February 8, 2023 • 26 mins
Body Image is an important topic to me because our relationship with our bodies and our body image is complex, especially for women and girls, and it lasts a lifetime.
The societal challenges to healthy body image don’t stop…and just like any relationship, having a healthy relationship with our bodies typically requires ongoing attention.
My guest today, Pam Luk, is intimately familiar with how the world can make you feel uncomfortable in your skin, and what we can do about it. She’s passionate about body diversity and empowering kids to have a healthy body image.
Listen to hear:
- Why Pam started Ember & Ace
- The importance of clothes and activewear that fits plus sized kids
- How to talk with kids when they're struggling with their bodies
- What to add to your social media feeds
- How we sabotage our efforts to get our kids to believe that all bodies are good bodies
- Media literacy and how to navigate messaging
About Our Guest, Pam Luk
Pam Luk is the founder of Ember & Ace, an athletic wear brand for plus size kids. Growing up playing sports, Pam learned firsthand the importance of finding active wear that fits. Not finding it is one of the main reasons kids quit sports. Ember & Ace launched their first five-piece essentials collection on February 2nd 2023. Visit emberandace.com to learn more.
To learn more about Pam and her work, connect with her here:
- Website: www.emberandace.com
- Instagram: @emberandace
- Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/emberandace
References in this Episode:
- Debbie Saroufim - Ep 37 / Defying Diet Culture and Ep 38 / Tough Truths & Tips
- Emily Lauren Dick - Ep 24 / Body Positivity & Fat Phobia
About Your Host, Carmelita / Cat / Millie Tiu
Mom, spouse, coach, podcaster, wordsmith, legal eagle. Endlessly curious about how we can show up better for ourselves – because when we do that, we also show up better for our kids and those around us. Visit carmelitatiu.com to learn more about Cat, and for info on 1:1 coaching, the mom collective, and her monthly newsletter.
Know Them, Be Them, Raise Them
Love staying informed and inspired? Subscribe here: Apple, Spotify, Google.
Leave a 5-star review by clicking here, tap the white rectangle that says “Listen on Apple Podcasts”, scroll down till you see Ratings & Reviews, then tap 5 stars or “Write a Review”. You’ll forever have...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pam Luk (00:00):
there's a quote that I, I remember reading and
it sort of stuck with me.
I think it's Lily Tomlin,um, the actor and comedian.
She said, you know, I, I saw aproblem one day and I said, somebody
should do something about that.
And then I realized, I'm someone.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Welcome to know them at be them. (00:17):
undefined
Raise them a show to help busy,mindful growth oriented moms.
Stay informed and inspired.
As they navigate theirdaughter's crucial tween.
And teen years, so they canshow up for themselves and their
daughters the way they want to.
I'm your host Carmelita too.
And I am grateful.
You're here.
Remember to follow me.
@knowberaisethem on Instagram or Facebookand check out no B raise them.com.
(00:43):
I actually just included a tab thatincludes information about what I've
been doing on the coaching side.
And there's a link to.
Schedule a complimentary 30 minutecoaching conversation if you'd like.
So if there are things in yourlife you want to accomplish,
whether it's a bucket list goal.
Redefining yourselfafter a life transition.
We're getting clear on how to make theimpact you want to at work or at home.
(01:07):
Let's chat.
If nothing else we'll both leave theconversation with a new connection.
. So if you've been listening tothose podcasts for a while, you
know that I've done past episodeson body image and body positivity.
With Debbie Serafin, for instance, she'sa body relationship coach and Emily Lauren
Dick, a body positivity expert and author.
(01:28):
I'll link to those in the show notes,or you can go to Noby raise them.com and
click on the body image podcast category.
The reason I hit on this topic repeatedly.
And it's so important.
Is because as you know, our relationshipwith our bodies and our body image, Is
complex, especially for women and girls.
And it lasts a lifetime.
(01:50):
The societal challengesto healthy body image.
Don't stop.
And just like any relationship,really having a healthy relationship
with our bodies typicallyrequires ongoing attention.
My guest today pam luck is familiarwith how the world can make you feel
uncomfortable in your skin and whatwe can do about it . She's passionate
(02:11):
about body diversity and empoweringkids to have a healthy body image.
She's also the founder ofEmber and ACE and athletic
wear brand for plus sized kids.
She grew up playing sports andlearned firsthand the importance
of finding active wear that fits.
Not finding it is actually one ofthe main reasons kids quit sports.
Amber and AEs launched theirfirst five-piece essentials
(02:34):
collection on February 2nd, 2023.
Here's our conversation welcome Pam.
I'm super excited to chat with youabout what you do and Ember and Ace and
let's, let's, I guess just jump into it.
Pam Luk (02:53):
Sure thing.
Well, I'll be very formal and introducemyself and say, hi, I'm Pam Luck.
I'm the founder of Ember and Acewhich is, an athletic wear brand
exclusively for plus size kids and.
My story is really what ledme to start Ember & Ace.
I have been plus sized my entire life andI played soccer and I danced as a teenager
(03:14):
and I struggled to find soccer clothing.
I was a goalkeeper, so a goalieshirt and pants that fit me.
I remember in high school having toshop in the men's department to try
and find something that would fit,which is not fun when you're 17, fyi.
And for dance, you know,struggling to find leotards.
And so I have a daughter, a teenagedaughter, and she loves dance and
we're struggling to find leotards.
(03:36):
And so I'm like, it's been 30 yearssince I danced and it's still a problem.
Why is this still a problem?
You know, keeping kids involved inactivities that they love is something
that really matters to me as a parent.
And I'm, so, I'm like,I can help solve this.
This is a problem that I understand.
It's a problem that I'm passionate about.
This is a group of kids that I usedto be, I, I was a plus size kid, so I
(03:58):
said, I can partner with the right kindof folks to help me make this happen.
And so I just decided, and itwas time, let's, let's solve this
problem because it's so solv.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (04:08):
I love that you saw the problem and took
that additional step of makingyourself part of the solution.
Pam Luk (04:17):
Yeah, there's a quote that I, I remember reading
and it sort of stuck with me.
I think it's Lily Tomlin,um, the actor and comedian.
