October 14, 2025 • 35 mins
Our guest today is Pete Mahoney. He was first on our show back in January 2023. Pete is an entrepreneur missionary, a Bible teacher, an author, a prophetic voice, as well as many other things.
When Pete was first on the show, he and I took on a pretty big subject with regard to hearing the voice of God and the prophetic. We talked about the biblical basis for the prophetic in our individual lives, as well as in and through the church. We also talked about some of the abuses and excesses of the prophetic particularly in charismatic churches. It was too big of a subject for us to cover the first time around, so this episode we have really tried to once again get back into our conversation to cover more of this significant subject.
This episode is part one of a two part conversation.
Here is a link to the 3-book series that Pete edited and co-authored on our freedom in Christ: Knowing Freedom, Living Freedom and Replicating Freedom.
https://citycentral.org/product-category/manuals
Thanks for listening! Be sure not to miss the next episode. Subscribe now! https://tinyurl.com/4usvdsws
KingdomTalk! podcast can be found on a variety of platforms, e.g., Spotify, Apple Podcasts, iHeart and Overcast, etc.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark (00:10):
Welcome to Kingdom Talk, the podcast where we talk all
about things kingdom.
I'm your host, Mark Banyard,and I'll be interviewing a
variety of people who throughtheir lives and ministries have
been committed to advancing thekingdom of God.
Church planters, churchleaders, pioneers of missions
and ministries, both at home aswell as abroad.
(00:33):
So let's go straight to today'sepisode of Kingdom Talk.
Our guest today is Pete Mahoney.
Pete was first on our show backin January of 2023.
(00:54):
Pete is an entrepreneur, amissionary, a Bible teacher, an
author, a prophetic voice, aswell as many other things.
When Pete was first on theshow, he and I took on a pretty
big subject with regard tohearing the voice of God and the
prophetic.
We talked about the biblicalbasis for the prophetic in our
(01:15):
individual lives, as well as inand through the church.
We also talked about some of theabuses and excesses of the
prophetic, particularly incharismatic churches.
It was too big of a subject forus to cover the first time
around.
So this episode, we have reallytried to once again get back
(01:36):
into our conversation to covermore of this significant
subject.
This episode is part one of atwo-part conversation, the
second of which I'll be postingin a few weeks' time.
Good morning.
It is a new day.
This is the day the Lord hasmade.
And I am so excited becauseonce again I have my friend Pete
(02:00):
Mahoney on the show.
Welcome, Pete.
Pete (02:02):
So glad to be here with you, Mark.
Mark (02:04):
Let's just jump right in.
Let's talk about the state ofthe prophetic movement in the
church today.
Pete (02:13):
Yeah, that's a big subject, isn't it?
And we got into it last time.
A lot of things have happened,those that are familiar with
kind of because that's that'salso a big phrase, right?
The prophetic movement.
Whoa.
Who do you consider to be inthe prophetic movement and what
is that?
But those that believe that Godis still speaking and those
ministries that focus on hearingthe voice of God and expressing
(02:35):
that to others specifically,and ministries that believe in
that.
There's been a, in my view,kind of an explosion, maybe not
in the most positive sense.
Maybe an implosion is a betterword, for what has happened in
these last months and last year,years since we have last
(02:56):
spoken.
It's not been good.
At least in one sense, it hasnot been good.
In another sense, it's verygood because God is in it,
because he wants his glory toshine forth in purity and in
holiness.
And what has happened isthere's been a lot of revelation
of some wonkiness, some sin,some manipulation.
(03:17):
And that's putting it mildly incertain circles with some of
the largest prophetic voices andeven prophetic movements in
the church today.
Mark (03:27):
What do you think that uh the response has been to some of
the things that have come outand come out through the sifting
of God?
Pete (03:38):
Well, the responses have been all over the map, and I
think that's fairly typical, youknow, when you have because
there's lots of factors goingon, because it's not just about
the prophetic, it's about thepersonal and people that have
been abused through themanipulation of the prophetic
and also just the manipulationof individuals involved.
And so whether we're talkingabout IHOP or different
personalities who have beenknown prophetic voices, who have
(04:00):
been caught data mining,several of them, uh high profile
figures.
People have really stood backand said, what is this all
about?
Like, where is God in this?
And why is all of thishappening?
And why didn't God stop it?
And why, you know, so there's alot of questions and a lot of
hurt involved in this becausethere was, in certain
(04:22):
circumstances, sexual abuseinvolved in it, uh manipulation
for those purposes, uh lying,you know, all these sorts of
things that are completely theopposite of what God wants with
this movement, right?
The whole purpose of it is thatpeople would know and
understand who Christ is inintimacy, and that the spirit of
(04:43):
prophecy is the testimony ofJesus.
That's what it was supposed tobe.
Mark (04:48):
And that's why and and and still is and can be, right?
Pete (04:53):
Oh, absolutely.
Well, that's what I'm saying.
Like, that's why people were soshook by it, because the
purpose of God in the prophetic,the opposite had happened for
uh, you know, it kind of blew upin people's minds and people's
hearts what's going on and howwhy has God allowed this?
So when you say what is thereaction, there's a lot of
different reactions.
Some people responded with Godwas never in this, I'm I'm going
(05:14):
to the door.
Some people responded with, um,this is just a leader who has
fallen and I'm following theLord.
So I'm going to continue on andcontinue on with everything
that God has in my life, eventhough I'm hurt right now.
Uh so there's been a widevariety of reaction, but you
could say implosion andexplosion for sure.
Mark (05:33):
Right.
Let's just leave the uh thereaction uh to one side.
We'll get back to that later.
And I think it's fair to callit actually a damage report, not
just simply a reaction.
And I want to leave that andcome back to it because I think
it's on my heart was some one ofthe things I'm really concerned
about, are the people who havebeen hurt by this.
(05:55):
But uh perhaps the kneejack-jerk reaction to just say,
I don't want anything to do withthe prophetic ever again.
I don't want anything to dowith the apostolic, because
those two things are oftenlumped together.
And also what I'm hearing, andum not through the grapefruit
vine, but directly throughpeople, is that they don't want
(06:17):
anything to do with thecharismatic movement, which in
one simple, you know, one bucketfor for all statement, is that
they don't want anything to dowith the the Holy Spirit, which
they often, which is labeled theexcesses of the spirit, which
fair enough, sometimes it is.
You know, when it's the flesh,that's the that definitely is
(06:39):
not the Holy Spirit, but it isperceived as excesses.
So let's just talk about theheart of this uh um in a couple
ways.
First of all, just we're notreally talking about God and his
spirit, we're talking aboutman's use or abuse of it,
correct?
Pete (06:57):
Absolutely.
I mean, these things are Imean, if you tie together what
happened with just the generalprinciples of the prophetic and
lump them all in one thing andsay, because these things
happened, we're gonna chuck theprophetic.
That's like the classic exampleof we're no, we're no longer
gonna have worship in the churchbecause the worship leader was
in sexual sin, or we're nolonger gonna teach whatever
(07:17):
doctrine and whatever.
I mean, if you look at thechurch, it uh usually what
happens is you'll have like acharismatic leader fall, and
then the reformed people are alljumping on them saying, look,
it was because of their theologythat that this person fell, but
then a reformed leader falls.
And then what do you say then?
Did they fall because they havethe wrong theology?
And when the Catholic leaderfalls, it's because of their
(07:39):
theology.
