Kingdom Talk! with Pete Mahoney

My guest on today's show is Peter Mahoney. Pete is a missionary, a bible teacher, a prophetic voice, an entrepreneur and a businessman. He and his wife, Hege, currently make their home in Norway with their three children.

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Episode Transcript

Mark Banyard (00:09):
Welcome to Kingdom talk, the podcast where we talk
all about things kingdom. I'myour host, Mark Banyard, and
I'll be interviewing a varietyof people who through their
lives and ministries have beencommitted to advancing the
kingdom of God, church planters,church leaders, pioneers of
missions and ministries both athome as well as abroad. So let's

(00:33):
go straight to today's episodeof Kingdom talk.
My guest today is Pete Mahoney,Pete and I have been friends for
some time. He is a missionary, aBible teacher, a trusted

(00:55):
prophetic voice, as well as anentrepreneur, and a businessman.
Pete is originally from theUnited States, but he and his
wife Hey, gay now live inNorway. Pete, welcome to the
show.

Pete Mahoney (01:08):
Mark, great to be with you.

Mark Banyard (01:11):
Well, thanks for making the time. I know you're
busy with many things. But I doappreciate you being a guest on
our show today. And today, we'regoing to talk about the
prophetic. Obviously, in orderfor us to talk about the
prophetic, we need to understandit biblically. And we need to
understand it historically. ButI really do want to focus on

(01:33):
where are we today with theprophetic in terms of how God's
speaking what God's speaking?
Who are the prophets today, whois speaking on behalf of God?
And I think you carry someunderstanding and insight to
that. And so that's, that's,that's what we're going to talk
about today. What is theProphetic? What is not

(01:55):
necessarily a hard definition?
But, you know, how do we tounderstand it?

Pete Mahoney (02:02):
You know, I'm from a very conservative background.
So I didn't grow up with theprophetic. I didn't grow up with
people speaking words ofknowledge to people for
encouragement and edification.
And when I encountered that, forthe first time in college, it
just blew my mind. And it openedup my world and God in a whole
different way. And it helped meexperience the love of God in a

(02:23):
different way. Not that I didn'texperience before, I absolutely
did in salvation and myunderstanding of God up to that
point. But when I encounteredthe prophetic ministry, it was
like Jesus reaching over andspeaking to me, the voice of
God. Yeah, like the reality ofGod. Now, that's what the
prophetic is. And so it'sbringing the Bible alive, like,

(02:46):
in in church history right now,not contradicting the Word of
God, never contradicting theWord of God. But making it alive
for us today, and showing us -hey, go down this road now,
like, in real time, because thisis the way that God wants to
grow you, or this is what he hasfor your family. And we need

(03:07):
that if anyone's like, I justsee this mercy like, God, thank
you so much, that you stillspeak that you're, you're not
silent, that this is actually aconversation that we're having,
you know, the prayer is not justme speaking, but that God is
actually going to respond, if Iwould take the time to listen.
And you and I were just talkingabout this. It's like,

(03:28):
oftentimes, we either don't takethe time to listen. And I make a
joke about myself that God oftenspeaks to me through dreams,
because I'm just too dull duringthe day - I'm doing, doing so
much. I'm focused on things andwhen I'm finally able to quiet
myself, because I'm dead asleep,then God will whisper me to me
in the night, and mostly for me,it's a lot of times it's dreams.
That's the prophetic for me.

(03:50):
It's like right before wakingup, I'll hear a word from the
Lord. And it's different forevery person, it's different in
seasons of life, it's differenthow God speaks. And he'll test
us in that, like, if we getcomfortable in one area, he'll
say, let's do some crosstraining, you know, you've kind
of gotten used to this way. Andwe start to define God, by the
way, that he's spoken to us inthe past, that he just won't

Mark Banyard (04:10):
The voice of God, hearing the voice of God is so
allow it.
key to, to living I believe theChristian life. And, of course,
first and foremost, it's theword of God, as God has revealed
Himself to us, and the way ofsalvation, and reconciliation

(04:32):
through through His Word, by theHoly Spirit. But then there's
the prophetic voice, which is,God now dwells within us by His
Holy Spirit and speaks to us.
And so I like your definitionbecause it means that you don't
have to find somebody outside ofyourself, necessarily to hear

(04:55):
God's voice. You know, you thinkof those people who go to a
fortune teller because the onlyway they can figure out where
they're supposed to go or whatthey're supposed to do is
through somebody else. But thatbrings me to the whole issue of
the future, it seems to me likea lot of the prophetic or at
least what people think of theprophetic is is talking about

(05:17):
the predicting the future, orbeing very direct, have a
directive voice that says, youneed to do this, and you need to
do that. And you need to walk inthis and you need to walk in
that. I think that hearing thevoice of God, in terms of
knowing God's love, His favor,is the relationship that we have

(05:39):
with God is is is key tounderstanding the nature, the
nature of the prophetic.

Pete Mahoney (05:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think there's nothingwrong with and as you were
talking about, there's nothingwrong with are there prophetic
voices out there who arespeaking to the future? Can God
speak about the future? Yes,obviously, he can. He has
throughout Scripture. Does Godspeak about national issues?
Yes, he can. He has throughoutScripture. We have an Old
Testament view of prophecy, whenwe're in the New Testament now,

(06:12):
doesn't mean that God isn'tgoing to speak in the ways that
he spoke to Old Testamentprophets. But there are no
national prophets in the sameway that there was for Israel,
as we had today. Today, we haveprophecies that are tested by
other prophets that are testedby other Christians just to
weigh them out. There wasnothing like that in the Old
Testament. So it's, it's notjust a thus saith the LORD, it's

(06:34):
okay, you can say that, but thenit's to be tested, it's to be
weighed, where it wasn't before.
So it's it's a different type ofthing. And I think sometimes in
charismatic circles we be, wemake it out, like we have Old
Testament prophets. We do nothave Old Testament prophets.
Again, that doesn't mean thatpeople can't speak to the
future, that God doesn't ever dothat he does. But I think if you

(06:59):
look at the definition and therevelation of God, in Ephesians,
chapter four, and what theprophetic is about, it is not
about that. God can use thosethings. But it's not about that.
It's not about the overarchingissues of governance, and
governments and all of that;that can be useful to God's
people at certain points, and hewill warn us of things so we can

