March 10, 2025 • 39 mins
A key to happiness in long lasting relationships is not taking things too fucking seriously. Creating games around your intimacy is a great way to achieve this. In this episode we discuss fluid sexuality and how playing games with each other can bring you closer together.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to naughty by nature.
Kari (00:01):
Hey, I
know we are your hosts.
I'm Dr.
Casey Sanders and
I'm Carrie Sanders.
I know.
So I, I'm going to go ahead andsay, I have a little bit of
imposter syndrome because sobeing a, like for everybody that
knows that listens to the show,they know I'm a chiropractor.
They do know.
So each time I
say like, uh, Dr.
Casey Sanders, I don't ever wantto give the impression that I'm
like a, uh,
(00:23):
You're a doctor.
Yes.
No, you're a doctor.
There's no elevation to it.
You're a fucking doctor.
I lied.
The fact like I went, I went tothe eight years of school, you
got the degrees.
Yep.
I was there for it.
Exams.
Yeah.
Did all the very, very
chaos.
Remember all that
did all the hard shit and youaccomplished all of it.
But sometimes the impostersyndrome sets in and being like,
you really shouldn't let that happen to you.
(00:44):
You really shouldn't.
You're a fucking doctor.
You've worked for it.
I hear you.
I really do.
But at the same time, like.
No, because of how much work youhad to put in, it wasn't any
different for you to put in thesame amount of work as like an
MD.
It was the same thing, but maybedifferent like conversations,
right?
Yeah.
Pharmacological studies, wherey'all
went into like neurology,
(01:06):
right?
Yes.
Typically MDs go more of apharmacological pharmacology.
I like that word.
I like that word.
They, they study pharmacologymore and we study.
More on a different end,
but that makes sense though, right?
Like you, a chiropractor versusan MD really at the base of it,
you're receiving the same levelof information.
(01:26):
Yeah, we have to know the humanbody.
Yeah.
So if you, yeah, we strip itdown to how well do you know the
human body?
How well can you?
Uh, describe systems within thehuman body.
It's very, very, very similar.
So anyway, and
it makes sense.
Anyways, it makes sense for thesplit to be pharmacy,
pharmaceuticals for them.
And then exactly.
Neurology versus
natural healing.
(01:46):
So anyway, I'm Dr.
Casey
Sanders and I'm still just his wife, Carrie Sanders.
Anyways, I'm still just hiswife, Carrie Sanders.
Yeah.
What else am I supposed
to say?
I feel like you're minimizingyourself.
You're a fucking doctor.
Of course, I'm going to minimizemyself.
I'm a hair, I'm a hair stylist.
(02:07):
I want a
therapist that's listening todive into that.
Please do.
Yeah.
Like
you're justifying minimizingyourself.
I always justifying minimizing myself every day.
That's
just, I do all this, you do abunch of cool shit.
You're successful in yourcareer.
You do amazing things.
And then you refer to yourselfas just his wife.
(02:29):
I'm going to take away somebucks.
Don't that's not fair.
We didn't agree to thatbeforehand and we'll, we'll get
into that later with what weneed, but
anyways, rude.
So, um, the biggest discussionthat we have today is going to
be focusing around, like.
(02:49):
Being playful with your partner,how to play with your partner,
how to like, okay.
Yeah, I might as well How tolike
gamify.
Yes.
I love, we wanna
gamify the relationship.
Can you like, break down what gamify means?
Yeah.
First
it's, yeah, of course.
Okay.
Oh, it means turning into agame.
That's it.
That, no, that's it.
That's fucking it.
Okay.
Anyways, turn your relationshipinto a game.
(03:12):
It it, but it means
creating an environment in yourrelationship where things do
feel.
Like a game, like playful.
I, for myself, I love videogames.
I know that you love videogames, video game, not as much
of an extent, but I know thatyou enjoy sitting down and
playing games with us andplaying games with the kids and
me.
I
think that I could dive in deeply into video games, but I
(03:35):
almost have to refrain myself.
Well, you were younger.
I was a huge gamer when I was akid.
Um, I love final fantasy.
I love the stories.
I love that type of, it was likean RPG.
I was so into the whole conceptaround it.
You were big on the turn
based too, right?
Like, so Final Fantasy beinglike, you go, I go, you go, I
(03:57):
go.
But that was really, well, it was just introduced to me.
I didn't really know gamingoutside of like RPGs, but you
liked huge gamer.
You liked a lot of the, thestory driven like the cinematics
and the cut scenes and the, Allof that, right?
Can you imagine a video game, but with like the smut
(04:18):
book concept?
Yeah, they have those.
They didn't do very successful.
Well, no, I actually have no fucking clue, but I'm not
surprised that it didn't dowell, but damn, I'd be so into
it.
Oh
no, I'm certain that there's alarge market for it.
It's just, they don't know howto,
they don't
know how to make it withoutgetting in trouble.
That's fair.
They don't know how to make agood like romanticy.
(04:40):
Game,
Put my smut books into a video game.
Oh, how would that look like?
God, how would that look for youthough?
I don't
know.
I play so hard though.
I have no idea what that wouldlook.
Well, I mean, is it somethingwhere you play through the game
and then sex scenes happen orare you playing, are you like
playing through the sex scene?
I
don't think I'd want to play.
No, I'm here to watch.
(05:00):
It'd be like Parappa the rapper,but like, was you remember that
game?
No.
Parappa the rapper, they woulddo dance moves and you'd have to
in time.
Press the corresponding button.
So it would have like, sayyou're playing on PlayStation.
It would be like circle, squareX and triangle.
Right.
And it would be tempo driven.
So like guitar hero or anythingelse you're having to keep in
time with it.
(05:20):
So would it be like that for asex scene or it's like thrust
thrust thrust thrust
maybe X Y triangle, right?
Whatever.
But like
wear out so many controllers,
I would write, I would rather earn it.
Like I beat this boss.
And after this boss.
Boom.
Big sex scene.
(05:40):
I'm just going to sit back andwatch.
That's what I would want.
Okay.
So this, the sex scene would belike a reward.
Yeah.
Like I don't want to work forit.
Casey, you have all people.
No, I don't want to work for it.
You do or don't want to work.
Don't.
I just want to sit back and observe it, you know?
Right.
So a non interactive sex scenewhere you play through, you get
an achievement.
(06:01):
Now I get to sit back and watchmy porn.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
That would be good for me as areward based.
Girl.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
So if we were going to look atthat, then what would, what
would a scene like that looklike?
Cause I mean, think about theromance series that we've gone
through so far.
Are we talking like it would belike a, a three dicks mermaid?
No, I think actually I think it would be more, um, what
(06:24):
do they call it when they, um,ship ship things, right?
So I would want a scene where.
Whatever I did in the past toearn said shipping, I would want
it to happen on screen.
So you can have this big RPGgame, open world, where you can
craft relationships withdifferent people.
(06:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Because they have somethingsimilar, but it's not explicit
sex scene.
So if you take like newer gameslike Baldur's Gate, which is
essentially D& D on the screen,right?
You can craft relationships withmost of the characters in the
game.
And whenever you, whenever youactually get to where there's a
romantic scene, it starts andthen they kind of like cut back.
Like you'll have like a toplesscharacter or something, or
(07:07):
you'll see like a penis, butthere's no explicit sex scenes
that cut away.
Can you see a penis?
Sure.
Do you have a
topless and you have a penis?
Sure.
Okay.
Yeah.
Why not?
Okay.
Go ahead.
Do you not know about mycharacter?
Willow on Baldur's Gate 3?
I do
know about Willow.
Can you describe Willow for us?
You want me to?
I kind of want you to at this point.
Well, Willow is my, my transbarbarian that I made.
(07:31):
Trans barbarian?
Yeah.
What made you think that?
Trans and then barbarian
because I love
the concept.
I honestly,
I would, I would want to be a barbarian.
I feel like I'm a barbarian, butI'm not a femme barbarian.
So I go ahead.
No, uh, my, my, the barbarianthat I created her, what, like a
year ago or so me and my sonwere playing and we were
(07:52):
crafting new characters.
I created a barbarian that was,uh, I mean, as a trans woman,
very, very masculine.
Um,
Yep.
Very mask presenting.
Yeah.
With a penis.
Yeah.
I mean, I love her.
She's, she's amazing.
She kills so many fuckingpeople.
Got it like this flaming swordat the beginning and did all
(08:13):
sorts of stuff.
Um, I wish I could go furtherinto it right now, but I'm kind
of like without seeing herpresented on screen that you're
not going to really know aboutWillow, but Willow's got a happy
backstory.
She's done amazing thingsthroughout her time.
So how would you feel if I.
You know, 10 years into ourrelationship came to you and
said, I would like to be maskedpresenting from here on out.
(08:39):
I mean, let's, let's go with it.
Let's, let's see what happens.
I know that there's been a lotof like, we've seen the
discussion a lot.
Um, and we've talked about thisbook a number of times, but, um,
uh, I'm learning shame.
Uh, Devin price's book, uh, whois a, who is a trans woman.
And whenever.
I'm sorry, a trans man.
And whenever he went through histransition process, he had been
(09:00):
in a relationship and that itruined his relationship.
Yeah.
Uh, he doesn't hold, now doesn'thold resentment to the partner
because of what that allentails, but it does bring up
important questions of like whatyou're asking.
How would you feel if I were tocompletely alter myself?
Because I tend to be or even
finding myself to be my true form, but I maybe didn't
(09:20):
disclose that
true form.
