April 26, 2024 • 50 mins
Welcome to part 2 of The Poly Pocket with returning special guest, Fox Eros, The Polyamory Therapist!
Fox Eros (M.A., AMFT), known as 'The Polyamory Therapist' has earned a reputation as an incandescent, deeply empathetic and passion filled Psychotherapist, Writer and Speaker. She has a Master’s Degree in Marriage Family Therapy and is an expert in Consensual Non-Monogamous Relationships and Sex Therapy. She is currently at work on her first book about polyamory and is a contributing writer and educator in the polyamory field. Fox continues to be sought out to help individuals and people in relationships with life stress, self-worth, identity, impacts of trauma, sex and intimacy related topics.
Fox identifies as a pansexual, panromantic, polyamorous, multi-ethnic, Black Girl Magic, BIPOC femme person; and lives on the land of the Chumash and Gabrielino-Tongva First Peoples. Her pleasures include being a Beloved, forest bathing, sun dancing, anything chocolate & peanut butter, and crushing on our infinite Universe. Also, rainbows.
Connect with Fox on social media @thepleasurefox or her website https://www.foxerosinlove.com/.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Casey (00:00):
welcome back to come with Casey.
(00:02):
As always, we are your hosts.
I'm Dr.
Casey Sanders.
Back for part two of polyamorywith the Fox Eros Fox, how you
doing?
FOX (00:12):
Hi.
I don't know why I wanted to sayhi like that.
Hi everyone.
Casey (00:19):
I know.
I almost feel like we, if youhaven't listened to part one, we
highly encourage you to go back.
We had some great conversationabout opening up relationships
and about the pitfalls that comewith it.
Why to do it?
Why not to do it?
It was a whole damnconversation.
Kari (00:32):
Well, and that's really what brought us to wanting to
have a part two.
Cause there's no way that we cantalk about everything that we
want to talk about in oneepisode.
So thank you so much for comingback.
Um, and we have even morequestions and more to dive into
for today.
First of all, how are you doingtoday?
FOX (00:49):
I'm good.
It's my pleasure to be here.
I love you too.
And look at, I'm wearing this inhonor of, aren't you doing like
rope, our Shabari classes?
Like what classes are you doing?
I love
Kari (00:58):
you
FOX (00:58):
so
Kari (00:58):
much.
He was like, should we talkabout the class?
I'm like, we're not promotingour class on our call.
And I'm not even promoting it.
I'm just saying,
FOX (01:07):
yeah, I'm okay.
So for those of you that can'tsee, I'm wearing a pink bow
around my neck, like I'm alittle gift.
And it kind of reminds me oflike something a little kinky,
So it's super cute.
So I was like, Oh, this is anhonor of them.
So yeah, tell me, I wanted yourclasses very sexy.
Casey (01:23):
Yes.
So we are the Shabari class thatwe're hosting and we want to
emphasize this.
It is an introductory class.
So I've myself, I've been, uh,I've been a rigger for the last,
what, year and a half.
And, but my extensive knowledgeof anatomy and physiology put
together with that has allowedus to create a class
specifically for couples
FOX (01:43):
so they can
Casey (01:44):
learn how to do some sexy bedroom ties, make it a little
bit more erotic, and get a goodintroduction to do it in a safe
and sexy way.
FOX (01:51):
And what about threples and quads?
Can they come too?
Casey (01:55):
Yes, they can actually show our, whenever we, what we
do have it let down.
Our, we do have tickets put downfor couples and then we have
extra tickets.
So individuals can come, uh, andthey can either, you know,
Kari (02:07):
Cause that allowing where you get like two tickets or you
can get one ticket.
So there is three or there isfour.
You just end up buying the twotickets together.
And then we're going to gothrough and talk a lot about
like prior consent.
Um, and then if people arecomfortable with maybe going
outside their little group, um,it's something that we're all
going to discuss beforehand.
(02:27):
Um, so it's not only going to bea shibari class, but it's going
to be like a proper etiquetteclass and not doing anything
kinky.
Because a lot of these peopleare coming in, maybe not
experiencing any level of kink.
So yeah, a big portion early on,like he was saying is going to
be obviously the anatomy of thebody, where to tie, where not to
tie and then how to askpermission to tie.
(02:48):
And honestly, it's been greatfor me because he's been tying
me up the last few nights.
Practice all the different timesin the class.
I'm like, Hey, babe, don't youneed to practice?
Oh,
FOX (03:02):
you can practice on me.
And I
Kari (03:06):
love
FOX (03:07):
the consent piece because people who aren't in the kink
community, like consent isreally heavy in the kink
community, more so in the nonkink community.
Like it, you need to have a hellyes on consent.
things and we need safetysignals and if I want to stop or
take it slow, I need aftercare.
Those things are so importantwith pink.
And um, I'm just really excited.
(03:27):
Yeah.
The photos are really beautifuland sexy.
Casey (03:31):
We've been getting more inquiries from like local models
and from photographers who arelike, Hey, would you like to
work with us?
So it's really opened up thiswhole door.
for us to be able to be like,cool, we now have this extensive
way to interact further with thecommunity in a way that allows
us to build a social circle andhave a lot of fun through the
art of shabari.
FOX (03:49):
And I don't think that people, and this, the reason
we're talking about kink isbecause it's intersects with
polyamory, like kink, queer, allof these things that are
beautiful, magical combination.
So this absolutely has to dowith polyamory folks.
We might get into some kinks andkinks not only sex.
It's like a psychologicalthrill.
It's like emotional.
It's a way to connect But um,yeah, I wanted to say a few
(04:13):
things I first want to honor theland that I'm on of the Chumash
and Gabrielino Tongva firstpeoples I always like to honor
that and yes, my name is FoxEros.
I'm also polyamory therapist andYeah, if you didn't hear, um,
episode one, please! It's sogood! But if you're a rebel and
you want to listen to this onefirst and then that one, I think
(04:33):
we should define polyamoryagain.
And then I also wanted to sharesome of my identities.
I'm pansexual, queer, I'm superfucking panromantic, and then
I'm BIPOC, black girl magic,multi ethnic, And I'm sure I
could come up with more labels,but I'll stop there.
And then let's define polyamoryjust in case people are okay.
(04:55):
So polyamory, it fits under theethical non monogamy umbrella.
It's one type of ethical nonmonogamy and it's the type that
involves emotional connectionand intimacy.
So it's not just sex, likeswinging.
And there has to be a hell yesto wanting to be involved in
this kind of relationship, whichmeans it's not infidelity or
cheating.
Everybody knows everybody wantsit.
Suit, everybody agrees to havingmore than one lover.
Casey (05:17):
I know.
I, well, I already immediatelywanna dive a little bit into
that real quick.
Yeah.
'cause we see a lot of confusionwhenever people think of
polyamory and they think of abunch of people having sex and
they don't realize differencebetween something like swinging,
going out to adult clubs anddoing, getting in more into
hookup culture.
Yeah.
And it being more about thephysicality and the wild
experience.
Versus the polyamory side ofthings where it's like, no, this
(05:40):
is about building a connectionwith somebody possibly falling
in love with another person andgoing through the whole roller
coaster of a relay consensually.
FOX (05:50):
Yes.
Yeah, I love that.
You said it so well.
It's, there's like thistogetherness vibe.
Like think of a tribe.
Think of being on the same team.
Think of attuning to each other.
And you're not single.
Polyamory, you are not singleand just going out around and
doing whatever the fuck youwant.
You are considering your tribeand your lovers and your
metamors.
You don't have to likeeverybody, but you honor and
respect them.
(06:10):
And you can have orgies.
Absolutely.
Sex is fun.
Sex can be part of it if youwant to, but it's not just sex.
There's like emotional aspect.
So yeah, that's the difference.
And I love naming that cause noteverybody knows.
And that's how people sometimesget harmed.
Is there,
Kari (06:24):
I, I know some people in poly that they really focus more
on the relationships and thebonds and intercourse isn't
necessarily a part in it or notan intercourse, but any sexual
acts play a part in it.
So, so sometimes it's not.
Sex at all.
And that's the other beauty ofit is because it can be whatever
consenting adults want it to be.
FOX (06:44):
Yeah.
You get to design your fucking,you get
Kari (06:46):
to decide.
It's great.
Casey (06:48):
Recap part one, recap
FOX (06:51):
part one.
I love your outfit.
It's like a ballerina.
Kari (06:56):
Thank you.
Should I curtsy for you?
FOX (06:59):
Lavender and honey.
It's so pretty.
I love your tattoos.
We're putting our legs up.
If you can't, if you can't see,I just lifted up my
Kari (07:08):
hands with my ballerina outfit.
FOX (07:12):
Casey, you look beautiful too.
Casey (07:13):
Thank you.
Out of the two of us, I'm themuch less complimented one.
So I strongly appreciate, youknow, showing some love there.
FOX (07:23):
My pleasure.
Casey (07:24):
Look it's, I love the fact that you had said that,
cause I want to go back foragain for a second, is that I
think that a lot of people havethis it's a paradigm shift that
they have to go through wheneverthey're looking at polyamory and
then trying to imaginethemselves loving, more than one
person.
And it's the whole thing oflike, it's pushed into your head
of, and this is that wholemonogamy culture of being like,
(07:47):
Hey, you have the one person andthat's the person you're
supposed to feel theunconditional love for.
And then you tell that samegroup of people, well, it's
possible to actually feel thatsame love for more than one
person.
And then just go, what the fuckdoes that even like, you can't
even compromise.
But it's a difficult thing.
It's a grass.
It is.
I mean, you talk about peoplethat from the time that they are
(08:07):
born, they are put into aculture that it's all about
finding the one person, right?
To meet all your
FOX (08:12):
needs.
Casey (08:13):
Yes.
Soulmate that you must have thatone person.
And it's, it even takes a lot ofunlearning for people as they
grow up into adolescence for youto be like, Hey, listen, it's
okay to date somebody and have arelationship with them and
understand that marriage betweenyou two or something longterm.
a possibility or something thatyou should even strive for.
You can do, you can define yourrelationship in any way you
(08:34):
want.
And it's okay to go into arelationship and define your
terms with each other.
They'd be like, we're not tryingto lead towards marriage right
now, or even a monogamousrelationship.
Right now.
Right.
It's something that is sodifficult to like really put
through people.
FOX (08:50):
Yeah, it is because our nervous system is wired for
monogamy.
It's all that we're taught.
It's all that we're modeled.
So it has inherent safety andsecurity.
But when you think aboutmonogamy, it's like, when did
the fuck that start?
Is that like the, is that theoriginal way to love?
No, it's not.
It came in with like, It's likea social political construct
that America used to likeassimilate indigenous people and
(09:14):
kind of make it so that landwould have a way to be land and
property would have a way to bepassed down through generations.
It wasn't about love or intimacyor sex.
It was a domestic partnership.
Yeah, most times it wasarranged.
Yeah, it
Kari (09:29):
wasn't about love then.
FOX (09:30):
Yeah.
And if you think about like whowas here, like black and brown
people, they were probably moreof like in a village tribe
kinship type of thing wherethere was intimacy, shared power
and equality.
So when you go back and youthink about where monogamy
started, it doesn't mean it's ashameful thing to do, but it
also means there are many waysto love.
What, how do you want to love?
What do you value?
You love more than one friendand one, more than one child.
(09:51):
So why are we, So rigid with howmany people you can have sex
with or be intimate with, andwhy are we rigid with, I forget
what else I was gonna say, butit was gonna be really You're
just gonna
Kari (10:04):
scream
Casey (10:04):
it out a little if it comes back out there.
I mean, if I understandcorrectly, most of the
indigenous tribes that we hadhere were, uh, uh, egalitarian
style.
Is that correct?
I believe that's what it was.
I wanna, it was almost like itwasn't they appointed.
Person with a hierarchy thatwent around, it was more of that
egalitarian style.
And it was the same way withkind of with relationships.
And it wasn't until colonizationoccurred that it started
(10:26):
becoming, this is what you'resupposed to do.
Hetero, patriarchy,
FOX (10:30):
monogamy, Christian norms.
Yeah.
And I want to research thatmore.
And I don't want to speak forindigenous communities, but I
believe that, um,heterosexuality and all these
things weren't like, it wasn't,what is that word?
Um, That's like the oppressive,dominant culture now.
There are so many other ways tolove.
And there, yeah, power,equality, different types of
(10:51):
sexu Spectrums and gender, allof these things were shared and
open and expansive.
And now we're like, there's oneway.
Man, woman, main householdperson, bloop de bloop.
That's Okay.
But do you want to do that?
I mean, wouldn't it be amazingto, it's so transcendent to love
more than one person justbecause I love more than one
person.
Does that impact my other lover?
(11:12):
Does that mean I love them less?
Like how does that make you feellike I might abandon you?
Like do we need to reaffirm eachother anyway?
Casey (11:19):
I could just keep talking.
Well, and that's the beauty ofis there's so much to dive into.
And that's one of the overallmessages we like to deliver to
people who are curious aboutopening up a relationship.
Yep.
Is to that message of don't doit until you learn a little bit
about it.
Like, hold off.
It can be exciting.
It can be something you reallywant to dive into, but like,
(11:40):
take us, take a beat.
Going through some literature,joining some groups, like look
at like various ways that youcan do this because you're gonna
run into obstacles.
And we covered a little bitabout that last time.
Um, but that actually, thatleads into probably the first
question that we have for todaythat we want our topic that we
have for today.
And this is all about how toself regulate whenever you're,
(12:02):
whenever you start dating andyour partner starts dating.
We know that as you startdating, you're going to go and
we'll get into pacing on allthis in a little bit.
