming and conservative communities are not. I fundamentally feel that I have been in both.
(49:51):
And I have been unwelcome in both. Right. I have been welcome in both. And I think that sometimes
we associate exclusion with conservatism because it's easier. Yeah. It eliminates us from having
(50:13):
the really accepting deal with doctrinal truth. I'm in a group on Facebook. I moderated actually
you're in the same group. And I don't even know if you would remember any of it, but there have been
a couple of times where people come in and it seems like every time they start talking about hell,
there's an argument. And people say, well, that's a traumatic doctrine that you're hurting people with
the LGBTQ community saying you believe in hell. That's not true. Maybe what you were taught about it
(50:39):
was hurtful, but to say that nobody can ever again, as long as you live, talk about hell is wrong.
And I feel that that's wrong in any of these contexts. And so I think that we should not ever
believe that the exclusion of doctrine is automatically accepting or safe.
Right. Any more than we assume that the absence of doctrine is safety. And so you did answer it
(51:07):
that in other words, safety is about more than just what we believe. And it's also about more than
just what we do. It's about both. Right. And that's very much what I got from what you were talking about.
Thank you. I try. I do listen. Now one thing I know that you had wanted me to bring up in this because
(51:29):
where getting later in the episode is about the importance of fellowship with parishioners. Now
because you are talking about fellowship with different churches, you are talking about fellowship
with different people in the community and about different involvements. I know growing up in every
church I went to because I did not just go to Appstalk churches in my history. That was one thing that
(51:53):
nobody really did, particularly the leaders. It was kind of like the leaders were over here and maybe
the leaders hung out with other leaders. But you really didn't see the leaders fellowshiping with
their congregations. And so I would love to hear you talk about that. Oh wow. You know, that's the
same way with me. Very rare to see our pastors fellowship with us. And so I prayed about it and I
(52:21):
think I tell Sean I said, I know how it raised you PC. So I do the total opposite of what they did.
In a sense, I mean, I'm not to disrespect, but everything that I felt that did not work for me
as grown up that I needed. I'm going to do in my ministry. So the reason we chose to do
(52:45):
fellowshiping after our services on Sunday is that how does a shepherd get to know his sheep?
He sits down. He talks and listens. How does the sheep get to know their shepherd? They sit down and
listen to the pastor. And you know, my thing is my congregation, I, I would say 80% of more, 80 to 85%
(53:10):
of the people who come to my church drive over an hour to come to church. Very few people live here
in Nashville. So also that is, you know, give that because I don't get to go spend time with them because
they're hour so away. Now we tried to meet up with everybody ever so often outside of church,
(53:31):
you know, a fellowship. But the reason we do it is because it gives us time to fellowship, to eat,
to laugh, to get to learn each other plus it's a safe place for us. You know, it's not, you know,
we all go to a restaurant and you can't sit there long. First thing, then you get some of us
(53:55):
who are more flamboyant than others. And then you have all these people in the restaurant staring at us
and talking and malking. So it's, it's like a safe space to eat in be ourselves and enjoy the company
of one another plus. It gives the visitors who come to our church and insight to who we are.
(54:19):
And it gives me time to sit with that visitor and talk and get to know them and then get to know me
because we break in bread. And that's what they did in the book of Acts. They broke bread with one
another. They taught. They got to learn. And it's proved to be amazing. My effect is past weekend,
(54:42):
one of the young ladies that come to our church, her mother drove from Memphis. And
she said, Pastor, my daughter is called and begged, please come. Comes to our church. Come see who I
worship with. Come eat my pastor. Come eat the saints. And she said they heard her wife just talk
(55:04):
about us all the time constantly. And she came and she said, I see now why they love this church so
much. She said, I'm blown away by your hospitality, by your love for the people. Everybody in this
(55:24):
congregation came to me and spoke to me, told me their name, got my name. We had dinner together.
