March 27, 2024 • 54 mins
One of our most requested topics is about open relationships. There just seems to be so much interest not only from listeners that ARE open, but also from monogamous people simply interested in what these relationships look like.
This week we are joined by Fox Eros AMFT, “The Polyamory Therapist” to discuss all things polyamory. The why, the how, and the what surrounding it all.
About Fox:
Fox Eros (M.A., AMFT), known as "The Polyamory Therapist” has earned a reputation as an incandescent, deeply empathetic and passion filled Psychotherapist, Writer and Speaker. She has a Master’s Degree in Marriage Family Therapy and specializes in Sex Therapy and Consensual Non-Monogamous Relationships. She is currently at work on her first book about polyamory and is a contributing writer and educator in the polyamory field. Fox continues to be sought out to help individuals and people in relationships with life stress, self-worth, impacts of trauma, sex and intimacy related topics.
Fox identifies as a pansexual, panromantic, polyamorous, multi-racial, Black Girl Magic, BIPOC femme person; and lives on the land of the Chumash and Gabrielino-Tongva peoples. Her pleasures include being a Lover, being loved, forest bathing, sun dancing, dreaming in chocolate and crushing on the fantasticalness of it all. Also, rainbows.
Want to know more? You can get to know Fox through these links
Instagram
https://www.foxerosinlove.com/
TikTok
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Casey (00:00):
To another episode of come with your day.
(00:02):
We have with us joining you withus, one of our good friends who
we will introduce in just asecond.
But in the meantime, we wantedto introduce what the topic of
this show is about today.
We cover things all the time.
We cover kink, we cover BDSM, wecover relationships and, and
communication and all sorts oftopics.
But one of the most Largelyasked questions we get from our
audience almost more thananything.
(00:23):
We learn
Kari (00:24):
more than anything.
What
Casey (00:26):
do I do if we want to open a relationship?
And so in order to give people abetter view of this landscape,
what that's like, we've broughton our friend Fox.
Fox, how are you doing?
Kari (00:40):
Hi, I'm Fox Eros hi, friends.
We're like sexual healthalliance friends, aren't we?
Casey (00:47):
We are.
We are.
Yes, we
Kari (00:48):
are.
Casey (00:49):
That's what, I started in sexual health alliance, Carrie's
now with sexual health.
Fox (00:55):
Yeah, it's our own little like sex positive tribe.
I love that.
I love that y'all are doing yourpodcast and you're still doing
it.
So amazing.
There you are.
Man.
I'm not mad.
Kari (01:10):
So he's gonna go off really fast and try and see what
is going on with our Wi Fi.
Yeah, no problem.
Maybe,
Fox (01:16):
yeah, maybe restarting it.
I know it's so funny because I'mlike this and I'm like hoping
you know that, yeah, okay.
You know what I mean.
Kari (01:24):
Okay.
Totally fine.
How long have you been with SHA?
Fox (01:29):
Sorry, say it again?
How long have you been with SHA?
Well, gosh, I graduated from thesex therapy program, I think,
last year.
But I did it at the same time asI was in my master's program to
be an, you know, marriage familytherapist.
I'm an associate marriage familytherapist.
Now I have to, I'm supposed tosay that I'm an associate, but
(01:50):
yeah, I did it at the same time.
It was stressful because I wasdoing so much, but I was, I, I
would do it again.
It was so informative.
I needed, especially in like sexissues and psychotherapy.
It's so detailed and nuanced andcomplex that I felt like I
really needed like a lot ofinformation.
So now when I'm with my clients,I have so many, if I don't know
(02:12):
the answer, I have theresources.
And then if I do know theanswers, I feel really competent
and confident.
Do you, what do you use yoursexual health alliance for?
Kari (02:20):
So I'm in the coaching program.
Oh.
Dr.
Lay had been working veryclosely with me.
And, and it was actually themwho.
Recommended me actually goingmore into the coaching program.
After meeting with them a fewtimes they read me like a book
and they were like, you don'tnecessarily seem like someone
(02:43):
who wants to like dive into likethe emotions, but you're
probably better suited at likegiving really good advice,
giving good advice.
I love that.
And so it just kind of turnedinto this like beautiful concept
that like Casey was going to gointo the counseling.
I was going to go into thecoaching and then we're going to
be able to come together and,and really help people.
(03:04):
And that was, that was been ourgoal.
That's been our goal this entiretime.
Casey (03:07):
I'm back.
Kari (03:10):
Well, Batman.
Fox (03:12):
He was like, Oh, I don't know.
Are we using all this?
Are you going to like, I thinkwe might,
Kari (03:18):
I think we can find little bits of it.
It's cute.
Yeah,
Fox (03:20):
because y'all have such, let's let's use this.
Y'all have the most pleasant,like loving voices, very sexy
podcast voice.
Casey (03:30):
Oh, thank you very much.
Yeah,
Fox (03:31):
that's, that's like 90 percent of why I listen to a
podcast is if I resonate andalign with the voice, it's like
slightly arousing and veryinformative.
And y'all have that.
Kari (03:41):
Good job.
I'm arousing and informative,baby.
We.
We.
Oh I'm not.
Yeah, we.
Hello.
She did say
Casey (03:48):
we.
Oh, okay.
You know, we're gonna, we'regonna use, we're probably gonna
use all of this, actually.
Kari (03:53):
That's our new tagline.
That's our new tagline.
We are arousing and informative.
Yes, that's your tagline.
You have to use the Batman part.
Yeah,
but I am not Robin.
Damn it.
I'm like poison.
I'm your own superhero.
You're not, I'm my own entity.
No, I'm poison.
I'd be.
(04:14):
All right.
Casey (04:18):
So back, back on topic.
Now that we've sorted throughour technical difficulties, Fox,
we are super excited to have youon the show to talk all about
polyamory.
If we understand correctly,Okay.
You are an inclusive andinformative affirmative.
Oh my
Fox (04:32):
God,
Casey (04:32):
I'm just dropping balls.
Fox (04:34):
No, you're
good.
Casey (04:34):
Inclusive and affirmative therapists for individuals and
intimate relationships, correct?
Fox (04:38):
Yes.
Casey (04:39):
Okay.
So tell us a little bit aboutyourself and what it is you do.
Fox (04:42):
Okay.
First of all, I always like toacknowledge the land that I'm on
of the Chumash native firstpeoples.
And so, yes, I'm an associatemarriage therapist.
associate marriage and familytherapist.
And that means that I just workwith people to kind of navigate
like trauma and emotions wherethey're stuck life stress.
And it's kind of been my callingto work with people in
(05:05):
polyamorous relationships andalso Cause you know, we're all
from the sexual health alliance.
That's where we all studied.
So I'm also certified in that.
And I worked with Dr.
Eli chef.
I don't know if you know her, Ilove her, but she's done
research in polyamory for likedecades and she worked, she's
written a book.
So I studied with her and nowI'm just, I call myself the
(05:27):
polyamory therapist.
That's I'm on all the socialmedias as that.
And it's like, it's like my lifecalling.
I don't know what it is, butit's like, It just turns me on
spiritually and in every otherway to work with this population
and then to talk about it.
I think it's because it'sradicalizing love.
And it's going back to how weused to be.
Like, indigenous people werealready doing this.
(05:47):
Like, monogamy is not theoriginal or the new.
Hello.
We are returning back to a newway of relating and loving.
I
Casey (05:56):
love that.
Whenever we look back into a lotof the history, one of the
things I do the most is readinga lot of research and we look at
books like it was like sex, aworld history.
And we talk about howrelationships used to look way
back when.
And it was never.
No, this one thing of monogamyis the only way and you're in
this box and that's all you get.
There's been a Relationship ofstyles have shifted and changed
(06:19):
and flowed over over centuriesWithin within humanity.
So to see this what I what we'reseeing at least this resurgence
of polyamory is, has been reallycool.
We know it's been there, butpeople are starting to feel
more, yeah, people are startingto feel more comfortable
discussing it.
And so I think that's where alot of this has come from is a
(06:41):
lot of the people online are nowgoing, well, wait a minute.
I've always been told thatthat's an option.
Kari (06:45):
Yeah,
no, you don't even know.
Fox (06:47):
You don't even realize that our monogamous mindset and
upbringing has completelyinfluenced us.
When I learned that it's likepart of colonization and
Christianity, that's themonogamy thing.
And it was this.
assimilating indigenous peopleand taking away the kind of love
that they had.
Like now it's all aboutdecolonizing love.
Yes.
What did we used to do?
And you know, as our financialclimate changes, I believe
(07:09):
people will begin relating indifferent ways.
And these younger generations,they're just like, Fuck you
marriage, but I also like I'mnot shaming monogamy because
I've done monogamy most of mylife But I've oh my orientations
all always been polyamorous ButI never knew the name for it and
I always felt shamed anddifferent and yeah, just
something was wrong But now thatI know the name i'm like fuck.
(07:31):
Yeah, i'm so polyamorous.
My lifestyle is monogamous butI'm not here to shame monogamy.
And I always like to say thatbecause that's if, if people
shame polyamory, I'm not goingto shame back.
Like, I'm right.
Absolutely.
Casey (07:44):
Right.
We, we talk about it similarlyin the kink scene, whenever it's
like, we don't shame, you know,people that want and love being
vanilla.
Yeah,
I think it was, it was late David Elliot that it was
on.
That was like vanilla is still agreat flavor of ice cream.
Oh,
Fox (07:57):
I like chocolate better.
Just kidding.
Casey (08:00):
So she made it really well for us there.
So, yeah, exactly.
Hear what you're saying.
Entirely.
So it's really cool to see usgetting these questions from
people that are like, wait,wait, wait a minute.
And then we sift through thedifferent questions because when
we're going to get to this in alittle bit about how people open
up and all that, and what themost common types of longterm
monogamous relationships looklike when they start to open up,
(08:24):
but let's, we get all, all thepitfalls and all the, all the
caveats and things like thatonce we get there, but for now
let's start off this whole thingby asking the simple question
of.
Why do people go from monogamousor monogamous?
Why do they start to open up inthe first place?
What are some things that youthink influence that curiosity?
Fox (08:46):
Yeah, I think that it's becoming more mainstream.
So they're realizing it as anoption.
Some people feel like they'venever been good at monogamy and
they've had a lot of struggleswith infidelity.
And they're like, Oh my God,there's another option.
Like I find it hard to love oneperson.
I've always loved many peopleand then I have to shame it and
hide it.
And then I fuck up.
Some people just want more ofeverything, more intimacy,
(09:07):
intimacy, more love, more selfexpansion and self growth
because when you're polyamorous,You are expanding your
relational skills because it'snot just about fucking
Oftentimes there's thisemotional component in this
romantic component in thisreally connecting relational
component So you are likeexpanding your fucking
relational relational skills somuch so you grow a lot in that
(09:31):
way It's so freeing like when Irealized I was polyamorous I was
like, I felt so alive in my souland turned on because I no
longer have to shut down thatpart of myself.
Just because I'm like marriedand what society looks at as
married.
I was like, okay, I'm married.
I'm only with this one person.
But once I was like, wait aminute, I'm called Amherst.
I was just like, my eyes opened,my nervous system opened up.
(09:53):
Like, do you ever feel that waythat you start to feel like, Oh
wait, I don't even know howy'all identify.
Okay.
Wait, sorry.
Kari (10:04):
We're, we're MAGA monogamist.
Casey (10:05):
Yeah.
It's on the ish side.
So we, we tend to, I gotta
Fox (10:11):
say what you are comfortable saying.
No, no,
Casey (10:13):
we're completely, we've, we've shared everything on the
internet.
Yeah.
We're already all over theplace.
Everyone already knows.
Oh, we, we tend to fluctuate.
There's times depending.
So we, this, this is, it's goingto sound hierarchical, but, and
we're okay with that, honestly.
It's depending on where our corerelationship is typically
dictates On if we open up alittle bit more or not, you
Kari (10:36):
know, even if we have the time, sometimes it's a, it's a
time management thing, you know,we both know.
And like, right now we areconsidering ourselves closed and
that's because we have a lot ofthings that we're juggling.
And.
When we don't have the time to,or when it starts to put a
strain on us, that is when wemake the decision to go ahead
(10:57):
and, and close, but we've beenopen for the last like few years
of our relationship.
And
Casey (11:03):
five or so.
Kari (11:04):
Yeah.
And, and so it's definitelybrought a lot of amazing
opportunities to us.
It's, it allowed us tocommunicate more.
It's allowed us to learn a lotabout one another individually
and who we are together.
Yeah.
We
Casey (11:17):
do a lot of discussion around the boundaries around
that.
Clearly we don't ever want tohurt anybody outside of a
relationship.
So we make rules.
It's like if we're not engagingin a, in a relationship
currently, then we can talk,then we talk about opening or
closing.
We try to steer away from beinglike, if we're already in a, in
a relationship on some level,then we, we try to respect that
(11:39):
enough to be like, all right,now we don't talk about opening
or closing.
Okay.
But once we're, once everythingis just us, then we'll close it
down.
Fox (11:47):
Yeah.
I think that's like a beautifuland ethical way.
And I know that was one ofy'all's questions is like this
new sensationalized conversationabout it's unethical to be like
have couples privilege.
I think that was one of thequestions we were going to go
over.
And I'm just like, if you aredoing it with compassion and
transparency and kindness, youare being polyamorous and you
are ethical.
How are you going to marginalizean already marginalized
(12:09):
community and start pulling allthese rules?
Like if y'all are invested ineach other and you've known each
other longer and that's safe andsecure and you want to open up
and you meet someone and yousay, Hey, just so you know,
we're, this is our powerdynamic.
And they can ask questions.
They can say, well, like, couldI ever live with you?
What if I wanted to have a babywith you?
Like, how do you make decisions?
(12:29):
If you're transparent with them,they might say, okay, cool.
I want that.
Or no, I don't want that.
And then that's ethical.
Kari (12:35):
Like,
Fox (12:36):
yeah.
Like live your, live your
Kari (12:38):
love, right?
There's
Casey (12:40):
low difference in that between.
And in the same is in the samesense as talking with somebody
that you are looking to sayyou're monogamous and you're
looking at the dating scene,you're sitting down with someone
and saying, what are your lifegoals look like?