She said, you know, I, I saw aproblem one day and I said, somebody
should do something about that.
And then I realized, I'm someone.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (04:31):
Hmm.
That just gives me little goosebumps.
Um, so I'd love to know yourthoughts on why it's important
for kids to have clothes that fit.
Pam Luk (04:42):
Yeah.
Well, I think any of us can relate to nothaving clothing that fits you well, right.
As you, maybe as your body haschanged and sort of how you feel.
But, you know, I think for meit's one of the reasons kids leave
the activities that they love.
There was a, a qualitative study thatwas done in the UK and just they asked a
bunch of kids and they said, look, the,the uniform doesn't fit and the shirt
(05:03):
rides up and I'm worried that my belly'sgonna show like I want no part of it.
They want no part of it.
And so, A lot of times, and youknow how teenagers can be, they
don't wanna talk to their parents.
So like all of a sudden they're notinterested right in that sport anymore.
They're not interested in danceand you try to get an answer.
But for a lot of these kids, they'lljust quit the things that if the
uniforms don't fit, they'll just quit.
(05:25):
And you know, I remember how much.
. I love dance, and I rememberhow much I, being a part of the
team for the soccer team, that'swhere all my friends were, right?
When we used to go to away games andyou to ride on the bus and all of
the, I feel like, oh, there's a lotof connection, particularly in your
teenage years for doing things likekarate or dance or soccer or basketball,
(05:47):
and even in the summertime, right?
Doing summer recreational programs sothese kids don't get to be part of.
And so they're losing out on theseopportunities to be members of a
team, to be in community with theirkids, and just all the benefits
of physical activity, right?
The mental health benefits, improvingyour sleep, just all of the good
(06:07):
things that come from moving your body.
And now because they can't find theseclothes, they just can't participate.
And I think I remember very distinctlyfeeling like this isn't a place for.
If this was a place for me, theywould have clothing that fit me.
And so it, you start to feel likeyou don't belong in those spaces and
(06:28):
that can be a really tough message.
Particularly you can carrythat into adulthood where
these places aren't for you.
And so I think it's really important.
We have to make it clear that theseactivities are for you and you do belong
in these spaces as young as possible.
And for a lot of kids, they'reoutgrowing clothing when puberty
sort of hits junior high, right?
So to me, it's really important that wetry to catch this as early as possible
(06:51):
and say, you do belong here and it'sokay for you to be in these places and,
and to do these things that you love.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (06:58):
That is so true about the importance of, of
addressing it at a younger age too.
Cuz you think about all the lessons thatyou start to internalize just because
you repeatedly are exposed to them.
Whether it's witnessing your parentsvolunteering, like once you see it over
and over, it becomes ingrained as partof an identity that you can assume or
you can kind of own as like an extensionof your family values and who you are.
(07:23):
And to your point, if you'rerepeatedly seeing, that clothes
don't fit you, then absolutely.
I can see how that can become, um,like a negative thought that just
starts coming back over and over and,and could even I would imagine, affect
kids to where it, it could extend evenbeyond a particular activity, but not
(07:46):
just, I don't belong in this activity,but I don't belong in this space.
I don't know if I belong inthis class, in this world.
You know?
And the, that negative spiral of, um,feeling excluded could be potentially
really painful, I would think.
Pam Luk (08:02):
Yeah, for sure.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (08:03):
Well, having been through a lot of these experiences
yourself and now in the stages ofiterating a product for, plus size kids,
what, what would you say are some tipsfor parents that, that have kids who
feel uncomfortable in their bodies?
Like are there things that, we couldsay, or potentially things we should do?
Pam Luk (08:26):
Sure.
Um, I will say definitely start withmaking sure that they have clothing
that fits and I, I mean that, youknow, sometimes you feel uncomfortable
in your body because maybe you'vegrown from spring to fall, right?
And so you're trying on some of the thingsthat used to work and they don't feel
comfortable anymore, and so sometimesyou, you have to realize the problem
(08:46):
isn't your body, it's the clothing.
So trying to address and get a fewpieces, and I know it's tough, kids grow
so fast, but having a few pieces thatfit really well that they feel confident
and comfortable in, So really, andsome kids are great about saying, Hey,
these don't fit really well anymore.
They don't work for my bodyanymore, and some kids don't.
So trying to just tune in and,and check on things like that.
But I would also say first and for.
(09:07):
Don't panic that you'regonna get it wrong.
It's okay to sort of fumble throughit a little bit, but always start,
I think, by just acknowledgingsort of what they're saying.
I think there's always this rushto be like, no, you're okay.
It's okay.
And you move right past.
Maybe the emotional, like, let's justwork through how this feels for you, um,
and try to get a handle on, I understandthat you're struggling, I'm struggling
(09:28):
with, with your body and some of thechanges and how you feel in your body
and maybe how it looks relative tosome of the other kids in your class.
And sort of just trying to ask questionsI think is also a big piece of this.
Trying to not put words in theirmouth per se, but sort of tease out a
little bit, sort of what's going on.
(09:49):
Um, and try to listen more than talk.
And I know it's hard.
I I have a teenager.
Single word answers.
Yes, I understand.
But I think sometimes what ends uphappening in my house is I'll raise
something, we'll talk about something.
It'll be a really brief conversationbecause what she's doing is sort of
marinating and working through that.
(10:10):
And so that same conversationwill come back around.
So I guess that's the other piece.
Don't feel like you have to getit all handled in a single talk.
And this is also gonna besomething, um, that comes.
a lot as bodies just continue to changefor your entire life and through the
rest of your junior high and high school.
Um, and I would also say let's, yes,we can talk about the things that
(10:31):
are challenging, but let's also talkabout like what are you excited about?
What makes you feel strong in your body?
What makes you feel good in your body?
And can we find a wayto maybe bring more of.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (10:42):
mm.
Pam Luk (10:43):
would say the same for me if I'm struggling with something like, what can
I do that makes me feel strong or makesme feel grounded or makes me feel good?
And let's try to do some of that in sortof, yes, absolutely working through some
of the tough feelings about maybe what'sgoing on, but also let's talk about the
things that my body does really well.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (11:00):
Yes.
