May 20, 2025 • 63 mins
If you're looking for a place to belong, there's no shortage of options. What does church offer that other organizations do not? Join Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino and guest Minister Charlie Reep of beloved-not-broken.com for a discussion about why church is important, why we need a spiritual place to belong, and how it varies from other organizations. (Intro and Conclusion Track "Ready to Rock" by Yvgeniy Sorokin, https://pixabay.com/users/eugenemyers-40510887/. Empire Transport Track "The Beauty of Green Legends" by DTXN1,https://pixabay.com/users/dtxn1-42017842/.)
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Come in and large your territory with us.
Welcome to Kingdom Now, the podcast featuring Faith with an Edge.
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As we celebrate the Kingdom of God within you.
I am your host, Dr. Lee Ann Marino, apostle, author, podcaster, professor and theologian,
and founder of Spitfire Apostolic Ministries and all the works that go along with it.
I am excited to share this program with you as we explore the ends of counterculture
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Christianity present as you live out the Kingdom of God in your everyday life.
And to learn more, visit my website at www.kingdompowernow.org.
And now, our program, which features a variety of formats here, just for you.
Interviews on a variety of relative topics, teaching and preaching proclaim everywhere from my
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North Carolina studio to sanctuary and beyond.
And powerful insights here for now as we turn the world upside down everywhere we go.
Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
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Happy whatever time of day it is wherever you are and two hour listeners in Thailand, we
say, "Sawat-di."
We hope that whatever time of day when you are listening that you are having a good
one.
And I welcome you to this edition of the Kingdom Now podcast.
And I am your host, Dr. Lee Ann Marino here as the Spitfire serving as the voice of counterculture
Christianity where we feature the theme of faith with an edge.
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And if you would like to learn more about the world of counterculture Christianity, feel
free to visit our website at www.kingdompowernow.org.
We live in a world where memberships are common for one thing or another, whether it's for
the gym, a health club, a society, an organization or something else.
There is no end to the number of organizations that you can belong to.
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So in that world where we have all these different choices, why does church matter?
And what can we get at church that we can't necessarily get at all these other places?
Well, we were kind of volunteered for this podcast by Minister Nik Lewis who I am throwing
that out there because they are going to listen to this.
And I want everybody to know that they put us up to this.
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And then they didn't even want to jump in and have the conversation.
They left it up to Minister Charlie Reep and I, but we love you Nik.
We're just giving you a hard time.
And so we are going to have this conversation on why church matters today.
And my guest is Minister Charlie Reep who is a teacher at Sanctuary International Fellowship
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Tabernacle in Charlotte as well as the moderator host writer.
I don't know what the term is content creator for beloved-not-broken.
com.
All right, Charlie introduce yourself for everyone who doesn't know you.
Well, you've pretty much covered all the titles you covered the website even listed
the URL, which I don't know what the title for that would be, I guess, moderator administrator,
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something like that.
Yeah, I don't know what we call blog people.
Okay.
It's just I've got a website in a blog in one and I updated it.
Yeah, I mean, I guess a fun fact about me that if you've listened to the Kingdom Now podcast
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before, if you've heard my testimony, if you've heard the fandom's incorporated episode,
you know that I'm obsessed with Pacific Rim.
So that's my other bit of introduction because of hostily as to introduce me otherwise.
Yes, I forgot to mention Pacific Rim and Rick rolling your friends.
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Oh, yes, Rick rolling my friends.
I saw a great Rick roll today.
I'm going to have to send it to you when we're done.
Anyway, so why does church matter and wherever we're going to start with this because I think
there's a lot of ways we could start, but I'm going to turn it to you as the guest to kind
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of give some of your thoughts because I'm sure we've thought about this a little bit
here and there.
And I know forgive us all in advance.
It's Friday is we're recording this and we both had a really long week.
So if we get silly or incoherent, that's why, but why would you say church is important?
I mean, what comes to mind is community, but like you're saying, there's memberships literally
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everywhere.
There are all sources of communities out there.
Now whether or not they're free to access is an entirely different thing, but yeah, I'm
trying to, I felt at least bring in my perspective of how I used to think about church.
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I grew up like evangelical Christian, white evangelical Christian, which is different
than black Baptist or whatever.
And I grew up going to church every Sunday.
If we had to miss a Sunday service, it wasn't the end of the world but we rarely did.
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I think it was around college when I started skipping church more often.
My excuse freshman year was, well, I don't have a car and I live on campus.
And there are not many churches within walking distance that I was comfortable with because
I was still very much like I, I believe evangelical Christianity is the only valid form of Christianity,
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specifically like the Southern Baptist persuasion.
So God worked on me a lot in college.
It was great.
It started to, as I started to, you know, have the ability to go to church.
Like friends would invite me.
I had the opportunity to find my own church home.
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It took a while.
I ended up tagging along with some friends and I stayed at a, what we would classify as a
mega church because it had over like 2000 members, but it's not one of the ones that has
multiple campuses.
It was just a big church.
And so I pretty much made that church like my own.
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I would go up pretty much every Sunday.
I would feel guilty for skipping.
I got plugged into ministries there.
And I felt like it was just the right thing to do, like just to go to church to be in attendance,
but it kind of was like, it was giving the same kind of accomplishment as going to school
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and having perfect attendance.
It was just like point of pride that I went to church like every Sunday, but that's pretty
much the only thing that I really got out of it.
Like I enjoyed the sermons.
I enjoyed the teachings.
And in my, in my walk with God where I was at, I enjoyed getting to learn about God, but
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now that I look back, I've like significantly matured and I was like, okay, yeah, I wasn't
going to church for the right reasons.
My intentions were maybe like, we'll get like 25% good and the rest were just kind of selfishly
motivated.
But then as I started to like, once I moved out of my hometown and I started to really make
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my own choices about where I'm at the church, it became so much easier to just sleep in
on Sundays, maybe catch an online service from all of these different mega churches with
campuses.
Like it probably didn't even have to be, I could, I could tune into my parents home church
or anything.
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Mega church in my hometown that offered online streaming, I could catch a service there,
I could hop around to different churches virtually speaking and get the messages that way.
But I definitely wasn't consistent in church attendance and I really started to notice
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the lack of, like I really started to know what was missing when COVID hit and churches
basically closed.
So the church I had been going to at the time was doing the online Facebook streaming and
so I would catch the sermons, but not being around other people, I was very, I like, we were
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all isolated during COVID, I was very concerned about catching COVID, I was borderline paranoid
about it and so I avoided pretty much any in-person gatherings as much as possible.
And it definitely took a toll on my mental health.
I became a lot more anxious, I became a lot more like it was a lot easier for me to get emotionally
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down, it was a lot harder for me to find joy and things and it wasn't until Minister Nik
invited me to sanctuary because we were having it, they were, because y'all were having sanctuary
at their place like by me.
And I went and it was literally just like a gathering in Nik's Living Room.
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I don't remember how many people there was, it was a handful, definitely wasn't what I
would consider church, but I just remember y'all praying for me and like I felt the Holy
Spirit move for like one of the first times in my life and I was like, oh okay this is different
and so that really motivated me to start coming back to sanctuary and then as we've grown
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closer as a church family, I have really started to notice that church is a place when done
correctly.
It is a place where people from different walks of life can come together over their identity
in Christ and we support each other through hard times, we pray for each other, we hold each
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other accountable for things and accountability isn't just like, okay you've sinned, let's
do better next time, it's more of a hey are you getting enough water to drink, are you getting
enough sleep, are you going outside for fresh air every once in a while, is making sure
like our friends are practicing self-care but also that they're getting their needs met,
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it's like hey are we, are you feeling seen, are you feeling hurt, are you feeling validated?
It's, and to use the word community, it feels very reductive because it doesn't encompass
the whole of, I feel like what the Found family aspect is about, it's very much, yeah I
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feel like we have really watered down the definition of community these days, especially
especially with, I would say for profit enterprises co-opting the word community as a way to
get people to buy their products or sign up for a service and we almost need to reclaim
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the word community and be like hey no, we need to get like back to the roots of community
and this is, this is what it means to be in community and basically the church is one
of the main sources of community because it can meet more than just your emotional needs
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like it meets spiritual needs, it meets, you know depending on the church, depending on the
outreach programs, it can meet specific like financial needs, it can meet all these other
needs that maybe get over little social, social for sure, for sure and like community
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encompasses more than just social needs, I feel like that's how it's used today but you
know we need to be able to basically be there for each other when inevitably we clash with
systems that do not have our benefits in mind, yeah I'm thinking specifically of the
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blog post I wrote called systems exploit communities support and no matter how well-intentioned
the system is, people are going to be let down by the system because the system is not
designed to help every single person and a status that is that's where community comes in
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because community is like hey we don't have as many limitations as a system does and
I'm sure we can talk about this more over the podcast but definitely yeah kind of you
know thoughts so yeah that will be I'll have you pick up where we're leading off now.