But whenever you first startdating and you witness your
partner starting to go on datesand get a connection with
somebody, it can be veryunsettling for people.
FOX (12:17):
Devastating.
Yeah.
Like you want to practicepolyamory and you talked about
it and you planned it and thenyou do it and you're like, I
can't breathe.
I'm panicking.
I'm like in a ball on the floor,like crying.
Even though I, my rational brainwants it.
So yeah you're, our nervoussystems, like I said, they're
wired for monogamy.
So when you talk about how doyou regulate, I want to talk
(12:39):
about why is polyamory making medysregulate?
It's because my lizard brain isperceiving a threat.
I think that I'm going to beharmed in some way, even though
I've decided to do this with myrational brain.
So we have the stress responsewhen your body perceives a real
or imagined threat of fight,fawn or freeze.
So that's like if a tiger orbears about to come and get you,
(13:01):
But there is no tiger or bear.
So it sometimes the threat, thedanger is actually imagined or
it's not super valid where it'salmost inconvenient.
Cause you're like, I actuallywant to do this.
So yes fight, fawn or freeze.
How do we regulate?
Well, first know what it feelslike when you are regulated
versus dysregulated.
So when you're regulated, yourshoulders are down.
(13:22):
You're able to hold nuance forconversations, your eyes aren't
fixated, you're breathing well,your heart's good, you know,
you're at a good pace, there'sno tension in your body, so now
figure out what it feels likewhen you're fucked up.
When you're dysregulated, it'slike the opposite, because your
body's really intelligent andit'll start to give you signs,
so track when you're in theyellow versus when you're in the
(13:44):
red.
When you're in the red, yourlizard brain has already taken
over, and you don't care.
It's going to take you a minuteto calm down.
So ways you can regulate or wecall it co regulate when you
want to do it with your partneris I say, make like a beautiful
lip, like go to Michael's artsand crafts.
I bet you didn't think I wasgoing to say something like
this.
You're like, Oh my God, where'sthis going?
(14:04):
Get a little wooden box.
One of those ones that open likea jewelry box and you're going
to fill it with reminders.
Of how to regulate because whenyou are fucked up, it's too late
You can't remember so you'regonna write shit on little
pieces of paper like this likelisten to your favorite Spotify
playstation of like 80s and 90sdance songs um the most optimal
(14:25):
way is going running or likeExercising because back in the
day if you were chased by a bearyou ran to safety and then you
went Okay, I'm not being eaten.
So if you have the accessibilityto exercise, great.
If not, um, ask your partner ifthey'll touch you or hold you or
make eye contact, if that'shelpful, there's so many ways.
Um, seeing singing, it helpsregulate your breath too.
(14:47):
I love grounding and breathingtechniques, but not everyone
loves those, but I love thoseare some
Casey (14:51):
of my favorite or breathing tech, like box
breathing for me.
And a lot of that is what I loveto do on a daily basis.
It's just everything down.
FOX (15:00):
It resets your nerve.
It sends your, it tells yourvagus nerve, I think, to tell
your brain to give whateversignal thing.
Okay.
We're resetting.
I know.
I don't know the science of it,but
Casey (15:10):
it's okay.
I got you.
FOX (15:11):
You got me like this.
Let's put your hands on yourshoulders until your head down.
That one's my favorite.
It makes me feel high and do,um, three cycles of inhale,
exhale, and your exhales longer.
So these are all little waysthat you can regulate and
normalize talking about, youknow what, I'm offline right
now.
I'm in the yellow and that's allyou have to say.
And then your partners can helpyou change temperatures like
(15:33):
getting a fucking cold shower.
Kari (15:35):
Yeah.
Okay.
That's a good one.
Casey (15:36):
I know cold shocks and everything.
It becomes so popularized.
Most people are like, I use itfor workout and recovery.
They don't realize what it cando for your emotional regulation
as well.
FOX (15:44):
Yes.
Yeah.
We got to take care of ourselvesand be compassionate because the
lizard brains, we're stillabout, it takes like millions of
years to evolve.
So it's not our fault, but wecan be accountable for it.
Yeah.
We
Casey (15:54):
want to help to draw a lot of blood back to that.
Like what we talked about lasttime, that prefrontal cortex,
right?
Yeah.
Those are brain get into logicalbrain and start realizing, Hey,
the things that I'm, thefeelings I'm feeling, are they
linked to a specific event?
Is this something that is.
Actually happening or is thissomething that I'm worried about
happening?
And am I listening to myemotions that say, Hey, that,
that, um, that, that invisibleevent.
(16:17):
It's not actually there.
Like, it's not actually there.
And then can you take a deepbreath and go, okay, I'm clearly
worrying about something thathas not happened.
What's the potential for thishappening?
My step away from the risk andmore towards being like, I'm
actually safe.
Like it's not, this isn'tactually happening right now.
So let me start to reconnectwith myself and reconnect with
(16:38):
my partner.
FOX (16:39):
What makes you feel safe and secure?
That's got to go in one of thepost it notes because That's
what regulates us.
So you just said it right thereis thinking about that before
you're just regulated.
These are the things that makeme safe and secure.
Put them in a little box, talkto your lover about it.
And you know what?
Some things will, It's validthat they activate you.
So if they keep activating, youtalk to your lover about it or
(17:01):
notice in your lover, wow, thatkeeps activating you.
Is that like, should we changeour relationship agreement?
Should I be out all night?
Is, you know, if you're openingup from an already established
relationship, cause we knowthere's many ways to be
polyamorous.
Kari (17:13):
I like that you put a call out to the other partner as
well, because we're in thistogether.
And if one person sees that anact is triggering the other
person.
I think that's beneficial tospeak up and say something.
I like that you bring that upbecause we are responsible for
ourselves.
Absolutely.
But if we're going to be a groupand we are going to do this
together, I like how you'resaying being as open, but that
(17:35):
also being as observant.
FOX (17:37):
Yeah, being aware.
That's attunement.
When you are a baby and yourcaregivers are attuning to you
psychologically, emotionally,and physically, that's how you
build your literal attachmentstyle.
So Jessica Fern talks about itin Polysecure.
You can rebuild your attachmentstyle into a safe and secure one
when you're an adult and you cando that within yourself and you
can do that with others.
So our individualistic cultureis like, well, if you're
(18:00):
jealous, that's your problem.
If you need to regulate, that'syour thing.
No, in Polyamory, it's tribal.
It's team, like kinship.
How do we Use our power for loveand intimacy for the good.
Like, how do we connect andwatch each other?
You see your partners likedevastating.
You're like, well, I'll be backin the morning.
No, that was
Casey (18:15):
fun.
I'll see you.
It sucks.
You feel that way.
See you later.
FOX (18:18):
Yeah.
And it's hard because you haveto consider your metamors too.
Like if you're going too fastand then it's like, okay, well,
I'm going to slow down.
Well now your metamors might gethurt by that.
So it's like a really delicatebalance of trying to love
everyone.
And I've been starting torealize part of polyamory is
that we also are our own lover.
We have to love ourselves.
We are one of the people we arein relationship with.
(18:40):
So how are we going to, yeah,what were you going to say,
Casey?
I was going
Casey (18:42):
to say it's the RuPaul.
You don't love yourself.
How the hell are you going tolove anybody else?
FOX (18:47):
Okay, RuPaul.
Casey (18:50):
Yes.
Care is a huge fan of RuPaul'sdrag race and I get to sit in
and I'll watch some of theseepisodes.
It's like one of my favoriteparts of the show.
FOX (18:59):
I need to watch that show.
Cause everyone says how fuckingamazing it is.
I want to watch it.
Kari (19:04):
Even our 10 year old walks around and it was like, well, if
you don't love yourself, how theheck you going to love anybody
else?
I'm like, she gets it.
She told me she gets it
FOX (19:11):
and she'll be empowered.
I love that.
Casey (19:14):
So I have to take a quick pause because we know That
there's a lot of people thatlisten that not are not
necessarily in the know withterms whenever it comes to
polyamory.
So do us a favor and define ametamors for us really quickly.
FOX (19:25):
Yeah, your metamors are your lover's lover.
So if I'm Casey, you are datingsomeone and Carrie is not dating
that person, then that isCarrie's metamor.
Yes.
Your lover's lover.
You're not necessarily intimateor sexual with them.
And sometimes people don't liketheir metamors and sometimes.
Um, they do, but if you becomeintimate or sexual with them,
(19:46):
well now they are your lover.
They are also your lover.
Casey (19:49):
That's where we get into all those terms like kitchen
table polyamory.
Yeah.
Parallel polyamory.
FOX (19:54):
Well, and you know, I just learned parent parallel
polyamory too.
That's where it's kind ofseparate.
You're not really bringingeverybody together to meet
Casey.
Casey.
Sorry.
I went like this.
Casey, Terry.
I love that.
Okay.
Sorry.
See how distracted I got.
Yeah.
I forget what I was sayingagain.
It's
Casey (20:12):
that parallel polyamory, right?
Where it would be like, Carriehas a partner, but I don't
interact or know them at all.
Carrie doesn't know them, meetthem.
And it's just, there's anotherrelationship going on.
They have nothing to do with it.
Yeah.
It's something like kitchentable polyamory where, uh, Maybe
everyone sits down.
We're not necessarily allinvolved with each other, but
it'd be like if Carrie was in arelationship and we all sat like
(20:34):
we're all, we all hang outtogether, we're all friends,
just Carrie has her relationshipwith that person.
Also a relationship with mewhile I have a relationship with
somebody else.
And we're all just friends andtogether.
FOX (20:45):
I know.
Doesn't that sound amazing?
Casey (20:47):
A big polycule or some sort.
Yes.
FOX (20:49):
Oh my gosh.
Y'all seen, um, I don't know ifwe talked about in episode one,
did y'all see how to build a sexroom?
Casey (20:55):
Yes.
We mentioned the show in episodeone, but I don't think we dove
into, yeah, we didn't reallydive into the polycule where
they built the whole room.
FOX (21:07):
I want like a separate room that's just for sex or maybe my
bedroom should be my sex room.
But I think a lot of people aregetting into rope play and like
the vanilla people are like, andI don't use vanilla as
derogatory, but just like if youhaven't been kinky, they're
starting to embrace all theseways because of that Netflix
show.
So I love that show.
No, we
Casey (21:25):
love anything that helps like.
Pull back the curtain on kink,uh, on polyamory on all of
these, like out of the box,relational norms.
We are so in for it because allit does is open us up to be able
to talk to more people, helpmore people and just create like
a better social circle,especially whenever people are
coming in and being like, I knownothing about this.
(21:47):
Like, what can y'all tell me?
Oh my God, you know what a goodbook
FOX (21:50):
is too?
There's the best book.
It's by Kate Sloan and it'scalled 101 Kinky Things Even You
Can Do.
And it is like 101, like basics.
It's so awesome.
I, every more like everySaturday, me and my lover, we
read one during breakfast.
We're like, Ooh, gagging.
Oh my God.
Ass worship, like things I'venever even heard of.
(22:11):
And I was like, okay, bookmarkthis.
I want to try this.
This sounds too intense, but
Kari (22:16):
yeah.
Well, because I think thatpeople should just assume that
they know what their kink is.
And that's not accurate.
You have, you know, you're goingto be into, and so to have
something like that does allowyou to pull it up and be like,
Oh, okay.
Like butt plugs.
Got it.
You know what I mean?
Like, I just, I love that thereis a book that does that because
I think that people are expectedto know, but you don't know what
(22:39):
you don't know.
Like, you don't know what youdon't know.
Yes.
Casey (22:42):
This is where it's important to have a yes, no,
maybe list, like and we utilizethat in our relationship.
And then we've also created oneof our own that we, uh, that we
offer to people where they canlook at it.
And it's just a list of allthese different things and
allows them to decide ifthey're, you know, into it, if
it's like a maybe, or if it'slike, And then it's also, I
(23:04):
mean, it's the one that wecreated is fairly complex.
We were very excited about it.
Yeah.
There's a lot.
FOX (23:09):
Can you email me this list?
Casey (23:12):
I will share it with you.
Will you share
FOX (23:15):
it with me?
Cause I want to see it.
Okay.
I love that.
I
Casey (23:20):
said along with an NDA.
FOX (23:24):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
No, I'm not going to share.
I'm going to keep it reallyprivate, but I would love to see
it.
Casey (23:28):
I trust you.
Yes.
We had a fun time coming up withit.
And it's helped a lot of peoplerealize like what they want to
do, how if they want to seesomething or if they would like
to give something in terms ofall of this.
And it's fairly extensive.
And so, I mean, we were happywith it, but that's, it's such a
cool thing to be able to likeyou, what you were saying is
that you don't, you're not goingto go into kink and just all of
(23:50):
a sudden know what you're intoand know what you're not into.
It takes, just like
FOX (23:54):
polyamory.
You can talk about it and it'sso exciting because you're like,
Oh my gosh, I'm, you know, Ithink we hold back the part of
us that is attracted to otherpeople or feeling flirty or
crushing, like on our husband'sfriend or our partner's friend
or whatever.
But once you're polyamorous,you're like waking up to the
real signals you had that you'relike, Your attraction is still
there.
(24:15):
So it's really exciting.
It's exciting to open up, butthen it's also can be
devastating once you're like,now I'm jealous seeing my lover
fall in love with someone elseor flirt with someone else or be
desired.
And, you know, I love, I've beenreally thinking a lot about how.
Say we're with an alreadyestablished partner.
The day to day domestic stuffthat's like habitual and kind of
(24:36):
boring and mundane.
