Episode 42 is all about fundamental LGBTQ concepts, and ways we can support our kids and others who may be on their own journey, discovering who they are. Elaine Farris joins host Carmelita (Cat) Tiu and shares:
- What the definitions are for assigned sex, gender identity, gender expression, and sexual orientation
- How these terms relate to one another
- Why acceptance is not the goal
- The importance of using pronouns
- How to support your child while being careful not to push them
Guest Bio:
Elaine is a licensed clinical social worker and psychotherapist based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, whose passion is working with individuals within the LGBTQ+ community, and the neurodivergent community, which often overlap. She works under an intersectional, feminist, and anti-oppressive framework.
Email: elainefarristherapist@gmail.com
In this episode – references and additional resources:
- The Trevor Project
- Previous Episode of Know Them, Be Them, Raise Them:
- Emotional Suppression and How to Create a Safe Space for Your Kids to Open Up // with Ezza Mustaffa (Ep. 35)
Know Them, Be Them, Raise Them
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Welcome to know them. (00:02):
undefined
Be them, raise them.
Uh, show to help busy, mindful,and growth oriented moms of
girls stay informed and inspired.
Especially through theirdaughters, tween and teen years.
I'm your host Carmelita to.
If you'd like what you hear or youfind something helpful in the podcast,
please hit, subscribe or follow.
Tell your friends and leave areview on apple podcasts or Spotify.
(00:26):
You may think subscribing andreviews don't really help, but they
do help other listeners choose tolisten to this particular show.
Also follow at no beraised them on Instagram.
You'll get reminders, quotes fromwise, women giveaways and more.
And thank you in advanceso much for your support.
So when I was growing up, I didn't know asingle gay person, or if I did, I didn't
(00:50):
know it or they hadn't come out yet.
If they were one of my peers.
I grew up in a suburb of Milwaukee,Wisconsin, and I lived kind
of a sheltered existence, butI also think it was the time.
In the eighties, people weren'treally talking about it as
much as, as far as I knew.
If I'm remembering correctly.
I think I was in high school whenI first met an openly gay couple.
(01:13):
And they were visiting town from Chicago.
Now my daughter's liveslook very different.
One of my daughter's bestfriends in kindergarten.
Started the year with a boy's name.
But midway through.
Made it clear.
She identified as a girl andended the year with a girl's name,
pigtails and painted nails and all.
(01:34):
My other daughter was I thinkin fourth or fifth grade.
When she came home with a sheet fullof colorful flags, she had drawn.
, Including the gay pride flag.
The pansexual flag and the bisexual flag.
And now there are LGBTQcharacters on television.
Often.
It wasn't something Iremember seeing ever.
(01:56):
Ever as a kid, but my girlscelebrate diverse representation.
I'd say at least once a weekon some show they're watching.
So along with these changeshave come new words and terms.
, I was lucky to learn some of themthrough diversity initiatives at work.
But not everyone has that opportunity.
And frankly, I could learn more.
(02:19):
Every time I do an interview with a guestI'm reminded of how much, I didn't know.
I didn't know.
So my guest today is Elaine Ferris.
Social change has alwaysbeen important to Elaine.
She studied social policy as an undergrad.
And during that time she becameinvolved with the LGBTQ plus community.
Eventually identifyingwithin the community herself.
(02:41):
And exploring her own journey.
While studying abroad in Amsterdam,she became acutely aware of the
needs of the transgender community.
Especially the lack of support.
Particularly for thosein physical transition.
This inspired her to obtainher master's in social work.
Focusing on LGBTQ plus individuals.
Especially transgender persons.
(03:04):
Today.
Elaine is a licensed clinical social.
Uh, worker and psychotherapistbased in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
Whose passion is working withindividuals within the LGBTQ plus
community and the neurodivergentcommunity, which often overlap.
She works under an intersectionalfeminist and anti-oppressive framework.
(03:25):
Here's our conversation.
Welcome Elaine.
I am eager to have you share yourexpertise on the LGBTQ community and
your experiences to help us learn.
Elaine Farris (03:39):
Of course, thanks for having me.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (03:41):
So can you explain, assigned sex, gender
identity, gender expression, andsexual orientation and how those all
interrelate and how they can show up.
Elaine Farris (03:53):
Yes, these are all very different terms that have their own unique
meanings that can relate to each other.
So I guess just going through eachone, one by one, assigned sex at
birth is relating to what societydeems us to be at birth usually
based off of our bodies in genitalia.
(04:15):
It's a pretty narrow understanding of sex,because for example, it's very ignorant
towards the existence of intersex peoplethat might not fall into a category.
Um,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (04:26):
And explain what intersex means.
If you
Elaine Farris (04:29):
yeah, intersex is when a person's genitalia, again,
doesn't fit within the standardsof like, oh, this is, you know, a
female body and this is a male body.
There can be a a lot of different like,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (04:42):
Mm.
Elaine Farris (04:43):
Even within the category of intersex, it doesn't
usually just mean one thing.
Like it can mean a lot of differentthings, whether it's, how a person
might look or, you know, chromosomally.
And unfortunately in the past societyand hospitals have been so adamant
about putting people into a category
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (05:02):
mm-hmm
Elaine Farris (05:02):
that they have really encouraged, or maybe not
even told parents that it was apossibility not to do surgery.
Uh, yes.
So they would say you have to choose,do you want your baby to be a, a male
or a female, and then we'll do surgeryso that they fit into this category,
even if it's completely unnecessary.
And most of the time itis unnecessary, actually.
(05:25):
So that's how, how much our society caresabout gender norms and fitting into.
and a lot of the times it's, verytraumatic because many intersects
people might grow up later in life.
