(Encore of Episode 05)
“I’m Speaking.” We all remember that magical, kick-ass Kamala Harris moment, right?
We encourage our daughters to be assertive, share their stories, and speak up. But when we teach them that interrupting is impolite and rude, are we inadvertently undermining their ability to rightfully claim airtime -- even if they’re interrupted by someone else? Will they choose politeness over being heard? Will they be afraid to assert themselves in a lively discussion, afraid that they’ll offend?
Listen to hear:
- The different social norms for boys and girls
- Disparities in how much men talk versus women in executive settings
- The 10 words every girl needs to learn, according to Soraya Chemaly
- Sample phrases illustrating how to interrupt
- What to tell your daughters to make them feel more comfortable with interrupting
Know Them, Be Them, Raise Them
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (00:01):
Hi, everyone.
As I mentioned in last week's episode,I've decided to take my foot off the new
episode pedal for a short summer hiatus.
This is my first summer as a podcaster andI underestimated how thrown off I would
be by the perfect storm of kid activities,or lack thereof, traveling and bouts
of unexpected events like summer colds,block parties, house repairs, et cetera.
(00:23):
I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
I also realized that I reallywanted a short break to step back
and plan out what the podcast willlook like for the next season.
So rather than release new episodes,I'm sharing a handful of the top
episodes for the next few weeks.
I know that every episode ispacked with information, even
(00:43):
though they're relatively short.
So consider this a chance to listento fan favorite episodes you haven't
heard before, or if you're a loyallistener, maybe you'll find yourself
celebrating how far you've come or howmuch you remember since you listened
to this episode, the first time.
Whatever camp you fall into.
I am so glad you're here andI hope you're enjoying summer.
(01:05):
I'll be returning with new episodes forseason two, which launches in August.
If you haven't done so already headto no be raise them.com or the show
notes and sign up for my email list.
You'll be the first to know aboutupcoming projects, including a collective
for mindful moms of girls, sort of amastermind for women who want to show
(01:26):
up for themselves in powerful ways,and also be intentional about how they
raise their daughters and sons forthat matter and follow at Noby raise
them on Instagram and like the podcastpage on Facebook, facebook.com/nobe.
Raise them.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to know them.
(01:46):
Be them, raise them a show to helpmoms stay informed and inspired so
they can show up for themselves andtheir daughters the way they want to.
I'm your host, Carmelitatwo, join me each week.
As I cover a variety of topics, alldesigned to support, mindful and growth
oriented moms of girls, especially girlsin their crucial queen and teen years
(02:08):
today, I'm sharing my own thoughts aboutsomething that came up not too long.
And left me wondering,
I was waiting for the train inearshot of a small group of teens.
And I noticed one person kept talkingover and interrupting the others.
Now I completely understand how tweens andteens much like any group can get riled up
and in their excitement, chatter overlapssentences get finished in a congenial way.
(02:32):
And voices naturally get lost in the.
But in this particular scenario, itseemed that a couple of girls were
being talked over and they justweren't being allowed to speak much.
Or have a say aboutthe conversation topic.
I know this because as moms, we naturallydeveloped some serious VES dropping
skills so I'm half listening and I kepthearing this one person interrupt others
(02:53):
time and time again, I kind of wantedto turn around and ask this person.
Do you realize you've been interruptingeveryone else, let them speak and
then tell the girls interrupt back.
You were rudely interrupted.
So you go ahead and interrupt back.
it got me thinking, whydidn't they interrupt back?
(03:15):
Did they really not careto finish their thoughts?
Or were they too polite or niceto call out the interrupter or
jump back in with their opinions?
I encourage my daughters to be assertive,to share their stories and participate.
But by raising my daughters tothink that manners are morals and
interrupting is impolite and rude.
(03:35):
Am I inadvertently undermining theirability to rightfully claim air time?
Will they be afraid to assertthemselves in a lively discussion,
afraid that they'll offend?
Will they choose politenessover being heard?
Or maybe they'll practice theirmanners and wait for a, a pause, a
time to reenter the conversation.