And she said, you guys, you or our family. And she said, I don't feel scared no more about my daughter
being here away from me. She said, you guys will take care of them. And she said, I don't see that.
(55:49):
And so that's what we, that's what happens when we have these things going on, you know,
the fellowshiping, the eating, it builds a connection, a strong connection within the church. And
it's not to condemn one another is to help one another. You know, if sister so and so needs prayer,
(56:10):
the whole church knows in their praying, you know, that's what happens. And, you know, we're,
we all people, we have our issues, we have our problems, we have our hiccups, you know, but the
bottom line is we're still family. Family fights, family argues, you know, I'm not saying that's
what happens here. I'm just saying we all are different, but yet still we're family.
(56:37):
Well, and even if that did happen there as you're pointing out, it's not that I normal, it's not that
abnormal. Right. You know, people like you say, don't always agree about everything. And we're,
you're talking about family, right? And family, you're creating family. And that's very, very
essential. I need you to church these days. And I think it's something that's often missing.
(56:58):
If you look at whether the churches are very, very big or very, very small, the one thing they have
in common is it's almost like it's a country club. Yes. You don't really have family. And I really
am inspired that you are making the effort, whether it's creating food, whether it's going out to a
restaurant, whether it's meeting and fellow shipping or having a day or doing something else. Right.
(57:22):
That you are really trying to bridge that gap that exists in order to create community.
Well, in a way, we have to because so many of our members have been kicked out of their homes,
their families don't ever talk to them. You know, they don't have family. And it's the same way of
shot on I with it in the same boat. You know, it's just I don't have family to go home to.
(57:46):
You know, I talked to my mom. My dad passed away three years ago with COVID. We talked every day.
He was more open to me and the church than my mom is. And you know, it's just to keep the peace,
you know, we have to do things that we don't like to do. But I, this is my chosen family. I choose
(58:11):
these people to be my family. And you know, it's just amazing how God worked these things out. And I
want to also say, fellowshiping outside the church. There's a minister alliance here, you know,
amongst the Presbyterian, the Methodist. And I think the Lutheran, well, here comes be bopinian,
(58:32):
this pinnacle, stolegay guy. And pastor Ray, the pastor of the church where we rent, because these people
want them to reach out, learn how to he say you doing everything wrong. Let me bring you somebody to
teach you how to do outreach. And he said, Michael, you need, I need you to come. You need to talk to
these people and help them understand. And, you know, and I go in and I talk to these people. And when
(58:57):
the Presbyterian minister said, you're, you have no problem with your people going to his services.
He's like, no, because I trust him. And he feeds my people. He loves my people. He takes care of my
people. And, in fact, he probably preaching all of our funerals. You know,
at the past, the past or the Presbyterian church in Donaldson was like, wow, he said, I'm still trying
(59:25):
to figure out the Presbyterian and the Pentecostals working together in the first place. And I said,
we're just Presbykostals. I said, because he's like, you're taking on more what, you know,
they believe, you know, worship and everything. And as soon as you can understand, he has taught me,
(59:49):
past or raised taught me some of the most amazing things about the word of God that I will never
had learned prior. Because I had been praying God. I want to go back to school to educate myself. And
he opened this door to this man on Wednesday mornings. I'll go to
Bible study with a whole bunch of people who are from Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Methodist,
(01:00:12):
you name it. And I have learned, it's like going back to school. I have learned so much about the
gospel of Jesus Christ and Jesus that is my emblem. But on the other hand, he tells me, you have taught
me so much more about God that I'm having to go back and rethink everything I have ever learned.
(01:00:34):
About the Holy Ghost, about worship, about, you know, your worship is so raw. He said, I, he said,
I'm pure. So, but I'm learning all these wonderful new ways of worship and, you know, things that
the Methodists do, the Presbyterian do, it kind of a high church thing, I guess you want to say.