Not even knowing that they're intersexand they might start, exploring their own
gender and their own bodies and realizingthat, they themselves might identify
(05:47):
as trans and you know, they might haveto get like corrective surgery or, they
might transition and, maybe the surgeryat birth made it a lot more difficult
for them to transition or, again likethe not understanding and not even really
being informed about yourself and justthe trauma that can cause is something
(06:07):
that is, I think not talked about enough.
And I think it's hopefully shiftingmore towards you know, parents
not necessarily being encouragedor forced to choose at birth.
But I, it definitely still happensand there's still a huge lack of
understanding of what don't fit, youknow, within the categories that,
(06:28):
that society deems to be reasonable.
But yeah, sex in general is still,is considered to be related to like
what a person's body looks like.
Which is just very, very outdatedor, or the chromosomes, which again,
like, even with intersex peoplein existence, like you would think
that people would understand thatthat doesn't work for everybody.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (06:48):
Mmm.
Elaine Farris (06:48):
not so cotton dry, but there are a lot of people out
there who are very internalized,uh, these gender norms.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (06:55):
right.
Elaine Farris (06:55):
Mm-hmm
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (06:56):
And then gender identity is how a person sees themself.
Elaine Farris (07:02):
exactly.
It's how they identify their gender.
And so that can.
I wanted to say like correlate ornot correlate with gender expression.
I struggle to use that wordbecause , what is a correlation?
Right?
Somebody decided in our societythat girls wear dresses.
So you would think like, oh, well,a girl correlates with a dress.
(07:24):
Pink with girls, you know, all thesegender norms are just literally made up.
So gender expression though, is, ishow a person expresses their gender.
And this is often through clothesand presentation and, and some of it
might fall within, what is societalnorms, like, a person who might
identify as a trans girl or transwoman might, want to wear dresses
(07:45):
or, be seen as more feminine.
But it is interesting to consider, howmuch of this is societal standards and how
much of it is, the gender identity andexpression that you're wanting to portray.
, it's, uh, kind of complicated becausefrom the moment we're born, we're
internalizing these ideas of feminism andmasculinity and, what that means to us.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (08:05):
Mm-hmm okay.
Elaine Farris (08:06):
Sexual orientation, I think is actually the most
unrelated to the other terms.
because it doesn't have anythingto do with sex or gender at all.
It's who you're attracted to.
Even beyond sexual orientation,there are, different categories
of attraction within that.
So there's emotionalattraction, physical attraction.
Sexual attraction and romantic attractionand all of that can be very different.
(08:29):
You know, there's people who arearomantic, who are asexual, there's
a lot of different terms out there.
You know, some people really like thelabels, some people don't like the labels.
It's whatever works for a person.
For example, there are some peoplewho really might be able to feel
sexual attraction, but not romanticattraction or, you know, vice versa,
maybe really can feel the romanticattraction towards a person, an emotional
(08:51):
connection, but, maybe they're justnot sexually attracted to individuals.
And so there there's a lot ofnuance within that as well.
. Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (08:57):
I love that you sort of nonchalantly said that sexual
orientation is a separate thing from,from the gender discussion, because I
think people assume you born with malebody parts, then you're a man and you
should be attracted to women, you know?
So I, appreciate, and I'm grateful forthat mindset of these are distinct things.
Elaine Farris (09:21):
And you know, I do understand that it can
be a little bit confusing.
For example, people whomight have like, no.
Idea about any of this stuff, you know,when you hear oh, LGBTQ, like, you
know, I think that, course there's alot of discourse in regards to grouping
everybody together because there aredifferences in these experiences,
particularly with the trans community.
(09:42):
In the past, unfortunately, there's beena lot of discrimination in currently, too.
There's been a lot of discriminationtowards the trans community.
Even within the queercommunity as a whole.
So like L G B uh, individuals, or,you know, just beyond, in regards
to sexual orientation or attracthave been very discriminatory
(10:04):
towards transgender individuals.
So I think it just goes to showthat they are very different topics
and these communities do experiencedifferent types of discrimination.
We know that, trans individuals,especially trans women, especially
black and brown trans women have a lotof you know, safety issues that they
(10:25):
have to deal with that, for example,white gay men do not have to deal with.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Mm mm-hmm . Mm, mm. (10:31):
undefined
Elaine Farris (10:32):
Yeah.
It's not just these termsthat are very different.
It's these people's experiencesthat are very different as well,
that we have to take into account.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (10:39):
Right.
And, the goal ultimately is, in my mind,acceptance of whoever, regardless of what
you may have been born with, whateveryou identify with, and however you choose
to express yourself and however, andwhoever you choose to love, is okay,
Elaine Farris (10:56):
I think celebration is, is ideal.
you know, I think acceptance is, oh, okay.
I'll I guess I'll accept that.
Like, it's kinda like thisunder like, oh, accept that.
Um, versus like, I think celebrationand validation can kind of give
a different feel towards that.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: that absolutely. (11:13):
undefined
No, that's a very good point.
And it, reminds me a little bit.
And I don't mean to conflate two very,different issues, but the sense of
activism around the black lives mattermovement and being anti-racist and how,
it's not enough to say you're not racistor to operate or function in your own
tiny little world, as someone that thinksyou're not racist, you have to do more.
(11:37):
You have to proactively dosomething to help dismantle our
systemically racist structures.
Elaine Farris (11:42):
Yeah.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (11:43):
That's kind of what struck me about your
use of the word celebrate, like domore than just accept or tolerate?
Right.