What did you want to have kids?
What are your career?
Kari (12:56):
It's the same thing.
It's the same
Casey (12:57):
thing.
We're just having a slightlylarger dynamic here, which can
be a difficult thing tonavigate, but it can be so
rewarding.
Fox (13:05):
Yeah, and I like sometimes unicorns are exploited and I've
been a unicorn and I loved itwas one of my favorite loving
Experiences of my life, but noteveryone has a good experience
So I get that too, but I didn'twant to be like a full time
married person with them I likedmy role and I understood it and
there was respect and love butother people would be like no
(13:25):
way I don't want to be yourunicorn and like feel used for
the night like it is like get itHave a transaction with a sex
worker.
Casey (13:35):
That's our top, our top piece of advice because we have
a number of monogamous friendswho have been married and
they're like, you know, we'rethinking about bringing a third
in
Kari (13:44):
and our
Casey (13:44):
first thing is like, To what purpose?
Yes.
Don't, don't bring them inbecause it's fulfilling some
fantasy that you and your wifehave.
That's not, if you want to dothat, sure.
If you want to have anexperience that's purely sexual
and it's something to fulfill afantasy within your
relationship, hire a sex worker.
Fox (14:06):
Yeah, exactly.
I only want sex and see ifthey're like, yeah, me too.
Perfect.
Yeah.
Casey (14:12):
Are you here for a casual relationship?
Are you here for just sex?
That is consensual amongst allparties involved.
Go for it.
And if you have to deal withemotions after the fact, do it
in a way that can, that can getyou out on the other side and a
good, and a good light and notsomething where you're falling
apart afterwards.
Fox (14:30):
Yeah.
Well, the tragedy of fallingapart afterwards.
That's real.
Casey (14:35):
I
Fox (14:35):
didn't mean to laugh there.
Nervous laughter.
I was like, Oh my God, trauma.
Casey (14:40):
We'll get along just fine.
I've, I've, I do that quite abit.
He does nervous nervous.
Yes.
I laugh at some of the mostserious things because it's
just,
Fox (14:48):
it's a release though.
Your nervous system is trying toreset.
Casey (14:50):
Exactly.
So, so we talked a little bitabout like reasons why couples
open up and this may be becausethey do realize their capacity
for relationships does lieoutside of, of a single partner.
They may be so close and sotrusting and so comfortable with
their partner that they findthemselves able to handle these
other relationships.
Fox (15:11):
Yeah.
They have different needs thatcan be met by other people.
Like maybe you're kinky and youreally want to go to sex parties
and your partner's like, Oh, I'mnot interested.
Go get your needs met.
Be safe.
Do your thing.
Yeah.
Casey (15:21):
Yeah.
And I'm sure that can be a roughconversation to navigate.
I know.
Fox (15:25):
Yeah.
And you know, relying on oneperson for everything is really
difficult.
Like we don't do that withfriendships.
We don't do that at work.
Why are we doing it withromance, intimacy, and sex?
It's a lot of pressure to beeverything to one person.
Casey (15:38):
Yeah.
And that can lead to a lot ofsexual problems that can lead to
a lot of relationship problems.
And so the, the ability toengage in something like that in
a safe and consensual manner isimportant.
Fox (15:48):
Yeah.
Consenting adults.
Yeah.
We're not promoting likeinfidelity.
We're saying if you are, I thinkconsent is everybody wants to,
everybody knows about it andeverybody agrees.
Casey (15:58):
Yes.
That's
Fox (15:59):
why it's exciting.
Casey (16:00):
Yeah.
It's that if it's not a fuckyes, then it's a no.
Fox (16:03):
Yeah.
It's not a hell yes.
Exactly.
And by the way, like I can keep,I'll just keep talking.
So bring me back to the questionif you'd like, because I'll
just, I don't, I'm in space.
I have no idea where I
Casey (16:15):
am.
Not a problem at all.
Not a problem at all.
So then let's, let's shift alittle bit.
If we looked at reasons whycouples do open up, whether it
to be any of the things wediscussed, what are some reasons
that you tell people, Hey, It'snot a good idea, or maybe it's
not the best fit for you to openup.
Fox (16:31):
Yeah, they're starting to, yeah, I think if there's any
element of abuse, so we callthat domestic abuse or intimate
partner violence.
So if any of that is going on, Iwould say, please don't open up
right now.
Cause it, Opening up is it'scomplex and it can exasperate
current problems.
And if you're already not safe,it's gonna, it could make things
(16:53):
worse.
And I just want to say for thepurposes of this, if anyone's
listening and they feel thatharm or anything, you can go to
the hotline.
org that's a website for help.
If you feel safe to get thathelp, or you can text 8, 8, 7,
8, 8, just for anyone listening.
So if you don't feel safe Iwouldn't open up if you are
feeling co horsed, manipulated,like it's an ultimatum or
(17:15):
pressure.
That's not a hell yes.
Like,
it's like, take a pause cause one person might be
pushing it and the otherperson's like, I'm not sure.
Those relationships end up beingreally complex and like not
sustainable.
Yeah.
A lot of times.
Casey (17:27):
Yeah, you have, you have that one partner.
That's like, I really want this.
I want to go for it.
And the other partner is
leans
into it simply because they're afraid that they're
going to lose their partner ifthey don't say yes.
Or that if they don't say yes,then it's going to lead to the
other partner, a case ofinfidelity or, or something
along those lines.
Fox (17:45):
Yeah.
And, and that happens a lot.
So just slow it down and try togo at a similar pace.
That's a deep question though,cause I see a lot of that other
reasons to pause.
If there's past like traumawounds or like trust ruptures
between you and your partner,excuse me, and I'm assuming this
is opening up from an alreadyestablished relationship, then
(18:06):
maybe work a little bit on thattrust and safety and security,
because those are like thepillars, that's what Jessica
Fern talks about when thosepillars are strong, you can
navigate polyamory a little bitbetter.
Mm hmm.
And I'm thinking of what other reasons to slow down.
I mean, to pause.
If you think polyamory is justlike a 24 seven fuck fest orgy,
(18:28):
which is awesome.
But polyamory is the oneconsensual non monogamy under
the ethical non monogamyumbrella that includes romance
and intimacy and connection anda lot of fucking communication.
Okay, I'm really bad at jokes,but I'm going to try to do a
joke right now.
You can edit it out.
It's not good.
What did the monogamous person?
(18:49):
Okay.
So let me start over.
See, I already fucked it up.
Like, please don't do any jokeson the podcast.
I'm like, I'm not gonna.
Okay.
20 minutes in go.
Yeah.
Okay.
Wait.
Okay.
The monogamous person said tothe polyamorous person, God,
you're polyamorous.
That's amazing.
You must have sex all the time.
And the polyamorous person said,no, I'm too busy communicating.
(19:11):
So that's a very polyamorousjoke.
It's not that funny, butpolyamorous people are talking
all the time about theirfeelings and time management and
what's happening.
So if you think you're justgoing to be fucking all the
time, can I say fuck on here?
Casey (19:24):
Yeah.
Yeah, you can.
Fox (19:25):
Okay, fuck.
That might be a misconception.
And maybe just, yeah, it's,maybe you want to do swinging.
Maybe you want to do like anopen relationship or something
different, but yeah, I thinkthat's, that's all I can think
of right now.
Why people Maybe slow it down.
Casey (19:43):
Yeah.
I think that a lot of peopleneed a good look at the actual
umbrella that, that falls a lotof this into, because they don't
understand that there's adifference between polyamory and
swinging and all, I mean,there's, there's so many sub
genres to having multiplepartners.
If there's, there's a lot.
Fox (20:04):
true.
You bring up a great point.
Not everyone understands thenuances of each defined thing.
Casey (20:10):
Exactly.
And so they sit back and they'rein this longterm relationship
and like, all right, well, we'regoing to go out and you can have
one partner thinking that this,this experience is going to be
in one way.
And I don't want to put like,Gender stereotypes on anybody or
anything like that.
However, What we usually see iswe see a male in the
relationship who is verycentered around the sexual
(20:31):
gratification of multiplepartners and we see the wife in
the relationship who is verycentered around the emotional
connection and Sex is kind oflike the bonus for it.
Like I also get to fuck thisperson.
Fox (20:42):
Yes, and then you know what I see
Casey (20:45):
What's that?
Fox (20:46):
I'm like, I wanted to build anticipation.
Then I see a clip where the,like the cis male, like in this,
like, maybe cis male, cis femaleconfiguration, he doesn't get
the amount of dates or theamount of sex he thought he
would.
And his partner begins to, andis dating more often and maybe
(21:06):
being more sexual.
Or there's a threesome and hedoesn't feel included the way he
thought he would be or the twoThe female and the other person
maybe start to have feelings.
Yeah
So, I mean we got to talk about expectations and
boundaries and agreements beforewe jump into this because so
much changes Oh, it'sheartbreaking when we just it's
(21:27):
like Going, what is it calledwhen you jump from an airplane?
Is that parachuting?
Kari (21:31):
Skydiving?
Fox (21:32):
It's like skydiving and not even looking at the f cking
safety protocol.
Kari (21:36):
Yeah.
Fox (21:36):
That's what getting into polyamory without talking first
about weight, like, in depthabout it is because people get
really hurt.
Or you can have a fucking greattime because you're kind of
like, okay, safety,communication, transparency.
Casey (21:49):
Let's talk about our boundaries.
Let's talk about ourexpectations, but that's such a
big thing that we can, that wecan discuss is what your initial
perception is of the types ofrelationships you're getting
into.
So if, and I love that you,you've been in this
hypothetical, we've clarifiedthat we, yes, we are talking in
this instance about a cis heteromale and possibly like, Let's go
(22:11):
with our case cis, cis gendered,heterosexual male and a cis
gendered, bisexual female.
Fox (22:17):
What's up?
Hey, I'm pansexual.
You're bisexual.
We're friends.
Casey (22:24):
Let's do this.
And so it's important for usthat one of the things that we
were doing or that we learned toover time was figuring out what
our ideas are in the firstplace.
What do you think this is goingto be?
What do you want out of this?
How, how to what extent can thisgo?
And we, we fucked up a lot inthe
Kari (22:41):
past.
Yes.
Yep.
we fucked up.
All do.
Yeah.
A lot.
Casey (22:45):
And that's, that's part of it.
And so for us is part of it.
It was,
Kari (22:48):
yeah.
For us it was
Casey (22:49):
coming back to that, that like core of saying, all right,
let's regroup.
Here's what happened, here's howthings went.
What can we do in the future tomake sure that doesn't happen?
So I think that we did what alot of couples do and just kind
of Did exactly that we wentskydiving.
Well without ever learning howto pull the cord but And I think
it came
Kari (23:09):
after me recently at the time coming out as bisexual I
knew it was who I was but Ididn't grow up feeling like I
had to talk about it I wasn'tashamed of it.
I just, yeah, I just didn't, Ijust didn't, I didn't care.
I liked who I liked.
I did what I did and I am who Iam.
Love that.
And, and so to like have thatneed to come out, I never did.
(23:33):
And then we kind of startedhaving these conversations a bit
more and I was like, oh yeah, bythe way, I'm totally bisexual
and.
And it was really cute and healready knew, you know what I
mean?
It wasn't a surprise to him.
But I do think that that's whatinitially like kick started it
was.
This is who I am.
(23:54):
You accept me for who I am.
But I, I would like the chanceto explore what that means.
And, and he was very open andunderstanding, but no, we, we
definitely didn't go About it inthe most like efficient way.
We thought that we found someonethat had gone through this
process before.
And so we thought that that wasour parachute.
(24:14):
They've done this.
They're our guide.
Let's let them take a good wayto learn to that.
I think that was a smart thingto think.
Yeah,
it can be,
it can be.
Yes.
And, and, and then you, you kindof hit the nail on the head,
emotions.
Kickstarted very deep emotionsgot kickstarted and, and on both
(24:36):
parties.
And so it was something that wehad to recognize and understand
within ourselves to be able tostep back and realize, okay, I
like this aspect, but maybe notthis aspect.
Mm.
No.
And so it, it, it did take uslike diving in a little bit more
to even understand what ourboundaries were.
(24:56):
And so
Casey (24:58):
yeah, I think we got caught.
We got caught up in theexperience of it first at the
time.
Sure.
Kari (25:02):
We did.
It was the worst.
We were like, hell yeah.
Fox (25:05):
so exciting to open up and discover your, and I think
that's why people rush in.
And Carrie, I just wanna saylike, I love your story of
coming out.
And I had a similar experienceof not naming it.
But think about it.
Straight people don't name it.
They just live it.
You were just living yourfucking life.
When I think I came out once inmy thirties, I was like, I'm
bisexual.
(25:26):
And everyone's like, yeah, weknow.
And I was like, okay.
And then the next day I forgotbecause my life was so filled
with trauma and survival that Ididn't.
I wasn't able to have theprivilege of being like, well,
for me it would've been aprivilege to have the freedom in
my mind to be like, yeah, I'mexploring this.
I just was focused on surviving.
And then now recently, I waslike, Mm-Hmm.
I think I'm like fluid and mypartner's like, I dunno.
(25:48):
And I was like, well on, onGoogle it says I'm fluid.
I, I was like, yeah.
Quiz.
And
Kari (25:54):
this is what it told Medcom.
Yeah,
Fox (25:58):
I love how everyone already knows we're open and they're,
yeah.
Like Casey's telling you, yeah,I already knew that.
And you're like, Oh, but it's sofun.
Some, some people love labelsand some don't.
It is so fun.
I enjoy labels right now andI'll, I get rid of them and use
them as I please.
But, oh man, I have so many, Ihave pansexual, panromantic,
auto sexual, sapiosexual, ecosexual, panromantic, I just love
(26:23):
labels.
Casey (26:25):
Well, that's what we, I mean, we had discussed
previously, we talked about the,how important the use of GSRD.
is whenever it comes to justhaving conversations with, with
potential dating partners oranything like that, we would
talk about normalizing asopposed to being like, you know,
I'm having a conversation, I'mfiguring it out if we click, but
how casually we can be like,Hey, if you don't mind sharing
(26:47):
with me, and we'll recap for anylistener that doesn't remember
this, but our GSR D.