No, it's because they'resinners, you know, who need
first of all redemption if theydon't have that, and then
sanctification.
Uh, you know, the expectationshould be that our leaders uh
move in holiness and inrighteousness.
And when they get separatedout, where they become kind of
their own celebrity status,where no one can come to them
(08:01):
and say, hey, brother, you yougot some, there's some stuff in
your life.
It can go sideways really fast,and that's what we're seeing.
So we have to separate those twothings out and say, you can
always point and say, well,because of this person's
theology, that's why they fellinto sin.
Maybe that's true.
Or maybe it just could bebecause they're a person and
they fell into sin because theyseparated themselves out from
(08:23):
the body, they had noaccountability, they had no
elders over them, or whatever.
We all fall into sin.
There are different levels ofsin as far as the ramifications
of those sins.
And also what's even, Iwouldn't say it's even more
important, but what's even, youknow, it's very important to
speak about the response thatpeople have.
So it's not just about whetheryou were caught in sin, but what
(08:45):
is your response when you are?
Is it making excuses?
Is it kicking back against thevictims?
Is it all you know, blamingother people?
Then that shows a reallydeep-rooted issue in you as a
believer, if that's yourresponse.
And that has been the responsewith a lot of these folks.
And so I can understand whypeople are like confused by the
whole thing.
(09:05):
But we have to do two things.
One is allow for there to bethe potential of restoration in
certain circumstances,determined by, you know,
whatever the elders of thatmovement are.
But we also can't just allowpeople to do whatever they want
and say, well, I'm restoredbecause I did A, B, and C.
There has to be a standard oflike, if you do these certain
(09:28):
things, then you probablyshouldn't be in ministry
anymore.
But maybe I'm wrong on that.
Mark (09:34):
Um yeah, you might say the jury's out on that, but I think
there's a lot of people whowould be be willing to uh vote
right now, given the chance.
Um something about thecharismatic.
Now, for me, I just for the forour listeners, I just I just
want to maybe define the wordcharismatic.
(09:56):
If if you think of thecharismatic, if you use the word
charismatic in terms of thecharismatic move, which most
people are referring tocharismatic churches, uh for me,
my understanding is, andbecause I caught the tail end of
that when I became a believer,there was a move in the 60s, and
(10:18):
it impacted uh particularly theRoman Catholic Church, the
Anglican Church, and the UnitedChurch here in Canada.
And of course, down in theStates, it had a different
expression, but it was moretowards traditional churches and
movements than it was to themore modern certain
Pentecostalism didn't need acharismatic move.
(10:41):
Um the AOG didn't, thePentecostals Assembly of uh
Canada didn't, and around theworld, so on and so forth.
So, you know, rather thantalking about the gift of the
Holy Spirit, when we talk aboutcharismatic churches, we're
really talking about traditions,um, an understanding and
(11:01):
appreciation of the gifts andhow they're used.
And so um with so back to thecharismatic movement right now.
If if the wheels are havefallen off the wagon, or not
close, but almost, what are someof the things that need to be
put into place so this doesn'thappen again or that we can
(11:24):
rebuild?
Pete (11:25):
Yeah, I think in a general sense, there needs to be a
return to just the pureness ofhumility, saying we don't we
obviously have in some waysgotten this wrong in whatever uh
structure that this has beenput forward, whatever structure
we've been using, we need toevaluate that structure and say,
what why is this continuing tofall apart?
(11:46):
Because it is continuing tofall apart.
So we need to ask the question,why does this keep happening?
Where we have these bigcollapses of movements, etc.
Now, not that that's new in thechurch, but why is it
specifically tied with prophecy?
What goes wrong in prophecy andwhy does it keep happening is a
good question to ask.
(12:06):
And say in humility, Lord,please give us the guideposts.
What is the way to go?
Well, he's the way, the truth,and the life.
So we know that again, thespirit of prophecy is the
testimony of Jesus.
So that's the that's the key.
So then we need to go back tothat.
And I think that first of all,it's going back to what is the
(12:27):
scriptural purpose of prophecy?
Go back there and also be opento a unity of the body across
denominational walls because weall carry something different
that the other needs.
Mark (12:41):
So let me jump in.
What's your answer to that?
Your your quickie answer.
That's not fair.
I know.
Pete (12:47):
What's my quickie answer to to
Mark (12:50):
that question?
Pete (12:51):
To the prophetic going bad, and how do we get back on
track?
Mark (12:53):
No, the scriptural...,
Pete (12:55):
Oh, yes.
What is the scriptural purposeof prophecy?
Yes.
Well, to strengthen, encourage,and comfort, you know, the
body.
That's the primary purpose ofprophecy, according to the
scriptures, is to strengthen,encourage, and comfort the body,
which includes individuals,obviously.
We also look at all thereferences to, you know, to
revealing God to non-believers,that the voice of God through us
(13:19):
can be a way in which Godcommunicates to even the
non-believer and makes the thesecrets of their heart laid
bare, where they're like, thereis a living God, and we get to
be a part of that.
So that's that's anevangelistic tool where we're
preaching the gospel, we're alsosharing the heart of God for
individuals.
And those individuals aretouched by things that God is
(13:41):
saying to them and alsorevealing sometimes even sin in
their life, or revealing partsof their heart that they're
like, I need to repent, I needto turn to Christ and receive
the gospel.
So you have a strengthening,encouraging, and comforting
within the body.
You have a revelation of God tonon-believers who get their
secrets of their heartsrevealed.
(14:02):
You have an equipping ofbelievers for ministry.
When you look at the fivefold,one of those is the purpose of
prophecy, right?
Is to equip believers forministry so that each of us can
know how to hear God's voice,share what the Lord is speaking,
not in a this, thus saith theLord kind of way, but in first
of all, in our personal prayerlife, learning to discern what
(14:25):
is God, what is not.
Um, it starts in the smallthings.
It starts in just when you'repraying just alone in your room,
when you hear something, isthat God?
Is that something else?
Is that my own thoughts?
You're starting there, you'renot jumping to these prophetic
declarations to other people,but you're it's a way in which
(14:48):
God is communicating to yourheart in intimacy with Him.
So that's that's somethingthat's like baseline
Christianity, right?
Right.
Going into the Word of God,you're hearing the Word of God
through the scriptures, and thenGod is illuminating that to you
through the Holy Spirit.
So how is he doing that if he'snot speaking to you?
Now, my reformed friends or moreconservative friends might say,
(15:10):
well, that's not God's will,but it is, right?
You could at least say thatillumination is the Lord
speaking to your heart.
So we have learning andedification.
Again, that when Paul talksabout when the prophets get
together and they speak, they'rejudging each other.
Uh, the listeners are hearingand weighing it and testing it,
and that is for their learningand edification.
(15:33):
So we can't have everybodyspeaking at the same time, Paul
says, because we need everybodyneeds to be able to hear so that
they can learn and they can beencouraged, so that everybody
can be.
So that's why there needs to beorder if there's going to be a
uh a public declaration ofprophecy, right?
So, anyways, I'm going, I'msorry, I'm going through a lot
of things now, but these are thethings where you look at when
(15:53):
the scripture talks aboutprophecy, what are they what is
it talking about?
And also guidance, likeguidance and direction.
You'll see that specifically inthe book of Acts, where they're
getting, you call it a downloadfrom the Lord saying, do this,
go to this place.
God is sending you out to here.
Um, Acts chapter 13.