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Well that's really cool and I guess I had wondered how we were going to do this and I think
that starting with our stories is a great place to start and so I'm going to kind of jump
in here of how I kind of came to my own because I guess you could kind of say we had similar
stories that are also a little bit different and I'm going to start by saying I grew up in
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what I classified the original mega church and by that I grew up in the Catholic church
and the reality is that where I grew up at the time and this is in the 80s and the 90s
the church was about 2,000 people and that would constitute by modern standards to be
a mega church the difference is it was the Catholic church and so the function is not the
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same as a mega church but I grew up with the idea that weekly mass was an obligation because
in the Catholic church it is in other words if you call yourself a Catholic and you're baptized
and you're you're considering yourself a member you are technically obligated to go to mass
every Sunday or weekend because they would do they would have mass on Saturday it was called
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the vigil and that would count as your weekend obligation and you had to go every holy day
of obligation and there were so many of those throughout the year there was Christmas
day and January 1st is the feast of Mary Mother of God I believe that that's one and there
are a few specified days throughout the year where Catholics were obliged to go to mass
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and for that reason I think that I kind of had a weird relationship with church and what
I mean by that is when I was not in Catholic school which was up until I was in 5th grade
so I went to Catholic school in 5th grade when I was in public school going to mass was
weird it was something very out of the ordinary and I will admit to being a little bit detached
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from church because I was not there on the regular basis when I went to Catholic school going
to church was like second nature because we did it all the time we had monthly masses
and each age group would take different aspects of the service on and I was an altar server
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which you know basically what they would call an altar boy except I wasn't a boy we they
opened it up to girls in the 90s I actually was very upset to find out they've backtracked
on that in a lot of places but I served on the altar I was very very involved in the church
for a long time and when I hit about 9th grade between junior high and 9th grade I kind of
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started wavering a little bit when I was in junior high and then when I got to be in high
school my family left the church the first time because we would we would return and then
we would leave again we let the first time after a bad incident I mean if I was going to
be honest I would say we were kind of looking for something probably more than an obligation
if I was going to describe it out of a bunch of people just going every week and going
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there and I've often stated when you're in us a church like that God obviously knows
all of us and sees all of us and I understand that now but in those days I really did not
understand God seeing me as an individual God saw me because I was a part of this bigger
group and if he heard my prayers it was because I said them as part of this bigger group God
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really didn't understand or know me as a person and I remember when I was in my late teens
somewhere around 16-17 I actually thought about converting to Judaism and the reason for that
was because I loved the idea of God picking out people and recognizing them and seeing them
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and having that relationship with God and I didn't really understand that I could have
a relationship with God that even transcended that idea at the time and I would go on and
you know there's a lot of details we're going to skip here I wound up in Apostolic Bible
College because it was the only place that would take me at that age and I wound up
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going on an interview for a religion project at a charismatic church and I met the woman
who invited me to go with her to church and at the time I was already in not really
doing well with the Catholic church anymore and it was time to leave and I was staying too
long at the fair as they would say in hindsight and skipping over a whole lot of drama I went
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to church with her and I was like I said I'd save the first time as we would say with the
joke and I started to explore the idea of that relationship and what I will say is probably
over the next decade so between about 17 and 27 I really didn't find quite the footing
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I always looked for in church and I always was you know attended to be interested I visited
a lot of churches to see what they did and have the experience of learning what they did
hands on I belonged kind of nominally to a couple of churches in the area over that time frame
I would say maybe two two or three I kind of was a nominal member I really wasn't an official
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member but I was there enough to where you know they would have said I was you know involved
and I was in ministry and I at a some point later in time tried to have my own church
which didn't really work out at that point in time you know had a couple of people in and
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out nobody really had any reason why they didn't stay they just really didn't stick around
and after a while of that I pretty much I'm going to say kind of dropped out of church and
I was a minister which is the irony at the time I was technically in ordained pastor and
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I really kind of was trying to circumvent the whole church thing and I was still very apostolic
at the time in doctrine in in other words you know the hair and the the not wearing pants
very much up north it's kind of hard not to wear pants but you know not wearing pants not
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really wearing makeup King James only I got married the first time and my husband
was also apostolic and that wound up being a really bad combination especially the more
I grew and in there I moved to Kentucky and I in part made the move there because there
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was a ministry that had expressed interest in working with me and having been out of church
so long by that point in time it hadn't been real long but I mean you know might have been
like a year or two but you know at that point in time it might as well have been 30 I
tried to go to a church there I really gave it my all and I will never forget they would
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have prayer the church chapel was open every day and they had a prayer group that meant
on Thursdays and I was within walking distance of the church and so I would go down there
for prayer or you know if I was working because at the time for a little while I worked for
one of the members of the church I'd be down there and I was sitting in the church and
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the woman was asking me you know did I go anywhere else and I said no I just kind of felt
like this is where I was supposed to be and she said to me and when it's time for you
to leave you'll know that was Thursday now I had no intention of leaving the church that
Sunday they had a guest speaker and I knew I was done there and so like in that when you're
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when it's time to move on you'll know I knew and I moved on and when I lived in Kentucky
I didn't really fit anywhere there I mean we visited a couple churches it didn't really
work and then a little while later I moved to North Carolina and I fellowshiped with different
ministries but I really once again did not have a church I did not really have church again
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until I worked with a minister in around 2013 we had a church and I helped him with it and
it did not wind up lasting and then sanctuary had a church in Raleigh for about a year and
that wound up not not not lasting and so it really has not been until I moved to the
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Charles area and started sanctuary again that I really had any type of real church community
not for a lot of years we could say in the early years when I was first saved and first
I was charismatic and then I went more apostolic I did have church community then but obviously
like I'm saying it really didn't last and this is actually really been in terms of having
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church outside of me being Catholic the longest that I've had that type of connection and
what I would say is that I was one of these types of people who really bucked the idea
of needing community and I'm gathering from Chuck's sound that you're not really finding
that surprising.
No, because it's also like yeah it's also it seems like a common theme.
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Yeah, I really kind of went on the premise of not really needing anybody and not you know
wanting to develop my own faith in that it wasn't going to be in a building and that is
that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is what I'm going
to tell you okay and this is might be a really odd confession from somebody who leaves
a church and whose lead ministries and churches all over the world at different points in
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time.
What I would say is that you want to know what if you really want to just be one of these
types of believers that is going to live on an island somewhere and you're going to grow
all your own food and you're going to sleep on a stone rock because you can't have a pillow
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because that would be too comfortable and you really want to just pray all day.
And go for it.
But these half-hearted attempts where we just don't want authority where we really just
don't want to have to learn how to play well with others where we really just don't want
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to deal with the social aspects of stuff and I'm going to make an argument that people
have been making for ages you know we can go to McDonald's a hundred times and they get
our order wrong and we're still going to go back but we go to church once and someone
looks at us funny and we're hurt and we don't want to go back to church.
We don't want to have to learn how to engage our faith with other people and this attempt
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to try and stay out of community, stay out of church isn't excuse to do that and I will
level with you that I was a doctrinal church person.
I was in church not for the social aspect not for the community I went because I believed
in the doctorate and that meant that I could have sat there until Jesus himself returned
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and I'd ever talked to another soul in the church and I would have stayed there because
that's kind of a belief.
But what I think that God has really started to deal with me over the years and the word
that I would use to describe this is koinonia and koinonia is the Greek word for fellowship
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that we find in the New Testament and notice that fellowship is literally in every single
ministry that this ministry has.
So we have safe ministries with sanctuary apostolic fellowship empowerment ministries and so
that's got fellowship in it.
Then we have sanctuary international fellowship tabernacle which has fellowship in it because
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it's the idea of the worldwide connection that binds us together as family in Christ.
That creates new family and whether we like it or not part of our work of salvation is
to learn how to engage with the family of Christ.
So that being said, the community is really, really important and it may not be a "doctrinal
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matter" in terms of what we say in a statement of faith but it is an essential part of our
faith experience as believers.
Imma need like five minutes to process that last mic drop in that because wow I'm hearing
you're pointing out like a lot of the underlying issues that we have with.
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It's not just that we don't, like it's not just the self-sufficiency issue.
Like I feel like as American Christians like we have this idea that I mean you keep saying
it all the time it's just me and Jesus and it's like no, no, no.
I realize that independence is a very, it's a very core American value but that's you
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know, it doesn't necessarily belong in Christianity.
But so here you say that, okay that's not the only issue, the issue is also we don't want,
we don't want to be held accountable to anybody.
We don't want to play well with others.
I think the playing nice with others especially is the thing that's resonating with me just
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because I mean we joke all the time about that oh turn to your neighbor thing and how
what, like two out of the three leaders at sanctuary are like no thank you.