So thank you for saying that,
Elaine Farris (11:54):
And you know, if you're just kind of going along with
the norm, then unfortunately you'recontributing to oppressive structures
that have been place for so long,because if we don't do anything, then
they're just gonna be there forever.
You gotta, You gotta very purposefully,you know, challenge that and go
against it in order to create change.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (12:11):
And one small thing, maybe it's not so small,
but one thing that felt kind of easyI think for some people to start doing
is in their email signatures or ontheir zoom cameras, adding pronouns.
What do you think theimportance of using pronouns is?
And if there's anyone who's skepticalabout how or why it's important
(12:31):
what would you like to tell.
Elaine Farris (12:34):
It's incredibly important.
If, if a person cares.
And I say that because there are somepeople out there who might not feel
like their pronouns are that important.
I've worked with clients beforewho have said, oh yeah, like,
it's not as big of a deal to me.
And it's always important to recognizethat there are those experiences as well.
But on the flip side, there are alsopeople who are very, very adamant
(12:58):
about pronouns and, and it can reallyaffect their mental health when you
use them correctly or incorrectly,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (13:05):
Hm.
Elaine Farris (13:05):
Most of the time, if you're using them incorrectly, of course, that
really can cause distress but I actuallyjust looked up some statistics , that are
recent from the Trevor project, becauseI think that these statistics can kind
of emphasize why support is so important.
So, a 2022 national survey on LGBTQyouth, mental health found that 45%
(13:29):
of LGBTQ youth seriously consideredattempting suicide in the past
year, including more than half oftransgender and non-binary youth.
So when you look at those numbers, itis literally life or death for, a lot
of these individuals, especially youngpeople because you know, young people are,
are in the most vulnerable positions.
(13:51):
And parental support is one of the biggestfactors in helping prevent suicide in
helping to stabilize mental health.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:00):
Mm,
Elaine Farris (14:01):
And, it's a pronoun, like is it really that big of a deal
for you to, you know, try to change,maybe the name, try to do your
best , you know, and the thing is , Ithink it's important to be realistic
and it's understandable that it takestime to like, change your language.
You might make some mistakes, butI've talked to so many people before
who say that it is very easy totell when you're actually trying.
(14:23):
So most trans people can tell when you'reputting in an effort to making that
change, even if you stumble, you know,even if you're like, oh, like, sorry,
you know, use the wrong pronoun there.
Correct yourself and move on.
Don't make it a big deal.
I would say too, that that's anotherthing that, we tend to talk about a lot.
It's uh, kind of overwhelming when,you know, you profusely apologize,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:44):
Mm,
Elaine Farris (14:45):
you know, the trans person feels like they have to make you feel
better And they're just like, okay, like,can you just apologize and fix it and
then move on and do better in the future.
You know, like it's not about you.
It's, it's about, this personwho's going through a lot
and just looking for support.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:59):
Those are super helpful tips because I'm sure
there are people who are reluctantor worried they're gonna mess up.
And so talking through like,don't make it a big deal.
Just fix it and move forward, you know?
That's helpful to know, likethere's no, scripted apology
that you have to have memorized inyour back pocket if you mess up.
(15:19):
And like you said, I think in somany situations and I feel this way
generally about parenting, but it's theeffort you're putting in that can carry
so much weight, like mess up or not.
If you're trying that goes so far.
Elaine Farris (15:34):
And, practice too.
practice saying their new name in, in asentence, practice, their new pronoun and,
you know, use it around other people too.
Cuz I think that you know, peoplenotice like, you know, okay, maybe you
only try when you're like with me, butthen when you're talking to a family
member, you're talking to somebodyelse, then you go back and you revert.
And it's a different storyif this person isn't out yet.
(15:57):
And maybe, , switching is necessaryin order to respect that that
person hasn't come out yet.
But if a person is wanting you touse those pronouns permanently,
then use them in any context.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (16:10):
Mm.
Elaine Farris (16:11):
Again, that can really, really affect a person's mental health.
And it's just one smallway of showing support.
I would say bare minimum.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (16:19):
You know, it feels like over the last 10, 20 years,
you know, there's been a collective,increase of an awareness around
transgender issues and LGBTQ issues.
So I think a question that comes up is,is this us noticing it more and being more
aware of it or are kids are young peoplesexperimenting more or becoming quote
(16:43):
unquote confused, which kind of ties intothe, don't say gay legislation in Florida.
So in your opinion, I guess, does ourtalking about it more what impact do
you really think it has on young people?
And, you know, because theremust be a range of normal for
this and quote, unquote normal.
I don't think that kids are thinkingthat looks fun and I'm gonna
(17:06):
do this, you know what I mean?
Especially when there are socialimplications to their decisions.
And so, yeah, I'm curious whatyour thoughts are on all this.
Elaine Farris (17:15):
Yes.
I mean, I think it'sall normal to explore.
And it's not that it wasn't happeningdecades or even centuries ago.
It's just that it wasn't talkedabout or people didn't have
the language and nowadays
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: and repressed, right? (17:31):
undefined
Yeah.
Elaine Farris (17:33):
absolutely.
Yes.
And, and so nowadays, although theinternet can be a very toxic place, I
think that there's a lot of benefitsin finding language, realizing that
you're not alone, finding support , alot of people within the community,
you know, their initial support oreven just general support is online.
(17:54):
And so that makes all the difference.
And yeah, I think it's so normal for youngpeople to explore their identities and.
Even beyond gender, right?
Like we know that it's prettynormal for a child to just like,
be figuring themselves out.
And so this is bound to come up regardlessof whether or not you're talking about it.
(18:15):
The only difference is if you'renot talking about it, what that
is showing them is that there'ssomething to be ashamed about.