Being our gender, our sexualityand our relationship diversity
to be
able to casually bring that in to be like, Hey, if you
don't mind me asking, like, whatis your GSRD?
And then be able to be like, Oh,in actuality here, let me lay it
all out on the, on the table foryou so we can figure out if we
(27:08):
click together.
And this is something thatthat'll work out well, or if
you're like, Oh, you know, I'm.
Partial to this or not that.
And it's just a really good wayto not make any assumptions
about anybody or to just tolearn more about them.
Are
Fox (27:21):
there any identities you'd like to share so they don't have
to out themselves if they're notready.
But gosh, I love my identitiesright now.
They're so fun, but some peopledon't feel safe to share their
identities.
And I want to honor that too,wherever they are in their
journey.
Casey (27:35):
Yeah, for sure.
Fox (27:37):
I know we got our topic of polyamory.
This is fine.
This is fine.
No, this is,
Casey (27:40):
this is what our show is about.
We're, we're, we're trying tomake.
Super relaxed and be able totalk about whatever we want to
talk about.
We have that like core topic andif it just shifts around, and
then
Fox (27:51):
it just like rains.
I love that.
Casey (27:53):
Exactly.
So then let's talk about people.
Let's go back to, to beginners,people that are just opening up
their, their longtermrelationship.
What are some good.
Let's call them reflectionquestions, stuff that they might
be able to ask themselves andtheir partners to figure out how
they're going to begin tonavigate this wild ride.
(28:15):
That is polyamory.
Fox (28:16):
Wild, wild, terrifying, beautiful, sexy.
Yeah.
Okay.
So why do you want to open up?
Why do you want to open up withthe person that you're trying to
open up with?
How do y'all think it willchange you and evolve you?
How will you grieve the loss ofmonogamy?
Cause monogamy has so muchimplicit innate, kind of innate
security and safety in it.
(28:38):
So how are you going to agree?
Cause when you start to shift,there is a loss.
And it is.
Mm-Hmm.
It's good to be unsettling toyour brain and your nervous
system.
How are you gonna help eachother soothe and regulate if you
big emotions come up?
Because I think a lot of peopleare intellectualizing polyamory
these days.
Mm-Hmm.
And they're trying to be thegood polyamorous person and not
have jealousy.
You're gonna have jealousy.
Let's plan for it.
(28:59):
Mm-Hmm.
how are we going to manage newrelationship energy?
Because you can get selfobsessed.
So you want to be able to manageit if the other person's not
going through it.
How do you want to, do you wantto set up rituals?
That help us stay connected andwhat parts of our relationship
are we going to be able to allowto be changed and open?
(29:20):
Because I think people are like,Oh, it's not going to change
anything.
We'll still have this.
And it's like, bitch, you arefucking with your whole fucking
dynamic in a good way.
But also let some room in forthings to morph.
Are you going to be able totake, do you know how to take
breaks?
What if it's too intense and youdon't want to do it?
Can you say no?
What are your agreements?
What are your boundaries?
(29:40):
Can we do weekly check ins?
What was the question again?
No, you just keep on going.
Casey (29:46):
This is great.
We're talking about
reflecting
questions for beginners, for these people to be like,
Hey, here's some things I shouldask myself as well as I should
ask my partner andclarifications that could be
made.
Cause you've already given us afucking
Fox (30:00):
so many.
How do you foresee yourselfoperating in polyamory?
What are you going to do if yourpartner's dating and you're not?
Yeah.
So just staying connected,staying compassionate.
How are you going to have timeto yourself?
Because all of a sudden ifyou've got multiple lovers, you
might feel really overwhelmed.
So you've got to have goodboundaries.
You've got to say yes toyourself.
So yeah.
Gosh, there's so many I couldjust keep going.
(30:22):
It's so.
Casey (30:23):
You've done well so far.
In
Kari (30:25):
the past we've talked a lot about check ins and I do
think that check ins are superimportant, especially when
you're first starting out.
And our check ins would havebeen something as simple as
like, Oh, I chatted with thisperson today, or I.
Chatted with this person, but Ido feel like whatever works for
y'all as a couple works for you.
You know what I mean?
Like, there's no script.
(30:47):
Exactly.
There, there really isn't.
If y'all sit down and y'all bothdecide you want to be open.
I think the biggest advice thatwe like to give is just start
slow.
You know, started in slow, go ona date together.
Go on these dating appstogether, sit down and, and have
a night where y'all scrollthrough and be like, Ooh, I like
her.
I like him.
Yep.
Yep.
(31:07):
Nope.
Yep.
You Aspect of it, which canreally get it kind of like
moving and evolving intosomething more.
Casey (31:19):
Well, it brings them that we can, like you're talking
about, if you're going to docheck ins deciding on how often
are you going to check in?
Is this like, Hey, let's checkin once a week.
And you tell me about theconversations you had.
And I tell you about the onesthat I had, is it going to be
daily?
Is it going to be like, as soonas you open up a conversation
with somebody, because to usearly on in the, in the
beginning of a lot of this, Isit can be, it can be hectic.
(31:42):
It can be scary and you can havea lot of worry for your, your
partner and you can have a lotof, of feelings of envy pop up
and be like, who are theytalking to?
Well, how much are they talkingor how far is their conversation
going?
What are the.
Fox (31:56):
Like starting to compare yourself and feeling like you
have to compete and you mightlose something.
And all of a sudden, like you'vebeen in this established
relationship that was prettysafe and secure.
And now you're opening back upto that dating mindset, which
brings up like those nervousfeelings of how you're being
perceived and how far is thisgoing to go?
And Oh my God, now you have arelationship with someone else.
And it's so, I mean, I justthink, yeah.
Casey (32:19):
And I mean, I love that you had said this earlier.
You talked about whenever aperson.
One of the people in thisrelationship starts dating more
than the other person.
Maybe one of the partners is notgetting.
You know, the, the connectionsthat they were looking for.
Yeah.
And it's, it is, they're justkind of down here while the
other person is scheduling outmultiple dates a week and they
(32:39):
have juggling all theseconversations and all these
people.
And now you look at that and go,okay, well, what am I supposed
to do now?
Because you're
starting to feel like, well, maybe this wasn't a good
idea.
Maybe I, maybe we should justshut the whole thing down.
And that's not the way to goabout doing it.
Fox (32:55):
Yeah.
That's when you want to lean in.
That's, that's where you takeout the intel exit.
Okay.
Intellectualization of polyamoryand you lean into the feelings
and you talk about, Hey, I'mfeeling like a little lonely or
I'm having FOMO and can wereconnect or you go within
yourself?
Like, okay, what are mystrengths?
How do I want to connect?
Can I connect with my community?
Cause polyamory can beisolating.
(33:17):
We have to have a community andresources, educate yourself,
read and do blogs, but like goodsexual health alliance has a
community bloom does these areall in 19.
We ho.
And then sex positive LosAngeles, like meet other people
and have your little tribe oflike minded people.
But yeah, I wanted to touch tooon something that Carrie said
(33:37):
about the script of non ofconsensual non monogamy and not
having one That's like such ablessing and a curse because we
don't really know how tonavigate it because there is no
script But we have the freedomof creating a script But yeah If
you have an established loverlike someone that you've been
with and maybe it's a primaryYou two get to write the script
or if you're doing it on solo orwhatever.
However, you're doing polyamoryYou Write what you want it to
(33:59):
look like and what you expectand what you wish and how you
want to show up as a polyamorousperson.
And then you might have to checksome of your thoughts to align
with how you want to behave.
And that's the part where we goslow and we practice and we have
immense compassion forourselves.
You are gonna fuck up.
I love that you two are like, wefucked up.
That's absolutely gonna happen.
How are you gonna repair?
(34:20):
Because accidents will be made.
Casey (34:22):
And if your relationship is not strong enough, this goes
back to that whole thing ofwhen, why to open up and why not
to open up because yourrelationship is not strong
enough and you go into this andyou do fuck up and then you find
yourself unable to repair thatrelationship
and then
you break up and now you put out the message to the
world.
Polyamory ruined myrelationship.
In reality, you were already ona crash course and to begin
(34:45):
with,
and
you're now blaming something, which people tend to
do, they're blaming somethingelse.
Outside the relationship forfucking everything up.
Fox (34:52):
Yeah.
And let's just name, there areso many happy polyamorous
relationships.
So many just like monogamy.
And then there are many that arestruggling just like monogamy.
Casey (35:01):
Yeah.
Guess
Fox (35:03):
what?
The common denominator ispeople.
Relationships are hard.
No one teaches us how to dothem, but we are taught
monogamy.
Through the mainstream and themedia and our parents usually,
but gosh, it's going to be soexciting in the future when
people are like, Oh yeah, myparents are polyamorous and now
they are like, that's going tobe fun.
Casey (35:23):
I know we always have this behind the scenes
conversation because I mean,we're, we're both set up
cinephiles.
So we watch a lot of movies, wedo all this and we consistently
see in, in like pop culture withrelationships blooming and dying
and all this.
And you have everybody puttingit through the monogamous lens.
And so in our heads, we're like,I'm.
Guarantee you, if we were ableto take a peek behind the
curtain, like celebrities lives,I would bet there's an insanely
(35:47):
high percentage of them that arejust polyamorous.
And don't talk.
Fox (35:50):
Hell yeah.
And don't call it that.
It depends on the generationtoo.
I've noticed like oldergenerations.
They're like, Oh, I don't usethat term.
They, they just live it.
And then younger generations aremore like claiming these labels.
Either all, all those optionsare valid.
I was thinking about that moviebandits.
Have you ever seen that?
Casey (36:06):
No.
Fox (36:06):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
Okay, I'm really glad with thisone.
But this is an older movie, butit's Bruce Willis.
Billy Bob Thornton and Kate areI forgot her name.
I'm not going to say anythingelse cause I don't want to spoil
or alert it.
But when I saw that and I didn'thave the name for polyamory, I
remember watching it and I waslike, Oh, I just felt like my
(36:29):
body was like, yes.
And I didn't know what it meant,but you'll see, I'm not going to
spoil it.
Everyone go watch bandits.
It's so good.
What's her name?
Yeah.
Kate.
No, no.
Okay.
Anyway.
Casey (36:42):
Put it on a list.
Kari (36:43):
Yeah, because we plan on having, so we'll definitely
watch it before the next timethat we chat.
After you watch it, text me.
Deal.
Or take a
Fox (36:52):
picture of yourselves watching it.
We'll just be
Kari (36:53):
texting you during it and be like, Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I would love that.
Please do it.
Casey (37:00):
So, so then do you, do you feel like whenever it comes
to having multiple partners thatthere should be some ultimate
goal or attainable thing thatyou're trying to reach, or do
you feel like it's just aboutfree love and experiencing life
as you see fit?
Fox (37:17):
Gosh, that's a really good question.
I think some people really wantto relationship escalate
naturally.
Like some people are naturallymonogamous.
Some people naturally are like,Oh, I really want to have babies
and live with all these people.
So that could be your goalbecause you feel that in your
soul that like you foreseeyourself having five kids and
living with 17 people.
And then other people might belike, I just want to have
(37:38):
freedom my whole life and kindof hop around.
But as long as there'scompassion and transparent
compassion for self and othersand that consent piece, I think
you're good.
I don't think there needs to bea goal and that's why I love
polyamory.
The, the goal with monogamy isget married, have kids.
The goal with polyamory is love,relate, be intimate, be kind.
(38:00):
And if something's ending, talkabout it and take care of each
other.
That's how I see polyamory.
(38:21):
I'm waiting for you to, to comeback.
It looks like you're listeningso attentively to me, but really
you've been frozen for a while.
We might have to restart stillrecording now.
Okay.
I'll, I'll exit too.
(39:24):
I was shocked.
Casey (39:28):
Would you like to?
Nope.
Go ahead.
Me.
It's me, me.
It's on me.
Got it.
Kari (39:33):
You got this.
Casey (39:33):
Oh no.
I love the fact that you, youtalk about the ability to not
have to adhere to some sort oftrack that you're able to just
kind of like, I like, I like, Ilike ride the wave.
You can decide as things comeup, it doesn't have to be.
You go from point A to B to C toD and then you check the boxes
off the list because you've beentold your entire life that
(39:54):
that's what's supposed to makeyou happy and successful.
Fox (39:57):
I mean, right.
It's like, it's not, it'sfamiliar to capitalism.
And like Western colonizedculture, right?
To be like, now we do this.
Now we do this.
What about just relating andconnecting and just being
present?
Like, what about being presentin polyamory?
It's the way you practice it, Ithink, cause it's a moving,
evolving type of love
(40:17):
where
you are really, it's so relational, right?
Yeah.
Casey (40:22):
Well, there's, I mean, there's, there's just so, it's
such a deep concept.
It's, it's an amazing thing todiscuss because it goes so much
deeper, whatever you're talkingabout, whatever you bring up
into it, like, Western cultureand capitalism and things like
that.
This can generate a lot of fearand anxiety in people.
Because we are told we aredelivered a message from the
(40:43):
time we're born to the time thatwe die of this is what your life
is supposed to look like up onthe screen in big letters that
this this doing these thingsmeans you're happy doing these
things means that you'resuccessful stray away from that.
You're not a good, yeah, there'ssomething wrong with you.
And then the way that you wouldsee it, like in a sci fi movie
(41:03):
would be like, you are not agood citizen.
Kari (41:06):
Well, I mean, think about even when we grow up and it's
like, okay, well, what do youwant to be when you grow up?
Oh, okay.
So you want to be a nurse.
Okay.
So you're a nurse and that's it.
You don't get to be.
Anything else?
Yeah.
One thing, one thing you pickedit and that's all you got.
And you better not say artist ormusician,
Fox (41:25):
you better say like doctor or something like,
Kari (41:29):
but I do think that this like younger generation has
really taught us that like, andlike the, this whole like
entrepreneur concept.
Right.
But like, that was reallyeyeopening.
And I think that's why so manyof millennials got like shit on
because we're like, No, we arenot going to do just that one
thing.
We're going to be able to domultiple things because we have
(41:51):
multiple abilities within us asa human that is not going to be
defied.