I of course as the as the platonic flirt of the group I would absolutely talk people
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up at the turn to your neighbor thing but I understand that that's not a common, that's
not a common thing I mean I even remember when I was doing a TikTok video about something
that JD Greer said and I ended up turning it into a blog post about church size basically
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his point was that in talking about favoritism from the study on I think it's James chapter
two is what they were covering in church that day but basically he was like you know
we need to devote more time in church to actually getting to know people who walk in here
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because too many of the people who show up at the church that he is pastoring it end up
leaving without meeting a single person and in a mega church that's almost unfathomable
you think about how many campuses a church like a mega church might have you think about
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there's 2000 people at every single campus and what do you mean you can't you don't know
a single person there like if anything you should have the most friends at a mega church
but that's you know we're pretty much noticing the inverse we're like the smaller almost
the smaller churches you go to the more friends you have in those churches that's at least
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been my experience the smaller churches I went to the more friends I had and yeah I think
it's I think there's a lot of pride in here too where you know we think that we're too good
for community that we don't have needs that need to be met that you know oh well God can
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meet all of our needs it's like yes God can meet all of our needs but God also meets our
needs through other people so right yeah it's yeah the idea that like we don't like community
because we don't like playing well with others that idea is going to be living rent free in
my brain for a while thank you for that you're welcome but it's I think that there's a
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lot of truth in it I think that one of the reasons why we fundamentally stay away from church
in modern society is because we don't want to deal with ourselves and I think that to
be fair I don't really think people get the message that they're going to have to deal
with themselves if they look at the average mega church or they look at the average church
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on TV or like the average preacher because they really aren't getting down to the issues
that we face as people that are all part of human nature as I'm we're recording this I'm
going to be doing a service in about two weeks and I'm going to be talking about anxiety
and what really came to me as I've been doing it is that if it's mentioned in scripture
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it's universal enough that we can say on some level everybody experiences it and I'm
also going to say that that's true of judgment and that's true of pride and the way that
it might manifest might look a little different for somebody else it might even look that way
in a way that people really don't understand it or see it for themselves for what it is but
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it's still a universal thing some part of us knows that if we go to church and we really
get serious with God that God's going to start dealing with us about stuff and people
don't want to do that they really don't want to deal with that discomfort and fundamentally
that is a very big reason why people stay away and I'm the first one to say that you know
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what going to church should not be total drudgery okay I don't think that we should be going
to church and it should be so awful that we don't want to be there I love that we love
the music and we get into it and we play cards against humanity after that is our
official card game and I have made the joke you know we're preparing actually for Easter
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Sunday and I said are we going to play games or something after I was talking to one of the
other leaders and they said well you know we usually do yeah and I said I guess I should bring
some I said but you know if we ask a certain someone and the person I'm referring to is my husband
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we ask should we bring cards should we bring a game he's going to want cards against humanity
and I said so this is what I'm going to do I'm not going to bring it because it's a good game that
everybody can play as if you have a crowd but I will also bring a couple of board games as well but
you know that's that's kind of a second point what I'm getting at is we should be able to go to church
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and have a good time we should be able to go to church and enjoy ourselves and enjoy the fellowship
it shouldn't just be everybody in our face all the time it should be something bigger than that
and broader than that and I mean but at the same token we are all being dealt with by God in different ways
and God is dealing with us whether it's about our self-image whether it's about our jobs whether
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it's about the issues that we harbor that we deal with on our jobs whether it's stuff that's just
coming to light because we are existing God is dealing with us about a lot of things
and we need that community to get through that because I can tell you how difficult it is
to be going through that with God and have nobody to talk to or to share with about it yeah
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and it becomes there's a reason the Bible tells us to bear one another's burdens
because in some way shape or form the things that we're dealing with somebody else is going to
deal with it at some point in time too maybe not in the same exact way or feeling and for me
and I will have a pathos column by the time this airs that will be out I believe it's going to be
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out the first week in May I think it's May 7th and it's six reasons people go to church that
have nothing to do with doctrine and it was inspired by somebody I'm not going to get into who
but the column and the things that we examine and are all of the reasons we need to be in church
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and all the reasons why for saking not assembling ourselves together like the Bible says is very
very essential and one of the major ones or I would say most of them revolve around community
some of them are about figuring out what we believe you know we expect people to show up at church
and have everything that they believe figured out it don't work like that
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about connecting with other people about sharing with other people about learning more about God
about seeing what other people believe there's a lot of reasons why we need church that are not just
about something on paper that our universal experiences that are very important
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yes, we're just going to head out of the five-minute pause while I process all of this.
Amen.
Do do do do. I just couldn't resist.
Do do do. Well we're not in jeopardy that's why that's funny because it doesn't really fit.
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You had the opportunity to rickroll me and you missed it.
Oh my goodness next time.
Next time.
Well no I next next time you know good that would actually be kind of funny.
Actually that's not a bad idea.
Oh my goodness.
I don't know I don't know if we could actually legally do it that would be the only thing with the
(37:58):
rights but that would be a great idea for the podcast just get everybody together we have an
announcement here it is everybody just for you and then we rickroll everyone.
Yes.
[Laughter]
I mean something we might want to talk about now that we've discussed the importance of
(38:20):
community that we've ruined everyone's life.
Right it's like maybe what community looks like because if you go to these churches where
you know you're pretty much in your own little bubble even though you're surrounded by people
you know that's not that's kind of very good metric of community and so
I mean my mind immediately goes to I believe it's Acts 2 where
(38:45):
it's talking about the early church and I'm actually going to look at Upbrokewick because
let me see up I rickrolled myself I have a 404 no no so the context is I have a 404 error page on my website
(39:09):
and it includes a .gif of Rick Asley from that music video.
I tight in the URL incorrectly and I got that 404 error page
I that's how I record myself but now I found the post I was looking for it is actually the
(39:33):
sermon that I preached for my ordination I ended up doing a companion piece called Pacific Rim found
families in the early church and that's the that is the post that's looking at and the passage is
(39:53):
Acts 2:42-47 I think this is from the NIV they devoted themselves the apostles teaching
and to fellowship to the breaking of bread and to prayer everyone was filled with awe at the
many wonders and signs performed by the apostles all the believers were together and had everything in
common they sold property and possessions to get to anyone who had need every day they continued to
(40:15):
meet together in the temple courts they broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad
hearts praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people and the Lord added daily
and the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved so that was the
early church like these are Jewish converts who had been filled with the Holy Spirit
(40:36):
during the day at Pentecost and God's family just crossed from there now
we I would say that sanctuary does a fair amount of this you know we don't go to the temple like
there's we don't have a temple like you know and we certainly don't do it every day like we don't
(41:01):
I wish we could meet up every day but as it is we pretty much just we know we're well pretty much
just much meet up on Sundays instead of meeting in like a a public assembly like a public
house of worship we go to each other's homes we've already got that intimacy there
(41:22):
I mean I guess we do practice communion with breaking of bread whenever we go to
whenever we go to alfax takeouts and we you know they give us the free bread we definitely have
communion over that that's that's kind of a fun memory that's the best bread really is so good
(41:44):
yeah I think well to vote themselves to the Apostle's teaching I mean one thing that's really
interesting about sanctuary or at least among the leadership is that we can be
out doing something fun like where we have we're it's like a Saturday we we have no plans to do
(42:05):
anything church related we're like going to the mall you're going shopping we're in the car
and God hits us with something and we just start talking about Christianity stuff we start talking
about doctrine we start talking about some other topic that's spiritual related and I think that
(42:27):
that is a crucial part of community where being able to discuss your faith openly and without
judgment is really refreshing and I realized that that is a privilege that people around the world
do not have and all the more reason why I think that people in the US need to be taken community
(42:55):
seriously because it's like hey we have this privilege you're taking it for granted like if you
go if you go somewhere else like I know that with with with with evangelical Christians being all
about sharing the gospel in you know overseas countries that will be like you know in places where
(43:17):
Christianity has historically been for at least 2000 years it's not necessarily safe to practice your
faith there and it's like where you know we think that you have that we have to like shout from the
rooftops at these places where Christians are persecuted it's like why can't we just do that
(43:37):
here why can't we talk about faith with each other here like why does it have to be something that
we reserve only when we go overseas for mission trips mm-hmm I think that's a really good point and I'm
thinking of a meme I once saw and it said that churches are definitely there for praising God but
(44:02):
so our car trips and visits to the gym at 2 in the morning and going out to eat and that's what that
makes me think of because I think that when we limit church to it just being a Sunday morning thing
(44:22):
that we go to that's a service we're kind of missing the point and that's what I think that God
is done for me is that I really I guess I wanted an experience that was deeper than just in a
obligatory Sunday morning event and when it's like you say church is not just something that we go to
(44:45):
it's something we're supposed to be and so sometimes we have the deepest most spiritual conversations
in the car or at the restaurant after the service yeah or on a Tuesday night after we all had a
long day and we all start in the discord because it's it's something that we've become it's something
(45:10):
that we have become about that by going to church and by connecting and finding that family
and by going to church and having that experience and I don't know how to put it you know being
a part of that family and being accountable and mutually submitting and sharing what we have to offer
(45:36):
and having that mutual experience it's giving us something more from it than we had before
and it opens the door to find God in so many different ways in our lives then that maybe we imagine
if we're just going to a church where we don't know anyone and I think what you said about the
(45:57):
mega churches is important because you think hey you should have a thousand friends right but because
the churches are so big you don't know anybody it's like you kind of slide under the radar you slide
in you slide out and you can be going there for two years and nobody knows who you are or even