There's something wrong here, which cannegatively affect their mental health.
So talking about.
Topics and normalizing, it doesn'tmean that you're encouraging it.
It just means that you'reinforming them and then they can
kind of explore on their own.
(18:36):
And a lot of the times they, theymight just be exploring . like
very, very young children,especially, that is super normal.
You know, there are some kids whoare like five, six who might explore
gender expressions or, genderidentity and I don't know a little
girl, for example, like chop offall her hair and be a tomboy.
I would say, as a child gets a littlebit older, you know, maybe into their
(18:58):
teens, if they're still exploring,then it might be more of a certainty.
It depends on how, howthey're going about it.
And, how it is for them.
Like the more adamant a child is, Iwould say the more potential likelihood
that this is a real thing for themthat will last beyond childhood.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (19:20):
And I heard you encourage like a, an atmosphere of
openness, I think what you said was, ifyou are not talking about certain things,
then you're implying that this is notsomething that is okay to talk about.
And so that can leave a sense of shame andinsecurity around that particular topic.
(19:42):
So things like support, openness, um,and meeting them where they're at?
It also applies okay.
Elaine Farris (19:49):
just about to go there in.
In saying that sometimes theparents might be over eager in
supporting their child.
Like it's, maybe more rare than,than the other, but sometimes parents
might be too gung ho and they'relike, oh my gosh, like, do you want
me to like, buy these clothes for you?
(20:09):
Or do you, wanna do, doyou wanna go hormone?
Do we need to do that then?
Do you want me get a new therapist?
Da, da.
And um, I think when we say meetyour child where they're at.
It means both, right?
The balance of like, yes, listento where they're at, but also maybe
don't push them in any direction.
Because especially with the discoursenowadays, a lot of people, know
(20:31):
more about the existence ofLGBTQ identities and especially,
you know, trans, uh, children.
And so they might think, oh, the momenta child starts questioning, that means
that they're trans and that, you know, youshould just go all in and start buying
them new clothes and, and all that stuff.
And that is definitely, not appropriate.
(20:54):
Because it might not be where your kid'sat yet and gonna go get there eventually,
who knows, but also maybe they'lltotally pivot and go somewhere else.
So we wanna actually listen to them inthe moment of like, okay, like what's,
you know, what's going on right now?
Like, what are you thinking?
And, and what are they needing right inthis moment that we know of, for sure.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Ah, that's so good. (21:13):
undefined
I think parents, myself included oranyone we crave certainty, right?
there's so much relief in knowingthat something has been decided on
and you can head in that direction.
, so yeah, I, that's a very good point.,wanting to be certain, regardless
of what that outcome is, can alsobe very, you know, potentially
(21:35):
limiting and daunting for a kid.
Huh?
Elaine Farris (21:38):
Definitely.
And you know, this is a process Ithink all of us are trying to figure
out our ourselves and our identitiesthroughout life, to be honest.
Working with individuals themselveswho are transitioning there, there
is often this desire to be like,okay, know, I wanna be at the end
of my transition and I wanna be done
and obviously that's valid tobe feeling that that way.
(22:01):
And a lot of it has to do withsocietal discrimination and
oppression that they're going,
you know, when are you really done?
Because it is just like a lifelongprocess of, knowing yourself and growing.
And, you know, even at 30 years old, youmight think something about yourself and
be quite certain, then 10 years later,that might not be the case anymore.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (22:21):
Is there a, parting thought you'd like to leave on
this topic with the listeners nurse?
Elaine Farris (22:26):
I can understand why parents might want their kids
to fit in and not be bullied and,to not experience discrimination.
Um, but again, it's about, I thinkmeeting your kid where they're at and,
maybe that's not what they're wanting.
, and so it's, just not making assumptionsand, recognizing that your experience is
(22:48):
different from your children's experienceand , it's okay that it's different.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (22:53):
I'm so grateful for my time with Elaine.
Here were my top takeawaysfrom this episode.
Number one, the reference to one sex.
Assigned sex, biological sexor sex assigned at birth.
Means typically what society deems asmale or female based on the biological
characteristics, a person is born with.
Like your genitalia.
(23:15):
Gender identity.
Stems from one's deeply heldfeelings about whether they are
male, female, both or neither.
And this could be fluid.
Gender expression is how someone expressestheir gender typically by their clothes.
Um, the hair, makeup,body language, and voice.
(23:36):
Um, also a person's name and pronounare common ways of expressing gender.
And sexual orientation is.
Put simply who someone is attracted to.
Number two.
According to the Trevorproject, 2022 national survey.
On LGBTQ youth, 45% of LGBTQyouth, seriously considered
(24:00):
attempting suicide in the past year.
Including more than half oftransgender and non-binary youth.
This means that our ability to sport kids.
And talk about issues can literallybe a life or death situation.
And parental support is a huge component.
In the success and health and wellbeing.
of young people.
(24:22):
Number three.
Pronouns make space for transgenderand gender non-binary people.
Use of inaccurate pronouns can havea negative effect on mental health.
So do try.
And if you make a mistake,simply apologize and move on.
Over apologizing can place a burdenon the transgender individual.
(24:42):
Uh, and then they feel like they haveto take care of your feelings, which is
something we're trying to avoid Lloyd.
Number four.
I remember that it'snormal for kids to explore.
Whether it's their gender identity.
Gender expression, et cetera.
I try to create a safe spaceand have open conversations
with them about their feelings.
Number five.
(25:03):
If you're not talking about certainthings, then you're implying that those
topics are not okay to talk about.
And that can lead to feelingsof shame and disconnect.
And number six whilesupport is a good thing.
Be mindful of your reactionsand try not to show any biases
that might pressure your kid.