(01:01:00):
And it's amazing. Oh, the symbolism of everything, you know, and I'm in awe of that. And that's God
working in our midst. And yes, I get to privilege to work with the Methodist people with, because
they, they're opening their churches up here and creating homeless shelters where they bring
(01:01:26):
the homeless in up the street. They give them a place to sleep, they educate them, they bring doctors in,
they give them mental health, their medication, they help them get back into society, they help them
get jobs and places to live. This is what the Methodist churches are doing, because they have all this
space and their abilities, because, you know, they're, they're current, the young people are leaving
(01:01:49):
going to these mega churches, you know, and not coming back. And so, they're turning the space into
all these things to help the homeless and the homeless youth, you know, that they bring them in,
you know, get them back to where they need to be mentally and physically and spiritually, helps
(01:02:10):
get jobs, help them educate themselves and get their own place to live. You know, it's just amazing.
I'm learning, and so our church is not big enough, but we can go and help.
You know, financial we can give so much, you know, we do what we can. And, you know, I didn't
grow it like you said, we didn't grow it that way. We did not talk to the, we didn't talk to the
(01:02:33):
Baptist. You know, we only talked to the UPC and then we definitely didn't talk to the independent
pentecostals, because, you know, and, you know, it's just like you said, it was just crazy. But I'm like,
no, I'm not going to do this because the thing is, when I sit in that Bible study on Wednesday mornings,
I get 10 different versions of Jesus that's 10 more things to know about God. You know,
(01:03:03):
and it is just amazing and I'm learned how to, I'm able to talk more about my, my beliefs,
I'm being filled with the Holy Ghost more now than I was before because we're not cramming it down
their throats. We're not being a whole other than that on a suffrage righteous. We're not
(01:03:25):
sitting here worshiping our holiness instead of worshiping God. So I meant to that, you know,
it's just, and they're more receptive, even from a gay preacher, they're more receptive now because they
know I am and what I am and what I stand for that they will sit and listen to me teach them
(01:03:48):
on Jesus name baptism, the Oneness of God and then feel the Holy Ghost because, you know, because
on Trinity Sunday, you know, we, they was trying to teach on the Trinitarian viewpoint and he said,
you know, really can't do it. It's just a mystery. I said, no, it's not. Let me tell you.
And so I went and talked about the Oneness of God and Trinitarianism. I said, really, we believe the
(01:04:14):
same thing. We just use different terminology because we believe in the Father and Son of the
Holy Ghost. It's a different approach. I said, 'cause we all believe in one God, we just have different
approach. You get the different terminology to get to God. So yes, I can explain what you're trying
to explain through the Oneness of God and I brought out the scriptures and they sat there and like,
(01:04:35):
wow, we've never heard of that way. So I am preaching the gospel. So in the Methodist and the
Prespirean, you know, so it's wonderful. Well, we are about out of time. Yes. And what I typically do is I
(01:04:58):
turn it over to my guest for a few moments and in summary, what is something you would like to leave
our listeners with as a closing thought? Well, I would like to say above all things.
We're all human beings and we all make mistakes. We all screw up. But I can promise you this.
(01:05:23):
God is not man that he will lie. God is not man that he will disown you. Yes, he gives us a free will.
But he loves us so much that he sent his son to down the cross. And there's hope. There's
(01:05:45):
always hope. Never give up. All you have to do is say the name of Jesus and he is there.
At the mention of his name, he is there. And I am so honored to be called. I'm so in awe of God's grace
and mercy. And I'm very grateful to be the pastor of this church where I'm at Mount Pisgah Apostolic
(01:06:11):
Church. It humbles me. I'm very blessed. But also God loves you. God loves you. And if you want to
reach out to us here in Nashville and you're coming through the visit or you're here in Nashville,
you can always reach us at mpftn.com. You can go there and get all the information about the church,
(01:06:35):
how to connect. We have prayer service on Tuesday night at 6. We have bible study on Thursday nights 6 30. And
we have services at 3 o'clock on Sundays. So thank you, thank you, thank you, apostle,
Lee Ann for allowing me to come on this show. I am so excited and so grateful and so thankful.
