March 30, 2023 • 25 mins
Val Monroe, former beauty editor for O, The Oprah Magazine and writer of the popular Substack newsletter How Not to F*ck Up Your Face, and Body Relationship Coach Debbie Saroufim, chat with host Carmelita Tiu about how to navigate beauty culture.
We cover:
- The importance of diversifying what you see and media literacy
- The myth of “figuring it out” and having it all together
- Normalizing making informed choices
- Social media - the good, the bad, and how much time Debbie spends on it ;)
- The duality of our emotions - you can feel dislike something and that doesn't mean it needs change
- Awesome parting thought from Val about what real beauty is
To learn more about Debbie Saroufim, visit www.bodyrelationship.com , and follow her on Instagram @bodyrelationship_coach. And check out her Parents Guide, for what NOT to say to your kids if you want them to have a health relationship with their bodies.
Want to feel happier about your appearance—especially as you age—you might like reading more about what Val has to say about it. Subscribe for free to How Not to F*ck Up Your Face at valeriemonroe.substack.com.
About Your Host, Carmelita / Cat / Millie Tiu
Mom, spouse, coach, podcaster, wordsmith, legal eagle. Endlessly curious about how we can show up better for ourselves – because when we do that, we also show up better for our kids and those around us. Visit carmelitatiu.com to learn more about Cat, and for info on 1:1 coaching, the mom collective, and her monthly newsletter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hi all and welcome to know them.
Be them.
Raise them.
Uh, show to help busy, mindful, andgrowth oriented moms stay informed
and inspired as they navigate theirdaughter's crucial tween and teen years.
I'm your host Carmelita too.
And I am so glad you're here.
Be sure to subscribe to the podcast visitknowberaisethem.com follow at nobody.
(00:25):
Raise them on Instagram.
And if you've got two minutes,please leave a review on
apple podcasts or Spotify.
They mean so much and they do helpothers find and listen to the podcast.
For example, Corinne and organizingexpert who goes by @gridandglam on
Instagram left a review last week saying"we are so glad we found this podcast.
(00:46):
Each episode is packed with inspirationaladvice while tackling tough topics."
Yay.
I am so glad you found it too, Corinne.
So.
In the last episode, episode 51, whichyou may hear if you just keep letting your
podcast player keep rolling after this.
But I featured the first halfof my discussion with Debbie
(01:06):
Saroufim and Val Monroe.
Debbie Saroufim is a body relationshipcoach based in Southern California
with a background in personal training.
Through coaching virtualworkouts and community.
She helps women learn tolove their bodies, even while
they're working on them.
Build an immunity to died cultures,negative messages, and establish
a healthy relationship with food.
(01:28):
Val Monroe was beauty director at Othe Oprah magazine for nearly 16 years.
And she's consideredan expert in the field.
She was also an editor at Ms., Redbook, self and parenting magazines
among others, and has written hundredsof articles on a wide range of topics
for various national publications.
She also publishes a popularsub stack newsletter.
(01:51):
How not to F up your face, philosophicaland practical advice for anyone
who's ever looked into a mirror.
In the last episode, whichis linked in the show notes.
But again, you can also probablylisten to it if you're just going
to let your podcast player roll.
We talked aboutobjectification and beauty.
Mirror meditation, whatit is and why it works.
(02:13):
The roots of beauty standardsand the importance of being
able to sit with our discomfort.
And how you don't have to feelbeautiful to be beautiful.
That duality informed the jumpingoff point for today's episode.
So without further ado here isthe rest of our conversation.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (02:34):
So, so two things, I'm hearing.
One was this idea of expandingwhat is considered beautiful.
And then another thing that I felt wascoming up was trying to distance beauty
as the source of our valuation period.
So, there's kind of two ways wecould improve how we view things
(02:54):
or our perspectives or society.
one being, expanding our definitionsof beauty and the other being,
beauty not having the same holdover us in terms of how we see it
as the primary source of our worth.
Are there ways, uh, whether they're smallday-to-day things, or larger efforts
(03:15):
that moms, women, especially, you know,being a mom of two girls who are totally
on the cusp of this, like already doingthe long stairs at their eyebrows,
or, they're their chins, et cetera.
I mean, How can we change the narrative?
How can we help encourage ouryouth to, you know, live into and
(03:36):
grow into a different reality?
, Debbie Saroufim: well, I, I can tell you some of the things
that we are doing in this house.
, and then I also wanna saylike, it's a process, right?
Like, I have to continue to, as Idiscover, sort of where the toxicity
of the culture lives within me, Iidentify more pieces of it elsewhere.
(03:59):
Um, so one of the first things I'm gonnasay, and it sound it, I almost feel like
it sounds too young for someone my age tosay, but, I've spent a lot of time really
curating what I'm seeing on social media.
you know, I think there are theseaesthetically appealing social media
profiles that you see, and they reinforcethis Eurocentric idea of beauty.
(04:22):
I have gone out of my way to followdifferent body types, different
ages, different genders, differentcolors, different, just really
just sort of, Eliminating the ideathat there's only one way to be.
And I think that it's really importantto do, not just for like people
who look like you, but for you.
(04:43):
Like, you know, I always say you don'tknow what's gonna happen to your body
and you know, you don't know what'sgonna happen to your face, right?
So we want to not only normalize whatit's going through right now, and that
for me is a 42 year old space, butI don't, I don't want every single
day to be another battle, right?
So just normalizing the fact that thisis what bodies look like because, you
(05:04):
know, the kids they're gonna haveso much more access to it than I did
at that age because of social media.
I had this very cool moment for aparent thing the other night we were
watching the Celtics game and, uh,a Gatorade fit commercial came on.
It was very stereotypical Gatorade inthat it's sweaty athletes drinking, and
it's normally these, you know, this.
(05:25):
Aesthetic.
What we identify ashealthy looking athlete.
And then they showed, um, a fatterbodied athlete and she was drinking.
And I'm, I have to say shoutout to Gatorade Fit because
they're normalizing these bodies.