knows that you're there and that's where smaller churches and smaller groups offer that community
(46:21):
and that ability to do what you need to do and to grow the way you need to grow because you find
that fellowship there I mean I think specifically about going back to your previous point about
church is something we're supposed to be I'm going to quote a marvel movie real quick but I promise
(46:42):
it's going to be relevant I believe it's from Thor Ragnarok which I think is one of the better
of the Thor movies but in it not to give spoilers but to give spoilers the asgard where Thor is from
experiences in a bit called Ragnarok which is basically the indifference world and all of the
(47:08):
people from asgard have nowhere left to go and that's when Thor says something about asgard is in a
place it's a people and so yeah and I am meeting I heard that and I was like that it's very similar
to a Bible verse I couldn't tell you what Bible verse it is but the concept is that churches
(47:30):
in the building church is the congregation and isn't it true that the original Greek word for
church is something like assembly yeah it actually means to call out
or the group of people that are called out in other words that God has kind of called us out
(47:53):
to come together yeah so I feel like we do churches is service when we think that it's only something
that happens in a building and only something that can happen in a designated building we even have
I mean admittedly when I first started coming to sanctuary I kind of had this I was like looking
(48:17):
down on y'all because I was like what what good is a church that meets in someone's living room and
only has like you know a handful of people but then God having a sincere humor literally proving
that day that I came through the prayer the Holy Spirit moving and I experienced that from the
first time and I'm like oh this is what I've been missing so it's a kind of like petty like oh
(48:41):
ha ha don't underestimate any kind of thing but forget where I was going with that but basically we do
ourselves a disservice too when we think that church has to be in a certain building that the
building has to look a certain way that there has to be a certain amount of people in order for
(49:02):
it to be valid but somewhere in the New Testament it is a verse that says we're two or three are gathered
together their Lord is and that basically makes church it's just if you're two people who love God
you know it like basically come together and you can be doing something that just interests you
(49:28):
as we've you know discovered when we go to like the mall or something we're in the car and
then we get all sorts of revelations and stuff it's like church can be anywhere church can be with any one
and if we open our minds to all of that church can be if we open our minds to
(49:52):
what the Holy Spirit can do through us through other people it's really amazing what can happen
and it's really amazing too like how different people can be but God can still bring them together
I mean I'm thinking just go ahead that's amazing yeah yeah no go yeah sorry I got on the roll here
(50:15):
it's like all right let's go locked in but I was thinking specifically about the Bible works it
goes there's neither Jew nor Greeks or Latin or free male or female I'm thinking about how the things
that divide us in this world cannot like possibly overcome the one thing that unites us and I'm thinking
(50:36):
specifically today you know we don't get caught up over the distinction between
Jew and Greek or Jew and Gentile we get caught up over you know conservative politics progressive
politics we get caught up over sports teams we get caught up over are you LGBTQ affirming or do you
(50:56):
think that being clear as a sin are you do you believe that like evangelical Christianity is the only
valid expression or do you think that only the Catholic Church is the one church or the Orthodox
Church is the one church etc etc we have all these different divisions that we get caught up
over but when we're in church when we're in community for the right reasons when we have our eyes
(51:22):
focused on God none of that matters like yeah we can we can still kind of my heads about it but it's not
going to ruin our relationships at the end of the day because we know that those things don't
find us together like politics doesn't bond us together it's Christ who bonds us together
amen to that and I think that to me I would say is the bottom line of the difference between
(51:51):
why church matters versus the world's events you can find some level of involvement and
support and participation in any type of group you want to belong to now though they often have
their own rules so like you say some of them might cost money in fact a lot of them probably do if not
(52:17):
most of them or there's some sort of exclusionary subtext and it like you can only belong as long as
you are x y and I'm thinking specifically with fandom culture yes because fandom culture is a community
where you have people who get together because they like a specific thing I'll use specific ribbons
in example because that's my interest but oh how can I know how can I know we can all get together
(52:43):
and be super excited whenever like there's their releasing graphic novels in the next few years
and so we can all get together and be excited about that but at the end of the day we don't
what unites us we have our own differences about which characters we think should be in a relationship
(53:06):
which fanfiction tropes we like more when we inevitably butt heads about people's portrayal of the
characters in fanfiction or fan arts those evisions are a little bit too big they hope they
overshadow basically our unity of being interested in Pacific Rim but unlike
(53:27):
with fandom culture in church our unity in Christ overshadows any differences we could possibly have
so that is the difference. Definitely that at the end of the day too the Pacific Rim community is
not going to be there right when you're having a crisis at two in the morning or when you want to
(53:55):
talk about something that's not Pacific Rim you know there might be some people in there that you
tap on some things with but when you get outside of that fandom there isn't really anybody there
and I think that that strikes me as being the most important thing because church should be a
place where we can all grow. We should not be the people we were two or three years ago if we're
(54:21):
doing church right and the reality is that we're not and I'm even thinking now as sanctuary grows
and the thing that God really kind of spoke to me about earlier in the year was to watch for
unconventional growth and that's exactly what's happened that we have people who maybe aren't really
looking to become members of a church who one in particular I'm thinking of is an atheist who will
(54:47):
stick around in our Bible studies and listen to us talk. Yep. And we'll come to spend that and
entertain our conversations about church while they're around. Mm-hmm.
Because they need the fellowship in the community and part of them knows that.
I'm thinking of somebody else who told me just yesterday and I'm not going to say who it is but
(55:10):
told me how much they're really liking church. Nice. And I was really surprised at that because I'm
not going to lie to you all this was somebody I did not see ever coming to church. And then one day
all by themselves are you going church tomorrow yet can I come? And it just kind of happened. And
(55:33):
is it somebody who is at a different place in their faith than we are? Mm-hmm. And so we've got all
these different people starting to come along and starting to be with us whether it's people who
drop in on occasion which we have somebody who does that. And we've got some who come and visit and
(55:56):
stick around. We've got other people who are really making the commitment to be there every week.
There's so many different dimensions if you will to what community looks like. And we as a church
have to be open enough and honest enough and ready and willing to receive people in their
(56:18):
different places so that we can all figure this out together as we kind of go along. And that is
something you will not get in community anywhere else. Mm-hmm.
Well this actually was a really fast hour. They're not bad for two people who are
(56:39):
volant told to do a topic and we didn't know where to start.
Volant told had no idea what we were going to talk about and who are tired. So I mean that's
pretty amazing. Well you know the drill. I typically turn over the episode to my guest for a final
thought. And so what is something on this particular topic that you would like to leave our listeners with?
(57:02):
That community is more than just introducing yourself to somebody at church. I mean it starts like
that. It starts with stepping out of your comfort zone. Maybe doing the whole turn to your neighbor
saying but it's consistency that makes community. And as hard as difficult as it is,
(57:27):
consistency ultimately pays off. And the discomfort that you feel in the beginning, the
awkwardness of feeling the beginning, well I'll be worth it when you have a found family that shares your
faith in Christ. Amen to that. Well I thank you for being on here and you know you're going to be
(57:54):
back. We've got to get ready for season seven. And also you're going to jump back on here next
Thursday to record with Nick. So we'll have to think of a topic to volunteer then for.
And how can everybody get in contact with you if they would like? Yeah so you can I have a contact
form through my website that is beloved-not-broken.com. The heading is questions but you know you can also
(58:24):
just send me a message there. It doesn't have to be a question. And yeah if you're on Tumblr I am
also on Tumblr. Beloved-not-broken. And you can find me and DM me there.
All right that sounds great. Well I thank you for being on today and I thank all of you guys for
(58:46):
listening. And let's start out with some resources that might actually really be a blessing to you.
I'm going to recommend my book, Ministry School Basic Training, be all that you can be in
Gods Army, a guide for lay members. That's Ministry School Basic Training, a guide for lay
membership. And I encourage you to go check that book out because it is specifically what it says.
(59:11):
It's basically an introduction to participation in church and church membership. And so it's not
your average, hey I got saved book what's next. It really is about integrating into community,
about beliefs, about learning more about scripture. And so go check that out today. Look me up
Dr. Lee Ann B. Marino on Amazon.com or wherever books are sold and my titles do come up.
(59:33):
There are over 37 in total actually soon to be 38. We're getting ready for another release.
And so definitely watch for that and check that out. Also if you are interested in leadership,
want to know more about it. If you're in it, if you just like to read about it,
check out my pathos column leadership on fire at patheos.com/blogs/leadership
(59:57):
on fire. That's patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire. And as I mentioned earlier, I recently released an
episode that specifically talked about six reasons why people go to church that have nothing to do with
doctrine. And so definitely go check that out and learn a little bit more about church interactions
and church relationships and community today. It's definitely worth your time and you can
(01:00:22):
subscribe to it. So definitely do that today. Also connect with me across social media @kingdompowernow
That's @KingdomPower Now. Let's start that conversation on Facebook, Twitter,
TikTok, Instagram, Blue Sky, TikTok, anywhere else that you can imagine. We are on there @kingdompowernow
Let's learn what you like, what you want to hear more of, what you'd like to see
(01:00:46):
differently. Suggestions for season seven and more. So let's connect across social media,
reach out to me today. Also, if you'd like to learn more about the world of counterculture
Christianity, feel free to visit my website at kingdompowernow.org. That's kingdompowernow.org.
If you are looking for seminary that is entirely affordable, that is donation based. That's
(01:01:07):
you can do from anywhere in the world at home. I encourage you to check out Abastolic Covenant
Theological Seminary that's ACTS for Short at Acts176.org. That's acts176.org. And if you are ready to
take that step into community and you are in the Charlotte, North Carolina area, even if you're visiting,
even if you're passing through, feel free to reach out to us at Sanctuary at WelcomeInThisPlace.org.
(01:01:33):
That's WelcomeInThisPlace.org. And if you have a question that's not answered on the website,
feel free to reach out to any one of us and we will get back to you as soon as we can. And this is
a possible Dr. Leigh Enmerino reminding you in closing that fellowship matters and where we
fellowship matters. We can't do this alone because God puts us in a body. And so our relationships with
(01:01:56):
other people are just as important as our relationship with Christ. Until next time, be blessed.
Thank you for joining us on the Kingdom Now podcast today. I pray it is proven to be a blessing in your life.
To learn more about this work, ask a question, submit feedback, advertise with us, be a guest,
(01:02:21):
or donate to support this work. As our podcast is sponsored by listeners like you,
visit my website which contains essential information, projects and works for other points of
contact around the web at kingdompowernow.org. Also, if you are in our area and would like to visit
(01:02:41):
Sanctuary interational Fellowship Tabernacle, visit WelcomeInThisPlace.org. Until next time,
this is Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you that the Kingdom of God is within you.
And that means the Kingdom is now.
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Welcome to Kingdom Now, the podcast featuring Faith with an Edge.
(00:54):
As we celebrate the Kingdom of God within you.
I am your host, Dr. Lee Ann Marino, apostle, author, podcaster, professor and theologian,
and founder of Spitfire Apostolic Ministries and all the works that go along with it.
