February 1, 2023 • 25 mins
Have you ever stopped to question the version of success that you may be pushing your kid to achieve? Do you wonder if you’re over-involved in your tween or teen’s life, or not enough? Do you want your kids to get straight As and secretly get a thrill if they say “I think I want to go Stanford or Harvard or Yale”? And then you kind of feel anxious about the pressure and what that means for them?
As parents, we all have an internal compass that guides us as we raise our kids. And it today's competitive world, it's more important than ever for parents to raise their kids with intentionality and grace.
Today’s guest, Cindy Muchnick, co-wrote the book, The Parent Compass: Navigating Your Teen’s Wellness and Academic Journey in Today’s Competitive World to help us navigate questions like this, and help us calibrate our parent compasses towards our kids’ wellbeing.
Listen to hear:
- The downsides of over-involved parenting
- When and how to nurture self-advocacy in your tweens and teens
- A tip for teen self-advocacy that Cindy’s never shared before!
- The ask that can forge new connections with your tween and teens
- What parents need to do before looking at how they're raising their kids
And more nuggets of wisdom!
About Our Guest, Cynthia Muchnick
Cindy, a graduate of Stanford University, is an expert in the college admission process: she got her start in admission offices before opening a private study skills and college counseling business in Southern California, which she ran for over fifteen years. As an Assistant Director of Admission for the Illinois Institute of Technology and the University of Chicago, she screened and reviewed over three thousand applications, interviewed prospective students, and served on the admission committee to evaluate borderline applicants and appeals cases. Then, as a private counselor, she helped hundreds of high school students navigate their academic journeys, including course selection, study skills, time management, and college applications. Since closing her private educational practice in 2011, Cindy has focused on public speaking to student, parent, school and business groups on a variety of education-related topics.
Over the course of her career, Cindy has written numerous books; The Parent Compass: Navigating Your Teen’s Wellness and Academic Journey in Today’s Competitive World (Familius/Workman/Hachette, 2020) is her tenth. Her other titles include The Best College Admission Essays (co-author, ARCO/Peterson’s, 1997), The Everything Guide to Study Skills: Strategies, Tips, and Tools You Need to Succeed in School (Simon& Schuster, 2011), Straight-A Study Skills (co-author, Simon& Schuster, 2012), The Everything College Checklist Book (Simon& Schuster, 2013), Writing Successful College Applications: It’s More than Just the Essay (Peterson’s Publishing, 2014), and four other books (Simon & Schuster and Penguin Random House). Her essays have appeared on Zibby Owens’ Moms Don’t Have Time To Write Medium platform, Your Teen Magazine, College Confidential, Raising Teens Today, The Los Angeles Times, and The Mom Experience, among others.
Cindy holds a bachelor’s degree in Political Science and Art History from Stanford University and a master’s degree in Liberal Studies from Nova Southeastern University. Some of the other twists and turns in her multifaceted career include her stints as a campus tour guide and volunteer student coordinator for Stanford’s Office of Undergraduate Admission and a tenth-grade history teacher at The University School, in Ft. Lauderdale, FL. She is a professional speaker and panelist on the subjects of education, study skills, parenting, and mental...
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Episode Transcript
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Cynthia Muchnick (00:00):
appreciate the child you have in front of you, not the one
you are trying to inauthentically create.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Welcome to know them. (00:10):
undefined
Be them, raise them a showto help busy, mindful.
Growth oriented moms thatstay informed and inspired.
As they navigate their daughters,crucial tween and teen years.
I'm your host Carmelita two.
So, have you ever made yourkids stick with an activity?
Even if they don't like.
It.
Do you wonder if you're talking too muchon your kids' behalf or maybe not enough?
(00:33):
Do you.
You want your kids to get straight?
A's and secretly.
We get a little thrill.
If they say, I think I wantto go to Stanford or Harvard.
Harvard or Yale.
And then you kind of feel anxiousabout the pressure and tuition.
Well, today's guest Cindy Mutchnick.
Co-wrote a book.
To help us navigate this balance.
And wonkiness.
And calibrate our parentCompass's if you will.
(00:55):
Cindy graduated from Stanforduniversity and is an expert.
Spurt in the college admissions process.
She got her start in admissionsoffices offices at IIT and
the university of Chicago.
Where she screened and reviewedover 3000 applications and
interviewed perspective students.
It's along the way.
She also opened a privatestudy skills practice.
And college counseling business insouthern california which she ran
(01:19):
for over 15 years helping Hundredsof high school students Navigate
their academic journeys, Includingthe dreaded Did college applications.
Since closing her private educationalpractice in 2011, cindy is a professional
speaker and panelist for a varietyof education related topics Ana.
And she's a prolific Brighter.
Her most recent book, the parentcompass navigating your teens
(01:42):
wellness and academic journeyin today's competitive world,
Is her 10th.
And i invited her on to talk about it
So now that you know that she knows herstuff when It comes to teens high school
stress academics College competitivenessEt cetera Here's our conversation
(02:05):
Well, welcome Cindy.
I'm so thrilled to have you.
Cynthia Muchnick (02:08):
Thank you, Kat.
It's great to be here to finally chat with
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (02:11):
Yes.
Well, let's dive right into it.
Uh, you've written a book,called The Parent Compass.
I'd love to hear you tell us in your ownwords, what's the main message behind
this title and how did you come up withthe idea, what does it mean, et cetera.
Cynthia Muchnick (02:26):
Sure.
So, so the parent Compass, thelonger title is Navigating Your
Teens Wellness and Academic Journeyin Today's Competitive World.
And so it's basically, writtenwith kind of two goals in mind.
One, to help preserve the mentalhealth of teens and tweens as they go
through these kind of tricky years.
And also to help preserve the parentteen relationship, which is really what
(02:48):
all you're left with once they've leftthe home and headed off on their own.
And so the idea for the book actuallycame out, um, in early 2019 when the
college admission scandal erupted,also known as Operation Varsity Blues.
And our news headlines were splashedwith parents who had broken the laws
and, um, found a side door into.