But the cool moment that I got to haveas a parent is my daughter goes, oh
(05:46):
mommy, this is a commercial you like.
And I was like, what?
And she goes, well cuz they're showingdifferent body types and in all the
shows I watch, everybody's just thin.
And so she knew, right?
And so just expanding enough toremind ourselves that there is other
(06:07):
stuff out there, normalizing it.
I think so much of it is sort of,you know, our generation trying
to sort of pull away from whatour parents, like everything was
fairy tales with when I grew up.
But we don't wanna pull the,the magic out of childhood.
And so how do you do it with,and it can be all of it, right?
And so I thought that this was a coolmoment and um, if we didn't have that
(06:27):
normalizing in our house, I don'tthink that moment would've happened.
So that's my big piece of advice isto just sort of bring in real looking
bodies and people and faces, um,including faces that have had work done.
And you just wannanormalize all of it, right?
(06:47):
You wanna normalize the factthat, hey, if you want to get a
facelift, you can get a facelift.
You're not good for it,you're not bad for it.
You're just a person who got a facelift.
This is a person who chosenot to get a facelift, right?
And you just wanna normalizethe choice that you have in
participating in the, in the culture.
That's my, that's my answer.
There you go.
Val Monroe (07:07):
Yeah, I think that's really important and I, I was hoping
that was what you were gonna say.
You know, I see a different thing herein Tokyo because Disney has such a
huge impact on the culture for somereason I don't really understand.
But, um, but Disneyland is a bigthing here and Disney Sea, and so,
consequently a lot of that kind ofsexist, you know, the old kind of
(07:30):
antiquated ideas about gender andgender roles, it's everywhere here.
And I see it in my granddaughterwho dresses up like a princess.
Which I think is wonderful, she lovesit, but she also likes to play, I think
I wrote about this not too long ago,she likes to play the, the prince who
vanquishes the bad guys with the sword.
So she's getting both in a way.
But I kind of worry about themessages that she's getting
(07:51):
from the old Disney stuff.
You know, I think what Deb was talkingabout in terms of normalizing differences
is really, really important, I justdon't know how far that is gonna go.
I mean, we'll find out, I guess, howfar that that'll go, but basically,
because we're fighting against thishuge capitalist engine, you know, that's
gonna be constantly pressuring our girlsto conform, to buy, and then of course
(08:16):
to buy into the, the whole culture.
Um, I think it's gonnabe an ongoing battle.
And, and I have to say that though,I'm often overwhelmed by the amount
of stuff Deb posts on social media.
I think it's super, super importantbecause that's one of the only ways that
we're going to be able to reach the kidswho are being affected by social media
(08:37):
in the ways that we consider negative.
Debbie Saroufim (08:39):
Yeah.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (08:40):
Hmm.
Debbie Saroufim (08:40):
Just for the record, I am also overwhelmed by how
much time I spend on social media.
Again, I feel, I feel far too old tobe spending that much time on social
media, but it is, such an incredibletool in a way to communicate with people.
And I think that there's sucha limited resource of honest,
vulnerable, this is what it feels like.
And so then I'm gonna come back to whatI said in my last conversation with you,
(09:01):
Cat, when we had to talk about how toraise girls with a healthy body image.
And I said, you know, we as parents,we get to keep reminding them that we
now have information that we didn't
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: have when kids, right? (09:12):
undefined
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Debbie Saroufim (09:13):
And so, We can comment on the, the gender dynamics
and the gender roles, but we can alsocomment on the beauty standards, right?
Like, "isn't it kinda unfortunatethat, that all of our shows are
still following those really old,old stylistic choices of like the
Prince comes to save the princess.
That's what they weredoing when I was a kid.
Now, we know culturally that women arecapable of so much more, but I think a lot
(09:39):
of people just kinda like these stories."
and we can have, it canbecome a conversation, right?
It can be, "it's a bummer that, thatpeople aren't thinking outside of this.
We get to think outside of this box!"
And then you get to normalize, youknow, I'm gonna refer back to what I
said before, which is that, um, you candislike something about your body and
that doesn't mean that it needs changing.
(09:59):
Which also doesn't mean thatyou can't change it, right?
I'm with Val on, if you, objectivelylook at your face and you say, "I
want a facelift and it's gonna makeme feel better, life is short."
Totally.
but it's a choice, right?
can you say I'm doing this for me?
Or is this something thatI'm doing for the culture?
And by the way, if the answer is theculture, that's not a wrong answer.
(10:20):
That's just an honest answer.
So it all kind of gets to be part ofthe conversation, which is, " we have so
much more information for you nowadaysthan, than I had when I was growing up.
I hope I'm giving you the tools to siftthrough it and navigate it and decide
what serves you and what doesn't.
Because it was just dumpedon me and now I'm still sort
(10:43):
of sorting through the rubble.
But my hope is that I'm giving youenough to question things, right?"
And they're gonna keep questioning things.
This isn't gonna be over with mydaughter's generation, I'm not
even confident that it will beover with her kids' generation
or, or her kid's kids' generation.
But I am hoping that bit by bit, we chipaway at it and continue to normalize
(11:03):
you know, feeling bad doesn't meanyou are bad, that you're allowed to
feel bad, and it is, again, just afeeling that you can move through.
And that all feelings, eventhe good ones pass, right?
Like, that's the conversation that needsto be normalized as opposed to this,
if you don't like it, Fix it, right?
Because then there's this implicationthat if you don't like it, it's
because something's wrong with it,and there is this one way to be,
(11:25):
and so I think, I thinkpart of healing is grieving.
I think that part of this healing processis grieving that you don't look the way
you wanna look or that you're not agingthe way you wanna age, or you know,
your, your teeth aren't what you wantedthem to be, or your stomach doesn't
fall the way you wanted it to fall.
Grieving is a huge part ofmaking peace and moving on to
(11:47):
that next stage of acceptance.
So we have to be thereto let our kids grieve.