(16:13):
So those are the things that Isee as far as what are the
purposes of prophecy.
And you'll notice that all ofthem are about strengthening the
body and for the purposes ofGod.
So it's not about, not that Godcan't speak to our individual
lives and the various thingsthat are going on in our lives.
Of course he can't.
Of course he wants to.
(16:34):
But I think overarching thegift of prophecy is for the
body, for the encouragement andstrengthening of the body, for
us together to know what God issaying and where to go.
Um, yeah, so that's what that'swhat I would say as far as what
what the scriptural purpose ofprophecy is, and you can add to
that.
Mark (16:56):
Wow.
So uh boy, there's so manythings that we could talk about.
Um in the shortness of ourtime, though.
Uh just very quickly, uh just Iguess to summarize what you
just said, at a time like this,the time that we find ourselves
in, maybe it's good for us to goback to the Bible and to review
what the Bible says about thisrather than just listen to yet
(17:18):
again another podcast like we'redoing this morning.
Um or or the opinions of men isreally um uh the hearsay and
the, you know, the sometimes thethe comments that are fueled by
hurt, you know, which aregenuine, the the feelings are
genuine, maybe the commentsaren't correct.
But so so we really need to goback and say what does the
(17:41):
scripture say about this?
But uh in what you said is alsokind of uh some of the founding
issues of or the dynamics ofwhat's going on here, and that
is that we can have the TenCommandments, let's say, and we
can read them out and we canstudy them, but then we go and
(18:04):
live our lives either accordingto or not according to.
Pete (18:08):
Right.
Mark (18:08):
So you can have a church that teaches all about the
prophetic, all about theapostolic, and you know, but how
they operate in the gifts ofthe spirit and how they use them
for their own benefit candiffer from the teaching itself.
Pete (18:23):
That's right.
Mark (18:24):
And uh therein lies the problem.
Uh one of the things I see, andwe I want to get back to some
of your other points about goingforward with this from a
biblical um point of view.
There's something in this aboutbecoming a celebrity.
Speaker (18:39):
Yes.
Mark (18:40):
You know, there's something about becoming famous,
there's something about theseguys who operate in these things
where they draw thousands ofhundreds, if not thousands, of
people to themselves.
But at the end of the day,you're not thinking about the
people who are sitting in thecongregation.
You're thinking about that thatparticular person.
Is there any uh any thoughtsabout that with regard to going
(19:02):
forward?
I mean, we can't stop that fromhappening.
I guess that has to do with theheart of each individual.
Pete (19:08):
That does have to do with the heart of each individual,
but I think you're hitting onsomething that has infiltrated
into specifically thecharismatic movement that I
think needs to be called out.
Or at least it needs to bediscussed, like it needs to be
okay.
If this is what you believe,then let's talk about how this
has worked out and how we canchange it.
Um, kind of how I sum it up withhow things can go sideways is
(19:31):
the three M's, which is money,manipulation, and man of God
culture.
So money manipulation and manof God culture.
So man of God culture is thewhole idea that you know touch
not the Lord's anointed.
Mark (19:46):
So okay.
Pete (19:49):
So that person is kind of above the fray.
The gift the gifts of God arenever revoked that kind of
teaching.
Now we understand that there'sa certain truth there.
Okay, correct.
Like always, there's a certaintruth there.
And if we're talking abouthonoring leadership, that's one
thing, and that's a good thing,and we should honor leadership.
And the scriptures tell us tovery pointedly in the New
(20:11):
Testament to do so.
I agree.
Um, but if you're speakingabout a culture of a leader
being a Moses-like figure thatcannot be opposed, I can't see
how that can ever go well.
And how that aligns with theNew Testament teachings of what
a leader should be, uh, it seemsto be the opposites, right?
Because a leader within thechurch is supposed to be the
(20:33):
greatest servant, laying theirlife down for the sheep, just
like the grand shepherd, okay?
The shepherd above all of us.
And so if a man of God cultureplaces the leader above the
sheep, where he cannot be everuh corrected, then that's just
plain wrong.
(20:54):
And it creates a culture ofwhich people start covering
things up.
So it creates cover-up culturewhere you can't ever say
anything against the leader.
And if he he does somethingwrong, then we need to cover it
up, we need to hide it, andmaybe do something behind the
scenes but never make it public.
When a lot of times thesethings are are like public sins,
(21:15):
even.
So I think that that culturewithin the charismatic movement
has to be confronted andchanged, or else these things
will continue to happen.
That's my opinion.
Because it will just allow forabuse.
Because if you have one personin and who is refusing
accountability, when you look atthe New Testament model of the
(21:37):
church, it's it's a plurality ofelders.
Right.
And I know that this isn'talways within the local church,
but I think you have to takethat principle even into the
parachurch organizations, again,in my opinion.
Mark (21:51):
Right.
People who are surroundedsurrounded by people, but yet uh
are accountable to none.
It will always end up being uha time bomb, a ticking time
bomb.
And and everybody isvulnerable, not just the leader,
by allowing him or herself tobe put in that situation, but
(22:13):
all ultimately the people too.
Pete (22:15):
Correct.
And that's I don't want tothrow anybody in the under the
bus on that sort of thing whenif you've been hurt by a leader
to then blame you and say, hey,you really need to just go back
to the Bible and yes, that'strue.
But first of all, toacknowledge that people are
really hurt, you know, they'rereally hurt, they've been hurt
by what has happened.
Mark (22:35):
And so important.
Pete (22:36):
Yeah, and that's that's we recognize that and don't and
don't belittle that and knowthat it takes time to come back
into the fold, but just to say,don't give up on the Lord
because of what his servant did,um, which I know is is an
(22:57):
elementary principle, but all ofus need to be reminded,
especially when we're hurt.
Because how many stories haveyou heard where, you know, even
on a local church level, wherewhere an elder or elders do
something wrong and people getoffended and they they never
come back to church after that.
They just they do me and Jesus.
Mark (23:15):
Right.
They give up on God in a sense,but thinking that they haven't,
but reality is that they havebecause it's more than it's more
than just that.
Pete (23:26):
You can't be outside of the body, and people will say,
well, I can do my Jesus and mething in the forest.
No, you can't actually.
You you can in a sense that youstill have a relationship with
God, but the scriptures tell usthat we should not forsake the
gathering for a reason.
That's for you.
It's not just, you know, as faras a theological thing.
(23:48):
That's for you to be healthy,and that's for you to give what
you have to the body.
Mark (23:57):
I might just say at this point that uh, again, for our
listeners, that these are very,very serious issues, and they
are not easily solved.
In uh we are not trying today,quickly trying to say this is an
easy solve and just do this,this, and this, and it's all
fixed, or that one person'sright, one person's wrong, or if
(24:19):
these people get their heartright, then everything will be
fine.
This is this is an ongoing,it's not so much something that
you can resolve by justimplementing a particular rule
or a regulation.
This is all of this that we'retalking about has to do with the
heart.
Um, it has to do with the heartthat seeks ambition, seeks to
(24:42):
take the center andintentionally or unintentionally
and displace Jesus off of histhrone.
It also involves the heart ofthe people who want a king so
they can be like all the othernations.
Yep.
Um they they, you know, apeople who want somebody to be a
celebrity leader, but are quickto uh chop off that leader's
(25:05):
head when the leader is, youknow, it's discovered that they
have feet of clay.