(03:08):
The college admissions process andreally, um, cheated their own kids
and cheated themselves, and justbehaved incredibly badly by, um,
you know, falsifying test scores,falsifying student resumes, falsifying
application information, et cetera.
And I called my colleague Jen Curtis,who is now co-author of the Parent
Compass with me, and the two of us justcouldn't believe what we were seeing.
(03:32):
We felt just got punched basically.
We had both been working inprivate college counseling, with
students for many, many years.
So we've always worked with teens and wefelt like some of what we were seeing in
our offices were the results of parentsthat weren't resorting to bribery and
fraud, but were somehow, um, causingsome other damage in their efforts to
(03:56):
support their kids that, you know, werekind of coming from a place of love,
but they were a little bit too involvedand too overbearing in the process.
And we said, you know what?
If we tried to remedy.
You know, not the collegeadmission scandal, but just the
parents behaving badly piece.
And so we wrote originally what we wantedto be an etiquette book, which was a book
to teach parents to kind of behave better.
(04:18):
And then it evolved into thisreal, what we're calling kind
of the parent compass movement.
This idea that we as parents need tobe better at checking ourselves and
making sure that the messages andthe ways that we're parenting our.
Are setting them up for a really positive,you know, experience in their lives.
(04:39):
And because we care so much aboutthem and we love them so fiercely,
we sometimes smother and tiger andhelicopter and, become that parent
that we really don't wanna be.
And in doing so, we are creatingkids that are cannot self-advocate,
that are fragile, that can't maketheir own appointments, that can't
(05:01):
speak for themselves, that are reallyfeeling like they're being paraded
around as their parents' trophy.
And I think that's not reallywhat we want, but somehow this
behavior is, you know, peteringdown and, affecting our kids.
So we wanna kind of help thisgeneration of tweens and teens by
teaching parents to do things a littlebit better and a little differently.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (05:20):
One of the things you mentioned, Advocacy
and, and children's needing tobe advocates for themselves.
Can you talk a little moreabout that and, you know, how
do we go about teaching that?
Cynthia Muchnick (05:31):
Absolutely.
So it's such a good question, Kat.
You know, self-advocacy, I knowyou have girls in middle school.
Self-advocacy can start even younger.
Self-advocacy can begin when we let ourkids struggle as they tie their shoes.
And, um, when we go to a restaurant, um,having them order for themselves, or ask
(05:52):
for their own refill of a glass of water.
Or when you take them to the doctor,letting them say their age and
their birthday and what's wrong.
But, um, when you go into tweensand teens, the self-advocacy piece
really becomes more how kids cancommunicate with other adults that are
not you other adults in their lives.
(06:12):
The teachers, the coaches, um, Whoeverit is in their life that's involved
in some way, it has to start to becomethe child's voice in communicating.
So when your kid comes home from practiceand says, oh, it was awful and this and
that, and this wasn't fair, insteadof picking up the phone and calling the
coach, you can say, wow, you know, itsounds like you're really frustrated.
(06:34):
You know, how do you think that couldlook different or what, what might
we be able to do or what might yoube able to do to, to change that?
And sometimes they just wanna vent and getthings out and not have a solution or a
solution presented because the last thingwe wanna do is fix everything for them.
Which is another hard thing cuz thatgoes with the self-advocacy piece.
When we are looking to fix,we're doing that from a place of
(06:57):
love, but we're taking away theiropportunity to figure it out.
So the self-advocacy piece I think comesin the most clearly when, for example, in
middle school, they start to have certainissues with teachers perhaps, and maybe
they felt like something wasn't fair.
Or maybe their seat is in the back of theroom and they wanna move up closer cause
(07:17):
they're having trouble seeing the board.
It's not up to you to send the emailas the parent, it's up to you maybe to
role play with your kid or say, how canyou communicate that with your teacher?
Um, do you wanna send them an emailor be better to ask in person and then
you can practice that together or youcan help them in a light way, draft an
email, but it should come from them.
(07:38):
And when you start to plant thoseseeds of self-advocacy where they
feel empowered to be the one to talkto their teachers and to talk to the
adults in their lives, then by the timethey get to high school, you should
really be really out of the picture.
In that communication.
In middle school, you're still goingto parent-teacher conferences and
you're still a little more involved.
And obviously if there'simpropriety or something very
(07:58):
extreme, you have to be involved.
But we're talking aboutday-to-day situations.
Your kid gets a bad grade, your kid,you know, gets in an argument with a
friend at school, whatever the thingsare that they can go to the school
counselor, they can go to the teacher.
Um, that should be the first line ofdefense and you can help equip them to
do that by allowing them to do that.
(08:18):
And so I think parents need to kindof learn to zip their lips a little
more and restrain themselves so thattheir kids can be the ones who speak.
And that's self-advocacy.
It's one of the greatest gifts youcan give your kids because it equips
them to know what they wanna go afterand to feel like if they go after
it and they communicate it and theydon't get it, at least they asked.
Right.
They didn't wonder.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (08:39):
Yeah.
You know, thank you for those examplesof maybe you help them draft the email,
but the email should come from them, oryou have this role play discussion, but
they're the ones having the discussion.
Because I think that sometimes feelslike a murky gray area for me, where
I know I want my kid to do something,but I might have to hold their hand in
(09:01):
this process, and it's okay to do that.
Cynthia Muchnick (09:03):
What I would also add is, I'm a big fan
of old school index cards.
I think that you can sit down withyour kids and when they go talk to
their teachers, sometimes they getnervous or they feel like this is a,
you know, this is a powerful personthat I'm going to ask something of.
Well, you can put down a couple bulletpoints on the index cards that they write
themselves and they can bring that intotheir meeting and say, I didn't wanna
(09:26):
forget, so I wrote some things down.
And make sure before you leave, you'vesaid the things on your index card so you
can feel heard, and such a simple tool.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (09:35):
Yeah.
And I do the same thing whenI need to remember something.
I always write it down and I'mstaring at my notebook before
I'm talking in a meeting on Zoom.
So why not give them that same tool as away to help make sure they feel heard,
because ultimately that's what we wantand what they will feel most proud of.
Cynthia Muchnick (09:52):
Definitely.
And you know it when youmentioned I do that too.