Yeah.
But I didn't, I didn't disclosethat to you.
Uh, I.
I would support you andeverything.
I don't know how that would lookin a romantic relationship
moving forward, but I know thatI would support you in it.
I'd want you to be your happiestself
because at the end of the day, you definitely find
yourself as like straight male.
(09:42):
Um, I, I consider myself acisgender male.
Um, I, I, I think I'm straight.
That's been, but I alsounderstand that sexuality is
fluid.
I've found myself attracted tomen in the past.
Um, sexual attraction hasn'tgone further than a lot of the
surface.
Yeah.
And I, I've.
(10:04):
I've wanted to explore more ofthat, but I haven't been super
sure how to do that because I,
because
you asked me the other day,you're like, Hey, have you ever
watched do you ever watch, like,uh, do you ever watch male, like
male on male porn?
And like, how do you feel aboutthat?
And I, my response, I believewas like, Oh, I kind of tried to
see if it, just see if itaroused me at all.
(10:26):
And I, I didn't have much of anarousal for it, but my response
to you was.
It was something about seeinglike a masculine face temp to
take on a feminine form that Iwas like, this, I don't know if
it was a confusion.
I don't know if it was justwhat, but it, it didn't.
Like take me along a road ofarousal.
(10:47):
Now, of course, let's keep inmind that we're watching
pornography, right?
It's not real life, but it's thesame thing of watching Hollywood
on screen.
Right.
So I I've made an attempt tokind of explore it a little bit,
but it's hasn't gone any furtherthan that.
I'm interested in, in exploringthat a little bit more and never
know what I might find.
I think that one of my.
Favorite things that I've seen,what came from, um, Dr.
(11:08):
Joe court, whenever he talksabout, uh, sexual fluidity and
how your sexuality can be fluidthroughout your entire lifetime.
So that doesn't mean that yourealize that you're homosexual
or bisexual whenever you'reyounger, and then that's the way
you are for your entire life.
You can actually dip in and outof various ways as you go
through things.
So it's been an interest.
(11:29):
I love that because it doesn't make it so like
concrete.
This is how I feel, so this mustmean how I feel for the rest of
my life.
Yeah.
This is me and this will alwaysbe me.
Yeah.
And that's not really how itworks.
Like especially someone, I thinkit's more
fun to explore.
Yeah.
Especially as someone speakingfrom a, like a bisexual mindset.
Like I used to think like, areyou really bisexual because
(11:51):
you've mostly been with men, butit ebbs and flows.
Yeah.
There are times in my life that I'm like, God, I, I really
wanna be with a woman.
Mm-hmm
And, and then there are times where kind of, I think
you used the, what was the wordyou used the other day?
Uh, crave.
Yeah, I as you have
a desire to crave.
Yes.
And I and I am in my cravephase, I will admit.
But yeah, like there are timesand it doesn't make me feel less
(12:13):
bisexual because there's a pointwhere I'm not really craving
that.
Um, but that was something thateven I had to kind of like
figure out knowing that I wasbisexual way early on in my
life, like that was interestingfor me to understand.
And I love that the concept oflike, it ebbs and flows.
It's not a straight line.
You can find times where you'relike, really into in times where
(12:35):
it kind of like dies down alittle bit.
I
think it brings up aninteresting point that we try to
quote, normalize.
Things or we try to, I
hate normal, I hate normalizing.
We,
we try to solidify things.
Yeah.
We, we try to label somethingand then say, this thing never
changes.
And for whatever reason, we dothat with, with our, our, our
fellow man, our humans thatexist.
(12:57):
And we try to say, here's whatyou are.
Here's your label.
It doesn't change whenever everyshred of evidence points to the
exact opposite, that everythingis fluid, literally everything
that we know on some level,
your diet.
As, as you were like sexualorientation, right?
(13:19):
Like there are times where I'mlike, I'm super into one aspect
of this in my life.
And then I'm going to decrease alittle bit.
Like for someone that'slistening to our show and you
have a very straight sexualorientation.
That's great, but think about itbeing more fluid, and that's why
I brought up a diet, right?
Like, think about the times thatyou're really, really into it,
(13:40):
and there's times that it kindof like falls off a little bit.
It doesn't make you not a,you're not an unhealthy person,
it just means that you findtimes to like really like dive
into it in times that you'relike, eh, and maybe I might find
myself a little bit morerelaxed.
If you think about that as yoursexuality, It really opens up
the scope of allowing you tounderstand that there are ebbs
(14:01):
and flows in your own sexualitythat can be altered and changed
and fluid.
So really,
I kind of like the way that yousaid that.
I can be smart too sometimes.
So what kind of brought a lot ofthis up was the discussion of
our podcast today, because
we had an idea and they werelike, hold on, let's talk about
(14:22):
our sexuality.
We kind of went a little bit, but it, I promise you,
it'll still kind of dial back,but like.
Understand that Casey and I havebeen in a relationship for
almost like 15 years.
We're 15 years.
This
is, this is year 15 for everyonethat we've said 15 years for the
last two years.
Let's not worry about that.
Anyways, we're, we are now it's 15 years.
(14:44):
And our relationship.
Again, just as a fucking diet,it ebbs and flows.
We find times where we're likereally peaked out and we're,
we're really fucking for eachother, and we find times that
we're like maybe a little bit ata lull,
a little bit at a low.
We've been at some heavy highsand some low lows.
Yeah.
But the point is of what our, our show is today is like
maybe you're finding yourself asa at, at a low.
(15:07):
Here are ways to like.
Increase that.
Get away from it.
Remove yourself from the lowthat you find yourself.
I'm going
to, I'm going to counter that alittle bit was saying you should
do this whether you're at a highor a low.
What we're talking about today,
but if you're at a low promise you this is gonna like,
I would, I would hope that it'ship to do this thing.
(15:28):
If you find yourself at a lowand you start attempting to do
this and you're like, this isn'tworking, why isn't working?
That's okay.
Yes, of course.
It's one thing to
try.
It's one thing.
Yeah.
We're,
we're not here to tell you this is what's going to fix
things.
We're saying, try this and seewhat works for you.
podcast about creating a, agame, gamifying your
(15:51):
relationship.
And the first question we wantto, we want to answer is, well,
why the hell would I want to dothat in the first place?
Um, big one is going to bebecause it's going to increase
your intimacy.
One of our goals here, as youknow, is that we want to bring
couples closer together.
We want to bring anyrelationship style closer
together and and build that.
So one of the ways that we dothat is by increasing your
(16:13):
intimacy by playing games witheach other.
at a time whenever you may notrecognize or know how to do
that.
That's what we're here for.
We're here to give you the waysin which you can do
that.
The other next one is going tobe to build morale in the
relationship.
If you've ever seen anything onthe subject of morality,
(16:34):
building morale, you
understand how important it isfor people to feel a sense of
community, a sense oftogetherness in order to help
boost themselves and each otherto the next level.
What was that damn movie that we used to watch?
That was not the movie I'mthinking of.
That's a different level ofmorale.
Respectful, but different.
No, what was the, the, uh, therewere servers and they, they
(16:56):
invented it, like, the, the Oh!Waiting! Waiting! Yeah! Right?
Early,
earlier Ryan Reynolds.
Very early Ryan Reynolds.
But, it was a, it was a, a movieabout building morale within the
company that you work for.
And so they created this Penisshowing game.
And within this, it wasliterally just a way for the
employees to work together, tohave a good time, to build
(17:19):
morale, because morale built upthe restaurant was built it up.
The customers was built up themoney.
They realized that on the grand
scope of things that they wereemployees in a job and that that
didn't always appeal toeverybody.
So having a way in which you canconnect with each other.
Allowed them to feel moretogether, allowed them to feel
more closeness in terms offriendship.
(17:40):
So
then, like, how do you do that in your relationship?
How do you build morale?
What is the penis showing gamefor your relationship?
Exactly.
And the penis showing game inyour relationship can show up in
so many different ways.
We've explored with a number ofthem.
Um, we have what?
I know my favorite and it mightbe yours, but I'm gonna have you
go first.
I already know.
I already know what
your favorite
(18:00):
is.
You know my favorite.
Okay, fine.
Can I go first then?
Yeah, of course you can.
So, it is fucking Truth or Dare.
The most basic level ground islike every child that we're
speaking to right now playedTruth or Dare.
Why can you not then turn thatgame Into your relationship and
play it with your partner tobuild up conversations.
(18:22):
You've never had, there was onedare that you had the other day
that it was like, show me yourtitties in a non conventional
way.
Right.
And so it was just a way to havea dare that was not,
you're reducing me down, Carrie,
you like my titties.
I'm sorry.
Should I feel bad?
Well, my ass either show
me your titties and we're allgood.
(18:44):
After we're talking with the whole doctorate
conversation,
having said that, having saidthat, I mean, you're not wrong.
But that's the thing.
Like truth or dare, we all knowhow to play the game and we do
it through text.
Yeah.
And there we
actually don't play it inperson.
We make it a point not,
that's so weird for me at this point because we just,
(19:06):
we've done it so much in a wayto interact when we're not
around.
Yeah.
That when we're not around, I'mlike, don't you dare ask me
that, that question which you,you're open and I love that
about you because I'm temp.
I'm most times the one likeholding back.
Yeah.
Where you're not.
And I love that.
No, I, I've,
I've made a promise myself.
You've told that
about anything.