(01:07:01):
Hopefully we can touch someone's help heal their hearts today.
Absolutely. And amen to that. And if people would like to get in contact with you, how can they do that?
Same. Just go to mpftn.com. My emails there, my phone numbers there,
in each connection you go through there. Also our church is Mount Pisgah Fellowship on Facebook. We
(01:07:26):
can watch our services. And it's mt period, P-i-s-g-a-h fellowship. And you can find us that way
and watch us and connect to us that way also. Well, that's absolutely wonderful. And we would definitely
love to have you back on. Thank you for coming and for sharing with us. And it's really been a blessing
(01:07:50):
and I believe that it will be a blessing to everybody who listens. I hope so. That's the whole goal of
everything is just to reach one soul and help heal them. Amen. And amen to that. And I thank all of you
for listening today. And if you would like a resource to kind of help you with some questions,
maybe that you have, because we addressed a lot of things on here when we talked about education
(01:08:12):
and we talked about issues relating to that today. I recommend my book, "Just Between Us Christians,
Real Answers to Real Questions" submitted by real Christians. Try saying that five times fast.
That's just between us. Christians, real answers to real questions submitted by real Christians.
It is available in paperback and ebook format. I will also have art cover books that later this year.
(01:08:35):
And so look me up, Dr. Lee Ann B. Marino on amazon.com or wherever books are sold and all of my titles
will come up. There is plenty on there for everybody who is interested. Also follow me on social media.
@kingdompowernow. Add me across the lines Facebook Twitter, TikTok, Instagram and beyond that's
@kingdompowernow. Let's have a conversation. Let's have a discussion. Learn what you like. Learn what you
(01:08:58):
don't like. Maybe you want to ask something or clarification on something. Feel free to reach out once
again. That's @kingdompowernow. Also follow my patheos column leadership on fire. It is about leadership.
So it's for leaders. It's for people interested in leadership. It's for people that want to learn
more about leadership anywhere you're at with that that's at patheos.com/blogsleadershiponfire
(01:09:21):
One of the nice things about pathos is if you don't want to follow every single
author on there, you can just follow me and you'll get updates about that every week in your email
that comes out Wednesday at noon every week. And so that is patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire
Also if you'd like to learn more about the world of counter culture Christianity,
(01:09:43):
feel free to visit my website at kingdompowernow.org. That's kingdompowernow.org. And if you are looking for
a seminary that will expand your horizons education and faith meeting in a practical form by which you
will use everything that you learn. Check out apostolic covenant theological seminary that's acts for
short at acts176.org. That's acts17 6.org. It can be done from a distance and is entirely affordable because
(01:10:11):
we are donation based. So once again, check that out today. Also if you're in the Charlotte, North Carolina
area and you are looking for your community, your found family, feel free to check out the work of
sanctuary, international fellowship tabernacle at welcomeinthisplace.org. That's welcomeinthisplace.org
And if you have any questions that are not answered on the site, feel free to reach out
(01:10:33):
and we will get back to you. And this is Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you in closing.
That progression is about action. And if you claim to be progressive, make sure that you are living
your faith in all things. Until next time, be blessed.
Thank you for joining us on the Kingdom Now podcast today. I pray it is proven to be a blessing
(01:11:00):
in your life. To learn more about this work, ask a question, submit feedback, advertise with us,
be a guest or donate to support this work. As our podcast is sponsored by listeners like you,
visit my website which contains essential information, projects and looks for other points
(01:11:22):
of contact around the web at kingdompowernow.org. Also if you are in our area and would like to
visit sanctuary international Fellowship Tabernacle, visit welcomeinthisplace.org. Until next
time. This is Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you that the Kingdom of God is within you.
(01:11:46):
And that means the Kingdom is now.
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