(07:21):
prepare our families, etc. Butif you look at Ephesians,
chapter four, it's talking aboutapostles, prophets, evangelists,
pastors, teachers, what? Tobuild up the body, for unity,
for maturity, and for theknowledge of God's Son. That's
what it's about. That's what theprophetic is supposed to be

(07:41):
about. So sometimes it dependson again, what camp you're from.
I'm from very conservative. So Ihad to come into it like willy
nilly, not knowing what theprophetic was about. Some people
were raised more like maybe theywere born straight into the
Toronto Blessing or they're fromKansas City, they have a
different view of it. Like whereit's people standing on the
platform and declaring thingslike, "This is your name. And

(08:04):
this is where you're from, andthis is what's happening." And
that's the prophetic, too. Butit doesn't always work that way.
And there's times in the seasonswhere God does certain things.
And I think, depending on whatmovement we're in, we can get
hung up on the way in which Godis going or not going to
communicate a certain thing.
When we miss the purpose, thisis my Well, this I don't think

(08:24):
it's my opinion, because I thinkthis is what it's saying in
Ephesians chapter four, thatit's about the knowledge of
God's Son. Scripture say thatall of the riches of wisdom and
knowledge are hidden in Christ.
Amen. Oh, for looking for gold.
That's where it is. It's notfound in all of these other
peripherals. Now God loves usand he's gonna give us kisses.

(08:47):
He's gonna give us money when weneed it. He's gonna give us
everything that we need. And Godloves to do that.

Mark Banyard (08:53):
Even a rebuke occasionally.

Pete Mahoney (08:55):
Oh, absolutely.
Because he loves us. I was aboutto say that it's like secondary,
that with all of those things,or I think we focus on the
blessing, which is awesome.
Like, I'm totally for blessing.
But secondarily, the firstblessing is to know Christ. That
is the first blessing and he isan endless gift. You open up
that present, you look at it,there's no bottom. I believe
that's the revelation that Godwants to bring to the prophetic

(09:17):
today. He's all about his Son,the Holy Spirit is all about the
Son. And they're pointing to himsaying, "Church, look at the Son
again, don't look at, it's notabout you and your calling and
all that - that's allsecondary." And if we will focus
on the Son, those things willcome into right alignment, and
we won't be worried about thosethings as much.

Mark Banyard (09:40):
That's right. I feel that and again, we kind of
talked about this before theshow today, that there is a
restoration of the propheticthat's going on. I certainly
felt that was one of the wordstalking about the voice of God
that I felt that I received fromthe Lord at the end of 2022 for

(10:01):
2023. Of course, if there'sgoing to be a restoration, it
means there has been some decayor degradation or distraction or
something. And so he's bringingus back into alignment with a
correct understanding of theprophetic. And you already
mentioned an Old Testamentunderstanding as well as now

(10:25):
talking about the focus beingJesus. So a couple of scripture
verses for our listeners thatmight just again frame this:
Amos three, verse seven says,surely the Sovereign Lord does
nothing without revealing hispresent plan to his servants the
prophets. And so that's the OldTestament. That's, that's true,

(10:46):
it was true. And in perhaps in asense, today, it's still true.
However, Hebrews chapter one,verses one and two says this. In
the past, God spoke to ourancestors through the prophets
at many times and in variousways. But in these last days, he
has spoken to us by his Son whomhe appointed heir of all things,

(11:09):
and through whom also he madethe universe. So to your point,
here, here we have OldTestament, which we need to
understand how God worked andhow he spoke through his
prophets. And But now, we're inan under a new covenant. And in
that sense, New Testament wherethe focus is on Christ in us.

Pete Mahoney (11:33):
Absolutely. And you look at Revelation 910, or
1910, the Spirit of Prophecy isthe testimony of Jesus. You
know, so it's all pointing backto him. And I think to your
point of restoration, I waslistening to Mike Bickle, I
think it was yesterday. And hetalks about how often it
personalities, you know, when wehave personalities in the

(11:55):
prophetic, and you you have tohave the fear of the Lord.
Because if you get on a rollwith the prophetic, you can add
on things he calls it, HamburgerHelper, meaning those things
that aren't necessarily from theLord, but you're so excited. And
I think part of the restorationof the prophetic is having a
fear of the Lord to not speakbeyond the bounds of what you
know, or you feel that the Lordis speaking to you. Because

(12:18):
we're, we're always relayingthese words with humility,
knowing that we hear in partthat we see in part, and we have
to, I believe a New Testamentprophet is to deliver it in that
way. And in that spirit, nothesitantly, I'm not saying
hesitantly or with unbelief, butwith the humility knowing that
it should be weighed, and itshouldn't be tested by those

(12:38):
that here, and also that thosewho teach and I believe those
that prophesy will be heldaccount for what they teach and
what they prophesied. And so youcannot have any manipulation in
it. And that's where the, Ibelieve in these coming days,
the Lord is not going to put upwith the manipulation. And I

(12:59):
think those of you who havemoved and prophetic circles and
charismatic circles know whatI'm talking about. It's very
easy for people and leaders toslip into. I'm not saying
they're always doing an onpurpose, manipulation through
the prophetic. And when you get,and especially when you get
really accurate words, peoplereally kind of make you into a
celebrity. And there's a powerassociated with that, that

(13:22):
usually doesn't go right. So Ihope that this next generation
that the Lord is raising up andpeople that need to be corrected
by the Lord Himself that arealready in prophetic ministry.
This is not about us at all.
It's not about us. It's notabout our ministry. It's not an
I know it sounds super holy andreligious, or whatever it isn't.
It isn't just a waste of time.

(13:44):
It's it's very important to toresurrect, so to speak, the
prophetic within the localchurch, where people are then
challenged. That's the wholeidea is that we're supposed to
be training them to do the worksof the ministry. So they're
going to be hearing from theLord. And we're going to be
teaching each other Paul talksabout you need to be teaching
each other. And so it's not justthis top down, okay, here's the

(14:08):
Prophet. And of course, Godraises up people with special
prophetic giftings that arelike, wow, you know, those
prophetic voices throughouthistory that you're like, that's
really crazy accurate, andthey're in the meeting and like,
boom, boom, boom. And there'ssomething special about that,
and exciting about that, and Goduses that. But that's, that's a
small percentage of theprophetic that God is using

(14:31):
throughout the world. And Ithink most of it or I think most
of it should be at that localchurch level. And I think now
with social media andeverything, everybody's excited
about the next prophetic word,and this and that, and during
the pandemic, it seemed likethere was a lot of clunker
prophetic, a lot of things thatjust weren't coming to pass. And
it it brings shame on the nameof the Lord. And I know people

(14:53):
aren't trying to do that. Butthere needs to be
accountability. Like if you getit wrong, you need to come back
and say I got it wrong. We'll bePublic Ministry that you're
saying, this is the word of theLord and that it doesn't come to
pass. I think there needs to beat least a conversation and
Humility is saying, I don't knowhow I missed it, but I missed
it. And or maybe God has anotherway. Maybe it's a different

(15:14):
interpretation, but at least totalk about it, and not just move
on,

Mark Banyard (15:18):
Sweep it under the carpet.