We don't do that with our newlovers.
So that's what polyamory keepsus like on our toes because all
of a sudden we see our metamorscompletely desiring and treating
our lover differently and we'vebeen doing all the domestic
shit.
But that also leaves a windowfor relationship neglect.
Well, how have I been showing upfor my lover?
Like, have I been doing thesethings?
(24:56):
Of course you're jealous if yourpartner's doing NRE with someone
and you've been like washingclothes at home.
Yeah.
Well, there's all these thingsto consider and you kind of have
to like, okay, I have to give tomyself, my metamorph, my lover.
It's a lot.
Like we only have so muchcapacity for time, but our
capacity to love is infinite,but not our time.
Casey (25:14):
Which I mean, that is that on a t
Kari (25:16):
shirt.
Casey (25:16):
Yeah.
Yes,
Kari (25:19):
that's not our time.
It's a super interesting
Casey (25:21):
point because people are like, you know, how can you go
in and love all these people andall that?
And we're like, well, it's notabout the capacity to love
because that capacity to love islike you say, it's infinite.
FOX (25:30):
Infinite.
Casey (25:31):
It's time management.
Yeah.
FOX (25:33):
We're human.
The concept of time feels reallyfucking real to me.
'cause I also gotta sleep.
I like to go night at like 8:00PM so I can't be out dating.
Casey (25:41):
Exactly.
And that's, it's such a greatthing because it allows also for
the monogamous people thatlisten to the show to take a
closer look at theirrelationship, because from the
time of your first year of yourrelationship begins, you decide
to be monogamous.
We have the, so many of theselike inborn rules that you're
supposed to follow.
That's like, Don't ever look atanother person and don't feel
(26:02):
feelings for anybody else.
Don't have attraction toanything else.
And that goes against our veryDNA.
FOX (26:07):
Yeah.
Casey (26:08):
And it's much more productive, we've found,
Kari (26:11):
whenever
Casey (26:12):
we actually discuss that stuff.
Kari (26:13):
Well, I also think that whenever I, like, came out, that
allowed me to not feel guilt.
For looking at people anddistracted.
FOX (26:22):
I love that.
Oh, it released you.
Yeah,
Kari (26:25):
it did.
And because, I mean, and even, Imean, now I do feel like we're
past that, but before we gotinto this concept that we really
played with and like.
Indulged in.
I always had guilt prior to.
And so that kind of opened thatveil for me personally, to feel
like I'm not wrong for beingattracted to other people.
(26:48):
I'm not wrong for havingfeelings for other people.
I'm allowed to do that.
And That was super helpful forme because I hold on to a lot of
shame my entire life onto thatshame, thinking that I was wrong
for being attracted to otherpeople.
And yeah, that was probably mybiggest thing that helped me the
most.
(27:08):
And so if you're listening tothis and you're just getting
started or you're thinking aboutgetting started, let this be
something for you.
Open up that veil.
Don't have that guilt.
Like, like you were saying, likewe have this predetermined
notion on what, And who we'resupposed to be.
And I feel like a lot of us areready to just fucking break that
mold.
Fuck that break over it.
(27:29):
We're done.
And that's another part of whywe're wanting to talk to you.
We're trying to normalize thatyou're allowed to feel the way
you feel without that shame,that you're not wrong, that
you're not broken.
You're fucking you and you lookfucking awesome.
Oh my God.
FOX (27:46):
It's like the patriarchy and heterosexuality and
monogamy, those are, that is oneexperience.
Humans are expansive andinfinite.
We cannot be rigid withourselves.
And it's beautiful to experimentand try.
And I'm so sorry that you feltthat guilt and shame.
And I think a lot of us feelthat, like, even in the BIPOC
community of like, Well, this iswho I am.
(28:06):
Why am I being like oppressed inthis way?
Or I'm queer.
Why are you oppressing me?
Well, that's just one paradigmthat people are trying to
oppress us with.
No, thank you.
I am beautiful.
I am good.
I'm attracted to other peoplebecause I have like a rotten
energy.
I have a sexual self.
It didn't die because I gotmarried or because I'm in a
(28:27):
relationship.
But another thing I want to talkto, uh, today, and I don't think
we mentioned it in the first oneis that like polyamory isn't for
everybody and it isn't for everyrelationship and it isn't for
every moment in your life.
It's okay not to be polyamorous.
Um, I think the more mainstreamit becomes, people might feel a
little pressure like, oh, it'sthe thing to do, which is kind
(28:47):
of cute.
I love that.
But I don't want people feelingpressure, but yeah, you're
right.
There are other options.
But your relationship has tokind of be in a good place to
open up.
Like it's going to exasperateshit if it's already bad.
And I don't think I mentionedthat in the first episode, so I
wanted to make sure.
Casey (29:02):
That's something that we'd love to talk about.
And that's something we dideither.
And I love that you bring it upnow because we do want people to
understand that whenever wediscussing, whenever we are
discussing polyamory, we're notsaying that it's not okay to be
monogamous.
We're not saying that you shouldfeel any sort of way about your
chosen relationship style.
Your chosen relationship styleis what's right for you.
FOX (29:23):
Yeah.
It's one that feels good, safeand secure.
That's what you should feel inany relationship.
Kari (29:28):
Even right now, we talked about it a minute ago.
Time.
We are not open right nowbecause we don't have the time.
It's not because we don't wantto.
And it's no other reason than wehave a lot personal stuff going
on.
And then we respect each otherand I'll be like, Hey, I
personally don't want to be openright now.
There's a lot going on and Iwant us to really focus on us.
(29:49):
And then we're going to openthat back up.
It doesn't have to be thisperfect timeline either.
It's just whenever you can fitit into your life.
And, but we're so ready toexplore when things settle down,
we can just allow life just tosettle a bit.
And that's another part of it.
(30:09):
Because like you said, Casey,we're not shaming at all, not at
all part of your life or neverin your life.
But again, this episode is tohelp you understand if it is for
you.
FOX (30:22):
Yeah, and let me ask you to a personal question if you want
to answer as it's being recordedand it's gonna be on the
internet.
I'll answer it first.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Consent.
Hell yes to consent.
When you do start dating, if itfeels like you're polysaturated,
like, okay, we have too manylovers or there's too much going
on, we need to slow down.
How do y'all manage that if youalready have a metamorphosis or
(30:43):
another lover and there'sfeelings involved?
How do you distance yourself?
Do you break up?
Like, do you let it phase outnaturally?
Like what happens?
Kari (30:52):
So we have always had conversations.
It's always been, but there.
Anyone that we've dated in thepast, they've been fairly
integrated into our family.
Like they come over, we all likecook together.
They like, I don't say they helpout, but like, they're part of
the tribe.
And so,
Casey (31:12):
yeah, we've never experienced like that parallel
polyamory of she has arelationship and it's mixed in
some, on some level, but it's
Kari (31:19):
always been led with always with the conversation.
And most times it's ended in usstill hanging out, us still
being friends, just knowing thatwe need to focus on us, but we
also preface it beforehand.
And we've told them there maycome a time.
That we personally need to pullback.
I don't know that we've ever hadsuch a strong connection yet,
(31:42):
but I also feel like we've beenvery clear and community has
been very
FOX (31:46):
strong.
That's transparentcommunication.
They have the power to say, Oh,well I might get too involved.
So I'm not going to be, I don'twant to be in a hierarchical
situation.
I love that.
That's so awesome.
Casey (31:58):
That's one of the big things that we have.
We know there's a lot of peopleout there that, uh, look down on
any form of hierarchical.
Polyamory.
It's unethical.
It's not okay.
Our personal view on it.
Is that right?
FOX (32:10):
Sorry.
I rolled my eyes.
I'm sorry.
I'll verbalize what I meant in amoment.
Casey (32:17):
Well, the way that we see it is as long as there's clear
and open community, let's justsay, and listen we do come from
a 15 year relationship and weare considering ourselves as the
anchor of all of this.
So we've made the question.
to come out.
If you're okay with that, we'llwant to pursue this.
Kari (32:35):
You
Casey (32:35):
can have that conversation.
And they've
Kari (32:37):
never not wanted to pursue it.
Because we've been very clear.
FOX (32:42):
I love, I mean, that's beautiful.
That's love.
People are going to ebb and flowout of diets to triads to quads.
Don't, we can't shape, we can'tmarginalize an already
marginalized population.
Why are we making rules on howto love?
How is it unethical to have ananchor partner?
I mean, that just happensnaturally.
Sometimes if you have a childwith someone, you're sharing
more time investment anddomestic responsibilities, and I
(33:05):
absolutely, this hierarchicalthing, it's unethical.
It's unethical.
It, how it can't, it'simpossibly unethical if you are
giving people empowertransparency communication
because they can say, you knowwhat, that works perfect for me.
I want to be in a hierarchicalsituation where I'm secondary
because I don't want to give youall my energy either.
So this is great.
Or you know what?
No, thank you.
(33:26):
Because eventually I might wantto live with y'all.
Casey (33:28):
And I don't know, so you know what, and we've had a
relationship before wheresomebody came to us and said,
Hey, at this point, I now wantto go and look for a more
serious relationship.
So we're going to end thingshere.
Or go back to being friends.
We all hang out and I'm going togo look for my, a primary
partner for myself.
Kari (33:47):
Yeah.
And then we're all friends andwe all hung out and it was fine.
FOX (33:53):
Like shine the light on that carry.
I love that because.
That is so polyamorous to belike, we didn't just break up,
we just ended maybe the sexualcomponent of the relationship,
but we were still intimate andconnected and kind and had a
friendship.
That's polyamory.
You don't have to break up.
You can do other things thatmake sense.
Okay, go ahead.
Kari (34:12):
No, I mean, honestly that's exactly what happened.
That's perfect.
And then you're right.
Like it doesn't have, and thatis such a monogamy mindset too.
As we break up, we're nevertalking again.
You are dead to me.
Yes.
It's not really like that in thequeer community.
We're all still friends.
Casey (34:28):
Okay.
So well, that's the point that Iwas about to come up and be
like, I don't know if this isgoing to like coming from me as
like a, It's just hetero malesound ignorant, but I feel like
looking at that where theability to flow in and out of
relationships that have sexual,uh, tendencies that remove from
that, that remain friends andall that.
I feel like that's like a cornercornerstone of the queer
(34:50):
community.
And I have such like respect forthe queer community because I've
watched so many of my friends belike, well, we're dating and now
we're not dating and we're stillhanging out all the time.
And I'm dating this person.
It just flows.
FOX (35:02):
There's fluid, fluidity.
Casey (35:05):
And I'm like, you don't see this.
No.
You have so many toxic peopleonline that it's like, it's
impossible for, you know, malesand females to be friends and
it's impossible to do this.
And I'm sitting there doing itall the fucking time.
And they say, okay,
FOX (35:24):
The amazing thing about not being heterosexual is there's no
longer a script.
And when there is no script,there is this expansive
potential of rewriting a scriptbased on your values and
beliefs.
That's what I love about likepolyamory and queer communities
and even kink.
It's like, let's write this in away that works for everybody.
What do you love?
What turns you on?
(35:45):
We don't have to do it likeeverybody else.
And I think that like fills usup with love because all of a
sudden there's no rules.
We get to make them.
And as long as there'scompassion, consent,
transparency, respect, andattunement, we're watching out
for each other, we're good togo.
There's no wrong way to loveunless you're hurting someone.
That's not love.
Kari (36:03):
Yeah, that's not love.
Casey (36:04):
Exactly.
FOX (36:06):
And that's a wrap.
God, hard people.
Yeah, it's so hard.
It's just, it's a new way.
And you know what?
It is unsettling and scary towrite a script.
Like, like me as a femme, I'mlike, Oh my God, how am I going
to date a femme?
There's no script.
I'm so scared.
Like all my cute, romanticthings I do with the boys, like
people who identify as boys, ifI do that to like someone's fam,
who's fam, they're going to knowall my tricks.
(36:26):
I'm like, I need a fuckingscript.
I don't know how to do this, butit's also exciting.
Cause I get to, um, really likelook into myself and be aware of
what's feeling good.
And I don't know, I kind of likebeing scared.
It's, it makes me feel alive.
Like I get to figure this out onmy own terms.
Casey (36:42):
Absolutely cut.
FOX (36:44):
I'm reading Girl Sex one on 1 0 1 right now.
Yeah.
Which is about like how to belike obviously with Vulvas and
how to be, and I'm just like, ohmy God, I can't believe I have a
vulva and I don't know thesethings.
Like no one taught me.
Right.
But wait, Casey, what?
You were just laughing a momentago.
What were you laughing at?
'cause I wanna know,
Casey (37:02):
take me back to what we were saying was because I, my
brain went Me too and then wejust moved on.
So back, I think we something.
FOX (37:10):
Oh, no script.
Not having a script makes you itliberates you.
You can
Casey (37:15):
You caught me, huh?
FOX (37:17):
Yeah, I caught you, bitch! Sorry, you're not a bitch.
I mean,
Casey (37:21):
no, you're not.
You're a bitch in a good
FOX (37:22):
way.
You're
Casey (37:23):
a bitch.
You're fine.
You're completely okay.
No, you had said that you weretalking about, uh, um, Being a
femme.
Oh yeah.
And then flirting or becomingmore sexualized with another fem
and how do you handle that andall that.
And I immediately in my head,thought about Carrie be because
Carrie is switches between, youswitch between fem and mask.
(37:44):
Oh yeah.
And I've seen Carrie and I'veseen Carrie go, like, for
somebody that's more femme andthen watch her become more
masked in that moment, and thenwatch her flirt.