Again, not making, not takingsides on this or or at all um
suggesting that it's oneperson's fault or nor uh and not
looking for excuses, but thechallenge for us today is to
(25:25):
love Jesus, to be open to thethings of God, the the things
that God has given us, to lovehis church, and to come back to
that place of saying, how how dowe find that balance between
honoring leadership, acceptingtheir guidance, and um but at
the same time seeing thatthere's a biblical basis for
(25:49):
accountability so we don't letthe enemy rob us of all the
wonderful things that God hasgiven us.
Pete (25:58):
Absolutely.
And I think that that's whatyou hit it on the nail on the
head there, as far as you know,people have ideas of of things.
Like they they knowtheologically what they should
do, and they will even have adoctrinal statement or they will
have a, you know, this is theguidance for how to use
prophecy, and they'll be goodguidance.
(26:19):
They just don't do itthemselves.
Or the leadership doesn'toperate in the way that's
written in their own manual orwhatever it is.
So it really does come down toin the secret place and in your
own quiet place in your heart,why are you doing what you're
doing?
And that's the whole teachingsof Jesus through the Sermon on
the Mount, all the way through.
What is the intention of theheart behind why we not just
(26:42):
what we do, but why we do it isjust or more important that the
seed bed of sin is that tinything.
I'm angry with my brother, ismurder.
When that seed is planted, thatseed becomes murder.
Okay, that's a that's anincredible teaching if you think
about it.
But we were seeing thathappening.
(27:04):
Hatred in its smallest form,when it is birthed completely,
is murder.
And lust, when it is birthedcompletely, is adultery in the
end.
And so these little hearts,these little foxes, as they say,
that get into the vineyard iswhat we're not looking at, is
what we should be looking at.
(27:25):
We're looking at the big thingswhen in actuality it's started
in those small little thingsthat build into strongholds in
our lives that are unseen byanyone, and maybe even to
ourselves, right?
We're we're blinded because theenemy has blinded us to it,
that that little seed of hatredor that little seed of lust has
gotten in and is built up overthe years unchecked.
(27:49):
That I think is the core of thenwhere we end up, not only in
the prophetic movement, but allof us.
When we uh we don't just fallinto sin.
And I don't even oftentimeslike to use that term, although
we can.
Um, but most of the time it's asteady building, and then
(28:09):
there's the fall.
So
Mark (28:11):
That's good.
Pete (28:12):
That's why you know, getting back to a focus on
Christ Himself, and alsosanctification, becoming more
like Christ daily is some ofthat needs to be a central
teaching in the church.
And I know it's like, duh, butsanctification, becoming more
like Christ, and an expectationof that, and and an expectation
(28:35):
of holiness, knowing that we'regoing to fail in that.
But there's an expectation ofholiness for all of us, not just
for the leadership, but everysingle one of us.
The guy on the soundboard atthe church has the same
expectation of holiness as theleader, even though he's held to
an even higher standard becausehe's teaching it.
It's coming out of his mouth.
(28:56):
He's held to an even higherstandard, but the guy who's
running the soundboard, he'sheld to a high standard too, you
know.
So that's for that's foreverybody.
That's a universal principle ofthe church.
Mark (29:13):
Before we hit the record button today, we were talking
about the prophetic movement,and and you used a phrase, uh,
you said that uh God has blownup the prophetic movement, uh, a
very powerful, um, conjured upa very powerful picture for me.
Uh but you went on to say thatuh that was because that he was
(29:36):
no longer the center.
And I know that's somethingthat's really on your heart uh
about lifting up Jesus and forhim being the center.
Um how do you see I have acouple of questions about this.
First of all, when we say thatGod has blown up the prophetic
movement, I actually number I Iactually believe that, but
(29:57):
that's not you know, that's not.
That's God doing something.
Like he has broken his silence,and he has not made this
happen, but he's decided to,however, he does that, and I'll
leave that to other people tobring up a teach on that
biblically and then wrap that ina theology.
(30:18):
But basically, God breaks hissilence and he moves in times
and space in our lives.
And so I believe this hashappened.
But but what's going on here inyour understanding?
Pete (30:30):
I think it goes back to what we just spoke about, about
the inner heart of man.
And, you know, they will cometo me on that day and say, Lord,
Lord, did we not do A, B, andC?
And he will say to them, Inever knew you.
Now, I'm not making the pointthat these people don't know the
Lord, but the point is, what isthe heart condition of why we
do what we do?
And I think what happened inthe prophetic is the heart
(30:52):
condition went off of Christbecoming more like Christ, the
testimony of Jesus, thetestimony of Jesus to us, the
testimony of Jesus to theoutside world, the testimony of
Jesus, period.
Didn't get completely lostbecause you can't make that
statement.
There are lots of people withinthe charismatic movement who
love the Lord, who serve theLord.
(31:13):
That's most people who want tosee the testimony of Jesus go
out, but we need to stand backand say something dramatic has
happened and God has been theauthor of it.
There's a kairos moment rightnow of the Lord saying, the way
that this has been done, I don'twant it done this way anymore.
We're done with this thing.
(31:33):
And I think part of it is theprophetic movement being about
self-focus, self-aggrandizement,my calling, etc.
And it almost becoming what theaccusation of the world has
been towards the propheticmovement and of conservative
Christians towards the propheticmovement, which is it's just
like fortune telling, which itisn't, it shouldn't be, but it
(31:59):
can become that.
Where people are coming intomeetings to get a word of the
Lord.
And, you know, I I love gettinga word from the Lord.
I love hearing the voice ofGod, and I want more of that.
But what what I think cameabout was people were coming in
with a with a idea in their headof not, I'm coming here to
(32:19):
worship the Lord, I'm cominghere to serve, I'm coming, you
know, those sorts of things.
To I'm coming here to get theword of the Lord for my personal
whatever, whatever it is.
And that that might be a uh youknow, a third or a fourth thing
you might have on the list ofyou know what might happen in a
meeting like that.
But it's like stand up on thefront and we're gonna call
(32:40):
people out, and it just becomesabout us in a lot of ways.
Mark (32:44):
Um it has become that.
Pete (32:46):
Yeah.
Mark (32:47):
It has, it's, it has become that.
Pete (32:50):
And if you look at the New Testament and you you look at
what Paul is talking about theprophetic being used for
learning and encouragement, thatthat that seems to be a but
we're learning from each otherand what the Lord is speaking to
other people.
It's not just about us, it'sabout what God is doing in his
church, it's about what God isdoing in your local fellowship,
(33:10):
what he's doing in your family,etc.
Again, not that God can't everspeak to individual things, and
he does,
Mark (33:16):
...and he does,
Pete (33:17):
but that it has become too much self-focused and not
focused on Christ Himself.
And so and there's been hurtwithin it, and people have been
getting hurt, and the shepherddoes not like that.
Not only does that pain hisheart, he hates it.
He hates it when his sheep areabused, he hates it when his
(33:40):
sheep are manipulated, he hatesit when his sheep are taken
advantage of.
And some people out there mightbe wondering, well, why did God
wait until now?
We don't have the answer tothat question, but we know then
the time is now.
God is unveiling.
This is a moment of unveilingsin.
It's a moment of unveilingabuse, and that's it's a
(34:02):
terribly difficult time for somany people.
But what it can be also is thatmoment where if a person has put
their hope unwillingly orunwittingly upon a man or a
woman, they can now turn thathope back upon Christ Himself.
And I know that sounds verytrite.