Pete Mahoney (15:20):
Right. And that's part of the restoration, like,
can't allow, if you get itwrong, and you know, you did you
just need to say, I got itwrong. And it may be it's a
repentance issue. And maybe it'sjust you just got it, you just
missed it.

Mark Banyard (15:37):
Well, I think that if humility is in place, I mean,
if it's real in the individual,then saying, I got it wrong is
an easy thing. So it comes backto the whole issue of humility,
you know, are and Do youunderstand that the gift, the
prophetic gift actually belongsto Jesus and not to you, even
though you steward it, and youhave to end up being responsible

(15:58):
for it. But I want to just talkabout the critique of the
prophetic because often, there'sa pendulum swing. It's either
it's all about the prophetic,and there's all these prophetic
ministries. And and then when itseems like as you say, real
clunkers and the bottom dropsout, and certain people don't

(16:19):
get elected after they've beenprophesied that they're going to
be elected and so on. Thependulum swings, particularly in
the church, probably more in thechurch than in the world. And so
the critique goes to the otherside, where it's, we don't want
the prophetic you can't trustthe prophetic, there's no way of
discerning what's right orwhat's wrong, and in the few

(16:43):
people who seem to have thesepowerful gifts or are not really
accountable to anybody andthey're uncontrollable. And so
we're just going to not, it'seasier not to have that in our
church. But I think therestoration that God is speaking
about is, is him speaking valueto the prophetic gift that He's

(17:04):
given to the church?

Pete Mahoney (17:07):
Yeah, I think you're exactly right. And and
you know, Mark, I'll just behonest with you, I'm one of the
ones that gets in that mode,when just like, oh, so flaky,
everything's so flaky and weird.
And I'm just tired of the weirdprophetic stuff. But I have to
go back to the scriptures andsay, what, what is the true
prophetic? What does God wantand go back to my own
testimonies of how much God hasbroken through in my own life?

(17:30):
Right? Strangers speaking theWord of God to me, friends. You
know, whoever it is, it's, it'shuge to be able to get that
confirmation of things. You'vebeen praying about you. You're
praying in your prayer room, andthen your friend calls and says,
Hey, I really, I was on my heartthat, that, you know, you needed

(17:50):
healing in this area, or andit's exactly what you were just
praying about. Does that bolsteryour faith? Yeah, obviously, it
does. No kidding. Is that God?
Yes. Do we need it? Absolutely.
Again, going back to the point,it's mercy, and to then say,
well, because there was sin onthe worship team, let's just get
rid of worship. No, we don't dothat, do we? Because no, that

(18:11):
would be silly. So we can't dothat. That with the prophetic
either. We can't say there wassome conquerors there's some
weird flaky people. There's, youknow, it makes us feel weird,
because we don't want to beassociated with all that stuff.
So we're just going to like,push it off to the side and
despise prophecy. No, that's,that's the opposite of the Word
of God. So it's the same thingwith healing and everything
else. Like, I've prayed forpeople, they don't get healed.

(18:33):
Am I hugely disappointed? Yes.
That's where the seed ofunbelief comes in, is in
disappointment. And it's human.
It's natural. And it's somethingthat God's actually been
confronting me on this week, isyou allow disappointment to get
in and then the unbelief getsit. And when the unbelief gets
in, yeah, it's hard to it's hardto have faith for those things

(18:56):
that you once had faith for, tolive in faith, for healing for
the prophetic for, you know, tobelieve for your family,
whatever it is, it doesn't haveto be something super like
charismatic. Just like normalChristianity, you get jaded and
you feel like well, there's readmy Bible and pray and like, do
the next thing and you justdon't have any expectation.

Mark Banyard (19:16):
Right? Right.
Right. And that anddisappointment is leads to that.
Disappointment also comes fromwrong expectations. When we
believe that God can do theimpossible in our lives, but
then we put over it a templateor we put a layer of our
expectations of he's going to doit on a Wednesday. He's going to

(19:38):
do it at 10:59 He's going to doit with a brand new car and he's
going to do it with this andthat the other thing and when he
doesn't fulfill it and the waywe think we end up with
disappointment, thendisappointment opens up the
door. And unbelief ushers in.

Pete Mahoney (19:57):
Yeah, Lord, Lord, I'll do anything. I'll do your
will, but do it this way. No,that's that's I think I will
definitely say that's me on someoccasions for sure.

Mark Banyard (20:07):
So let's talk a bit more about the prophetic in
the church. It seems to me thatthere are a lot of ministries,
prophetic ministries that haveestablished themselves outside
of the church. Now, that'sthat's to be argued, I mean,
people could say, I go to achurch, the pastor knows me, the
board has released me, and so onand so forth. But the more and I

(20:33):
do believe there are there aredifferent spheres of the
prophetic in the sense of aninternational platform, which,
which is the privilege of God ona person's life. People are
called to that to be aninternational voice in the
national voice, and so on and soforth. But there's a tendency, I

(20:54):
think, out there to think of theprophetic as something that's a
resident primarily outside ofthe church, in that it functions
that way in speaks kind of overand above the church in the
destiny and purpose, the kingdomdestiny and purpose of God
that's on the church. And soI've noticed you probably have

(21:19):
too particularly as an example,that during this last two, three
years of pandemic, that there,there oddly seems to be more
online, internet based socialmedia based, niche market,
prophetic ministries that havebeen launched. It's a bit like

(21:39):
all the churches now that dolive streaming, right? Like, I
mean, how many churches can youattend on Sunday night, Sunday,
I guess as many as there are inthe internet, and how many
screens you have and how goodyour internet bandwidth is. But
I am concerned about the amountof voices that are out there
now, just because the technologyallows people to get on the

(22:04):
internet and say whatever theywant to say and and get it out
there. I doesn't add up. I don'tactually, you as I said, you can
watch all that or listen to allof that. And it doesn't mean
that it's all wrong, or or it'sall bad. In fact, some of that

(22:24):
stuff is real God stuff. Yep.
But I think the problem is, andI'm asking you to, you know, to
speak into this is that I thinkthe problem is, is that is
there, there's this notion, kindof underneath of all of this,
that the prophetic is this freefloating ministry that can kind
of pop up anywhere it wants to.