I am excited to share this program with you as we explore the ends of counterculture
(01:16):
Christianity present as you live out the Kingdom of God in your everyday life.
And to learn more, visit my website at www.kingdompowernow.org.
And now, our program, which features a variety of formats here, just for you.
Interviews on a variety of relative topics, teaching and preaching proclaim everywhere from my
(01:39):
North Carolina studio to sanctuary and beyond.
And powerful insights here for now as we turn the world upside down everywhere we go.
Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
(02:01):
Happy whatever time of day it is wherever you are and two hour listeners in Thailand, we
say, "Sawat-di."
We hope that whatever time of day when you are listening that you are having a good
one.
And I welcome you to this edition of the Kingdom Now podcast.
And I am your host, Dr. Lee Ann Marino here as the Spitfire serving as the voice of counterculture
Christianity where we feature the theme of faith with an edge.
(02:24):
And if you would like to learn more about the world of counterculture Christianity, feel
free to visit our website at www.kingdompowernow.org.
We live in a world where memberships are common for one thing or another, whether it's for
the gym, a health club, a society, an organization or something else.
There is no end to the number of organizations that you can belong to.
(02:48):
So in that world where we have all these different choices, why does church matter?
And what can we get at church that we can't necessarily get at all these other places?
Well, we were kind of volunteered for this podcast by Minister Nik Lewis who I am throwing
that out there because they are going to listen to this.
And I want everybody to know that they put us up to this.
(03:10):
And then they didn't even want to jump in and have the conversation.
They left it up to Minister Charlie Reep and I, but we love you Nik.
We're just giving you a hard time.
And so we are going to have this conversation on why church matters today.
And my guest is Minister Charlie Reep who is a teacher at Sanctuary International Fellowship
(03:31):
Tabernacle in Charlotte as well as the moderator host writer.
I don't know what the term is content creator for beloved-not-broken.
com.
All right, Charlie introduce yourself for everyone who doesn't know you.
Well, you've pretty much covered all the titles you covered the website even listed
the URL, which I don't know what the title for that would be, I guess, moderator administrator,
(03:57):
something like that.
Yeah, I don't know what we call blog people.
Okay.
It's just I've got a website in a blog in one and I updated it.
Yeah, I mean, I guess a fun fact about me that if you've listened to the Kingdom Now podcast
(04:20):
before, if you've heard my testimony, if you've heard the fandom's incorporated episode,
you know that I'm obsessed with Pacific Rim.
So that's my other bit of introduction because of hostily as to introduce me otherwise.
Yes, I forgot to mention Pacific Rim and Rick rolling your friends.
(04:45):
Oh, yes, Rick rolling my friends.
I saw a great Rick roll today.
I'm going to have to send it to you when we're done.
Anyway, so why does church matter and wherever we're going to start with this because I think
there's a lot of ways we could start, but I'm going to turn it to you as the guest to kind
(05:08):
of give some of your thoughts because I'm sure we've thought about this a little bit
here and there.
And I know forgive us all in advance.
It's Friday is we're recording this and we both had a really long week.
So if we get silly or incoherent, that's why, but why would you say church is important?
I mean, what comes to mind is community, but like you're saying, there's memberships literally
(05:33):
everywhere.
There are all sources of communities out there.
Now whether or not they're free to access is an entirely different thing, but yeah, I'm
trying to, I felt at least bring in my perspective of how I used to think about church.
(05:57):
I grew up like evangelical Christian, white evangelical Christian, which is different
than black Baptist or whatever.
And I grew up going to church every Sunday.
If we had to miss a Sunday service, it wasn't the end of the world but we rarely did.
(06:22):
I think it was around college when I started skipping church more often.
My excuse freshman year was, well, I don't have a car and I live on campus.
And there are not many churches within walking distance that I was comfortable with because
I was still very much like I, I believe evangelical Christianity is the only valid form of Christianity,
(06:47):
specifically like the Southern Baptist persuasion.
So God worked on me a lot in college.
It was great.
It started to, as I started to, you know, have the ability to go to church.
Like friends would invite me.
I had the opportunity to find my own church home.
(07:10):
It took a while.
I ended up tagging along with some friends and I stayed at a, what we would classify as a
mega church because it had over like 2000 members, but it's not one of the ones that has
multiple campuses.
It was just a big church.
And so I pretty much made that church like my own.
(07:31):
I would go up pretty much every Sunday.
I would feel guilty for skipping.
I got plugged into ministries there.
And I felt like it was just the right thing to do, like just to go to church to be in attendance,
but it kind of was like, it was giving the same kind of accomplishment as going to school
(07:53):
and having perfect attendance.
It was just like point of pride that I went to church like every Sunday, but that's pretty
much the only thing that I really got out of it.
Like I enjoyed the sermons.
I enjoyed the teachings.
And in my, in my walk with God where I was at, I enjoyed getting to learn about God, but
(08:18):
now that I look back, I've like significantly matured and I was like, okay, yeah, I wasn't
going to church for the right reasons.
My intentions were maybe like, we'll get like 25% good and the rest were just kind of selfishly
motivated.
But then as I started to like, once I moved out of my hometown and I started to really make
(08:43):
my own choices about where I'm at the church, it became so much easier to just sleep in
on Sundays, maybe catch an online service from all of these different mega churches with
campuses.
Like it probably didn't even have to be, I could, I could tune into my parents home church
or anything.
(09:03):
Mega church in my hometown that offered online streaming, I could catch a service there,
I could hop around to different churches virtually speaking and get the messages that way.
But I definitely wasn't consistent in church attendance and I really started to notice
(09:28):
the lack of, like I really started to know what was missing when COVID hit and churches
basically closed.
So the church I had been going to at the time was doing the online Facebook streaming and
so I would catch the sermons, but not being around other people, I was very, I like, we were
(09:53):
all isolated during COVID, I was very concerned about catching COVID, I was borderline paranoid
about it and so I avoided pretty much any in-person gatherings as much as possible.
And it definitely took a toll on my mental health.
I became a lot more anxious, I became a lot more like it was a lot easier for me to get emotionally
(10:20):
down, it was a lot harder for me to find joy and things and it wasn't until Minister Nik
invited me to sanctuary because we were having it, they were, because y'all were having sanctuary
at their place like by me.
And I went and it was literally just like a gathering in Nik's Living Room.
(10:44):
I don't remember how many people there was, it was a handful, definitely wasn't what I
would consider church, but I just remember y'all praying for me and like I felt the Holy
Spirit move for like one of the first times in my life and I was like, oh okay this is different
and so that really motivated me to start coming back to sanctuary and then as we've grown
(11:10):
closer as a church family, I have really started to notice that church is a place when done
correctly.
It is a place where people from different walks of life can come together over their identity
in Christ and we support each other through hard times, we pray for each other, we hold each
(11:36):
other accountable for things and accountability isn't just like, okay you've sinned, let's
do better next time, it's more of a hey are you getting enough water to drink, are you getting
enough sleep, are you going outside for fresh air every once in a while, is making sure
like our friends are practicing self-care but also that they're getting their needs met,
(12:03):
it's like hey are we, are you feeling seen, are you feeling hurt, are you feeling validated?
It's, and to use the word community, it feels very reductive because it doesn't encompass
the whole of, I feel like what the Found family aspect is about, it's very much, yeah I
(12:31):
feel like we have really watered down the definition of community these days, especially
especially with, I would say for profit enterprises co-opting the word community as a way to
get people to buy their products or sign up for a service and we almost need to reclaim
(12:54):
the word community and be like hey no, we need to get like back to the roots of community
and this is, this is what it means to be in community and basically the church is one
of the main sources of community because it can meet more than just your emotional needs
(13:14):
like it meets spiritual needs, it meets, you know depending on the church, depending on the
outreach programs, it can meet specific like financial needs, it can meet all these other
needs that maybe get over little social, social for sure, for sure and like community
(13:36):
encompasses more than just social needs, I feel like that's how it's used today but you
know we need to be able to basically be there for each other when inevitably we clash with
systems that do not have our benefits in mind, yeah I'm thinking specifically of the
(13:56):
blog post I wrote called systems exploit communities support and no matter how well-intentioned
the system is, people are going to be let down by the system because the system is not
designed to help every single person and a status that is that's where community comes in
(14:21):
because community is like hey we don't have as many limitations as a system does and
I'm sure we can talk about this more over the podcast but definitely yeah kind of you
know thoughts so yeah that will be I'll have you pick up where we're leading off now.