Yeah.
Around one occupation.
Right.
Casey (42:00):
Is the same reason why older generations look at us and
go, you are fucking things upbecause we're making them
uncomfortable.
Kari (42:07):
I love making them uncomfortable.
That's my favorite.
Favorite demographic to makethat
Fox (42:12):
is my kink.
I'm like, hi, I'm BIPOC,polyamorous and queer.
Hi.
What do you have to say aboutit?
Yeah.
Say something to my face.
Kari (42:22):
I'm covered in tattoos.
Boom.
Yes.
And I love you.
I love your tattoos on yourlegs.
Thank you.
I got so many.
I don't even know how many Ihave at this point.
You
Casey (42:34):
want to pull your leg up?
Kari (42:35):
I have some, but it's too hard to see.
You can come count them for me.
I have no idea how many I have.
But I love that.
They're so beautiful.
But I'm just saying like the,the, the concept of, if you look
at the fact that your occupationis not the occupation, you're
going to have the rest of yourlife, maybe do the exact same
thing to your relationship.
(42:55):
You can do other things thanwhat was like pre like shoved
into our brains that like, no,no, no, this is what we have to
do.
And this is our only option.
And I do give so much applaud tothis younger generation that
have come out and said, this iswho I am.
This is what I'm going to do.
Fuck your mold.
Fuck your system.
Yes.
And, and now I feel like us islike millennials and older
(43:17):
millennials.
We're really like.
That's a great idea.
How else can we utilize theseconcepts of not being stuck in
this mold?
And I think that if you look atyour life as like a career, you
can look at your relationshipthe same way.
You don't have to be stuck inone concept just because you're
a race thinking one way doesn'tmean that you can evolve and
(43:40):
understand other joys in lifethan just what we were brought
up to think.
Fox (43:45):
Yeah, I love what you're saying.
And this just connects to assoon as you start to like
question sexuality and how youhave sex and why and your
pleasure and you start to ownit.
I think it fucks everything upin the paradigm that you exist
in.
And all of a sudden you're like,Oh my God, I own my pleasure.
I own my body.
Wait a minute, what am I, am Idoing all the things that
(44:06):
someone else told me?
What do I value about what I'vebeen taught?
And how do I really see myself?
Because we're fucking like multidimensional beings.
Why would we ever do one thing?
I do so many things.
I even approach therapy as anart that's like colorful and
queer and like spicy.
I don't know how to just do onething.
I've never fit into a box and Inever want to.
And I do make peopleuncomfortable.
(44:28):
And it's my kink.
That's not my problem, but Ithink I'm also inspiring them on
some level
Kari (44:34):
and you are definitely inspiring them.
Fox (44:36):
Right.
We're tickling something inpeople that wakes them up and
reminds them they are soexpansive.
They can love any way they wish,
but
it's scary too because then you have to go back on the way
your mind is like, you know,conditioned to not be shamed.
Casey (44:49):
And rewiring that is a complex process.
It's one of the reasons why.
We're, we're online and we see alot of, a lot of coaches, sexual
sexuality and sex coaches thatare out there and that are
spouting advice and a lot.
So there's some good stuff.
There's also a lot of scarystuff.
You're supposed to be in it andit's, it's, it's just this whole
(45:10):
mix.
And so for us looking at it,it's really, really, that's the
time whenever we're like, look,if you're trying to, really
deconstruct the very core valuesthat we grew up with.
Yeah.
Of, of things like monogamy.
That's whenever it's importantto team up with like a really
good therapist
that can
help you do it because navigating that on your own can
(45:31):
be potentially hazardous,especially when you live in the
era of information.
Whenever we have access to Allof it.
It's you're literally giving a,giving a child explosives and
saying, play with these.
Yeah.
Fox (45:44):
Yeah.
Because that exciting part ofpolyamory is like, yeah, let's
do it.
Let's open up.
And then we forget our nervoussystem is conditioned to think
one way is the good way, thesafe way, the secure way.
Two books I love.
Oh, I don't have them on myshelf right now, but Jessica
Fern's new poly wise is so good.
I'm writing a book.
Hello.
I'm writing a book.
Yes.
(46:05):
Yes.
I'll let you know when it's out.
I'm still writing it.
Oh, absolutely.
You gotta
Casey (46:08):
let us know.
Yeah,
Kari (46:09):
cause we'll have
Fox (46:10):
to have
Kari (46:10):
you back on to talk about it.
Fox (46:11):
Oh my gosh, please.
Thank you.
And then Martha Kelpy wrote abook too.
Her book is for clinicians, liketherapists, but it's also for
polyamorous people.
But I would say it is a littlemore clinically written, but
that's the shit you're going tolearn when you're in therapy.
So I think I go to the root ofhow do I change my thinking and
my perception of myself?
How do I increase my selfesteem?
I see y'all laughing.
(46:32):
What's going on?
Casey (46:33):
That's, that's because that's what I do.
I'll get recommendations frompeople that are like, Hey, Oh,
read this book on, like we had,we had somebody more recently be
like, we were talking aboutinternal family systems.
And so we had talked a littlebit and so they'd been like,
Hey, read this book on partswork.
And
so I went, I went through parts work and like an afternoon
(46:56):
and then completely like shiftedgears.
And said, you know what, I'mgoing to go ahead.
And I, so I picked up internalfamily systems by Richard
Schwartz.
Yes.
And so, I dove into that andthat one for me, like on the,
from the clinician side ofthings just spoke so much more
depth, like the actual how andwhy behind it, and I would just
(47:18):
felt so much more connected todoing things like that.
And I tend to do that with allof the stuff that we recently.
Does you yeah, you
Kari (47:24):
were like the most permanent student I've ever
known in my entire life And Iadmire the shit out of you about
that and I'm over here likelistening to smut books and he's
over here doing like But youcompliment each other.
This is the beautiful so funny.
Y'all can compliment each otherin this way.
It's beautiful Oh, for
Casey (47:43):
sure.
Because what we ultimately wantis the other to feel joy, right?
Kari (47:47):
Yeah.
Casey (47:48):
Which brings me to that, that next topic that we have.
And that's the biggest topic ofcompersion.
For people that don't understandwhat compersion is, it's
literally the, the, the joy thatyou get from watching your
partner experience joy withinand then we use it within
polyamory as a way to be like,I'm receiving joy by watching my
(48:10):
partner, like happy.
Whatever they engage with otherpeople, whatever way that may
be.
But I, you actually experiencingjoy from your partner's joy.
And it's such an important and,and, and large thing to try to
do, but it can be difficult too.
So what tips do you have forpeople trying to introduce
themselves to, to compersion andhow they can access these, these
(48:34):
feelings?
Fox (48:35):
You know, it's the first thing I'm going to do is like
say, Oh fuck, I don't know if wecan access compersion.
We can just set up the contextto hope that it happens kind of
like a orgasm.
You can't force an orgasm.
It's like a sneeze.
It's like a response, but youcan set up the context around it
to increase the likelihood itwill happen.
So I want to say like compersionis that fulfillment, like you
(48:57):
fulfilled seeing your lover befulfilled.
It's like, Oh, you're beingloved.
I love that.
So not everyone's going toexperience that.
And it doesn't mean you're doingpolyamory right or wrong at all.
You may never experience, youmay experience it all the time,
but to set up the context tomake it more.
To more likely to happen.
I think Dr.
Eli SCH talks about thisactually is having safety,
(49:18):
security, and power in equality,shared power in equality, safety
and security.
If those are increased in yourrelationship and strong, I think
it's more likely you willexperience conversion if you
haven't yet.
So let that motivate you.
Okay.
But if you never experience,that's okay.
Casey (49:33):
Yeah.
Well, I love that link.
I love that link that you talkedabout with it being contextually
appropriate.
I mean, we, we talk about thatoften whenever it comes to sex
and you know, we have peoplelike Emily Nagoski out there who
like centers.
I'm
Kari (49:47):
just going to keep doing commercials.
We're going to be screenshottingall of these.
Come
Casey (49:55):
as you are was a great book.
Her, her newest one cometogether was a fantastic read.
It was just released in January.
Fox (50:02):
Oh, okay.
I'm gonna have to get that.
And then this one's great forsetting boundaries.
Cause you're going to need a lotof.
Ability to set boundaries whenyou, and what's that one?
This is set boundaries, findpeace by Nedra Glover to walk.
And she's a BIPOC fan, so I'malways uplifting my community,
but that's a great one because Imeet a lot of people that
(50:22):
struggle with polyamory becauseit's really hard.
Like if they have like peoplepleasing tendencies and have
trouble setting boundaries, youcan polyamory.
But anyways, I'm sorry.
See how I just.
Completely got off track.
Where were we?
Casey (50:35):
By all means, you could continue with any of that.
Where are you at?
Fox (50:38):
We're
Kari (50:40):
talking
Casey (50:42):
about compersion and the context and creating the context
instead of trying to go for itdirectly and just navigate your
way to it.
But I like that you said that
Kari (50:50):
not everyone's going to ever experience that because I
feel like you get like theselike expectations that like, no,
there'll, there'll come a pointthat I, I'm so, I don't know.
Satisfied by seeing himsatisfied.
But I do love that you say that,like, because that is an
unrealistic expectation thatjust means that it doesn't mean
that what is happening is wrongto mean you may not experience
(51:11):
that within the poly world.
Fox (51:14):
Yes.
And I need to do a video.
I do little videos on thepolyamory therapist on like
Instagram and TikTok.
I need to do one on this becauseI think that's part of the
intellectualization of polyamoryand the good polyamory theory
that I have.
The good polyamorous.
theory I have, where we'retrying to do it as if it's on an
app and there's buttons and weshould be acting certain ways.
(51:35):
Hello emotions.
We cannot control them.
We can navigate them and copewith them and understand them
and lean into them.
But polyamory is full of bigemotions.
So compersion may or may nothappen.
Jealousy may or may not happen.
If it does, how can we creaseit?
How can we navigate it?
It's like, that's my therapistbrain, but that actually does
help.
Like I do it to myself all thetime.
(51:56):
I therapize my own brain.
I'm not supposed to.
Kari (52:00):
It's kind of hard not to though.
When you have the information,you kind of turn it on yourself.
When
Casey (52:06):
you watch it, when you watch it helps so many people so
often, then you kind of go,well, I'll just use it on
myself.
Let's do that.
Fox (52:12):
Yes.
Oh, I'm fucking with cognitivebehavioral therapy right now.
I'm just like, Ooh, what thoughtdid I just think that made me
feel like fucking shit?
Okay.
Oh my God.
That was that thought.
Well, I don't have to make itlike, Oh my God, you're amazing
and beautiful.
No, I just need a neutralthought.
I'm a good person.
I'm doing my best.
I can't control what they thinkof me.
And I'll be like, Oh my God, allof a sudden I'll feel my nervous
(52:34):
system, like leave the threatand be like, Oh, I'm okay.
And I'm like, shit, this shitworks.
And I just practice, practice,practice.
Okay, go ahead.
Casey (52:43):
No, no, that's, that's, that's awesome.
We love talking about that.
Again, as we set up the, thecontext for it, that also allows
you, as you said, navigate theemotions.
Stop, stop worrying about if theemotions are going to happen and
start, Focusing more on how canI, when they are occurring, can
I a recognize that I'm havingthe emotion in the first place?
(53:05):
Can I be then take that emotionand figure out how I can get to
maybe the next closest emotionto it
Kari (53:11):
brings me
Casey (53:12):
back towards happiness, right?
Kari (53:13):
If
Casey (53:15):
I'm in a place of anger, I can think about what emotions
lie closest to anger for me
and then
try to move myself.
And instead of trying to go fromangry to happy, Or from angry to
this way, the fuck over here.
Kari (53:29):
Take a small
Casey (53:30):
step just to the next emotion.
Kari (53:31):
And
Casey (53:32):
even if that, even if that motion is not a positive
one, just take a step to thenext one and then find out
what's next to that.
And next to that, until you cannavigate your way back out of
that dark hole that you're inand into something brighter.
Fox (53:43):
Oh, that dark hole.
And it just, it makes me thinkabout, and I just want to say
this because I know we're goingto end soon.
Our
bodies perceive a lot of things as threat.
And when that happens, we gointo fight, flight, fight,
fight, fawn, or freeze.
And then our rational brain hasshut down.
Yes.
Polyamory can be a threat because our nervous system is
like, Oh my God, you're about tolose your beloved.
(54:05):
What the fuck are you doing?
They're out with someone else.
You need to compete.
All this shit comes up and wehave to find a way to regulate
ourselves, self soothe, ask forsupport, and check in.
Is there evidence that I'm inthreat right now?
And help your brain come back.
And I think sometimes at the,like that primal panic, Jessica
Fern talks about andpolysaccharide, yeah, the
(54:25):
nervous system and theattachment shit is real.
And that's why therapy, like atherapist who is poly friendly
or polyamorous or a polyadvocate is really good because
we can help.
Like help people kind of buildsome new skills around
polyamory.
Yeah.
Casey (54:40):
Well, you don't, you don't always have the ability to
recognize what's going on.
I mean, that comes from the factthat whenever you enter into
these states, we have decreasedblood flow and decreased
activity in the prefrontalcortex, right?
So now that logical brain It'sjust, and so now you're in the
Chilean brain, your amygdala isfiring up.
You have all these other piecesthat are just firing negativity
(55:02):
into your head and you don'tnecessarily recognize because
logic's out the window thatyou're in that state.
And so you react emotionally.
Kari (55:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you were like, yeah,
Casey (55:11):
exactly.
If we can start to recognize wecan start to have a plan in
place to recognize it.
Fox (55:16):
Thank you.
Yeah.
And compassion for ourselves.
We're just human.
We're human beings.
We're really fragile and we justwant to be loved, seen and
heard.
Really?
Exactly.
At the end of the day.
That's a good place to,
Casey (55:29):
I was going to say it at that.
I think that we're going to,we're going to bring the
interview to a conclusion.
This is One by for those thatdidn't already know it, that
we're sitting down here with FoxEros.
As we talk about polyamory,we've covered a number of things
today and we're going to cumber,cumber, cumber,
cumber,
cumber, cumber.