But what if the topic takes a turnand moves on and their point becomes
(03:58):
irrelevant as I'm sure you're aware,women and girls are conditioned to be
nice much more than men and boys SoiaShamali author of rage becomes her.
The power of women's anger puts it.
This.
globally.
Childhood politeness lessonsare gender asymmetrical.
We socialize girls to taketurns, listen more carefully,
(04:21):
not curse and resist interruptingin ways we don't expect of boys.
Put another way.
We generally teach girls subservienthabits and boys to exercise dominance.
She also adds parents interruptgirls twice as often and hold
them to stricter politeness norm.
teachers engage boys who correctlysee disruptive speech as a marker
(04:44):
of dominant masculinity, more oftenand more dynamically than girls.
All of this leads to boys and menbeing more prone to interrupt and
prevent others from interruptingthem while girls and women are more
likely not to interrupt and yield.
When interrupted this pattern establishedfrom a young age, leads to women
(05:05):
being seen as having less authority.
Shamali sites research that foundin male dominated problem, solving
groups, such as boards, committees, andlegislators, men speak 75% more than
women, which is why researchers summed up.
Having a seat at the table isnot the same as having a voice.
(05:26):
And what if your daughteris quieter by nature?
One of my daughters presents asmore introverted and quiet, so I'm
always curious and maybe concernedthat she's not speaking up and
being heard for girls like her.
that adds another obstacle.
Another layer of hesitation on top ofthe gendered expectations of politeness.
(05:47):
It's a lot to try andwrap your head around.
I suspect we need to address this as muchas possible when girls are growing up.
when they presumably have safe spaces inthe classroom and at home when they've
been less worn down by everyday slights.
And when the gender gaps on boardsin pay, et cetera, haven't been
subconsciously normalized yet.
(06:09):
So how can we strike a balance?
How can we help ensure our daughtersfeel comfortable, continuing to speak
their minds and holding their ownwithout entirely forsaking good manners.
And if you're like me, If I haveto interrupt, I'd rather do so
in a user friendly way, that'sless likely to alienate others.
It can build trust and allyship,both important qualities
(06:32):
to have in any setting.
So after digging around, here'swhat I wanna teach my girls.
Number one, interrupting.
And whether interruptingback is appropriate.
Depends on the context.
A judge interrupting a lawyer in thecourtroom is different than a teacher
interrupting a student to make acorrection, which is also different
(06:55):
from a classmate interrupting as you'resharing your opinion on climate change.
there aren't any real hard and fastrules, but as a very loose general
rule, if it's in a casual setting, aclassroom discussion or a work meeting,
I think you should speak confidentlyand feel comfortable preventing
interruptions from others and interruptback if someone does, which leads me
(07:15):
to my second point, interrupting back.
If you're in one of those contexts,then you can and should interrupt back
when you've been rudely interrupted.
Think of Kamala Harris during thevice presidential debates in 2020,
and confidently say, I'm speaking andcontinue with your thoughts when someone
tries to interrupt other options,depending on your personality might
(07:38):
be, would you mind if I finish or I'mnot quite done with my point yet, or
maybe as soon as I'm done, then you can.
Then when you're done speaking, youcan loop back to them and say, okay,
so, and so you wanted to say something,number three, practice, and be prepared
to use the phrases that PSIA Shamaliproffers in her article 10 simple words.
(08:01):
Every girl needs to learn firststopped interrupting me second.
I just said that.
And third, no explanation needed.
It's 10, 10 words between three phrases.
Stop interrupting me.
I just said that andno explanation needed.
These are straightforward waysof getting the point across and
(08:23):
taking back the conversation.
Number four, when you have to initiate aninterruption, Casey, Aaron Clark and Julie
fog, a vital voice offer a few approaches.
You can acknowledge theprevious point first.
That's a really good point, orI hear what you're saying, then
continue with your thoughts.
(08:45):
You can also begin by saying, Ineed to interrupt you for a second
before we switch topics, or I needto interrupt you before we move on.
If you can use your interruption tothrow support behind a classmate or a
colleague, then even better, this tiesback to that allyship aspect as well.