One way or the other.
(25:24):
Meet your child where they're at.
If you'd like to connect withElaine, check the show notes
for her contact information.
I know I say this at the end of everyshow, but I 100% sincerely mean it.
When I say thank you for listening.
I'm so grateful for you.
, knowing that someone's listeninghelps fuel my desire to make more
(25:45):
of these episodes and hopefullyprovide content that's meaningful
and important and engaging to you.
Remember to subscribe, tell a friend andleave a review and here's to strong women.
May we know them?
May we be them?
And may we raise them?
undefined
Be them, raise them.
Uh, show to help busy, mindful,and growth oriented moms of
girls stay informed and inspired.
Especially through theirdaughters, tween and teen years.
I'm your host Carmelita to.
If you'd like what you hear or youfind something helpful in the podcast,
please hit, subscribe or follow.
Tell your friends and leave areview on apple podcasts or Spotify.
(00:26):
You may think subscribing andreviews don't really help, but they
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Also follow at no beraised them on Instagram.
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And thank you in advanceso much for your support.
So when I was growing up, I didn't know asingle gay person, or if I did, I didn't
(00:50):
know it or they hadn't come out yet.
If they were one of my peers.
I grew up in a suburb of Milwaukee,Wisconsin, and I lived kind
of a sheltered existence, butI also think it was the time.
In the eighties, people weren'treally talking about it as
much as, as far as I knew.
If I'm remembering correctly.
I think I was in high school whenI first met an openly gay couple.
(01:13):
And they were visiting town from Chicago.
Now my daughter's liveslook very different.
One of my daughter's bestfriends in kindergarten.
Started the year with a boy's name.
But midway through.
Made it clear.
She identified as a girl andended the year with a girl's name,
pigtails and painted nails and all.
(01:34):
My other daughter was I thinkin fourth or fifth grade.
When she came home with a sheet fullof colorful flags, she had drawn.
, Including the gay pride flag.
The pansexual flag and the bisexual flag.
And now there are LGBTQcharacters on television.
Often.
It wasn't something Iremember seeing ever.
(01:56):
Ever as a kid, but my girlscelebrate diverse representation.
I'd say at least once a weekon some show they're watching.
So along with these changeshave come new words and terms.
, I was lucky to learn some of themthrough diversity initiatives at work.
But not everyone has that opportunity.
And frankly, I could learn more.
(02:19):
Every time I do an interview with a guestI'm reminded of how much, I didn't know.
I didn't know.
So my guest today is Elaine Ferris.
Social change has alwaysbeen important to Elaine.
She studied social policy as an undergrad.
And during that time she becameinvolved with the LGBTQ plus community.
Eventually identifyingwithin the community herself.
(02:41):
And exploring her own journey.
While studying abroad in Amsterdam,she became acutely aware of the
needs of the transgender community.
Especially the lack of support.
Particularly for thosein physical transition.
This inspired her to obtainher master's in social work.
Focusing on LGBTQ plus individuals.
Especially transgender persons.
(03:04):
Today.
Elaine is a licensed clinical social.
Uh, worker and psychotherapistbased in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
Whose passion is working withindividuals within the LGBTQ plus
community and the neurodivergentcommunity, which often overlap.
She works under an intersectionalfeminist and anti-oppressive framework.
(03:25):
Here's our conversation.
Welcome Elaine.
I am eager to have you share yourexpertise on the LGBTQ community and
your experiences to help us learn.
Elaine Farris (03:39):
Of course, thanks for having me.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (03:41):
So can you explain, assigned sex, gender
identity, gender expression, andsexual orientation and how those all
interrelate and how they can show up.
Elaine Farris (03:53):
Yes, these are all very different terms that have their own unique
meanings that can relate to each other.
So I guess just going through eachone, one by one, assigned sex at
birth is relating to what societydeems us to be at birth usually
based off of our bodies in genitalia.
(04:15):
It's a pretty narrow understanding of sex,because for example, it's very ignorant
towards the existence of intersex peoplethat might not fall into a category.
Um,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (04:26):
And explain what intersex means.
If you
Elaine Farris (04:29):
yeah, intersex is when a person's genitalia, again,
doesn't fit within the standardsof like, oh, this is, you know, a
female body and this is a male body.
There can be a a lot of different like,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (04:42):
Mm.
Elaine Farris (04:43):
Even within the category of intersex, it doesn't
usually just mean one thing.
Like it can mean a lot of differentthings, whether it's, how a person
might look or, you know, chromosomally.
And unfortunately in the past societyand hospitals have been so adamant
about putting people into a category
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (05:02):
mm-hmm
Elaine Farris (05:02):
that they have really encouraged, or maybe not
even told parents that it was apossibility not to do surgery.
Uh, yes.
So they would say you have to choose,do you want your baby to be a, a male
or a female, and then we'll do surgeryso that they fit into this category,
even if it's completely unnecessary.
And most of the time itis unnecessary, actually.
(05:25):
So that's how, how much our society caresabout gender norms and fitting into.
and a lot of the times it's, verytraumatic because many intersects
people might grow up later in life.
Not even knowing that they're intersexand they might start, exploring their own
gender and their own bodies and realizingthat, they themselves might identify
(05:47):
as trans and you know, they might haveto get like corrective surgery or, they
might transition and, maybe the surgeryat birth made it a lot more difficult
for them to transition or, again likethe not understanding and not even really
being informed about yourself and justthe trauma that can cause is something
(06:07):
that is, I think not talked about enough.
And I think it's hopefully shiftingmore towards you know, parents
not necessarily being encouragedor forced to choose at birth.