We're
going
Kari (55:48):
to come as you are.
Casey (55:53):
Thank you.
Emily Nagoski for that one.
But on our, on our next time,our interview part two, we're
going to be covering a littlebit more about things like the
issues within, within gendersand issues within some of these
very, very real emotions thatpop up with polyamory.
So stay tuned next time foranother episode of come with
Casey.
We're your hosts.
I'm Dr.
Casey Sanders
Kari (56:12):
and I'm Carrie Sanders.
I'll
Casey (56:14):
see you next time.
Fox (56:15):
See you next time.
I'm Fox arrows.
Bye.
Find me on the polyamorytherapists.
com.
To another episode of come with your day.
(00:02):
We have with us joining you withus, one of our good friends who
we will introduce in just asecond.
But in the meantime, we wantedto introduce what the topic of
this show is about today.
We cover things all the time.
We cover kink, we cover BDSM, wecover relationships and, and
communication and all sorts oftopics.
But one of the most Largelyasked questions we get from our
audience almost more thananything.
(00:23):
We learn
Kari (00:24):
more than anything.
What
Casey (00:26):
do I do if we want to open a relationship?
And so in order to give people abetter view of this landscape,
what that's like, we've broughton our friend Fox.
Fox, how are you doing?
Kari (00:40):
Hi, I'm Fox Eros hi, friends.
We're like sexual healthalliance friends, aren't we?
Casey (00:47):
We are.
We are.
Yes, we
Kari (00:48):
are.
Casey (00:49):
That's what, I started in sexual health alliance, Carrie's
now with sexual health.
Fox (00:55):
Yeah, it's our own little like sex positive tribe.
I love that.
I love that y'all are doing yourpodcast and you're still doing
it.
So amazing.
There you are.
Man.
I'm not mad.
Kari (01:10):
So he's gonna go off really fast and try and see what
is going on with our Wi Fi.
Yeah, no problem.
Maybe,
Fox (01:16):
yeah, maybe restarting it.
I know it's so funny because I'mlike this and I'm like hoping
you know that, yeah, okay.
You know what I mean.
Kari (01:24):
Okay.
Totally fine.
How long have you been with SHA?
Fox (01:29):
Sorry, say it again?
How long have you been with SHA?
Well, gosh, I graduated from thesex therapy program, I think,
last year.
But I did it at the same time asI was in my master's program to
be an, you know, marriage familytherapist.
I'm an associate marriage familytherapist.
Now I have to, I'm supposed tosay that I'm an associate, but
(01:50):
yeah, I did it at the same time.
It was stressful because I wasdoing so much, but I was, I, I
would do it again.
It was so informative.
I needed, especially in like sexissues and psychotherapy.
It's so detailed and nuanced andcomplex that I felt like I
really needed like a lot ofinformation.
So now when I'm with my clients,I have so many, if I don't know
(02:12):
the answer, I have theresources.
And then if I do know theanswers, I feel really competent
and confident.
Do you, what do you use yoursexual health alliance for?
Kari (02:20):
So I'm in the coaching program.
Oh.
Dr.
Lay had been working veryclosely with me.
And, and it was actually themwho.
Recommended me actually goingmore into the coaching program.
After meeting with them a fewtimes they read me like a book
and they were like, you don'tnecessarily seem like someone
(02:43):
who wants to like dive into likethe emotions, but you're
probably better suited at likegiving really good advice,
giving good advice.
I love that.
And so it just kind of turnedinto this like beautiful concept
that like Casey was going to gointo the counseling.
I was going to go into thecoaching and then we're going to
be able to come together and,and really help people.
(03:04):
And that was, that was been ourgoal.
That's been our goal this entiretime.
Casey (03:07):
I'm back.
Kari (03:10):
Well, Batman.
Fox (03:12):
He was like, Oh, I don't know.
Are we using all this?
Are you going to like, I thinkwe might,
Kari (03:18):
I think we can find little bits of it.
It's cute.
Yeah,
Fox (03:20):
because y'all have such, let's let's use this.
Y'all have the most pleasant,like loving voices, very sexy
podcast voice.
Casey (03:30):
Oh, thank you very much.
Yeah,
Fox (03:31):
that's, that's like 90 percent of why I listen to a
podcast is if I resonate andalign with the voice, it's like
slightly arousing and veryinformative.
And y'all have that.
Kari (03:41):
Good job.
I'm arousing and informative,baby.
We.
We.
Oh I'm not.
Yeah, we.
Hello.
She did say
Casey (03:48):
we.
Oh, okay.
You know, we're gonna, we'regonna use, we're probably gonna
use all of this, actually.
Kari (03:53):
That's our new tagline.
That's our new tagline.
We are arousing and informative.
Yes, that's your tagline.
You have to use the Batman part.
Yeah,
but I am not Robin.
Damn it.
I'm like poison.
I'm your own superhero.
You're not, I'm my own entity.
No, I'm poison.
I'd be.
(04:14):
All right.
Casey (04:18):
So back, back on topic.
Now that we've sorted throughour technical difficulties, Fox,
we are super excited to have youon the show to talk all about
polyamory.
If we understand correctly,Okay.
You are an inclusive andinformative affirmative.
Oh my
Fox (04:32):
God,
Casey (04:32):
I'm just dropping balls.
Fox (04:34):
No, you're
good.
Casey (04:34):
Inclusive and affirmative therapists for individuals and
intimate relationships, correct?
Fox (04:38):
Yes.
Casey (04:39):
Okay.
So tell us a little bit aboutyourself and what it is you do.
Fox (04:42):
Okay.
First of all, I always like toacknowledge the land that I'm on
of the Chumash native firstpeoples.
And so, yes, I'm an associatemarriage therapist.
associate marriage and familytherapist.
And that means that I just workwith people to kind of navigate
like trauma and emotions wherethey're stuck life stress.
And it's kind of been my callingto work with people in
(05:05):
polyamorous relationships andalso Cause you know, we're all
from the sexual health alliance.
That's where we all studied.
So I'm also certified in that.
And I worked with Dr.
Eli chef.
I don't know if you know her, Ilove her, but she's done
research in polyamory for likedecades and she worked, she's
written a book.
So I studied with her and nowI'm just, I call myself the
(05:27):
polyamory therapist.
That's I'm on all the socialmedias as that.
And it's like, it's like my lifecalling.
I don't know what it is, butit's like, It just turns me on
spiritually and in every otherway to work with this population
and then to talk about it.
I think it's because it'sradicalizing love.
And it's going back to how weused to be.
Like, indigenous people werealready doing this.
(05:47):
Like, monogamy is not theoriginal or the new.
Hello.
We are returning back to a newway of relating and loving.
I
Casey (05:56):
love that.
Whenever we look back into a lotof the history, one of the
things I do the most is readinga lot of research and we look at
books like it was like sex, aworld history.
And we talk about howrelationships used to look way
back when.
And it was never.
No, this one thing of monogamyis the only way and you're in
this box and that's all you get.
There's been a Relationship ofstyles have shifted and changed
(06:19):
and flowed over over centuriesWithin within humanity.
So to see this what I what we'reseeing at least this resurgence
of polyamory is, has been reallycool.
We know it's been there, butpeople are starting to feel
more, yeah, people are startingto feel more comfortable
discussing it.
And so I think that's where alot of this has come from is a
(06:41):
lot of the people online are nowgoing, well, wait a minute.
I've always been told thatthat's an option.
Kari (06:45):
Yeah,
no, you don't even know.
Fox (06:47):
You don't even realize that our monogamous mindset and
upbringing has completelyinfluenced us.
When I learned that it's likepart of colonization and
Christianity, that's themonogamy thing.
And it was this.
assimilating indigenous peopleand taking away the kind of love
that they had.
Like now it's all aboutdecolonizing love.
Yes.
What did we used to do?
And you know, as our financialclimate changes, I believe
(07:09):
people will begin relating indifferent ways.
And these younger generations,they're just like, Fuck you
marriage, but I also like I'mnot shaming monogamy because
I've done monogamy most of mylife But I've oh my orientations
all always been polyamorous ButI never knew the name for it and
I always felt shamed anddifferent and yeah, just
something was wrong But now thatI know the name i'm like fuck.
(07:31):
Yeah, i'm so polyamorous.
My lifestyle is monogamous butI'm not here to shame monogamy.
And I always like to say thatbecause that's if, if people
shame polyamory, I'm not goingto shame back.
Like, I'm right.
Absolutely.
Casey (07:44):
Right.
We, we talk about it similarlyin the kink scene, whenever it's
like, we don't shame, you know,people that want and love being
vanilla.
Yeah,
I think it was, it was late David Elliot that it was
on.
That was like vanilla is still agreat flavor of ice cream.
Oh,
Fox (07:57):
I like chocolate better.
Just kidding.
Casey (08:00):
So she made it really well for us there.
So, yeah, exactly.
Hear what you're saying.
Entirely.
So it's really cool to see usgetting these questions from
people that are like, wait,wait, wait a minute.
And then we sift through thedifferent questions because when
we're going to get to this in alittle bit about how people open
up and all that, and what themost common types of longterm
monogamous relationships looklike when they start to open up,
(08:24):
but let's, we get all, all thepitfalls and all the, all the
caveats and things like thatonce we get there, but for now
let's start off this whole thingby asking the simple question
of.
Why do people go from monogamousor monogamous?
Why do they start to open up inthe first place?
What are some things that youthink influence that curiosity?
Fox (08:46):
Yeah, I think that it's becoming more mainstream.
So they're realizing it as anoption.
Some people feel like they'venever been good at monogamy and
they've had a lot of struggleswith infidelity.
And they're like, Oh my God,there's another option.
Like I find it hard to love oneperson.
I've always loved many peopleand then I have to shame it and
hide it.
And then I fuck up.
Some people just want more ofeverything, more intimacy,
(09:07):
intimacy, more love, more selfexpansion and self growth
because when you're polyamorous,You are expanding your
relational skills because it'snot just about fucking
Oftentimes there's thisemotional component in this
romantic component in thisreally connecting relational
component So you are likeexpanding your fucking
relational relational skills somuch so you grow a lot in that
(09:31):
way It's so freeing like when Irealized I was polyamorous I was
like, I felt so alive in my souland turned on because I no
longer have to shut down thatpart of myself.
Just because I'm like marriedand what society looks at as
married.
I was like, okay, I'm married.
I'm only with this one person.
But once I was like, wait aminute, I'm called Amherst.
I was just like, my eyes opened,my nervous system opened up.
(09:53):
Like, do you ever feel that waythat you start to feel like, Oh
wait, I don't even know howy'all identify.
Okay.
Wait, sorry.
Kari (10:04):
We're, we're MAGA monogamist.
Casey (10:05):
Yeah.
It's on the ish side.
So we, we tend to, I gotta
Fox (10:11):
say what you are comfortable saying.
No, no,
Casey (10:13):
we're completely, we've, we've shared everything on the
internet.
Yeah.
We're already all over theplace.
Everyone already knows.
Oh, we, we tend to fluctuate.
There's times depending.
So we, this, this is, it's goingto sound hierarchical, but, and
we're okay with that, honestly.
It's depending on where our corerelationship is typically
dictates On if we open up alittle bit more or not, you
Kari (10:36):
know, even if we have the time, sometimes it's a, it's a
time management thing, you know,we both know.
And like, right now we areconsidering ourselves closed and
that's because we have a lot ofthings that we're juggling.
And.
When we don't have the time to,or when it starts to put a
strain on us, that is when wemake the decision to go ahead
(10:57):
and, and close, but we've beenopen for the last like few years
of our relationship.
And
Casey (11:03):
five or so.
Kari (11:04):
Yeah.
And, and so it's definitelybrought a lot of amazing
opportunities to us.
It's, it allowed us tocommunicate more.
It's allowed us to learn a lotabout one another individually
and who we are together.
Yeah.
We
Casey (11:17):
do a lot of discussion around the boundaries around
that.
Clearly we don't ever want tohurt anybody outside of a
relationship.
So we make rules.
It's like if we're not engagingin a, in a relationship
currently, then we can talk,then we talk about opening or
closing.
We try to steer away from beinglike, if we're already in a, in
a relationship on some level,then we, we try to respect that
(11:39):
enough to be like, all right,now we don't talk about opening
or closing.
Okay.
But once we're, once everythingis just us, then we'll close it
down.
Fox (11:47):
Yeah.
I think that's like a beautifuland ethical way.
And I know that was one ofy'all's questions is like this
new sensationalized conversationabout it's unethical to be like
have couples privilege.
I think that was one of thequestions we were going to go
over.
And I'm just like, if you aredoing it with compassion and
transparency and kindness, youare being polyamorous and you
are ethical.
How are you going to marginalizean already marginalized
(12:09):
community and start pulling allthese rules?
Like if y'all are invested ineach other and you've known each
other longer and that's safe andsecure and you want to open up
and you meet someone and yousay, Hey, just so you know,
we're, this is our powerdynamic.
And they can ask questions.
They can say, well, like, couldI ever live with you?
What if I wanted to have a babywith you?
Like, how do you make decisions?
(12:29):
If you're transparent with them,they might say, okay, cool.
I want that.
Or no, I don't want that.
And then that's ethical.
Kari (12:35):
Like,
Fox (12:36):
yeah.
Like live your, live your
Kari (12:38):
love, right?
There's
Casey (12:40):
low difference in that between.
And in the same is in the samesense as talking with somebody
that you are looking to sayyou're monogamous and you're
looking at the dating scene,you're sitting down with someone
and saying, what are your lifegoals look like?
What did you want to have kids?
What are your career?
Kari (12:56):
It's the same thing.
It's the same
Casey (12:57):
thing.
We're just having a slightlylarger dynamic here, which can
be a difficult thing tonavigate, but it can be so
rewarding.
Fox (13:05):
Yeah, and I like sometimes unicorns are exploited and I've
been a unicorn and I loved itwas one of my favorite loving
Experiences of my life, but noteveryone has a good experience
So I get that too, but I didn'twant to be like a full time
married person with them I likedmy role and I understood it and
there was respect and love butother people would be like no
(13:25):
way I don't want to be yourunicorn and like feel used for
the night like it is like get itHave a transaction with a sex
worker.