That's the other piece is the modeling.
So I think we all know, you know, modelinggood technology habits, modeling good
listening skills, my co-author, has abackground in social work and so she
has taught me a lot about good questionasking and good listening, and we have
a whole chapter dedicated to that andthe parent compass that will really
(10:14):
help parents ask open-ended questions.
If they're kids when they get home fromschool, it's usually how is your day?
And you get this almostnothing for an answer.
You get an eye roll or a one
sentence if you're lucky,or a grunt, a grunt, a good.
So we, um, we consulted,um, question experts
And we distilled them down to about 40or 50 good, you know, different kinds
(10:35):
of questions to ask our kids so thatwe can learn more about them and, , to
have them kind of take the lead.
So anyway,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (10:42):
that now.
So we've touched on kind of waysand at what age we can lean into
giving up control of the wheel andletting our kids step into place.
And I, I find myself sometimessecond guessing, am I doing too much?
Am I doing too little?
Should I be more involved?
how do you know if you're being ahelicopter parent or being a tiger mom?
(11:05):
, do you have any thoughts on that?
Cynthia Muchnick (11:07):
You know, so we explore this, you know, in
the first chapter of our book.
And something that you mentioned was,questioning yourself and wondering,
is it too much, is it too little?
And we all bring to our parentinglenses, our own personal histories.
So when we look back at the way we wereraised, and what your parents' involvement
or not involvement was, or their style orthe way that they viewed education or what
(11:32):
your own education background was and whatyou wish for for your kids, et cetera.
, we finished writing the parentCompass and we realized in really
important chapter was missing, whichwe call basically, I think you, you
have to look backward in order to
look forward, or something likethat, where we asked the readers
to do this questionnaire, uh,
Whoever is parenting the kidsshould try to do this questionnaire.
(11:54):
And it really goes through you doinga self-examination of your lens
of what you're bringing and thebaggage you bring as the parent.
And then trying to apply thoseperspectives to the best ways
that you can parent your teen.
And as we know, they're each different.
So there is one page of our bookdedicated to teens, and this
page is a questionnaire for them.
(12:14):
And I encourage parents, and I've hadgreat success in the feedback we've
heard to tell their teen, uh, find theright moment usually involves food.
And, uh, no technology distracting you.
But to find the right moment and tellyour kid, I wanna be a better mom or
dad to you, I know I'm not perfect.
(12:34):
And in order to do that,I need a favor from you.
I just need five minutes of your timeto go through this questionnaire.
You can, you can answer it out loud to me.
You can jot down the notes on your phone,but if you answer these questions and
I've answered my own questions, it's goingto give us a springboard to move forward
and for me to be a better parent to you.
And when your kids hear youadmitting, you're not perfect.
(12:57):
You're trying to do better.
You want to improve so that you canhave a a better relationship and a
more positive interaction with them.
It really kind of equalizes thingsa bit more and puts you more
shoulder to shoulder with your kids.
And so, I know I've gone a littlebit off the rambling, but how do
you know when you're that parent?
I mean, I.
You, you feel it from the other parentsaround you almost, you know, the way that
(13:18):
you're kind of perceived or looked at.
You also feel it from your teens sayinglike, mom, like enough, settle down, or,
this is embarrassing, or that whole thing.
And I think the way you have to knowis just kind of by the self-restraint.
That you may need to show, butjust be a positive for your kid in
their school community or neutral.
Just don't be the negative.
. So, you know, it's also okay toapologize because we all make mistakes.
(13:39):
So if we've gone too far, wecan apologize to our kids.
We can apologize to a teacher, God forbid,if we have to, or an administrator.
Um, and we never wanna likejump over the teacher, right?
So there's this typical thinglike, I'm so mad, I'm gonna go
talk to the administrator ortell the principal or whatever.
You know, we have to sort of let ourkids first navigate things through their
teacher and through their departmentand whatever the issue might be, and.
(14:03):
You know, through the school counselorand then find out if there is a way
that you need to be involved as a parent.
And in that case then you talk tothe teacher and then maybe it's
going to the administrator next.
. But we live and learn as we go throughthis, and none of us are perfect at this.
And it is constantly a, you know, atoilet flush of trying to start over.
Right.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:21):
Right.
And with every kid it can feel different,you know, with some kids that have a
harder time advocating for themselves,maybe it's maybe that, of shift of
control into their space feels a littlelater or a little more tenuous, whereas
there might be, I, I, you know, and thenone of my kids is is very much like,
she's already, written emails to herteachers concerned about this or, of
(14:43):
sharing her thoughts on, when thingsdon't feel right or areas for improvement.
Then I have another daughter that isvery sensitive and empathetic, so is
probably more inclined to give someonethe benefit of the doubt uh, you know,
might need a little nudge to say, no,you can feel comfortable asking for this.
It's okay to You know,want more or want a change
Cynthia Muchnick (15:03):
And you know, I found, um, in having more than one kid
that they learn from each other too.
You know, and, and ironically like thepeer support from siblings or from,
you know, the way they model aftertheir peers is way more powerful in
some ways than the parenting support.
I mean, there's nothing that makesme feel more full as a parent
than hearing my daughter call hercollege brother for help in math.
(15:24):
And there is that sense of, notjust the help, but the way that they
can support each other, that doesn'tinvolve the parent, you know, poking in
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Right, right, right. (15:32):
undefined
Um, I wanna go back to something thatI just love that you mentioned, which
is this idea of, assessing ourselvesas parents giving our kids that ability
to, stand up for their thoughts andtheir opinions and knowing that they'll
be heard in this really valid way.
Not only are modeling your opennessto this, which they then can
(15:52):
take further on in their lives.
If they're parenting, they're gonnasee that as permission to do that
themselves when they have their own kids.
But also, um, you're also modelingthat willingness to change.
I, I love that.
Cynthia Muchnick (16:04):
Like getting like a parent feedback form, huh?
A little bit like at the endof, at the end of the course you
write your assessment , you know,
.But yeah, it's complicated, right?
I mean, parenting is so emotional.
It's 24 7.
It never, you know, ends evenwhen they're out of your home.