Yeah.
And, and I love that it's, it'sfocused on kind of the doing of it.
Um, I had an interview with a,um, she runs a, a group called
Body Confident Moms in Australia.
in any event.
she really emphasizes when you're dealingwith tweens and teens and there's that
(11:21):
dip in confidence inevitably, especiallyfor girls, to really look at your body as
as a tool and not as an ornament.
So exactly what you were saying, lookingat what, what am I really excited about,
what my body can do, how, what canmy body do that makes me feel proud?
you know, removing your value from, thelooks can be really, really empowering.
Pam Luk (11:47):
and I, I think an another piece of the puzzle that's sort of
along that line is, Social media.
I mean, I know we all have a lot of goodand bad feelings about social media,
particularly when it comes to our kids,but I think we can find a way, again,
to try and pull out some of the positivecomponents of having social media access.
And one of those things istry to diversify the kinds of
(12:10):
bodies you see in your feed.
There are a ton of plus size athletesthat do basically every single
sport you can possibly think of.
I follow surfers, bikers, hikers,dancers, marathon runners, I mean the
list basketball players, , the, thelist goes on and on, and so, You can
find people that have bigger bodies andthat do the kinds of activities maybe
(12:34):
that you enjoy, and seeing people beingsuccessful and having fun and getting
out and doing the things that they love.
So I feel like to see your body is sortof this tool to, to do these things,
it helps you to see others doing thesethings, and particularly others in bodies
that look more like yours than maybe whatyou would traditionally see in most media
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (12:53):
Hmm.
I could not agree more that the absenceof representation can really skew
someone's understanding of what's possibleand what's healthy and what's normal.
Like I, I was a kid in the eightiesand, and there was a very specific
type of model you saw in advertisementsand catalogs, and I'm so grateful
(13:15):
that we've evolved somewhat.
Um, but obviously there's room formore growth and hence em Reneece.
Pam Luk (13:23):
Yeah, and I would say the one final thing I want folks to sort of
try to take away as they're thinkingabout conversations and things that
they have with their kids about bodiesand modeling the kinds of behavior.
This goes back to what youwere talking about, right?
About what your kids see you doingand saying, we all as adults have
to stop talking about individualbodies, including our own,
(13:45):
particularly in a negative way.
And I think.
That's tough for a lot of people, but Ithink it's a really good place to start
is to try and really catch yourselfyou're making just a off the cuff remark,
right , and so how are you talking aboutyour own body in front of your children?
How are you talking aboutother bodies', celebrities?
(14:07):
People at your high schoolreunion coworkers, right?
How are you talking about their bodies?
And your kids are sortof hearing all that.
And, and so if in one breath you're sayingall bodies are good bodies and they do
amazing things, but then they hear youtalking about, Ugh, I put on 15 pounds.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:25):
right?
Yeah.
Pam Luk (14:27):
It's sort of unravels, right?
They're hearing . That's avery two different messages.
So which one is it?
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:34):
Mm-hmm.
. Mm-hmm.
Pam Luk (14:35):
So I know it's hard, and particularly we in the United States are
bombarded and surrounded by diet culture.
It's billion dollar industry.
But that's a small step.
If folks are like, okay,that's, I'm trying.
Tell me how, what's one thing I can do?
And one thing you can do is be mindfulabout how you talk about your own body
in front of your, in front of your kids.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:56):
Hmm.
You know, it's funny, I, what yousaid just brought up for me this
idea that somewhere along theway in, in parenting daughters and
them, I, learned that we shouldn.
Comment on how pretty a girl is or the,you know, because they might think that
that's the primary source of value andthen become, you know, obsessed with that.
(15:18):
I do have to say though that I'verecently started to question that
and kind of, challenge it a littlebit when you have girls as daughters
or there are girls in your sphere ofinfluence that do not fit a standard
of beauty that diet culture embraces.
um, or not even diet culture,but I'd say mainstream media
(15:39):
hasn't been as quick to embrace.
So whether it's, you know, differentphysical abilities or different sizes
or, um, skin tones, I, I kind of feellike if you're dealing with kids that
are outside of, this western ideal ofbeauty then have at it, like compliment
them left and right because they'renot gonna get it from the outside world
(16:01):
or from the media for the most part.
Maybe things change, but you know,the, the messaging so far outweighs
to the, to the negative in a way.
that hearing some positive reinforcementfrom you that they're okay and their
body is beautiful to me, feels.
. It feels like they need that.
Otherwise, the only input they're gettingis that they don't see anyone like
(16:24):
them in this setting or that setting.
that just came up for me relativelyrecently, but how do you feel about that?
Pam Luk (16:30):
I think as an, there is no, there's no black and white here.
It's always gonna be, I think it'slike in all things parenting, right?
when are there times whenthat needs to come up?
And then when are there times whenyou're also focused on other things?
And I think the flip side of that coin isalso, Starting as kids get older to start
(16:51):
to understand who benefits from makingyou feel poorly about what you look like,
who benefits from feeding you a certainstory about eye shape or skin color or
body size, who benefits from those things.
And then sort of talking about themessaging that we're getting, and so
not seeing those things as truth, butunderstanding what the message is that
(17:14):
they're sort of receiving and also,so they're defining beauty one way.
Why would they wanna do that?
What are they trying to.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (17:21):
Mm-hmm.
Pam Luk (17:22):
What's the benefit they're looking for, but also how do you
see, and then asking, asking yourown child what's beautiful to you.
What, what do you see as beautiful?
What, you know what I mean?
So trying to even just, yes,and it, I would say yes.
I think it can be challenging to nothear that your body is beautiful,
particularly if you struggle withyour size, but also trying to just
(17:43):
broaden and talk about other things andbeauty in a different way, I guess as
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (17:48):
Hmm.
Pam Luk (17:49):
at the same.
Um, because I do think to your point,particularly girls, so much value is
tied into physical aesthetic and just allthe things that to some degree you don't
have a tremendous amount of control over.
And that's gonna obviouslychange over time.
Right?
As you age suddenly your valuediminishes what is happening?
(18:09):
I don't know.
No, that's not, that is not the case.