We're so afraid of them being sad, butwe need to give them space to grieve.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (11:57):
Mm mm
Val Monroe (11:58):
Mm-hmm.
Debbie Saroufim (11:59):
yeah.
Val Monroe (12:00):
That just reminds me of something that my granddaughter said the
other day when, um, she was telling me astory and I said something like, oh, and
I, I recognized as I was saying this, thatthere was an element of judgment to it.
And I said, oh, honey,that's such a sad story.
And she looked at me andshe said, I can be sad.
I'm like, good for you girl.
(12:20):
. Good for you, baby.
Of course you can
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: That's fantastic. (12:24):
undefined
Yeah, I, I think, you know, the termmedia literacy kind of came up in my mind
as you've both been talking about how weprocess what our culture is feeding us
and how we encourage our children and alsoourselves to work through that messaging.
Because, like you were saying,the feelings of, uh, you know, not
(12:45):
liking your body, that's doesn't meanthat your body doesn't have value.
And it's fine to feel bad, butalso taking that additional step
of thinking through what Val wastouching on, like why do I even feel
bad about my body in the first place?
Like why do I have these feelings?
Who's making me feel sad and inadequate?
And, you know, I too am not totallyconfident that, um, we will live to
(13:09):
see a time when beauty standards areabolished, but I think hopefully we'll
just have stronger individuals whocan make mindful decisions around it
and be able to navigate it better.
That's something I hope for myself.
Debbie Saroufim (13:21):
I mean, yeah, I mean that's the goal, right?
You gotta keep doing it every day cuzthe, the messaging isn't going anywhere.
So there's also, I think, thismyth that if you figure it out, you
just feel good from that point on.
And I wanna just dispel that myth toanybody listening like, uh, I have
plenty of days where I don't feel good.
Um, I'm guessing Val has plenty ofdays where she doesn't feel good.
(13:42):
And I also think I kind of figured outthat, again, not feeling good doesn't
mean there's anything wrong with me.
Right.
Why am I not feeling good?
Oh, I'm not, not feeling good cuzI'm not good, I'm, I'm not feeling
good cuz of this capitalistic societythat has taught me to feel bad.
And so, yeah, just having thatfreedom to know, You're okay.
(14:02):
Um, and just to remind, to remindeverybody out there, because I know that
when you listen to someone talk aboutthis, you're like, man, like she's got it.
She's just this.
And I, I, I just want you toknow like I cry regularly.
I have all the same feelings you have,I just have it much more publicly.
Which creates the illusionof confidence, right?
(14:24):
And that's part of it.
If we talk about the social media,this is a whole separate issue.
We can do another podcastabout it another time.
But like this whole, you know,issue of like what does doing it
publicly create about the illusionof confidence and whatnot around it.
And it's all smoke and mirrors people.
It's all smoke and mirrors.
Val Monroe (14:40):
What?
What is smoke and mirrors, Deb?
Debbie Saroufim (14:43):
SOS is like this idea that it's easy, you know, and
that like anyone has it figuredout and that if you have it figured
out, it's, it looks a certain way.
Cuz again, even with what I post,even with the obnoxious amount of,
vulnerability and regularity thatI post with God again, spends too
much time on special social media.
But like even with that, youstill only get the part of
(15:03):
me that the camera's on for.
You still don't get the moments ofdeliberation or the screaming that
happened moments before, and thenI was like, mommy's making a video.
And then I make a, you know,video where I'm like, hi, and
I've been thinking about this.
So you don't get that, right.
It's always just an image.
And then we carry our own narrative andour own perspective and put it on that.
(15:24):
So, I think it's really easy when you hearsomebody on a podcast giving advice and
talking about, uh, a subject that theyare well informed on and passionate about.
It's easy to take that andspin that narrative and turn it
into why you are not as good.
Um, and so I just kind of wanna say youare as good, again, you don't have to feel
(15:46):
like you are as good as me to be as goodas me, or Val or Cat or any of us, right?
We're.
We're just doing it in a publicsituation, which creates the illusion
of knowledge and confidence, and wehave just as much self-doubt as you.
You're just probably not gonna see it.
Um, and so that's just to sortof normalize all of that, right?
Val Monroe (16:07):
Yeah.
I think that's part of the hell ofsocial media is that it hides all
of the, you know, the vulnerability.
Mostly.
Mostly.
And then, you know, the peoplewho are being vulnerable.
I'm not talking about you, Deb, but, likePaulina, the model, whose last name I
can't pronounce without looking at it.
Um, she ha posted regularly these,these videos of her sobbing, you know,
(16:27):
into her pillow to show her followingthat she was not a perfect person.
And I looked at those andI was like, I'm moving on.
I have no desire to watch somebody,you know, sobbing into her pillow.
That's something, you know, fine ifshe wants to do it, but not for me.
And I just think it points to thedistortion that, so even when you know
you're doing what seems like a positivething, just the fact that you're doing
(16:52):
it performatively, I think is weird.
You know, it just, um, I don't know.
I don't know how, howproductive that is in the end.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (17:01):
Yeah.
That's a, a crazy topic, but theidea how our, everyone has become so
performative because of social mediaand that that's like the baseline of
so many young people's existence ishow do I put this out there in a way
Val Monroe (17:17):
right.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I want to be seen and, yeah. (17:18):
undefined
Val Monroe (17:20):
right?
Debbie Saroufim (17:20):
That's a lot to contend with.
And so then again, just making aspace to normalize the negativity
that, that you'll feel with it.
Cuz again, I think, I mean social mediais also capitalistic driven, right?
And we've all been programmed now toneed it and be addicted to it and need
it for our business and need it toshare our message and all of this stuff.
And yet social mediamakes us feel pretty bad.
(17:43):
And social media is amazing.
Social media is how Ifound both of you, right?
But it's the double-edged sword.
Social media has brought me to someincredible people who I've been able
to really grow and learn and healwith, and it's also been a huge part
of what I'm growing and healing from.