I made a promise myself that ifyou ask me a question, I'm just
(19:28):
gonna tell you the.
Most truthful thing in my heartat that moment.
And then how you respond to it.
We can deal with it.
We can work through it.
And I think that I love the, um, game of truth or dare
because you are then decidingwhat you're going to ask.
You're not stuck in a situationwhere you're going to ask
something that makes you feeluncomfortable or put you out of
(19:50):
your comfort.
You're not on an
app.
That's being like, ask yourpartner.
Yeah, you do get like the choice and it's fine to get
ideas from different sources,but ultimately.
Ask the question you want toask.
We have played truth or dare for months at this point.
And so when there are timeswhere I'm like, I don't have a
question and I will go to likechat GBT and I'm like, what is a
(20:12):
question that I can ask mypartner that could open us up
into a level of communication orconversation moving forward?
And if you ever got a truthquestion that was just like out
of the fucking blue,
that was as much,
but at the same time, like I'm researching it because I'm
passionate about us and I'mpassionate about like our game
(20:33):
that I, I, it's made me.
Focus on learning more andfiguring out how I want to ask
things.
Well, I'm glad that you've donethat.
I'm glad I'm playing truth ordare with AI.
No, I'm fucking with you.
I've, I've enjoyed it.
We've had a, we've had a lot offun with doing this kind of
and I've told you shit that I've never told anybody
through this game.
(20:53):
I mean, I hope, I hope we'rethere
because it's just so private that it's literally just
you and your partner.
And I don't even know when thetruth or game started, but like.
Truth or dare.
I'm sorry.
Oh, we've been playing that foryears.
We didn't
have, even though I know thatone of your favorite things to
do is even whenever we're like,uh, started to like, if we open
(21:14):
up a little bit, therelationship and we're talking
with other people, as I rememberhaving somebody, uh, it was a
long time ago and it was on likea, an open dating app and it was
like me and this person talked,it was like, Oh, I'm speaking
with your wife right now playingtruth or dare.
I was like, of course you are.
That is my number one, like that's
your go to to get to knowsomebody too.
Cause it's
so easy.
(21:35):
And again, you are in control ofthat game, like you're playing
truth or dare with someonethat's great, but you're the
person in control to make thatask.
Yes.
And I love it.
It just opens up a lot ofimmediate conversation or
openness that every relationshipneeds.
It doesn't matter if you're twoweeks in, it doesn't matter for
20 years in.
It's just a level of opencommunication that people need.
(21:57):
It's, it's fun.
Now, having said that, it canalso bring up a little bit of
discomfort in people.
So one of, one of the thingsthat we, we greatly understand,
one of the things that weunderstand is that some of you
are thinking right now, like,well, if I play truth or dare
and I'm asked the truth, I'mkind of afraid to say what the
(22:20):
truth is.
I, if my partner asked me aboutsome deep fantasies or they
asked me about like some of mysexual bucket list goals or they
asked me something that couldhave an explicit answer that I
don't know if they'recomfortable with, do I tell them
what that is or do I refrainfrom it?
Yeah.
So the, my response to that isalways is what level of trust
(22:42):
have you built in therelationship?
Do you.
Is this something in the past?
Like go over your pastconversations.
Is this something that yourpartner has traditionally
responded to non judgmentallyand positively, or are they
typically respond to this kindof stuff with heavy emotional
outbursts, maybe an anger orshaming you or at this
(23:03):
point, you are only going.
To know how your partner isgoing to respond.
You best guess how your partneris going to respond.
I think we talked about likeanother game you can play that
like allows you to put in level
fantasy roulette.
Yeah, exactly.
I think this, this might be oneof my favorite games.
So essentially, instead ofsaying, let me ask you a
(23:26):
question.
Then you answer explicitly inthe deepest level.
You can, what you do is you bothspend time writing out
fantasies.
Or you spend time writing outwhatever act it may be.
It didn't have to be fantasy.
It could be answers toquestions, but you write them
out in order of explicitness.
So the basic ones you couldlabel as green, the ones that
(23:46):
are getting a bit dicey label asyellow.
And then ones that are like, Idon't know how they would react
to me telling them this label isred.
Uh, whenever you're playing thegame, you are each drawing a
fantasy.
Or an, an act, whatever it maybe.
And you have the choice on whichpile you draw from.
What is this going to do is it'sgoing to shift liability from
(24:09):
the person that wrote it down tothe person that's drawing it.
So if I'm sitting back, I'mputting myself at the risk of
hearing something that mightmake me uncomfortable.
So as, instead of being like,okay, just tell me what it is.
And then having a, a pretty coreemotional reaction to it, I can
actually go.
All right.
I think I'm going to play so Ican hear something pretty
intense.
Let's go with a red.
(24:31):
But I love that because you're then in charge.
Yeah.
You get to say, like you said, what am I looking to
receive at this moment?
Yeah.
And, and sometimes truth or darecan be tricky because maybe
you're going to give someonetruth and it's truth that they
maybe didn't want to receivejust yet.
And so I love the concept ofyour game because it gives them
like stages.
(24:51):
like ready to repeat, which islike the ultimate level of
consent in my opinion.
I'm not
going to lie.
If it wasn't, you're putting the
power in and the other person'shands.
Yeah.
If it wasn't you, me asking some of these truth or
dark questions, I would haveprefaced it with like a consent.
Yeah.
I don't feel like at this point, just questions I need to
(25:13):
ask consent for because we'vebeen together for 15 years, but.
Again, the game that you'retalking about, it kind of
removes that level of discomfortto say like, maybe I'm not ready
for like the red category.
I want to stick to this.
I'm going to stick, I'm going to
stick away from that.
And I may decide I am ready forthat.
And I'm going to go ahead andpull one of these.
Maybe I've had two shots of tequila and I'm ready for the
(25:36):
red, like bring on the red, youknow, but, but the point of all
of this, but tequila too, butlike.
The whole point of this is togive you a safe space.
Maybe you can't sit down andjust have a conversation with
your partner.
Maybe y'all don't align in thatway.
(25:57):
And that's fine because we'vetalked in the past about like
relationship, uh, check ins andmaybe that's not something that.
Every party can sit down andcomfortably do.
And again, that's fine.
So maybe you can utilize a gamelike truth or dare, or do we
have the roulette?
What, what, what is the game ofthe fantasy roulette that you
(26:17):
can sit down and like place outwhat you're willing to then
discuss?
Yeah.
I mean, we've, we've beenthrough a lot of different
games, a lot of different ones.
Uh, I've had people ask before,well, why do you feel the need
to play through games and do allthis kind of stuff?
And I want to reiterate thatit's, it's not that it's a need.
(26:39):
It's, it's a one, the, both ofus have this very deep desire to
continue to grow a relationship,um, emotionally, spiritually.
Sexually across all spectrums
physically.
I mean, even thinking about likeour workouts together, you know,
like we very much focus on.
How can we be together in thesemoments and better each other
(27:01):
through these moments?
Because again, at the end of theday, like it's just us and
that's what I want.
I want to continue down my pathwith you.
I don't want to continue down mypath through this other source,
but that doesn't mean that ourpath is like the most exciting
forever.
Our past can be fucking boringthese games in these situations
(27:22):
that we're bringing up are justways to like, enhance that.
Yes, they are.
So again, it's not a need thatwe participate in this stuff.
It's us consistently.
Finding ways to enhance therelationship.
We both put value into that inthe same way that if you were in
a career or anything else,you're constantly trying to
(27:43):
better yourself.
A relationship is no reason tostagnate yourself for the sake
of anything.
I continue to grow.
That's why we always preach oncontinuous dating.
Why we always preach oncontinuous, uh, opening up of,
of every aspect of yourrelationship.
Look,
like having those relationship check ins, figuring
out what your goals can change,sitting down and figuring out
(28:06):
like, what is the next fiveyears for y'all?
Because at the end of the day,hopefully you have each other
and that, and that sometimes allyou have, especially like us,
our kids are middle aged, right?
Our kids are like middle agedteenagers.
Yeah, we
got teenagers.
We got teenagers.
We are so close to, to, to thelike aspect of it just being you
and I.
(28:26):
To freedom?
Freedom.
Yes.
I love my kids, but God damn it.
But that's the thing is like, what's going to happen
when our 11 year old is out thedoor and it is just, and we hear
that we're doing this 11 yearsfrom now trying to figure each
other out.
We hear that with,
with people being like, Oh, wehave, we're empty nesters
(28:48):
and
we are, our kids are now gone.
Well, what do we do now?
It's
just us.
I collect that.
I can't wait for it to be justus.
But think about those people that have not sat down
and evaluated their relationshipand figuring out where they
stand.
They've had distractions thisentire time.
It feels like they're startingfrom scratch.
The
unfortunate side is that a lotof people that do have, they get
in a relationship and havechildren and all that, the
(29:10):
children as they grow up tend tobe a distraction from the actual
issues in the relationship.
And so they will dissociate fromtheir relationship by putting
their efforts and energy intotheir children.
And then what happens?
Then once
the kids are adults, why do youthink we see people that are
like, Oh, we've been togetherfor 25 years and now we're
divorced?
(29:30):
If you look at the commonalityof something like that
happening, it increases overtime.
More modernly, whenever we lookat married couples, we see it
more and more often.
Because I feel like,subjectively, I didn't see that
a lot when I was younger.
Um, and subjectively as anadult, I see it a lot more often
of people saying, well, I have,you know, we have kids, they're
(29:50):
full grown and now boom, we'regetting divorced.