(22:47):
And it's not necessarily clearlyin relationship with the, with
the church, the Body of Christ.

Pete Mahoney (22:54):
Yeah, leadership within the church is supposed to
be about safety, and kindnessand direction and shepherding.
And unfortunately, people havehad bad experiences with that.
And I think especially propheticpeople tend to be more, you
know, I don't know if this istrue, more, more free spirited

(23:15):
or more that way, and so theytend to buck a little bit
against that, and perhaps that'snatural to them, or whatever,
but, and then we've had, maybethey've had bad experiences with
controlling pastors, etc, etc.
But again, it goes back to thewhole thing, just because you
have a bad experience does notmean that that's the way in

(23:35):
which God made things. So in ahealthy body of Christ, you're
going to have good leadership,that loves the people, that's
releasing that's notcontrolling, that wants to see
God use each individual and themas a body. And I think, a really
healthy place for that propheticperson would be in a local

(23:57):
church because there the mainthing that they can do there is
their job, which is to equip thesaints for the work of the
ministry that is their theirrole within the body of Christ.
Now certainly it's not just thelocal church, it's it's trans
local church as you say, it'sit's worldwide it can be
depending on the ministry thatthe person has, but you're gonna
have so much more I believesatisfaction and wholeness in

(24:20):
the Lord in your ministry,being sent out, being
commissioned by a people thathave surrounded you that love
you, that support you, but alsocan correct you, which is really
needed, that you're notindependent. And if it's about
unity, which again, is goingback to the Ephesians chapter
four, if it's about unity andmaturity, that you aren't

(24:41):
unified, and no one's trackingyour maturity because that's the
role of a pastor right as wellis to shepherd and bring up in
maturity. You're not out ofthat. You know, we're all
maturing. We're not we haven'treached into the head yet,
right. We've, we, we see in In aglass dimly still, so humility
says we all still need to grow,even the greatest prophetic

(25:04):
person, if they really wereprophetic, they would know they
need to grow. Because they wouldbe meeting with the Lord. And
anytime you meet with the Lord,you know that you need to grow.
Because you're you, you havethat sense of holiness and fear
the Lord like, gosh, I can'tbelieve I even get to be around
God, I can't believe that Godspeaks to me, like he really
shouldn't be. Because I'm, I'mkind of a dork and why is he

(25:25):
speaking to me? I think thatthat's sort of the, you know,
not in a self defeating way. Butto say I need help, I need to be
in a family, I need to be in acommunity is the best way. And
there's going to be serving thiswonderful group of people. Or
maybe they're, you know, they'reall really difficult people.
That's true in the church, too.

(25:46):
But they're going to be helpedby having that prophetic voice
within that community, and thatvoice is going to be helped by
them.

Mark Banyard (25:53):
So let's talk about healthy churches and what
a healthy prophetic ministrymight look like.

Pete Mahoney (26:01):
Yeah, I think that the starting place is to have a
central focus on Well,obviously, first commandment, I
think, first commandment firstof people that know that our
job, firstly is not to dosomething for the Lord, but just
to love him to honor Him to befocused on Him and that our life

(26:24):
is about him. Right? To Love theLord your God with your whole
heart, soul, mind and strengthlike that. That's the main
thing. And that it really is,and that we're constantly
challenging each other to say,like, first commandment first,
like, let's get back to thebasics. Let's never give that
up. Because if we get if we everget past that, what's the point?
We've lost it, we've justcompletely lost it. But that's

(26:47):
the anchor. The absolutely thefoundation of everything is
Christ. And if you build onanything else, then the whole
thing just collapses. And thatwas Paul's whole message. Like,
you can't build on anything butthis foundation, this is it,
right? You got to do this orit's, it's gonna burn down and
it's not going to be good. And,and Christ himself saying that,
you know, you can either buildon the sand or you can build on

(27:07):
a rock, your choice, but one isgoing to turn out great and
one's not. And if the church isbuilt on Christ, who is of
course, the foundation, he's thehe's the cornerstone, and he's
the capstone of the whole deal,then that's going to be a safe
place where you're gonna like,Okay, we're on the right track,
at least, you know, we're goingto screw up, we're going to have
weak faith. But Jesus says, Hey,if you just have the faith of a

(27:29):
mustard seed, I love that.
Awesome, God, I'm glad thatyou're saying that. Because I
feel like my faith is very mucha little like a mustard seed,
but you're accepting me. So it'shaving a vibe like that within
the church, while also saying,hey, we need to know the
Scriptures. We need to beanchored in the scriptures
together. So that church isgoing to be teaching the Bible,

(27:50):
not necessarily expository everyweek or something, depending on
the group, but or that we can'tdo themes, and it has to be
straight through the Bible. I'mnot saying that, although that's
a good thing. I think I think weneed more expository teaching,
especially those of us who aremore in charismatic circles, I
think we really need expositoryteaching. Because what it does

(28:11):
is it forces us to teach all ofthe Bible, we like to skip
parts. And expository teaching,we have to like, we're gonna go
through Colossians, you know,we're gonna go through the whole
thing, every verse, that'sreally helpful. I'm not saying
that's the only way that you'resupposed to teach. But that
helps challenge the teachers, ithelps challenge the congregation
to say what does the word of Godreally say? And then the

(28:32):
prophetic and all these otherthings can be anchored to not
our knowledge, necessarily ofScripture, but the overarching
message of the Bible. We knowit. It's hidden in our heart,
because we memorize Scriptureeven. And then how are we going
to know if it's God speaking tous if we don't know the word of
God, right? How do we test it?