So it's both,
Val Monroe (18:02):
mm-hmm.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (18:03):
do either of you have kind of a parting
thought or quote that you'd liketo leave with the listeners, you
know, as they go off into the world.
Debbie Saroufim (18:13):
I'm gonna highlight the duality of things that we
can feel because, um, and I'lluse Val as my example actually,
and I've said this to her before.
Val is someone that I have alwaysjust admired from the get-go.
and One of the things thatI love about Val is that I
think she, um, challenges me.
(18:34):
She challenges me and I like theway my brain works when she's around.
And the challenge alsofeels scary sometimes.
Like, am I enough?
And that's mine, right?
That, am I enough?
Is mine, but I kind of justwanna say that, I think that
that's what life is, right?
Is the duality of like, Valis someone who, she has been
(18:59):
my role model and mentor.
I've talked to her about how in manyways she's the same age as my mother.
There's a lot of parallels there, and likethe way I connect with her is something
I don't have in that other relationship.
So I def like love is she,you know, I love you Val.
This isn't like awkward oranything, but like Yeah.
Um, and, and all my stuff gets stirred uparound Val and to just sort of say that.
(19:24):
That doesn't negate the love andthat doesn't, you know, the, the
love doesn't undo the fact that allmy stuff gets stirred up around Val.
And so I'm saying it here becauseagain, I think, this is where we
can normalize some of that, right.
? And just sort of hold thatduality at all times and know
that one doesn't negate the other.
That's, there you go,
Val Monroe (19:44):
So actually I, you know what I have to say, you know,
speaking of beauty, that is abeautiful thing that you're doing.
I keep saying, yeah, that's, that's a,that's a really strong feeling, but you
know what has nothing to do with me.
Debbie Saroufim (19:55):
Yeah.
It doesn't, it doesn't haveanything to do with Val.
Um, but that's, that'salso important, right?
Because like, I think we alwaysthink that, that it's about
the other person and it's not
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (20:06):
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Debbie Saroufim (20:07):
it's all about ourselves.
So,
Val Monroe (20:09):
Well, right, okay.
So I found, I found the quote here I go.
I'm gonna read it now.
Real beauty isn't aboutsymmetry or weight or makeup.
It's about looking life rightin the face and seeing all its
magnificence reflected in your own.
That's my parting thought.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (20:25):
mm.
Debbie Saroufim (20:26):
I want, I want that to be my parting thought too.
Can that be, can that
Val Monroe (20:30):
Well, you're welcome to it, you can find it on Good Reads,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (20:36):
uh, well this has been magnificent.
I'm just honored to have held spaceamongst the two of you, so thanks
Val Monroe (20:43):
again.
Fantastic.
Thanks Kat.
It's most wonderful to be with you.
I just loved this chat Ihad with Val and Debbie.
Here are my key takeaways.
Number one.
Embrace and promote media thatfeatures different body types,
genders, races, abilities, et cetera.
(21:06):
I know we've touched on this before,but it's so worth repeating when
we do this, it helps normalize thatthere's not just one way to be or look.
There's not a right wayand the rest are wrong.
You can do this by deliberatelyfollowing certain accounts and having
your daughters follow certain accountson social media, where people look
different and different body types of.
(21:28):
And different types of beauty andbodies, et cetera, are celebrated.
You can also do this by fosteringmedia literacy when watching
a TV show or movie together.
And noting what works andwhat could be improved.
Not necessarily in a judge-y way,like people who like this type
of movie or bad, but maybe makingit about how we know better.
(21:50):
And we know that this may not betrue or the whole truth today.
Number two.
Remember that we're steepedin messaging created by.
Uh, capitalist engine.
And I know that soundsscary, but it's the truth.
Which pressures our girls andus to conform and to consume.
So encourage your daughtersto be aware of it.
(22:10):
Not to make anyone feel bad abouthaving this desire to conform, but
so they can recognize where thatmay come from and build a set of
tools for navigating decisions asthey move forward in their lives.
Number three, normalize andembrace sitting with a variety
of emotions all at the same time.
(22:31):
You can dislike your body.
And that doesn't mean it needschanging and it doesn't mean
that you can't change it.
It's really up to you.
As long as you're thinkingabout what's motivating you and
normalizing the choice that you havein participating in the culture.
This reminds me a little bit of howthe goal of feminism and gender equity
isn't to make all moms go into theworkforce after they have kids or to
(22:55):
make women more like men, or to makeall women climb the corporate ladder.
It's really to give all people morefreedom of choice and the ability
to live authentically withoutbeing treated as less than, or
second class members of society.
Number four also relatingto the duality of emotions.
Feeling bad.
(23:15):
It doesn't mean you are bad.
You are allowed to feel bad andthat passes it's like grief.
And how grief is a step towards healing.
You can feel sad about how yourbody's changing or how you don't
meet certain beauty standards.
And remember that that doesn't meanyou have to change anything or that
there's anything wrong with you.
(23:36):
Number five.
There's a misconception that ifyou figure it out, you'll just
feel good from that point on.
And that's just not the case.
Even if intellectually, you know,what might be driving you to feel
bad about your body or your looks.
This doesn't mean you won't or shouldn'thave any negative thoughts or bad days.
It's an everyday thing.
(23:56):
And we're all in this together,using what we've got to navigate
the ups and downs because themessaging isn't going anywhere.
We'll just need to keep remindingourselves and each other that
we're okay just as we are.
And number six.
As Val said so eloquently.
Real beauty isn't aboutsymmetry or weight or makeup.
(24:18):
It's about looking life rightin the face and seeing all its
magnificence reflected in your own.
To learn more about Debbie Serafin visit.
www.bodyrelationship.com.
And follow her on Instagram atbody relationship underscore coach.
You can also check out her parents'guide for what not to say to your
(24:40):
kids, if you want them to have ahealthy relationship with their bodies
that is linked in the show notes.
Want to feel happier about yourappearance, especially as you age,
you might like reading more aboutwhat Val has to say about it.
. Subscribe for free to how not to F upyour face@valeriemonroedotsubstack.com.