And, you know, what happened toour kind of world over the last.
(16:25):
I don't know, 10 or 20 years has becomethis like competition between parents,
which there's actually a term competitiveparenting, um, if you can believe it.
And this sense that like our kidsare these sort of trophies and these
direct reflections on who we are.
And honestly, I tell parents a lot.
Um, we had our turn to be teenagersand we did with it what we did
(16:47):
with it, and now it's their turn.
So the best thing I think wereally can do is just support them
in what it is that excites them,what it is that interests them.
And um, At some point your kidsare gonna express to you like, I
don't really wanna do this anymore,or, can I try something else?
And some kids justwanna sample everything.
They just wanna try and try and try andmay never settle on their one thing.
(17:10):
And, um, we've become a world of,like perfectionism and starting one
activity early in putting in your10,000 hours and, you know, never,
you know, leaving that activity.
And we, tell a story in our book.
A boy that, um, I met while ona family tour bus, a couple
of years ago with my kids.
And he was an only child traveling alonewith his parents and about the age of
(17:30):
my teenage boys, um, high school age.
And we started talking and I said,you know, what, kinds of activities
do you like to do after school?
And he said, well, I, I've, I'm alwaysdone diving, but I really want to quit.
And the parents kind of turnedred and they're like, well, he
doesn't really mean that He onlyhas one more year before college.
And, and, um, he kind of turned redand he is like, well, no, mom and
(17:52):
dad, I've always wanted to quit.
You just won't let me quit.
And it became this like,sort of argument that we were
observing as this other family.
So I said to him, oh, whatkinds of other things.
Would you do insteador would you wanna do?
And he said, well, I mean, I'd liketo go to the prom for one thing.
I'd like to write an articlefor my school newspaper.
I'd like to do some photography.
And suddenly it became this reallyawkward conversation, you know, the
(18:16):
parents were like, well, you know,you've gotta do this for college.
And he's like, yeah, I don't evenwanna dive in college anymore.
and so anyway, it became this.
Crazy sort of catalyst for a very deepconversation between me and my kids.
Cuz when we left that bus ride, I saidto them, I said, are any of you guys
doing things that you really don'twanna be doing anymore, because life
is too short and you do not have todo anything for us or to please us?
(18:37):
You know?
And it was just so interesting theway they observed it, that there were
these parents kind of quote, forcingtheir kid to see through this activity.
And I just think it's so hard for usto let go because we invest in the
sidelines and in the driving and inthe equipment and in the coaching and
all those things that we'd make itmore about us and less about them.
And that's kind of the shift where.
(18:59):
You know, by the time they get tocollege , um, we have to sort of
have given them these tools thatthey can take forward and, and let
them do the things that they enjoy.
And our job is really, I think, to supportthat as best we can or are able to do.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (19:14):
yeah.
And.
I love it.
No, no Well, something that came upfor you, me as you were talking too,
is if parents have a tendency to wantto get really involved, they may be
inadvertently squelching their intuitionYou know, so their, their kid might
lose sight of what's important to them.
What really are their values?
Whether they like somethingbecause other people like, like
(19:37):
them more when they do it, or dothey really intrinsically like it?
I, I feel like I had to work throughthat on a couple activities where
I thought, I've been doing thisfor how long, or I'm pursuing this,
do I really want this anymore?
Or did I really even wantit in the first place?
And you kind of wonder, why did I want it?
(19:57):
Where did those messages come from?
Cynthia Muchnick (19:59):
To what end?
To what end.
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (20:02):
it sounds like you're really encouraging parents
to steer clear of behavior that mightderail your kids from being able
to identify for themselves what'simportant, what's true, what's authentic.
Um, because at the end of the day,that's, that's going to be the
thing that makes them the happiest.
Cynthia Muchnick (20:18):
Yeah, you just, you just put all the words together,
which is a quote right from our book,which says, appreciate the child you
have in front of you, not the one youare trying to inauthentically create.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (20:30):
Ugh,
Cynthia Muchnick (20:31):
So appreciate that kid in whatever their things are
as as different as they may be fromeverything you've ever envisioned for
them or that you know anything about.
Right.
And then, Support them throughthat and let them know that,
you know, you support that.
And if they change theirmind, you'll support that too
(20:51):
and that you're there for thembecause, um, a Wise podcast
interviewer, a psychologist named Dr.
Dan Peters once told us that once yourkids leave your home, the only thing you
have left behind is the relationship.
that you have with them.
And if you don't kind of work at thatfoundation in the years that they're
with you, and the way that you do that isyou, you know, get shoulder to shoulder
(21:15):
and you sup show them that you careand you're willing to change and you're
trying your best and you know, you supporttheir interests and you are there for the
setbacks and failures to, you know, Letthem cry through it or hug 'em through
it or whatever it might be, but not tofix it and manipulate it and manage it.
(21:36):
because again, once your kids leaveyour home, the only thing you have
left behind is the relationship.
that you have with them.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (21:48):
Whew.
That last quote really struck me.
I'm so grateful for the reminder thatthe goal, when we're raising kids.
Isn't to check off all of.
These boxes of.
What society or cultural expectationsor what have you kind of are telling
us we should prioritize and want it.
Really is to show up for our kidsauthentically and with vulnerability,
(22:12):
to raise a reasonably healthyand happy human and love them as
hard as we can just as they are.
So here are today's key takeawaysfrom my conversation with Cindy.
Number one, we as parents need tobe better at checking ourselves and
making sure that the messages and theways that we're parenting our kids.
Are setting them up for apositive life experience.
(22:35):
Number two.
If we tiger and helicopter and getover involved in our kids' lives.
We're doing a disservice to our kids.
It may come from a place of love.
But we're taking awayopportunities for them to grow.
And we're making it harder forthem to trust their intuition.
And know what they truly want.
Because we override theirdesires and opinions with ours.
(22:57):
Number three.
Self-advocacy is one of the greatestgifts you can give your kids.
Because it gives them a toolto go after what they want.
You can help by say looking over theiremail or role-playing a conversation or
suggesting that they use index cards.
So they can make sure they sayeverything they want, but around
middle school, they should be theones having the talk or hitting send.