(28:55):
How do we, if the prophetic issupposed to be tested, which it
says it is in the Scripture? Howwould you know to test it if you
don't know the Scripture? So Iknow this is all basic. But I've
found many times people don'tknow, they don't know the
Scripture. So they they getprophetic words, and it's just
like, it's crazy stuff. And it'snot good. Like, you need to just

(29:18):
drop that thing and like runaway from it. But you wouldn't
know that because you don't knowwhat the word of God says on on
those topics or subjects or whoJesus is or getting mixture, you
know, about Christ not being theonly way or, you know, different
things about sexual ethics. Andthe people just don't know
anymore. They don't know whatGod says about things and why

(29:41):
marriage is the way that Godwants it and you know, gender
things and all these things thatare popping up in the world.
Now. We don't know the answersto them because we haven't been
studying the Scripture. Sothat's where I feel like there's
that anchor there for theprophetic because if you don't,
if you don't know theScriptures, it's not exciting,
either. If God speaks to ussomething, he's going to be

(30:02):
speaking it from his heart andhis heart is all over the
scriptures. Like, all over. Wehave the written word of God, we
have the living Word of God inChrist, where we have both of
those accessible to us. And itgets exciting when God speaks
something to your heart thatyou're like, oh, that's, that's
Bible, like that feels right. Tome that feels like I'm on the

(30:24):
right path. And you wouldn'tknow that thing that popped into
your head is a Bible verseunless you knew that Bible
verse. I'm not saying that Godcan't do a miracle, but he's
digging out of things that arein us most of the time. And if
we don't have those things inus, those things are not
accessible in the same way thatthey would be. And so having a
church that's like, we're notgoing that direction, if the

(30:47):
Word of God is opposed to it.
And it's not about sinmanagement, and what what can we
do and what can't we do. Andthat's not the focus, but those
things certainly are important.
Secondarily, because we loveGod, we love Jesus, we want to
serve Him, we believe that he'ssmart, and he knows exactly what
would be best for us. And so,and we're not, we don't think

(31:09):
that we know better than Jesusabout how to live our lives, and
how to raise our families andall of that, like, we believe
that we should really look intothat. It's like, I think if you
have Christians who are youknow, you even have a Christian
who's a doctor, like they'vestudied for years for the
profession, but they don't studythe Word of God, which is far
more important than those thingsthat they studied in school. And

(31:30):
I'm not like heapingcondemnation on that person. But
just to say that the scripturesare the most important thing
that we can read. And we canknow. And this is what I'm
trying to teach my children,what you've taught your
children. Like, it's not just abook. It's, it's a revelation.
It's a revealing, it's anunveiling of a person who is

(31:50):
Jesus to us. First hidden as amystery, by a seed of Abraham
all the way to us. And that, ifyou didn't know what that means,
because you haven't read yourBible, you don't know why I'm so
excited to even bring up thatseed from Abraham. That was
deposited as a gonna be a hugerevelation to all humanity. It's

(32:10):
not just for the Jews, but thisMessiah, this king, he's gonna
be for everybody. He's gonnasave everyone. And, yeah, so
it's that sort of thing, like,first commandment first work
centered on the Scriptures. Andthen we have a community that
believes that God is wanting tobuild up his people that it's
not, it's not the CEO pastormentality where the pastor is

(32:32):
going to do everything. Andeverybody's just looking to Him
to do everything, or to theelders to do everything. But
they're there to serve thecongregation, to train and the
congregation will actually bethe ones who are doing the
majority of the ministry. It'svery, very rare. It's very rare.
I've only seen it in a fewplaces. But is that not the
biblical model that God wants? Ibelieve, so.

Mark Banyard (32:53):
I couldn't agree more. It's almost turning the
church inside out and backwardsto align it with a biblical
picture.

Pete Mahoney (33:03):
That's right. And I, you know, you hate to say
things like this, but it's not.
There's certain things that arelike are biblical, they're like
not they're not not biblical,but they're not in the Bible,
either. They're not they're notbad. There's things that we have
that aren't even in theScripture, like there is no such
thing as a senior pastor, theway that we understand senior
pastor does not exist. And I'mnot against senior pastors, and

(33:25):
there could be a place for thatwithin them. And, and especially
in the context of some peoplehave are in full time ministry,
they get paid actually to studythe Word of God. And that is
biblical, to set yourself asideto study the Word of God and to
prayer. So I'm not againstsenior pastor, but just to say
that the mentality of the seniorpastor in the States, especially

(33:47):
who is the CEO, who is in chargeof everything, all of those
things, that is not biblical,it's not good for the
congregation. It's not good forthe pastor. And there has to be
a shared leadership, there wasnot a single church that Paul
planted that didn't havemultiple leaders, it was elders,
plural. And there's a reason forthat. And I think those that are

(34:09):
in a situation where they haveto lead the whole thing
themselves are really robbingthemselves and the people and
I'm not blaming them for that.
I'm just saying that there is Ithink there is a better way.

Mark Banyard (34:22):
Yes, I couldn't agree more, I think to that. So
let's just, let's just reviewhere. So a healthy a healthy
church is a church that isreading their Bibles, they're
preaching, preaching the Word,both Old Testament and New
Testament with an understandingof the day that we live in

(34:43):
rather than yesterday that thatwe don't live in, might be
trying to live in. We need tolive in a New Covenant
understanding. And then on topof that, we need to have
leadership that have a five foldperspective that the gifts that

(35:03):
they've been given is actuallyfor the sake of raising up the
body. And so, in in thatcontext, let's talk a little bit
about what the differences arebetween a people that are
prophetic and people who areprophets. Today.

Pete Mahoney (35:23):
The titles, the titles, I feel like I get hung
up on I think people get hung upon them like whether that be
apostle or prophet. And we canwe can have a discussion about
what what does the New Testamentmean by Apostle? Did they mean
capital A apostle? Do they meansmall a apostle too, you know,
is there is a difference betweenOld Testament prophets and new
testament prophets. So there's alot of nuances there. And I

(35:45):
think those of us from anevangelical background, we want
to check out those other thingsand say, We don't know what that
means. So let's just push it offto the side, we understand
evangelists, teacher and pastor.
For those other roles were like,I think roll roll is really what
we need to focus on, not title.
And I'm not saying you're sayinganything about title. But it's
been helpful for me in myunderstanding, to not focus on

(36:08):
the title that we would givesomeone but the role in which
they have within the church thatis recognized by the body
without there needing even to bea title.

Mark Banyard (36:16):
So we're really talking about callings,
anointings and giftings thatrecognize, are recognized by the
body of Christ.

Pete Mahoney (36:24):
Yeah, they see it because it's activated, and it's
moving. And I think those youknow, you know, an evangelist
when you meet one, right,because they're, they're always
talking about

Mark Banyard (36:35):
You want to get everybody saved all the time!