(25:01):
Thanks so much for joining me this week.
I know you have choices and howyou decide to spend your time
and what you decide to listen to.
So I'm honored and gratefulthat you are listening to this.
Again, feel free to follow meon Instagram at @knowberaisethem
check out, knowberaisethem.comfor past episodes, you can leave
me a message or even a voicemail.
(25:22):
And in the next few weeks, I'll be sharingmore information about coaching as well as
a collective for moms who are interestedin learning more, staying in front of
the issues while also becoming informedabout how we can show up for ourselves,
and our kids with intention and grace.
Until then here's to strongwomen, may we know them.
(25:43):
May we be them.
And may we raise them.
Hi all and welcome to know them.
Be them.
Raise them.
Uh, show to help busy, mindful, andgrowth oriented moms stay informed
and inspired as they navigate theirdaughter's crucial tween and teen years.
I'm your host Carmelita too.
And I am so glad you're here.
Be sure to subscribe to the podcast visitknowberaisethem.com follow at nobody.
(00:25):
Raise them on Instagram.
And if you've got two minutes,please leave a review on
apple podcasts or Spotify.
They mean so much and they do helpothers find and listen to the podcast.
For example, Corinne and organizingexpert who goes by @gridandglam on
Instagram left a review last week saying"we are so glad we found this podcast.
(00:46):
Each episode is packed with inspirationaladvice while tackling tough topics."
Yay.
I am so glad you found it too, Corinne.
So.
In the last episode, episode 51, whichyou may hear if you just keep letting your
podcast player keep rolling after this.
But I featured the first halfof my discussion with Debbie
(01:06):
Saroufim and Val Monroe.
Debbie Saroufim is a body relationshipcoach based in Southern California
with a background in personal training.
Through coaching virtualworkouts and community.
She helps women learn tolove their bodies, even while
they're working on them.
Build an immunity to died cultures,negative messages, and establish
a healthy relationship with food.
(01:28):
Val Monroe was beauty director at Othe Oprah magazine for nearly 16 years.
And she's consideredan expert in the field.
She was also an editor at Ms., Redbook, self and parenting magazines
among others, and has written hundredsof articles on a wide range of topics
for various national publications.
She also publishes a popularsub stack newsletter.
(01:51):
How not to F up your face, philosophicaland practical advice for anyone
who's ever looked into a mirror.
In the last episode, whichis linked in the show notes.
But again, you can also probablylisten to it if you're just going
to let your podcast player roll.
We talked aboutobjectification and beauty.
Mirror meditation, whatit is and why it works.
(02:13):
The roots of beauty standardsand the importance of being
able to sit with our discomfort.
And how you don't have to feelbeautiful to be beautiful.
That duality informed the jumpingoff point for today's episode.
So without further ado here isthe rest of our conversation.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (02:34):
So, so two things, I'm hearing.
One was this idea of expandingwhat is considered beautiful.
And then another thing that I felt wascoming up was trying to distance beauty
as the source of our valuation period.
So, there's kind of two ways wecould improve how we view things
(02:54):
or our perspectives or society.
one being, expanding our definitionsof beauty and the other being,
beauty not having the same holdover us in terms of how we see it
as the primary source of our worth.
Are there ways, uh, whether they're smallday-to-day things, or larger efforts
(03:15):
that moms, women, especially, you know,being a mom of two girls who are totally
on the cusp of this, like already doingthe long stairs at their eyebrows,
or, they're their chins, et cetera.
I mean, How can we change the narrative?
How can we help encourage ouryouth to, you know, live into and
(03:36):
grow into a different reality?
, Debbie Saroufim: well, I, I can tell you some of the things
that we are doing in this house.
, and then I also wanna saylike, it's a process, right?
Like, I have to continue to, as Idiscover, sort of where the toxicity
of the culture lives within me, Iidentify more pieces of it elsewhere.
(03:59):
Um, so one of the first things I'm gonnasay, and it sound it, I almost feel like
it sounds too young for someone my age tosay, but, I've spent a lot of time really
curating what I'm seeing on social media.
you know, I think there are theseaesthetically appealing social media
profiles that you see, and they reinforcethis Eurocentric idea of beauty.
(04:22):
I have gone out of my way to followdifferent body types, different
ages, different genders, differentcolors, different, just really
just sort of, Eliminating the ideathat there's only one way to be.
And I think that it's really importantto do, not just for like people
who look like you, but for you.
(04:43):
Like, you know, I always say you don'tknow what's gonna happen to your body
and you know, you don't know what'sgonna happen to your face, right?
So we want to not only normalize whatit's going through right now, and that
for me is a 42 year old space, butI don't, I don't want every single
day to be another battle, right?
So just normalizing the fact that thisis what bodies look like because, you
(05:04):
know, the kids they're gonna haveso much more access to it than I did
at that age because of social media.
I had this very cool moment for aparent thing the other night we were
watching the Celtics game and, uh,a Gatorade fit commercial came on.
It was very stereotypical Gatorade inthat it's sweaty athletes drinking, and
it's normally these, you know, this.
(05:25):
Aesthetic.
What we identify ashealthy looking athlete.
And then they showed, um, a fatterbodied athlete and she was drinking.
And I'm, I have to say shoutout to Gatorade Fit because
they're normalizing these bodies.
But the cool moment that I got to haveas a parent is my daughter goes, oh
(05:46):
mommy, this is a commercial you like.
And I was like, what?
And she goes, well cuz they're showingdifferent body types and in all the
shows I watch, everybody's just thin.
And so she knew, right?
And so just expanding enough toremind ourselves that there is other
(06:07):
stuff out there, normalizing it.
I think so much of it is sort of,you know, our generation trying
to sort of pull away from whatour parents, like everything was
fairy tales with when I grew up.
But we don't wanna pull the,the magic out of childhood.
And so how do you do it with,and it can be all of it, right?
And so I thought that this was a coolmoment and um, if we didn't have that
(06:27):
normalizing in our house, I don'tthink that moment would've happened.