But I, it definitely still happensand there's still a huge lack of
understanding of what don't fit, youknow, within the categories that,
(06:28):
that society deems to be reasonable.
But yeah, sex in general is still,is considered to be related to like
what a person's body looks like.
Which is just very, very outdatedor, or the chromosomes, which again,
like, even with intersex peoplein existence, like you would think
that people would understand thatthat doesn't work for everybody.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (06:48):
Mmm.
Elaine Farris (06:48):
not so cotton dry, but there are a lot of people out
there who are very internalized,uh, these gender norms.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (06:55):
right.
Elaine Farris (06:55):
Mm-hmm
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (06:56):
And then gender identity is how a person sees themself.
Elaine Farris (07:02):
exactly.
It's how they identify their gender.
And so that can.
I wanted to say like correlate ornot correlate with gender expression.
I struggle to use that wordbecause , what is a correlation?
Right?
Somebody decided in our societythat girls wear dresses.
So you would think like, oh, well,a girl correlates with a dress.
(07:24):
Pink with girls, you know, all thesegender norms are just literally made up.
So gender expression though, is, ishow a person expresses their gender.
And this is often through clothesand presentation and, and some of it
might fall within, what is societalnorms, like, a person who might
identify as a trans girl or transwoman might, want to wear dresses
(07:45):
or, be seen as more feminine.
But it is interesting to consider, howmuch of this is societal standards and how
much of it is, the gender identity andexpression that you're wanting to portray.
, it's, uh, kind of complicated becausefrom the moment we're born, we're
internalizing these ideas of feminism andmasculinity and, what that means to us.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (08:05):
Mm-hmm okay.
Elaine Farris (08:06):
Sexual orientation, I think is actually the most
unrelated to the other terms.
because it doesn't have anythingto do with sex or gender at all.
It's who you're attracted to.
Even beyond sexual orientation,there are, different categories
of attraction within that.
So there's emotionalattraction, physical attraction.
Sexual attraction and romantic attractionand all of that can be very different.
(08:29):
You know, there's people who arearomantic, who are asexual, there's
a lot of different terms out there.
You know, some people really like thelabels, some people don't like the labels.
It's whatever works for a person.
For example, there are some peoplewho really might be able to feel
sexual attraction, but not romanticattraction or, you know, vice versa,
maybe really can feel the romanticattraction towards a person, an emotional
(08:51):
connection, but, maybe they're justnot sexually attracted to individuals.
And so there there's a lot ofnuance within that as well.
. Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (08:57):
I love that you sort of nonchalantly said that sexual
orientation is a separate thing from,from the gender discussion, because I
think people assume you born with malebody parts, then you're a man and you
should be attracted to women, you know?
So I, appreciate, and I'm grateful forthat mindset of these are distinct things.
Elaine Farris (09:21):
And you know, I do understand that it can
be a little bit confusing.
For example, people whomight have like, no.
Idea about any of this stuff, you know,when you hear oh, LGBTQ, like, you
know, I think that, course there's alot of discourse in regards to grouping
everybody together because there aredifferences in these experiences,
particularly with the trans community.
(09:42):
In the past, unfortunately, there's beena lot of discrimination in currently, too.
There's been a lot of discriminationtowards the trans community.
Even within the queercommunity as a whole.
So like L G B uh, individuals, or,you know, just beyond, in regards
to sexual orientation or attracthave been very discriminatory
(10:04):
towards transgender individuals.
So I think it just goes to showthat they are very different topics
and these communities do experiencedifferent types of discrimination.
We know that, trans individuals,especially trans women, especially
black and brown trans women have a lotof you know, safety issues that they
(10:25):
have to deal with that, for example,white gay men do not have to deal with.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Mm mm-hmm . Mm, mm. (10:31):
undefined
Elaine Farris (10:32):
Yeah.
It's not just these termsthat are very different.
It's these people's experiencesthat are very different as well,
that we have to take into account.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (10:39):
Right.
And, the goal ultimately is, in my mind,acceptance of whoever, regardless of what
you may have been born with, whateveryou identify with, and however you choose
to express yourself and however, andwhoever you choose to love, is okay,
Elaine Farris (10:56):
I think celebration is, is ideal.
you know, I think acceptance is, oh, okay.
I'll I guess I'll accept that.
Like, it's kinda like thisunder like, oh, accept that.
Um, versus like, I think celebrationand validation can kind of give
a different feel towards that.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: that absolutely. (11:13):
undefined
No, that's a very good point.
And it, reminds me a little bit.
And I don't mean to conflate two very,different issues, but the sense of
activism around the black lives mattermovement and being anti-racist and how,
it's not enough to say you're not racistor to operate or function in your own
tiny little world, as someone that thinksyou're not racist, you have to do more.
(11:37):
You have to proactively dosomething to help dismantle our
systemically racist structures.
Elaine Farris (11:42):
Yeah.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (11:43):
That's kind of what struck me about your
use of the word celebrate, like domore than just accept or tolerate?
Right.
So thank you for saying that,
Elaine Farris (11:54):
And you know, if you're just kind of going along with
the norm, then unfortunately you'recontributing to oppressive structures
that have been place for so long,because if we don't do anything, then
they're just gonna be there forever.
You gotta, You gotta very purposefully,you know, challenge that and go
against it in order to create change.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (12:11):
And one small thing, maybe it's not so small,
but one thing that felt kind of easyI think for some people to start doing
is in their email signatures or ontheir zoom cameras, adding pronouns.
What do you think theimportance of using pronouns is?
And if there's anyone who's skepticalabout how or why it's important
(12:31):
what would you like to tell.
Elaine Farris (12:34):
It's incredibly important.