Pete Mahoney (36:37):
Absolutely. And that's their job. That's God has
put that on their heart, they'reburning for that. And you're
gonna have the person that maybewill, let's say, functionally
functions in the prophetic as inthe role of a prophet in that
way, is going to be used tobring right alignment to the
church, meaning what is God?
What is God saying, in thishour? And how are we out of
alignment with God's purposesand God's design? And how do we

(37:00):
come back to his purposes? So Ibelieve that again, I'm hesitant
to use the title Prophet,because that gets into some
things. But let's just say thosethat are gifted in the prophetic
in that way, they are not onlygoing to be giving because the
gift of prophecy, I believe isfor you know, edification,
comfort, strengthening, andthat's going to be a more wide

(37:22):
gift within the body of Christ,where everybody, I believe that
I believe it's God's desire. AndPaul says this, that everybody
would, you know, move in theprophetic, and you should desire
the greater gifts, especiallyprophecy. So there's something
there, you know, there'ssomething there that God wants
to bring and something that'simportant for the whole body.
But I do think and I don't know,there's not a lot of talk in the

(37:44):
New Testament about what it whatthe role of a prophet is in the
New Testament. But I would seeit as again, right alignment,
what's on God's heart, theprophets all about what God
thinks and what God wants. Andrealigning. saying, Okay, we're
off here, we need to go back towhat God said or what God is
doing. It's not up and and ifit's done, right, the prophet

(38:09):
does not bring focus on him orherself. But on what the Lord is
saying and doing. And they'realmost like they're in the
shadow, you know, they come outwhen when Lord needs to speak
something, which is to be testedby other leaders in the body and
other people who have propheticgiftings. And, yeah, so I don't

(38:30):
know if that answered thequestion. But I feel like that's
maybe the differences. That oneis a little more it can bring
correction. I believe that Godstill uses the prophetic for
correction. But I think thatthat's not the same as the it is
prophetic. But it's not the giftof prophecy as in the

(38:51):
edification, comfort, but butcorrection is edification I bet
can be it can be that. Soanyways, I don't know if that's
a good way of speaking about it.
But that's how that's my currentunderstanding of, of what the
role would be as far as if it'swe're talking five fold, what
would the role of a prophet be?
It would be to bring rightalignment? That was what I would

(39:15):
say.

Mark Banyard (39:17):
If it was a simple thing, then it would be easy to
answer, but we tend tooversimplify things that are
difficult to explain, at leastthe way that I understand what
you've just said, the role ofthe Prophet today in the church
is not an Old Testament pictureanymore. No, it is a prophetic

(39:43):
voice. That is the gift ofJesus. It's the ministry of
Jesus that is given to thechurch and through individuals
in the church. I think, to somedegree, I think we've already
established that everybody whohas the Spirit of God can hear
the voice of God and thereforeGod can speak to them. And if

(40:03):
God's if they're listening, andGod says, No, speak this word to
somebody else or to the church,then they are moving
prophetically in a sense. So, soback to the question. So are
there are there prophets today?

Pete Mahoney (40:17):
Absolutely. And I think that if you were to pin me
down and say, Oh, are thereprophets today? Yes, there are,
I think there are because theBible says so and yay,

Mark Banyard (40:27):
all right, we finally agreed on something!

Pete Mahoney (40:30):
You can interpret, obviously, Ephesians four in
many ways and say, okay, thefoundation was the apostles and
prophets, meaning those guysback then. But I do believe it
is those guys back then. But Ithink it is more than that.
There could be some theologicalrate of wranglings of what
exactly all of that means? But Ithink definitely, I mean, and

(40:50):
there are people that are giftedin special ways, and some people
call them seers. I don't know ifthat's a biblical term or not, I
haven't really looked into it.
But I understand what they meanby a seer. It's those that God
uses in a very special way. Orhe takes them into dreams and
visions and visitations from theLord that most people just do
not have. And it's nothing thatthey earn. It's nothing that
many of them ask for. And it'ssomething that they've had since

(41:14):
they were a kid, it's a giftingand a calling of God. Some of
them have used it well, and someof them have burned out and
gotten into sin, because it's alot of revelation and power
there. Right? So is that persona prophet? I'd say, yeah, they
are. That doesn't mean that theguy at the local church isn't
either. But again, I personally,and maybe this is a cop out. If

(41:35):
someone calls me a Prophet, I'mlike, Okay, fine, like, okay,
maybe I don't know. But I wouldnever call myself one. I do feel
like I move in the prophetic,just speaking personally. And I,
I bring things to rightalignment as the Lord directs me
to do so. And I encourage peopleto move in the prophetic. So
maybe that does that make me aprophet? I don't I don't know. I

(41:58):
don't know how you woulddetermine that I think it's more
about the gifting and calling itjust do it. Whatever it is, just
do it. I think we need to stopworrying about - and I'm not
saying that you're saying that,worrying about titles. But that
let's just do it. And I thinkthat those things are recognized
by the congregation, thosethings are recognized by the

(42:18):
people of God, who say, Yes, Irecognize the function of God, I
recognize the gifting of God,and they're able to honor that
person in a proper way, not in alike I'm bowing down to you sort
of situation, because they'rejust like everybody else. And
it's actually I wouldn't wishthat upon myself unless the Lord

(42:38):
forced me to do it. The massiveresponsibility it would be to
speak a word of the Lord. It's avery different accountability
level. If the Lord appearsbefore you and speaks to you,
then if you're kind of have aprophetic moment, you know, in
your mind, I believe there's ahigher accountability, right?

Mark Banyard (42:57):
Well, I'm going to be intentionally provocative
here and and say, if, if all youcould think of being a teacher
is like being given a stick, andbeing a prophet is by being
given a loaded gun? Don't youthink that you would be more
concerned about the person withthe loaded gun than the person

(43:19):
with the stick? So coming backto the whole issue of
accountability in the propheticthere, you know, you're
prophetic, I'm prophetic. Youknow, other people get to decide
that but over time, we have someexperience of this and history

(43:42):
of this and witness to this andthe body of Christ. So we know
how dangerous the prophetic canbe. Because people are reckless,
maybe unintentionally, orthey're too casual about it, or
they've they've gotten the wordfrom the Lord but but haven't
been released to say it, butthey said it anyway. And I'm

(44:05):
still thinking about healthychurches and healthy prophetic
ministries, is saying, in orderif there's going to be a
restoration of the prophetic,surely, there needs to be a
restoration in leaders.