Like, you know, related to this discussionpoint, Ella just did a paper on that.
(09:07):
number five when interrupting speakconfidently loudly, and without any
apologies, I used to be one of thosepeople that said, sorry, way too often.
Even when I was bumping at thetable, like who was I hurting?
No one.
And even when I wasn't saying, sorry, Isometimes spoke, like I was apologizing.
I know you've heard it that,so I, I, I need you to turn in
(09:30):
this report, that kind of thing.
I've become much better at that, butit took practice speaking with courage
and confidence, and I hope my girlslearn that and know that practicing
will help them feel those emotions too.
Number six, don't confuse a step outsideof your comfort zone with a misstep
(09:51):
don't let discomfort or fear stop youfrom standing up for yourself or others.
Number seven.
Remember you are notresponsible for everyone.
Else's feelings.
Know what you need to say and knowthat you deserve to be heard, how
other people take it is their problem.
That's not to say you should completelydisregard others' feelings in every
(10:13):
context, but if you are interruptingback, And or are interrupting someone who
may consciously or subconsciously thinkmen have more authority and should speak
more than women, then they'll likely beoffended, but that's not your problem.
Don't silence yourself tomake someone else comfortable.
As I wrote these, I realized that I'mstill practicing and fine tuning most of
(10:37):
these points, these tips are just as muchfor me at 46 as they are for my daughters.
I'm definitely a product of societalexpectations and gendered behavior
of the seventies, eighties, nineties.
But I'm optimistic that if Istart impressing these ideas
upon my daughters, now they'll.
Skills that they practicethen Excel at and over time
(11:01):
they'll become second nature.
And then if they're interruptedat Thanksgiving dinner or perhaps
a vice presidential debate,I'll be so proud and tickled
to hear them interruptback with an unapologetic.
I'm speaking.
Thanks for joining me today.
It takes action to claim something.
(11:23):
So by listening, you've already shownthat you're the kind of mom who shows
up for herself and her daughter Woohoo.
That's worthy of a highfive and a thumbs up emoji.
For sure.
If you liked what you heard, pleasetell a friend and hit subscribe or
follow in your favorite podcast app.
If you're on Instagram, follow atno B raise them for quotes from
(11:43):
wise women reminders and tips anda heads up on upcoming podcasts.
And feel free to visit no,be raise them.com to sign up
for the monthly newsletter.
Thanks again for listeningand here's to strong women.
May we know them?
May we be them?
And may we raise them?
Hi, everyone.
As I mentioned in last week's episode,I've decided to take my foot off the new
episode pedal for a short summer hiatus.
This is my first summer as a podcaster andI underestimated how thrown off I would
be by the perfect storm of kid activities,or lack thereof, traveling and bouts
of unexpected events like summer colds,block parties, house repairs, et cetera.
(00:23):
I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
I also realized that I reallywanted a short break to step back
and plan out what the podcast willlook like for the next season.
So rather than release new episodes,I'm sharing a handful of the top
episodes for the next few weeks.
I know that every episode ispacked with information, even
(00:43):
though they're relatively short.
So consider this a chance to listento fan favorite episodes you haven't
heard before, or if you're a loyallistener, maybe you'll find yourself
celebrating how far you've come or howmuch you remember since you listened
to this episode, the first time.
Whatever camp you fall into.
I am so glad you're here andI hope you're enjoying summer.
(01:05):
I'll be returning with new episodes forseason two, which launches in August.
If you haven't done so already headto no be raise them.com or the show
notes and sign up for my email list.
You'll be the first to know aboutupcoming projects, including a collective
for mindful moms of girls, sort of amastermind for women who want to show
(01:26):
up for themselves in powerful ways,and also be intentional about how they
raise their daughters and sons forthat matter and follow at Noby raise
them on Instagram and like the podcastpage on Facebook, facebook.com/nobe.
Raise them.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to know them.
(01:46):
Be them, raise them a show to helpmoms stay informed and inspired so
they can show up for themselves andtheir daughters the way they want to.
I'm your host, Carmelitatwo, join me each week.