So
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (18:13):
Right.
you know, something that, I noticedwhen you talk about Ember and Ace
and , the population that it serves,you use the term plus size kids
I'm curious what your thoughtsare on that and you know, are
there nuances we should consider?
Pam Luk (18:30):
I think there are, I will start by saying I have reclaimed
the word fat, so I do invite peopleto use the word fat to describe me
when you're talking about my body.
Because there is a, an effort to sortof take that word and actually use it
in a way that it was intended to beused, which is a descriptor of a body
that has more fat than another, right?
You have a thin body that has less fat,you have a fat body that has more fat, and
(18:52):
sort of, that's where the definition ends.
And I think, the challenge isaround, there is still, there
are those two things I would say.
First that word is still used andhas historically been used to try
and harm people in bigger bodies.
Um, and they do that byattaching other attributes.
(19:15):
Other fat didn't just meanbigger body, it means lazy.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (19:21):
Hmm.
Pam Luk (19:22):
uneducated because obviously if you were smart and not lazy
right, you wouldn't be fat anymore.
So they've, all these other things havebeen sort of wrapped up in that word and
used to try and inflict harm on people.
And so I think for a lot of peoplethat are fat, it's very difficult
still to sort of hear that word.
And there are still people thatuse it in that way to inflict harm.
(19:43):
And so there are folks that don't useit, and I completely understand that.
And.
of my reason behind choosing to doplus size kids as the term that I
use for these kids was because I feellike it's a word that you have to make
a choice for yourself to use and tothen share with others that they're
allowed to use it with you as well.
But it starts with you makingthat choice for yourself.
(20:05):
And I didn't wanna sort of forcethat word onto these kids who are
already sort of struggling during adifficult time to sort of navigate all
the things going on with their body.
And I will say this, I do know thata lot of parents, particularly with
younger children, are talking about fatand thin in that very like the way we
wanna be using it, right as a descriptor.
And that's where we startmoving the needle, right?
(20:27):
And starting to make a change.
And I think the, they're just,it's again, a yes and yes, do that,
but also say people use that wordto try and hurt people, and some
people are not comfortable with it.
So, you know, just being mindfulof the conversations that you're
having and how you're using that word
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (20:44):
Yeah.
Hmm.
Pam Luk (20:45):
And I would say there are some people that also don't wanna call
out plus sizes being different from,you know, standard size or thin kids.
But part of why I think it'simportant is because these kids
can't find clothing, right?
, I need folks to be able to find theclothes that are gonna fit their kids.
So that's part of, you know, thereare brands that are working toward
it and maybe that's something we can,you know, hope for, for the future.
(21:07):
But until that day comes, I wantthese kids to know that I'm here
to serve you and I am makingthings specifically for your body.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (21:14):
I love that.
Yeah.
And, you've put a lot of thought intohow you can best serve your audience and,
and so the choice of terminology, um,I really respect how you approach that.
It makes a lot of sense to me.
Pam Luk (21:29):
Thank you.
There's a little teenager insideof me that's sort of running
that whole making process.
I think, you know, and that's where,you know, this being something
that's so close to my heart becauseof my daughter, but also because
I grew up as one of these kids.
I understand to some degree, and it'snot that it's the same experience for
everyone, but I think there's commonthemes that, you know, come up for just
(21:50):
the things that we all want for our kids
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (21:52):
Yeah.
Oh, as we wrap up, I was wonderingif you'd like to leave the audience
with a parting quote or, or thought.
Pam Luk (22:02):
I have a quote that I use that I try to put on my website and
on my social media, and that is this.
An athlete isn't defined by theirsize, and you can be a runner.
A biker, a biker a dancer.
You can be all thesethings regardless of size.
So I think it's important that peoplestart to hear that and internalize it.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (22:22):
Oh, I just got the chills because that was never
a message that I heard growing up,And so I am, I'm happy to support that
message through this platform as well.
Pam Luk (22:34):
I appreciate it and thank you so much for letting me come
and talk about this and I hopeyou know if folks have questions.
. You know, please let me know, but I,I'm hopeful that they'll think about
what they've heard today, even if it'snot something that they've necessarily
given a lot of thought to, or ifit's, they've had different ideas
about bigger bodies and people thatare plus sized, but I'm hopeful that
they'll just sort of take it all in.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (23:01):
I have to admit one of my favorite
things about interviewing guestsis when I'm forced to confront my
own biases and areas for growth.
I never thought about the ripple effectof not having athletic clothes that fit.
How that messages to kids and adults.
That this activity isn't for you.
This was a sobering reminder of howbias and privilege work, where I
(23:24):
didn't even really see how structuresmight exclude others because they
didn't create friction for me.
Any who.
It makes me want to try and seebetter to have fewer blind spots
so I can be more inclusive.
So here are today's key takeawaysfrom my conversation with Pam.
Number one.
As early as possible, we have tomake spaces and activities for
(23:47):
kids as inclusive as possible.
By giving kids and teens accessto active wear that fits them.
We're telling them that they belong.
It's okay for them to be in these places.
And you.
You can do these things that you love.
Number two, help your daughtersfind clothes that fit.
If they don't feel comfortable in clothes.
They may think it's a problem with theirbodies when it's actually fixable by
(24:11):
getting them better fitting clothing.
Side note.
I had to check myselfa couple of years ago.
When my daughter was asking fornew pants again and saying she
didn't like the clothes I boughther three to four months earlier.
My knee jerk reaction was to thinkthat she was being fickle and was
falling prey to a consumerism.
But when she tried her pants on, theywere short and the waist was really tight.
(24:33):
So, yeah.
Um, that was a lesson tome to be open to dialogue.
Don't assume, you know what's going on.
Um, especially when thinkingabout clothing and your girls
and what works best for them.
Number three, listen to your daughterwhen she's grappling with her body image.
Remind her that even if she's strugglingwith a growing or changing body,
(24:53):
It's still a good and valuable body.
Ask her.
What makes you feel strong in your body?
What makes you feel good in your body?
Encourage her to.
To think of her body asa tool, not an ornament.
Number four.
Diversify the kinds of bodies yousee in your social media feeds,
there are different accountsthat feature bodies of all sizes.