Cause
I mean, I, the, one of my youngest memories is my
grandmother and my grandfatherseparating and they separated
because there were no more kidsin the house.
There was no more, there was noreason for them to stay together
anymore.
And so the second that thathappened, separated.
(30:11):
So how do you prevent that fromhappening?
How do you grow yourrelationship?
Like you create strongfoundation and that foundation
like can I speak for a second asa fucking non christian?
because I I'm gonna offend somepeople and I'm okay with that I
can't stand the fact that youhave these people that you have
(30:31):
all these groups because I'veseen a number of them that are
like, well, what we do is wehave this marriage group at
church and we come in there andwe talk about how you're doing
it for God and you're doing itfor the Lord.
And if you alone, you put thatfirst and you're going to be
good in your relationship.
And to that, I say that that isa wrong thing to do.
I don't agree with that.
I think that you're putting yourreliance on divinity in order to
(30:53):
save.
The negative emotions you haveto yourself, it allows you to
shift liability and blame ontosomething that's not part of
your core relationship.
Instead, I would encouragepeople to lay the foundations
early on, get into therelationship earlier, build your
foundation by increasing yourintimacy, your trust with each
other, your openness with eachother, and be able to be your
(31:14):
true, authentic selves, sustainyour own identity, avoid too
much codependency, and build afucking relationship that looks
amazing down the line.
Instead of blaming it on otherthings or relying on stuff that
is outside the relationship tosave you.
Yeah, I mean, my whole point with all this and then
bringing up our kids being like,you know, Nestor's and all that
(31:34):
is I don't want that to happen.
I want to work on it now.
I want to build our relationshipso much.
Because we get it.
We've been through it.
We've been through the youngerkids, the stress, how hard it is
to connect when they're littleand how much attention that they
need, but there comes a pointwhere we need to figure out
what's best for the both of usand what's best for us in our
relationship.
Yeah,
(31:54):
and I think that's why we invented the penis showing game
That's why we focus so much onbeing together because we we
didn't
invent the
penis Relationship and we found ways to play with it
around it.
Of course like I would hate hatefor us to Get to a point where
our kids are out of the houseand now you and I are just
(32:17):
looking at each other like, whatthe fuck I would rather be the
couple that's like, Oh, I can'twait to you, you, I see you and
I can't wait until these kids,but that's not always the case.
It really isn't.
And so we do think that, like,creating.
Um, games with one another anddoing things to like continue to
build that intimacy and tocontinue to build that
(32:38):
relationship with one anothertruth or dare is a, is a minimal
way that you can do that.
Yeah.
It's a small one, but it'seffective.
It's super effective.
We have had such deepconversations around our
simplistic games of truth anddare
Well, it's, it's one of thosethings where you have like this,
this little injection to dealto, to deal with, uh, of a
topic.
So in a normal conversation youmight be sitting back going
(33:00):
like, what do we talk about now?
Every relationship with beinglong enough, you start to run
out of things to talk about,especially if you find
yourselves as melding into oneidentity and you don't maintain
your own separate identities.
All of a sudden you findyourselves being like, we've run
out of things to talk
about.
It's got to be so boring.
Yeah.
But with doing stuff like this,it allows you to explore each
(33:24):
other on an emotional level andon a very sexual level too.
If you, if you want it to gothat way, we prefer our, like a
lot of our stuff is sexual andwe're a fucking sex podcast,
right?
So a lot of the things that wedo has a core principle of sex.
It holds a very high value.
So a lot of our truth or darestuff, a lot of our games that
we play, it revolves aroundthat.
(33:44):
Describe this fantasy to me,like describe this act to me.
How would you want to do that?
Uh, and also leads toconversations because we'll do
say a truth, a truth one, uh,where it's where we're talking
to each other about somethingand it leads to a very deep
conversation.
Yeah.
But, but that's the whole point of it is like, it can lead
you just because you play thegame doesn't mean it's going to
(34:05):
lead to something likeextravagance.
You can still just play the gameand it be.
Like you said, lead to somethingthat's like more in depth.
We've had very intenseconversations after we played
the game, but what it did wasallow that like door to open.
There have been things that I'veadmitted to you just through the
game that I haven't admitted toyou through our relationship
(34:25):
check ins, you know?
I know you're always funny.
Cause you're like, we're notplaying this in person.
Get out of here.
No, I will go away.
No, text me and ask me and thendisappear for five minutes.
But the thing is, is like,that's 1 of the things I love
about us most is because we'renever trying to not.
(34:45):
Advancing in our relationship.
We're always trying that.
We're always looking to betterwhatever we can.
I think that, uh, one, one moregame that you can probably play
together, which you don't, itdoesn't have to be as much of a
game, but there should be anexperience, um, is heavily
evidence based and is one thatreally is shown to provide a lot
(35:06):
for, for relationships, forcouples, for, for sexual
partners has been pleasuremapping.
Yeah, we talked about this at lunch.
Yes.
Talk about it.
I love that.
So essentially what you can dois you, you take turns.
It can be a timer if you wantto, or as long as you want it to
last.
One partner lies down while theother one uses some sort of
sensory object.
This might be your hands.
It could be ice cubes.
(35:27):
It could be a feather.
It could be candle wax,anything.
Uh, but what you do is you gohead to toe, toe to head,
wherever you want to start offthe, on the body and you go a
little small.
Zone by zone, region by region,figuring out where on your
partner are their pleasurezones.
And every time that you reachone, you can mark it down, do
(35:47):
this here.
Um, or if they don't like it,they have aversion to it.
Say, Hey, avoid this area.
Somebody might be like, Hey,don't touch my left thigh.
Right?
I hate this.
Doesn't matter why they hate it,but if it's something that they
don't enjoy, you can write thatdown and you continue on and on
and on.
What's this is going to do isit's going to prevent you from
falling into the routine routineof being like, all right, I'm
(36:09):
going to be physical with mypartner.
All right, lay down.
We're going to go from touchingand kissing to oral to sex to
finish.
So I know
she likes lips.
I know she likes necks a little,uh, you know, nipple tweaks and
then, and
that's it,
and then we're done.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so it allows you to exploremore.
And so you can map out, each ofthe partners can do that and
then help save the map.
(36:30):
Yeah.
Sew it away somewhere.
So then before the next timethat you're going to be
physical, if y'all have beendirty texting all day and we
have a date night or somethinglike that's going on, you're
like, we're probably going to bepretty intense this evening.
Pull it back out and be like,Oh, that's right.
I forgot.
They enjoy this sensation inthis area.
Let's explore with that So nowyou're not having all this work
of starting something and yourpartner's in their head going
(36:53):
this.
This is, this doesn't reallyfeel good.
I'll pretend it feels good.
I might moan a little bit andmove around, but in reality, I'm
kind of going, no, it's not forme.
So do that with each other.
Again, it's a good way to buildintimacy.
Plus the time that you're doing,it allows you to actually
concentrate.
My suggestion is don't make itsuper sexual.
Dar don't, don't have it evolveinto.
(37:16):
Intercourse.
Yeah, no one's planning to come tonight.
We're just looking at eachother's zones and what we like
to feel.
If it leads
there, I mean, that's fine.
Yeah, that's fine.
However, don't, don't enter inwith the intention.
Yeah, it doesn't have to.
And I think that's important to say is like any
sexual, um, act that you do withyour partner doesn't necessarily
need to Need to lead tointercourse, but it does remind
(37:36):
me that there was something thatI dared you the other day,
which one,
when I asked you to try to pleasure me or touch me for the
first time, as if you have nevertouched me before.
This is, I know that we talkabout relationship check ins,
but you need to have physicalcheck ins.
You need to have ways thatyou're like, Hey, um, I'm going
(37:57):
to lay here and I'm going to letyou explore me and, and, and I,
and I told Casey to explore mein a way that he's never
explored me before, because Iwas like, and not feeling weird
for trying something that he'snever tried.
It was very
much like, Hey, pretend thatyou've never done this before.
And I'm a brand new body.
And let's go from
there.
Just try from there.
(38:18):
But hope was again, if you'regoing to have emotional, you
need to have physical check ins.
And that means sitting down andasking your partner to explore
or touch in a way that you'venever been touched before, or in
a way that he, or they havenever touched you before.
So then you can again, start tolike, maybe respond in a new
(38:40):
way.
Or because I feel like we get,get kind of stuck on like what
we experienced in the past andOh yeah, that felt good.
Oh, it felt good.
Oh, it felt good.
But now I'm ignoring other partsof my body.
Yes, we, we are typicallycreatures of habit.
We know what feels good.
So then we go immediately anddoing the things that we've
known before, doing the thingsthat are pleasure or partner
before, because we're like,that's a sure thing and I don't
(39:01):
have to worry about it becomingsomething else.
That's all good ideas.
All good ideas.
It is.
All right.
All right.
Well, um, we've given you abunch of information today.
We don't want to overdo it.
So for now, go explore some ofthe things.
If you want to drop us a line,go on our Instagram, naughty by
(39:23):
nature, K N O T T Y dot B I dotN A T U R E to find us.
You can drop us a line and askus your questions.
Bring us in.
Let us like, let us help youout.
We have little entire shows around questions.
So those are some
of our favorite whenever peoplewrite in
shows, please ask us questions.
Those are my favorite.
We
do enjoy answering questions.
So for yet another episode, I amyour host.