As I cover a variety of topics, alldesigned to support, mindful and growth
oriented moms of girls, especially girlsin their crucial queen and teen years
(02:08):
today, I'm sharing my own thoughts aboutsomething that came up not too long.
And left me wondering,
I was waiting for the train inearshot of a small group of teens.
And I noticed one person kept talkingover and interrupting the others.
Now I completely understand how tweens andteens much like any group can get riled up
and in their excitement, chatter overlapssentences get finished in a congenial way.
(02:32):
And voices naturally get lost in the.
But in this particular scenario, itseemed that a couple of girls were
being talked over and they justweren't being allowed to speak much.
Or have a say aboutthe conversation topic.
I know this because as moms, we naturallydeveloped some serious VES dropping
skills so I'm half listening and I kepthearing this one person interrupt others
(02:53):
time and time again, I kind of wantedto turn around and ask this person.
Do you realize you've been interruptingeveryone else, let them speak and
then tell the girls interrupt back.
You were rudely interrupted.
So you go ahead and interrupt back.
it got me thinking, whydidn't they interrupt back?
(03:15):
Did they really not careto finish their thoughts?
Or were they too polite or niceto call out the interrupter or
jump back in with their opinions?
I encourage my daughters to be assertive,to share their stories and participate.
But by raising my daughters tothink that manners are morals and
interrupting is impolite and rude.
(03:35):
Am I inadvertently undermining theirability to rightfully claim air time?
Will they be afraid to assertthemselves in a lively discussion,
afraid that they'll offend?
Will they choose politenessover being heard?
Or maybe they'll practice theirmanners and wait for a, a pause, a
time to reenter the conversation.
But what if the topic takes a turnand moves on and their point becomes
(03:58):
irrelevant as I'm sure you're aware,women and girls are conditioned to be
nice much more than men and boys SoiaShamali author of rage becomes her.
The power of women's anger puts it.
This.
globally.
Childhood politeness lessonsare gender asymmetrical.
We socialize girls to taketurns, listen more carefully,
(04:21):
not curse and resist interruptingin ways we don't expect of boys.
Put another way.
We generally teach girls subservienthabits and boys to exercise dominance.
She also adds parents interruptgirls twice as often and hold
them to stricter politeness norm.
teachers engage boys who correctlysee disruptive speech as a marker
(04:44):
of dominant masculinity, more oftenand more dynamically than girls.
All of this leads to boys and menbeing more prone to interrupt and
prevent others from interruptingthem while girls and women are more
likely not to interrupt and yield.
When interrupted this pattern establishedfrom a young age, leads to women
(05:05):
being seen as having less authority.
Shamali sites research that foundin male dominated problem, solving
groups, such as boards, committees, andlegislators, men speak 75% more than
women, which is why researchers summed up.
Having a seat at the table isnot the same as having a voice.
(05:26):
And what if your daughteris quieter by nature?
One of my daughters presents asmore introverted and quiet, so I'm
always curious and maybe concernedthat she's not speaking up and
being heard for girls like her.
that adds another obstacle.
Another layer of hesitation on top ofthe gendered expectations of politeness.
(05:47):
It's a lot to try andwrap your head around.
I suspect we need to address this as muchas possible when girls are growing up.
when they presumably have safe spaces inthe classroom and at home when they've
been less worn down by everyday slights.
And when the gender gaps on boardsin pay, et cetera, haven't been
subconsciously normalized yet.
(06:09):
So how can we strike a balance?
How can we help ensure our daughtersfeel comfortable, continuing to speak
their minds and holding their ownwithout entirely forsaking good manners.
And if you're like me, If I haveto interrupt, I'd rather do so
in a user friendly way, that'sless likely to alienate others.
It can build trust and allyship,both important qualities
(06:32):
to have in any setting.
So after digging around, here'swhat I wanna teach my girls.
Number one, interrupting.
And whether interruptingback is appropriate.
Depends on the context.