(25:13):
So challenge your ownunconscious biases by.
Widening your lens.
Number five, stop talking about howindividual bodies look including your own.
Catch yourself.
If you're making comments.
And number six.
Encourage your kids to be media literate.
When you see advertising.
I help them question.
(25:34):
Who's benefiting from this.
What message are they sending?
What are they trying to accomplish?
Media literacy, encouragescritical thinking.
It helps kids see how media affects ourculture and it teaches them how not to
be swayed by persuasive techniques thatadvertising and influencers might use.
To learn more about Ember and ACE andtheir athletic wear for plus sized kids.
(25:58):
Visit Ember and ace.com.
That's E M B E R a N D a C e.com.
The five-piece essential.
His collection is available now.
Thanks so much for listening and ifyou haven't done so already follow
on your favorite podcasting platform.
Tell a friend about theshow and leave a review.
(26:19):
Also visit knowberaisethem.com.
And follow me on Instagram@knowberaisethem.
I hope you have a wonderfulweek and here's to strong women.
May we know them?
May we be them?
And may we raise them?
there's a quote that I, I remember reading and
it sort of stuck with me.
I think it's Lily Tomlin,um, the actor and comedian.
She said, you know, I, I saw aproblem one day and I said, somebody
should do something about that.
And then I realized, I'm someone.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Welcome to know them at be them. (00:17):
undefined
Raise them a show to help busy,mindful growth oriented moms.
Stay informed and inspired.
As they navigate theirdaughter's crucial tween.
And teen years, so they canshow up for themselves and their
daughters the way they want to.
I'm your host Carmelita too.
And I am grateful.
You're here.
Remember to follow me.
@knowberaisethem on Instagram or Facebookand check out no B raise them.com.
(00:43):
I actually just included a tab thatincludes information about what I've
been doing on the coaching side.
And there's a link to.
Schedule a complimentary 30 minutecoaching conversation if you'd like.
So if there are things in yourlife you want to accomplish,
whether it's a bucket list goal.
Redefining yourselfafter a life transition.
We're getting clear on how to make theimpact you want to at work or at home.
(01:07):
Let's chat.
If nothing else we'll both leave theconversation with a new connection.
. So if you've been listening tothose podcasts for a while, you
know that I've done past episodeson body image and body positivity.
With Debbie Serafin, for instance, she'sa body relationship coach and Emily Lauren
Dick, a body positivity expert and author.
(01:28):
I'll link to those in the show notes,or you can go to Noby raise them.com and
click on the body image podcast category.
The reason I hit on this topic repeatedly.
And it's so important.
Is because as you know, our relationshipwith our bodies and our body image, Is
complex, especially for women and girls.
And it lasts a lifetime.
(01:50):
The societal challengesto healthy body image.
Don't stop.
And just like any relationship,really having a healthy relationship
with our bodies typicallyrequires ongoing attention.
My guest today pam luck is familiarwith how the world can make you feel
uncomfortable in your skin and whatwe can do about it . She's passionate
(02:11):
about body diversity and empoweringkids to have a healthy body image.
She's also the founder ofEmber and ACE and athletic
wear brand for plus sized kids.
She grew up playing sports andlearned firsthand the importance
of finding active wear that fits.
Not finding it is actually one ofthe main reasons kids quit sports.
Amber and AEs launched theirfirst five-piece essentials
(02:34):
collection on February 2nd, 2023.
Here's our conversation welcome Pam.
I'm super excited to chat with youabout what you do and Ember and Ace and
let's, let's, I guess just jump into it.
Pam Luk (02:53):
Sure thing.
Well, I'll be very formal and introducemyself and say, hi, I'm Pam Luck.
I'm the founder of Ember and Acewhich is, an athletic wear brand
exclusively for plus size kids and.
My story is really what ledme to start Ember & Ace.
I have been plus sized my entire life andI played soccer and I danced as a teenager
(03:14):
and I struggled to find soccer clothing.
I was a goalkeeper, so a goalieshirt and pants that fit me.
I remember in high school having toshop in the men's department to try
and find something that would fit,which is not fun when you're 17, fyi.
And for dance, you know,struggling to find leotards.
And so I have a daughter, a teenagedaughter, and she loves dance and
we're struggling to find leotards.
(03:36):
And so I'm like, it's been 30 yearssince I danced and it's still a problem.
Why is this still a problem?
You know, keeping kids involved inactivities that they love is something
that really matters to me as a parent.
And I'm, so, I'm like,I can help solve this.
This is a problem that I understand.
It's a problem that I'm passionate about.
This is a group of kids that I usedto be, I, I was a plus size kid, so I
(03:58):
said, I can partner with the right kindof folks to help me make this happen.
And so I just decided, and itwas time, let's, let's solve this
problem because it's so solv.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (04:08):
I love that you saw the problem and took
that additional step of makingyourself part of the solution.
Pam Luk (04:17):
Yeah, there's a quote that I, I remember reading
and it sort of stuck with me.
I think it's Lily Tomlin,um, the actor and comedian.
She said, you know, I, I saw aproblem one day and I said, somebody
should do something about that.
And then I realized, I'm someone.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (04:31):
Hmm.
That just gives me little goosebumps.
Um, so I'd love to know yourthoughts on why it's important
for kids to have clothes that fit.
Pam Luk (04:42):
Yeah.
Well, I think any of us can relate to nothaving clothing that fits you well, right.
As you, maybe as your body haschanged and sort of how you feel.
But, you know, I think for meit's one of the reasons kids leave
the activities that they love.
There was a, a qualitative study thatwas done in the UK and just they asked a
bunch of kids and they said, look, the,the uniform doesn't fit and the shirt
(05:03):
rides up and I'm worried that my belly'sgonna show like I want no part of it.
They want no part of it.
And so, A lot of times, and youknow how teenagers can be, they
don't wanna talk to their parents.
So like all of a sudden they're notinterested right in that sport anymore.
They're not interested in danceand you try to get an answer.
But for a lot of these kids, they'lljust quit the things that if the
uniforms don't fit, they'll just quit.
(05:25):
And you know, I remember how much.