Casey (13:35):
That's our top, our top piece of advice because we have
a number of monogamous friendswho have been married and
they're like, you know, we'rethinking about bringing a third
in
Kari (13:44):
and our
Casey (13:44):
first thing is like, To what purpose?
Yes.
Don't, don't bring them inbecause it's fulfilling some
fantasy that you and your wifehave.
That's not, if you want to dothat, sure.
If you want to have anexperience that's purely sexual
and it's something to fulfill afantasy within your
relationship, hire a sex worker.
Fox (14:06):
Yeah, exactly.
I only want sex and see ifthey're like, yeah, me too.
Perfect.
Yeah.
Casey (14:12):
Are you here for a casual relationship?
Are you here for just sex?
That is consensual amongst allparties involved.
Go for it.
And if you have to deal withemotions after the fact, do it
in a way that can, that can getyou out on the other side and a
good, and a good light and notsomething where you're falling
apart afterwards.
Fox (14:30):
Yeah.
Well, the tragedy of fallingapart afterwards.
That's real.
Casey (14:35):
I
Fox (14:35):
didn't mean to laugh there.
Nervous laughter.
I was like, Oh my God, trauma.
Casey (14:40):
We'll get along just fine.
I've, I've, I do that quite abit.
He does nervous nervous.
Yes.
I laugh at some of the mostserious things because it's
just,
Fox (14:48):
it's a release though.
Your nervous system is trying toreset.
Casey (14:50):
Exactly.
So, so we talked a little bitabout like reasons why couples
open up and this may be becausethey do realize their capacity
for relationships does lieoutside of, of a single partner.
They may be so close and sotrusting and so comfortable with
their partner that they findthemselves able to handle these
other relationships.
Fox (15:11):
Yeah.
They have different needs thatcan be met by other people.
Like maybe you're kinky and youreally want to go to sex parties
and your partner's like, Oh, I'mnot interested.
Go get your needs met.
Be safe.
Do your thing.
Yeah.
Casey (15:21):
Yeah.
And I'm sure that can be a roughconversation to navigate.
I know.
Fox (15:25):
Yeah.
And you know, relying on oneperson for everything is really
difficult.
Like we don't do that withfriendships.
We don't do that at work.
Why are we doing it withromance, intimacy, and sex?
It's a lot of pressure to beeverything to one person.
Casey (15:38):
Yeah.
And that can lead to a lot ofsexual problems that can lead to
a lot of relationship problems.
And so the, the ability toengage in something like that in
a safe and consensual manner isimportant.
Fox (15:48):
Yeah.
Consenting adults.
Yeah.
We're not promoting likeinfidelity.
We're saying if you are, I thinkconsent is everybody wants to,
everybody knows about it andeverybody agrees.
Casey (15:58):
Yes.
That's
Fox (15:59):
why it's exciting.
Casey (16:00):
Yeah.
It's that if it's not a fuckyes, then it's a no.
Fox (16:03):
Yeah.
It's not a hell yes.
Exactly.
And by the way, like I can keep,I'll just keep talking.
So bring me back to the questionif you'd like, because I'll
just, I don't, I'm in space.
I have no idea where I
Casey (16:15):
am.
Not a problem at all.
Not a problem at all.
So then let's, let's shift alittle bit.
If we looked at reasons whycouples do open up, whether it
to be any of the things wediscussed, what are some reasons
that you tell people, Hey, It'snot a good idea, or maybe it's
not the best fit for you to openup.
Fox (16:31):
Yeah, they're starting to, yeah, I think if there's any
element of abuse, so we callthat domestic abuse or intimate
partner violence.
So if any of that is going on, Iwould say, please don't open up
right now.
Cause it, Opening up is it'scomplex and it can exasperate
current problems.
And if you're already not safe,it's gonna, it could make things
(16:53):
worse.
And I just want to say for thepurposes of this, if anyone's
listening and they feel thatharm or anything, you can go to
the hotline.
org that's a website for help.
If you feel safe to get thathelp, or you can text 8, 8, 7,
8, 8, just for anyone listening.
So if you don't feel safe Iwouldn't open up if you are
feeling co horsed, manipulated,like it's an ultimatum or
(17:15):
pressure.
That's not a hell yes.
Like,
it's like, take a pause cause one person might be
pushing it and the otherperson's like, I'm not sure.
Those relationships end up beingreally complex and like not
sustainable.
Yeah.
A lot of times.
Casey (17:27):
Yeah, you have, you have that one partner.
That's like, I really want this.
I want to go for it.
And the other partner is
leans
into it simply because they're afraid that they're
going to lose their partner ifthey don't say yes.
Or that if they don't say yes,then it's going to lead to the
other partner, a case ofinfidelity or, or something
along those lines.
Fox (17:45):
Yeah.
And, and that happens a lot.
So just slow it down and try togo at a similar pace.
That's a deep question though,cause I see a lot of that other
reasons to pause.
If there's past like traumawounds or like trust ruptures
between you and your partner,excuse me, and I'm assuming this
is opening up from an alreadyestablished relationship, then
(18:06):
maybe work a little bit on thattrust and safety and security,
because those are like thepillars, that's what Jessica
Fern talks about when thosepillars are strong, you can
navigate polyamory a little bitbetter.
Mm hmm.
And I'm thinking of what other reasons to slow down.
I mean, to pause.
If you think polyamory is justlike a 24 seven fuck fest orgy,
(18:28):
which is awesome.
But polyamory is the oneconsensual non monogamy under
the ethical non monogamyumbrella that includes romance
and intimacy and connection anda lot of fucking communication.
Okay, I'm really bad at jokes,but I'm going to try to do a
joke right now.
You can edit it out.
It's not good.
What did the monogamous person?
(18:49):
Okay.
So let me start over.
See, I already fucked it up.
Like, please don't do any jokeson the podcast.
I'm like, I'm not gonna.
Okay.
20 minutes in go.
Yeah.
Okay.
Wait.
Okay.
The monogamous person said tothe polyamorous person, God,
you're polyamorous.
That's amazing.
You must have sex all the time.
And the polyamorous person said,no, I'm too busy communicating.
(19:11):
So that's a very polyamorousjoke.
It's not that funny, butpolyamorous people are talking
all the time about theirfeelings and time management and
what's happening.
So if you think you're justgoing to be fucking all the
time, can I say fuck on here?
Casey (19:24):
Yeah.
Yeah, you can.
Fox (19:25):
Okay, fuck.
That might be a misconception.
And maybe just, yeah, it's,maybe you want to do swinging.
Maybe you want to do like anopen relationship or something
different, but yeah, I thinkthat's, that's all I can think
of right now.
Why people Maybe slow it down.
Casey (19:43):
Yeah.
I think that a lot of peopleneed a good look at the actual
umbrella that, that falls a lotof this into, because they don't
understand that there's adifference between polyamory and
swinging and all, I mean,there's, there's so many sub
genres to having multiplepartners.
If there's, there's a lot.
Fox (20:04):
true.
You bring up a great point.
Not everyone understands thenuances of each defined thing.
Casey (20:10):
Exactly.
And so they sit back and they'rein this longterm relationship
and like, all right, well, we'regoing to go out and you can have
one partner thinking that this,this experience is going to be
in one way.
And I don't want to put like,Gender stereotypes on anybody or
anything like that.
However, What we usually see iswe see a male in the
relationship who is verycentered around the sexual
(20:31):
gratification of multiplepartners and we see the wife in
the relationship who is verycentered around the emotional
connection and Sex is kind oflike the bonus for it.
Like I also get to fuck thisperson.
Fox (20:42):
Yes, and then you know what I see
Casey (20:45):
What's that?
Fox (20:46):
I'm like, I wanted to build anticipation.
Then I see a clip where the,like the cis male, like in this,
like, maybe cis male, cis femaleconfiguration, he doesn't get
the amount of dates or theamount of sex he thought he
would.
And his partner begins to, andis dating more often and maybe
(21:06):
being more sexual.
Or there's a threesome and hedoesn't feel included the way he
thought he would be or the twoThe female and the other person
maybe start to have feelings.
Yeah
So, I mean we got to talk about expectations and
boundaries and agreements beforewe jump into this because so
much changes Oh, it'sheartbreaking when we just it's
(21:27):
like Going, what is it calledwhen you jump from an airplane?
Is that parachuting?
Kari (21:31):
Skydiving?
Fox (21:32):
It's like skydiving and not even looking at the f cking
safety protocol.
Kari (21:36):
Yeah.
Fox (21:36):
That's what getting into polyamory without talking first
about weight, like, in depthabout it is because people get
really hurt.
Or you can have a fucking greattime because you're kind of
like, okay, safety,communication, transparency.
Casey (21:49):
Let's talk about our boundaries.
Let's talk about ourexpectations, but that's such a
big thing that we can, that wecan discuss is what your initial
perception is of the types ofrelationships you're getting
into.
So if, and I love that you,you've been in this
hypothetical, we've clarifiedthat we, yes, we are talking in
this instance about a cis heteromale and possibly like, Let's go
(22:11):
with our case cis, cis gendered,heterosexual male and a cis
gendered, bisexual female.
Fox (22:17):
What's up?
Hey, I'm pansexual.
You're bisexual.
We're friends.
Casey (22:24):
Let's do this.
And so it's important for usthat one of the things that we
were doing or that we learned toover time was figuring out what
our ideas are in the firstplace.
What do you think this is goingto be?
What do you want out of this?
How, how to what extent can thisgo?
And we, we fucked up a lot inthe
Kari (22:41):
past.
Yes.
Yep.
we fucked up.
All do.
Yeah.
A lot.
Casey (22:45):
And that's, that's part of it.
And so for us is part of it.
It was,
Kari (22:48):
yeah.
For us it was
Casey (22:49):
coming back to that, that like core of saying, all right,
let's regroup.
Here's what happened, here's howthings went.
What can we do in the future tomake sure that doesn't happen?
So I think that we did what alot of couples do and just kind
of Did exactly that we wentskydiving.
Well without ever learning howto pull the cord but And I think
it came
Kari (23:09):
after me recently at the time coming out as bisexual I
knew it was who I was but Ididn't grow up feeling like I
had to talk about it I wasn'tashamed of it.
I just, yeah, I just didn't, Ijust didn't, I didn't care.
I liked who I liked.
I did what I did and I am who Iam.
Love that.
And, and so to like have thatneed to come out, I never did.
(23:33):
And then we kind of startedhaving these conversations a bit
more and I was like, oh yeah, bythe way, I'm totally bisexual
and.
And it was really cute and healready knew, you know what I
mean?
It wasn't a surprise to him.
But I do think that that's whatinitially like kick started it
was.
This is who I am.
(23:54):
You accept me for who I am.
But I, I would like the chanceto explore what that means.
And, and he was very open andunderstanding, but no, we, we
definitely didn't go About it inthe most like efficient way.
We thought that we found someonethat had gone through this
process before.
And so we thought that that wasour parachute.
(24:14):
They've done this.
They're our guide.
Let's let them take a good wayto learn to that.
I think that was a smart thingto think.
Yeah,
it can be,
it can be.
Yes.
And, and, and then you, you kindof hit the nail on the head,
emotions.
Kickstarted very deep emotionsgot kickstarted and, and on both
(24:36):
parties.
And so it was something that wehad to recognize and understand
within ourselves to be able tostep back and realize, okay, I
like this aspect, but maybe notthis aspect.
Mm.
No.
And so it, it, it did take uslike diving in a little bit more
to even understand what ourboundaries were.
(24:56):
And so
Casey (24:58):
yeah, I think we got caught.
We got caught up in theexperience of it first at the
time.
Sure.
Kari (25:02):
We did.
It was the worst.
We were like, hell yeah.
Fox (25:05):
so exciting to open up and discover your, and I think
that's why people rush in.
And Carrie, I just wanna saylike, I love your story of
coming out.
And I had a similar experienceof not naming it.
But think about it.
Straight people don't name it.
They just live it.
You were just living yourfucking life.
When I think I came out once inmy thirties, I was like, I'm
bisexual.
(25:26):
And everyone's like, yeah, weknow.
And I was like, okay.
And then the next day I forgotbecause my life was so filled
with trauma and survival that Ididn't.
I wasn't able to have theprivilege of being like, well,
for me it would've been aprivilege to have the freedom in
my mind to be like, yeah, I'mexploring this.
I just was focused on surviving.
And then now recently, I waslike, Mm-Hmm.
I think I'm like fluid and mypartner's like, I dunno.
(25:48):
And I was like, well on, onGoogle it says I'm fluid.
I, I was like, yeah.
Quiz.
And
Kari (25:54):
this is what it told Medcom.
Yeah,
Fox (25:58):
I love how everyone already knows we're open and they're,
yeah.
Like Casey's telling you, yeah,I already knew that.
And you're like, Oh, but it's sofun.
Some, some people love labelsand some don't.
It is so fun.
I enjoy labels right now andI'll, I get rid of them and use
them as I please.
But, oh man, I have so many, Ihave pansexual, panromantic,
auto sexual, sapiosexual, ecosexual, panromantic, I just love
(26:23):
labels.
Casey (26:25):
Well, that's what we, I mean, we had discussed
previously, we talked about the,how important the use of GSRD.
is whenever it comes to justhaving conversations with, with
potential dating partners oranything like that, we would
talk about normalizing asopposed to being like, you know,
I'm having a conversation, I'mfiguring it out if we click, but
how casually we can be like,Hey, if you don't mind sharing
(26:47):
with me, and we'll recap for anylistener that doesn't remember
this, but our GSR D.
Being our gender, our sexualityand our relationship diversity
to be
able to casually bring that in to be like, Hey, if you
don't mind me asking, like, whatis your GSRD?
And then be able to be like, Oh,in actuality here, let me lay it
all out on the, on the table foryou so we can figure out if we
(27:08):
click together.
And this is something thatthat'll work out well, or if
you're like, Oh, you know, I'm.
Partial to this or not that.
And it's just a really good wayto not make any assumptions
about anybody or to just tolearn more about them.
Are
Fox (27:21):
there any identities you'd like to share so they don't have
to out themselves if they're notready.