If, if a person cares.
And I say that because there are somepeople out there who might not feel
like their pronouns are that important.
I've worked with clients beforewho have said, oh yeah, like,
it's not as big of a deal to me.
And it's always important to recognizethat there are those experiences as well.
But on the flip side, there are alsopeople who are very, very adamant
(12:58):
about pronouns and, and it can reallyaffect their mental health when you
use them correctly or incorrectly,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (13:05):
Hm.
Elaine Farris (13:05):
Most of the time, if you're using them incorrectly, of course, that
really can cause distress but I actuallyjust looked up some statistics , that are
recent from the Trevor project, becauseI think that these statistics can kind
of emphasize why support is so important.
So, a 2022 national survey on LGBTQyouth, mental health found that 45%
(13:29):
of LGBTQ youth seriously consideredattempting suicide in the past
year, including more than half oftransgender and non-binary youth.
So when you look at those numbers, itis literally life or death for, a lot
of these individuals, especially youngpeople because you know, young people are,
are in the most vulnerable positions.
(13:51):
And parental support is one of the biggestfactors in helping prevent suicide in
helping to stabilize mental health.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:00):
Mm,
Elaine Farris (14:01):
And, it's a pronoun, like is it really that big of a deal
for you to, you know, try to change,maybe the name, try to do your
best , you know, and the thing is , Ithink it's important to be realistic
and it's understandable that it takestime to like, change your language.
You might make some mistakes, butI've talked to so many people before
who say that it is very easy totell when you're actually trying.
(14:23):
So most trans people can tell when you'reputting in an effort to making that
change, even if you stumble, you know,even if you're like, oh, like, sorry,
you know, use the wrong pronoun there.
Correct yourself and move on.
Don't make it a big deal.
I would say too, that that's anotherthing that, we tend to talk about a lot.
It's uh, kind of overwhelming when,you know, you profusely apologize,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:44):
Mm,
Elaine Farris (14:45):
you know, the trans person feels like they have to make you feel
better And they're just like, okay, like,can you just apologize and fix it and
then move on and do better in the future.
You know, like it's not about you.
It's, it's about, this personwho's going through a lot
and just looking for support.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:59):
Those are super helpful tips because I'm sure
there are people who are reluctantor worried they're gonna mess up.
And so talking through like,don't make it a big deal.
Just fix it and move forward, you know?
That's helpful to know, likethere's no, scripted apology
that you have to have memorized inyour back pocket if you mess up.
(15:19):
And like you said, I think in somany situations and I feel this way
generally about parenting, but it's theeffort you're putting in that can carry
so much weight, like mess up or not.
If you're trying that goes so far.
Elaine Farris (15:34):
And, practice too.
practice saying their new name in, in asentence, practice, their new pronoun and,
you know, use it around other people too.
Cuz I think that you know, peoplenotice like, you know, okay, maybe you
only try when you're like with me, butthen when you're talking to a family
member, you're talking to somebodyelse, then you go back and you revert.
And it's a different storyif this person isn't out yet.
(15:57):
And maybe, , switching is necessaryin order to respect that that
person hasn't come out yet.
But if a person is wanting you touse those pronouns permanently,
then use them in any context.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (16:10):
Mm.
Elaine Farris (16:11):
Again, that can really, really affect a person's mental health.
And it's just one smallway of showing support.
I would say bare minimum.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (16:19):
You know, it feels like over the last 10, 20 years,
you know, there's been a collective,increase of an awareness around
transgender issues and LGBTQ issues.
So I think a question that comes up is,is this us noticing it more and being more
aware of it or are kids are young peoplesexperimenting more or becoming quote
(16:43):
unquote confused, which kind of ties intothe, don't say gay legislation in Florida.
So in your opinion, I guess, does ourtalking about it more what impact do
you really think it has on young people?
And, you know, because theremust be a range of normal for
this and quote, unquote normal.
I don't think that kids are thinkingthat looks fun and I'm gonna
(17:06):
do this, you know what I mean?
Especially when there are socialimplications to their decisions.
And so, yeah, I'm curious whatyour thoughts are on all this.
Elaine Farris (17:15):
Yes.
I mean, I think it'sall normal to explore.
And it's not that it wasn't happeningdecades or even centuries ago.
It's just that it wasn't talkedabout or people didn't have
the language and nowadays
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: and repressed, right? (17:31):
undefined
Yeah.
Elaine Farris (17:33):
absolutely.
Yes.
And, and so nowadays, although theinternet can be a very toxic place, I
think that there's a lot of benefitsin finding language, realizing that
you're not alone, finding support , alot of people within the community,
you know, their initial support oreven just general support is online.
(17:54):
And so that makes all the difference.
And yeah, I think it's so normal for youngpeople to explore their identities and.
Even beyond gender, right?
Like we know that it's prettynormal for a child to just like,
be figuring themselves out.
And so this is bound to come up regardlessof whether or not you're talking about it.
(18:15):
The only difference is if you'renot talking about it, what that
is showing them is that there'ssomething to be ashamed about.
There's something wrong here, which cannegatively affect their mental health.
So talking about.
Topics and normalizing, it doesn'tmean that you're encouraging it.
It just means that you'reinforming them and then they can
kind of explore on their own.
(18:36):
And a lot of the times they, theymight just be exploring . like
very, very young children,especially, that is super normal.
You know, there are some kids whoare like five, six who might explore
gender expressions or, genderidentity and I don't know a little
girl, for example, like chop offall her hair and be a tomboy.
I would say, as a child gets a littlebit older, you know, maybe into their
(18:58):
teens, if they're still exploring,then it might be more of a certainty.