. I love dance, and I rememberhow much I, being a part of the
team for the soccer team, that'swhere all my friends were, right?
When we used to go to away games andyou to ride on the bus and all of
the, I feel like, oh, there's a lotof connection, particularly in your
teenage years for doing things likekarate or dance or soccer or basketball,
(05:47):
and even in the summertime, right?
Doing summer recreational programs sothese kids don't get to be part of.
And so they're losing out on theseopportunities to be members of a
team, to be in community with theirkids, and just all the benefits
of physical activity, right?
The mental health benefits, improvingyour sleep, just all of the good
(06:07):
things that come from moving your body.
And now because they can't find theseclothes, they just can't participate.
And I think I remember very distinctlyfeeling like this isn't a place for.
If this was a place for me, theywould have clothing that fit me.
And so it, you start to feel likeyou don't belong in those spaces and
(06:28):
that can be a really tough message.
Particularly you can carrythat into adulthood where
these places aren't for you.
And so I think it's really important.
We have to make it clear that theseactivities are for you and you do belong
in these spaces as young as possible.
And for a lot of kids, they'reoutgrowing clothing when puberty
sort of hits junior high, right?
So to me, it's really important that wetry to catch this as early as possible
(06:51):
and say, you do belong here and it'sokay for you to be in these places and,
and to do these things that you love.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (06:58):
That is so true about the importance of, of
addressing it at a younger age too.
Cuz you think about all the lessons thatyou start to internalize just because
you repeatedly are exposed to them.
Whether it's witnessing your parentsvolunteering, like once you see it over
and over, it becomes ingrained as partof an identity that you can assume or
you can kind of own as like an extensionof your family values and who you are.
(07:23):
And to your point, if you'rerepeatedly seeing, that clothes
don't fit you, then absolutely.
I can see how that can become, um,like a negative thought that just
starts coming back over and over and,and could even I would imagine, affect
kids to where it, it could extend evenbeyond a particular activity, but not
(07:46):
just, I don't belong in this activity,but I don't belong in this space.
I don't know if I belong inthis class, in this world.
You know?
And the, that negative spiral of, um,feeling excluded could be potentially
really painful, I would think.
Pam Luk (08:02):
Yeah, for sure.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (08:03):
Well, having been through a lot of these experiences
yourself and now in the stages ofiterating a product for, plus size kids,
what, what would you say are some tipsfor parents that, that have kids who
feel uncomfortable in their bodies?
Like are there things that, we couldsay, or potentially things we should do?
Pam Luk (08:26):
Sure.
Um, I will say definitely start withmaking sure that they have clothing
that fits and I, I mean that, youknow, sometimes you feel uncomfortable
in your body because maybe you'vegrown from spring to fall, right?
And so you're trying on some of the thingsthat used to work and they don't feel
comfortable anymore, and so sometimesyou, you have to realize the problem
(08:46):
isn't your body, it's the clothing.
So trying to address and get a fewpieces, and I know it's tough, kids grow
so fast, but having a few pieces thatfit really well that they feel confident
and comfortable in, So really, andsome kids are great about saying, Hey,
these don't fit really well anymore.
They don't work for my bodyanymore, and some kids don't.
So trying to just tune in and,and check on things like that.
But I would also say first and for.
(09:07):
Don't panic that you'regonna get it wrong.
It's okay to sort of fumble throughit a little bit, but always start,
I think, by just acknowledgingsort of what they're saying.
I think there's always this rushto be like, no, you're okay.
It's okay.
And you move right past.
Maybe the emotional, like, let's justwork through how this feels for you, um,
and try to get a handle on, I understandthat you're struggling, I'm struggling
(09:28):
with, with your body and some of thechanges and how you feel in your body
and maybe how it looks relative tosome of the other kids in your class.
And sort of just trying to ask questionsI think is also a big piece of this.
Trying to not put words in theirmouth per se, but sort of tease out a
little bit, sort of what's going on.
(09:49):
Um, and try to listen more than talk.
And I know it's hard.
I I have a teenager.
Single word answers.
Yes, I understand.
But I think sometimes what ends uphappening in my house is I'll raise
something, we'll talk about something.
It'll be a really brief conversationbecause what she's doing is sort of
marinating and working through that.
(10:10):
And so that same conversationwill come back around.
So I guess that's the other piece.
Don't feel like you have to getit all handled in a single talk.
And this is also gonna besomething, um, that comes.
a lot as bodies just continue to changefor your entire life and through the
rest of your junior high and high school.
Um, and I would also say let's, yes,we can talk about the things that
(10:31):
are challenging, but let's also talkabout like what are you excited about?
What makes you feel strong in your body?
What makes you feel good in your body?
And can we find a wayto maybe bring more of.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (10:42):
mm.
Pam Luk (10:43):
would say the same for me if I'm struggling with something like, what can
I do that makes me feel strong or makesme feel grounded or makes me feel good?
And let's try to do some of that in sortof, yes, absolutely working through some
of the tough feelings about maybe what'sgoing on, but also let's talk about the
things that my body does really well.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (11:00):
Yes.
Yeah.
And, and I love that it's, it'sfocused on kind of the doing of it.
Um, I had an interview with a,um, she runs a, a group called
Body Confident Moms in Australia.
in any event.
she really emphasizes when you're dealingwith tweens and teens and there's that
(11:21):
dip in confidence inevitably, especiallyfor girls, to really look at your body as
as a tool and not as an ornament.
So exactly what you were saying, lookingat what, what am I really excited about,
what my body can do, how, what canmy body do that makes me feel proud?
you know, removing your value from, thelooks can be really, really empowering.
Pam Luk (11:47):
and I, I think an another piece of the puzzle that's sort of
along that line is, Social media.
I mean, I know we all have a lot of goodand bad feelings about social media,
particularly when it comes to our kids,but I think we can find a way, again,
to try and pull out some of the positivecomponents of having social media access.
And one of those things istry to diversify the kinds of
(12:10):
bodies you see in your feed.
There are a ton of plus size athletesthat do basically every single
sport you can possibly think of.