That's somebody, and then gowith somebody that's more
masked.
And then watch it become likevastly feminine.
So I'm on the outside endwatching that and it just
triggered some memories of minethat I'm like, Oh my God.
Kari (38:04):
It's because I adapted the situation.
If you need me to take control,I'm gonna do it really fast.
But if you take control, I'mgonna let you.
FOX (38:12):
Oh, yeah, that is so erotic to me that you are so expansive
and you can just flow in andout.
And I love both.
I mean, wow.
That's how I want to live mylife.
When I die, I want to haveexperienced as many edges and
parts of my heart and soul aspossible, as parts of my erotic
and sexual self.
(38:32):
Like, I want to have bumped upagainst the end of myself in
this lifetime.
There you go.
Kari (38:40):
It's really funny though, because when Casey was smirking,
I was having the thought in myhead of, I was like, Oh, you
just dominate him.
That's easy.
I know.
That's so hot.
Literally smirking while I hadthat.
I know.
I saw
FOX (38:53):
the whole fucking thing unfold right before my eyes.
I'm really into being dom.
Like I didn't know I would likethat, but there is something
it's that taboo nature.
It's that power dynamic.
And yeah, I want consent first.
Like don't just fucking dom mewhen I'm in the kitchen.
Like, You, I, like, I need alittle bit of, like,
forewarning, um, and consent andtalk about it, but yes,
sexually, I'm, like, dom me, andI don't want to tell you how to
(39:16):
dom me, I want you to know howto dom me, because I can't dom
me.
Because you're a
Kari (39:18):
brat.
FOX (39:19):
Huh?
Kari (39:20):
Because you're a brat.
FOX (39:21):
Oh.
You think so?
Yes, I think there's a load of.
Wait, can we define brat?
What is, what do you mean?
Because I'm like, wait, am I a
Kari (39:30):
brat?
Because for me, you want to bedominated, but you don't want to
tell them how to, that's a brat.
Casey (39:35):
That's.
Because I think there's
Kari (39:37):
like a definition of Brad.
There's like a specific That'snot a
Casey (39:40):
definition.
That's a characteristic.
Fine, but I'll go
Kari (39:43):
with that.
I'll easily go with that.
But
Casey (39:45):
that person wants to push back.
Kari (39:47):
Yeah.
It's a pushback.
The
Casey (39:48):
brat is the person that wants to like push back.
If somebody is trying to like bemore dominant, tell them what to
do.
And they're going to turn backaround and push back and give
them the challenge and give themthe resistance.
FOX (39:57):
So it's not truly being done then.
Casey (40:00):
So it can be, but it's that power of the sub to be
like, I'm going to allow thisdomination to occur, which you'd
be submissive to a person thatyou choose to be submissive to
being submissive.
But there's all those differenttypes.
It can be one of those that it'slike is dumb sub where they're
(40:21):
like very So very submissivewhere it's like, whatever you
say to do, I'm going to do it.
And then also that buddy stuffthat is like, you're going to
tell me what to do.
And I'm going to turn around andI'm going to tell you, no,
respond to that with like, okay,well now we're going to go and
you're going to get punished.
It's
Kari (40:39):
really what we want in the first place.
Casey (40:41):
See, yes, we're going to go up there and we're going to
do some impact play and you'regoing to be like, Oh no,
FOX (40:48):
I'm totally learning something about myself today.
Thank you so much for teachingme.
You know what?
I am a brat.
And my partner told me thatlike, if I go on a date, like,
When I do go on a date, and if Icome home, I'm like, Okay, well,
I like, kissed a femme today,cause that's like, that's where
I'm resonating right now, iswith femmes.
If I come home and I kissed afemme, then I'm gonna get a
penance.
And I was like, wait, I'm gonnaget punished?
(41:08):
I was like, well, can I justhave the punishment now?
He's like, no, bitch! You haveSo that's really fun.
I love how we're, we keep going,hitting up against kink today,
even though we're supposed to
Kari (41:21):
have you on again, but just about kink.
FOX (41:24):
Well, I need to finish my Kate Sloan book and then I'll
come back and we'll talk aboutkink.
Cause I want to learn everythingI can.
And I want to go to some playparties, you know, even if I'm a
voyeur, a consensual voyeur, Iwant to like see what's up in
these kink communities, havesome fun.
Casey (41:39):
Go hit up your local dungeon is a really good way to
do that and find one in yourarea.
Go to a dungeon night wherethere may be focusing on impact
play or Shabari or they'refocusing on a lot of them
through they'll host events on aweekly basis where it's, there's
a certain focus and you show up.
You don't have to participate.
You can be an observer.
And
FOX (41:59):
not all of them are like having actual, like people
having like intercourse orpenetration or close off.
There's all different types ofspeeds and variations.
Nine 10.
We host a really good one in LosAngeles and they have events all
the time.
I've been to one centric becausesometimes BIPOC community.
We want to maybe stay with eachother and feel safe, and that's
(42:20):
just the way, and sometimes wedon't, that's up to us.
But um, Squeeze LA and 910 WeHogot together at one point and
did something, and it was sosexy.
And it was like red lights, andlike there was a spanking area,
and like there was a striptease, it was so beautiful.
But I do want to go to somethingsoon.
Plora also has a bunch ofevents.
Okay.
(42:41):
I don't know where you are, butyou don't have to tell me.
I'm like,
Casey (42:43):
Oh, we're in Fort Worth, Texas.
If
FOX (42:46):
you come to LA, can we meet?
Casey (42:48):
100%.
FOX (42:49):
Okay.
Casey (42:50):
That would be fun.
Can we be friends?
Oh, yes, of course we can.
We have, I mean, I thought wealready were.
Oh, yeah, that was the answer Iwas
FOX (42:58):
looking for.
Carrie.
I just
Kari (43:00):
called all your personal stuff.
So we're basically our bestfriends now.
FOX (43:04):
Oh my god, you're my best friend.
Casey (43:08):
Okay.
All right.
So, uh, it looks like we havejust a little bit of time left.
Yeah, I want to cover anotherquestion and I think this one is
super pertinent is this is so wewant to talk about how to handle
whenever your partner startsmoving faster than you do and
the dating communities ofpolyamory.
So for an example, say that meand Carrie were open and all of
(43:30):
a sudden she's got like datesjust coming down the pipe.
She's literally like, Oh, I'mgoing on one on Tuesday and then
on Thursday I have Saturday.
And then I might sit back and belike, I'm still looking or I
only have this one person I'm ina relationship with right now is
how do you handle those likedifferent drives of wanting to
be in various relationshiptypes?
FOX (43:52):
Do you mean like when someone's going faster than
you're comfortable with?
Or do you mean, what do I dowhen my partner's dating and I'm
not dating and I wish I was?
Casey (44:00):
Um, I'd love to cover both of those.
FOX (44:04):
Just kidding.
Okay.
I don't know why I did that.
Um, okay, so we'll do the firstone.
If your partner's dating fasterthan you, and it's
uncomfortable, I think we needto sit down and ask each other,
why are we doing this together?
Cause we're not single.
Single means I can do whatever Iwant, whenever I want, with
whoever I want.
Poly, doing polyamory we're ateam, we're doing it together.
(44:26):
We're attuning to each other.
We're seeing if each other isactivated.
So if one person is movingfaster, I know it can be
frustrating to slow down, but ifyou are going at such a fast
rate that it's harming yourpartner, even though you don't
mean to, it's not going to besustainable.
Everyone in polyamory has tobenefit.
Otherwise they're not going towant to do it.
Some monog, more monogamousleaning people or people who
(44:47):
want to move slow.
They're saying, well, my goal inpolyamory is just to make my
partner happy.
That's why I'm doing it.
That's not a strong enough goal.
You need a reason for yourself.
Why does it bring you joy?
Why does it benefit you?
Why does it benefit yourrelationship?
So if you're going too fast,someone's going too fast, you're
going to end up maybefrustrated, really sad, kind of
traumatized and you're not goingto want to do it.
(45:09):
So, you know, in polyamory it'slike, Hey, we could not be
together and I could just gofuck and love whoever I want.
Or if we're going to do ittogether, why is it special
between us?
Why are we doing it together?
Casey (45:20):
So I'd love to bring it back around to like, what does
it benefit us versus you're notjust going off and living a
single life.
That's the
FOX (45:29):
urgency.
Like, let's look at why you'reurgent.
Sometimes people have feltcontrolled or stifled in their
earlier life.
So once they have the free passto be liberated, they just they
go.
It's like their nervous system'slike, go.
Or if maybe developmentally at acertain age, maybe you didn't
get to experience being queer orknowing your authentic self or
being polyamorous.
(45:49):
So now once you have the label,you're like, I have to go do it
now.
So looking at what is that senseof urgency about and how are you
impacting others?
And if you are going to slowdown it, but you're frustrated.
What other channels can you useto kind of download that love
and that fuel for life and thatpassion?
Like, what other ways can youmeet your needs while you're
(46:10):
going slow until your partnercatches up?
Because we want polyamory to besustainable.
Otherwise, we're just gonna giveup.
It's gonna suck.
Casey (46:17):
Yeah.
And if you, like you said, ifyou just kind of shoot out the
gate and go for it through allthis stuff with that sense of
urgency, it's not sustainable.
FOX (46:23):
Yeah.
But I get that it's frustratingfor the faster person.
I understand that, but you know,we don't get everything.
Well, Hey, this, the person whowanting to go slower, they're
uncomfortable too.
Casey (46:32):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
That was going to be a curiositycause I know that you can have
people that open up into thisand you might have a partner
that's out there to seek a deep,deeper connection in a
relationship.
And another partner that's like,well, I'm here for the hookup
culture.
Yeah.
So like trying to reconcilethose different, Viewpoints, it
can be a very difficult thing todo.
(46:53):
Yeah, I
FOX (46:53):
think defining, when you start, before you start
polyamory, or at least onceyou've started and it's already
like full force ahead, what isdating?
Because for some people it'sjust fucking, for some people
it's just play parties, for somepeople it's just dating.
Platonic romantic relationships.
For some people it's like, Oh,I'll be home tomorrow.
That's a dating.
And you're like, what?
I just met you.
We're going to go and have padThai.
(47:14):
And now you're coming home inthe morning.
So define what dating is.
And I think we should startchecking in with our lovers
before polyamory begins of whathave been your dating
experiences?
Have you been traumatized orhurt in the past?
What was your relationship likewith your parents?
Like kind of being a little bitof a therapist and
investigating, because that'sgoing to say a lot about their
dating style.
(47:35):
Yeah.
Yeah, and what's going to workfor them and then negotiate and,
you know, just be reallyspecific about what we're doing
and, you know, write down yourrelationship agreements and
they're going to evolve as youget safe, more safe and secure.
That's the amazing thing.
As you get comfortable with eachother, I think your dating
styles could probably align, butyou know, if you're
uncomfortable with yourpartner's dating style, you're
going to want to talk about it.
Casey (47:54):
Yeah, those that dating style stuff is one thing that we
like to talk to people aboutwhatever they're going through
their regular, their, you know,monogamous relationship as we
try, we tell as many people aswe can, is to figure out as much
about yourself as possible, asmuch about your partner as
possible, not only just inexperiences, but what are your
separate, what are yourattachment styles?
(48:14):
What are you, if you could, themore you can really.
Becoming attuned to yourself andwith your partner, the more
chances of success you have andthe less chance you have about
like really creating some damagethat might be irreparable to
your relationship.
FOX (48:29):
Word.
Yes.
We don't think about that causewe're just so excited, but yeah,
it would be wonderful to createa little safety vessel for you
and your partner.
to kind of reconnect polyamorycheck ins once a week.
What's going well?
What isn't?
Are you getting your needs met?
Is anything harming you?
Are you saying yes when youmeet, when you mean to say no?
Do you feel pressured inanything?
Are we going too fast?
Are we going too slow?
Kari (48:51):
I like that.
I
FOX (48:52):
hope everyone was writing those down that quickly.
Write that shit down.
Write it down.
Use it.
I'm like doming the audience.
I'm so sorry.
I didn't even ask.
No, I'm just kidding.
So much compassion.
We are just human.
We are just Trying to be excitedand love.
I totally understand.
Yes.
Casey (49:12):
Fox.
You're amazing.
FOX (49:14):
You're amazing.
Casey (49:17):
I mean, like you're going like, we're already running out
of time.
I'm going, damn it.
I
FOX (49:21):
know I, we have such chemistry.
I was telling my lover, I reallylove these two.
Like are doing a podcast withthem.
There's just all this frenetic.
It beautiful chemistry andenergy and I wanna say thank
you.
Thank you for having me on yourshow.
Of course.
Well, we're happy to have you.
Well, I'm being
Kari (49:36):
very serious about having you back on.
Like, I agree.
There's a such a good flow.
We're gonna
Casey (49:40):
fly it to LA and we're gonna find a podcast.
You, we a live episode.
And we're gonna do, we're rentit out day.
Y'all gonna a live one?
No, we're gonna, oh my God.
I'm
FOX (49:48):
be sitting between you two like this.
We're not even, we're gonna beso distracted.
We're not gonna do it.
And you know what?
Yes.
Like, let's.
Like one day we'll meet inperson, but we're gonna do more
podcasts.
I'm writing a book.
Yep.
Yes.
That's a process.
But, and then, um, people canfind me at the polyamory
therapist everywhere.
I have a website and on thesocial medias.
But yeah, I wanna reconnect withyou two.
(50:10):
So this won't be the last thingwe do at all.
No,
Kari (50:12):
no.
FOX (50:12):
We have, we're in a relationship.