(23:19):
And by high school, we wantthem to be able to advocate for
themselves in day to day situations.
At school.
Number four, ask your kids forfeedback on your parenting.
You can say.
I want to be a better mom to you.
I know I'm not perfect.
And I'd love to hear your thoughts.
You can use a questionnairein the parent compass.
If you'd like some structure andguidance, it can be a dynamic
(23:41):
and powerful experience becauseyou're showing your kids.
That you're open to growth andthat their opinions matter.
Number five, you have to lookbackward to look forward.
Do a self.
Examination of what insights and baggageyou're bringing to the parenting table.
And.
Be ready to shift and changeSo you aren't passing along
Anything that you don't want to
(24:01):
Number six.
Appreciate the child you have infront of you, not the one you are
trying to inauthentically create.
Our job is to support our kidsand their interests as best we
can, no matter how much that mightdiffer from what we'd envisioned.
to learn more about Cindy andher work and to learn more about
the book, the parent compass.
(24:22):
Visit parent compass book.com.
Facebook@facebook.com slash.
The parent compass, or you canfollow her on Instagram at.
Parent compass.
I am so grateful for you listening today.
Um, I know you.
You have a choice on what you listento so I'm eternally grateful if
you haven't done so already with.
(24:42):
The love of Spotify or apple review.
A follow on Instagram at Novi.
He raised them and do feelfree to check out my website.
At Nobi raised them.com if you'dlike to reach out with topics.
Suggestions comments, et cetera.
That's an easy avenue To do so.
I hope you have a wonderful restof the week And here's to strong
women may we know them may webe them and may we raise them
appreciate the child you have in front of you, not the one
you are trying to inauthentically create.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Welcome to know them. (00:10):
undefined
Be them, raise them a showto help busy, mindful.
Growth oriented moms thatstay informed and inspired.
As they navigate their daughters,crucial tween and teen years.
I'm your host Carmelita two.
So, have you ever made yourkids stick with an activity?
Even if they don't like.
It.
Do you wonder if you're talking too muchon your kids' behalf or maybe not enough?
(00:33):
Do you.
You want your kids to get straight?
A's and secretly.
We get a little thrill.
If they say, I think I wantto go to Stanford or Harvard.
Harvard or Yale.
And then you kind of feel anxiousabout the pressure and tuition.
Well, today's guest Cindy Mutchnick.
Co-wrote a book.
To help us navigate this balance.
And wonkiness.
And calibrate our parentCompass's if you will.
(00:55):
Cindy graduated from Stanforduniversity and is an expert.
Spurt in the college admissions process.
She got her start in admissionsoffices offices at IIT and
the university of Chicago.
Where she screened and reviewedover 3000 applications and
interviewed perspective students.
It's along the way.
She also opened a privatestudy skills practice.
And college counseling business insouthern california which she ran
(01:19):
for over 15 years helping Hundredsof high school students Navigate
their academic journeys, Includingthe dreaded Did college applications.
Since closing her private educationalpractice in 2011, cindy is a professional
speaker and panelist for a varietyof education related topics Ana.
And she's a prolific Brighter.
Her most recent book, the parentcompass navigating your teens
(01:42):
wellness and academic journeyin today's competitive world,
Is her 10th.
And i invited her on to talk about it
So now that you know that she knows herstuff when It comes to teens high school
stress academics College competitivenessEt cetera Here's our conversation
(02:05):
Well, welcome Cindy.
I'm so thrilled to have you.
Cynthia Muchnick (02:08):
Thank you, Kat.
It's great to be here to finally chat with
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (02:11):
Yes.
Well, let's dive right into it.
Uh, you've written a book,called The Parent Compass.
I'd love to hear you tell us in your ownwords, what's the main message behind
this title and how did you come up withthe idea, what does it mean, et cetera.
Cynthia Muchnick (02:26):
Sure.
So, so the parent Compass, thelonger title is Navigating Your
Teens Wellness and Academic Journeyin Today's Competitive World.
And so it's basically, writtenwith kind of two goals in mind.
One, to help preserve the mentalhealth of teens and tweens as they go
through these kind of tricky years.
And also to help preserve the parentteen relationship, which is really what
(02:48):
all you're left with once they've leftthe home and headed off on their own.
And so the idea for the book actuallycame out, um, in early 2019 when the
college admission scandal erupted,also known as Operation Varsity Blues.
And our news headlines were splashedwith parents who had broken the laws
and, um, found a side door into.
(03:08):
The college admissions process andreally, um, cheated their own kids
and cheated themselves, and justbehaved incredibly badly by, um,
you know, falsifying test scores,falsifying student resumes, falsifying
application information, et cetera.
And I called my colleague Jen Curtis,who is now co-author of the Parent
Compass with me, and the two of us justcouldn't believe what we were seeing.
(03:32):
We felt just got punched basically.
We had both been working inprivate college counseling, with
students for many, many years.
So we've always worked with teens and wefelt like some of what we were seeing in
our offices were the results of parentsthat weren't resorting to bribery and
fraud, but were somehow, um, causingsome other damage in their efforts to
(03:56):
support their kids that, you know, werekind of coming from a place of love,
but they were a little bit too involvedand too overbearing in the process.
And we said, you know what?
If we tried to remedy.
You know, not the collegeadmission scandal, but just the
parents behaving badly piece.
And so we wrote originally what we wantedto be an etiquette book, which was a book
to teach parents to kind of behave better.
(04:18):
And then it evolved into thisreal, what we're calling kind
of the parent compass movement.
This idea that we as parents need tobe better at checking ourselves and
making sure that the messages andthe ways that we're parenting our.
Are setting them up for a really positive,you know, experience in their lives.
(04:39):
And because we care so much aboutthem and we love them so fiercely,
we sometimes smother and tiger andhelicopter and, become that parent
that we really don't wanna be.
And in doing so, we are creatingkids that are cannot self-advocate,
that are fragile, that can't maketheir own appointments, that can't
(05:01):
speak for themselves, that are reallyfeeling like they're being paraded
around as their parents' trophy.
And I think that's not reallywhat we want, but somehow this
behavior is, you know, peteringdown and, affecting our kids.