I follow surfers, bikers, hikers,dancers, marathon runners, I mean the
list basketball players, , the, thelist goes on and on, and so, You can
find people that have bigger bodies andthat do the kinds of activities maybe
(12:34):
that you enjoy, and seeing people beingsuccessful and having fun and getting
out and doing the things that they love.
So I feel like to see your body is sortof this tool to, to do these things,
it helps you to see others doing thesethings, and particularly others in bodies
that look more like yours than maybe whatyou would traditionally see in most media
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (12:53):
Hmm.
I could not agree more that the absenceof representation can really skew
someone's understanding of what's possibleand what's healthy and what's normal.
Like I, I was a kid in the eightiesand, and there was a very specific
type of model you saw in advertisementsand catalogs, and I'm so grateful
(13:15):
that we've evolved somewhat.
Um, but obviously there's room formore growth and hence em Reneece.
Pam Luk (13:23):
Yeah, and I would say the one final thing I want folks to sort of
try to take away as they're thinkingabout conversations and things that
they have with their kids about bodiesand modeling the kinds of behavior.
This goes back to what youwere talking about, right?
About what your kids see you doingand saying, we all as adults have
to stop talking about individualbodies, including our own,
(13:45):
particularly in a negative way.
And I think.
That's tough for a lot of people, but Ithink it's a really good place to start
is to try and really catch yourselfyou're making just a off the cuff remark,
right , and so how are you talking aboutyour own body in front of your children?
How are you talking aboutother bodies', celebrities?
(14:07):
People at your high schoolreunion coworkers, right?
How are you talking about their bodies?
And your kids are sortof hearing all that.
And, and so if in one breath you're sayingall bodies are good bodies and they do
amazing things, but then they hear youtalking about, Ugh, I put on 15 pounds.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:25):
right?
Yeah.
Pam Luk (14:27):
It's sort of unravels, right?
They're hearing . That's avery two different messages.
So which one is it?
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:34):
Mm-hmm.
. Mm-hmm.
Pam Luk (14:35):
So I know it's hard, and particularly we in the United States are
bombarded and surrounded by diet culture.
It's billion dollar industry.
But that's a small step.
If folks are like, okay,that's, I'm trying.
Tell me how, what's one thing I can do?
And one thing you can do is be mindfulabout how you talk about your own body
in front of your, in front of your kids.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:56):
Hmm.
You know, it's funny, I, what yousaid just brought up for me this
idea that somewhere along theway in, in parenting daughters and
them, I, learned that we shouldn.
Comment on how pretty a girl is or the,you know, because they might think that
that's the primary source of value andthen become, you know, obsessed with that.
(15:18):
I do have to say though that I'verecently started to question that
and kind of, challenge it a littlebit when you have girls as daughters
or there are girls in your sphere ofinfluence that do not fit a standard
of beauty that diet culture embraces.
um, or not even diet culture,but I'd say mainstream media
(15:39):
hasn't been as quick to embrace.
So whether it's, you know, differentphysical abilities or different sizes
or, um, skin tones, I, I kind of feellike if you're dealing with kids that
are outside of, this western ideal ofbeauty then have at it, like compliment
them left and right because they'renot gonna get it from the outside world
(16:01):
or from the media for the most part.
Maybe things change, but you know,the, the messaging so far outweighs
to the, to the negative in a way.
that hearing some positive reinforcementfrom you that they're okay and their
body is beautiful to me, feels.
. It feels like they need that.
Otherwise, the only input they're gettingis that they don't see anyone like
(16:24):
them in this setting or that setting.
that just came up for me relativelyrecently, but how do you feel about that?
Pam Luk (16:30):
I think as an, there is no, there's no black and white here.
It's always gonna be, I think it'slike in all things parenting, right?
when are there times whenthat needs to come up?
And then when are there times whenyou're also focused on other things?
And I think the flip side of that coin isalso, Starting as kids get older to start
(16:51):
to understand who benefits from makingyou feel poorly about what you look like,
who benefits from feeding you a certainstory about eye shape or skin color or
body size, who benefits from those things.
And then sort of talking about themessaging that we're getting, and so
not seeing those things as truth, butunderstanding what the message is that
(17:14):
they're sort of receiving and also,so they're defining beauty one way.
Why would they wanna do that?
What are they trying to.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (17:21):
Mm-hmm.
Pam Luk (17:22):
What's the benefit they're looking for, but also how do you
see, and then asking, asking yourown child what's beautiful to you.
What, what do you see as beautiful?
What, you know what I mean?
So trying to even just, yes,and it, I would say yes.
I think it can be challenging to nothear that your body is beautiful,
particularly if you struggle withyour size, but also trying to just
(17:43):
broaden and talk about other things andbeauty in a different way, I guess as
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (17:48):
Hmm.
Pam Luk (17:49):
at the same.
Um, because I do think to your point,particularly girls, so much value is
tied into physical aesthetic and just allthe things that to some degree you don't
have a tremendous amount of control over.
And that's gonna obviouslychange over time.
Right?
As you age suddenly your valuediminishes what is happening?
(18:09):
I don't know.
No, that's not, that is not the case.
So
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (18:13):
Right.
you know, something that, I noticedwhen you talk about Ember and Ace
and , the population that it serves,you use the term plus size kids
I'm curious what your thoughtsare on that and you know, are
there nuances we should consider?
Pam Luk (18:30):
I think there are, I will start by saying I have reclaimed
the word fat, so I do invite peopleto use the word fat to describe me
when you're talking about my body.
Because there is a, an effort to sortof take that word and actually use it
in a way that it was intended to beused, which is a descriptor of a body
that has more fat than another, right?
You have a thin body that has less fat,you have a fat body that has more fat, and
(18:52):
sort of, that's where the definition ends.
And I think, the challenge isaround, there is still, there
are those two things I would say.
First that word is still used andhas historically been used to try
and harm people in bigger bodies.
Um, and they do that byattaching other attributes.
(19:15):
Other fat didn't just meanbigger body, it means lazy.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (19:21):
Hmm.
Pam Luk (19:22):
uneducated because obviously if you were smart and not lazy
right, you wouldn't be fat anymore.
So they've, all these other things havebeen sort of wrapped up in that word and
used to try and inflict harm on people.