(39:45):
One of them, Dr.
Casey Sanders,
and I'm just Carrie.
And we'll see you next time.
Welcome to naughty by nature.
Kari (00:01):
Hey, I
know we are your hosts.
I'm Dr.
Casey Sanders and
I'm Carrie Sanders.
I know.
So I, I'm going to go ahead andsay, I have a little bit of
imposter syndrome because sobeing a, like for everybody that
knows that listens to the show,they know I'm a chiropractor.
They do know.
So each time I
say like, uh, Dr.
Casey Sanders, I don't ever wantto give the impression that I'm
like a, uh,
(00:23):
You're a doctor.
Yes.
No, you're a doctor.
There's no elevation to it.
You're a fucking doctor.
I lied.
The fact like I went, I went tothe eight years of school, you
got the degrees.
Yep.
I was there for it.
Exams.
Yeah.
Did all the very, very
chaos.
Remember all that
did all the hard shit and youaccomplished all of it.
But sometimes the impostersyndrome sets in and being like,
you really shouldn't let that happen to you.
(00:44):
You really shouldn't.
You're a fucking doctor.
You've worked for it.
I hear you.
I really do.
But at the same time, like.
No, because of how much work youhad to put in, it wasn't any
different for you to put in thesame amount of work as like an
MD.
It was the same thing, but maybedifferent like conversations,
right?
Yeah.
Pharmacological studies, wherey'all
went into like neurology,
(01:06):
right?
Yes.
Typically MDs go more of apharmacological pharmacology.
I like that word.
I like that word.
They, they study pharmacologymore and we study.
More on a different end,
but that makes sense though, right?
Like you, a chiropractor versusan MD really at the base of it,
you're receiving the same levelof information.
(01:26):
Yeah, we have to know the humanbody.
Yeah.
So if you, yeah, we strip itdown to how well do you know the
human body?
How well can you?
Uh, describe systems within thehuman body.
It's very, very, very similar.
So anyway, and
it makes sense.
Anyways, it makes sense for thesplit to be pharmacy,
pharmaceuticals for them.
And then exactly.
Neurology versus
natural healing.
(01:46):
So anyway, I'm Dr.
Casey
Sanders and I'm still just his wife, Carrie Sanders.
Anyways, I'm still just hiswife, Carrie Sanders.
Yeah.
What else am I supposed
to say?
I feel like you're minimizingyourself.
You're a fucking doctor.
Of course, I'm going to minimizemyself.
I'm a hair, I'm a hair stylist.
(02:07):
I want a
therapist that's listening todive into that.
Please do.
Yeah.
Like
you're justifying minimizingyourself.
I always justifying minimizing myself every day.
That's
just, I do all this, you do abunch of cool shit.
You're successful in yourcareer.
You do amazing things.
And then you refer to yourselfas just his wife.
(02:29):
I'm going to take away somebucks.
Don't that's not fair.
We didn't agree to thatbeforehand and we'll, we'll get
into that later with what weneed, but
anyways, rude.
So, um, the biggest discussionthat we have today is going to
be focusing around, like.
(02:49):
Being playful with your partner,how to play with your partner,
how to like, okay.
Yeah, I might as well How tolike
gamify.
Yes.
I love, we wanna
gamify the relationship.
Can you like, break down what gamify means?
Yeah.
First
it's, yeah, of course.
Okay.
Oh, it means turning into agame.
That's it.
That, no, that's it.
That's fucking it.
Okay.
Anyways, turn your relationshipinto a game.
(03:12):
It it, but it means
creating an environment in yourrelationship where things do
feel.
Like a game, like playful.
I, for myself, I love videogames.
I know that you love videogames, video game, not as much
of an extent, but I know thatyou enjoy sitting down and
playing games with us andplaying games with the kids and
me.
I
think that I could dive in deeply into video games, but I
(03:35):
almost have to refrain myself.
Well, you were younger.
I was a huge gamer when I was akid.
Um, I love final fantasy.
I love the stories.
I love that type of, it was likean RPG.
I was so into the whole conceptaround it.
You were big on the turn
based too, right?
Like, so Final Fantasy beinglike, you go, I go, you go, I
(03:57):
go.
But that was really, well, it was just introduced to me.
I didn't really know gamingoutside of like RPGs, but you
liked huge gamer.
You liked a lot of the, thestory driven like the cinematics
and the cut scenes and the, Allof that, right?
Can you imagine a video game, but with like the smut
(04:18):
book concept?
Yeah, they have those.
They didn't do very successful.
Well, no, I actually have no fucking clue, but I'm not
surprised that it didn't dowell, but damn, I'd be so into
it.
Oh
no, I'm certain that there's alarge market for it.
It's just, they don't know howto,
they don't
know how to make it withoutgetting in trouble.
That's fair.
They don't know how to make agood like romanticy.
(04:40):
Game,
Put my smut books into a video game.
Oh, how would that look like?
God, how would that look for youthough?
I don't
know.
I play so hard though.
I have no idea what that wouldlook.
Well, I mean, is it somethingwhere you play through the game
and then sex scenes happen orare you playing, are you like
playing through the sex scene?
I
don't think I'd want to play.
No, I'm here to watch.
(05:00):
It'd be like Parappa the rapper,but like, was you remember that
game?
No.
Parappa the rapper, they woulddo dance moves and you'd have to
in time.
Press the corresponding button.
So it would have like, sayyou're playing on PlayStation.
It would be like circle, squareX and triangle.
Right.
And it would be tempo driven.
So like guitar hero or anythingelse you're having to keep in
time with it.
(05:20):
So would it be like that for asex scene or it's like thrust
thrust thrust thrust
maybe X Y triangle, right?
Whatever.
But like
wear out so many controllers,
I would write, I would rather earn it.
Like I beat this boss.
And after this boss.
Boom.
Big sex scene.
(05:40):
I'm just going to sit back andwatch.
That's what I would want.
Okay.
So this, the sex scene would belike a reward.
Yeah.
Like I don't want to work forit.
Casey, you have all people.
No, I don't want to work for it.
You do or don't want to work.
Don't.
I just want to sit back and observe it, you know?
Right.
So a non interactive sex scenewhere you play through, you get
an achievement.
(06:01):
Now I get to sit back and watchmy porn.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
That would be good for me as areward based.
Girl.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
So if we were going to look atthat, then what would, what
would a scene like that looklike?
Cause I mean, think about theromance series that we've gone
through so far.
Are we talking like it would belike a, a three dicks mermaid?
No, I think actually I think it would be more, um, what
(06:24):
do they call it when they, um,ship ship things, right?
So I would want a scene where.
Whatever I did in the past toearn said shipping, I would want
it to happen on screen.
So you can have this big RPGgame, open world, where you can
craft relationships withdifferent people.
(06:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Because they have somethingsimilar, but it's not explicit
sex scene.
So if you take like newer gameslike Baldur's Gate, which is
essentially D& D on the screen,right?
You can craft relationships withmost of the characters in the
game.
And whenever you, whenever youactually get to where there's a
romantic scene, it starts andthen they kind of like cut back.
Like you'll have like a toplesscharacter or something, or
(07:07):
you'll see like a penis, butthere's no explicit sex scenes
that cut away.
Can you see a penis?
Sure.
Do you have a
topless and you have a penis?
Sure.
Okay.
Yeah.
Why not?
Okay.
Go ahead.
Do you not know about mycharacter?
Willow on Baldur's Gate 3?
I do
know about Willow.
Can you describe Willow for us?
You want me to?
I kind of want you to at this point.
Well, Willow is my, my transbarbarian that I made.
(07:31):
Trans barbarian?
Yeah.
What made you think that?
Trans and then barbarian
because I love
the concept.
I honestly,
I would, I would want to be a barbarian.
I feel like I'm a barbarian, butI'm not a femme barbarian.
So I go ahead.
No, uh, my, my, the barbarianthat I created her, what, like a
year ago or so me and my sonwere playing and we were
(07:52):
crafting new characters.
I created a barbarian that was,uh, I mean, as a trans woman,
very, very masculine.
Um,
Yep.
Very mask presenting.
Yeah.
With a penis.
Yeah.
I mean, I love her.
She's, she's amazing.
She kills so many fuckingpeople.
Got it like this flaming swordat the beginning and did all
(08:13):
sorts of stuff.
Um, I wish I could go furtherinto it right now, but I'm kind
of like without seeing herpresented on screen that you're
not going to really know aboutWillow, but Willow's got a happy
backstory.
She's done amazing thingsthroughout her time.
So how would you feel if I.
You know, 10 years into ourrelationship came to you and
said, I would like to be maskedpresenting from here on out.
(08:39):
I mean, let's, let's go with it.
Let's, let's see what happens.
I know that there's been a lotof like, we've seen the
discussion a lot.
Um, and we've talked about thisbook a number of times, but, um,
uh, I'm learning shame.
Uh, Devin price's book, uh, whois a, who is a trans woman.
And whenever.
I'm sorry, a trans man.
And whenever he went through histransition process, he had been
(09:00):
in a relationship and that itruined his relationship.
Yeah.
Uh, he doesn't hold, now doesn'thold resentment to the partner
because of what that allentails, but it does bring up
important questions of like whatyou're asking.
How would you feel if I were tocompletely alter myself?
Because I tend to be or even
finding myself to be my true form, but I maybe didn't
(09:20):
disclose that
true form.
Yeah.
But I didn't, I didn't disclosethat to you.