So we wanna kind of help thisgeneration of tweens and teens by
teaching parents to do things a littlebit better and a little differently.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (05:20):
One of the things you mentioned, Advocacy
and, and children's needing tobe advocates for themselves.
Can you talk a little moreabout that and, you know, how
do we go about teaching that?
Cynthia Muchnick (05:31):
Absolutely.
So it's such a good question, Kat.
You know, self-advocacy, I knowyou have girls in middle school.
Self-advocacy can start even younger.
Self-advocacy can begin when we let ourkids struggle as they tie their shoes.
And, um, when we go to a restaurant, um,having them order for themselves, or ask
(05:52):
for their own refill of a glass of water.
Or when you take them to the doctor,letting them say their age and
their birthday and what's wrong.
But, um, when you go into tweensand teens, the self-advocacy piece
really becomes more how kids cancommunicate with other adults that are
not you other adults in their lives.
(06:12):
The teachers, the coaches, um, Whoeverit is in their life that's involved
in some way, it has to start to becomethe child's voice in communicating.
So when your kid comes home from practiceand says, oh, it was awful and this and
that, and this wasn't fair, insteadof picking up the phone and calling the
coach, you can say, wow, you know, itsounds like you're really frustrated.
(06:34):
You know, how do you think that couldlook different or what, what might
we be able to do or what might yoube able to do to, to change that?
And sometimes they just wanna vent and getthings out and not have a solution or a
solution presented because the last thingwe wanna do is fix everything for them.
Which is another hard thing cuz thatgoes with the self-advocacy piece.
When we are looking to fix,we're doing that from a place of
(06:57):
love, but we're taking away theiropportunity to figure it out.
So the self-advocacy piece I think comesin the most clearly when, for example, in
middle school, they start to have certainissues with teachers perhaps, and maybe
they felt like something wasn't fair.
Or maybe their seat is in the back of theroom and they wanna move up closer cause
(07:17):
they're having trouble seeing the board.
It's not up to you to send the emailas the parent, it's up to you maybe to
role play with your kid or say, how canyou communicate that with your teacher?
Um, do you wanna send them an emailor be better to ask in person and then
you can practice that together or youcan help them in a light way, draft an
email, but it should come from them.
(07:38):
And when you start to plant thoseseeds of self-advocacy where they
feel empowered to be the one to talkto their teachers and to talk to the
adults in their lives, then by the timethey get to high school, you should
really be really out of the picture.
In that communication.
In middle school, you're still goingto parent-teacher conferences and
you're still a little more involved.
And obviously if there'simpropriety or something very
(07:58):
extreme, you have to be involved.
But we're talking aboutday-to-day situations.
Your kid gets a bad grade, your kid,you know, gets in an argument with a
friend at school, whatever the thingsare that they can go to the school
counselor, they can go to the teacher.
Um, that should be the first line ofdefense and you can help equip them to
do that by allowing them to do that.
(08:18):
And so I think parents need to kindof learn to zip their lips a little
more and restrain themselves so thattheir kids can be the ones who speak.
And that's self-advocacy.
It's one of the greatest gifts youcan give your kids because it equips
them to know what they wanna go afterand to feel like if they go after
it and they communicate it and theydon't get it, at least they asked.
Right.
They didn't wonder.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (08:39):
Yeah.
You know, thank you for those examplesof maybe you help them draft the email,
but the email should come from them, oryou have this role play discussion, but
they're the ones having the discussion.
Because I think that sometimes feelslike a murky gray area for me, where
I know I want my kid to do something,but I might have to hold their hand in
(09:01):
this process, and it's okay to do that.
Cynthia Muchnick (09:03):
What I would also add is, I'm a big fan
of old school index cards.
I think that you can sit down withyour kids and when they go talk to
their teachers, sometimes they getnervous or they feel like this is a,
you know, this is a powerful personthat I'm going to ask something of.
Well, you can put down a couple bulletpoints on the index cards that they write
themselves and they can bring that intotheir meeting and say, I didn't wanna
(09:26):
forget, so I wrote some things down.
And make sure before you leave, you'vesaid the things on your index card so you
can feel heard, and such a simple tool.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (09:35):
Yeah.
And I do the same thing whenI need to remember something.
I always write it down and I'mstaring at my notebook before
I'm talking in a meeting on Zoom.
So why not give them that same tool as away to help make sure they feel heard,
because ultimately that's what we wantand what they will feel most proud of.
Cynthia Muchnick (09:52):
Definitely.
And you know it when youmentioned I do that too.
That's the other piece is the modeling.
So I think we all know, you know, modelinggood technology habits, modeling good
listening skills, my co-author, has abackground in social work and so she
has taught me a lot about good questionasking and good listening, and we have
a whole chapter dedicated to that andthe parent compass that will really
(10:14):
help parents ask open-ended questions.
If they're kids when they get home fromschool, it's usually how is your day?
And you get this almostnothing for an answer.
You get an eye roll or a one
sentence if you're lucky,or a grunt, a grunt, a good.
So we, um, we consulted,um, question experts
And we distilled them down to about 40or 50 good, you know, different kinds
(10:35):
of questions to ask our kids so thatwe can learn more about them and, , to
have them kind of take the lead.
So anyway,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (10:42):
that now.
So we've touched on kind of waysand at what age we can lean into
giving up control of the wheel andletting our kids step into place.
And I, I find myself sometimessecond guessing, am I doing too much?
Am I doing too little?
Should I be more involved?
how do you know if you're being ahelicopter parent or being a tiger mom?
(11:05):
, do you have any thoughts on that?
Cynthia Muchnick (11:07):
You know, so we explore this, you know, in
the first chapter of our book.
And something that you mentioned was,questioning yourself and wondering,
is it too much, is it too little?
And we all bring to our parentinglenses, our own personal histories.
So when we look back at the way we wereraised, and what your parents' involvement
or not involvement was, or their style orthe way that they viewed education or what
(11:32):
your own education background was and whatyou wish for for your kids, et cetera.