And so I think for a lot of peoplethat are fat, it's very difficult
still to sort of hear that word.
And there are still people thatuse it in that way to inflict harm.
(19:43):
And so there are folks that don't useit, and I completely understand that.
And.
of my reason behind choosing to doplus size kids as the term that I
use for these kids was because I feellike it's a word that you have to make
a choice for yourself to use and tothen share with others that they're
allowed to use it with you as well.
But it starts with you makingthat choice for yourself.
(20:05):
And I didn't wanna sort of forcethat word onto these kids who are
already sort of struggling during adifficult time to sort of navigate all
the things going on with their body.
And I will say this, I do know thata lot of parents, particularly with
younger children, are talking about fatand thin in that very like the way we
wanna be using it, right as a descriptor.
And that's where we startmoving the needle, right?
(20:27):
And starting to make a change.
And I think the, they're just,it's again, a yes and yes, do that,
but also say people use that wordto try and hurt people, and some
people are not comfortable with it.
So, you know, just being mindfulof the conversations that you're
having and how you're using that word
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (20:44):
Yeah.
Hmm.
Pam Luk (20:45):
And I would say there are some people that also don't wanna call
out plus sizes being different from,you know, standard size or thin kids.
But part of why I think it'simportant is because these kids
can't find clothing, right?
, I need folks to be able to find theclothes that are gonna fit their kids.
So that's part of, you know, thereare brands that are working toward
it and maybe that's something we can,you know, hope for, for the future.
(21:07):
But until that day comes, I wantthese kids to know that I'm here
to serve you and I am makingthings specifically for your body.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (21:14):
I love that.
Yeah.
And, you've put a lot of thought intohow you can best serve your audience and,
and so the choice of terminology, um,I really respect how you approach that.
It makes a lot of sense to me.
Pam Luk (21:29):
Thank you.
There's a little teenager insideof me that's sort of running
that whole making process.
I think, you know, and that's where,you know, this being something
that's so close to my heart becauseof my daughter, but also because
I grew up as one of these kids.
I understand to some degree, and it'snot that it's the same experience for
everyone, but I think there's commonthemes that, you know, come up for just
(21:50):
the things that we all want for our kids
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (21:52):
Yeah.
Oh, as we wrap up, I was wonderingif you'd like to leave the audience
with a parting quote or, or thought.
Pam Luk (22:02):
I have a quote that I use that I try to put on my website and
on my social media, and that is this.
An athlete isn't defined by theirsize, and you can be a runner.
A biker, a biker a dancer.
You can be all thesethings regardless of size.
So I think it's important that peoplestart to hear that and internalize it.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (22:22):
Oh, I just got the chills because that was never
a message that I heard growing up,And so I am, I'm happy to support that
message through this platform as well.
Pam Luk (22:34):
I appreciate it and thank you so much for letting me come
and talk about this and I hopeyou know if folks have questions.
. You know, please let me know, but I,I'm hopeful that they'll think about
what they've heard today, even if it'snot something that they've necessarily
given a lot of thought to, or ifit's, they've had different ideas
about bigger bodies and people thatare plus sized, but I'm hopeful that
they'll just sort of take it all in.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (23:01):
I have to admit one of my favorite
things about interviewing guestsis when I'm forced to confront my
own biases and areas for growth.
I never thought about the ripple effectof not having athletic clothes that fit.
How that messages to kids and adults.
That this activity isn't for you.
This was a sobering reminder of howbias and privilege work, where I
(23:24):
didn't even really see how structuresmight exclude others because they
didn't create friction for me.
Any who.
It makes me want to try and seebetter to have fewer blind spots
so I can be more inclusive.
So here are today's key takeawaysfrom my conversation with Pam.
Number one.
As early as possible, we have tomake spaces and activities for
(23:47):
kids as inclusive as possible.
By giving kids and teens accessto active wear that fits them.
We're telling them that they belong.
It's okay for them to be in these places.
And you.
You can do these things that you love.
Number two, help your daughtersfind clothes that fit.
If they don't feel comfortable in clothes.
They may think it's a problem with theirbodies when it's actually fixable by
(24:11):
getting them better fitting clothing.
Side note.
I had to check myselfa couple of years ago.
When my daughter was asking fornew pants again and saying she
didn't like the clothes I boughther three to four months earlier.
My knee jerk reaction was to thinkthat she was being fickle and was
falling prey to a consumerism.
But when she tried her pants on, theywere short and the waist was really tight.
(24:33):
So, yeah.
Um, that was a lesson tome to be open to dialogue.
Don't assume, you know what's going on.
Um, especially when thinkingabout clothing and your girls
and what works best for them.
Number three, listen to your daughterwhen she's grappling with her body image.
Remind her that even if she's strugglingwith a growing or changing body,
(24:53):
It's still a good and valuable body.
Ask her.
What makes you feel strong in your body?
What makes you feel good in your body?
Encourage her to.
To think of her body asa tool, not an ornament.
Number four.
Diversify the kinds of bodies yousee in your social media feeds,
there are different accountsthat feature bodies of all sizes.
(25:13):
So challenge your ownunconscious biases by.
Widening your lens.
Number five, stop talking about howindividual bodies look including your own.
Catch yourself.
If you're making comments.
And number six.
Encourage your kids to be media literate.
When you see advertising.
I help them question.
(25:34):
Who's benefiting from this.
What message are they sending?
What are they trying to accomplish?
Media literacy, encouragescritical thinking.
It helps kids see how media affects ourculture and it teaches them how not to
be swayed by persuasive techniques thatadvertising and influencers might use.
To learn more about Ember and ACE andtheir athletic wear for plus sized kids.
(25:58):
Visit Ember and ace.com.
That's E M B E R a N D a C e.com.
The five-piece essential.
His collection is available now.
Thanks so much for listening and ifyou haven't done so already follow
on your favorite podcasting platform.
Tell a friend about theshow and leave a review.
(26:19):
Also visit knowberaisethem.com.
And follow me on Instagram@knowberaisethem.
I hope you have a wonderfulweek and here's to strong women.
May we know them?
May we be them?
And may we raise them?
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.