It is not trite.
That is exactly what ishappening, it's exactly what God
(34:26):
wants, and that is the point.
Mark (34:37):
That's the end of part one of my conversation with Pete
Mahoney.
Thanks for listening.
The second part of this episodewill be posted soon, so stay
tuned.
The easiest way of making sureyou don't miss any of our shows
is by clicking on the subscribelink provided, and we will let
you know every time there is anew episode.
(34:58):
You can find all the notes andlinks for today's show at our
website, www.kingdomadvanceministries.com / podcasts.
Bye for now, and may God bless.
Welcome to Kingdom Talk, the podcast where we talk all
about things kingdom.
I'm your host, Mark Banyard,and I'll be interviewing a
variety of people who throughtheir lives and ministries have
been committed to advancing thekingdom of God.
Church planters, churchleaders, pioneers of missions
and ministries, both at home aswell as abroad.
(00:33):
So let's go straight to today'sepisode of Kingdom Talk.
Our guest today is Pete Mahoney.
Pete was first on our show backin January of 2023.
(00:54):
Pete is an entrepreneur, amissionary, a Bible teacher, an
author, a prophetic voice, aswell as many other things.
When Pete was first on theshow, he and I took on a pretty
big subject with regard tohearing the voice of God and the
prophetic.
We talked about the biblicalbasis for the prophetic in our
(01:15):
individual lives, as well as inand through the church.
We also talked about some of theabuses and excesses of the
prophetic, particularly incharismatic churches.
It was too big of a subject forus to cover the first time
around.
So this episode, we have reallytried to once again get back
(01:36):
into our conversation to covermore of this significant
subject.
This episode is part one of atwo-part conversation, the
second of which I'll be postingin a few weeks' time.
Good morning.
It is a new day.
This is the day the Lord hasmade.
And I am so excited becauseonce again I have my friend Pete
(02:00):
Mahoney on the show.
Welcome, Pete.
Pete (02:02):
So glad to be here with you, Mark.
Mark (02:04):
Let's just jump right in.
Let's talk about the state ofthe prophetic movement in the
church today.
Pete (02:13):
Yeah, that's a big subject, isn't it?
And we got into it last time.
A lot of things have happened,those that are familiar with
kind of because that's that'salso a big phrase, right?
The prophetic movement.
Whoa.
Who do you consider to be inthe prophetic movement and what
is that?
But those that believe that Godis still speaking and those
ministries that focus on hearingthe voice of God and expressing
(02:35):
that to others specifically,and ministries that believe in
that.
There's been a, in my view,kind of an explosion, maybe not
in the most positive sense.
Maybe an implosion is a betterword, for what has happened in
these last months and last year,years since we have last
(02:56):
spoken.
It's not been good.
At least in one sense, it hasnot been good.
In another sense, it's verygood because God is in it,
because he wants his glory toshine forth in purity and in
holiness.
And what has happened isthere's been a lot of revelation
of some wonkiness, some sin,some manipulation.
(03:17):
And that's putting it mildly incertain circles with some of
the largest prophetic voices andeven prophetic movements in
the church today.
Mark (03:27):
What do you think that uh the response has been to some of
the things that have come outand come out through the sifting
of God?
Pete (03:38):
Well, the responses have been all over the map, and I
think that's fairly typical, youknow, when you have because
there's lots of factors goingon, because it's not just about
the prophetic, it's about thepersonal and people that have
been abused through themanipulation of the prophetic
and also just the manipulationof individuals involved.
And so whether we're talkingabout IHOP or different
personalities who have beenknown prophetic voices, who have
(04:00):
been caught data mining,several of them, uh high profile
figures.
People have really stood backand said, what is this all
about?
Like, where is God in this?
And why is all of thishappening?
And why didn't God stop it?
And why, you know, so there's alot of questions and a lot of
hurt involved in this becausethere was, in certain
(04:22):
circumstances, sexual abuseinvolved in it, uh manipulation
for those purposes, uh lying,you know, all these sorts of
things that are completely theopposite of what God wants with
this movement, right?
The whole purpose of it is thatpeople would know and
understand who Christ is inintimacy, and that the spirit of
(04:43):
prophecy is the testimony ofJesus.
That's what it was supposed tobe.
Mark (04:48):
And that's why and and and still is and can be, right?
Pete (04:53):
Oh, absolutely.
Well, that's what I'm saying.
Like, that's why people were soshook by it, because the
purpose of God in the prophetic,the opposite had happened for
uh, you know, it kind of blew upin people's minds and people's
hearts what's going on and howwhy has God allowed this?
So when you say what is thereaction, there's a lot of
different reactions.
Some people responded with Godwas never in this, I'm I'm going
(05:14):
to the door.
Some people responded with, um,this is just a leader who has
fallen and I'm following theLord.
So I'm going to continue on andcontinue on with everything
that God has in my life, eventhough I'm hurt right now.
Uh so there's been a widevariety of reaction, but you
could say implosion andexplosion for sure.
Mark (05:33):
Right.
Let's just leave the uh thereaction uh to one side.
We'll get back to that later.
And I think it's fair to callit actually a damage report, not
just simply a reaction.
And I want to leave that andcome back to it because I think
it's on my heart was some one ofthe things I'm really concerned
about, are the people who havebeen hurt by this.
(05:55):
But uh perhaps the kneejack-jerk reaction to just say,
I don't want anything to do withthe prophetic ever again.
I don't want anything to dowith the apostolic, because
those two things are oftenlumped together.
And also what I'm hearing, andum not through the grapefruit
vine, but directly throughpeople, is that they don't want
(06:17):
anything to do with thecharismatic movement, which in
one simple, you know, one bucketfor for all statement, is that
they don't want anything to dowith the the Holy Spirit, which
they often, which is labeled theexcesses of the spirit, which
fair enough, sometimes it is.
You know, when it's the flesh,that's the that definitely is
(06:39):
not the Holy Spirit, but it isperceived as excesses.
So let's just talk about theheart of this uh um in a couple
ways.
First of all, just we're notreally talking about God and his
spirit, we're talking aboutman's use or abuse of it,
correct?
Pete (06:57):
Absolutely.
I mean, these things are Imean, if you tie together what
happened with just the generalprinciples of the prophetic and
lump them all in one thing andsay, because these things
happened, we're gonna chuck theprophetic.
That's like the classic exampleof we're no, we're no longer
gonna have worship in the churchbecause the worship leader was
in sexual sin, or we're nolonger gonna teach whatever
(07:17):
doctrine and whatever.
I mean, if you look at thechurch, it uh usually what
happens is you'll have like acharismatic leader fall, and
then the reformed people are alljumping on them saying, look,
it was because of their theologythat that this person fell, but
then a reformed leader falls.
And then what do you say then?
Did they fall because they havethe wrong theology?
And when the Catholic leaderfalls, it's because of their
(07:39):
theology.
No, it's because they'resinners, you know, who need
first of all redemption if theydon't have that, and then
sanctification.
Uh, you know, the expectationshould be that our leaders uh
move in holiness and inrighteousness.
And when they get separatedout, where they become kind of
their own celebrity status,where no one can come to them
(08:01):
and say, hey, brother, you yougot some, there's some stuff in
your life.
It can go sideways really fast,and that's what we're seeing.
So we have to separate those twothings out and say, you can
always point and say, well,because of this person's
theology, that's why they fellinto sin.
Maybe that's true.