Pete Mahoney (44:17):
I think you're right, in that what you said
about the stick and the loadedgun, right. And oftentimes
young, especially young people,because they need to be raised
up in the Lord, like all of usneed to be raised up in the Lord
are continuing to be that peopleget shoved onto a stage way too
early. People in worshipministry it's the same thing.

(44:37):
Like it's not just playing aninstrument, you are before the
Lord and you're leading peopleinto worship. There needs to be
a high level of holiness, ofcourse in all of our lives, but
if you're if you're a worshipleader, you need to - it's
demanded of you that there'saccountability in your life
because you're leading peopleinto the throneroom of God in

(44:59):
worship. How much more would theprophetic gifting where it can
be used for manipulation foryour own purposes, for glory to
you, that you as a 20-something,you know, are using that
gifting, and it just gets weird.
And there's no one there toguide you and shepherd you, not
to shut you down. But again,those that are worried about

(45:19):
being shut down, I often find,yeah, aren't really interested
in growth. I'm not saying thatas a universal principle. But
people that complain, I'm beingshut down all the time. Like, if
it's the word of the Lord, itwon't ever get shut down,
eventually, it will come out andit will bear fruit. Even if the
leader shuts it down. That's theleader that God has appointed

(45:40):
over you. So there's a time anda place and you that word will
come forth, if it is the word ofthe Lord, and you need to be
patient. But that's hard. Andyou have to learn that over time
that even if people put theirfoot in the door that was
supposed to be opened orwhatever was happening. If God
wants something, he's gonna getto that destination, I have
stories in my life that I tellfor fun, because it's there's no

(46:03):
way that anybody believe how ithappened, that was appointed to
be at a certain place at acertain time. Everything
happened to say, No, you're notgoing to do that. And then I
ended up there anyways, throughrandom circumstances and dreams.
You ended up in the exact spot.
Love those moments. Yeah, soit's like, but you don't know
that when you're younger in thefaith, or you're you're younger,

(46:25):
in ministry. And I, you know, Idon't believe that I have this
huge experience in ministry, butI have what experience I do
have, you have to learn that youdon't have to push it. You don't
have to push it forward. If it'sGod, you can wait. Because if it
is the Holy Spirit, and the HolySpirit is hot, let's say on a

(46:46):
meeting, and you just want toclose that thing out, and you're
getting in the flesh, and you'regoing to do that thing when God
that's not what God wants. Godwants to rest on the people,
he's going to do a work, andmaybe it's going to happen
tomorrow. And maybe it is goingto happen right now. Maybe that
is the Lord. But sometimes theflesh comes in and we want to
sort of speak close the deal ina moment, whether that be

(47:07):
evangelistically, whether thatbe prophetically or as you said,
we hear something from the Lord.
And we're just excited, and wewant to say it. But it's not
always time to say that. AndI've realized now in my life,
like there's things that I'vetold people about what the Lord
has told me that I shouldn'thave, you know, that was just
for me. And not like it was theend of the world or anything.

(47:27):
But you look back and think thatwas not for anybody but me and I
should have just savored thatbetween me and the Lord. And you
know, some people within thechurch, they don't like the
prophetic. And, you know, I'm avery conservative theological
guy. But you know, I getcriticism, people criticize the
prophetic movement, and manytimes rightly so. It's like,

(47:50):
we've already got enough dartscoming in. Let's not do more
stupid stuff to make it worsefor everybody, you know, and
have accountability.

Mark Banyard (48:02):
So we're talking about fivefold ministry, which
is the grace gift that's givento everybody, but to some, the
gift of apostle to someprophets, some, so we're talking
about and teach you're pastorand Evangelist, but it's to the
church. And so first thing is,again, back to review. What

(48:25):
we're really saying is theProphetic is a gift that is
given to some, but it's for thechurch, it's for raising up the
church. So all that to say,coming back to the question of
authority, it's really about,one, leaders understanding that
whatever gift and callingthey've got, it's to raise up

(48:46):
the body in the fivefold, right?
And it's also about loving thepeople. I'm thinking about, you
said that earlier. I just pulledit up on my screen here. I'm
referring to First Peter chapterfive verses two to five, Peter's
letter to to the elders who was,you know, just really

(49:11):
encouraging them to be carersand lovers of the flock. You
know, he says in verse two toshepherd the flock that's among
you actually exercisingoversight, not compulsion, but
willingly be willing to servethe body as God would have you
not for shameful gain areeagerly verse three, not
domineering over those who arein charge, but being examples to

(49:32):
the flock. And when the chiefShepherd appears, verse four,
you will receive the unfadingCrown of Glory. So all that to
say is that I think at the heartof all of this is
accountability. That comes fromthe top down in this case, and
because there's only one head ofthe church that I know about,

(49:52):
and it's, it's Jesus, He is thehead of the church, not the
pastors, not the teachers, notthe prophets, not the apostles
and not the evangelists. They'reactually not the head of the
church. And there's got to bethat accountability in that
calling, so that the body ofChrist becomes the focus of the
fivefold and for us to see theprophetic restored.

Pete Mahoney (50:19):
The last 500 years, right, we had the
Protestant Reformation, whichbrought an incredible revelation
back to the church, thatjustification by faith that
brought so much freedom to thechurch at that point, not a
perfect movement, right. TheReformation was not perfect, but
one of the main tenets of theReformation that was there, but

(50:39):
I don't think ever really tookor didn't take in the way that I
believe that the Lord wants itis the priesthood of all
believers. And that's what Ireally believe is the Lord's
heart for the local church. Andno, I know, I'm preaching to
the choir here for everybodythat's listening, probably, but
priesthood of all believers, asa tenet of the Reformation, I

(50:59):
believe, was absolutely from theLord. And I don't see that it
has really taken root in thechurch, but that the Lord wants
to restore that to the church inthis day. And really, that they
will be a people that not justsay it, but when you're around
them, you know that it reallyisn't about them, that they

(51:19):
really just love Jesus, and thatthey would do anything for him.
And they don't care about money,like they need money to live and
support their family and totravel when they need to, but
they don't care about money liketo, they say, it's really true
that my faith tested is worthmore than gold, that they
actually believe that they don'tjust if it's a Bible verse, they