A judge interrupting a lawyer in thecourtroom is different than a teacher
interrupting a student to make acorrection, which is also different
(06:55):
from a classmate interrupting as you'resharing your opinion on climate change.
there aren't any real hard and fastrules, but as a very loose general
rule, if it's in a casual setting, aclassroom discussion or a work meeting,
I think you should speak confidentlyand feel comfortable preventing
interruptions from others and interruptback if someone does, which leads me
(07:15):
to my second point, interrupting back.
If you're in one of those contexts,then you can and should interrupt back
when you've been rudely interrupted.
Think of Kamala Harris during thevice presidential debates in 2020,
and confidently say, I'm speaking andcontinue with your thoughts when someone
tries to interrupt other options,depending on your personality might
(07:38):
be, would you mind if I finish or I'mnot quite done with my point yet, or
maybe as soon as I'm done, then you can.
Then when you're done speaking, youcan loop back to them and say, okay,
so, and so you wanted to say something,number three, practice, and be prepared
to use the phrases that PSIA Shamaliproffers in her article 10 simple words.
(08:01):
Every girl needs to learn firststopped interrupting me second.
I just said that.
And third, no explanation needed.
It's 10, 10 words between three phrases.
Stop interrupting me.
I just said that andno explanation needed.
These are straightforward waysof getting the point across and
(08:23):
taking back the conversation.
Number four, when you have to initiate aninterruption, Casey, Aaron Clark and Julie
fog, a vital voice offer a few approaches.
You can acknowledge theprevious point first.
That's a really good point, orI hear what you're saying, then
continue with your thoughts.
(08:45):
You can also begin by saying, Ineed to interrupt you for a second
before we switch topics, or I needto interrupt you before we move on.
If you can use your interruption tothrow support behind a classmate or a
colleague, then even better, this tiesback to that allyship aspect as well.
Like, you know, related to this discussionpoint, Ella just did a paper on that.
(09:07):
number five when interrupting speakconfidently loudly, and without any
apologies, I used to be one of thosepeople that said, sorry, way too often.
Even when I was bumping at thetable, like who was I hurting?
No one.
And even when I wasn't saying, sorry, Isometimes spoke, like I was apologizing.
I know you've heard it that,so I, I, I need you to turn in
(09:30):
this report, that kind of thing.
I've become much better at that, butit took practice speaking with courage
and confidence, and I hope my girlslearn that and know that practicing
will help them feel those emotions too.
Number six, don't confuse a step outsideof your comfort zone with a misstep
(09:51):
don't let discomfort or fear stop youfrom standing up for yourself or others.
Number seven.
Remember you are notresponsible for everyone.
Else's feelings.
Know what you need to say and knowthat you deserve to be heard, how
other people take it is their problem.
That's not to say you should completelydisregard others' feelings in every
(10:13):
context, but if you are interruptingback, And or are interrupting someone who
may consciously or subconsciously thinkmen have more authority and should speak
more than women, then they'll likely beoffended, but that's not your problem.
Don't silence yourself tomake someone else comfortable.
As I wrote these, I realized that I'mstill practicing and fine tuning most of
(10:37):
these points, these tips are just as muchfor me at 46 as they are for my daughters.
I'm definitely a product of societalexpectations and gendered behavior
of the seventies, eighties, nineties.
But I'm optimistic that if Istart impressing these ideas
upon my daughters, now they'll.
Skills that they practicethen Excel at and over time
(11:01):
they'll become second nature.
And then if they're interruptedat Thanksgiving dinner or perhaps
a vice presidential debate,I'll be so proud and tickled
to hear them interruptback with an unapologetic.
I'm speaking.
Thanks for joining me today.
It takes action to claim something.
(11:23):
So by listening, you've already shownthat you're the kind of mom who shows
up for herself and her daughter Woohoo.
That's worthy of a highfive and a thumbs up emoji.
For sure.
If you liked what you heard, pleasetell a friend and hit subscribe or
follow in your favorite podcast app.
If you're on Instagram, follow atno B raise them for quotes from
(11:43):
wise women reminders and tips anda heads up on upcoming podcasts.
And feel free to visit no,be raise them.com to sign up
for the monthly newsletter.
Thanks again for listeningand here's to strong women.
May we know them?
May we be them?
And may we raise them?
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