Or maybe it just could bebecause they're a person and
they fell into sin because theyseparated themselves out from
(08:23):
the body, they had noaccountability, they had no
elders over them, or whatever.
We all fall into sin.
There are different levels ofsin as far as the ramifications
of those sins.
And also what's even, Iwouldn't say it's even more
important, but what's even, youknow, it's very important to
speak about the response thatpeople have.
So it's not just about whetheryou were caught in sin, but what
(08:45):
is your response when you are?
Is it making excuses?
Is it kicking back against thevictims?
Is it all you know, blamingother people?
Then that shows a reallydeep-rooted issue in you as a
believer, if that's yourresponse.
And that has been the responsewith a lot of these folks.
And so I can understand whypeople are like confused by the
whole thing.
(09:05):
But we have to do two things.
One is allow for there to bethe potential of restoration in
certain circumstances,determined by, you know,
whatever the elders of thatmovement are.
But we also can't just allowpeople to do whatever they want
and say, well, I'm restoredbecause I did A, B, and C.
There has to be a standard oflike, if you do these certain
(09:28):
things, then you probablyshouldn't be in ministry
anymore.
But maybe I'm wrong on that.
Mark (09:34):
Um yeah, you might say the jury's out on that, but I think
there's a lot of people whowould be be willing to uh vote
right now, given the chance.
Um something about thecharismatic.
Now, for me, I just for the forour listeners, I just I just
want to maybe define the wordcharismatic.
(09:56):
If if you think of thecharismatic, if you use the word
charismatic in terms of thecharismatic move, which most
people are referring tocharismatic churches, uh for me,
my understanding is, andbecause I caught the tail end of
that when I became a believer,there was a move in the 60s, and
(10:18):
it impacted uh particularly theRoman Catholic Church, the
Anglican Church, and the UnitedChurch here in Canada.
And of course, down in theStates, it had a different
expression, but it was moretowards traditional churches and
movements than it was to themore modern certain
Pentecostalism didn't need acharismatic move.
(10:41):
Um the AOG didn't, thePentecostals Assembly of uh
Canada didn't, and around theworld, so on and so forth.
So, you know, rather thantalking about the gift of the
Holy Spirit, when we talk aboutcharismatic churches, we're
really talking about traditions,um, an understanding and
(11:01):
appreciation of the gifts andhow they're used.
And so um with so back to thecharismatic movement right now.
If if the wheels are havefallen off the wagon, or not
close, but almost, what are someof the things that need to be
put into place so this doesn'thappen again or that we can
(11:24):
rebuild?
Pete (11:25):
Yeah, I think in a general sense, there needs to be a
return to just the pureness ofhumility, saying we don't we
obviously have in some waysgotten this wrong in whatever uh
structure that this has beenput forward, whatever structure
we've been using, we need toevaluate that structure and say,
what why is this continuing tofall apart?
(11:46):
Because it is continuing tofall apart.
So we need to ask the question,why does this keep happening?
Where we have these bigcollapses of movements, etc.
Now, not that that's new in thechurch, but why is it
specifically tied with prophecy?
What goes wrong in prophecy andwhy does it keep happening is a
good question to ask.
(12:06):
And say in humility, Lord,please give us the guideposts.
What is the way to go?
Well, he's the way, the truth,and the life.
So we know that again, thespirit of prophecy is the
testimony of Jesus.
So that's the that's the key.
So then we need to go back tothat.
And I think that first of all,it's going back to what is the
(12:27):
scriptural purpose of prophecy?
Go back there and also be opento a unity of the body across
denominational walls because weall carry something different
that the other needs.
Mark (12:41):
So let me jump in.
What's your answer to that?
Your your quickie answer.
That's not fair.
I know.
Pete (12:47):
What's my quickie answer to to
Mark (12:50):
that question?
Pete (12:51):
To the prophetic going bad, and how do we get back on
track?
Mark (12:53):
No, the scriptural...,
Pete (12:55):
Oh, yes.
What is the scriptural purposeof prophecy?
Yes.
Well, to strengthen, encourage,and comfort, you know, the
body.
That's the primary purpose ofprophecy, according to the
scriptures, is to strengthen,encourage, and comfort the body,
which includes individuals,obviously.
We also look at all thereferences to, you know, to
revealing God to non-believers,that the voice of God through us
(13:19):
can be a way in which Godcommunicates to even the
non-believer and makes the thesecrets of their heart laid
bare, where they're like, thereis a living God, and we get to
be a part of that.
So that's that's anevangelistic tool where we're
preaching the gospel, we're alsosharing the heart of God for
individuals.
And those individuals aretouched by things that God is
(13:41):
saying to them and alsorevealing sometimes even sin in
their life, or revealing partsof their heart that they're
like, I need to repent, I needto turn to Christ and receive
the gospel.
So you have a strengthening,encouraging, and comforting
within the body.
You have a revelation of God tonon-believers who get their
secrets of their heartsrevealed.
(14:02):
You have an equipping ofbelievers for ministry.
When you look at the fivefold,one of those is the purpose of
prophecy, right?
Is to equip believers forministry so that each of us can
know how to hear God's voice,share what the Lord is speaking,
not in a this, thus saith theLord kind of way, but in first
of all, in our personal prayerlife, learning to discern what
(14:25):
is God, what is not.
Um, it starts in the smallthings.
It starts in just when you'repraying just alone in your room,
when you hear something, isthat God?
Is that something else?
Is that my own thoughts?
You're starting there, you'renot jumping to these prophetic
declarations to other people,but you're it's a way in which
(14:48):
God is communicating to yourheart in intimacy with Him.
So that's that's somethingthat's like baseline
Christianity, right?
Right.
Going into the Word of God,you're hearing the Word of God
through the scriptures, and thenGod is illuminating that to you
through the Holy Spirit.
So how is he doing that if he'snot speaking to you?
Now, my reformed friends or moreconservative friends might say,
(15:10):
well, that's not God's will,but it is, right?
You could at least say thatillumination is the Lord
speaking to your heart.
So we have learning andedification.
Again, that when Paul talksabout when the prophets get
together and they speak, they'rejudging each other.
Uh, the listeners are hearingand weighing it and testing it,
and that is for their learningand edification.
(15:33):
So we can't have everybodyspeaking at the same time, Paul
says, because we need everybodyneeds to be able to hear so that
they can learn and they can beencouraged, so that everybody
can be.
So that's why there needs to beorder if there's going to be a
uh a public declaration ofprophecy, right?
So, anyways, I'm going, I'msorry, I'm going through a lot
of things now, but these are thethings where you look at when
(15:53):
the scripture talks aboutprophecy, what are they what is
it talking about?
And also guidance, likeguidance and direction.
You'll see that specifically inthe book of Acts, where they're
getting, you call it a downloadfrom the Lord saying, do this,
go to this place.
God is sending you out to here.
Um, Acts chapter 13.
(16:13):
So those are the things that Isee as far as what are the
purposes of prophecy.
And you'll notice that all ofthem are about strengthening the
body and for the purposes ofGod.
So it's not about, not that Godcan't speak to our individual
lives and the various thingsthat are going on in our lives.
Of course he can't.
Of course he wants to.
(16:34):
But I think overarching thegift of prophecy is for the
body, for the encouragement andstrengthening of the body, for
us together to know what God issaying and where to go.
Um, yeah, so that's what that'swhat I would say as far as what
what the scriptural purpose ofprophecy is, and you can add to
that.