So that's my big piece of advice isto just sort of bring in real looking
bodies and people and faces, um,including faces that have had work done.
And you just wannanormalize all of it, right?
(06:47):
You wanna normalize the factthat, hey, if you want to get a
facelift, you can get a facelift.
You're not good for it,you're not bad for it.
You're just a person who got a facelift.
This is a person who chosenot to get a facelift, right?
And you just wanna normalizethe choice that you have in
participating in the, in the culture.
That's my, that's my answer.
There you go.
Val Monroe (07:07):
Yeah, I think that's really important and I, I was hoping
that was what you were gonna say.
You know, I see a different thing herein Tokyo because Disney has such a
huge impact on the culture for somereason I don't really understand.
But, um, but Disneyland is a bigthing here and Disney Sea, and so,
consequently a lot of that kind ofsexist, you know, the old kind of
(07:30):
antiquated ideas about gender andgender roles, it's everywhere here.
And I see it in my granddaughterwho dresses up like a princess.
Which I think is wonderful, she lovesit, but she also likes to play, I think
I wrote about this not too long ago,she likes to play the, the prince who
vanquishes the bad guys with the sword.
So she's getting both in a way.
But I kind of worry about themessages that she's getting
(07:51):
from the old Disney stuff.
You know, I think what Deb was talkingabout in terms of normalizing differences
is really, really important, I justdon't know how far that is gonna go.
I mean, we'll find out, I guess, howfar that that'll go, but basically,
because we're fighting against thishuge capitalist engine, you know, that's
gonna be constantly pressuring our girlsto conform, to buy, and then of course
(08:16):
to buy into the, the whole culture.
Um, I think it's gonnabe an ongoing battle.
And, and I have to say that though,I'm often overwhelmed by the amount
of stuff Deb posts on social media.
I think it's super, super importantbecause that's one of the only ways that
we're going to be able to reach the kidswho are being affected by social media
(08:37):
in the ways that we consider negative.
Debbie Saroufim (08:39):
Yeah.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (08:40):
Hmm.
Debbie Saroufim (08:40):
Just for the record, I am also overwhelmed by how
much time I spend on social media.
Again, I feel, I feel far too old tobe spending that much time on social
media, but it is, such an incredibletool in a way to communicate with people.
And I think that there's sucha limited resource of honest,
vulnerable, this is what it feels like.
And so then I'm gonna come back to whatI said in my last conversation with you,
(09:01):
Cat, when we had to talk about how toraise girls with a healthy body image.
And I said, you know, we as parents,we get to keep reminding them that we
now have information that we didn't
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: have when kids, right? (09:12):
undefined
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Debbie Saroufim (09:13):
And so, We can comment on the, the gender dynamics
and the gender roles, but we can alsocomment on the beauty standards, right?
Like, "isn't it kinda unfortunatethat, that all of our shows are
still following those really old,old stylistic choices of like the
Prince comes to save the princess.
That's what they weredoing when I was a kid.
Now, we know culturally that women arecapable of so much more, but I think a lot
(09:39):
of people just kinda like these stories."
and we can have, it canbecome a conversation, right?
It can be, "it's a bummer that, thatpeople aren't thinking outside of this.
We get to think outside of this box!"
And then you get to normalize, youknow, I'm gonna refer back to what I
said before, which is that, um, you candislike something about your body and
that doesn't mean that it needs changing.
(09:59):
Which also doesn't mean thatyou can't change it, right?
I'm with Val on, if you, objectivelylook at your face and you say, "I
want a facelift and it's gonna makeme feel better, life is short."
Totally.
but it's a choice, right?
can you say I'm doing this for me?
Or is this something thatI'm doing for the culture?
And by the way, if the answer is theculture, that's not a wrong answer.
(10:20):
That's just an honest answer.
So it all kind of gets to be part ofthe conversation, which is, " we have so
much more information for you nowadaysthan, than I had when I was growing up.
I hope I'm giving you the tools to siftthrough it and navigate it and decide
what serves you and what doesn't.
Because it was just dumpedon me and now I'm still sort
(10:43):
of sorting through the rubble.
But my hope is that I'm giving youenough to question things, right?"
And they're gonna keep questioning things.
This isn't gonna be over with mydaughter's generation, I'm not
even confident that it will beover with her kids' generation
or, or her kid's kids' generation.
But I am hoping that bit by bit, we chipaway at it and continue to normalize
(11:03):
you know, feeling bad doesn't meanyou are bad, that you're allowed to
feel bad, and it is, again, just afeeling that you can move through.
And that all feelings, eventhe good ones pass, right?
Like, that's the conversation that needsto be normalized as opposed to this,
if you don't like it, Fix it, right?
Because then there's this implicationthat if you don't like it, it's
because something's wrong with it,and there is this one way to be,
(11:25):
and so I think, I thinkpart of healing is grieving.
I think that part of this healing processis grieving that you don't look the way
you wanna look or that you're not agingthe way you wanna age, or you know,
your, your teeth aren't what you wantedthem to be, or your stomach doesn't
fall the way you wanted it to fall.
Grieving is a huge part ofmaking peace and moving on to
(11:47):
that next stage of acceptance.
So we have to be thereto let our kids grieve.
We're so afraid of them being sad, butwe need to give them space to grieve.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (11:57):
Mm mm
Val Monroe (11:58):
Mm-hmm.
Debbie Saroufim (11:59):
yeah.
Val Monroe (12:00):
That just reminds me of something that my granddaughter said the
other day when, um, she was telling me astory and I said something like, oh, and
I, I recognized as I was saying this, thatthere was an element of judgment to it.
And I said, oh, honey,that's such a sad story.
And she looked at me andshe said, I can be sad.
I'm like, good for you girl.
(12:20):
. Good for you, baby.
Of course you can
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: That's fantastic. (12:24):
undefined
Yeah, I, I think, you know, the termmedia literacy kind of came up in my mind
as you've both been talking about how weprocess what our culture is feeding us
and how we encourage our children and alsoourselves to work through that messaging.