(14:43):
Well that's really cool and I guess I had wondered how we were going to do this and I think
that starting with our stories is a great place to start and so I'm going to kind of jump
in here of how I kind of came to my own because I guess you could kind of say we had similar
stories that are also a little bit different and I'm going to start by saying I grew up in
(15:08):
what I classified the original mega church and by that I grew up in the Catholic church
and the reality is that where I grew up at the time and this is in the 80s and the 90s
the church was about 2,000 people and that would constitute by modern standards to be
a mega church the difference is it was the Catholic church and so the function is not the
(15:34):
same as a mega church but I grew up with the idea that weekly mass was an obligation because
in the Catholic church it is in other words if you call yourself a Catholic and you're baptized
and you're you're considering yourself a member you are technically obligated to go to mass
every Sunday or weekend because they would do they would have mass on Saturday it was called
(15:59):
the vigil and that would count as your weekend obligation and you had to go every holy day
of obligation and there were so many of those throughout the year there was Christmas
day and January 1st is the feast of Mary Mother of God I believe that that's one and there
are a few specified days throughout the year where Catholics were obliged to go to mass
(16:20):
and for that reason I think that I kind of had a weird relationship with church and what
I mean by that is when I was not in Catholic school which was up until I was in 5th grade
so I went to Catholic school in 5th grade when I was in public school going to mass was
weird it was something very out of the ordinary and I will admit to being a little bit detached
(16:47):
from church because I was not there on the regular basis when I went to Catholic school going
to church was like second nature because we did it all the time we had monthly masses
and each age group would take different aspects of the service on and I was an altar server
(17:10):
which you know basically what they would call an altar boy except I wasn't a boy we they
opened it up to girls in the 90s I actually was very upset to find out they've backtracked
on that in a lot of places but I served on the altar I was very very involved in the church
for a long time and when I hit about 9th grade between junior high and 9th grade I kind of
(17:36):
started wavering a little bit when I was in junior high and then when I got to be in high
school my family left the church the first time because we would we would return and then
we would leave again we let the first time after a bad incident I mean if I was going to
be honest I would say we were kind of looking for something probably more than an obligation
if I was going to describe it out of a bunch of people just going every week and going
(18:01):
there and I've often stated when you're in us a church like that God obviously knows
all of us and sees all of us and I understand that now but in those days I really did not
understand God seeing me as an individual God saw me because I was a part of this bigger
group and if he heard my prayers it was because I said them as part of this bigger group God
(18:27):
really didn't understand or know me as a person and I remember when I was in my late teens
somewhere around 16-17 I actually thought about converting to Judaism and the reason for that
was because I loved the idea of God picking out people and recognizing them and seeing them
(18:49):
and having that relationship with God and I didn't really understand that I could have
a relationship with God that even transcended that idea at the time and I would go on and
you know there's a lot of details we're going to skip here I wound up in Apostolic Bible
College because it was the only place that would take me at that age and I wound up
(19:12):
going on an interview for a religion project at a charismatic church and I met the woman
who invited me to go with her to church and at the time I was already in not really
doing well with the Catholic church anymore and it was time to leave and I was staying too
long at the fair as they would say in hindsight and skipping over a whole lot of drama I went
(19:37):
to church with her and I was like I said I'd save the first time as we would say with the
joke and I started to explore the idea of that relationship and what I will say is probably
over the next decade so between about 17 and 27 I really didn't find quite the footing
(20:04):
I always looked for in church and I always was you know attended to be interested I visited
a lot of churches to see what they did and have the experience of learning what they did
hands on I belonged kind of nominally to a couple of churches in the area over that time frame
I would say maybe two two or three I kind of was a nominal member I really wasn't an official
(20:28):
member but I was there enough to where you know they would have said I was you know involved
and I was in ministry and I at a some point later in time tried to have my own church
which didn't really work out at that point in time you know had a couple of people in and
(20:49):
out nobody really had any reason why they didn't stay they just really didn't stick around
and after a while of that I pretty much I'm going to say kind of dropped out of church and
I was a minister which is the irony at the time I was technically in ordained pastor and
(21:13):
I really kind of was trying to circumvent the whole church thing and I was still very apostolic
at the time in doctrine in in other words you know the hair and the the not wearing pants
very much up north it's kind of hard not to wear pants but you know not wearing pants not
(21:35):
really wearing makeup King James only I got married the first time and my husband
was also apostolic and that wound up being a really bad combination especially the more
I grew and in there I moved to Kentucky and I in part made the move there because there
(21:56):
was a ministry that had expressed interest in working with me and having been out of church
so long by that point in time it hadn't been real long but I mean you know might have been
like a year or two but you know at that point in time it might as well have been 30 I
tried to go to a church there I really gave it my all and I will never forget they would
(22:22):
have prayer the church chapel was open every day and they had a prayer group that meant
on Thursdays and I was within walking distance of the church and so I would go down there
for prayer or you know if I was working because at the time for a little while I worked for
one of the members of the church I'd be down there and I was sitting in the church and
(22:44):
the woman was asking me you know did I go anywhere else and I said no I just kind of felt
like this is where I was supposed to be and she said to me and when it's time for you
to leave you'll know that was Thursday now I had no intention of leaving the church that
Sunday they had a guest speaker and I knew I was done there and so like in that when you're
(23:10):
when it's time to move on you'll know I knew and I moved on and when I lived in Kentucky
I didn't really fit anywhere there I mean we visited a couple churches it didn't really
work and then a little while later I moved to North Carolina and I fellowshiped with different
ministries but I really once again did not have a church I did not really have church again
(23:34):
until I worked with a minister in around 2013 we had a church and I helped him with it and
it did not wind up lasting and then sanctuary had a church in Raleigh for about a year and
that wound up not not not lasting and so it really has not been until I moved to the
(23:57):
Charles area and started sanctuary again that I really had any type of real church community
not for a lot of years we could say in the early years when I was first saved and first
I was charismatic and then I went more apostolic I did have church community then but obviously
like I'm saying it really didn't last and this is actually really been in terms of having
(24:22):
church outside of me being Catholic the longest that I've had that type of connection and
what I would say is that I was one of these types of people who really bucked the idea
of needing community and I'm gathering from Chuck's sound that you're not really finding
that surprising.
No, because it's also like yeah it's also it seems like a common theme.
(24:48):
Yeah, I really kind of went on the premise of not really needing anybody and not you know
wanting to develop my own faith in that it wasn't going to be in a building and that is
that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is what I'm going
to tell you okay and this is might be a really odd confession from somebody who leaves
a church and whose lead ministries and churches all over the world at different points in
(25:11):
time.
What I would say is that you want to know what if you really want to just be one of these
types of believers that is going to live on an island somewhere and you're going to grow
all your own food and you're going to sleep on a stone rock because you can't have a pillow
(25:35):
because that would be too comfortable and you really want to just pray all day.
And go for it.
But these half-hearted attempts where we just don't want authority where we really just
don't want to have to learn how to play well with others where we really just don't want
(26:00):
to deal with the social aspects of stuff and I'm going to make an argument that people
have been making for ages you know we can go to McDonald's a hundred times and they get
our order wrong and we're still going to go back but we go to church once and someone
looks at us funny and we're hurt and we don't want to go back to church.
We don't want to have to learn how to engage our faith with other people and this attempt
(26:25):
to try and stay out of community, stay out of church isn't excuse to do that and I will
level with you that I was a doctrinal church person.
I was in church not for the social aspect not for the community I went because I believed
in the doctorate and that meant that I could have sat there until Jesus himself returned
(26:48):
and I'd ever talked to another soul in the church and I would have stayed there because
that's kind of a belief.
But what I think that God has really started to deal with me over the years and the word
that I would use to describe this is koinonia and koinonia is the Greek word for fellowship
(27:16):
that we find in the New Testament and notice that fellowship is literally in every single
ministry that this ministry has.
So we have safe ministries with sanctuary apostolic fellowship empowerment ministries and so
that's got fellowship in it.
Then we have sanctuary international fellowship tabernacle which has fellowship in it because
(27:40):
it's the idea of the worldwide connection that binds us together as family in Christ.
That creates new family and whether we like it or not part of our work of salvation is
to learn how to engage with the family of Christ.
So that being said, the community is really, really important and it may not be a "doctrinal
(28:07):
matter" in terms of what we say in a statement of faith but it is an essential part of our
faith experience as believers.
Imma need like five minutes to process that last mic drop in that because wow I'm hearing
you're pointing out like a lot of the underlying issues that we have with.
(28:34):
It's not just that we don't, like it's not just the self-sufficiency issue.
Like I feel like as American Christians like we have this idea that I mean you keep saying
it all the time it's just me and Jesus and it's like no, no, no.
I realize that independence is a very, it's a very core American value but that's you
(29:03):
know, it doesn't necessarily belong in Christianity.
But so here you say that, okay that's not the only issue, the issue is also we don't want,
we don't want to be held accountable to anybody.
We don't want to play well with others.
I think the playing nice with others especially is the thing that's resonating with me just
(29:27):
because I mean we joke all the time about that oh turn to your neighbor thing and how
what, like two out of the three leaders at sanctuary are like no thank you.