Mark (16:56):
Wow.
So uh boy, there's so manythings that we could talk about.
Um in the shortness of ourtime, though.
Uh just very quickly, uh just Iguess to summarize what you
just said, at a time like this,the time that we find ourselves
in, maybe it's good for us to goback to the Bible and to review
what the Bible says about thisrather than just listen to yet
(17:18):
again another podcast like we'redoing this morning.
Um or or the opinions of men isreally um uh the hearsay and
the, you know, the sometimes thethe comments that are fueled by
hurt, you know, which aregenuine, the the feelings are
genuine, maybe the commentsaren't correct.
But so so we really need to goback and say what does the
(17:41):
scripture say about this?
But uh in what you said is alsokind of uh some of the founding
issues of or the dynamics ofwhat's going on here, and that
is that we can have the TenCommandments, let's say, and we
can read them out and we canstudy them, but then we go and
(18:04):
live our lives either accordingto or not according to.
Pete (18:08):
Right.
Mark (18:08):
So you can have a church that teaches all about the
prophetic, all about theapostolic, and you know, but how
they operate in the gifts ofthe spirit and how they use them
for their own benefit candiffer from the teaching itself.
Pete (18:23):
That's right.
Mark (18:24):
And uh therein lies the problem.
Uh one of the things I see, andwe I want to get back to some
of your other points about goingforward with this from a
biblical um point of view.
There's something in this aboutbecoming a celebrity.
Speaker (18:39):
Yes.
Mark (18:40):
You know, there's something about becoming famous,
there's something about theseguys who operate in these things
where they draw thousands ofhundreds, if not thousands, of
people to themselves.
But at the end of the day,you're not thinking about the
people who are sitting in thecongregation.
You're thinking about that thatparticular person.
Is there any uh any thoughtsabout that with regard to going
(19:02):
forward?
I mean, we can't stop that fromhappening.
I guess that has to do with theheart of each individual.
Pete (19:08):
That does have to do with the heart of each individual,
but I think you're hitting onsomething that has infiltrated
into specifically thecharismatic movement that I
think needs to be called out.
Or at least it needs to bediscussed, like it needs to be
okay.
If this is what you believe,then let's talk about how this
has worked out and how we canchange it.
Um, kind of how I sum it up withhow things can go sideways is
(19:31):
the three M's, which is money,manipulation, and man of God
culture.
So money manipulation and manof God culture.
So man of God culture is thewhole idea that you know touch
not the Lord's anointed.
Mark (19:46):
So okay.
Pete (19:49):
So that person is kind of above the fray.
The gift the gifts of God arenever revoked that kind of
teaching.
Now we understand that there'sa certain truth there.
Okay, correct.
Like always, there's a certaintruth there.
And if we're talking abouthonoring leadership, that's one
thing, and that's a good thing,and we should honor leadership.
And the scriptures tell us tovery pointedly in the New
(20:11):
Testament to do so.
I agree.
Um, but if you're speakingabout a culture of a leader
being a Moses-like figure thatcannot be opposed, I can't see
how that can ever go well.
And how that aligns with theNew Testament teachings of what
a leader should be, uh, it seemsto be the opposites, right?
Because a leader within thechurch is supposed to be the
(20:33):
greatest servant, laying theirlife down for the sheep, just
like the grand shepherd, okay?
The shepherd above all of us.
And so if a man of God cultureplaces the leader above the
sheep, where he cannot be everuh corrected, then that's just
plain wrong.
(20:54):
And it creates a culture ofwhich people start covering
things up.
So it creates cover-up culturewhere you can't ever say
anything against the leader.
And if he he does somethingwrong, then we need to cover it
up, we need to hide it, andmaybe do something behind the
scenes but never make it public.
When a lot of times thesethings are are like public sins,
(21:15):
even.
So I think that that culturewithin the charismatic movement
has to be confronted andchanged, or else these things
will continue to happen.
That's my opinion.
Because it will just allow forabuse.
Because if you have one personin and who is refusing
accountability, when you look atthe New Testament model of the
(21:37):
church, it's it's a plurality ofelders.
Right.
And I know that this isn'talways within the local church,
but I think you have to takethat principle even into the
parachurch organizations, again,in my opinion.
Mark (21:51):
Right.
People who are surroundedsurrounded by people, but yet uh
are accountable to none.
It will always end up being uha time bomb, a ticking time
bomb.
And and everybody isvulnerable, not just the leader,
by allowing him or herself tobe put in that situation, but
(22:13):
all ultimately the people too.
Pete (22:15):
Correct.
And that's I don't want tothrow anybody in the under the
bus on that sort of thing whenif you've been hurt by a leader
to then blame you and say, hey,you really need to just go back
to the Bible and yes, that'strue.
But first of all, toacknowledge that people are
really hurt, you know, they'rereally hurt, they've been hurt
by what has happened.
Mark (22:35):
And so important.
Pete (22:36):
Yeah, and that's that's we recognize that and don't and
don't belittle that and knowthat it takes time to come back
into the fold, but just to say,don't give up on the Lord
because of what his servant did,um, which I know is is an
(22:57):
elementary principle, but all ofus need to be reminded,
especially when we're hurt.
Because how many stories haveyou heard where, you know, even
on a local church level, wherewhere an elder or elders do
something wrong and people getoffended and they they never
come back to church after that.
They just they do me and Jesus.
Mark (23:15):
Right.
They give up on God in a sense,but thinking that they haven't,
but reality is that they havebecause it's more than it's more
than just that.
Pete (23:26):
You can't be outside of the body, and people will say,
well, I can do my Jesus and mething in the forest.
No, you can't actually.
You you can in a sense that youstill have a relationship with
God, but the scriptures tell usthat we should not forsake the
gathering for a reason.
That's for you.
It's not just, you know, as faras a theological thing.
(23:48):
That's for you to be healthy,and that's for you to give what
you have to the body.
Mark (23:57):
I might just say at this point that uh, again, for our
listeners, that these are very,very serious issues, and they
are not easily solved.
In uh we are not trying today,quickly trying to say this is an
easy solve and just do this,this, and this, and it's all
fixed, or that one person'sright, one person's wrong, or if
(24:19):
these people get their heartright, then everything will be
fine.
This is this is an ongoing,it's not so much something that
you can resolve by justimplementing a particular rule
or a regulation.
This is all of this that we'retalking about has to do with the
heart.
Um, it has to do with the heartthat seeks ambition, seeks to
(24:42):
take the center andintentionally or unintentionally
and displace Jesus off of histhrone.
It also involves the heart ofthe people who want a king so
they can be like all the othernations.
Yep.
Um they they, you know, apeople who want somebody to be a
celebrity leader, but are quickto uh chop off that leader's
(25:05):
head when the leader is, youknow, it's discovered that they
have feet of clay.
Again, not making, not takingsides on this or or at all um
suggesting that it's oneperson's fault or nor uh and not
looking for excuses, but thechallenge for us today is to
(25:25):
love Jesus, to be open to thethings of God, the the things
that God has given us, to lovehis church, and to come back to
that place of saying, how how dowe find that balance between
honoring leadership, acceptingtheir guidance, and um but at
the same time seeing thatthere's a biblical basis for
(25:49):
accountability so we don't letthe enemy rob us of all the
wonderful things that God hasgiven us.
Pete (25:58):
Absolutely.