Because, like you were saying,the feelings of, uh, you know, not
(12:45):
liking your body, that's doesn't meanthat your body doesn't have value.
And it's fine to feel bad, butalso taking that additional step
of thinking through what Val wastouching on, like why do I even feel
bad about my body in the first place?
Like why do I have these feelings?
Who's making me feel sad and inadequate?
And, you know, I too am not totallyconfident that, um, we will live to
(13:09):
see a time when beauty standards areabolished, but I think hopefully we'll
just have stronger individuals whocan make mindful decisions around it
and be able to navigate it better.
That's something I hope for myself.
Debbie Saroufim (13:21):
I mean, yeah, I mean that's the goal, right?
You gotta keep doing it every day cuzthe, the messaging isn't going anywhere.
So there's also, I think, thismyth that if you figure it out, you
just feel good from that point on.
And I wanna just dispel that myth toanybody listening like, uh, I have
plenty of days where I don't feel good.
Um, I'm guessing Val has plenty ofdays where she doesn't feel good.
(13:42):
And I also think I kind of figured outthat, again, not feeling good doesn't
mean there's anything wrong with me.
Right.
Why am I not feeling good?
Oh, I'm not, not feeling good cuzI'm not good, I'm, I'm not feeling
good cuz of this capitalistic societythat has taught me to feel bad.
And so, yeah, just having thatfreedom to know, You're okay.
(14:02):
Um, and just to remind, to remindeverybody out there, because I know that
when you listen to someone talk aboutthis, you're like, man, like she's got it.
She's just this.
And I, I, I just want you toknow like I cry regularly.
I have all the same feelings you have,I just have it much more publicly.
Which creates the illusionof confidence, right?
(14:24):
And that's part of it.
If we talk about the social media,this is a whole separate issue.
We can do another podcastabout it another time.
But like this whole, you know,issue of like what does doing it
publicly create about the illusionof confidence and whatnot around it.
And it's all smoke and mirrors people.
It's all smoke and mirrors.
Val Monroe (14:40):
What?
What is smoke and mirrors, Deb?
Debbie Saroufim (14:43):
SOS is like this idea that it's easy, you know, and
that like anyone has it figuredout and that if you have it figured
out, it's, it looks a certain way.
Cuz again, even with what I post,even with the obnoxious amount of,
vulnerability and regularity thatI post with God again, spends too
much time on special social media.
But like even with that, youstill only get the part of
(15:03):
me that the camera's on for.
You still don't get the moments ofdeliberation or the screaming that
happened moments before, and thenI was like, mommy's making a video.
And then I make a, you know,video where I'm like, hi, and
I've been thinking about this.
So you don't get that, right.
It's always just an image.
And then we carry our own narrative andour own perspective and put it on that.
(15:24):
So, I think it's really easy when you hearsomebody on a podcast giving advice and
talking about, uh, a subject that theyare well informed on and passionate about.
It's easy to take that andspin that narrative and turn it
into why you are not as good.
Um, and so I just kind of wanna say youare as good, again, you don't have to feel
(15:46):
like you are as good as me to be as goodas me, or Val or Cat or any of us, right?
We're.
We're just doing it in a publicsituation, which creates the illusion
of knowledge and confidence, and wehave just as much self-doubt as you.
You're just probably not gonna see it.
Um, and so that's just to sortof normalize all of that, right?
Val Monroe (16:07):
Yeah.
I think that's part of the hell ofsocial media is that it hides all
of the, you know, the vulnerability.
Mostly.
Mostly.
And then, you know, the peoplewho are being vulnerable.
I'm not talking about you, Deb, but, likePaulina, the model, whose last name I
can't pronounce without looking at it.
Um, she ha posted regularly these,these videos of her sobbing, you know,
(16:27):
into her pillow to show her followingthat she was not a perfect person.
And I looked at those andI was like, I'm moving on.
I have no desire to watch somebody,you know, sobbing into her pillow.
That's something, you know, fine ifshe wants to do it, but not for me.
And I just think it points to thedistortion that, so even when you know
you're doing what seems like a positivething, just the fact that you're doing
(16:52):
it performatively, I think is weird.
You know, it just, um, I don't know.
I don't know how, howproductive that is in the end.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (17:01):
Yeah.
That's a, a crazy topic, but theidea how our, everyone has become so
performative because of social mediaand that that's like the baseline of
so many young people's existence ishow do I put this out there in a way
Val Monroe (17:17):
right.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I want to be seen and, yeah. (17:18):
undefined
Val Monroe (17:20):
right?
Debbie Saroufim (17:20):
That's a lot to contend with.
And so then again, just making aspace to normalize the negativity
that, that you'll feel with it.
Cuz again, I think, I mean social mediais also capitalistic driven, right?
And we've all been programmed now toneed it and be addicted to it and need
it for our business and need it toshare our message and all of this stuff.
And yet social mediamakes us feel pretty bad.
(17:43):
And social media is amazing.
Social media is how Ifound both of you, right?
But it's the double-edged sword.
Social media has brought me to someincredible people who I've been able
to really grow and learn and healwith, and it's also been a huge part
of what I'm growing and healing from.
So it's both,
Val Monroe (18:02):
mm-hmm.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (18:03):
do either of you have kind of a parting
thought or quote that you'd liketo leave with the listeners, you
know, as they go off into the world.
Debbie Saroufim (18:13):
I'm gonna highlight the duality of things that we
can feel because, um, and I'lluse Val as my example actually,
and I've said this to her before.
Val is someone that I have alwaysjust admired from the get-go.
and One of the things thatI love about Val is that I
think she, um, challenges me.
(18:34):
She challenges me and I like theway my brain works when she's around.
And the challenge alsofeels scary sometimes.
Like, am I enough?
And that's mine, right?
That, am I enough?
Is mine, but I kind of justwanna say that, I think that
that's what life is, right?