But gosh, I love my identitiesright now.
They're so fun, but some peopledon't feel safe to share their
identities.
And I want to honor that too,wherever they are in their
journey.
Casey (27:35):
Yeah, for sure.
Fox (27:37):
I know we got our topic of polyamory.
This is fine.
This is fine.
No, this is,
Casey (27:40):
this is what our show is about.
We're, we're, we're trying tomake.
Super relaxed and be able totalk about whatever we want to
talk about.
We have that like core topic andif it just shifts around, and
then
Fox (27:51):
it just like rains.
I love that.
Casey (27:53):
Exactly.
So then let's talk about people.
Let's go back to, to beginners,people that are just opening up
their, their longtermrelationship.
What are some good.
Let's call them reflectionquestions, stuff that they might
be able to ask themselves andtheir partners to figure out how
they're going to begin tonavigate this wild ride.
(28:15):
That is polyamory.
Fox (28:16):
Wild, wild, terrifying, beautiful, sexy.
Yeah.
Okay.
So why do you want to open up?
Why do you want to open up withthe person that you're trying to
open up with?
How do y'all think it willchange you and evolve you?
How will you grieve the loss ofmonogamy?
Cause monogamy has so muchimplicit innate, kind of innate
security and safety in it.
(28:38):
So how are you going to agree?
Cause when you start to shift,there is a loss.
And it is.
Mm-Hmm.
It's good to be unsettling toyour brain and your nervous
system.
How are you gonna help eachother soothe and regulate if you
big emotions come up?
Because I think a lot of peopleare intellectualizing polyamory
these days.
Mm-Hmm.
And they're trying to be thegood polyamorous person and not
have jealousy.
You're gonna have jealousy.
Let's plan for it.
(28:59):
Mm-Hmm.
how are we going to manage newrelationship energy?
Because you can get selfobsessed.
So you want to be able to manageit if the other person's not
going through it.
How do you want to, do you wantto set up rituals?
That help us stay connected andwhat parts of our relationship
are we going to be able to allowto be changed and open?
(29:20):
Because I think people are like,Oh, it's not going to change
anything.
We'll still have this.
And it's like, bitch, you arefucking with your whole fucking
dynamic in a good way.
But also let some room in forthings to morph.
Are you going to be able totake, do you know how to take
breaks?
What if it's too intense and youdon't want to do it?
Can you say no?
What are your agreements?
What are your boundaries?
(29:40):
Can we do weekly check ins?
What was the question again?
No, you just keep on going.
Casey (29:46):
This is great.
We're talking about
reflecting
questions for beginners, for these people to be like,
Hey, here's some things I shouldask myself as well as I should
ask my partner andclarifications that could be
made.
Cause you've already given us afucking
Fox (30:00):
so many.
How do you foresee yourselfoperating in polyamory?
What are you going to do if yourpartner's dating and you're not?
Yeah.
So just staying connected,staying compassionate.
How are you going to have timeto yourself?
Because all of a sudden ifyou've got multiple lovers, you
might feel really overwhelmed.
So you've got to have goodboundaries.
You've got to say yes toyourself.
So yeah.
Gosh, there's so many I couldjust keep going.
(30:22):
It's so.
Casey (30:23):
You've done well so far.
In
Kari (30:25):
the past we've talked a lot about check ins and I do
think that check ins are superimportant, especially when
you're first starting out.
And our check ins would havebeen something as simple as
like, Oh, I chatted with thisperson today, or I.
Chatted with this person, but Ido feel like whatever works for
y'all as a couple works for you.
You know what I mean?
Like, there's no script.
(30:47):
Exactly.
There, there really isn't.
If y'all sit down and y'all bothdecide you want to be open.
I think the biggest advice thatwe like to give is just start
slow.
You know, started in slow, go ona date together.
Go on these dating appstogether, sit down and, and have
a night where y'all scrollthrough and be like, Ooh, I like
her.
I like him.
Yep.
Yep.
(31:07):
Nope.
Yep.
You Aspect of it, which canreally get it kind of like
moving and evolving intosomething more.
Casey (31:19):
Well, it brings them that we can, like you're talking
about, if you're going to docheck ins deciding on how often
are you going to check in?
Is this like, Hey, let's checkin once a week.
And you tell me about theconversations you had.
And I tell you about the onesthat I had, is it going to be
daily?
Is it going to be like, as soonas you open up a conversation
with somebody, because to usearly on in the, in the
beginning of a lot of this, Isit can be, it can be hectic.
(31:42):
It can be scary and you can havea lot of worry for your, your
partner and you can have a lotof, of feelings of envy pop up
and be like, who are theytalking to?
Well, how much are they talkingor how far is their conversation
going?
What are the.
Fox (31:56):
Like starting to compare yourself and feeling like you
have to compete and you mightlose something.
And all of a sudden, like you'vebeen in this established
relationship that was prettysafe and secure.
And now you're opening back upto that dating mindset, which
brings up like those nervousfeelings of how you're being
perceived and how far is thisgoing to go?
And Oh my God, now you have arelationship with someone else.
And it's so, I mean, I justthink, yeah.
Casey (32:19):
And I mean, I love that you had said this earlier.
You talked about whenever aperson.
One of the people in thisrelationship starts dating more
than the other person.
Maybe one of the partners is notgetting.
You know, the, the connectionsthat they were looking for.
Yeah.
And it's, it is, they're justkind of down here while the
other person is scheduling outmultiple dates a week and they
(32:39):
have juggling all theseconversations and all these
people.
And now you look at that and go,okay, well, what am I supposed
to do now?
Because you're
starting to feel like, well, maybe this wasn't a good
idea.
Maybe I, maybe we should justshut the whole thing down.
And that's not the way to goabout doing it.
Fox (32:55):
Yeah.
That's when you want to lean in.
That's, that's where you takeout the intel exit.
Okay.
Intellectualization of polyamoryand you lean into the feelings
and you talk about, Hey, I'mfeeling like a little lonely or
I'm having FOMO and can wereconnect or you go within
yourself?
Like, okay, what are mystrengths?
How do I want to connect?
Can I connect with my community?
Cause polyamory can beisolating.
(33:17):
We have to have a community andresources, educate yourself,
read and do blogs, but like goodsexual health alliance has a
community bloom does these areall in 19.
We ho.
And then sex positive LosAngeles, like meet other people
and have your little tribe oflike minded people.
But yeah, I wanted to touch tooon something that Carrie said
(33:37):
about the script of non ofconsensual non monogamy and not
having one That's like such ablessing and a curse because we
don't really know how tonavigate it because there is no
script But we have the freedomof creating a script But yeah If
you have an established loverlike someone that you've been
with and maybe it's a primaryYou two get to write the script
or if you're doing it on solo orwhatever.
However, you're doing polyamoryYou Write what you want it to
(33:59):
look like and what you expectand what you wish and how you
want to show up as a polyamorousperson.
And then you might have to checksome of your thoughts to align
with how you want to behave.
And that's the part where we goslow and we practice and we have
immense compassion forourselves.
You are gonna fuck up.
I love that you two are like, wefucked up.
That's absolutely gonna happen.
How are you gonna repair?
(34:20):
Because accidents will be made.
Casey (34:22):
And if your relationship is not strong enough, this goes
back to that whole thing ofwhen, why to open up and why not
to open up because yourrelationship is not strong
enough and you go into this andyou do fuck up and then you find
yourself unable to repair thatrelationship
and then
you break up and now you put out the message to the
world.
Polyamory ruined myrelationship.
In reality, you were already ona crash course and to begin
(34:45):
with,
and
you're now blaming something, which people tend to
do, they're blaming somethingelse.
Outside the relationship forfucking everything up.
Fox (34:52):
Yeah.
And let's just name, there areso many happy polyamorous
relationships.
So many just like monogamy.
And then there are many that arestruggling just like monogamy.
Casey (35:01):
Yeah.
Guess
Fox (35:03):
what?
The common denominator ispeople.
Relationships are hard.
No one teaches us how to dothem, but we are taught
monogamy.
Through the mainstream and themedia and our parents usually,
but gosh, it's going to be soexciting in the future when
people are like, Oh yeah, myparents are polyamorous and now
they are like, that's going tobe fun.
Casey (35:23):
I know we always have this behind the scenes
conversation because I mean,we're, we're both set up
cinephiles.
So we watch a lot of movies, wedo all this and we consistently
see in, in like pop culture withrelationships blooming and dying
and all this.
And you have everybody puttingit through the monogamous lens.
And so in our heads, we're like,I'm.
Guarantee you, if we were ableto take a peek behind the
curtain, like celebrities lives,I would bet there's an insanely
(35:47):
high percentage of them that arejust polyamorous.
And don't talk.
Fox (35:50):
Hell yeah.
And don't call it that.
It depends on the generationtoo.
I've noticed like oldergenerations.
They're like, Oh, I don't usethat term.
They, they just live it.
And then younger generations aremore like claiming these labels.
Either all, all those optionsare valid.
I was thinking about that moviebandits.
Have you ever seen that?
Casey (36:06):
No.
Fox (36:06):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
Okay, I'm really glad with thisone.
But this is an older movie, butit's Bruce Willis.
Billy Bob Thornton and Kate areI forgot her name.
I'm not going to say anythingelse cause I don't want to spoil
or alert it.
But when I saw that and I didn'thave the name for polyamory, I
remember watching it and I waslike, Oh, I just felt like my
(36:29):
body was like, yes.
And I didn't know what it meant,but you'll see, I'm not going to
spoil it.
Everyone go watch bandits.
It's so good.
What's her name?
Yeah.
Kate.
No, no.
Okay.
Anyway.
Casey (36:42):
Put it on a list.
Kari (36:43):
Yeah, because we plan on having, so we'll definitely
watch it before the next timethat we chat.
After you watch it, text me.
Deal.
Or take a
Fox (36:52):
picture of yourselves watching it.
We'll just be
Kari (36:53):
texting you during it and be like, Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I would love that.
Please do it.
Casey (37:00):
So, so then do you, do you feel like whenever it comes
to having multiple partners thatthere should be some ultimate
goal or attainable thing thatyou're trying to reach, or do
you feel like it's just aboutfree love and experiencing life
as you see fit?
Fox (37:17):
Gosh, that's a really good question.
I think some people really wantto relationship escalate
naturally.
Like some people are naturallymonogamous.
Some people naturally are like,Oh, I really want to have babies
and live with all these people.
So that could be your goalbecause you feel that in your
soul that like you foreseeyourself having five kids and
living with 17 people.
And then other people might belike, I just want to have
(37:38):
freedom my whole life and kindof hop around.
But as long as there'scompassion and transparent
compassion for self and othersand that consent piece, I think
you're good.
I don't think there needs to bea goal and that's why I love
polyamory.
The, the goal with monogamy isget married, have kids.
The goal with polyamory is love,relate, be intimate, be kind.
(38:00):
And if something's ending, talkabout it and take care of each
other.
That's how I see polyamory.
(38:21):
I'm waiting for you to, to comeback.
It looks like you're listeningso attentively to me, but really
you've been frozen for a while.
We might have to restart stillrecording now.
Okay.
I'll, I'll exit too.
(39:24):
I was shocked.
Casey (39:28):
Would you like to?
Nope.
Go ahead.
Me.
It's me, me.
It's on me.
Got it.
Kari (39:33):
You got this.
Casey (39:33):
Oh no.
I love the fact that you, youtalk about the ability to not
have to adhere to some sort oftrack that you're able to just
kind of like, I like, I like, Ilike ride the wave.
You can decide as things comeup, it doesn't have to be.
You go from point A to B to C toD and then you check the boxes
off the list because you've beentold your entire life that
(39:54):
that's what's supposed to makeyou happy and successful.
Fox (39:57):
I mean, right.
It's like, it's not, it'sfamiliar to capitalism.
And like Western colonizedculture, right?
To be like, now we do this.
Now we do this.
What about just relating andconnecting and just being
present?
Like, what about being presentin polyamory?
It's the way you practice it, Ithink, cause it's a moving,
evolving type of love
(40:17):
where
you are really, it's so relational, right?
Yeah.
Casey (40:22):
Well, there's, I mean, there's, there's just so, it's
such a deep concept.
It's, it's an amazing thing todiscuss because it goes so much
deeper, whatever you're talkingabout, whatever you bring up
into it, like, Western cultureand capitalism and things like
that.
This can generate a lot of fearand anxiety in people.
Because we are told we aredelivered a message from the
(40:43):
time we're born to the time thatwe die of this is what your life
is supposed to look like up onthe screen in big letters that
this this doing these thingsmeans you're happy doing these
things means that you'resuccessful stray away from that.
You're not a good, yeah, there'ssomething wrong with you.
And then the way that you wouldsee it, like in a sci fi movie
(41:03):
would be like, you are not agood citizen.
Kari (41:06):
Well, I mean, think about even when we grow up and it's
like, okay, well, what do youwant to be when you grow up?
Oh, okay.
So you want to be a nurse.
Okay.
So you're a nurse and that's it.
You don't get to be.
Anything else?
Yeah.
One thing, one thing you pickedit and that's all you got.
And you better not say artist ormusician,
Fox (41:25):
you better say like doctor or something like,
Kari (41:29):
but I do think that this like younger generation has
really taught us that like, andlike the, this whole like
entrepreneur concept.
Right.
But like, that was reallyeyeopening.
And I think that's why so manyof millennials got like shit on
because we're like, No, we arenot going to do just that one
thing.
We're going to be able to domultiple things because we have
(41:51):
multiple abilities within us asa human that is not going to be
defied.
Yeah.
Around one occupation.
Right.
Casey (42:00):
Is the same reason why older generations look at us and
go, you are fucking things upbecause we're making them
uncomfortable.
Kari (42:07):
I love making them uncomfortable.
That's my favorite.
Favorite demographic to makethat
Fox (42:12):
is my kink.
I'm like, hi, I'm BIPOC,polyamorous and queer.
Hi.
What do you have to say aboutit?
Yeah.
Say something to my face.
Kari (42:22):
I'm covered in tattoos.
Boom.
Yes.
And I love you.
I love your tattoos on yourlegs.
Thank you.
I got so many.