I of course as the as the platonic flirt of the group I would absolutely talk people
(29:48):
up at the turn to your neighbor thing but I understand that that's not a common, that's
not a common thing I mean I even remember when I was doing a TikTok video about something
that JD Greer said and I ended up turning it into a blog post about church size basically
(30:11):
his point was that in talking about favoritism from the study on I think it's James chapter
two is what they were covering in church that day but basically he was like you know
we need to devote more time in church to actually getting to know people who walk in here
(30:32):
because too many of the people who show up at the church that he is pastoring it end up
leaving without meeting a single person and in a mega church that's almost unfathomable
you think about how many campuses a church like a mega church might have you think about
(30:52):
there's 2000 people at every single campus and what do you mean you can't you don't know
a single person there like if anything you should have the most friends at a mega church
but that's you know we're pretty much noticing the inverse we're like the smaller almost
the smaller churches you go to the more friends you have in those churches that's at least
(31:17):
been my experience the smaller churches I went to the more friends I had and yeah I think
it's I think there's a lot of pride in here too where you know we think that we're too good
for community that we don't have needs that need to be met that you know oh well God can
(31:38):
meet all of our needs it's like yes God can meet all of our needs but God also meets our
needs through other people so right yeah it's yeah the idea that like we don't like community
because we don't like playing well with others that idea is going to be living rent free in
my brain for a while thank you for that you're welcome but it's I think that there's a
(32:01):
lot of truth in it I think that one of the reasons why we fundamentally stay away from church
in modern society is because we don't want to deal with ourselves and I think that to
be fair I don't really think people get the message that they're going to have to deal
with themselves if they look at the average mega church or they look at the average church
(32:27):
on TV or like the average preacher because they really aren't getting down to the issues
that we face as people that are all part of human nature as I'm we're recording this I'm
going to be doing a service in about two weeks and I'm going to be talking about anxiety
and what really came to me as I've been doing it is that if it's mentioned in scripture
(32:49):
it's universal enough that we can say on some level everybody experiences it and I'm
also going to say that that's true of judgment and that's true of pride and the way that
it might manifest might look a little different for somebody else it might even look that way
in a way that people really don't understand it or see it for themselves for what it is but
(33:12):
it's still a universal thing some part of us knows that if we go to church and we really
get serious with God that God's going to start dealing with us about stuff and people
don't want to do that they really don't want to deal with that discomfort and fundamentally
that is a very big reason why people stay away and I'm the first one to say that you know
(33:35):
what going to church should not be total drudgery okay I don't think that we should be going
to church and it should be so awful that we don't want to be there I love that we love
the music and we get into it and we play cards against humanity after that is our
official card game and I have made the joke you know we're preparing actually for Easter
(33:57):
Sunday and I said are we going to play games or something after I was talking to one of the
other leaders and they said well you know we usually do yeah and I said I guess I should bring
some I said but you know if we ask a certain someone and the person I'm referring to is my husband
(34:18):
we ask should we bring cards should we bring a game he's going to want cards against humanity
and I said so this is what I'm going to do I'm not going to bring it because it's a good game that
everybody can play as if you have a crowd but I will also bring a couple of board games as well but
you know that's that's kind of a second point what I'm getting at is we should be able to go to church
(34:39):
and have a good time we should be able to go to church and enjoy ourselves and enjoy the fellowship
it shouldn't just be everybody in our face all the time it should be something bigger than that
and broader than that and I mean but at the same token we are all being dealt with by God in different ways
and God is dealing with us whether it's about our self-image whether it's about our jobs whether
(35:07):
it's about the issues that we harbor that we deal with on our jobs whether it's stuff that's just
coming to light because we are existing God is dealing with us about a lot of things
and we need that community to get through that because I can tell you how difficult it is
to be going through that with God and have nobody to talk to or to share with about it yeah
(35:31):
and it becomes there's a reason the Bible tells us to bear one another's burdens
because in some way shape or form the things that we're dealing with somebody else is going to
deal with it at some point in time too maybe not in the same exact way or feeling and for me
and I will have a pathos column by the time this airs that will be out I believe it's going to be
(35:57):
out the first week in May I think it's May 7th and it's six reasons people go to church that
have nothing to do with doctrine and it was inspired by somebody I'm not going to get into who
but the column and the things that we examine and are all of the reasons we need to be in church
(36:18):
and all the reasons why for saking not assembling ourselves together like the Bible says is very
very essential and one of the major ones or I would say most of them revolve around community
some of them are about figuring out what we believe you know we expect people to show up at church
and have everything that they believe figured out it don't work like that
(36:40):
about connecting with other people about sharing with other people about learning more about God
about seeing what other people believe there's a lot of reasons why we need church that are not just
about something on paper that our universal experiences that are very important
(37:09):
yes, we're just going to head out of the five-minute pause while I process all of this.
Amen.
Do do do do. I just couldn't resist.
Do do do. Well we're not in jeopardy that's why that's funny because it doesn't really fit.
(37:34):
You had the opportunity to rickroll me and you missed it.
Oh my goodness next time.
Next time.
Well no I next next time you know good that would actually be kind of funny.
Actually that's not a bad idea.
Oh my goodness.
I don't know I don't know if we could actually legally do it that would be the only thing with the
(37:58):
rights but that would be a great idea for the podcast just get everybody together we have an
announcement here it is everybody just for you and then we rickroll everyone.
Yes.
[Laughter]
I mean something we might want to talk about now that we've discussed the importance of
(38:20):
community that we've ruined everyone's life.
Right it's like maybe what community looks like because if you go to these churches where
you know you're pretty much in your own little bubble even though you're surrounded by people
you know that's not that's kind of very good metric of community and so
I mean my mind immediately goes to I believe it's Acts 2 where
(38:45):
it's talking about the early church and I'm actually going to look at Upbrokewick because
let me see up I rickrolled myself I have a 404 no no so the context is I have a 404 error page on my website
(39:09):
and it includes a .gif of Rick Asley from that music video.
I tight in the URL incorrectly and I got that 404 error page
I that's how I record myself but now I found the post I was looking for it is actually the
(39:33):
sermon that I preached for my ordination I ended up doing a companion piece called Pacific Rim found
families in the early church and that's the that is the post that's looking at and the passage is
(39:53):
Acts 2:42-47 I think this is from the NIV they devoted themselves the apostles teaching
and to fellowship to the breaking of bread and to prayer everyone was filled with awe at the
many wonders and signs performed by the apostles all the believers were together and had everything in
common they sold property and possessions to get to anyone who had need every day they continued to
(40:15):
meet together in the temple courts they broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad
hearts praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people and the Lord added daily
and the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved so that was the
early church like these are Jewish converts who had been filled with the Holy Spirit
(40:36):
during the day at Pentecost and God's family just crossed from there now
we I would say that sanctuary does a fair amount of this you know we don't go to the temple like
there's we don't have a temple like you know and we certainly don't do it every day like we don't
(41:01):
I wish we could meet up every day but as it is we pretty much just we know we're well pretty much
just much meet up on Sundays instead of meeting in like a a public assembly like a public
house of worship we go to each other's homes we've already got that intimacy there
(41:22):
I mean I guess we do practice communion with breaking of bread whenever we go to
whenever we go to alfax takeouts and we you know they give us the free bread we definitely have
communion over that that's that's kind of a fun memory that's the best bread really is so good
(41:44):
yeah I think well to vote themselves to the Apostle's teaching I mean one thing that's really
interesting about sanctuary or at least among the leadership is that we can be
out doing something fun like where we have we're it's like a Saturday we we have no plans to do
(42:05):
anything church related we're like going to the mall you're going shopping we're in the car
and God hits us with something and we just start talking about Christianity stuff we start talking
about doctrine we start talking about some other topic that's spiritual related and I think that
(42:27):
that is a crucial part of community where being able to discuss your faith openly and without
judgment is really refreshing and I realized that that is a privilege that people around the world
do not have and all the more reason why I think that people in the US need to be taken community
(42:55):
seriously because it's like hey we have this privilege you're taking it for granted like if you
go if you go somewhere else like I know that with with with with evangelical Christians being all
about sharing the gospel in you know overseas countries that will be like you know in places where
(43:17):
Christianity has historically been for at least 2000 years it's not necessarily safe to practice your
faith there and it's like where you know we think that you have that we have to like shout from the
rooftops at these places where Christians are persecuted it's like why can't we just do that
(43:37):
here why can't we talk about faith with each other here like why does it have to be something that
we reserve only when we go overseas for mission trips mm-hmm I think that's a really good point and I'm
thinking of a meme I once saw and it said that churches are definitely there for praising God but
(44:02):
so our car trips and visits to the gym at 2 in the morning and going out to eat and that's what that
makes me think of because I think that when we limit church to it just being a Sunday morning thing
(44:22):
that we go to that's a service we're kind of missing the point and that's what I think that God
is done for me is that I really I guess I wanted an experience that was deeper than just in a
obligatory Sunday morning event and when it's like you say church is not just something that we go to
(44:45):
it's something we're supposed to be and so sometimes we have the deepest most spiritual conversations
in the car or at the restaurant after the service yeah or on a Tuesday night after we all had a
long day and we all start in the discord because it's it's something that we've become it's something
(45:10):
that we have become about that by going to church and by connecting and finding that family
and by going to church and having that experience and I don't know how to put it you know being
a part of that family and being accountable and mutually submitting and sharing what we have to offer
(45:36):
and having that mutual experience it's giving us something more from it than we had before
and it opens the door to find God in so many different ways in our lives then that maybe we imagine
if we're just going to a church where we don't know anyone and I think what you said about the
(45:57):
mega churches is important because you think hey you should have a thousand friends right but because
the churches are so big you don't know anybody it's like you kind of slide under the radar you slide
in you slide out and you can be going there for two years and nobody knows who you are or even
knows that you're there and that's where smaller churches and smaller groups offer that community
(46:21):
and that ability to do what you need to do and to grow the way you need to grow because you find
that fellowship there I mean I think specifically about going back to your previous point about