, we finished writing the parentCompass and we realized in really
important chapter was missing, whichwe call basically, I think you, you
have to look backward in order to
look forward, or something likethat, where we asked the readers
to do this questionnaire, uh,
Whoever is parenting the kidsshould try to do this questionnaire.
(11:54):
And it really goes through you doinga self-examination of your lens
of what you're bringing and thebaggage you bring as the parent.
And then trying to apply thoseperspectives to the best ways
that you can parent your teen.
And as we know, they're each different.
So there is one page of our bookdedicated to teens, and this
page is a questionnaire for them.
(12:14):
And I encourage parents, and I've hadgreat success in the feedback we've
heard to tell their teen, uh, find theright moment usually involves food.
And, uh, no technology distracting you.
But to find the right moment and tellyour kid, I wanna be a better mom or
dad to you, I know I'm not perfect.
(12:34):
And in order to do that,I need a favor from you.
I just need five minutes of your timeto go through this questionnaire.
You can, you can answer it out loud to me.
You can jot down the notes on your phone,but if you answer these questions and
I've answered my own questions, it's goingto give us a springboard to move forward
and for me to be a better parent to you.
And when your kids hear youadmitting, you're not perfect.
(12:57):
You're trying to do better.
You want to improve so that you canhave a a better relationship and a
more positive interaction with them.
It really kind of equalizes thingsa bit more and puts you more
shoulder to shoulder with your kids.
And so, I know I've gone a littlebit off the rambling, but how do
you know when you're that parent?
I mean, I.
You, you feel it from the other parentsaround you almost, you know, the way that
(13:18):
you're kind of perceived or looked at.
You also feel it from your teens sayinglike, mom, like enough, settle down, or,
this is embarrassing, or that whole thing.
And I think the way you have to knowis just kind of by the self-restraint.
That you may need to show, butjust be a positive for your kid in
their school community or neutral.
Just don't be the negative.
. So, you know, it's also okay toapologize because we all make mistakes.
(13:39):
So if we've gone too far, wecan apologize to our kids.
We can apologize to a teacher, God forbid,if we have to, or an administrator.
Um, and we never wanna likejump over the teacher, right?
So there's this typical thinglike, I'm so mad, I'm gonna go
talk to the administrator ortell the principal or whatever.
You know, we have to sort of let ourkids first navigate things through their
teacher and through their departmentand whatever the issue might be, and.
(14:03):
You know, through the school counselorand then find out if there is a way
that you need to be involved as a parent.
And in that case then you talk tothe teacher and then maybe it's
going to the administrator next.
. But we live and learn as we go throughthis, and none of us are perfect at this.
And it is constantly a, you know, atoilet flush of trying to start over.
Right.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (14:21):
Right.
And with every kid it can feel different,you know, with some kids that have a
harder time advocating for themselves,maybe it's maybe that, of shift of
control into their space feels a littlelater or a little more tenuous, whereas
there might be, I, I, you know, and thenone of my kids is is very much like,
she's already, written emails to herteachers concerned about this or, of
(14:43):
sharing her thoughts on, when thingsdon't feel right or areas for improvement.
Then I have another daughter that isvery sensitive and empathetic, so is
probably more inclined to give someonethe benefit of the doubt uh, you know,
might need a little nudge to say, no,you can feel comfortable asking for this.
It's okay to You know,want more or want a change
Cynthia Muchnick (15:03):
And you know, I found, um, in having more than one kid
that they learn from each other too.
You know, and, and ironically like thepeer support from siblings or from,
you know, the way they model aftertheir peers is way more powerful in
some ways than the parenting support.
I mean, there's nothing that makesme feel more full as a parent
than hearing my daughter call hercollege brother for help in math.
(15:24):
And there is that sense of, notjust the help, but the way that they
can support each other, that doesn'tinvolve the parent, you know, poking in
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Right, right, right. (15:32):
undefined
Um, I wanna go back to something thatI just love that you mentioned, which
is this idea of, assessing ourselvesas parents giving our kids that ability
to, stand up for their thoughts andtheir opinions and knowing that they'll
be heard in this really valid way.
Not only are modeling your opennessto this, which they then can
(15:52):
take further on in their lives.
If they're parenting, they're gonnasee that as permission to do that
themselves when they have their own kids.
But also, um, you're also modelingthat willingness to change.
I, I love that.
Cynthia Muchnick (16:04):
Like getting like a parent feedback form, huh?
A little bit like at the endof, at the end of the course you
write your assessment , you know,
.But yeah, it's complicated, right?
I mean, parenting is so emotional.
It's 24 7.
It never, you know, ends evenwhen they're out of your home.
And, you know, what happened toour kind of world over the last.
(16:25):
I don't know, 10 or 20 years has becomethis like competition between parents,
which there's actually a term competitiveparenting, um, if you can believe it.
And this sense that like our kidsare these sort of trophies and these
direct reflections on who we are.
And honestly, I tell parents a lot.
Um, we had our turn to be teenagersand we did with it what we did
(16:47):
with it, and now it's their turn.
So the best thing I think wereally can do is just support them
in what it is that excites them,what it is that interests them.
And um, At some point your kidsare gonna express to you like, I
don't really wanna do this anymore,or, can I try something else?
And some kids justwanna sample everything.
They just wanna try and try and try andmay never settle on their one thing.
(17:10):
And, um, we've become a world of,like perfectionism and starting one
activity early in putting in your10,000 hours and, you know, never,
you know, leaving that activity.
And we, tell a story in our book.
A boy that, um, I met while ona family tour bus, a couple
of years ago with my kids.
And he was an only child traveling alonewith his parents and about the age of
(17:30):
my teenage boys, um, high school age.
And we started talking and I said,you know, what, kinds of activities
do you like to do after school?
And he said, well, I, I've, I'm alwaysdone diving, but I really want to quit.
And the parents kind of turnedred and they're like, well, he
doesn't really mean that He onlyhas one more year before college.
And, and, um, he kind of turned redand he is like, well, no, mom and
(17:52):
dad, I've always wanted to quit.
You just won't let me quit.
And it became this like,sort of argument that we were
observing as this other family.
So I said to him, oh, whatkinds of other things.
Would you do insteador would you wanna do?