Uh, I.
I would support you andeverything.
I don't know how that would lookin a romantic relationship
moving forward, but I know thatI would support you in it.
I'd want you to be your happiestself
because at the end of the day, you definitely find
yourself as like straight male.
(09:42):
Um, I, I consider myself acisgender male.
Um, I, I, I think I'm straight.
That's been, but I alsounderstand that sexuality is
fluid.
I've found myself attracted tomen in the past.
Um, sexual attraction hasn'tgone further than a lot of the
surface.
Yeah.
And I, I've.
(10:04):
I've wanted to explore more ofthat, but I haven't been super
sure how to do that because I,
because
you asked me the other day,you're like, Hey, have you ever
watched do you ever watch, like,uh, do you ever watch male, like
male on male porn?
And like, how do you feel aboutthat?
And I, my response, I believewas like, Oh, I kind of tried to
see if it, just see if itaroused me at all.
(10:26):
And I, I didn't have much of anarousal for it, but my response
to you was.
It was something about seeinglike a masculine face temp to
take on a feminine form that Iwas like, this, I don't know if
it was a confusion.
I don't know if it was justwhat, but it, it didn't.
Like take me along a road ofarousal.
(10:47):
Now, of course, let's keep inmind that we're watching
pornography, right?
It's not real life, but it's thesame thing of watching Hollywood
on screen.
Right.
So I I've made an attempt tokind of explore it a little bit,
but it's hasn't gone any furtherthan that.
I'm interested in, in exploringthat a little bit more and never
know what I might find.
I think that one of my.
Favorite things that I've seen,what came from, um, Dr.
(11:08):
Joe court, whenever he talksabout, uh, sexual fluidity and
how your sexuality can be fluidthroughout your entire lifetime.
So that doesn't mean that yourealize that you're homosexual
or bisexual whenever you'reyounger, and then that's the way
you are for your entire life.
You can actually dip in and outof various ways as you go
through things.
So it's been an interest.
(11:29):
I love that because it doesn't make it so like
concrete.
This is how I feel, so this mustmean how I feel for the rest of
my life.
Yeah.
This is me and this will alwaysbe me.
Yeah.
And that's not really how itworks.
Like especially someone, I thinkit's more
fun to explore.
Yeah.
Especially as someone speakingfrom a, like a bisexual mindset.
Like I used to think like, areyou really bisexual because
(11:51):
you've mostly been with men, butit ebbs and flows.
Yeah.
There are times in my life that I'm like, God, I, I really
wanna be with a woman.
Mm-hmm
And, and then there are times where kind of, I think
you used the, what was the wordyou used the other day?
Uh, crave.
Yeah, I as you have
a desire to crave.
Yes.
And I and I am in my cravephase, I will admit.
But yeah, like there are timesand it doesn't make me feel less
(12:13):
bisexual because there's a pointwhere I'm not really craving
that.
Um, but that was something thateven I had to kind of like
figure out knowing that I wasbisexual way early on in my
life, like that was interestingfor me to understand.
And I love that the concept oflike, it ebbs and flows.
It's not a straight line.
You can find times where you'relike, really into in times where
(12:35):
it kind of like dies down alittle bit.
I
think it brings up aninteresting point that we try to
quote, normalize.
Things or we try to, I
hate normal, I hate normalizing.
We,
we try to solidify things.
Yeah.
We, we try to label somethingand then say, this thing never
changes.
And for whatever reason, we dothat with, with our, our, our
fellow man, our humans thatexist.
(12:57):
And we try to say, here's whatyou are.
Here's your label.
It doesn't change whenever everyshred of evidence points to the
exact opposite, that everythingis fluid, literally everything
that we know on some level,
your diet.
As, as you were like sexualorientation, right?
(13:19):
Like there are times where I'mlike, I'm super into one aspect
of this in my life.
And then I'm going to decrease alittle bit.
Like for someone that'slistening to our show and you
have a very straight sexualorientation.
That's great, but think about itbeing more fluid, and that's why
I brought up a diet, right?
Like, think about the times thatyou're really, really into it,
(13:40):
and there's times that it kindof like falls off a little bit.
It doesn't make you not a,you're not an unhealthy person,
it just means that you findtimes to like really like dive
into it in times that you'relike, eh, and maybe I might find
myself a little bit morerelaxed.
If you think about that as yoursexuality, It really opens up
the scope of allowing you tounderstand that there are ebbs
(14:01):
and flows in your own sexualitythat can be altered and changed
and fluid.
So really,
I kind of like the way that yousaid that.
I can be smart too sometimes.
So what kind of brought a lot ofthis up was the discussion of
our podcast today, because
we had an idea and they werelike, hold on, let's talk about
(14:22):
our sexuality.
We kind of went a little bit, but it, I promise you,
it'll still kind of dial back,but like.
Understand that Casey and I havebeen in a relationship for
almost like 15 years.
We're 15 years.
This
is, this is year 15 for everyonethat we've said 15 years for the
last two years.
Let's not worry about that.
Anyways, we're, we are now it's 15 years.
(14:44):
And our relationship.
Again, just as a fucking diet,it ebbs and flows.
We find times where we're likereally peaked out and we're,
we're really fucking for eachother, and we find times that
we're like maybe a little bit ata lull,
a little bit at a low.
We've been at some heavy highsand some low lows.
Yeah.
But the point is of what our, our show is today is like
maybe you're finding yourself asa at, at a low.
(15:07):
Here are ways to like.
Increase that.
Get away from it.
Remove yourself from the lowthat you find yourself.
I'm going
to, I'm going to counter that alittle bit was saying you should
do this whether you're at a highor a low.
What we're talking about today,
but if you're at a low promise you this is gonna like,
I would, I would hope that it'ship to do this thing.
(15:28):
If you find yourself at a lowand you start attempting to do
this and you're like, this isn'tworking, why isn't working?
That's okay.
Yes, of course.
It's one thing to
try.
It's one thing.
Yeah.
We're,
we're not here to tell you this is what's going to fix
things.
We're saying, try this and seewhat works for you.
podcast about creating a, agame, gamifying your
(15:51):
relationship.
And the first question we wantto, we want to answer is, well,
why the hell would I want to dothat in the first place?
Um, big one is going to bebecause it's going to increase
your intimacy.
One of our goals here, as youknow, is that we want to bring
couples closer together.
We want to bring anyrelationship style closer
together and and build that.
So one of the ways that we dothat is by increasing your
(16:13):
intimacy by playing games witheach other.
at a time whenever you may notrecognize or know how to do
that.
That's what we're here for.
We're here to give you the waysin which you can do
that.
The other next one is going tobe to build morale in the
relationship.
If you've ever seen anything onthe subject of morality,
(16:34):
building morale, you
understand how important it isfor people to feel a sense of
community, a sense oftogetherness in order to help
boost themselves and each otherto the next level.
What was that damn movie that we used to watch?
That was not the movie I'mthinking of.
That's a different level ofmorale.
Respectful, but different.
No, what was the, the, uh, therewere servers and they, they
(16:56):
invented it, like, the, the Oh!Waiting! Waiting! Yeah! Right?
Early,
earlier Ryan Reynolds.
Very early Ryan Reynolds.
But, it was a, it was a, a movieabout building morale within the
company that you work for.
And so they created this Penisshowing game.
And within this, it wasliterally just a way for the
employees to work together, tohave a good time, to build
(17:19):
morale, because morale built upthe restaurant was built it up.
The customers was built up themoney.
They realized that on the grand
scope of things that they wereemployees in a job and that that
didn't always appeal toeverybody.
So having a way in which you canconnect with each other.
Allowed them to feel moretogether, allowed them to feel
more closeness in terms offriendship.
(17:40):
So
then, like, how do you do that in your relationship?
How do you build morale?
What is the penis showing gamefor your relationship?
Exactly.
And the penis showing game inyour relationship can show up in
so many different ways.
We've explored with a number ofthem.
Um, we have what?
I know my favorite and it mightbe yours, but I'm gonna have you
go first.
I already know.
I already know what
your favorite
(18:00):
is.
You know my favorite.
Okay, fine.
Can I go first then?
Yeah, of course you can.
So, it is fucking Truth or Dare.
The most basic level ground islike every child that we're
speaking to right now playedTruth or Dare.
Why can you not then turn thatgame Into your relationship and
play it with your partner tobuild up conversations.
(18:22):
You've never had, there was onedare that you had the other day
that it was like, show me yourtitties in a non conventional
way.
Right.
And so it was just a way to havea dare that was not,
you're reducing me down, Carrie,
you like my titties.
I'm sorry.
Should I feel bad?
Well, my ass either show
me your titties and we're allgood.
(18:44):
After we're talking with the whole doctorate
conversation,
having said that, having saidthat, I mean, you're not wrong.
But that's the thing.
Like truth or dare, we all knowhow to play the game and we do
it through text.
Yeah.
And there we
actually don't play it inperson.
We make it a point not,
that's so weird for me at this point because we just,
(19:06):
we've done it so much in a wayto interact when we're not
around.
Yeah.
That when we're not around, I'mlike, don't you dare ask me
that, that question which you,you're open and I love that
about you because I'm temp.
I'm most times the one likeholding back.
Yeah.
Where you're not.
And I love that.
No, I, I've,
I've made a promise myself.
You've told that
about anything.
I made a promise myself that ifyou ask me a question, I'm just
(19:28):
gonna tell you the.
Most truthful thing in my heartat that moment.