This is a type of polyamorypodcast.
Sorry that was a bad joke.
I told you I'm not good atJokes.
Casey (50:19):
Podcast Ann Marie.
Got it.
All right.
Well, for another episode ofcome with Casey, we are your
host.
Kari (50:27):
I'm Carrie Sanders.
I'm Dr.
Casey
Casey (50:29):
Sanders.
Kari (50:30):
I'm Fox Arrows.
Casey (50:31):
And there's Fox Arrows.
Thanks again, Fox.
And we'll see you next time.
FOX (50:37):
I'll miss you.
Bye.
Bye.
welcome back to come with Casey.
(00:02):
As always, we are your hosts.
I'm Dr.
Casey Sanders.
Back for part two of polyamorywith the Fox Eros Fox, how you
doing?
FOX (00:12):
Hi.
I don't know why I wanted to sayhi like that.
Hi everyone.
Casey (00:19):
I know.
I almost feel like we, if youhaven't listened to part one, we
highly encourage you to go back.
We had some great conversationabout opening up relationships
and about the pitfalls that comewith it.
Why to do it?
Why not to do it?
It was a whole damnconversation.
Kari (00:32):
Well, and that's really what brought us to wanting to
have a part two.
Cause there's no way that we cantalk about everything that we
want to talk about in oneepisode.
So thank you so much for comingback.
Um, and we have even morequestions and more to dive into
for today.
First of all, how are you doingtoday?
FOX (00:49):
I'm good.
It's my pleasure to be here.
I love you too.
And look at, I'm wearing this inhonor of, aren't you doing like
rope, our Shabari classes?
Like what classes are you doing?
I love
Kari (00:58):
you
FOX (00:58):
so
Kari (00:58):
much.
He was like, should we talkabout the class?
I'm like, we're not promotingour class on our call.
And I'm not even promoting it.
I'm just saying,
FOX (01:07):
yeah, I'm okay.
So for those of you that can'tsee, I'm wearing a pink bow
around my neck, like I'm alittle gift.
And it kind of reminds me oflike something a little kinky,
So it's super cute.
So I was like, Oh, this is anhonor of them.
So yeah, tell me, I wanted yourclasses very sexy.
Casey (01:23):
Yes.
So we are the Shabari class thatwe're hosting and we want to
emphasize this.
It is an introductory class.
So I've myself, I've been, uh,I've been a rigger for the last,
what, year and a half.
And, but my extensive knowledgeof anatomy and physiology put
together with that has allowedus to create a class
specifically for couples
FOX (01:43):
so they can
Casey (01:44):
learn how to do some sexy bedroom ties, make it a little
bit more erotic, and get a goodintroduction to do it in a safe
and sexy way.
FOX (01:51):
And what about threples and quads?
Can they come too?
Casey (01:55):
Yes, they can actually show our, whenever we, what we
do have it let down.
Our, we do have tickets put downfor couples and then we have
extra tickets.
So individuals can come, uh, andthey can either, you know,
Kari (02:07):
Cause that allowing where you get like two tickets or you
can get one ticket.
So there is three or there isfour.
You just end up buying the twotickets together.
And then we're going to gothrough and talk a lot about
like prior consent.
Um, and then if people arecomfortable with maybe going
outside their little group, um,it's something that we're all
going to discuss beforehand.
(02:27):
Um, so it's not only going to bea shibari class, but it's going
to be like a proper etiquetteclass and not doing anything
kinky.
Because a lot of these peopleare coming in, maybe not
experiencing any level of kink.
So yeah, a big portion early on,like he was saying is going to
be obviously the anatomy of thebody, where to tie, where not to
tie and then how to askpermission to tie.
(02:48):
And honestly, it's been greatfor me because he's been tying
me up the last few nights.
Practice all the different timesin the class.
I'm like, Hey, babe, don't youneed to practice?
Oh,
FOX (03:02):
you can practice on me.
And I
Kari (03:06):
love
FOX (03:07):
the consent piece because people who aren't in the kink
community, like consent isreally heavy in the kink
community, more so in the nonkink community.
Like it, you need to have a hellyes on consent.
things and we need safetysignals and if I want to stop or
take it slow, I need aftercare.
Those things are so importantwith pink.
And um, I'm just really excited.
(03:27):
Yeah.
The photos are really beautifuland sexy.
Casey (03:31):
We've been getting more inquiries from like local models
and from photographers who arelike, Hey, would you like to
work with us?
So it's really opened up thiswhole door.
for us to be able to be like,cool, we now have this extensive
way to interact further with thecommunity in a way that allows
us to build a social circle andhave a lot of fun through the
art of shabari.
FOX (03:49):
And I don't think that people, and this, the reason
we're talking about kink isbecause it's intersects with
polyamory, like kink, queer, allof these things that are
beautiful, magical combination.
So this absolutely has to dowith polyamory folks.
We might get into some kinks andkinks not only sex.
It's like a psychologicalthrill.
It's like emotional.
It's a way to connect But um,yeah, I wanted to say a few
(04:13):
things I first want to honor theland that I'm on of the Chumash
and Gabrielino Tongva firstpeoples I always like to honor
that and yes, my name is FoxEros.
I'm also polyamory therapist andYeah, if you didn't hear, um,
episode one, please! It's sogood! But if you're a rebel and
you want to listen to this onefirst and then that one, I think
(04:33):
we should define polyamoryagain.
And then I also wanted to sharesome of my identities.
I'm pansexual, queer, I'm superfucking panromantic, and then
I'm BIPOC, black girl magic,multi ethnic, And I'm sure I
could come up with more labels,but I'll stop there.
And then let's define polyamoryjust in case people are okay.
(04:55):
So polyamory, it fits under theethical non monogamy umbrella.
It's one type of ethical nonmonogamy and it's the type that
involves emotional connectionand intimacy.
So it's not just sex, likeswinging.
And there has to be a hell yesto wanting to be involved in
this kind of relationship, whichmeans it's not infidelity or
cheating.
Everybody knows everybody wantsit.
Suit, everybody agrees to havingmore than one lover.
Casey (05:17):
I know.
I, well, I already immediatelywanna dive a little bit into
that real quick.
Yeah.
'cause we see a lot of confusionwhenever people think of
polyamory and they think of abunch of people having sex and
they don't realize differencebetween something like swinging,
going out to adult clubs anddoing, getting in more into
hookup culture.
Yeah.
And it being more about thephysicality and the wild
experience.
Versus the polyamory side ofthings where it's like, no, this
(05:40):
is about building a connectionwith somebody possibly falling
in love with another person andgoing through the whole roller
coaster of a relay consensually.
FOX (05:50):
Yes.
Yeah, I love that.
You said it so well.
It's, there's like thistogetherness vibe.
Like think of a tribe.
Think of being on the same team.
Think of attuning to each other.
And you're not single.
Polyamory, you are not singleand just going out around and
doing whatever the fuck youwant.
You are considering your tribeand your lovers and your
metamors.
You don't have to likeeverybody, but you honor and
respect them.
(06:10):
And you can have orgies.
Absolutely.
Sex is fun.
Sex can be part of it if youwant to, but it's not just sex.
There's like emotional aspect.
So yeah, that's the difference.
And I love naming that cause noteverybody knows.
And that's how people sometimesget harmed.
Is there,
Kari (06:24):
I, I know some people in poly that they really focus more
on the relationships and thebonds and intercourse isn't
necessarily a part in it or notan intercourse, but any sexual
acts play a part in it.
So, so sometimes it's not.
Sex at all.
And that's the other beauty ofit is because it can be whatever
consenting adults want it to be.
FOX (06:44):
Yeah.
You get to design your fucking,you get
Kari (06:46):
to decide.
It's great.
Casey (06:48):
Recap part one, recap
FOX (06:51):
part one.
I love your outfit.
It's like a ballerina.
Kari (06:56):
Thank you.
Should I curtsy for you?
FOX (06:59):
Lavender and honey.
It's so pretty.
I love your tattoos.
We're putting our legs up.
If you can't, if you can't see,I just lifted up my
Kari (07:08):
hands with my ballerina outfit.
FOX (07:12):
Casey, you look beautiful too.
Casey (07:13):
Thank you.
Out of the two of us, I'm themuch less complimented one.
So I strongly appreciate, youknow, showing some love there.
FOX (07:23):
My pleasure.
Casey (07:24):
Look it's, I love the fact that you had said that,
cause I want to go back foragain for a second, is that I
think that a lot of people havethis it's a paradigm shift that
they have to go through wheneverthey're looking at polyamory and
then trying to imaginethemselves loving, more than one
person.
And it's the whole thing oflike, it's pushed into your head
of, and this is that wholemonogamy culture of being like,
(07:47):
Hey, you have the one person andthat's the person you're
supposed to feel theunconditional love for.
And then you tell that samegroup of people, well, it's
possible to actually feel thatsame love for more than one
person.
And then just go, what the fuckdoes that even like, you can't
even compromise.
But it's a difficult thing.
It's a grass.
It is.
I mean, you talk about peoplethat from the time that they are
(08:07):
born, they are put into aculture that it's all about
finding the one person, right?
To meet all your
FOX (08:12):
needs.
Casey (08:13):
Yes.
Soulmate that you must have thatone person.
And it's, it even takes a lot ofunlearning for people as they
grow up into adolescence for youto be like, Hey, listen, it's
okay to date somebody and have arelationship with them and
understand that marriage betweenyou two or something longterm.
a possibility or something thatyou should even strive for.
You can do, you can define yourrelationship in any way you
(08:34):
want.
And it's okay to go into arelationship and define your
terms with each other.
They'd be like, we're not tryingto lead towards marriage right
now, or even a monogamousrelationship.
Right now.
Right.
It's something that is sodifficult to like really put
through people.
FOX (08:50):
Yeah, it is because our nervous system is wired for
monogamy.
It's all that we're taught.
It's all that we're modeled.
So it has inherent safety andsecurity.
But when you think aboutmonogamy, it's like, when did
the fuck that start?
Is that like the, is that theoriginal way to love?
No, it's not.
It came in with like, It's likea social political construct
that America used to likeassimilate indigenous people and
(09:14):
kind of make it so that landwould have a way to be land and
property would have a way to bepassed down through generations.
It wasn't about love or intimacyor sex.
It was a domestic partnership.
Yeah, most times it wasarranged.
Yeah, it
Kari (09:29):
wasn't about love then.
FOX (09:30):
Yeah.
And if you think about like whowas here, like black and brown
people, they were probably moreof like in a village tribe
kinship type of thing wherethere was intimacy, shared power
and equality.
So when you go back and youthink about where monogamy
started, it doesn't mean it's ashameful thing to do, but it
also means there are many waysto love.
What, how do you want to love?
What do you value?
You love more than one friendand one, more than one child.
(09:51):
So why are we, So rigid with howmany people you can have sex
with or be intimate with, andwhy are we rigid with, I forget
what else I was gonna say, butit was gonna be really You're
just gonna
Kari (10:04):
scream
Casey (10:04):
it out a little if it comes back out there.
I mean, if I understandcorrectly, most of the
indigenous tribes that we hadhere were, uh, uh, egalitarian
style.
Is that correct?
I believe that's what it was.
I wanna, it was almost like itwasn't they appointed.
Person with a hierarchy thatwent around, it was more of that
egalitarian style.
And it was the same way withkind of with relationships.
And it wasn't until colonizationoccurred that it started
(10:26):
becoming, this is what you'resupposed to do.
Hetero, patriarchy,
FOX (10:30):
monogamy, Christian norms.
Yeah.
And I want to research thatmore.
And I don't want to speak forindigenous communities, but I
believe that, um,heterosexuality and all these
things weren't like, it wasn't,what is that word?
Um, That's like the oppressive,dominant culture now.
There are so many other ways tolove.
And there, yeah, power,equality, different types of
(10:51):
sexu Spectrums and gender, allof these things were shared and
open and expansive.
And now we're like, there's oneway.
Man, woman, main householdperson, bloop de bloop.
That's Okay.
But do you want to do that?
I mean, wouldn't it be amazingto, it's so transcendent to love
more than one person justbecause I love more than one
person.
Does that impact my other lover?
(11:12):
Does that mean I love them less?
Like how does that make you feellike I might abandon you?
Like do we need to reaffirm eachother anyway?
Casey (11:19):
I could just keep talking.
Well, and that's the beauty ofis there's so much to dive into.
And that's one of the overallmessages we like to deliver to
people who are curious aboutopening up a relationship.
Yep.
Is to that message of don't doit until you learn a little bit
about it.
Like, hold off.
It can be exciting.
It can be something you reallywant to dive into, but like,
(11:40):
take us, take a beat.
Going through some literature,joining some groups, like look
at like various ways that youcan do this because you're gonna
run into obstacles.
And we covered a little bitabout that last time.
Um, but that actually, thatleads into probably the first
question that we have for todaythat we want our topic that we
have for today.
And this is all about how toself regulate whenever you're,
(12:02):
whenever you start dating andyour partner starts dating.
We know that as you startdating, you're going to go and
we'll get into pacing on allthis in a little bit.
But whenever you first startdating and you witness your
partner starting to go on datesand get a connection with
somebody, it can be veryunsettling for people.
FOX (12:17):
Devastating.
Yeah.
Like you want to practicepolyamory and you talked about
it and you planned it and thenyou do it and you're like, I
can't breathe.
I'm panicking.
I'm like in a ball on the floor,like crying.
Even though I, my rational brainwants it.
So yeah you're, our nervoussystems, like I said, they're
wired for monogamy.
So when you talk about how doyou regulate, I want to talk
(12:39):
about why is polyamory making medysregulate?