And he said, well, I mean, I'd liketo go to the prom for one thing.
I'd like to write an articlefor my school newspaper.
I'd like to do some photography.
And suddenly it became this reallyawkward conversation, you know, the
(18:16):
parents were like, well, you know,you've gotta do this for college.
And he's like, yeah, I don't evenwanna dive in college anymore.
and so anyway, it became this.
Crazy sort of catalyst for a very deepconversation between me and my kids.
Cuz when we left that bus ride, I saidto them, I said, are any of you guys
doing things that you really don'twanna be doing anymore, because life
is too short and you do not have todo anything for us or to please us?
(18:37):
You know?
And it was just so interesting theway they observed it, that there were
these parents kind of quote, forcingtheir kid to see through this activity.
And I just think it's so hard for usto let go because we invest in the
sidelines and in the driving and inthe equipment and in the coaching and
all those things that we'd make itmore about us and less about them.
And that's kind of the shift where.
(18:59):
You know, by the time they get tocollege , um, we have to sort of
have given them these tools thatthey can take forward and, and let
them do the things that they enjoy.
And our job is really, I think, to supportthat as best we can or are able to do.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (19:14):
yeah.
And.
I love it.
No, no Well, something that came upfor you, me as you were talking too,
is if parents have a tendency to wantto get really involved, they may be
inadvertently squelching their intuitionYou know, so their, their kid might
lose sight of what's important to them.
What really are their values?
Whether they like somethingbecause other people like, like
(19:37):
them more when they do it, or dothey really intrinsically like it?
I, I feel like I had to work throughthat on a couple activities where
I thought, I've been doing thisfor how long, or I'm pursuing this,
do I really want this anymore?
Or did I really even wantit in the first place?
And you kind of wonder, why did I want it?
(19:57):
Where did those messages come from?
Cynthia Muchnick (19:59):
To what end?
To what end.
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (20:02):
it sounds like you're really encouraging parents
to steer clear of behavior that mightderail your kids from being able
to identify for themselves what'simportant, what's true, what's authentic.
Um, because at the end of the day,that's, that's going to be the
thing that makes them the happiest.
Cynthia Muchnick (20:18):
Yeah, you just, you just put all the words together,
which is a quote right from our book,which says, appreciate the child you
have in front of you, not the one youare trying to inauthentically create.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (20:30):
Ugh,
Cynthia Muchnick (20:31):
So appreciate that kid in whatever their things are
as as different as they may be fromeverything you've ever envisioned for
them or that you know anything about.
Right.
And then, Support them throughthat and let them know that,
you know, you support that.
And if they change theirmind, you'll support that too
(20:51):
and that you're there for thembecause, um, a Wise podcast
interviewer, a psychologist named Dr.
Dan Peters once told us that once yourkids leave your home, the only thing you
have left behind is the relationship.
that you have with them.
And if you don't kind of work at thatfoundation in the years that they're
with you, and the way that you do that isyou, you know, get shoulder to shoulder
(21:15):
and you sup show them that you careand you're willing to change and you're
trying your best and you know, you supporttheir interests and you are there for the
setbacks and failures to, you know, Letthem cry through it or hug 'em through
it or whatever it might be, but not tofix it and manipulate it and manage it.
(21:36):
because again, once your kids leaveyour home, the only thing you have
left behind is the relationship.
that you have with them.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (21:48):
Whew.
That last quote really struck me.
I'm so grateful for the reminder thatthe goal, when we're raising kids.
Isn't to check off all of.
These boxes of.
What society or cultural expectationsor what have you kind of are telling
us we should prioritize and want it.
Really is to show up for our kidsauthentically and with vulnerability,
(22:12):
to raise a reasonably healthyand happy human and love them as
hard as we can just as they are.
So here are today's key takeawaysfrom my conversation with Cindy.
Number one, we as parents need tobe better at checking ourselves and
making sure that the messages and theways that we're parenting our kids.
Are setting them up for apositive life experience.
(22:35):
Number two.
If we tiger and helicopter and getover involved in our kids' lives.
We're doing a disservice to our kids.
It may come from a place of love.
But we're taking awayopportunities for them to grow.
And we're making it harder forthem to trust their intuition.
And know what they truly want.
Because we override theirdesires and opinions with ours.
(22:57):
Number three.
Self-advocacy is one of the greatestgifts you can give your kids.
Because it gives them a toolto go after what they want.
You can help by say looking over theiremail or role-playing a conversation or
suggesting that they use index cards.
So they can make sure they sayeverything they want, but around
middle school, they should be theones having the talk or hitting send.
(23:19):
And by high school, we wantthem to be able to advocate for
themselves in day to day situations.
At school.
Number four, ask your kids forfeedback on your parenting.
You can say.
I want to be a better mom to you.
I know I'm not perfect.
And I'd love to hear your thoughts.
You can use a questionnairein the parent compass.
If you'd like some structure andguidance, it can be a dynamic
(23:41):
and powerful experience becauseyou're showing your kids.
That you're open to growth andthat their opinions matter.
Number five, you have to lookbackward to look forward.
Do a self.
Examination of what insights and baggageyou're bringing to the parenting table.
And.
Be ready to shift and changeSo you aren't passing along
Anything that you don't want to
(24:01):
Number six.
Appreciate the child you have infront of you, not the one you are
trying to inauthentically create.
Our job is to support our kidsand their interests as best we
can, no matter how much that mightdiffer from what we'd envisioned.
to learn more about Cindy andher work and to learn more about
the book, the parent compass.
(24:22):
Visit parent compass book.com.
Facebook@facebook.com slash.
The parent compass, or you canfollow her on Instagram at.
Parent compass.
I am so grateful for you listening today.
Um, I know you.
You have a choice on what you listento so I'm eternally grateful if
you haven't done so already with.
(24:42):
The love of Spotify or apple review.
A follow on Instagram at Novi.
He raised them and do feelfree to check out my website.
At Nobi raised them.com if you'dlike to reach out with topics.
Suggestions comments, et cetera.
That's an easy avenue To do so.
I hope you have a wonderful restof the week And here's to strong
women may we know them may webe them and may we raise them
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