And then how you respond to it.
We can deal with it.
We can work through it.
And I think that I love the, um, game of truth or dare
because you are then decidingwhat you're going to ask.
You're not stuck in a situationwhere you're going to ask
something that makes you feeluncomfortable or put you out of
(19:50):
your comfort.
You're not on an
app.
That's being like, ask yourpartner.
Yeah, you do get like the choice and it's fine to get
ideas from different sources,but ultimately.
Ask the question you want toask.
We have played truth or dare for months at this point.
And so when there are timeswhere I'm like, I don't have a
question and I will go to likechat GBT and I'm like, what is a
(20:12):
question that I can ask mypartner that could open us up
into a level of communication orconversation moving forward?
And if you ever got a truthquestion that was just like out
of the fucking blue,
that was as much,
but at the same time, like I'm researching it because I'm
passionate about us and I'mpassionate about like our game
(20:33):
that I, I, it's made me.
Focus on learning more andfiguring out how I want to ask
things.
Well, I'm glad that you've donethat.
I'm glad I'm playing truth ordare with AI.
No, I'm fucking with you.
I've, I've enjoyed it.
We've had a, we've had a lot offun with doing this kind of
and I've told you shit that I've never told anybody
through this game.
(20:53):
I mean, I hope, I hope we'rethere
because it's just so private that it's literally just
you and your partner.
And I don't even know when thetruth or game started, but like.
Truth or dare.
I'm sorry.
Oh, we've been playing that foryears.
We didn't
have, even though I know thatone of your favorite things to
do is even whenever we're like,uh, started to like, if we open
(21:14):
up a little bit, therelationship and we're talking
with other people, as I rememberhaving somebody, uh, it was a
long time ago and it was on likea, an open dating app and it was
like me and this person talked,it was like, Oh, I'm speaking
with your wife right now playingtruth or dare.
I was like, of course you are.
That is my number one, like that's
your go to to get to knowsomebody too.
Cause it's
so easy.
(21:35):
And again, you are in control ofthat game, like you're playing
truth or dare with someonethat's great, but you're the
person in control to make thatask.
Yes.
And I love it.
It just opens up a lot ofimmediate conversation or
openness that every relationshipneeds.
It doesn't matter if you're twoweeks in, it doesn't matter for
20 years in.
It's just a level of opencommunication that people need.
(21:57):
It's, it's fun.
Now, having said that, it canalso bring up a little bit of
discomfort in people.
So one of, one of the thingsthat we, we greatly understand,
one of the things that weunderstand is that some of you
are thinking right now, like,well, if I play truth or dare
and I'm asked the truth, I'mkind of afraid to say what the
(22:20):
truth is.
I, if my partner asked me aboutsome deep fantasies or they
asked me about like some of mysexual bucket list goals or they
asked me something that couldhave an explicit answer that I
don't know if they'recomfortable with, do I tell them
what that is or do I refrainfrom it?
Yeah.
So the, my response to that isalways is what level of trust
(22:42):
have you built in therelationship?
Do you.
Is this something in the past?
Like go over your pastconversations.
Is this something that yourpartner has traditionally
responded to non judgmentallyand positively, or are they
typically respond to this kindof stuff with heavy emotional
outbursts, maybe an anger orshaming you or at this
(23:03):
point, you are only going.
To know how your partner isgoing to respond.
You best guess how your partneris going to respond.
I think we talked about likeanother game you can play that
like allows you to put in level
fantasy roulette.
Yeah, exactly.
I think this, this might be oneof my favorite games.
So essentially, instead ofsaying, let me ask you a
(23:26):
question.
Then you answer explicitly inthe deepest level.
You can, what you do is you bothspend time writing out
fantasies.
Or you spend time writing outwhatever act it may be.
It didn't have to be fantasy.
It could be answers toquestions, but you write them
out in order of explicitness.
So the basic ones you couldlabel as green, the ones that
(23:46):
are getting a bit dicey label asyellow.
And then ones that are like, Idon't know how they would react
to me telling them this label isred.
Uh, whenever you're playing thegame, you are each drawing a
fantasy.
Or an, an act, whatever it maybe.
And you have the choice on whichpile you draw from.
What is this going to do is it'sgoing to shift liability from
(24:09):
the person that wrote it down tothe person that's drawing it.
So if I'm sitting back, I'mputting myself at the risk of
hearing something that mightmake me uncomfortable.
So as, instead of being like,okay, just tell me what it is.
And then having a, a pretty coreemotional reaction to it, I can
actually go.
All right.
I think I'm going to play so Ican hear something pretty
intense.
Let's go with a red.
(24:31):
But I love that because you're then in charge.
Yeah.
You get to say, like you said, what am I looking to
receive at this moment?
Yeah.
And, and sometimes truth or darecan be tricky because maybe
you're going to give someonetruth and it's truth that they
maybe didn't want to receivejust yet.
And so I love the concept ofyour game because it gives them
like stages.
(24:51):
like ready to repeat, which islike the ultimate level of
consent in my opinion.
I'm not
going to lie.
If it wasn't, you're putting the
power in and the other person'shands.
Yeah.
If it wasn't you, me asking some of these truth or
dark questions, I would haveprefaced it with like a consent.
Yeah.
I don't feel like at this point, just questions I need to
(25:13):
ask consent for because we'vebeen together for 15 years, but.
Again, the game that you'retalking about, it kind of
removes that level of discomfortto say like, maybe I'm not ready
for like the red category.
I want to stick to this.
I'm going to stick, I'm going to
stick away from that.
And I may decide I am ready forthat.
And I'm going to go ahead andpull one of these.
Maybe I've had two shots of tequila and I'm ready for the
(25:36):
red, like bring on the red, youknow, but, but the point of all
of this, but tequila too, butlike.
The whole point of this is togive you a safe space.
Maybe you can't sit down andjust have a conversation with
your partner.
Maybe y'all don't align in thatway.
(25:57):
And that's fine because we'vetalked in the past about like
relationship, uh, check ins andmaybe that's not something that.
Every party can sit down andcomfortably do.
And again, that's fine.
So maybe you can utilize a gamelike truth or dare, or do we
have the roulette?
What, what, what is the game ofthe fantasy roulette that you
(26:17):
can sit down and like place outwhat you're willing to then
discuss?
Yeah.
I mean, we've, we've beenthrough a lot of different
games, a lot of different ones.
Uh, I've had people ask before,well, why do you feel the need
to play through games and do allthis kind of stuff?
And I want to reiterate thatit's, it's not that it's a need.
(26:39):
It's, it's a one, the, both ofus have this very deep desire to
continue to grow a relationship,um, emotionally, spiritually.
Sexually across all spectrums
physically.
I mean, even thinking about likeour workouts together, you know,
like we very much focus on.
How can we be together in thesemoments and better each other
(27:01):
through these moments?
Because again, at the end of theday, like it's just us and
that's what I want.
I want to continue down my pathwith you.
I don't want to continue down mypath through this other source,
but that doesn't mean that ourpath is like the most exciting
forever.
Our past can be fucking boringthese games in these situations
(27:22):
that we're bringing up are justways to like, enhance that.
Yes, they are.
So again, it's not a need thatwe participate in this stuff.
It's us consistently.
Finding ways to enhance therelationship.
We both put value into that inthe same way that if you were in
a career or anything else,you're constantly trying to
(27:43):
better yourself.
A relationship is no reason tostagnate yourself for the sake
of anything.
I continue to grow.
That's why we always preach oncontinuous dating.
Why we always preach oncontinuous, uh, opening up of,
of every aspect of yourrelationship.
Look,
like having those relationship check ins, figuring
out what your goals can change,sitting down and figuring out
(28:06):
like, what is the next fiveyears for y'all?
Because at the end of the day,hopefully you have each other
and that, and that sometimes allyou have, especially like us,
our kids are middle aged, right?
Our kids are like middle agedteenagers.
Yeah, we
got teenagers.
We got teenagers.
We are so close to, to, to thelike aspect of it just being you
and I.
(28:26):
To freedom?
Freedom.
Yes.
I love my kids, but God damn it.
But that's the thing is like, what's going to happen
when our 11 year old is out thedoor and it is just, and we hear
that we're doing this 11 yearsfrom now trying to figure each
other out.
We hear that with,
with people being like, Oh, wehave, we're empty nesters
(28:48):
and
we are, our kids are now gone.
Well, what do we do now?
It's
just us.
I collect that.
I can't wait for it to be justus.
But think about those people that have not sat down
and evaluated their relationshipand figuring out where they
stand.
They've had distractions thisentire time.
It feels like they're startingfrom scratch.
The
unfortunate side is that a lotof people that do have, they get
in a relationship and havechildren and all that, the
(29:10):
children as they grow up tend tobe a distraction from the actual
issues in the relationship.
And so they will dissociate fromtheir relationship by putting
their efforts and energy intotheir children.
And then what happens?
Then once
the kids are adults, why do youthink we see people that are
like, Oh, we've been togetherfor 25 years and now we're
divorced?
(29:30):
If you look at the commonalityof something like that
happening, it increases overtime.
More modernly, whenever we lookat married couples, we see it
more and more often.
Because I feel like,subjectively, I didn't see that
a lot when I was younger.
Um, and subjectively as anadult, I see it a lot more often
of people saying, well, I have,you know, we have kids, they're
(29:50):
full grown and now boom, we'regetting divorced.