It's because my lizard brain isperceiving a threat.
I think that I'm going to beharmed in some way, even though
I've decided to do this with myrational brain.
So we have the stress responsewhen your body perceives a real
or imagined threat of fight,fawn or freeze.
So that's like if a tiger orbears about to come and get you,
(13:01):
But there is no tiger or bear.
So it sometimes the threat, thedanger is actually imagined or
it's not super valid where it'salmost inconvenient.
Cause you're like, I actuallywant to do this.
So yes fight, fawn or freeze.
How do we regulate?
Well, first know what it feelslike when you are regulated
versus dysregulated.
So when you're regulated, yourshoulders are down.
(13:22):
You're able to hold nuance forconversations, your eyes aren't
fixated, you're breathing well,your heart's good, you know,
you're at a good pace, there'sno tension in your body, so now
figure out what it feels likewhen you're fucked up.
When you're dysregulated, it'slike the opposite, because your
body's really intelligent andit'll start to give you signs,
so track when you're in theyellow versus when you're in the
(13:44):
red.
When you're in the red, yourlizard brain has already taken
over, and you don't care.
It's going to take you a minuteto calm down.
So ways you can regulate or wecall it co regulate when you
want to do it with your partneris I say, make like a beautiful
lip, like go to Michael's artsand crafts.
I bet you didn't think I wasgoing to say something like
this.
You're like, Oh my God, where'sthis going?
(14:04):
Get a little wooden box.
One of those ones that open likea jewelry box and you're going
to fill it with reminders.
Of how to regulate because whenyou are fucked up, it's too late
You can't remember so you'regonna write shit on little
pieces of paper like this likelisten to your favorite Spotify
playstation of like 80s and 90sdance songs um the most optimal
(14:25):
way is going running or likeExercising because back in the
day if you were chased by a bearyou ran to safety and then you
went Okay, I'm not being eaten.
So if you have the accessibilityto exercise, great.
If not, um, ask your partner ifthey'll touch you or hold you or
make eye contact, if that'shelpful, there's so many ways.
Um, seeing singing, it helpsregulate your breath too.
(14:47):
I love grounding and breathingtechniques, but not everyone
loves those, but I love thoseare some
Casey (14:51):
of my favorite or breathing tech, like box
breathing for me.
And a lot of that is what I loveto do on a daily basis.
It's just everything down.
FOX (15:00):
It resets your nerve.
It sends your, it tells yourvagus nerve, I think, to tell
your brain to give whateversignal thing.
Okay.
We're resetting.
I know.
I don't know the science of it,but
Casey (15:10):
it's okay.
I got you.
FOX (15:11):
You got me like this.
Let's put your hands on yourshoulders until your head down.
That one's my favorite.
It makes me feel high and do,um, three cycles of inhale,
exhale, and your exhales longer.
So these are all little waysthat you can regulate and
normalize talking about, youknow what, I'm offline right
now.
I'm in the yellow and that's allyou have to say.
And then your partners can helpyou change temperatures like
(15:33):
getting a fucking cold shower.
Kari (15:35):
Yeah.
Okay.
That's a good one.
Casey (15:36):
I know cold shocks and everything.
It becomes so popularized.
Most people are like, I use itfor workout and recovery.
They don't realize what it cando for your emotional regulation
as well.
FOX (15:44):
Yes.
Yeah.
We got to take care of ourselvesand be compassionate because the
lizard brains, we're stillabout, it takes like millions of
years to evolve.
So it's not our fault, but wecan be accountable for it.
Yeah.
We
Casey (15:54):
want to help to draw a lot of blood back to that.
Like what we talked about lasttime, that prefrontal cortex,
right?
Yeah.
Those are brain get into logicalbrain and start realizing, Hey,
the things that I'm, thefeelings I'm feeling, are they
linked to a specific event?
Is this something that is.
Actually happening or is thissomething that I'm worried about
happening?
And am I listening to myemotions that say, Hey, that,
that, um, that, that invisibleevent.
(16:17):
It's not actually there.
Like, it's not actually there.
And then can you take a deepbreath and go, okay, I'm clearly
worrying about something thathas not happened.
What's the potential for thishappening?
My step away from the risk andmore towards being like, I'm
actually safe.
Like it's not, this isn'tactually happening right now.
So let me start to reconnectwith myself and reconnect with
(16:38):
my partner.
FOX (16:39):
What makes you feel safe and secure?
That's got to go in one of thepost it notes because That's
what regulates us.
So you just said it right thereis thinking about that before
you're just regulated.
These are the things that makeme safe and secure.
Put them in a little box, talkto your lover about it.
And you know what?
Some things will, It's validthat they activate you.
So if they keep activating, youtalk to your lover about it or
(17:01):
notice in your lover, wow, thatkeeps activating you.
Is that like, should we changeour relationship agreement?
Should I be out all night?
Is, you know, if you're openingup from an already established
relationship, cause we knowthere's many ways to be
polyamorous.
Kari (17:13):
I like that you put a call out to the other partner as
well, because we're in thistogether.
And if one person sees that anact is triggering the other
person.
I think that's beneficial tospeak up and say something.
I like that you bring that upbecause we are responsible for
ourselves.
Absolutely.
But if we're going to be a groupand we are going to do this
together, I like how you'resaying being as open, but that
(17:35):
also being as observant.
FOX (17:37):
Yeah, being aware.
That's attunement.
When you are a baby and yourcaregivers are attuning to you
psychologically, emotionally,and physically, that's how you
build your literal attachmentstyle.
So Jessica Fern talks about itin Polysecure.
You can rebuild your attachmentstyle into a safe and secure one
when you're an adult and you cando that within yourself and you
can do that with others.
So our individualistic cultureis like, well, if you're
(18:00):
jealous, that's your problem.
If you need to regulate, that'syour thing.
No, in Polyamory, it's tribal.
It's team, like kinship.
How do we Use our power for loveand intimacy for the good.
Like, how do we connect andwatch each other?
You see your partners likedevastating.
You're like, well, I'll be backin the morning.
No, that was
Casey (18:15):
fun.
I'll see you.
It sucks.
You feel that way.
See you later.
FOX (18:18):
Yeah.
And it's hard because you haveto consider your metamors too.
Like if you're going too fastand then it's like, okay, well,
I'm going to slow down.
Well now your metamors might gethurt by that.
So it's like a really delicatebalance of trying to love
everyone.
And I've been starting torealize part of polyamory is
that we also are our own lover.
We have to love ourselves.
We are one of the people we arein relationship with.
(18:40):
So how are we going to, yeah,what were you going to say,
Casey?
I was going
Casey (18:42):
to say it's the RuPaul.
You don't love yourself.
How the hell are you going tolove anybody else?
FOX (18:47):
Okay, RuPaul.
Casey (18:50):
Yes.
Care is a huge fan of RuPaul'sdrag race and I get to sit in
and I'll watch some of theseepisodes.
It's like one of my favoriteparts of the show.
FOX (18:59):
I need to watch that show.
Cause everyone says how fuckingamazing it is.
I want to watch it.
Kari (19:04):
Even our 10 year old walks around and it was like, well, if
you don't love yourself, how theheck you going to love anybody
else?
I'm like, she gets it.
She told me she gets it
FOX (19:11):
and she'll be empowered.
I love that.
Casey (19:14):
So I have to take a quick pause because we know That
there's a lot of people thatlisten that not are not
necessarily in the know withterms whenever it comes to
polyamory.
So do us a favor and define ametamors for us really quickly.
FOX (19:25):
Yeah, your metamors are your lover's lover.
So if I'm Casey, you are datingsomeone and Carrie is not dating
that person, then that isCarrie's metamor.
Yes.
Your lover's lover.
You're not necessarily intimateor sexual with them.
And sometimes people don't liketheir metamors and sometimes.
Um, they do, but if you becomeintimate or sexual with them,
(19:46):
well now they are your lover.
They are also your lover.
Casey (19:49):
That's where we get into all those terms like kitchen
table polyamory.
Yeah.
Parallel polyamory.
FOX (19:54):
Well, and you know, I just learned parent parallel
polyamory too.
That's where it's kind ofseparate.
You're not really bringingeverybody together to meet
Casey.
Casey.
Sorry.
I went like this.
Casey, Terry.
I love that.
Okay.
Sorry.
See how distracted I got.
Yeah.
I forget what I was sayingagain.
It's
Casey (20:12):
that parallel polyamory, right?
Where it would be like, Carriehas a partner, but I don't
interact or know them at all.
Carrie doesn't know them, meetthem.
And it's just, there's anotherrelationship going on.
They have nothing to do with it.
Yeah.
It's something like kitchentable polyamory where, uh, Maybe
everyone sits down.
We're not necessarily allinvolved with each other, but
it'd be like if Carrie was in arelationship and we all sat like
(20:34):
we're all, we all hang outtogether, we're all friends,
just Carrie has her relationshipwith that person.
Also a relationship with mewhile I have a relationship with
somebody else.
And we're all just friends andtogether.
FOX (20:45):
I know.
Doesn't that sound amazing?
Casey (20:47):
A big polycule or some sort.
Yes.
FOX (20:49):
Oh my gosh.
Y'all seen, um, I don't know ifwe talked about in episode one,
did y'all see how to build a sexroom?
Casey (20:55):
Yes.
We mentioned the show in episodeone, but I don't think we dove
into, yeah, we didn't reallydive into the polycule where
they built the whole room.
FOX (21:07):
I want like a separate room that's just for sex or maybe my
bedroom should be my sex room.
But I think a lot of people aregetting into rope play and like
the vanilla people are like, andI don't use vanilla as
derogatory, but just like if youhaven't been kinky, they're
starting to embrace all theseways because of that Netflix
show.
So I love that show.
No, we
Casey (21:25):
love anything that helps like.
Pull back the curtain on kink,uh, on polyamory on all of
these, like out of the box,relational norms.
We are so in for it because allit does is open us up to be able
to talk to more people, helpmore people and just create like
a better social circle,especially whenever people are
coming in and being like, I knownothing about this.
(21:47):
Like, what can y'all tell me?
Oh my God, you know what a goodbook
FOX (21:50):
is too?
There's the best book.
It's by Kate Sloan and it'scalled 101 Kinky Things Even You
Can Do.
And it is like 101, like basics.
It's so awesome.
I, every more like everySaturday, me and my lover, we
read one during breakfast.
We're like, Ooh, gagging.
Oh my God.
Ass worship, like things I'venever even heard of.
(22:11):
And I was like, okay, bookmarkthis.
I want to try this.
This sounds too intense, but
Kari (22:16):
yeah.
Well, because I think thatpeople should just assume that
they know what their kink is.
And that's not accurate.
You have, you know, you're goingto be into, and so to have
something like that does allowyou to pull it up and be like,
Oh, okay.
Like butt plugs.
Got it.
You know what I mean?
Like, I just, I love that thereis a book that does that because
I think that people are expectedto know, but you don't know what
(22:39):
you don't know.
Like, you don't know what youdon't know.
Yes.
Casey (22:42):
This is where it's important to have a yes, no,
maybe list, like and we utilizethat in our relationship.
And then we've also created oneof our own that we, uh, that we
offer to people where they canlook at it.
And it's just a list of allthese different things and
allows them to decide ifthey're, you know, into it, if
it's like a maybe, or if it'slike, And then it's also, I
(23:04):
mean, it's the one that wecreated is fairly complex.
We were very excited about it.
Yeah.
There's a lot.
FOX (23:09):
Can you email me this list?
Casey (23:12):
I will share it with you.
Will you share
FOX (23:15):
it with me?
Cause I want to see it.
Okay.
I love that.
I
Casey (23:20):
said along with an NDA.
FOX (23:24):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
No, I'm not going to share.
I'm going to keep it reallyprivate, but I would love to see
it.
Casey (23:28):
I trust you.
Yes.
We had a fun time coming up withit.
And it's helped a lot of peoplerealize like what they want to
do, how if they want to seesomething or if they would like
to give something in terms ofall of this.
And it's fairly extensive.
And so, I mean, we were happywith it, but that's, it's such a
cool thing to be able to likeyou, what you were saying is
that you don't, you're not goingto go into kink and just all of
(23:50):
a sudden know what you're intoand know what you're not into.
It takes, just like
FOX (23:54):
polyamory.
You can talk about it and it'sso exciting because you're like,
Oh my gosh, I'm, you know, Ithink we hold back the part of
us that is attracted to otherpeople or feeling flirty or
crushing, like on our husband'sfriend or our partner's friend
or whatever.
But once you're polyamorous,you're like waking up to the
real signals you had that you'relike, Your attraction is still
there.
(24:15):
So it's really exciting.
It's exciting to open up, butthen it's also can be
devastating once you're like,now I'm jealous seeing my lover
fall in love with someone elseor flirt with someone else or be
desired.
And, you know, I love, I've beenreally thinking a lot about how.
Say we're with an alreadyestablished partner.
The day to day domestic stuffthat's like habitual and kind of
(24:36):
boring and mundane.
We don't do that with our newlovers.
So that's what polyamory keepsus like on our toes because all
of a sudden we see our metamorscompletely desiring and treating
our lover differently and we'vebeen doing all the domestic
shit.
But that also leaves a windowfor relationship neglect.
Well, how have I been showing upfor my lover?
Like, have I been doing thesethings?
(24:56):
Of course you're jealous if yourpartner's doing NRE with someone
and you've been like washingclothes at home.
Yeah.
Well, there's all these thingsto consider and you kind of have
to like, okay, I have to give tomyself, my metamorph, my lover.
It's a lot.