I don't even know how many Ihave at this point.
You
Casey (42:34):
want to pull your leg up?
Kari (42:35):
I have some, but it's too hard to see.
You can come count them for me.
I have no idea how many I have.
But I love that.
They're so beautiful.
But I'm just saying like the,the, the concept of, if you look
at the fact that your occupationis not the occupation, you're
going to have the rest of yourlife, maybe do the exact same
thing to your relationship.
(42:55):
You can do other things thanwhat was like pre like shoved
into our brains that like, no,no, no, this is what we have to
do.
And this is our only option.
And I do give so much applaud tothis younger generation that
have come out and said, this iswho I am.
This is what I'm going to do.
Fuck your mold.
Fuck your system.
Yes.
And, and now I feel like us islike millennials and older
(43:17):
millennials.
We're really like.
That's a great idea.
How else can we utilize theseconcepts of not being stuck in
this mold?
And I think that if you look atyour life as like a career, you
can look at your relationshipthe same way.
You don't have to be stuck inone concept just because you're
a race thinking one way doesn'tmean that you can evolve and
(43:40):
understand other joys in lifethan just what we were brought
up to think.
Fox (43:45):
Yeah, I love what you're saying.
And this just connects to assoon as you start to like
question sexuality and how youhave sex and why and your
pleasure and you start to ownit.
I think it fucks everything upin the paradigm that you exist
in.
And all of a sudden you're like,Oh my God, I own my pleasure.
I own my body.
Wait a minute, what am I, am Idoing all the things that
(44:06):
someone else told me?
What do I value about what I'vebeen taught?
And how do I really see myself?
Because we're fucking like multidimensional beings.
Why would we ever do one thing?
I do so many things.
I even approach therapy as anart that's like colorful and
queer and like spicy.
I don't know how to just do onething.
I've never fit into a box and Inever want to.
And I do make peopleuncomfortable.
(44:28):
And it's my kink.
That's not my problem, but Ithink I'm also inspiring them on
some level
Kari (44:34):
and you are definitely inspiring them.
Fox (44:36):
Right.
We're tickling something inpeople that wakes them up and
reminds them they are soexpansive.
They can love any way they wish,
but
it's scary too because then you have to go back on the way
your mind is like, you know,conditioned to not be shamed.
Casey (44:49):
And rewiring that is a complex process.
It's one of the reasons why.
We're, we're online and we see alot of, a lot of coaches, sexual
sexuality and sex coaches thatare out there and that are
spouting advice and a lot.
So there's some good stuff.
There's also a lot of scarystuff.
You're supposed to be in it andit's, it's, it's just this whole
(45:10):
mix.
And so for us looking at it,it's really, really, that's the
time whenever we're like, look,if you're trying to, really
deconstruct the very core valuesthat we grew up with.
Yeah.
Of, of things like monogamy.
That's whenever it's importantto team up with like a really
good therapist
that can
help you do it because navigating that on your own can
(45:31):
be potentially hazardous,especially when you live in the
era of information.
Whenever we have access to Allof it.
It's you're literally giving a,giving a child explosives and
saying, play with these.
Yeah.
Fox (45:44):
Yeah.
Because that exciting part ofpolyamory is like, yeah, let's
do it.
Let's open up.
And then we forget our nervoussystem is conditioned to think
one way is the good way, thesafe way, the secure way.
Two books I love.
Oh, I don't have them on myshelf right now, but Jessica
Fern's new poly wise is so good.
I'm writing a book.
Hello.
I'm writing a book.
Yes.
(46:05):
Yes.
I'll let you know when it's out.
I'm still writing it.
Oh, absolutely.
You gotta
Casey (46:08):
let us know.
Yeah,
Kari (46:09):
cause we'll have
Fox (46:10):
to have
Kari (46:10):
you back on to talk about it.
Fox (46:11):
Oh my gosh, please.
Thank you.
And then Martha Kelpy wrote abook too.
Her book is for clinicians, liketherapists, but it's also for
polyamorous people.
But I would say it is a littlemore clinically written, but
that's the shit you're going tolearn when you're in therapy.
So I think I go to the root ofhow do I change my thinking and
my perception of myself?
How do I increase my selfesteem?
I see y'all laughing.
(46:32):
What's going on?
Casey (46:33):
That's, that's because that's what I do.
I'll get recommendations frompeople that are like, Hey, Oh,
read this book on, like we had,we had somebody more recently be
like, we were talking aboutinternal family systems.
And so we had talked a littlebit and so they'd been like,
Hey, read this book on partswork.
And
so I went, I went through parts work and like an afternoon
(46:56):
and then completely like shiftedgears.
And said, you know what, I'mgoing to go ahead.
And I, so I picked up internalfamily systems by Richard
Schwartz.
Yes.
And so, I dove into that andthat one for me, like on the,
from the clinician side ofthings just spoke so much more
depth, like the actual how andwhy behind it, and I would just
(47:18):
felt so much more connected todoing things like that.
And I tend to do that with allof the stuff that we recently.
Does you yeah, you
Kari (47:24):
were like the most permanent student I've ever
known in my entire life And Iadmire the shit out of you about
that and I'm over here likelistening to smut books and he's
over here doing like But youcompliment each other.
This is the beautiful so funny.
Y'all can compliment each otherin this way.
It's beautiful Oh, for
Casey (47:43):
sure.
Because what we ultimately wantis the other to feel joy, right?
Kari (47:47):
Yeah.
Casey (47:48):
Which brings me to that, that next topic that we have.
And that's the biggest topic ofcompersion.
For people that don't understandwhat compersion is, it's
literally the, the, the joy thatyou get from watching your
partner experience joy withinand then we use it within
polyamory as a way to be like,I'm receiving joy by watching my
(48:10):
partner, like happy.
Whatever they engage with otherpeople, whatever way that may
be.
But I, you actually experiencingjoy from your partner's joy.
And it's such an important and,and, and large thing to try to
do, but it can be difficult too.
So what tips do you have forpeople trying to introduce
themselves to, to compersion andhow they can access these, these
(48:34):
feelings?
Fox (48:35):
You know, it's the first thing I'm going to do is like
say, Oh fuck, I don't know if wecan access compersion.
We can just set up the contextto hope that it happens kind of
like a orgasm.
You can't force an orgasm.
It's like a sneeze.
It's like a response, but youcan set up the context around it
to increase the likelihood itwill happen.
So I want to say like compersionis that fulfillment, like you
(48:57):
fulfilled seeing your lover befulfilled.
It's like, Oh, you're beingloved.
I love that.
So not everyone's going toexperience that.
And it doesn't mean you're doingpolyamory right or wrong at all.
You may never experience, youmay experience it all the time,
but to set up the context tomake it more.
To more likely to happen.
I think Dr.
Eli SCH talks about thisactually is having safety,
(49:18):
security, and power in equality,shared power in equality, safety
and security.
If those are increased in yourrelationship and strong, I think
it's more likely you willexperience conversion if you
haven't yet.
So let that motivate you.
Okay.
But if you never experience,that's okay.
Casey (49:33):
Yeah.
Well, I love that link.
I love that link that you talkedabout with it being contextually
appropriate.
I mean, we, we talk about thatoften whenever it comes to sex
and you know, we have peoplelike Emily Nagoski out there who
like centers.
I'm
Kari (49:47):
just going to keep doing commercials.
We're going to be screenshottingall of these.
Come
Casey (49:55):
as you are was a great book.
Her, her newest one cometogether was a fantastic read.
It was just released in January.
Fox (50:02):
Oh, okay.
I'm gonna have to get that.
And then this one's great forsetting boundaries.
Cause you're going to need a lotof.
Ability to set boundaries whenyou, and what's that one?
This is set boundaries, findpeace by Nedra Glover to walk.
And she's a BIPOC fan, so I'malways uplifting my community,
but that's a great one because Imeet a lot of people that
(50:22):
struggle with polyamory becauseit's really hard.
Like if they have like peoplepleasing tendencies and have
trouble setting boundaries, youcan polyamory.
But anyways, I'm sorry.
See how I just.
Completely got off track.
Where were we?
Casey (50:35):
By all means, you could continue with any of that.
Where are you at?
Fox (50:38):
We're
Kari (50:40):
talking
Casey (50:42):
about compersion and the context and creating the context
instead of trying to go for itdirectly and just navigate your
way to it.
But I like that you said that
Kari (50:50):
not everyone's going to ever experience that because I
feel like you get like theselike expectations that like, no,
there'll, there'll come a pointthat I, I'm so, I don't know.
Satisfied by seeing himsatisfied.
But I do love that you say that,like, because that is an
unrealistic expectation thatjust means that it doesn't mean
that what is happening is wrongto mean you may not experience
(51:11):
that within the poly world.
Fox (51:14):
Yes.
And I need to do a video.
I do little videos on thepolyamory therapist on like
Instagram and TikTok.
I need to do one on this becauseI think that's part of the
intellectualization of polyamoryand the good polyamory theory
that I have.
The good polyamorous.
theory I have, where we'retrying to do it as if it's on an
app and there's buttons and weshould be acting certain ways.
(51:35):
Hello emotions.
We cannot control them.
We can navigate them and copewith them and understand them
and lean into them.
But polyamory is full of bigemotions.
So compersion may or may nothappen.
Jealousy may or may not happen.
If it does, how can we creaseit?
How can we navigate it?
It's like, that's my therapistbrain, but that actually does
help.
Like I do it to myself all thetime.
(51:56):
I therapize my own brain.
I'm not supposed to.
Kari (52:00):
It's kind of hard not to though.
When you have the information,you kind of turn it on yourself.
When
Casey (52:06):
you watch it, when you watch it helps so many people so
often, then you kind of go,well, I'll just use it on
myself.
Let's do that.
Fox (52:12):
Yes.
Oh, I'm fucking with cognitivebehavioral therapy right now.
I'm just like, Ooh, what thoughtdid I just think that made me
feel like fucking shit?
Okay.
Oh my God.
That was that thought.
Well, I don't have to make itlike, Oh my God, you're amazing
and beautiful.
No, I just need a neutralthought.
I'm a good person.
I'm doing my best.
I can't control what they thinkof me.
And I'll be like, Oh my God, allof a sudden I'll feel my nervous
(52:34):
system, like leave the threatand be like, Oh, I'm okay.
And I'm like, shit, this shitworks.
And I just practice, practice,practice.
Okay, go ahead.
Casey (52:43):
No, no, that's, that's, that's awesome.
We love talking about that.
Again, as we set up the, thecontext for it, that also allows
you, as you said, navigate theemotions.
Stop, stop worrying about if theemotions are going to happen and
start, Focusing more on how canI, when they are occurring, can
I a recognize that I'm havingthe emotion in the first place?
(53:05):
Can I be then take that emotionand figure out how I can get to
maybe the next closest emotionto it
Kari (53:11):
brings me
Casey (53:12):
back towards happiness, right?
Kari (53:13):
If
Casey (53:15):
I'm in a place of anger, I can think about what emotions
lie closest to anger for me
and then
try to move myself.
And instead of trying to go fromangry to happy, Or from angry to
this way, the fuck over here.
Kari (53:29):
Take a small
Casey (53:30):
step just to the next emotion.
Kari (53:31):
And
Casey (53:32):
even if that, even if that motion is not a positive
one, just take a step to thenext one and then find out
what's next to that.
And next to that, until you cannavigate your way back out of
that dark hole that you're inand into something brighter.
Fox (53:43):
Oh, that dark hole.
And it just, it makes me thinkabout, and I just want to say
this because I know we're goingto end soon.
Our
bodies perceive a lot of things as threat.
And when that happens, we gointo fight, flight, fight,
fight, fawn, or freeze.
And then our rational brain hasshut down.
Yes.
Polyamory can be a threat because our nervous system is
like, Oh my God, you're about tolose your beloved.
(54:05):
What the fuck are you doing?
They're out with someone else.
You need to compete.
All this shit comes up and wehave to find a way to regulate
ourselves, self soothe, ask forsupport, and check in.
Is there evidence that I'm inthreat right now?
And help your brain come back.
And I think sometimes at the,like that primal panic, Jessica
Fern talks about andpolysaccharide, yeah, the
(54:25):
nervous system and theattachment shit is real.
And that's why therapy, like atherapist who is poly friendly
or polyamorous or a polyadvocate is really good because
we can help.
Like help people kind of buildsome new skills around
polyamory.
Yeah.
Casey (54:40):
Well, you don't, you don't always have the ability to
recognize what's going on.
I mean, that comes from the factthat whenever you enter into
these states, we have decreasedblood flow and decreased
activity in the prefrontalcortex, right?
So now that logical brain It'sjust, and so now you're in the
Chilean brain, your amygdala isfiring up.
You have all these other piecesthat are just firing negativity
(55:02):
into your head and you don'tnecessarily recognize because
logic's out the window thatyou're in that state.
And so you react emotionally.
Kari (55:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you were like, yeah,
Casey (55:11):
exactly.
If we can start to recognize wecan start to have a plan in
place to recognize it.
Fox (55:16):
Thank you.
Yeah.
And compassion for ourselves.
We're just human.
We're human beings.
We're really fragile and we justwant to be loved, seen and
heard.
Really?
Exactly.
At the end of the day.
That's a good place to,
Casey (55:29):
I was going to say it at that.
I think that we're going to,we're going to bring the
interview to a conclusion.
This is One by for those thatdidn't already know it, that
we're sitting down here with FoxEros.
As we talk about polyamory,we've covered a number of things
today and we're going to cumber,cumber, cumber,
cumber,
cumber, cumber.
We're
going
Kari (55:48):
to come as you are.
Casey (55:53):
Thank you.
Emily Nagoski for that one.
But on our, on our next time,our interview part two, we're
going to be covering a littlebit more about things like the
issues within, within gendersand issues within some of these
very, very real emotions thatpop up with polyamory.
So stay tuned next time foranother episode of come with
Casey.
We're your hosts.
I'm Dr.
Casey Sanders
Kari (56:12):
and I'm Carrie Sanders.
I'll
Casey (56:14):
see you next time.
Fox (56:15):
See you next time.
I'm Fox arrows.
Bye.
Find me on the polyamorytherapists.
com.
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