Cause
I mean, I, the, one of my youngest memories is my
grandmother and my grandfatherseparating and they separated
because there were no more kidsin the house.
There was no more, there was noreason for them to stay together
anymore.
And so the second that thathappened, separated.
(30:11):
So how do you prevent that fromhappening?
How do you grow yourrelationship?
Like you create strongfoundation and that foundation
like can I speak for a second asa fucking non christian?
because I I'm gonna offend somepeople and I'm okay with that I
can't stand the fact that youhave these people that you have
(30:31):
all these groups because I'veseen a number of them that are
like, well, what we do is wehave this marriage group at
church and we come in there andwe talk about how you're doing
it for God and you're doing itfor the Lord.
And if you alone, you put thatfirst and you're going to be
good in your relationship.
And to that, I say that that isa wrong thing to do.
I don't agree with that.
I think that you're putting yourreliance on divinity in order to
(30:53):
save.
The negative emotions you haveto yourself, it allows you to
shift liability and blame ontosomething that's not part of
your core relationship.
Instead, I would encouragepeople to lay the foundations
early on, get into therelationship earlier, build your
foundation by increasing yourintimacy, your trust with each
other, your openness with eachother, and be able to be your
(31:14):
true, authentic selves, sustainyour own identity, avoid too
much codependency, and build afucking relationship that looks
amazing down the line.
Instead of blaming it on otherthings or relying on stuff that
is outside the relationship tosave you.
Yeah, I mean, my whole point with all this and then
bringing up our kids being like,you know, Nestor's and all that
(31:34):
is I don't want that to happen.
I want to work on it now.
I want to build our relationshipso much.
Because we get it.
We've been through it.
We've been through the youngerkids, the stress, how hard it is
to connect when they're littleand how much attention that they
need, but there comes a pointwhere we need to figure out
what's best for the both of usand what's best for us in our
relationship.
Yeah,
(31:54):
and I think that's why we invented the penis showing game
That's why we focus so much onbeing together because we we
didn't
invent the
penis Relationship and we found ways to play with it
around it.
Of course like I would hate hatefor us to Get to a point where
our kids are out of the houseand now you and I are just
(32:17):
looking at each other like, whatthe fuck I would rather be the
couple that's like, Oh, I can'twait to you, you, I see you and
I can't wait until these kids,but that's not always the case.
It really isn't.
And so we do think that, like,creating.
Um, games with one another anddoing things to like continue to
build that intimacy and tocontinue to build that
(32:38):
relationship with one anothertruth or dare is a, is a minimal
way that you can do that.
Yeah.
It's a small one, but it'seffective.
It's super effective.
We have had such deepconversations around our
simplistic games of truth anddare
Well, it's, it's one of thosethings where you have like this,
this little injection to dealto, to deal with, uh, of a
topic.
So in a normal conversation youmight be sitting back going
(33:00):
like, what do we talk about now?
Every relationship with beinglong enough, you start to run
out of things to talk about,especially if you find
yourselves as melding into oneidentity and you don't maintain
your own separate identities.
All of a sudden you findyourselves being like, we've run
out of things to talk
about.
It's got to be so boring.
Yeah.
But with doing stuff like this,it allows you to explore each
(33:24):
other on an emotional level andon a very sexual level too.
If you, if you want it to gothat way, we prefer our, like a
lot of our stuff is sexual andwe're a fucking sex podcast,
right?
So a lot of the things that wedo has a core principle of sex.
It holds a very high value.
So a lot of our truth or darestuff, a lot of our games that
we play, it revolves aroundthat.
(33:44):
Describe this fantasy to me,like describe this act to me.
How would you want to do that?
Uh, and also leads toconversations because we'll do
say a truth, a truth one, uh,where it's where we're talking
to each other about somethingand it leads to a very deep
conversation.
Yeah.
But, but that's the whole point of it is like, it can lead
you just because you play thegame doesn't mean it's going to
(34:05):
lead to something likeextravagance.
You can still just play the gameand it be.
Like you said, lead to somethingthat's like more in depth.
We've had very intenseconversations after we played
the game, but what it did wasallow that like door to open.
There have been things that I'veadmitted to you just through the
game that I haven't admitted toyou through our relationship
(34:25):
check ins, you know?
I know you're always funny.
Cause you're like, we're notplaying this in person.
Get out of here.
No, I will go away.
No, text me and ask me and thendisappear for five minutes.
But the thing is, is like,that's 1 of the things I love
about us most is because we'renever trying to not.
(34:45):
Advancing in our relationship.
We're always trying that.
We're always looking to betterwhatever we can.
I think that, uh, one, one moregame that you can probably play
together, which you don't, itdoesn't have to be as much of a
game, but there should be anexperience, um, is heavily
evidence based and is one thatreally is shown to provide a lot
(35:06):
for, for relationships, forcouples, for, for sexual
partners has been pleasuremapping.
Yeah, we talked about this at lunch.
Yes.
Talk about it.
I love that.
So essentially what you can dois you, you take turns.
It can be a timer if you wantto, or as long as you want it to
last.
One partner lies down while theother one uses some sort of
sensory object.
This might be your hands.
It could be ice cubes.
(35:27):
It could be a feather.
It could be candle wax,anything.
Uh, but what you do is you gohead to toe, toe to head,
wherever you want to start offthe, on the body and you go a
little small.
Zone by zone, region by region,figuring out where on your
partner are their pleasurezones.
And every time that you reachone, you can mark it down, do
(35:47):
this here.
Um, or if they don't like it,they have aversion to it.
Say, Hey, avoid this area.
Somebody might be like, Hey,don't touch my left thigh.
Right?
I hate this.
Doesn't matter why they hate it,but if it's something that they
don't enjoy, you can write thatdown and you continue on and on
and on.
What's this is going to do isit's going to prevent you from
falling into the routine routineof being like, all right, I'm
(36:09):
going to be physical with mypartner.
All right, lay down.
We're going to go from touchingand kissing to oral to sex to
finish.
So I know
she likes lips.
I know she likes necks a little,uh, you know, nipple tweaks and
then, and
that's it,
and then we're done.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so it allows you to exploremore.
And so you can map out, each ofthe partners can do that and
then help save the map.
(36:30):
Yeah.
Sew it away somewhere.
So then before the next timethat you're going to be
physical, if y'all have beendirty texting all day and we
have a date night or somethinglike that's going on, you're
like, we're probably going to bepretty intense this evening.
Pull it back out and be like,Oh, that's right.
I forgot.
They enjoy this sensation inthis area.
Let's explore with that So nowyou're not having all this work
of starting something and yourpartner's in their head going
(36:53):
this.
This is, this doesn't reallyfeel good.
I'll pretend it feels good.
I might moan a little bit andmove around, but in reality, I'm
kind of going, no, it's not forme.
So do that with each other.
Again, it's a good way to buildintimacy.
Plus the time that you're doing,it allows you to actually
concentrate.
My suggestion is don't make itsuper sexual.
Dar don't, don't have it evolveinto.
(37:16):
Intercourse.
Yeah, no one's planning to come tonight.
We're just looking at eachother's zones and what we like
to feel.
If it leads
there, I mean, that's fine.
Yeah, that's fine.
However, don't, don't enter inwith the intention.
Yeah, it doesn't have to.
And I think that's important to say is like any
sexual, um, act that you do withyour partner doesn't necessarily
need to Need to lead tointercourse, but it does remind
(37:36):
me that there was something thatI dared you the other day,
which one,
when I asked you to try to pleasure me or touch me for the
first time, as if you have nevertouched me before.
This is, I know that we talkabout relationship check ins,
but you need to have physicalcheck ins.
You need to have ways thatyou're like, Hey, um, I'm going
(37:57):
to lay here and I'm going to letyou explore me and, and, and I,
and I told Casey to explore mein a way that he's never
explored me before, because Iwas like, and not feeling weird
for trying something that he'snever tried.
It was very
much like, Hey, pretend thatyou've never done this before.
And I'm a brand new body.
And let's go from
there.
Just try from there.
(38:18):
But hope was again, if you'regoing to have emotional, you
need to have physical check ins.
And that means sitting down andasking your partner to explore
or touch in a way that you'venever been touched before, or in
a way that he, or they havenever touched you before.
So then you can again, start tolike, maybe respond in a new
(38:40):
way.
Or because I feel like we get,get kind of stuck on like what
we experienced in the past andOh yeah, that felt good.
Oh, it felt good.
Oh, it felt good.
But now I'm ignoring other partsof my body.
Yes, we, we are typicallycreatures of habit.
We know what feels good.
So then we go immediately anddoing the things that we've
known before, doing the thingsthat are pleasure or partner
before, because we're like,that's a sure thing and I don't
(39:01):
have to worry about it becomingsomething else.
That's all good ideas.
All good ideas.
It is.
All right.
All right.
Well, um, we've given you abunch of information today.
We don't want to overdo it.
So for now, go explore some ofthe things.
If you want to drop us a line,go on our Instagram, naughty by
(39:23):
nature, K N O T T Y dot B I dotN A T U R E to find us.
You can drop us a line and askus your questions.
Bring us in.
Let us like, let us help youout.
We have little entire shows around questions.
So those are some
of our favorite whenever peoplewrite in
shows, please ask us questions.
Those are my favorite.
We
do enjoy answering questions.
So for yet another episode, I amyour host.
(39:45):
One of them, Dr.
Casey Sanders,
and I'm just Carrie.
And we'll see you next time.
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