It depends on how, howthey're going about it.
And, how it is for them.
Like the more adamant a child is, Iwould say the more potential likelihood
that this is a real thing for themthat will last beyond childhood.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (19:20):
And I heard you encourage like a, an atmosphere of
openness, I think what you said was, ifyou are not talking about certain things,
then you're implying that this is notsomething that is okay to talk about.
And so that can leave a sense of shame andinsecurity around that particular topic.
(19:42):
So things like support, openness, um,and meeting them where they're at?
It also applies okay.
Elaine Farris (19:49):
just about to go there in.
In saying that sometimes theparents might be over eager in
supporting their child.
Like it's, maybe more rare than,than the other, but sometimes parents
might be too gung ho and they'relike, oh my gosh, like, do you want
me to like, buy these clothes for you?
(20:09):
Or do you, wanna do, doyou wanna go hormone?
Do we need to do that then?
Do you want me get a new therapist?
Da, da.
And um, I think when we say meetyour child where they're at.
It means both, right?
The balance of like, yes, listento where they're at, but also maybe
don't push them in any direction.
Because especially with the discoursenowadays, a lot of people, know
(20:31):
more about the existence ofLGBTQ identities and especially,
you know, trans, uh, children.
And so they might think, oh, the momenta child starts questioning, that means
that they're trans and that, you know, youshould just go all in and start buying
them new clothes and, and all that stuff.
And that is definitely, not appropriate.
(20:54):
Because it might not be where your kid'sat yet and gonna go get there eventually,
who knows, but also maybe they'lltotally pivot and go somewhere else.
So we wanna actually listen to them inthe moment of like, okay, like what's,
you know, what's going on right now?
Like, what are you thinking?
And, and what are they needing right inthis moment that we know of, for sure.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Ah, that's so good. (21:13):
undefined
I think parents, myself included oranyone we crave certainty, right?
there's so much relief in knowingthat something has been decided on
and you can head in that direction.
, so yeah, I, that's a very good point.,wanting to be certain, regardless
of what that outcome is, can alsobe very, you know, potentially
(21:35):
limiting and daunting for a kid.
Huh?
Elaine Farris (21:38):
Definitely.
And you know, this is a process Ithink all of us are trying to figure
out our ourselves and our identitiesthroughout life, to be honest.
Working with individuals themselveswho are transitioning there, there
is often this desire to be like,okay, know, I wanna be at the end
of my transition and I wanna be done
and obviously that's valid tobe feeling that that way.
(22:01):
And a lot of it has to do withsocietal discrimination and
oppression that they're going,
you know, when are you really done?
Because it is just like a lifelongprocess of, knowing yourself and growing.
And, you know, even at 30 years old, youmight think something about yourself and
be quite certain, then 10 years later,that might not be the case anymore.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (22:21):
Is there a, parting thought you'd like to leave on
this topic with the listeners nurse?
Elaine Farris (22:26):
I can understand why parents might want their kids
to fit in and not be bullied and,to not experience discrimination.
Um, but again, it's about, I thinkmeeting your kid where they're at and,
maybe that's not what they're wanting.
, and so it's, just not making assumptionsand, recognizing that your experience is
(22:48):
different from your children's experienceand , it's okay that it's different.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (22:53):
I'm so grateful for my time with Elaine.
Here were my top takeawaysfrom this episode.
Number one, the reference to one sex.
Assigned sex, biological sexor sex assigned at birth.
Means typically what society deems asmale or female based on the biological
characteristics, a person is born with.
Like your genitalia.
(23:15):
Gender identity.
Stems from one's deeply heldfeelings about whether they are
male, female, both or neither.
And this could be fluid.
Gender expression is how someone expressestheir gender typically by their clothes.
Um, the hair, makeup,body language, and voice.
(23:36):
Um, also a person's name and pronounare common ways of expressing gender.
And sexual orientation is.
Put simply who someone is attracted to.
Number two.
According to the Trevorproject, 2022 national survey.
On LGBTQ youth, 45% of LGBTQyouth, seriously considered
(24:00):
attempting suicide in the past year.
Including more than half oftransgender and non-binary youth.
This means that our ability to sport kids.
And talk about issues can literallybe a life or death situation.
And parental support is a huge component.
In the success and health and wellbeing.
of young people.
(24:22):
Number three.
Pronouns make space for transgenderand gender non-binary people.
Use of inaccurate pronouns can havea negative effect on mental health.
So do try.
And if you make a mistake,simply apologize and move on.
Over apologizing can place a burdenon the transgender individual.
(24:42):
Uh, and then they feel like they haveto take care of your feelings, which is
something we're trying to avoid Lloyd.
Number four.
I remember that it'snormal for kids to explore.
Whether it's their gender identity.
Gender expression, et cetera.
I try to create a safe spaceand have open conversations
with them about their feelings.
Number five.
(25:03):
If you're not talking about certainthings, then you're implying that those
topics are not okay to talk about.
And that can lead to feelingsof shame and disconnect.
And number six whilesupport is a good thing.
Be mindful of your reactionsand try not to show any biases
that might pressure your kid.
One way or the other.
(25:24):
Meet your child where they're at.
If you'd like to connect withElaine, check the show notes
for her contact information.
I know I say this at the end of everyshow, but I 100% sincerely mean it.
When I say thank you for listening.
I'm so grateful for you.
, knowing that someone's listeninghelps fuel my desire to make more
(25:45):
of these episodes and hopefullyprovide content that's meaningful
and important and engaging to you.
Remember to subscribe, tell a friend andleave a review and here's to strong women.
May we know them?
May we be them?
And may we raise them?
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