church is something we're supposed to be I'm going to quote a marvel movie real quick but I promise
(46:42):
it's going to be relevant I believe it's from Thor Ragnarok which I think is one of the better
of the Thor movies but in it not to give spoilers but to give spoilers the asgard where Thor is from
experiences in a bit called Ragnarok which is basically the indifference world and all of the
(47:08):
people from asgard have nowhere left to go and that's when Thor says something about asgard is in a
place it's a people and so yeah and I am meeting I heard that and I was like that it's very similar
to a Bible verse I couldn't tell you what Bible verse it is but the concept is that churches
(47:30):
in the building church is the congregation and isn't it true that the original Greek word for
church is something like assembly yeah it actually means to call out
or the group of people that are called out in other words that God has kind of called us out
(47:53):
to come together yeah so I feel like we do churches is service when we think that it's only something
that happens in a building and only something that can happen in a designated building we even have
I mean admittedly when I first started coming to sanctuary I kind of had this I was like looking
(48:17):
down on y'all because I was like what what good is a church that meets in someone's living room and
only has like you know a handful of people but then God having a sincere humor literally proving
that day that I came through the prayer the Holy Spirit moving and I experienced that from the
first time and I'm like oh this is what I've been missing so it's a kind of like petty like oh
(48:41):
ha ha don't underestimate any kind of thing but forget where I was going with that but basically we do
ourselves a disservice too when we think that church has to be in a certain building that the
building has to look a certain way that there has to be a certain amount of people in order for
(49:02):
it to be valid but somewhere in the New Testament it is a verse that says we're two or three are gathered
together their Lord is and that basically makes church it's just if you're two people who love God
you know it like basically come together and you can be doing something that just interests you
(49:28):
as we've you know discovered when we go to like the mall or something we're in the car and
then we get all sorts of revelations and stuff it's like church can be anywhere church can be with any one
and if we open our minds to all of that church can be if we open our minds to
(49:52):
what the Holy Spirit can do through us through other people it's really amazing what can happen
and it's really amazing too like how different people can be but God can still bring them together
I mean I'm thinking just go ahead that's amazing yeah yeah no go yeah sorry I got on the roll here
(50:15):
it's like all right let's go locked in but I was thinking specifically about the Bible works it
goes there's neither Jew nor Greeks or Latin or free male or female I'm thinking about how the things
that divide us in this world cannot like possibly overcome the one thing that unites us and I'm thinking
(50:36):
specifically today you know we don't get caught up over the distinction between
Jew and Greek or Jew and Gentile we get caught up over you know conservative politics progressive
politics we get caught up over sports teams we get caught up over are you LGBTQ affirming or do you
(50:56):
think that being clear as a sin are you do you believe that like evangelical Christianity is the only
valid expression or do you think that only the Catholic Church is the one church or the Orthodox
Church is the one church etc etc we have all these different divisions that we get caught up
over but when we're in church when we're in community for the right reasons when we have our eyes
(51:22):
focused on God none of that matters like yeah we can we can still kind of my heads about it but it's not
going to ruin our relationships at the end of the day because we know that those things don't
find us together like politics doesn't bond us together it's Christ who bonds us together
amen to that and I think that to me I would say is the bottom line of the difference between
(51:51):
why church matters versus the world's events you can find some level of involvement and
support and participation in any type of group you want to belong to now though they often have
their own rules so like you say some of them might cost money in fact a lot of them probably do if not
(52:17):
most of them or there's some sort of exclusionary subtext and it like you can only belong as long as
you are x y and I'm thinking specifically with fandom culture yes because fandom culture is a community
where you have people who get together because they like a specific thing I'll use specific ribbons
in example because that's my interest but oh how can I know how can I know we can all get together
(52:43):
and be super excited whenever like there's their releasing graphic novels in the next few years
and so we can all get together and be excited about that but at the end of the day we don't
what unites us we have our own differences about which characters we think should be in a relationship
(53:06):
which fanfiction tropes we like more when we inevitably butt heads about people's portrayal of the
characters in fanfiction or fan arts those evisions are a little bit too big they hope they
overshadow basically our unity of being interested in Pacific Rim but unlike
(53:27):
with fandom culture in church our unity in Christ overshadows any differences we could possibly have
so that is the difference. Definitely that at the end of the day too the Pacific Rim community is
not going to be there right when you're having a crisis at two in the morning or when you want to
(53:55):
talk about something that's not Pacific Rim you know there might be some people in there that you
tap on some things with but when you get outside of that fandom there isn't really anybody there
and I think that that strikes me as being the most important thing because church should be a
place where we can all grow. We should not be the people we were two or three years ago if we're
(54:21):
doing church right and the reality is that we're not and I'm even thinking now as sanctuary grows
and the thing that God really kind of spoke to me about earlier in the year was to watch for
unconventional growth and that's exactly what's happened that we have people who maybe aren't really
looking to become members of a church who one in particular I'm thinking of is an atheist who will
(54:47):
stick around in our Bible studies and listen to us talk. Yep. And we'll come to spend that and
entertain our conversations about church while they're around. Mm-hmm.
Because they need the fellowship in the community and part of them knows that.
I'm thinking of somebody else who told me just yesterday and I'm not going to say who it is but
(55:10):
told me how much they're really liking church. Nice. And I was really surprised at that because I'm
not going to lie to you all this was somebody I did not see ever coming to church. And then one day
all by themselves are you going church tomorrow yet can I come? And it just kind of happened. And
(55:33):
is it somebody who is at a different place in their faith than we are? Mm-hmm. And so we've got all
these different people starting to come along and starting to be with us whether it's people who
drop in on occasion which we have somebody who does that. And we've got some who come and visit and
(55:56):
stick around. We've got other people who are really making the commitment to be there every week.
There's so many different dimensions if you will to what community looks like. And we as a church
have to be open enough and honest enough and ready and willing to receive people in their
(56:18):
different places so that we can all figure this out together as we kind of go along. And that is
something you will not get in community anywhere else. Mm-hmm.
Well this actually was a really fast hour. They're not bad for two people who are
(56:39):
volant told to do a topic and we didn't know where to start.
Volant told had no idea what we were going to talk about and who are tired. So I mean that's
pretty amazing. Well you know the drill. I typically turn over the episode to my guest for a final
thought. And so what is something on this particular topic that you would like to leave our listeners with?
(57:02):
That community is more than just introducing yourself to somebody at church. I mean it starts like
that. It starts with stepping out of your comfort zone. Maybe doing the whole turn to your neighbor
saying but it's consistency that makes community. And as hard as difficult as it is,
(57:27):
consistency ultimately pays off. And the discomfort that you feel in the beginning, the
awkwardness of feeling the beginning, well I'll be worth it when you have a found family that shares your
faith in Christ. Amen to that. Well I thank you for being on here and you know you're going to be
(57:54):
back. We've got to get ready for season seven. And also you're going to jump back on here next
Thursday to record with Nick. So we'll have to think of a topic to volunteer then for.
And how can everybody get in contact with you if they would like? Yeah so you can I have a contact
form through my website that is beloved-not-broken.com. The heading is questions but you know you can also
(58:24):
just send me a message there. It doesn't have to be a question. And yeah if you're on Tumblr I am
also on Tumblr. Beloved-not-broken. And you can find me and DM me there.
All right that sounds great. Well I thank you for being on today and I thank all of you guys for
(58:46):
listening. And let's start out with some resources that might actually really be a blessing to you.
I'm going to recommend my book, Ministry School Basic Training, be all that you can be in
Gods Army, a guide for lay members. That's Ministry School Basic Training, a guide for lay
membership. And I encourage you to go check that book out because it is specifically what it says.
(59:11):
It's basically an introduction to participation in church and church membership. And so it's not
your average, hey I got saved book what's next. It really is about integrating into community,
about beliefs, about learning more about scripture. And so go check that out today. Look me up
Dr. Lee Ann B. Marino on Amazon.com or wherever books are sold and my titles do come up.
(59:33):
There are over 37 in total actually soon to be 38. We're getting ready for another release.
And so definitely watch for that and check that out. Also if you are interested in leadership,
want to know more about it. If you're in it, if you just like to read about it,
check out my pathos column leadership on fire at patheos.com/blogs/leadership
(59:57):
on fire. That's patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire. And as I mentioned earlier, I recently released an
episode that specifically talked about six reasons why people go to church that have nothing to do with
doctrine. And so definitely go check that out and learn a little bit more about church interactions
and church relationships and community today. It's definitely worth your time and you can
(01:00:22):
subscribe to it. So definitely do that today. Also connect with me across social media @kingdompowernow
That's @KingdomPower Now. Let's start that conversation on Facebook, Twitter,
TikTok, Instagram, Blue Sky, TikTok, anywhere else that you can imagine. We are on there @kingdompowernow
Let's learn what you like, what you want to hear more of, what you'd like to see
(01:00:46):
differently. Suggestions for season seven and more. So let's connect across social media,
reach out to me today. Also, if you'd like to learn more about the world of counterculture
Christianity, feel free to visit my website at kingdompowernow.org. That's kingdompowernow.org.
If you are looking for seminary that is entirely affordable, that is donation based. That's
(01:01:07):
you can do from anywhere in the world at home. I encourage you to check out Abastolic Covenant
Theological Seminary that's ACTS for Short at Acts176.org. That's acts176.org. And if you are ready to
take that step into community and you are in the Charlotte, North Carolina area, even if you're visiting,
even if you're passing through, feel free to reach out to us at Sanctuary at WelcomeInThisPlace.org.
(01:01:33):
That's WelcomeInThisPlace.org. And if you have a question that's not answered on the website,
feel free to reach out to any one of us and we will get back to you as soon as we can. And this is
a possible Dr. Leigh Enmerino reminding you in closing that fellowship matters and where we
fellowship matters. We can't do this alone because God puts us in a body. And so our relationships with
(01:01:56):
other people are just as important as our relationship with Christ. Until next time, be blessed.
Thank you for joining us on the Kingdom Now podcast today. I pray it is proven to be a blessing in your life.
To learn more about this work, ask a question, submit feedback, advertise with us, be a guest,
(01:02:21):
or donate to support this work. As our podcast is sponsored by listeners like you,
visit my website which contains essential information, projects and works for other points of
contact around the web at kingdompowernow.org. Also, if you are in our area and would like to visit
(01:02:41):
Sanctuary interational Fellowship Tabernacle, visit WelcomeInThisPlace.org. Until next time,
this is Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you that the Kingdom of God is within you.
And that means the Kingdom is now.
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