And I think that that's whatyou hit it on the nail on the
head there, as far as you know,people have ideas of of things.
Like they they knowtheologically what they should
do, and they will even have adoctrinal statement or they will
have a, you know, this is theguidance for how to use
prophecy, and they'll be goodguidance.
(26:19):
They just don't do itthemselves.
Or the leadership doesn'toperate in the way that's
written in their own manual orwhatever it is.
So it really does come down toin the secret place and in your
own quiet place in your heart,why are you doing what you're
doing?
And that's the whole teachingsof Jesus through the Sermon on
the Mount, all the way through.
What is the intention of theheart behind why we not just
(26:42):
what we do, but why we do it isjust or more important that the
seed bed of sin is that tinything.
I'm angry with my brother, ismurder.
When that seed is planted, thatseed becomes murder.
Okay, that's a that's anincredible teaching if you think
about it.
But we were seeing thathappening.
(27:04):
Hatred in its smallest form,when it is birthed completely,
is murder.
And lust, when it is birthedcompletely, is adultery in the
end.
And so these little hearts,these little foxes, as they say,
that get into the vineyard iswhat we're not looking at, is
what we should be looking at.
(27:25):
We're looking at the big thingswhen in actuality it's started
in those small little thingsthat build into strongholds in
our lives that are unseen byanyone, and maybe even to
ourselves, right?
We're we're blinded because theenemy has blinded us to it,
that that little seed of hatredor that little seed of lust has
gotten in and is built up overthe years unchecked.
(27:49):
That I think is the core of thenwhere we end up, not only in
the prophetic movement, but allof us.
When we uh we don't just fallinto sin.
And I don't even oftentimeslike to use that term, although
we can.
Um, but most of the time it's asteady building, and then
(28:09):
there's the fall.
So
Mark (28:11):
That's good.
Pete (28:12):
That's why you know, getting back to a focus on
Christ Himself, and alsosanctification, becoming more
like Christ daily is some ofthat needs to be a central
teaching in the church.
And I know it's like, duh, butsanctification, becoming more
like Christ, and an expectationof that, and and an expectation
(28:35):
of holiness, knowing that we'regoing to fail in that.
But there's an expectation ofholiness for all of us, not just
for the leadership, but everysingle one of us.
The guy on the soundboard atthe church has the same
expectation of holiness as theleader, even though he's held to
an even higher standard becausehe's teaching it.
It's coming out of his mouth.
(28:56):
He's held to an even higherstandard, but the guy who's
running the soundboard, he'sheld to a high standard too, you
know.
So that's for that's foreverybody.
That's a universal principle ofthe church.
Mark (29:13):
Before we hit the record button today, we were talking
about the prophetic movement,and and you used a phrase, uh,
you said that uh God has blownup the prophetic movement, uh, a
very powerful, um, conjured upa very powerful picture for me.
Uh but you went on to say thatuh that was because that he was
(29:36):
no longer the center.
And I know that's somethingthat's really on your heart uh
about lifting up Jesus and forhim being the center.
Um how do you see I have acouple of questions about this.
First of all, when we say thatGod has blown up the prophetic
movement, I actually number I Iactually believe that, but
(29:57):
that's not you know, that's not.
That's God doing something.
Like he has broken his silence,and he has not made this
happen, but he's decided to,however, he does that, and I'll
leave that to other people tobring up a teach on that
biblically and then wrap that ina theology.
(30:18):
But basically, God breaks hissilence and he moves in times
and space in our lives.
And so I believe this hashappened.
But but what's going on here inyour understanding?
Pete (30:30):
I think it goes back to what we just spoke about, about
the inner heart of man.
And, you know, they will cometo me on that day and say, Lord,
Lord, did we not do A, B, andC?
And he will say to them, Inever knew you.
Now, I'm not making the pointthat these people don't know the
Lord, but the point is, what isthe heart condition of why we
do what we do?
And I think what happened inthe prophetic is the heart
(30:52):
condition went off of Christbecoming more like Christ, the
testimony of Jesus, thetestimony of Jesus to us, the
testimony of Jesus to theoutside world, the testimony of
Jesus, period.
Didn't get completely lostbecause you can't make that
statement.
There are lots of people withinthe charismatic movement who
love the Lord, who serve theLord.
(31:13):
That's most people who want tosee the testimony of Jesus go
out, but we need to stand backand say something dramatic has
happened and God has been theauthor of it.
There's a kairos moment rightnow of the Lord saying, the way
that this has been done, I don'twant it done this way anymore.
We're done with this thing.
(31:33):
And I think part of it is theprophetic movement being about
self-focus, self-aggrandizement,my calling, etc.
And it almost becoming what theaccusation of the world has
been towards the propheticmovement and of conservative
Christians towards the propheticmovement, which is it's just
like fortune telling, which itisn't, it shouldn't be, but it
(31:59):
can become that.
Where people are coming intomeetings to get a word of the
Lord.
And, you know, I I love gettinga word from the Lord.
I love hearing the voice ofGod, and I want more of that.
But what what I think cameabout was people were coming in
with a with a idea in their headof not, I'm coming here to
(32:19):
worship the Lord, I'm cominghere to serve, I'm coming, you
know, those sorts of things.
To I'm coming here to get theword of the Lord for my personal
whatever, whatever it is.
And that that might be a uh youknow, a third or a fourth thing
you might have on the list ofyou know what might happen in a
meeting like that.
But it's like stand up on thefront and we're gonna call
(32:40):
people out, and it just becomesabout us in a lot of ways.
Mark (32:44):
Um it has become that.
Pete (32:46):
Yeah.
Mark (32:47):
It has, it's, it has become that.
Pete (32:50):
And if you look at the New Testament and you you look at
what Paul is talking about theprophetic being used for
learning and encouragement, thatthat that seems to be a but
we're learning from each otherand what the Lord is speaking to
other people.
It's not just about us, it'sabout what God is doing in his
church, it's about what God isdoing in your local fellowship,
(33:10):
what he's doing in your family,etc.
Again, not that God can't everspeak to individual things, and
he does,
Mark (33:16):
...and he does,
Pete (33:17):
but that it has become too much self-focused and not
focused on Christ Himself.
And so and there's been hurtwithin it, and people have been
getting hurt, and the shepherddoes not like that.
Not only does that pain hisheart, he hates it.
He hates it when his sheep areabused, he hates it when his
(33:40):
sheep are manipulated, he hatesit when his sheep are taken
advantage of.
And some people out there mightbe wondering, well, why did God
wait until now?
We don't have the answer tothat question, but we know then
the time is now.
God is unveiling.
This is a moment of unveilingsin.
It's a moment of unveilingabuse, and that's it's a
(34:02):
terribly difficult time for somany people.
But what it can be also is thatmoment where if a person has put
their hope unwillingly orunwittingly upon a man or a
woman, they can now turn thathope back upon Christ Himself.
And I know that sounds verytrite.
It is not trite.
That is exactly what ishappening, it's exactly what God
(34:26):
wants, and that is the point.
Mark (34:37):
That's the end of part one of my conversation with Pete
Mahoney.
Thanks for listening.
The second part of this episodewill be posted soon, so stay
tuned.
The easiest way of making sureyou don't miss any of our shows
is by clicking on the subscribelink provided, and we will let
you know every time there is anew episode.
(34:58):
You can find all the notes andlinks for today's show at our
website, www.kingdomadvanceministries.com / podcasts.
Bye for now, and may God bless.
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