Is the duality of like, Valis someone who, she has been
(18:59):
my role model and mentor.
I've talked to her about how in manyways she's the same age as my mother.
There's a lot of parallels there, and likethe way I connect with her is something
I don't have in that other relationship.
So I def like love is she,you know, I love you Val.
This isn't like awkward oranything, but like Yeah.
Um, and, and all my stuff gets stirred uparound Val and to just sort of say that.
(19:24):
That doesn't negate the love andthat doesn't, you know, the, the
love doesn't undo the fact that allmy stuff gets stirred up around Val.
And so I'm saying it here becauseagain, I think, this is where we
can normalize some of that, right.
? And just sort of hold thatduality at all times and know
that one doesn't negate the other.
That's, there you go,
Val Monroe (19:44):
So actually I, you know what I have to say, you know,
speaking of beauty, that is abeautiful thing that you're doing.
I keep saying, yeah, that's, that's a,that's a really strong feeling, but you
know what has nothing to do with me.
Debbie Saroufim (19:55):
Yeah.
It doesn't, it doesn't haveanything to do with Val.
Um, but that's, that'salso important, right?
Because like, I think we alwaysthink that, that it's about
the other person and it's not
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (20:06):
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Debbie Saroufim (20:07):
it's all about ourselves.
So,
Val Monroe (20:09):
Well, right, okay.
So I found, I found the quote here I go.
I'm gonna read it now.
Real beauty isn't aboutsymmetry or weight or makeup.
It's about looking life rightin the face and seeing all its
magnificence reflected in your own.
That's my parting thought.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (20:25):
mm.
Debbie Saroufim (20:26):
I want, I want that to be my parting thought too.
Can that be, can that
Val Monroe (20:30):
Well, you're welcome to it, you can find it on Good Reads,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (20:36):
uh, well this has been magnificent.
I'm just honored to have held spaceamongst the two of you, so thanks
Val Monroe (20:43):
again.
Fantastic.
Thanks Kat.
It's most wonderful to be with you.
I just loved this chat Ihad with Val and Debbie.
Here are my key takeaways.
Number one.
Embrace and promote media thatfeatures different body types,
genders, races, abilities, et cetera.
(21:06):
I know we've touched on this before,but it's so worth repeating when
we do this, it helps normalize thatthere's not just one way to be or look.
There's not a right wayand the rest are wrong.
You can do this by deliberatelyfollowing certain accounts and having
your daughters follow certain accountson social media, where people look
different and different body types of.
(21:28):
And different types of beauty andbodies, et cetera, are celebrated.
You can also do this by fosteringmedia literacy when watching
a TV show or movie together.
And noting what works andwhat could be improved.
Not necessarily in a judge-y way,like people who like this type
of movie or bad, but maybe makingit about how we know better.
(21:50):
And we know that this may not betrue or the whole truth today.
Number two.
Remember that we're steepedin messaging created by.
Uh, capitalist engine.
And I know that soundsscary, but it's the truth.
Which pressures our girls andus to conform and to consume.
So encourage your daughtersto be aware of it.
(22:10):
Not to make anyone feel bad abouthaving this desire to conform, but
so they can recognize where thatmay come from and build a set of
tools for navigating decisions asthey move forward in their lives.
Number three, normalize andembrace sitting with a variety
of emotions all at the same time.
(22:31):
You can dislike your body.
And that doesn't mean it needschanging and it doesn't mean
that you can't change it.
It's really up to you.
As long as you're thinkingabout what's motivating you and
normalizing the choice that you havein participating in the culture.
This reminds me a little bit of howthe goal of feminism and gender equity
isn't to make all moms go into theworkforce after they have kids or to
(22:55):
make women more like men, or to makeall women climb the corporate ladder.
It's really to give all people morefreedom of choice and the ability
to live authentically withoutbeing treated as less than, or
second class members of society.
Number four also relatingto the duality of emotions.
Feeling bad.
(23:15):
It doesn't mean you are bad.
You are allowed to feel bad andthat passes it's like grief.
And how grief is a step towards healing.
You can feel sad about how yourbody's changing or how you don't
meet certain beauty standards.
And remember that that doesn't meanyou have to change anything or that
there's anything wrong with you.
(23:36):
Number five.
There's a misconception that ifyou figure it out, you'll just
feel good from that point on.
And that's just not the case.
Even if intellectually, you know,what might be driving you to feel
bad about your body or your looks.
This doesn't mean you won't or shouldn'thave any negative thoughts or bad days.
It's an everyday thing.
(23:56):
And we're all in this together,using what we've got to navigate
the ups and downs because themessaging isn't going anywhere.
We'll just need to keep remindingourselves and each other that
we're okay just as we are.
And number six.
As Val said so eloquently.
Real beauty isn't aboutsymmetry or weight or makeup.
(24:18):
It's about looking life rightin the face and seeing all its
magnificence reflected in your own.
To learn more about Debbie Serafin visit.
www.bodyrelationship.com.
And follow her on Instagram atbody relationship underscore coach.
You can also check out her parents'guide for what not to say to your
(24:40):
kids, if you want them to have ahealthy relationship with their bodies
that is linked in the show notes.
Want to feel happier about yourappearance, especially as you age,
you might like reading more aboutwhat Val has to say about it.
. Subscribe for free to how not to F upyour face@valeriemonroedotsubstack.com.
(25:01):
Thanks so much for joining me this week.
I know you have choices and howyou decide to spend your time
and what you decide to listen to.
So I'm honored and gratefulthat you are listening to this.
Again, feel free to follow meon Instagram at @knowberaisethem
check out, knowberaisethem.comfor past episodes, you can leave
me a message or even a voicemail.
(25:22):
And in the next few weeks, I'll be sharingmore information about coaching as well as
a collective for moms who are interestedin learning more, staying in front of
the issues while also becoming informedabout how we can show up for ourselves,
and our kids with intention and grace.
Until then here's to strongwomen, may we know them.
(25:43):
May we be them.
And may we raise them.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.