Like we only have so muchcapacity for time, but our
capacity to love is infinite,but not our time.
Casey (25:14):
Which I mean, that is that on a t
Kari (25:16):
shirt.
Casey (25:16):
Yeah.
Yes,
Kari (25:19):
that's not our time.
It's a super interesting
Casey (25:21):
point because people are like, you know, how can you go
in and love all these people andall that?
And we're like, well, it's notabout the capacity to love
because that capacity to love islike you say, it's infinite.
FOX (25:30):
Infinite.
Casey (25:31):
It's time management.
Yeah.
FOX (25:33):
We're human.
The concept of time feels reallyfucking real to me.
'cause I also gotta sleep.
I like to go night at like 8:00PM so I can't be out dating.
Casey (25:41):
Exactly.
And that's, it's such a greatthing because it allows also for
the monogamous people thatlisten to the show to take a
closer look at theirrelationship, because from the
time of your first year of yourrelationship begins, you decide
to be monogamous.
We have the, so many of theselike inborn rules that you're
supposed to follow.
That's like, Don't ever look atanother person and don't feel
(26:02):
feelings for anybody else.
Don't have attraction toanything else.
And that goes against our veryDNA.
FOX (26:07):
Yeah.
Casey (26:08):
And it's much more productive, we've found,
Kari (26:11):
whenever
Casey (26:12):
we actually discuss that stuff.
Kari (26:13):
Well, I also think that whenever I, like, came out, that
allowed me to not feel guilt.
For looking at people anddistracted.
FOX (26:22):
I love that.
Oh, it released you.
Yeah,
Kari (26:25):
it did.
And because, I mean, and even, Imean, now I do feel like we're
past that, but before we gotinto this concept that we really
played with and like.
Indulged in.
I always had guilt prior to.
And so that kind of opened thatveil for me personally, to feel
like I'm not wrong for beingattracted to other people.
(26:48):
I'm not wrong for havingfeelings for other people.
I'm allowed to do that.
And That was super helpful forme because I hold on to a lot of
shame my entire life onto thatshame, thinking that I was wrong
for being attracted to otherpeople.
And yeah, that was probably mybiggest thing that helped me the
most.
(27:08):
And so if you're listening tothis and you're just getting
started or you're thinking aboutgetting started, let this be
something for you.
Open up that veil.
Don't have that guilt.
Like, like you were saying, likewe have this predetermined
notion on what, And who we'resupposed to be.
And I feel like a lot of us areready to just fucking break that
mold.
Fuck that break over it.
(27:29):
We're done.
And that's another part of whywe're wanting to talk to you.
We're trying to normalize thatyou're allowed to feel the way
you feel without that shame,that you're not wrong, that
you're not broken.
You're fucking you and you lookfucking awesome.
Oh my God.
FOX (27:46):
It's like the patriarchy and heterosexuality and
monogamy, those are, that is oneexperience.
Humans are expansive andinfinite.
We cannot be rigid withourselves.
And it's beautiful to experimentand try.
And I'm so sorry that you feltthat guilt and shame.
And I think a lot of us feelthat, like, even in the BIPOC
community of like, Well, this iswho I am.
(28:06):
Why am I being like oppressed inthis way?
Or I'm queer.
Why are you oppressing me?
Well, that's just one paradigmthat people are trying to
oppress us with.
No, thank you.
I am beautiful.
I am good.
I'm attracted to other peoplebecause I have like a rotten
energy.
I have a sexual self.
It didn't die because I gotmarried or because I'm in a
(28:27):
relationship.
But another thing I want to talkto, uh, today, and I don't think
we mentioned it in the first oneis that like polyamory isn't for
everybody and it isn't for everyrelationship and it isn't for
every moment in your life.
It's okay not to be polyamorous.
Um, I think the more mainstreamit becomes, people might feel a
little pressure like, oh, it'sthe thing to do, which is kind
(28:47):
of cute.
I love that.
But I don't want people feelingpressure, but yeah, you're
right.
There are other options.
But your relationship has tokind of be in a good place to
open up.
Like it's going to exasperateshit if it's already bad.
And I don't think I mentionedthat in the first episode, so I
wanted to make sure.
Casey (29:02):
That's something that we'd love to talk about.
And that's something we dideither.
And I love that you bring it upnow because we do want people to
understand that whenever wediscussing, whenever we are
discussing polyamory, we're notsaying that it's not okay to be
monogamous.
We're not saying that you shouldfeel any sort of way about your
chosen relationship style.
Your chosen relationship styleis what's right for you.
FOX (29:23):
Yeah.
It's one that feels good, safeand secure.
That's what you should feel inany relationship.
Kari (29:28):
Even right now, we talked about it a minute ago.
Time.
We are not open right nowbecause we don't have the time.
It's not because we don't wantto.
And it's no other reason than wehave a lot personal stuff going
on.
And then we respect each otherand I'll be like, Hey, I
personally don't want to be openright now.
There's a lot going on and Iwant us to really focus on us.
(29:49):
And then we're going to openthat back up.
It doesn't have to be thisperfect timeline either.
It's just whenever you can fitit into your life.
And, but we're so ready toexplore when things settle down,
we can just allow life just tosettle a bit.
And that's another part of it.
(30:09):
Because like you said, Casey,we're not shaming at all, not at
all part of your life or neverin your life.
But again, this episode is tohelp you understand if it is for
you.
FOX (30:22):
Yeah, and let me ask you to a personal question if you want
to answer as it's being recordedand it's gonna be on the
internet.
I'll answer it first.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Consent.
Hell yes to consent.
When you do start dating, if itfeels like you're polysaturated,
like, okay, we have too manylovers or there's too much going
on, we need to slow down.
How do y'all manage that if youalready have a metamorphosis or
(30:43):
another lover and there'sfeelings involved?
How do you distance yourself?
Do you break up?
Like, do you let it phase outnaturally?
Like what happens?
Kari (30:52):
So we have always had conversations.
It's always been, but there.
Anyone that we've dated in thepast, they've been fairly
integrated into our family.
Like they come over, we all likecook together.
They like, I don't say they helpout, but like, they're part of
the tribe.
And so,
Casey (31:12):
yeah, we've never experienced like that parallel
polyamory of she has arelationship and it's mixed in
some, on some level, but it's
Kari (31:19):
always been led with always with the conversation.
And most times it's ended in usstill hanging out, us still
being friends, just knowing thatwe need to focus on us, but we
also preface it beforehand.
And we've told them there maycome a time.
That we personally need to pullback.
I don't know that we've ever hadsuch a strong connection yet,
(31:42):
but I also feel like we've beenvery clear and community has
been very
FOX (31:46):
strong.
That's transparentcommunication.
They have the power to say, Oh,well I might get too involved.
So I'm not going to be, I don'twant to be in a hierarchical
situation.
I love that.
That's so awesome.
Casey (31:58):
That's one of the big things that we have.
We know there's a lot of peopleout there that, uh, look down on
any form of hierarchical.
Polyamory.
It's unethical.
It's not okay.
Our personal view on it.
Is that right?
FOX (32:10):
Sorry.
I rolled my eyes.
I'm sorry.
I'll verbalize what I meant in amoment.
Casey (32:17):
Well, the way that we see it is as long as there's clear
and open community, let's justsay, and listen we do come from
a 15 year relationship and weare considering ourselves as the
anchor of all of this.
So we've made the question.
to come out.
If you're okay with that, we'llwant to pursue this.
Kari (32:35):
You
Casey (32:35):
can have that conversation.
And they've
Kari (32:37):
never not wanted to pursue it.
Because we've been very clear.
FOX (32:42):
I love, I mean, that's beautiful.
That's love.
People are going to ebb and flowout of diets to triads to quads.
Don't, we can't shape, we can'tmarginalize an already
marginalized population.
Why are we making rules on howto love?
How is it unethical to have ananchor partner?
I mean, that just happensnaturally.
Sometimes if you have a childwith someone, you're sharing
more time investment anddomestic responsibilities, and I
(33:05):
absolutely, this hierarchicalthing, it's unethical.
It's unethical.
It, how it can't, it'simpossibly unethical if you are
giving people empowertransparency communication
because they can say, you knowwhat, that works perfect for me.
I want to be in a hierarchicalsituation where I'm secondary
because I don't want to give youall my energy either.
So this is great.
Or you know what?
No, thank you.
(33:26):
Because eventually I might wantto live with y'all.
Casey (33:28):
And I don't know, so you know what, and we've had a
relationship before wheresomebody came to us and said,
Hey, at this point, I now wantto go and look for a more
serious relationship.
So we're going to end thingshere.
Or go back to being friends.
We all hang out and I'm going togo look for my, a primary
partner for myself.
Kari (33:47):
Yeah.
And then we're all friends andwe all hung out and it was fine.
FOX (33:53):
Like shine the light on that carry.
I love that because.
That is so polyamorous to belike, we didn't just break up,
we just ended maybe the sexualcomponent of the relationship,
but we were still intimate andconnected and kind and had a
friendship.
That's polyamory.
You don't have to break up.
You can do other things thatmake sense.
Okay, go ahead.
Kari (34:12):
No, I mean, honestly that's exactly what happened.
That's perfect.
And then you're right.
Like it doesn't have, and thatis such a monogamy mindset too.
As we break up, we're nevertalking again.
You are dead to me.
Yes.
It's not really like that in thequeer community.
We're all still friends.
Casey (34:28):
Okay.
So well, that's the point that Iwas about to come up and be
like, I don't know if this isgoing to like coming from me as
like a, It's just hetero malesound ignorant, but I feel like
looking at that where theability to flow in and out of
relationships that have sexual,uh, tendencies that remove from
that, that remain friends andall that.
I feel like that's like a cornercornerstone of the queer
(34:50):
community.
And I have such like respect forthe queer community because I've
watched so many of my friends belike, well, we're dating and now
we're not dating and we're stillhanging out all the time.
And I'm dating this person.
It just flows.
FOX (35:02):
There's fluid, fluidity.
Casey (35:05):
And I'm like, you don't see this.
No.
You have so many toxic peopleonline that it's like, it's
impossible for, you know, malesand females to be friends and
it's impossible to do this.
And I'm sitting there doing itall the fucking time.
And they say, okay,
FOX (35:24):
The amazing thing about not being heterosexual is there's no
longer a script.
And when there is no script,there is this expansive
potential of rewriting a scriptbased on your values and
beliefs.
That's what I love about likepolyamory and queer communities
and even kink.
It's like, let's write this in away that works for everybody.
What do you love?
What turns you on?
(35:45):
We don't have to do it likeeverybody else.
And I think that like fills usup with love because all of a
sudden there's no rules.
We get to make them.
And as long as there'scompassion, consent,
transparency, respect, andattunement, we're watching out
for each other, we're good togo.
There's no wrong way to loveunless you're hurting someone.
That's not love.
Kari (36:03):
Yeah, that's not love.
Casey (36:04):
Exactly.
FOX (36:06):
And that's a wrap.
God, hard people.
Yeah, it's so hard.
It's just, it's a new way.
And you know what?
It is unsettling and scary towrite a script.
Like, like me as a femme, I'mlike, Oh my God, how am I going
to date a femme?
There's no script.
I'm so scared.
Like all my cute, romanticthings I do with the boys, like
people who identify as boys, ifI do that to like someone's fam,
who's fam, they're going to knowall my tricks.
(36:26):
I'm like, I need a fuckingscript.
I don't know how to do this, butit's also exciting.
Cause I get to, um, really likelook into myself and be aware of
what's feeling good.
And I don't know, I kind of likebeing scared.
It's, it makes me feel alive.
Like I get to figure this out onmy own terms.
Casey (36:42):
Absolutely cut.
FOX (36:44):
I'm reading Girl Sex one on 1 0 1 right now.
Yeah.
Which is about like how to belike obviously with Vulvas and
how to be, and I'm just like, ohmy God, I can't believe I have a
vulva and I don't know thesethings.
Like no one taught me.
Right.
But wait, Casey, what?
You were just laughing a momentago.
What were you laughing at?
'cause I wanna know,
Casey (37:02):
take me back to what we were saying was because I, my
brain went Me too and then wejust moved on.
So back, I think we something.
FOX (37:10):
Oh, no script.
Not having a script makes you itliberates you.
You can
Casey (37:15):
You caught me, huh?
FOX (37:17):
Yeah, I caught you, bitch! Sorry, you're not a bitch.
I mean,
Casey (37:21):
no, you're not.
You're a bitch in a good
FOX (37:22):
way.
You're
Casey (37:23):
a bitch.
You're fine.
You're completely okay.
No, you had said that you weretalking about, uh, um, Being a
femme.
Oh yeah.
And then flirting or becomingmore sexualized with another fem
and how do you handle that andall that.
And I immediately in my head,thought about Carrie be because
Carrie is switches between, youswitch between fem and mask.
(37:44):
Oh yeah.
And I've seen Carrie and I'veseen Carrie go, like, for
somebody that's more femme andthen watch her become more
masked in that moment, and thenwatch her flirt.
That's somebody, and then gowith somebody that's more
masked.
And then watch it become likevastly feminine.
So I'm on the outside endwatching that and it just
triggered some memories of minethat I'm like, Oh my God.
Kari (38:04):
It's because I adapted the situation.
If you need me to take control,I'm gonna do it really fast.
But if you take control, I'mgonna let you.
FOX (38:12):
Oh, yeah, that is so erotic to me that you are so expansive
and you can just flow in andout.
And I love both.
I mean, wow.
That's how I want to live mylife.
When I die, I want to haveexperienced as many edges and
parts of my heart and soul aspossible, as parts of my erotic
and sexual self.