(51:41):
believe that they literallybelieve it, that it's worth more
than gold. I think that is whereGod is today. That's where He's
taking me. I believe that'swhere he's taking the church.
And it's definitely not easy.
And I don't have all theanswers. And I've been asking
the Lord like, because I thinkit's really on God's heart. How
do you do church? I think a lotof people are asking this
question, especially after thepandemic, because they realize

(52:02):
like, what is church like, wehaven't been meeting? And
really, it hasn't changed thatmuch. We're still doing worship,
we still have preaching. So thenwhat, what is the what is
church? That is the question ofthe hour. And people need to ask
that question. And it's a scaryquestion. Because we have a lot
of systems and things built upthat we've never questioned. And

(52:23):
it's scary to question it andsay, maybe this isn't the way we
should actually do church, maybeit should be a little bit
different and have a differentfocus. And that's what I've been
thinking a lot about. It doesscare me, because I don't want
to be the one to start a churchlike that, you know, to really
break the boundaries and andthink about what what is the
Lord saying in this hour. And Ithink there's a lot of different

(52:44):
expressions of the churchworldwide. I don't think it's
one thing that the church is onething. God's heart is one thing,
but the expression and thefunction of the church and how
it operates in Japan, I believeit should be different than how
it operates in in America, thereare different countries and
different cultures, and God hasa way and a purpose in how he's

(53:04):
going to. That's why I believethat the New Testament doesn't
talk a lot about how to dochurch. I think it's because the
Holy Spirit can teach us thereare there are boundaries, like
there needs to be elders needsto be accountability needs to be
proper leadership, there needsto be people leading and pastor,
you know, pastoral people, youknow, etc, etc. And there's

(53:26):
other things, baptism, etc. Butthat, within that, that
framework, there's a lot of roomto see what God could do. And
that's a part of how God wantsto reach nations and peoples and
and I'll just say, it is scary.
It's like poking at something.
And God is poking at somethingsaying, Oh, maybe this isn't the
way that we should be doingchurch. And we're like, we've

(53:48):
always done it this way. Andit's easier this way. And I
don't know what to do learn.
He's like, exactly, you don'tknow what to do. So just admit
that you don't know what to do.
And maybe I could come in, andwe could, we could do something.

Mark Banyard (54:03):
Last year, God spoke to me, Oh, I don't know,
maybe in the fall 2022 and gaveme two questions to ask people,
which I thought was interesting.
He didn't give me the answers.
He said, Ask, ask people thesetwo questions and the questions.
were number one, what does thereset church look like? And

(54:28):
number two, what does a resetleader look like? And my
understanding is the questionsare about the hard reset that
we've gone through. I believethat God's been part of this
hard reset, and I'm going tostop short of saying he made it
all happen, but he certainlyused it to to shake us up and he

(54:51):
starts with his house first. AndI think to come out of what has
been a very, very difficult andchallenging time and not be
changed would be tragic. Butwhat does a reset church look
like it? What does a resetleadership look like? And that's
exactly what you've just said isthat is that do we need to allow

(55:14):
the Holy Spirit, not try to comeup with creative,
entrepreneurial kind of new andfresh boutique niche, ways of
doing church, you know, allcurated for a new generation.
But it's about Holy Spirit,bringing us back to bring us
into alignment, bring us in torestore our fortune so that we

(55:34):
might dream again, bring us tothat place where we are more
aligned with your heart and mindand expressing who you are
through the body of Christ thanwe've ever been before. And I
think that yes, I absolutelyagree with you. And I'm excited
for that. I think it'll behugely challenging, stretching,

(55:55):
kind of frightening. But as longas we keep our eyes on the Lord,
I think why would we go back?
Why? You know, there's the oldsaying the trouble was with
normal as it only gets worse,why would we go back to normal?
Look, we have run out of timetoday. Thank you so much for
being a guest on our show. Ithink we barely touched the tip

(56:19):
of the iceberg here in talkingabout What is the Prophetic
today, and so, yeah, let's,hopefully later in the year,
maybe we can meet again andtalk. This has been a great
conversation. And so thank you.
I'm wondering if just before wesay goodbye, if you would mind

(56:40):
praying, and particularly forour listeners who have been
stirred by our conversation, Ithink perhaps we might have
raised more questions than giventhe answers. But if you could
pray for those who arelistening, and who are hungry
and thirsty, to hear the voiceof God, and to allow God to move
in and through their lives forhis glory.

Pete Mahoney (57:02):
Lord, we thank you so much for this conversation. I
just ask in your name, thatthose that are listening, that
they hear that word mercy, andthey say, Oh, God, I need mercy
right now I need so much mercy.
Lord, you give mercy to thosewho ask and I just pray in Your
name. Those that need the mercyof the prophetic today would

(57:22):
receive it or by your work,would receive it by picking up
their Bible and opening itthey'd receive it Lord by a
direct word from your heart totheirs. And they would just
receive that mercy and say, Oh,thank you, God, I'm on the right
track or thank you God, I'm I'mnot on the right track, and
you're pushing me back to focuson Christ. I also ask the Lord,
for those that are listening.

(57:42):
Maybe they're pastors, maybethey're church leaders, who get
stirred when I'm talking aboutthis change in the church? And
maybe it's maybe it's like, Idon't know if I like this. Or
maybe it's yes, I love thiseither way, Lord, I don't know
I'm not you. But I just ask youif you would come right now,
with your spirit, and bringencouragement and bring

(58:04):
conviction and most of all,Lord, I pray for courage. I pray
for courage for those that havebeen feeling that tap on the
back of the Holy Spirit saying,Okay, let's try this a different
way. Let's do this a differentway. And it's just been hard for
you to say, oh, gosh, how isthis going to work? I pray Lord,
you give wisdom and courage tothose listening to say yes,

(58:24):
let's let's gather the leaderstogether and say, Let's wipe the
table. Lord, we're just pushingeverything off the table and
saying, what do you want God forthis church? What do you want
for this local church? What doyou want for this people? We're
going to organize it function inthe way you want us to function
so I pray these things in yourname, Lord, amen.

Mark Banyard (58:42):
Amen. Amen.
And that's our show for today.
Thanks for listening. We hopeyou enjoyed this episode of
Kingdom talk. You can find allthe notes and links for today's
show at our website, WWW dotKingdom advance ministries.com

(59:05):
forward slash podcast. And onceagain, if you enjoyed our show,
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episodes. Bye for now, and mayGod bless you.