(38:32):
Like, I want to have bumped upagainst the end of myself in
this lifetime.
There you go.
Kari (38:40):
It's really funny though, because when Casey was smirking,
I was having the thought in myhead of, I was like, Oh, you
just dominate him.
That's easy.
I know.
That's so hot.
Literally smirking while I hadthat.
I know.
I saw
FOX (38:53):
the whole fucking thing unfold right before my eyes.
I'm really into being dom.
Like I didn't know I would likethat, but there is something
it's that taboo nature.
It's that power dynamic.
And yeah, I want consent first.
Like don't just fucking dom mewhen I'm in the kitchen.
Like, You, I, like, I need alittle bit of, like,
forewarning, um, and consent andtalk about it, but yes,
sexually, I'm, like, dom me, andI don't want to tell you how to
(39:16):
dom me, I want you to know howto dom me, because I can't dom
me.
Because you're a
Kari (39:18):
brat.
FOX (39:19):
Huh?
Kari (39:20):
Because you're a brat.
FOX (39:21):
Oh.
You think so?
Yes, I think there's a load of.
Wait, can we define brat?
What is, what do you mean?
Because I'm like, wait, am I a
Kari (39:30):
brat?
Because for me, you want to bedominated, but you don't want to
tell them how to, that's a brat.
Casey (39:35):
That's.
Because I think there's
Kari (39:37):
like a definition of Brad.
There's like a specific That'snot a
Casey (39:40):
definition.
That's a characteristic.
Fine, but I'll go
Kari (39:43):
with that.
I'll easily go with that.
But
Casey (39:45):
that person wants to push back.
Kari (39:47):
Yeah.
It's a pushback.
The
Casey (39:48):
brat is the person that wants to like push back.
If somebody is trying to like bemore dominant, tell them what to
do.
And they're going to turn backaround and push back and give
them the challenge and give themthe resistance.
FOX (39:57):
So it's not truly being done then.
Casey (40:00):
So it can be, but it's that power of the sub to be
like, I'm going to allow thisdomination to occur, which you'd
be submissive to a person thatyou choose to be submissive to
being submissive.
But there's all those differenttypes.
It can be one of those that it'slike is dumb sub where they're
(40:21):
like very So very submissivewhere it's like, whatever you
say to do, I'm going to do it.
And then also that buddy stuffthat is like, you're going to
tell me what to do.
And I'm going to turn around andI'm going to tell you, no,
respond to that with like, okay,well now we're going to go and
you're going to get punished.
It's
Kari (40:39):
really what we want in the first place.
Casey (40:41):
See, yes, we're going to go up there and we're going to
do some impact play and you'regoing to be like, Oh no,
FOX (40:48):
I'm totally learning something about myself today.
Thank you so much for teachingme.
You know what?
I am a brat.
And my partner told me thatlike, if I go on a date, like,
When I do go on a date, and if Icome home, I'm like, Okay, well,
I like, kissed a femme today,cause that's like, that's where
I'm resonating right now, iswith femmes.
If I come home and I kissed afemme, then I'm gonna get a
penance.
And I was like, wait, I'm gonnaget punished?
(41:08):
I was like, well, can I justhave the punishment now?
He's like, no, bitch! You haveSo that's really fun.
I love how we're, we keep going,hitting up against kink today,
even though we're supposed to
Kari (41:21):
have you on again, but just about kink.
FOX (41:24):
Well, I need to finish my Kate Sloan book and then I'll
come back and we'll talk aboutkink.
Cause I want to learn everythingI can.
And I want to go to some playparties, you know, even if I'm a
voyeur, a consensual voyeur, Iwant to like see what's up in
these kink communities, havesome fun.
Casey (41:39):
Go hit up your local dungeon is a really good way to
do that and find one in yourarea.
Go to a dungeon night wherethere may be focusing on impact
play or Shabari or they'refocusing on a lot of them
through they'll host events on aweekly basis where it's, there's
a certain focus and you show up.
You don't have to participate.
You can be an observer.
And
FOX (41:59):
not all of them are like having actual, like people
having like intercourse orpenetration or close off.
There's all different types ofspeeds and variations.
Nine 10.
We host a really good one in LosAngeles and they have events all
the time.
I've been to one centric becausesometimes BIPOC community.
We want to maybe stay with eachother and feel safe, and that's
(42:20):
just the way, and sometimes wedon't, that's up to us.
But um, Squeeze LA and 910 WeHogot together at one point and
did something, and it was sosexy.
And it was like red lights, andlike there was a spanking area,
and like there was a striptease, it was so beautiful.
But I do want to go to somethingsoon.
Plora also has a bunch ofevents.
Okay.
(42:41):
I don't know where you are, butyou don't have to tell me.
I'm like,
Casey (42:43):
Oh, we're in Fort Worth, Texas.
If
FOX (42:46):
you come to LA, can we meet?
Casey (42:48):
100%.
FOX (42:49):
Okay.
Casey (42:50):
That would be fun.
Can we be friends?
Oh, yes, of course we can.
We have, I mean, I thought wealready were.
Oh, yeah, that was the answer Iwas
FOX (42:58):
looking for.
Carrie.
I just
Kari (43:00):
called all your personal stuff.
So we're basically our bestfriends now.
FOX (43:04):
Oh my god, you're my best friend.
Casey (43:08):
Okay.
All right.
So, uh, it looks like we havejust a little bit of time left.
Yeah, I want to cover anotherquestion and I think this one is
super pertinent is this is so wewant to talk about how to handle
whenever your partner startsmoving faster than you do and
the dating communities ofpolyamory.
So for an example, say that meand Carrie were open and all of
(43:30):
a sudden she's got like datesjust coming down the pipe.
She's literally like, Oh, I'mgoing on one on Tuesday and then
on Thursday I have Saturday.
And then I might sit back and belike, I'm still looking or I
only have this one person I'm ina relationship with right now is
how do you handle those likedifferent drives of wanting to
be in various relationshiptypes?
FOX (43:52):
Do you mean like when someone's going faster than
you're comfortable with?
Or do you mean, what do I dowhen my partner's dating and I'm
not dating and I wish I was?
Casey (44:00):
Um, I'd love to cover both of those.
FOX (44:04):
Just kidding.
Okay.
I don't know why I did that.
Um, okay, so we'll do the firstone.
If your partner's dating fasterthan you, and it's
uncomfortable, I think we needto sit down and ask each other,
why are we doing this together?
Cause we're not single.
Single means I can do whatever Iwant, whenever I want, with
whoever I want.
Poly, doing polyamory we're ateam, we're doing it together.
(44:26):
We're attuning to each other.
We're seeing if each other isactivated.
So if one person is movingfaster, I know it can be
frustrating to slow down, but ifyou are going at such a fast
rate that it's harming yourpartner, even though you don't
mean to, it's not going to besustainable.
Everyone in polyamory has tobenefit.
Otherwise they're not going towant to do it.
Some monog, more monogamousleaning people or people who
(44:47):
want to move slow.
They're saying, well, my goal inpolyamory is just to make my
partner happy.
That's why I'm doing it.
That's not a strong enough goal.
You need a reason for yourself.
Why does it bring you joy?
Why does it benefit you?
Why does it benefit yourrelationship?
So if you're going too fast,someone's going too fast, you're
going to end up maybefrustrated, really sad, kind of
traumatized and you're not goingto want to do it.
(45:09):
So, you know, in polyamory it'slike, Hey, we could not be
together and I could just gofuck and love whoever I want.
Or if we're going to do ittogether, why is it special
between us?
Why are we doing it together?
Casey (45:20):
So I'd love to bring it back around to like, what does
it benefit us versus you're notjust going off and living a
single life.
That's the
FOX (45:29):
urgency.
Like, let's look at why you'reurgent.
Sometimes people have feltcontrolled or stifled in their
earlier life.
So once they have the free passto be liberated, they just they
go.
It's like their nervous system'slike, go.
Or if maybe developmentally at acertain age, maybe you didn't
get to experience being queer orknowing your authentic self or
being polyamorous.
(45:49):
So now once you have the label,you're like, I have to go do it
now.
So looking at what is that senseof urgency about and how are you
impacting others?
And if you are going to slowdown it, but you're frustrated.
What other channels can you useto kind of download that love
and that fuel for life and thatpassion?
Like, what other ways can youmeet your needs while you're
(46:10):
going slow until your partnercatches up?
Because we want polyamory to besustainable.
Otherwise, we're just gonna giveup.
It's gonna suck.
Casey (46:17):
Yeah.
And if you, like you said, ifyou just kind of shoot out the
gate and go for it through allthis stuff with that sense of
urgency, it's not sustainable.
FOX (46:23):
Yeah.
But I get that it's frustratingfor the faster person.
I understand that, but you know,we don't get everything.
Well, Hey, this, the person whowanting to go slower, they're
uncomfortable too.
Casey (46:32):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
That was going to be a curiositycause I know that you can have
people that open up into thisand you might have a partner
that's out there to seek a deep,deeper connection in a
relationship.
And another partner that's like,well, I'm here for the hookup
culture.
Yeah.
So like trying to reconcilethose different, Viewpoints, it
can be a very difficult thing todo.
(46:53):
Yeah, I
FOX (46:53):
think defining, when you start, before you start
polyamory, or at least onceyou've started and it's already
like full force ahead, what isdating?
Because for some people it'sjust fucking, for some people
it's just play parties, for somepeople it's just dating.
Platonic romantic relationships.
For some people it's like, Oh,I'll be home tomorrow.
That's a dating.
And you're like, what?
I just met you.
We're going to go and have padThai.
(47:14):
And now you're coming home inthe morning.
So define what dating is.
And I think we should startchecking in with our lovers
before polyamory begins of whathave been your dating
experiences?
Have you been traumatized orhurt in the past?
What was your relationship likewith your parents?
Like kind of being a little bitof a therapist and
investigating, because that'sgoing to say a lot about their
dating style.
(47:35):
Yeah.
Yeah, and what's going to workfor them and then negotiate and,
you know, just be reallyspecific about what we're doing
and, you know, write down yourrelationship agreements and
they're going to evolve as youget safe, more safe and secure.
That's the amazing thing.
As you get comfortable with eachother, I think your dating
styles could probably align, butyou know, if you're
uncomfortable with yourpartner's dating style, you're
going to want to talk about it.
Casey (47:54):
Yeah, those that dating style stuff is one thing that we
like to talk to people aboutwhatever they're going through
their regular, their, you know,monogamous relationship as we
try, we tell as many people aswe can, is to figure out as much
about yourself as possible, asmuch about your partner as
possible, not only just inexperiences, but what are your
separate, what are yourattachment styles?
(48:14):
What are you, if you could, themore you can really.
Becoming attuned to yourself andwith your partner, the more
chances of success you have andthe less chance you have about
like really creating some damagethat might be irreparable to
your relationship.
FOX (48:29):
Word.
Yes.
We don't think about that causewe're just so excited, but yeah,
it would be wonderful to createa little safety vessel for you
and your partner.
to kind of reconnect polyamorycheck ins once a week.
What's going well?
What isn't?
Are you getting your needs met?
Is anything harming you?
Are you saying yes when youmeet, when you mean to say no?
Do you feel pressured inanything?
Are we going too fast?
Are we going too slow?
Kari (48:51):
I like that.
I
FOX (48:52):
hope everyone was writing those down that quickly.
Write that shit down.
Write it down.
Use it.
I'm like doming the audience.
I'm so sorry.
I didn't even ask.
No, I'm just kidding.
So much compassion.
We are just human.
We are just Trying to be excitedand love.
I totally understand.
Yes.
Casey (49:12):
Fox.
You're amazing.
FOX (49:14):
You're amazing.
Casey (49:17):
I mean, like you're going like, we're already running out
of time.
I'm going, damn it.
I
FOX (49:21):
know I, we have such chemistry.
I was telling my lover, I reallylove these two.
Like are doing a podcast withthem.
There's just all this frenetic.
It beautiful chemistry andenergy and I wanna say thank
you.
Thank you for having me on yourshow.
Of course.
Well, we're happy to have you.
Well, I'm being
Kari (49:36):
very serious about having you back on.
Like, I agree.
There's a such a good flow.
We're gonna
Casey (49:40):
fly it to LA and we're gonna find a podcast.
You, we a live episode.
And we're gonna do, we're rentit out day.
Y'all gonna a live one?
No, we're gonna, oh my God.
I'm
FOX (49:48):
be sitting between you two like this.
We're not even, we're gonna beso distracted.
We're not gonna do it.
And you know what?
Yes.
Like, let's.
Like one day we'll meet inperson, but we're gonna do more
podcasts.
I'm writing a book.
Yep.
Yes.
That's a process.
But, and then, um, people canfind me at the polyamory
therapist everywhere.
I have a website and on thesocial medias.
But yeah, I wanna reconnect withyou two.
(50:10):
So this won't be the last thingwe do at all.
No,
Kari (50:12):
no.
FOX (50:12):
We have, we're in a relationship.
This is a type of polyamorypodcast.
Sorry that was a bad joke.
I told you I'm not good atJokes.
Casey (50:19):
Podcast Ann Marie.
Got it.
All right.
Well, for another episode ofcome with Casey, we are your
host.
Kari (50:27):
I'm Carrie Sanders.
I'm Dr.
Casey
Casey (50:29):
Sanders.
Kari (50:30):
I'm Fox Arrows.
Casey (50:31):
And there's Fox Arrows.
Thanks again, Fox.
And we'll see you next time.
FOX (50:37):
I'll miss you.
Bye.
Bye.
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